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 Ninjacommando wrote:
so 54 ppm for TH/SS terminators? ehh noo if you want terminators to be a viable army list their overall cost needs to be kept low.

34 ppm free weapon upgrades and still charging them for heavy weapons is fine

I appologize, I meant 10 points for TH/SS to bring them back up to what a current Terminator costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realized during a test run of the latest iteration of the rules we have been discussing, that I did not include one other piece of addition that we were using for Deathwing. The piece of "Army Wargear" called an Orbital Beacon. Basically the fluff is that if there are not Ravenwing around to home in on, the cruiser in orbit will shoot a special round that contains a type of broad spectrum homing beacon for the cruisers teleportarium to lock onto for more accurate delivery of Deathwing.

Orbital Beacon (50 points)
Only one Orbital Beacon may be taken per primary detachment. Units in Terminator Armor arriving via Deathwing Assault within 12" of an Orbital Beacon only scatter 1d6. After forces have been deployed including infiltrators but before scout moved, place a suitable counter on the tabletop and roll for scatter. If a "Hit" is rolled, the Orbital Beacon still scatters the full 2d6 in the direction noted on the "Hit" symbol on the scatter die. Any unit that suffers a Deep Strike Mishap while attempting to land within the area of effect from the Orbital Beacon may choose to suffer a "Delayed" result instead of rolling on the Deep Strike Mishap table.

I like it, sounds fun and it needs that boost. I think peoples main gripe is they are afraid of change and because its not their army, also from certain comments people did not read your entire original post. If the termies were that good in any dark angels build then yes that can be op. But being strictly deathwing with no black or green like you first started, i feel they need this boost. I do not think it makes sense for them to be able to take a heavy bolter, multi melta, or an auto cannon though. Las cannon and grav Cannons are iffy to but i think would look cool :p.

I would totally allow them to have 2 special weapons per 5. Assault cannons, plasma cannons, heavy flamers, and deathwing missile launchers! Deathwing need to have plasma cannons dark angels are the epitome of them.

Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.

Okay, so: Remove Termy's power fists, drop them by 10pts and have it as an upgrade, just give them power weapons for christ sake. Then, give them another 10pt upgrade which ups the strength of their Storm Bolters by 1. (Must be upgraded with power fists to take TH+SS)
Deathwing Knights: *WARNING, DO NOT HAVE TO BE TAKEN IN A LAND RAIDER, ARE TOUGHNESS 5 WITH A 2+ AND A 3++* An amazing unit, with amazing power mauls which do not strike last. Nothing wrong with these guys.
Command Squad: Acts as a fantastic Deathstar, same as the regular termys, give them power weapons at -10pts and +1S on their SBs at 10pts. 2 special weapons per squad. (Must be upgraded with power fists to take TH+SS)
Belial: Also nothing wrong with this guy, give him a Thunder Hammer and Storm shield, put him in a squad of TH+SS Termys and you're golden.
Other ideas being bandied around: -10pts on all units. No, 27pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic.
2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..
TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.
Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.
Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.

Let me look at this one by one.

just give them power weapons for christ sake

great idea, so treat un-PF-ed termies as wielding power mauls. Only issue here is besides the turbocharging, that is the Knights job...

Then, give them another 10 pt upgrade which ups the strength on their Storm Bolter by 1

so you want me to pay 10 pts for a slower firing, and worse AP Heavy Bolter... A normal squad of 3+ tacticals can take an HB for 10 points, yes we get the TL first turn and it could be on every guy. However the major point of this whole thing is getting more models on the field or making them better for the points, I would rather buy 1/4 of a new termy than take a 10 pt S+1 to my SB personally.

must be upgraded with power to take TH/SS

can't we just add the cost of the PF into the TH/SS instead, otherwise they take an upgrade just to replace it with another upgrade which seems silly to me.

Deathwing Knights: Agreed
Command Squad: Agreed, and you are saying that 2 specials per 5 in a squad for everyone right? not just command squads?
Belial: I always thought that he should be able to take a special weapon, you know with his 5+ precise shot and all... seems like a great place to put an assault cannon replacing his SB! But that is entirely for a different discussion about how GW thinks the best way for people to hurt other people 40,000 years in the future is to walk up and hit them with a really cool sword sometimes the shooty guys just shoots them and move on...

-10 pts on all units, No, 27 pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic

When i was stating 10 pts per model it was in reference to taking away their PF, sorry if anyone got confused there.

2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..

I can't tell if you are in favor of this idea or against it. Personally I would rather keep the 1/5 rule, lower points through the PF deduction, get more bodies and allow more special weapons to fill the cracks. But the ability to pack a few DOZEN assault cannons into a list is an entertaining thought

TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.

I totally agree, mixing and matching opens the door to everyone having 3++ with or without a TH. Although possible through modeling/converting, it is not "Codex Compliant"

Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.

I would like Terminators to have something of their own, after all they are the 1st company. Borrowing what is often considered the "real" Ravenwing banner isn't special to me...

Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.

There have been a few different ways that "combi" has been talked about. One was to get "combi-plas/melta/flamer" storm bolters, and the other was the legal term of combi bolter (S4,AP5,24", Rapid fire, Twin Linked). It would be neat to have one shot special weapons, but I am leaning towards no on that. Look to 2/5 heavy weapons to fill the gap instead.

I still really want the MM to be a Terminator heavy weapon. Without it there is no real tank hunter in the ranged weapons. I am not sure how to remedy this without just handing them melta... Maybe let the Sarges take the fancy combi-melta stormbolter thingy? Would you stick the melta barrel underneath? On top? Wrist mounted Bobba Fett style? My meta has a decent amount of tanks still so I may be jaded in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.

ohh, yeah, rules reading skills failed there, my bad!

Thanks for the support! I am kinda surprised at how many people have been against opening up the armory door a little more for heavy weapons. Do you have any specific reasons you can share? Modeling it wouldn't be too hard as logn as you got a hold of a devestator kit

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.

You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?

DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model, and a 50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.

You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?

DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model, and a 50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex.

6 pts would bring them down to 38 points each. that is still really over costed.

34 ppm would be fine with a Storm bolter/powerfist and Free weapon upgrades (the ones i listed last page)
keeping the cost of heavy weapons and making it just 2 from the get go (not 2 per 5)

the storm bolter (via an improved banner) is where most of their killing power should come from
the heavy weapons should be there to take on MC and vehicles

A Cheaper Belial would be better, Along with "If your warlord is wearing Terminator armour, Deathwing terminators may be taken as Troops instead of elite"

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
You're twin linking Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, and CMLs, all of which are garbage heavy weapons. In addition, at 1,500 points you can cram a maximum of 5 into an army. How many heavy weapons are other armies bringing to the table at a similar points level?

This, all of this. The only ranged weapons available to Deathwing Terminators are Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers. Once again, this is why I want to add a few to this list that will plug gaps in the ranged weapons available. Taking 2 per 5 is one solution, being able to take 2 straight away is another way. I think I like the 2 weapons straight out of the gate best.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
DWTs need something to be balanced. A 6 pt discount per model

Dropping the PF to a "maul" as the base CCW and 10 points off a model helps with costs while keeping the GW "standard" points in mind. Any model that had a PF may buy it back for 10 points, putting the cost back where it started in the codex. In the end I see this cheapening up shooty squads by 30 points as they will have 40 points off (not sarge) and then probibly buy back one power fist for 10 points. These 30 points are about what another termie body will cost with the above changes (34 points).

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
50 pt discount on Belial, would be a nice start. Before anyone has a heart attack over this, consider that Belial was 60 points cheaper in the last codex.

ninjacommando wrote:A Cheaper Belial would be better, Along with "If your warlord is wearing Terminator armor, Deathwing terminators may be taken as Troops instead of elite

Both of these are driving at the same point, we have a high "cost of entry" for a full terminator list and besides the ever popular TH/SS Belial, his other options are underwhelming for his points. However TH/SS Terminator DA Captain "from scratch" (175) compared to Belial is only another 15 points for Belial's additional special rules (5+ precise shots, no scatter on DS). Most of this difference is that you pay "double" for the TH because a PF is included in the Terminator upgrade cost and then you pay full price for your TH. Building the same model in the SM codex is much cheaper (150) because of the layout of their terminator wargear list, let alone they can take burning blade/shield eternal if you want to pay 225 for your captain. These prices don't include the "premium" we pay for the Deathwing special rules (4 pts/model on normal guys and apparently 10 pts/model on an IC) but I am dissappointed that they didn't get their terminator wargear layout correct until the SM codex... If we allow any HQ in Terminator Armor to be your only HQ, it doesn't feel Deathwing. Belial = Deathwing IMO. So instead of comming up with an alternative or cheapening him up (he isn't THAT much more expensive for his special rules) lets give him better options so TH/SS isn't the only way we ever see him. For starters, this guy has dedicated the rest of his genetically altered life to hunting down The Fallen, why don't all of his weapons have Bane of the Traitor (When a weapon with this special rules is used to attack a unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the weapon's AP improves by 1 to a maximum of 1)? Lets help a guy out fluff and rules wise by helping him kill the traitors! In his "standard" Sword of Silence/SB, lets replace the SB with Foe Smiter(S4, AP4, 24" range, Assault 3, Master-crafted). For the Lightning Claws, make them S+1 Lightning Claws. Most people will probibly still take TH/SS but at least there are now reasons to take his other forms.

Please let me know what you think about these additional changes. I will put up a summary of what we are currently considering for an all Terminator (no ravenwing or standard troops) Deathwing list for Dark Angels before the end of the day.

holymauler wrote:
Let me look at this one by one.

just give them power weapons for christ sake

great idea, so treat un-PF-ed termies as wielding power mauls. Only issue here is besides the turbocharging, that is the Knights job...

Then, give them another 10 pt upgrade which ups the strength on their Storm Bolter by 1

so you want me to pay 10 pts for a slower firing, and worse AP Heavy Bolter... A normal squad of 3+ tacticals can take an HB for 10 points, yes we get the TL first turn and it could be on every guy. However the major point of this whole thing is getting more models on the field or making them better for the points, I would rather buy 1/4 of a new termy than take a 10 pt S+1 to my SB personally.

must be upgraded with power to take TH/SS

can't we just add the cost of the PF into the TH/SS instead, otherwise they take an upgrade just to replace it with another upgrade which seems silly to me.

Deathwing Knights: Agreed
Command Squad: Agreed, and you are saying that 2 specials per 5 in a squad for everyone right? not just command squads?
Belial: I always thought that he should be able to take a special weapon, you know with his 5+ precise shot and all... seems like a great place to put an assault cannon replacing his SB! But that is entirely for a different discussion about how GW thinks the best way for people to hurt other people 40,000 years in the future is to walk up and hit them with a really cool sword sometimes the shooty guys just shoots them and move on...

-10 pts on all units, No, 27 pts is too low for a terminator. You're paying 14pts up from a tac marine for deep strike, a 2+ save, a power fist, a storm bolter, relentless, inner circle, split fire and the ability to take stuff like CMLs... Pure logic

When i was stating 10 pts per model it was in reference to taking away their PF, sorry if anyone got confused there.

2 special weapons per 5: Squads of 10 Terminators with 4 plasma cannons/heavy flamers/assault cannons/CMLs. Picture this in your mind. A unit that can split fire at vehicles, put out 4-8 blasts per turn etc..

I can't tell if you are in favor of this idea or against it. Personally I would rather keep the 1/5 rule, lower points through the PF deduction, get more bodies and allow more special weapons to fill the cracks. But the ability to pack a few DOZEN assault cannons into a list is an entertaining thought

TH/SS Termys taking special weapons: Just.. Just no. Combined with 2 special weapons per 5 that's 4 heavy flamers charging with 10 TH/SS or worse, 10 pairs of lightning claws with a 2+ save.

I totally agree, mixing and matching opens the door to everyone having 3++ with or without a TH. Although possible through modeling/converting, it is not "Codex Compliant"

Banner: Would be a good idea, and you could probably lower the points if it only applies to terminators due to the low model count.

I would like Terminators to have something of their own, after all they are the 1st company. Borrowing what is often considered the "real" Ravenwing banner isn't special to me...

Combi-bolters: I don't understand how this would work.. Chaos Terminators are the only terminators that take combi-bolters, all you're doing is saying 'I want what Chaos Terminators have which makes them special'. It's the same as Space Marine players wanting Obliterators; GW gave them Centurions. Be careful what you wish for.

There have been a few different ways that "combi" has been talked about. One was to get "combi-plas/melta/flamer" storm bolters, and the other was the legal term of combi bolter (S4,AP5,24", Rapid fire, Twin Linked). It would be neat to have one shot special weapons, but I am leaning towards no on that. Look to 2/5 heavy weapons to fill the gap instead.

I still really want the MM to be a Terminator heavy weapon. Without it there is no real tank hunter in the ranged weapons. I am not sure how to remedy this without just handing them melta... Maybe let the Sarges take the fancy combi-melta stormbolter thingy? Would you stick the melta barrel underneath? On top? Wrist mounted Bobba Fett style? My meta has a decent amount of tanks still so I may be jaded in this regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also people missed that vengeful strike only applies to storm bolters.

ohh, yeah, rules reading skills failed there, my bad!

Thanks for the support! I am kinda surprised at how many people have been against opening up the armory door a little more for heavy weapons. Do you have any specific reasons you can share? Modeling it wouldn't be too hard as logn as you got a hold of a devestator kit

Point 1 in response: Deathwing Knights also get Storm Shields, Wall of Shields etc.. That is what makes them special, not power mauls.
2: Fine then make it 5pts, +1 strength is absolutely worth it, especially considering MEQ is one of the most popular non-meta armies.
3: Yeah, that was just me trying to math at.. Too early xD Agreed with you on that point.
4: Yes 1 special per 5 is what I want in terminators, I'm completely against it. Imagine this: 4 Heavy Flamers in a 10-man squad, full of blokes with power swords charging into a squad of.. Anything infantry. You'll do more damage than lightning claws, and make them completely useless.
5: You can put a dozen assault cannons into a terminator list, you just need 60 terminators, them's the rules. That's like giving Tac marines the ability to take 2 ML/LC/HB..
6: Okay then, make a special character that does this like the Ethereal, a Captain/adaptation of Belial which gives his unit and any Terminator units within 12" Twin-Linked or something.
7: Let the sergeant take Krak grenades, or give him a power fist for free. You don't need melta to crack tanks. Give the Sarge Krak Grenades or something, or alternatively I would go for something along the lines of: In stead of taking a special weapon (CML/PC/HF/AC) the squad may instead take combi-weapons (at a price of course).

Sound good?

Here is what I am thinking so far, please let me know all your constructive criticism.

Add to ability "Deathwing Assault":
Units choosing to make a Deathwing Assault do not count against the number of units held in reserve at the beginning of the game. If all the controlling players units start in reserve, the player is not subject to losing the game during the entire first turn due to having no models on the field. If a unit making a Deathwing Assault suffers a Mishap, they may always choose to suffer a Delayed result instead of roll on the Mishap Table.

Add to ability "Vengeful Strike":
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3.

Add to Wargear:
(Special Issue Wargear) Orbital Beacon (50 points)
Only one Orbital Beacon may be taken per primary detachment. Units in Terminator Armor arriving via Deathwing Assault within 12" of an Orbital Beacon only scatter 1d6. After forces have been deployed including infiltrators but before scout moves, place a suitable 1” diameter counter on the tabletop and roll for scatter. If a "Hit" is rolled, the Orbital Beacon still scatters the full 2d6 in the direction noted on the "Hit" symbol on the scatter die.

(Terminator Wargear) Terminator Gauntlet (base cost)
A Terminator Gauntlet is visually nearly identical to a Power Fist but contains miniaturized version of the Power Field Generators found in its more destructive sibling. This makes the weapon much less unwieldy to use while still enhancing the strength of the wielder. While a Power Fist rends infantry armor as easily as tank armor, a Terminator Gauntlet is meant specifically for killing infantry. Statistics as a Power Maul.

Replace the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry with the following:
Statlines remain the same.
Points:180
Wargear:
Terminator Armor
Storm Bolter
Terminator Gauntlet (Deathwing Terminator only)
Power Sword (Deathwing Sergeant only)
Special Rules remain the same.

Options:
May include up to five additional Deathwing Terminators (34 pts/model)
Any model (including Sergeant) can replace both their SB and melee weapon (Gauntlet or Sword) with:
Pair of Lightning Claws (10 pts)
SB/PF (10 pts)
SB/Chainfist (15 pts)
TH/SS (15 pts)
For every 5 Deathwing Terminators in the squad may take one of the below options:
Replace SB with HB (5 pts)
Replace SB with HF (10 pts)
Replace SB with Plas Cannon (15 pts)
Replace SB with MM (15 pts)
Replace SB with Assault Cannon (20 pts)
Take a CML (25 pts)
Replace SB with Gravcannon (35 pts)
Deathwing Terminator Squads may select a Land Raider of any type as a Dedicated Transport. This vehicle must be given the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade.

A sample army list similar to the one I showed in my original post (1500):

Belial (TH/SS)
Orbital Beacon

Deathwing Command Squad
Deathwing Champion
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing Terminator (HF/PF)
Deathwing Terminator (TH/SS & Deathwing Banner)
Deathwing Terminator (TH/SS)

2X Deathwing Terminator Squad (5 man)
Power Fist, Assault Cannon

Deathwing Terminator Squad (5 man)
Power Fist, Grav Cannon

Deathwing Terminator Squad (7 man)
4 TH/SS, 1 Multi-Melta (4 TH/SS, 1 MM/Gauntlet, 1 SB/Gauntlet)

I don't know why you want to make Stormbolter Powerfist Terminators 44 points each.. terminators loyalist/Traitors alike are all OVER costed. They do not live as long as they did in previous editions of 40k

Your trying to Fix Terminators But keeping them at the same point values that they are now.

The First Step for Fixing them is a Flat price reduction for what they bring now

34 points Power Fist, Storm bolter - Done

Paying for weapon upgrades... No the point is keeping them Low in cost, Making them pay 15 points for a TH/SS would bring them up to there Current price.... Making it a free upgrade or cost 5 points at most would be okay but would still be pricy


They do not need heavy bolters or Multi Meltas on them. They Don't bring enough of them to matter

Having 2 Heavy weapons and only 2 heavy weapons from the get Go is Fine.

"Up to two terminators may select one of the following"
-Hflamer, Assault cannon, Plasma Cannon, CML
Done

They are not Chaos space marines and do not need to start with a power weapon and storm bolter, they are loyalist and start with a Powerfist and Storm bolter.

Your New Vengeful strike adds little to the firepower that current deathwing bring.

with a squad of 5 your getting 4 extra shots (having a heavy weapon). vs MEQ thats.4 more dead.. the next turn those deathwing terminators are going to get shot to hell by everything the enemy army has, and will probably be removed from the field.

Deathwing stormbolters assault 3

vengful strike doubles their rate of fire of Deathwing Stormbolters and makes all other weapons Twinlinked for the turn they arrive from deep strike

5 guys (no heavy weapon or CML), thats 5 storm bolters (with the above assault 3) would be 30 bolter shots once they enter, returning to normal the following turn getting 15 shots. (of you have a heavy weapon or a mixed unit with melee weapons its lower)

compaired to a Tac squad with bolters in a drop pod
(they're going to be within 12 inches)
20 shots the turn they arrive, and 20 shots every turn after.(your probably going to have a special weapon/heavy weapon in said squad, so 16 shots every turn)

Banner of dev needs to affect storm bolters and make them out preform regular bolters, your paying a Premium so you need to get something extra.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
I don't know why you want to make Stormbolter Powerfist Terminators 44 points each.. terminators loyalist/Traitors alike are all OVER costed. They do not live as long as they did in previous editions of 40k

Your trying to Fix Terminators But keeping them at the same point values that they are now.

The First Step for Fixing them is a Flat price reduction for what they bring now

34 points Power Fist, Storm bolter - Done

Paying for weapon upgrades... No the point is keeping them Low in cost, Making them pay 15 points for a TH/SS would bring them up to there Current price.... Making it a free upgrade or cost 5 points at most would be okay but would still be pricy


They do not need heavy bolters or Multi Meltas on them. They Don't bring enough of them to matter

Having 2 Heavy weapons and only 2 heavy weapons from the get Go is Fine.

"Up to two terminators may select one of the following"
-Hflamer, Assault cannon, Plasma Cannon, CML
Done

They are not Chaos space marines and do not need to start with a power weapon and storm bolter, they are loyalist and start with a Powerfist and Storm bolter.

Your New Vengeful strike adds little to the firepower that current deathwing bring.

with a squad of 5 your getting 4 extra shots (having a heavy weapon). vs MEQ thats.4 more dead.. the next turn those deathwing terminators are going to get shot to hell by everything the enemy army has, and will probably be removed from the field.

Deathwing stormbolters assault 3

vengful strike doubles their rate of fire of Deathwing Stormbolters and makes all other weapons Twinlinked for the turn they arrive from deep strike

5 guys (no heavy weapon or CML), thats 5 storm bolters (with the above assault 3) would be 30 bolter shots once they enter, returning to normal the following turn getting 15 shots. (of you have a heavy weapon or a mixed unit with melee weapons its lower)

compaired to a Tac squad with bolters in a drop pod
(they're going to be within 12 inches)
20 shots the turn they arrive, and 20 shots every turn after.(your probably going to have a special weapon/heavy weapon in said squad, so 16 shots every turn)

Banner of dev needs to affect storm bolters and make them out preform regular bolters, your paying a Premium so you need to get something extra.

You have a premium of 21pts for a 2+ armour save, an assault 3 boltgun when they come in, deep strike, inner circle, a power weapon, an extra attack, relentless, the ability to take TH/SS, lightning claws, CMLs, heavy flamers and autocannons... And chainfists.
...
...
...
No, just no, that's overpowered.

2+ armour save doesn't mean gak in this game anymore.

they fire power terminators bring is gak.

White scar bikes pay
21 ppm for T5, 3+, 4+ jink for moving (3+ if turbo boosting), twinlinked bolters, 2 Grav guns, and those 2 grav guns out perform anything terminators can bring), Scout (because your bringing Kos'Sarro), 1+ strength hammer of wrath, Frag and Krak grenades, Auto pass dangerous terrian tests, Hit and Run, All of that on a relentless platform that can move 12" a turn (24 with turbo boost)

I tried this a while back and here is what I came up with, these have been play tested quite thoroughly and the points are accurate for what they bring

Elites

Dw close support squad "nemesis" strike force
Stats as per normal dw unit
Wargear: power weapon (sword or maul only), special issue ammunition, terminator armour
Specail rules: dw assault, (no vengeful strike)
40pts per model 5-10

Heavy support
Vengaence support unit
Stats as per dw terminators, sarge has signum
Wargear: pw as above, heavy bolter
Options: May upgrade heavy bolter to any 1 of the following
Mm 20pts
Lascannon 20pts
Assault cannon 15pts
Plasma cannon 15pts
Any model may have a cyclone missile launcher for 20pts per model.
Specail rules: dw assault, furious barrage
Furios barrage: any unit with at least 3 cyclone may forgoe it's shooting to make the following attack
Range 48
Str 8
Ap2
Ordance 1 large blast
Any unit that uses this attack may not charge this turn or fire ow

 Formosa wrote:
I tried this a while back and here is what I came up with, these have been play tested quite thoroughly and the points are accurate for what they bring

Elites

Dw close support squad "nemesis" strike force
Stats as per normal dw unit
Wargear: power weapon (sword or maul only), special issue ammunition, terminator armour
Specail rules: dw assault, (no vengeful strike)
40pts per model 5-10

Heavy support
Vengaence support unit
Stats as per dw terminators, sarge has signum
Wargear: pw as above, heavy bolter
Options: May upgrade heavy bolter to any 1 of the following
Mm 20pts
Lascannon 20pts
Assault cannon 15pts
Plasma cannon 15pts
Any model may have a cyclone missile launcher for 20pts per model.
Specail rules: dw assault, furious barrage
Furios barrage: any unit with at least 3 cyclone may forgoe it's shooting to make the following attack
Range 48
Str 8
Ap2
Ordance 1 large blast
Any unit that uses this attack may not charge this turn or fire ow

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.

you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.

you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.

30pts base for the termy, dw assault 5pts, special issue ammo 5pts, how would you have priced them?

30pts for dev termy, 5pts for heavy bolter, 5pts for dw assault, how much would you have priced them?

These costs are with a year of playtesting, these are no arbitrary and off the top of my head, for75pts per model we get
2+ save, plasma cannon and a cyclone that fires on the move, for 80 we get a lascannon. And cyclone and a inv save, hmm and gw must be with me in this as the cents are similarly costed but boosted in other ways

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

See, this is an actually good idea instead of making them completely and utterly OP.

you're right keeping them at the same point value with the same abilties while every other Troop choice from every 6th ed codex can outperform them at half their cost.

Yup you're fixing Deathwing alright.

Please feel free to read any of my other posts, because you clearly haven't.

 Formosa wrote:



30pts base for the termy, dw assault 5pts, special issue ammo 5pts, how would you have priced them?

30pts for dev termy, 5pts for heavy bolter, 5pts for dw assault, how much would you have priced them?

These costs are with a year of playtesting, these are no arbitrary and off the top of my head, for75pts per model we get
2+ save, plasma cannon and a cyclone that fires on the move, for 80 we get a lascannon. And cyclone and a inv save, hmm and gw must be with me in this as the cents are similarly costed but boosted in other ways

Your list is fine,

Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)

Storm bolter changed to assault 3

Vengful strike changed to Double the rate of Fire of storm bolters the turn you arrive from deep strike

Banner of Devestation effect storm bolters, heavy 6 (it only has a 6" bubble from the banner itself so get more shots because your going to be AP 2 pieplate bait the next turn)

Currently you pay 44 points for a 2+ model that shots 2 times with a Str 4 ap 5 weapon at 24 inches

for 42 points I can have a Crisis suit that shoots 8 times at 18 inches with a str 5 ap 5 weapons, has 2 wounds and better mobility.

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
3 crisis suits all with 2 plasma each and 5 gun drones 216

crisis suits alone will remove ~3.333 terminators a turn
Drones will remove .83 terminators a turn

4.16 terminators will die a turn

Terminators will remove 1.111 Wounds a turn agianst the crisis suits

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
3 crisis suits with 2 Burst cannons and 6 gun drones, 1 drone controller, 206 points
Crisis suits will remove 1.3333 Terminators a turn
drones will remove 1.185185 terminators a turn

roughly 2.5 terminators will die a turn

Terminators will remove 1.111 wounds a turn agianst crisis suits

Lets look at white scar Bikes

current Squad of Deathwing terminators cost 220 points Base before upgrades
6 Bikes, 1 attack bike, 2 grav guns, 1 combi -grav 221
8 tl Bolter shots, .59 terminators removed
1 HB, .22 terminators removed
9 grav gun shots, 3.3333 terminators removed

Bike squad will remove 4.14 terminators a turn

10 stormbolter shots, .74 Bikes will be removed a turn

Eldar bikes
Deathwing 220 points
200 points for 10 jetbikes and 3 surikun cannons
14 TL shuriken (4.14 reg wounds, 2.07 ap 2 wounds) .691 + 1.379 = 2.07 terminators removed a turn
9 Shuriken cannon shots (4 reg wounds , 1 ap 2 wound) .6666+ .6666 = 1.333 terminators removed

3.403 terminators removed a turn

10 stormbolter shots 1.111 Eldar Bikes removed a turn.

At roughly Equal points each of these squads have a killing power 3x -4x times greater than that of Deathwing terminators.

@ Formosa
I like your idea but I was just trying to adjust instead of invent. If I start inventing it would become hard to get people to play against it without whiping out my spreadsheets of math hammer and a 30 minute discussion about "it isn't broken I swear". Other people I have talked to at the FLGS were very leary when they heard we were tweaking Deathwing. Their consternation was mainly along the lines of "but you already get 2+/5++(3++) scoring troop choices, OMG broken". We are trying to strike a balance between "what would be cool" and "what people will be willing to play against with only slight discussion".

Near army wide special ammo for 5 points a model? Going from tactical to sternguard is 10 points so it doesn't sound as bad as I originally thought. However, army wide that gap adds up quick. On the fluffy side I don't mind giving them special ammo, my Deathwatch Chaplain uses special ammo on his SB and it is a lot of fun. My concern again is giving new toys that are not "conservative". Letting them take MM/HB/LC are all things that codex tactical (3+) marines can do and most everyone agrees that terminators need a lower price for what you get. The only "invention" we were putting in was the Orbital Beacon to counteract not having Ravenwing.

OMG heavy weapon AND a CML on the same model... to me that is putting a couple dozen eggs in one dakka filled basket! The "Furious Barrage" special rule is interesting, but again I am trying not to invent new things. A unit of 5 of those guys would be close to 400 points if I am not mistaken, which doesn't help with the low model count issue...

I would be interested to see how you break down a cent cost wise. For one because I have never thought of how the cost is broken down, but also so that I could potentially cost the grav cannon with more "authority" if it could be shown as a logical breakdown of cost.

@ BrotherofBone
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)

Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?

holymauler wrote:
@ Formosa
I like your idea but I was just trying to adjust instead of invent. If I start inventing it would become hard to get people to play against it without whiping out my spreadsheets of math hammer and a 30 minute discussion about "it isn't broken I swear". Other people I have talked to at the FLGS were very leary when they heard we were tweaking Deathwing. Their consternation was mainly along the lines of "but you already get 2+/5++(3++) scoring troop choices, OMG broken". We are trying to strike a balance between "what would be cool" and "what people will be willing to play against with only slight discussion".

Near army wide special ammo for 5 points a model? Going from tactical to sternguard is 10 points so it doesn't sound as bad as I originally thought. However, army wide that gap adds up quick. On the fluffy side I don't mind giving them special ammo, my Deathwatch Chaplain uses special ammo on his SB and it is a lot of fun. My concern again is giving new toys that are not "conservative". Letting them take MM/HB/LC are all things that codex tactical (3+) marines can do and most everyone agrees that terminators need a lower price for what you get. The only "invention" we were putting in was the Orbital Beacon to counteract not having Ravenwing.

OMG heavy weapon AND a CML on the same model... to me that is putting a couple dozen eggs in one dakka filled basket! The "Furious Barrage" special rule is interesting, but again I am trying not to invent new things. A unit of 5 of those guys would be close to 400 points if I am not mistaken, which doesn't help with the low model count issue...

I would be interested to see how you break down a cent cost wise. For one because I have never thought of how the cost is broken down, but also so that I could potentially cost the grav cannon with more "authority" if it could be shown as a logical breakdown of cost.

@ BrotherofBone
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing terminator
Base 34 points
Power Fist, Storm bolter,
Weapon upgrades (chain fist, TH/SS free)
weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

Up to Two terminators may take the following
-Plasma cannon, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, CML (these keep their Codex cost)

Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?

I'm not being sarcastic at all. People make do with Deathwing in normal games, so why do they need such a massive power up?? They just need a points decrease, and something to make them more tactical.

holymauler wrote:


Couple things with this list. You basically let every terminator mix and match weapons so you can have a Plas cannon/SS model. The way it is written currently no one would ever have a PF if a chainfist or TH is free. The 2/5 heavy weapons is an interesting thought for dakka oriented squads. On a modeling note, these changes would require an entire "remodel" of most of the army any given deathwing player had to take advantage of these options. There are many degrees of difference between marking one of your termies with a pipecleaner ring around his head and saying "this guy actually has an MM" and trying to keep track of which models have an Storm Shield/Power Fist/Chainfist/Lightning Claw/Thunderhammer in their non-dakka hand. My alterations only require maybe 5 new models with fairly easy conversions(MM/Gravcannon) to be WYSIWYG on a tabletop, the alterations you speak of would mean remodeling half the army to take advantage of these changes in rules.

I am becoming a big fan of just shaving 10 points off of all terminator models, adding a few heavy weapon choices, making SB Heavy 3 all day long and calling it a day. It keeps the army very close to original codex, provides about 20% more models on the table and brings back weapon versitility we lost in being all Deathwing. Maybe just give the beacon away for free to keep from having potentially 20-30% of our army mishap, hell just make Deathwing Assault only scatter 1d6.

Thoughts?

The point of the allowing every Terminator mix and match weapons is because they are Elites of the elites, if you look at pretty much all of the Elite choices from all of the 6th ed codexs, Every units can pretty much mix and match weapons for a purpose, Sternguard can take Combi weapons and still have access to special ammo, Vanguard (no one really uses them) Can be kitted out with any melee weapon they want. if both of those units make up the Bulk of the First Company why the hell don't Terminators mix and match their weapons?

yes you could get a Terminator with a PLasma cannon and a Storm shield. he costs 49 points for that. The storm shield increases his survivability agianst AP 1-2 weapons significantly. while his survivability agianst small arms has remained the same, and at the same time he loses his atr 8 ap 2 attack.

yes everyone could run thunder hammer storm bolter, but whats the point? Thunder hammer + Storm bolter still does the same melee damage and range damage as PF + Storm bolter, are you really going to bother to swap out all of your power fists on your guys for thunder hammers? you don't gain concussion but you no longer have that 3++ save to keep you alive till next round. If you want to model it go ahead.

maybe a person would like to run LC/SS or CF/SS to deal with horde with hidden axes or Vehicle spam armies?

Conversions are easily done with 1 box , the Deathing Command Sqaud, you get a mix of pretty much all weapons (except lighting claws you only get 1 pair, but you can add blades to powerfist knuckles), stormboltersx5/powerfistsx5/Stormshieldsx5/powermaulsx5(easily turned into Thunder hammers)

You can always use Magnets like most people do with Sternguard.

I understand your not trying to invent but tweak, but sadly gw has shown us that when it comes to terminators they are inept at making them work, I have been playing dw since it's inception and it has always been an under dog, the only way to resolve this is by going back to the drawing board and starting again, so here is what I propose.

Ignore the da codex entry for dw terminators, ignore all the rules and begin with what you think they are, what role they are supposed to fill in a da army.

Let's all answer these questions first and after we agree, that's when we start thinking of rules.

I will start by saying that in my mind dw terminators are the apex if "cutting the head off the snake", I believe they should excel at mc and ic hunting and that should be there roll on the tt, they should also be the masters of the teleportation strike with bonus's for this.

First of all, thank you everyone who has been giving constructive criticism and suggestions. They are appreciated and very helpful!

BrotherOfBone wrote:I'm not being sarcastic at all. People make do with Deathwing in normal games, so why do they need such a massive power up?? They just need a points decrease, and something to make them more tactical.

Formusa wrote:I have been playing dw since it's inception and it has always been an under dog, the only way to resolve this is by going back to the drawing board and starting again, so here is what I propose.

It seems that we have competing viewpoints here. BrotherOfBone proposes a quick $10 haircut on price and maybe a few more options while Formusa wants to give DW the three finger salute (ctrl+alt+del=reboot). As I have stated above, I would lean towards the quick and simple for the simple reason of needing to convince others to play against my "homebrewed army". Also, it's quick and simple!

Ninjacommando wrote:Conversions are easily done with 1 box , the Deathing Command Sqaud, you get a mix of pretty much all weapons (except lighting claws you only get 1 pair, but you can add blades to powerfist knuckles), stormboltersx5/powerfistsx5/Stormshieldsx5/powermaulsx5(easily turned into Thunder hammers)

The concern I had on the modeling end is that my friend would not be starting "from the begining" and already has an assembled, well painted and based force. To make the changes you propose would mean he (or anyone else who already has DW) had to buy half a whole new army in order to utilize them.

New and Improved "short list":
Only models in Terminator armor may be included, All Terminator models -10 points, 1d6 scatter when using Deathwing Assault, no autolose for all in "reserve" turn 1 and MM option for 15 points.

Thoughts on the quick and easy version? I would be VERY INTERESTED in comming up with a whole new dex and that will be a fun project for the 14 hour drive to family christmas, but not right now. I would like some sense of "would play against this" or "OMG so OP!" from those of you that have been contributing. It is much appreciated and gives me some confidence that what is being discussed isn't so far out of the rhelm of possibility.

Somebody said just allow for 2 heavies per 5... That is brilliant and really SHOULD have remained during the codex update. I have 5 extra termy bodies and by god they are gett heavy weapons!

 Deuce11 wrote:
Somebody said just allow for 2 heavies per 5... That is brilliant and really SHOULD have remained during the codex update. I have 5 extra termy bodies and by god they are gett heavy weapons!

This would not solve what we see as one of the fundimental issues with Deathwing, only having 35 odd models at a normal point level. In fact adding mor eheavy weapons would reduce model count... There is math in some of the higher up posts that shows their firepower compared to 3+ marines and it is rather eye opening.

holymauler wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
Somebody said just allow for 2 heavies per 5... That is brilliant and really SHOULD have remained during the codex update. I have 5 extra termy bodies and by god they are gett heavy weapons!

This would not solve what we see as one of the fundimental issues with Deathwing, only having 35 odd models at a normal point level. In fact adding mor eheavy weapons would reduce model count... There is math in some of the higher up posts that shows their firepower compared to 3+ marines and it is rather eye opening.

Make the second of the same type free like a Grey Hunter special weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cataphracti armor from horus heresy provides a 4++ instead of the normal 5++... since the 1st legion is so good at keeping their old toys in working order (plasma and speeders) maybe we could buff their normal deathwing invul to 4++ as well....