<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Who is more zealous?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344139.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous? It's Adepta Sororitas, by the way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344202.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344219.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

Don't forget coming back from the dead as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344232.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Necrosis wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

Don't forget coming back from the dead as well.


Sisters fail in upholding their cause? They feel terrible, begin to self mutilate, give away guns for a giant friggin sword, remove their armor (and considered that Sisters are burried in it) and then charge in a brutal overseer whipping them. Your magical mind bullets? HERESY! We shall burn your foul existence off of the galaxy heretic scum.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344256.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344616.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344687.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344850.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.


It's very very stupid, but yes, this is actually true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344861.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6344922.page GMT Who is more zealous? BT) to fanatically follow the Imperial Creed.

This is further shown on the tabletop from how it is the Battle Sisters sheer faith that allows them ignore grievous wounds and perform miraculous feats which go beyond mere biological enhancements that the BT have and ultimately lack a parallel ability that demonstrate that the Sisters are a on a higher tier of zealotry.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6345002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6345002.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous? but one thing I always find is that the zeal of Templars is overstated, they are crusading space marines first and foremost, they'll get hot headed once they start losing friends but they aren't frothing at the mouth super nutters]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6345054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6345054.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Grimskul wrote:

This is further shown on the tabletop from how it is the Battle Sisters sheer faith that allows them ignore grievous wounds and perform miraculous feats which go beyond mere biological enhancements that the BT have and ultimately lack a parallel ability that demonstrate that the Sisters are a on a higher tier of zealotry.


Or it could be because the Sisters needed something on the tabletop to keep them from being worse Space Marines.

The Black Templars' sociopathic zeal in Helsreach is so high that the ranking Sister of Battle personally disproves of it.

Direct comparison.

Thread's over guys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6346730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6346730.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Or it could be because the Sisters needed something on the tabletop to keep them from being worse Space Marines.

More to make them distinct as an army, I'd say. As well as distinguishing the Sisters in terms of crunch, AoFs and the Shield of Faith add a lot of characterisation to the Sisters, and really exemplifies their fluff as zealot-soldiers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Black Templars' sociopathic zeal in Helsreach is so high that the ranking Sister of Battle personally disproves of it.

Direct comparison.

That's just some BL author's version of it, though. Studio fluff has the Sisters and Templars getting along quite well. The 6E Marine Codex even talks about how the two forces often fight alongside each other and have a mutual respect. That doesn't sound like disapproval to me, more like a good team that gets along well.

And, really, a Sister disapproving of zeal in the first place sounds a bit odd.

Edit: In fact, I found an image that goes into some detail about the relationship between the SoB and BT, and it shows that they do indeed have a good relationship.
Spoiler:
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347114.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347147.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347164.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Troike wrote:
 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.


What a waste of an eviscerator. Just give her a pointy stick and the emperor should help sort out the rest.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347201.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
 Troike wrote:
 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.

What a waste of an eviscerator. Just give her a pointy stick and the emperor should help sort out the rest.
The Evicerator is pretty low tech, like Meltaguns, plus they will still be there when the sister makes her last suicidal charge.
Besides, Priests in Robes are the most common users aside from the Sister's Repentia with FNP]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347366.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Sisters win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6347995.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6348009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6348009.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6348533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6348533.page GMT Who is more zealous?
I can imagine the discussion.

Black Templar: Hello there, I want to ask you a question.

Sister of Battle: Yes?

Black Templar: Well, here's the deal. I have been serving the Emperor faithfully for almost two hundred years now. I have said more prayers than you have said sentences. How come YOU get superpowers and I don't?

Sister of Battle: I am not a superhuman, so my faith is more pure/acceptable/whatever?

Black Templar: That's ludicrous. Sure, I am a stim-pumped piece of muscle, but my mind is as functioning as yours. (And just as filled with blind zeal.) I can believe as much as you do.

Sister of Battle: But you are, like, super-powerful. You can't look up to the Emperor as much as I do.

Black Templar: He is as far above both of us so the differences between us two are irrelevant.

Sister of Battle: Hey, we need something that makes us more than 'BS4 guardsmen with Marine equipment', right?

Black Templar: What?

Sister of Battle: Ehhh... Because I whip myself bloody every day?

Black Templar: Me too...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353337.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Out of curiousity, what exactly is it that makes Sisters able to be so zealous so that they get super-saiyan powers and no one else can't?


Spoiler:


The Emperor is still a man after all. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353350.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353353.page GMT Who is more zealous? BT mellowed out too much for 6th, they are no longer contender.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353508.page GMT Who is more zealous?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Out of curiousity, what exactly is it that makes Sisters able to be so zealous so that they get super-saiyan powers and no one else can't?
Because it's not just zeal but a combination of personal conviction and a training scheme unique to their organisation. "Being angry" simply does not suffice, else half the Imperium would have such abilities. It also does not matter at all that their maximum biological lifespan is two to three times that of a non-juvenat-receiving Sister when the latter are receiving their special skills from a daily lifestyle which already shows results after just a few years. So, no, the total amount of prayers is still less important than what they do in a single day every day, or how they grew up (Sisters in the Schola, Black Templars in a Hive and other ordinary Imperial worlds), or how exactly their training looks like.

"The sect, known as the Daughters of the Emperor, contained only female members and devoted itself to the Emperor through inner purity. The Daughter of the Emperor studied ancient arts of war, using a taxing learning process to clear their minds of all worldly considerations, honing their skills over their entire lives."
- 2E C:SoB

Asking why the Sisters' faith produces more notable results is like asking why Space Marines can only be male. The answer is "Because." It's primarily a design decision that only subsequently received a half-assed explanation because the writers thought it'd be sufficient.

And why should it not be? Abilities such as the Crusader trait, the Deny the Witch bonus, and the Emperor's Champion are proof that, thanks to the power of their own belief, the Black Templars' are able to tap into the same general type of mental discipline that allows the Sisters to trigger their own Acts of Faith, just with different and somewhat less notable effects, and considering that this is a different organisation that has their own ways of venerating the God-Emperor this does not seem unlikely at all.

So, in a way, asking for BT with AoF is on the same level as asking for female Marines, just that it's even less of a controversial topic than the latter as there's no political correctness involved. It hints at a certain disregard for the setting as it has been written up by the original designers, in favour of placing one's own favourite into an even better light rather than accepting the "narrative balance" that GW has created here with this kind of arbitration.

Is being a Space Marine not sufficient anymore? Is this a desire for even better Space Marines, or just a dislike for some humans daring to even just temporarily close in on "their" turf of superior performance, as if this would somehow lessen how awesome/cool they are for you?

One should assume that any Black Templars player embraces the synergy between the BT and the SoB rather than trying to ursurp the one thing that makes the latter a viable, unique force in the background and on the tabletop, like so many things that once were unique to the Sisters of Battle have already been usurped in the past. Including the very existence of an elite force of religious nutjobs - yes, the Sisters' fluff is older than the BT.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6353661.page GMT Who is more zealous? AoFs (a singularly focused indoctrination and Marines already being superhuman), it really does set the Sisters apart as a faction, makes them special, gives them their edge as an army in 40K's ever brutal setting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354084.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous?
I'd say they're equally crazy but in different ways. For every Sister surviving a lascannon to the face, there's a Templar doing the same. For every Living Saint smiting the heretics, there's an Emperor's Champion guided by the Emperor Himself. Why must it be a contest?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354115.page GMT Who is more zealous? BT are not applicable. But still. Say that a chapter actually did like the BT except that they were, like the Grey Knights, completely abandoning their past lives. Say that their memory was wiped and that they lived very zealously. Would they get superpowers too? If not, why?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354158.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Or is he just "greatest man to ever live"?

If the former? Possibly. If they entertain no thoughts of doubt.

If the latter? Not a chance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354266.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Psienesis wrote:
Depends. Do they worship the God-Emperor as a Divine Being? Is he, to them, an actual god? The being who sees the entire galaxy, makes the stars burn and planets turn, who's divine plan can be seen in all things, but understood by no mortal?

Or is he just "greatest man to ever live"?

If the former? Possibly. If they entertain no thoughts of doubt.

If the latter? Not a chance.


I mean, this is just hypothetically. I am not arguing for this to actually happen, but there must be some rational reason for why only SoB can access those powers, and why no one else can. Otherwise others would have stopped, thought a bit, and decided to do the same.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354314.page GMT Who is more zealous? SM Chapters venerate the God-Emperor as a god.
No SM Chapters recruit their members from birth.
No SM Chapter believes that the purpose of life is to suffer, as He has suffered.
Few SM Chapters deny themselves all carnal pleasures.

For the most part... the Sisters are better because they make themselves better.

It has nothing to do with the genetic augmentations or the implants. It has to do with belief, power of will, the power of the human spirit and the sublimation of any sense of ego or self-worth in the face of something greater than the individual.

Few, if any, Space Marines see themselves as less than nothing, beholden to the God-Emperor for *everything* that they are, living only to serve Him. It is, in the end, their own ego that keeps them from being as the Sisters are.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354332.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354399.page GMT Who is more zealous?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:You assume too much. I am not a black templars player. I don't care for some kind of 'balance'. I just wondered why only they could access it. With this apparent retcon, perhaps the BT are not applicable.
Sorry, for some reason I only paid attention to your name and the post - also looking at the avatar and the signature would've probably helped.

But what retcon are you referring to?

Psienesis wrote:Few SM Chapters deny themselves all carnal pleasures.
Mhm? Looking at the daily schedule in 3E, the Codex Astartes doesn't leave a lot of room for them, aside from perhaps a nice meal (not sure what they'd eat) whereas the Sisters spend a lot of days fasting.

Psienesis wrote:It is, in the end, their own ego that keeps them from being as the Sisters are.
And it is their ego which has, in the past, proven to be the most vulnerable spot for a Space Marine's convictions and loyalties...

Perhaps it is a subtle difference in the focus of belief - in that the Black Templars see themselves as enforcers of the One True Faith (placing the onus on them), whereas Sisters place their trust utterly in the Emperor to guide them, as if they were mere vessels for His divine will? You can be a zealot and still arrogant about it. Maybe that's what empowers their Emperor's Champion - that in this instance, where he spiritually submits to the Emperor's guiding hand, the Marine temporarily comes close to the Sisters' mindset .. and accordingly gains a further bonus to his performance (otherwise any BT should perform the same way, no?).

There's a lot of possible explanations (we've already listed a few by now) ... but ultimately it boils down to "because GW said so", exactly like with the "Marine zygotes only work on males" idea. And unlike the former, we at least know the latter is biological BS, but we still accept it for the same reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354464.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Lynata wrote:

But what retcon are you referring to?


This one.

 Omegus wrote:
BT mellowed out too much for 6th, they are no longer contender.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354471.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Even then, Templars still lacked AoFs like the Sisters had, so the Sisters were still apparently doing somethmh different to the BT.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Templars could get a 6++ from their sheer faith at all times until a few months ago

They could? Never heard that before. Was it on all of their units by default?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354519.page GMT Who is more zealous? BT "mellowed" out. Whilst I agree that this supposed respect for Psykers sounds really weird (I'd have to see the fluff for myself, though - the internet does tend to "twist" details by a combination of hearsay and hyperbole, especially when it comes to 40k), they've now been confirmed as being religious zealots, and their TT rules still reflect this by granting them certain bonuses as an effect of their convictions.

It just so happens that these bonuses are not identical to what the SoB get - which would be lame from a mechanical point of view, and not very realistic in terms of the background. After all, in spite of their alliance and spiritual proximity, there's still a number of differences between these two forces, all of whom could have some effect on how exactly their conviction manifests itself.


I'm (occasionally, whenever I find the time and mood) writing on a fan-based supplement for a 40k P&P RPG, and it will include a "unified" faith system with Acts of Faith applicable to anyone with a certain amount of spiritual purity and zeal - it just so happens that, depending on upbringing, lifestyle, and training, some AoF will still remain exclusive to some groups. In case of the Black Templars, I would aim to represent their current special rules as Acts of Faith as well.

Perhaps GW's "mistake" was simply to not label all of these special abilities in a similar fashion but giving SoB a unique term for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354601.page GMT Who is more zealous?
And this system of yours seems interesting. What would you make of Chaos Marines? (Say, Word Bearers; those guys are pretty darn fanatical]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354695.page GMT Who is more zealous?
So, were it me, the Word Bearers would not get AoF, but they would get Sorcery.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354739.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354746.page GMT Who is more zealous? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354758.page GMT Who is more zealous?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:And this system of yours seems interesting. What would you make of Chaos Marines? (Say, Word Bearers; those guys are pretty darn fanatical]
Ouphh. I hadn't really thought of it (with "unified" I was still focused on purely Imperial characters), but now that you mention it, it would only make sense.

I'd have to read up on how it works by default (my material is still meant to integrate with the existing books) and if there is already something of this sort I could work from. The majority of Chaos boons would probably be actual Warp Magicks, just because Chaos-focused faith generally includes various rituals of actual sorcery, and because the Chaos Gods have a tangible presence in the Immaterium and occasionally grant various powers to their favoured underlings. It'd make sense from both a background as well as balancing point of view if these things would "override" the more flashy faith-based effects as your gods actually do respond to your prayers (allowing the worshiper to "rely" on them) ... For example, looking at the Index Astartes article about the Word Bearers, I can see their rituals often resulting in conjuration of daemons who then fight by their side! That sounds like a cool ability to have.

That being said, I feel that some purely conviction-based bonus should exist as well. Call it a "general zealot bonus", if you will.

Hmmh. Given that my half-finished "Imperial version" of faith is already based on two tiers (general bonuses for spiritual purity + specialised Acts of Faith for further training), I could have the "Chaos version" mirror this by coming up with suitable general bonuses that are also a result of sheer zeal, accompanied by the more powerful Warp-based rituals?

*scribbles notes*

[edit] hah, ninja'd by Psienesis]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354768.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Psienesis wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "inferior". Sorcery can do lots of things that Librarians, or psykers in general, can't.


Gamewise CSM get access to arguably the worst school in the game, Tzeentch, along with Nurgle and Slaanesh that are okay but not particularly eye-drawing for being raw Warp sorcery.
Lorewise Sorcerers do some pretty cool things, but they are all outshone by maniacs like Mephiston and Tigurius.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354780.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354792.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Psienesis wrote:
I fundamentally do not give a damn about the actual table-top game, except for comparative purposes. I only really care about the fluff anymore these days.


Good that this is for comparative purposes, then?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354812.page GMT Who is more zealous?
However, worship of the Emperor is not worship of a Chaos God. I think that worshiping him feeds his own psychic power (just as a Chaos God would be fed through worship, although it is paltry to them). More importantly, however, it allows them to utilise his psychic power, in a similar manner to how Orks (through sheer weight of numbers) can manipulate the Warp.

The vast light of the Astronomicon is so powerful that it is effectively a "secondary Warp" (or perhaps a private section of the Warp) in of itself; large enough to manipulate reality. The Sisters, through weight of numbers combined with extreme amounts of belief and force of will, are able to manifest powers ranging from the minor to the magnificent. This leaves Living Saints as something like an "Astronomicon-powered Daemon Prince", without the machinations of a Chaos Power backing/controlling them.

Personally, I think that the Emperor, in his current state, is not entirely aware of this, at least not in the real sense. He's very busy struggling all the time to keep the Astronomicon going and so on. This doesn't impede the Sororitas from believing that they are personally being watched, judged, and shielded (if worthy) by the Emperor. They believe he guides their aim (re-rolls), girds their armour with his protection (invulnerable saves), and fashions the worthy into beings of purity (Living Saints).

Of course, it's hard to say where it is grit and zeal pushing them onward or the power of The Emperor; the fact that it can be ambiguous at times is what makes them all the more impressive. A Sororitas is going to tear your head off (horns and all), Mister Chaos Lord, because she believes the Emperor will help her do it. Even if he doesn't, she's still going to do it, and she's still going to thank the Emperor for helping her do it. The real reason in this instance is that the Sororitas in question is just a complete badass; often true.

As for the Chaos Powers, things are a little different. You don't need to manifest, say, Slaanesh's power on your own. Regardless of belief, Slaanesh is going to be like "Yup" or "Nope" and do anything from nothing to everything about it. With the Chaos Gods, it's less about belief and more about getting their attention, usually through sacrifice or great feats. Unlike the Emperor (and unlike the Warp itself), the Chaos Gods decide what to do with you, which is why it's mostly merit-based; do well/be lucky and you get gifts, do badly/be unlucky and you get Spawned.

A psyker of any kind casting a lightning bolt from their eyes is because they, as a psyker, have the power to manipulate the Warp into doing so. Weirdboys shoot lightning from their eyes because all other Orks believe they can do so. If every Sororitas believes with great strength that the Emperor is guiding them in various ways, I have no doubt that his power will guide them - even though it's not on his whim.

That's my take on it, anyway.

EDIT: Lorewise, Chaos Sorcerers are vastly superior to Librarians. They have access to dark magics that Librarians could only dream of. Where a Librarian risks the attention of the Chaos Gods by delving too deep into sorcery, Chaos Sorcerers court it. They really should be immune to Perils of the Warp. Tzeentch Sorcerers in particular should be master psykers. But Chaos Marines don't really get the representation they should. Instead, they get the worst psykers and Space Marines get Tigergoose The Tyranid Medium.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354861.page GMT Who is more zealous? SoB: The Living Saint was my favourite superunit in DoW. I do not think I have ever heard a female voice edited to be that 'booming' in similar media before, save perhaps the seconds that Galadriel intimidate Frodo in LOTR.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354874.page GMT Who is more zealous? are, though, is not defined. We only know what they are not.

So, given this, we only have the belief that the God-Emperor is anything more than a corpse on a chair. That is to say, people believe that he is more than that (both in-universe and out) and that it is whatever he is that gives people the ability to do these miraculous things. As you said, the fact that this is ambiguous in the setting is part of its appeal.

However, to what extent the Emperor has any role in this situation is entirely up to the individual.


Good that this is for comparative purposes, then?


In that case, sorcerous rites can end entire worlds. They can summon legions of the daemonic or the walking dead. They can draw the eye Ruinous Powers to a particular world. They can kill a sorcerer's foe with a flick of his wrist. They can call down terrible curses. They can control the mind and the flesh of the unprotected as if it were the sorcerer's own.

Sorcery is what you end up with when your faith in the Dark Gods is rewarded with proof of their existence. Librarians are just psykers on steroids.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354889.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Psienesis wrote:
Living Saints are categorically defined as "not psykers and not daemons".

Oh, where is this said?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6354952.page GMT Who is more zealous? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355012.page GMT Re:Who is more zealous?
"The greatest heroes of the Adepta Sororitas may, in the most exceptional of circumstances, be proclaimed Living Saints. This ascension is likely to occur only a handful of times in a millennium, and is the cause of great recoicing across all worlds of the Imperium.
Before an individual can be declared a Living Saint, a joint conclave of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy must first affirm that the declaration is true, and the individual is just and pure. Some of these convocations have been known to last many years, with debate raging back and forth between the various factions until agreement is reached. Needless to say, the most earnest advocates of the beatification are to be found amongst the Thorians. This faction of the Inquisition believe that the great saint Sebastian Thor was in fact a vessel through which the Emperor took a direct hand in the course of history, and that other examples of such avatars are to be found amongst the teeming billions of Mankind. Others, notably members of the Ordo Malleus, oppose such theories, seeing in them the threat of domination from the denizens of the Warp.
A Living Saint is an avenging angel, a terrible and wondrous being to witness, for they shine with the purest of light, and bring death and destruction to the impure. It is also the case that one who burns twice as bright burns half as long, for no human can wield such power indefinitely. Hence the title 'Living Saint' - for at her ascension, the individual is already martyred, her death a self-fulfilling prophesy."
- 3E C:WH

It stands to reason that an Inquisitor would make sure to rule out psychic/daemonic taint on the individual, yet neither do we know whether the means employed for this purpose are accurate, nor do we have to assume that every Inquisitor has a pure and honest agenda. In fact, it is remarkable that the Ordo Malleus sees the Thorians' tendency towards beatification as a risk towards domination from the Warp(!)
... and did I mention that Celestine was named a Living Saint by a conclave that was made up exclusively of Inquisitors from the Thorian faction? Curioser and curioser ...

Once again, the fluff allows for multiple interpretations of this incident - and in doing so, Celestine's true nature.


PS: I just noticed that the new SoB Codex mentions Helena the Virtuous was made a Living Saint too - sweet!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355144.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Besides, what's the definition of a daemon? I don't think that any part of the Imperium (excepting maybe very open-minded Inquisitors who would be regarded with deep suspicion) would open up the definition to include "good daemons" or "Daemons of the Emperor". Even if he was producing 'good' Warp entities all over the place, they would give them a different title like angels or something. Kind of like how almost nobody dares to accuse the Space Marines of being abhuman.

We know that The Emperor's power is psychic; that is, he is a psyker. There's no question that his power is connected to the Warp. Sisters having some inexplicable other power source makes no sense whatsoever. No amount of zeal and grit can make one resurrect from the dead. Warp power, on the other hand...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355404.page GMT Who is more zealous?
We know that The Emperor's power is psychic; that is, he is a psyker. There's no question that his power is connected to the Warp. Sisters having some inexplicable other power source makes no sense whatsoever. No amount of zeal and grit can make one resurrect from the dead. Warp power, on the other hand...


Except it does. The Acts of Faith are not psychic in origin.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355491.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Psienesis wrote:Except it does. The Acts of Faith are not psychic in origin.
To be fair, Acts of Faith and Celestine could be completely different things. In fact, that is my own interpretation!

AoF: total conviction and a grueling training regime
"Celestine": benign warp entity conjured by the emotional turmoil of a War of Faith, has possessed the body of one of the faithful in order to maintain its manifestation outside the Immaterium (but keeps getting drawn back in, hence dis- and reappearing all the time)*

It is also of note that not all Living Saints need to be the same. Arguably none of the Sisterhood's original Founders were able to resurrect like Celestine did, yet they were all Living Saints. In the end, this is nothing but a title of what the Ecclesiarchy and some Inquisitors think is an avatar for the Emperor.


(*: for added irony, have the Sisters' own anti-psyker Shield of Faith be what pushes Celestine back into the Warp, effectively banishing her for the time being )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355536.page GMT Who is more zealous?
- Resurrect from outright death
- Fly apparently without a jetpack
- Mysteriously appear at a desperate battle precisely when her aid is needed, and subsequently vanish when the battle ends.

If we're going by how the fluff is presented to us, that's indeed more than could be achieved through zeal alone. Obviously we don't know exactly what's up with the woman, but it's something supernatural.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355589.page GMT Who is more zealous? but what the feth is it?!

I think they do this to tease the concept of an ascended Emperor being this totally "new" thing for the setting of 40K, like a God of Law (as they have in Warhammer Fantasy) that operates entirely differently than the Warp and the Gods of Chaos do, so much so that absolutely no one in the 40K universe can even define it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355609.page GMT Who is more zealous?
Troike wrote:Yeah, Celestine's gotta be magical, I'd say.
Or it's just propaganda, mass-hallucination, or archaeotech.

That being said, although I do enjoy poking holes into the supernatural aspects of 40k, I wouldn't want to deviate from what's written too much, regardless of the possibility.

Psienesis wrote:I think they do this to tease the concept of an ascended Emperor being this totally "new" thing for the setting of 40K, like a God of Law (as they have in Warhammer Fantasy) that operates entirely differently than the Warp and the Gods of Chaos do, so much so that absolutely no one in the 40K universe can even define it.
Ugh, I really, really hope that the writers at GW are never going with that idea. The concept of the Emperor being "special" is just ... not something I'd appreciate. I prefer a universe having its rules, and them applying to everyone equally. So any "miracle" is either technology, warp sorcery / psychic stuff, or exaggeration. In addition, I feel that the Emperor being the only "true" god of the setting would be a major let-down in that it would actually give his rule and the Ministorum a justification that doesn't really synch with the idea of the IoM being a dystopia. The faith being a "lie" is part of this idea, for me.

But that's of course just as far as my own preferences are concerned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355631.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Psienesis wrote:
I think they do this to tease the concept of an ascended Emperor being this totally "new" thing for the setting of 40K, like a God of Law (as they have in Warhammer Fantasy) that operates entirely differently than the Warp and the Gods of Chaos do, so much so that absolutely no one in the 40K universe can even define it.

Possibly. One theory about her is that she's a sort of "Imperial Daemon", which could be the case. Another is that she's some sort of focal point for the faith of the SoB, and is somehow empowered by it.

 Lynata wrote:
Or it's just propaganda, mass-hallucination

I tend to rule this one out, since we can "see" her for ourselves by playing her on the tabletop. And she's appeared to aid Imperial forces on a number of occasions and actually single-handedly won the batle for them on at least one occasion. I doubt that that Daemon Prince and his Possessed Marine minions thought that she was a hallucination or propaganda.

 Lynata wrote:
or archaeotech.

This one is somewhat more possible, but the sudden wholly convinient appearences and disappearences all across the galaxy kinda go against this possibility, for me. It can explain the flight and perhaps the resurrecting, but I think the apparent convinient teleporation would be stretching it a little, IMO.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6355649.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 Troike wrote:


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Templars could get a 6++ from their sheer faith at all times until a few months ago

They could? Never heard that before. Was it on all of their units by default?


"Uphold the Honour of the Emperor" gave every non-vehicle a 6++ save.

"[...]However, such is their faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerability that they shrug off the most severe wounds, and therefore gain a 6+ Invulnerable Saving throw at all times [...]" (Codex: Black Templars pg. 24).

As such, I'm arguing that there is no difference in zeal. Both factions are crazy enough to deflect nuclear blasts with sheer force of will, both factions have extraordinary individuals who are empowered (seemingly at least) by the Emperor and go forth to kill enemy champions. Hell, both factions even had a Special Character who could stand up again after being killed out of sheer faith. To argue that one side is more zealous than the other seems rather silly, especially seeing as they're pretty close to each other due to the whole Age of Apostasy thingie.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6358129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6358129.page GMT Who is more zealous?
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

"Uphold the Honour of the Emperor" gave every non-vehicle a 6++ save.

"[...]However, such is their faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerability that they shrug off the most severe wounds, and therefore gain a 6+ Invulnerable Saving throw at all times [...]" (Codex: Black Templars pg. 24).

Interesting. Basically what the Shield of Faith is described as.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As such, I'm arguing that there is no difference in zeal. Both factions are crazy enough to deflect nuclear blasts with sheer force of will, both factions have extraordinary individuals who are empowered (seemingly at least) by the Emperor and go forth to kill enemy champions. Hell, both factions even had a Special Character who could stand up again after being killed out of sheer faith.

Hmmm, yeah, both are hardcore religious nutters. It may be something of a moot point. I suppose that any differences can be put down to respectives biologies and exact application/cultivation of said zeal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6358489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/568342/6358489.page GMT