Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Who is more zealous, the Black Templars or the Adeptas Sororitas?

It's Adepta Sororitas, by the way.

Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

Don't forget coming back from the dead as well.

 Necrosis wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

Don't forget coming back from the dead as well.

Sisters fail in upholding their cause? They feel terrible, begin to self mutilate, give away guns for a giant friggin sword, remove their armor (and considered that Sisters are burried in it) and then charge in a brutal overseer whipping them. Your magical mind bullets? HERESY! We shall burn your foul existence off of the galaxy heretic scum.

The sisters who kill more of the imperials than the enemy.

Black templars gets my vote

Is this even a question? Sisters of course.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Adepta Sororitas. Black Templars are pretty darn faithful but nothing can compare to human beings that aren't genetically modified that can flip cars, survive melta shots, etc simply due to the sheer willpower of faith.

It's very very stupid, but yes, this is actually true.

Sisters. Their zeal manifests itself in ways that border on the psychic. Black Templars are just really committed by comparison.

Yeah, even with the Black Templars devotion to their never-ending crusade the Sisters have them beat with their absolute faith in the Emperor given that they're raised from birth (vs the 10-12 year olds recruited from chapter keeps/crusades for the BT) to fanatically follow the Imperial Creed.

This is further shown on the tabletop from how it is the Battle Sisters sheer faith that allows them ignore grievous wounds and perform miraculous feats which go beyond mere biological enhancements that the BT have and ultimately lack a parallel ability that demonstrate that the Sisters are a on a higher tier of zealotry.

I would say Sisters,
but one thing I always find is that the zeal of Templars is overstated, they are crusading space marines first and foremost, they'll get hot headed once they start losing friends but they aren't frothing at the mouth super nutters

 Grimskul wrote:

This is further shown on the tabletop from how it is the Battle Sisters sheer faith that allows them ignore grievous wounds and perform miraculous feats which go beyond mere biological enhancements that the BT have and ultimately lack a parallel ability that demonstrate that the Sisters are a on a higher tier of zealotry.

Or it could be because the Sisters needed something on the tabletop to keep them from being worse Space Marines.

The Black Templars' sociopathic zeal in Helsreach is so high that the ranking Sister of Battle personally disproves of it.

Direct comparison.

Thread's over guys.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Or it could be because the Sisters needed something on the tabletop to keep them from being worse Space Marines.

More to make them distinct as an army, I'd say. As well as distinguishing the Sisters in terms of crunch, AoFs and the Shield of Faith add a lot of characterisation to the Sisters, and really exemplifies their fluff as zealot-soldiers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Black Templars' sociopathic zeal in Helsreach is so high that the ranking Sister of Battle personally disproves of it.

Direct comparison.

That's just some BL author's version of it, though. Studio fluff has the Sisters and Templars getting along quite well. The 6E Marine Codex even talks about how the two forces often fight alongside each other and have a mutual respect. That doesn't sound like disapproval to me, more like a good team that gets along well.

And, really, a Sister disapproving of zeal in the first place sounds a bit odd.

Edit: In fact, I found an image that goes into some detail about the relationship between the SoB and BT, and it shows that they do indeed have a good relationship.

I suppose in the end there isn't REALLY any difference in that both would be willing to die in the name of the emperor no matter what moral qualms there might be. However I would have to say sisters in the end, as the sheer amount of burning that they do is ridiculous and I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy, whereas I can't see any loyalist space marines having their people do that.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.

 Troike wrote:

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.

What a waste of an eviscerator. Just give her a pointy stick and the emperor should help sort out the rest.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I could imagine theme getting people to hold grenades and run at the enemy

Ohoho, they take it further than that. Sisters who have failed their duty in some way give up their power amrour and weapons and instead charge the enemy dressed in nothing more than rags, whilst wielding an eviscerator. What's more, these Sisters are entirely willing to do this. Eager, even.

What a waste of an eviscerator. Just give her a pointy stick and the emperor should help sort out the rest.

The Evicerator is pretty low tech, like Meltaguns, plus they will still be there when the sister makes her last suicidal charge.
Besides, Priests in Robes are the most common users aside from the Sister's Repentia with FNP

The Black Templars may be VERY driven by Faith, but the Sisters are actually POWERED by Faith.

Sisters win.

My vote goes to the Sisters. Little doubt there.

I think it's safe to say that neither of them are fun at parties.

Out of curiousity, what exactly is it that makes Sisters able to be so zealous so that they get super-saiyan powers and no one else can't?

I can imagine the discussion.

Black Templar: Hello there, I want to ask you a question.

Sister of Battle: Yes?

Black Templar: Well, here's the deal. I have been serving the Emperor faithfully for almost two hundred years now. I have said more prayers than you have said sentences. How come YOU get superpowers and I don't?

Sister of Battle: I am not a superhuman, so my faith is more pure/acceptable/whatever?

Black Templar: That's ludicrous. Sure, I am a stim-pumped piece of muscle, but my mind is as functioning as yours. (And just as filled with blind zeal.) I can believe as much as you do.

Sister of Battle: But you are, like, super-powerful. You can't look up to the Emperor as much as I do.

Black Templar: He is as far above both of us so the differences between us two are irrelevant.

Sister of Battle: Hey, we need something that makes us more than 'BS4 guardsmen with Marine equipment', right?

Black Templar: What?

Sister of Battle: Ehhh... Because I whip myself bloody every day?

Black Templar: Me too...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Out of curiousity, what exactly is it that makes Sisters able to be so zealous so that they get super-saiyan powers and no one else can't?

The Emperor is still a man after all.

I KNEW there was a reason that their power armour is boobplate...

BT mellowed out too much for 6th, they are no longer contender.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Out of curiousity, what exactly is it that makes Sisters able to be so zealous so that they get super-saiyan powers and no one else can't?

Because it's not just zeal but a combination of personal conviction and a training scheme unique to their organisation. "Being angry" simply does not suffice, else half the Imperium would have such abilities. It also does not matter at all that their maximum biological lifespan is two to three times that of a non-juvenat-receiving Sister when the latter are receiving their special skills from a daily lifestyle which already shows results after just a few years. So, no, the total amount of prayers is still less important than what they do in a single day every day, or how they grew up (Sisters in the Schola, Black Templars in a Hive and other ordinary Imperial worlds), or how exactly their training looks like.

"The sect, known as the Daughters of the Emperor, contained only female members and devoted itself to the Emperor through inner purity. The Daughter of the Emperor studied ancient arts of war, using a taxing learning process to clear their minds of all worldly considerations, honing their skills over their entire lives."
- 2E C:SoB

Asking why the Sisters' faith produces more notable results is like asking why Space Marines can only be male. The answer is "Because." It's primarily a design decision that only subsequently received a half-assed explanation because the writers thought it'd be sufficient.

And why should it not be? Abilities such as the Crusader trait, the Deny the Witch bonus, and the Emperor's Champion are proof that, thanks to the power of their own belief, the Black Templars' are able to tap into the same general type of mental discipline that allows the Sisters to trigger their own Acts of Faith, just with different and somewhat less notable effects, and considering that this is a different organisation that has their own ways of venerating the God-Emperor this does not seem unlikely at all.

So, in a way, asking for BT with AoF is on the same level as asking for female Marines, just that it's even less of a controversial topic than the latter as there's no political correctness involved. It hints at a certain disregard for the setting as it has been written up by the original designers, in favour of placing one's own favourite into an even better light rather than accepting the "narrative balance" that GW has created here with this kind of arbitration.

Is being a Space Marine not sufficient anymore? Is this a desire for even better Space Marines, or just a dislike for some humans daring to even just temporarily close in on "their" turf of superior performance, as if this would somehow lessen how awesome/cool they are for you?

One should assume that any Black Templars player embraces the synergy between the BT and the SoB rather than trying to ursurp the one thing that makes the latter a viable, unique force in the background and on the tabletop, like so many things that once were unique to the Sisters of Battle have already been usurped in the past. Including the very existence of an elite force of religious nutjobs - yes, the Sisters' fluff is older than the BT.

Excellent points! I exalted. Aside from there being passable in-universe reasons for Sisters having AoFs (a singularly focused indoctrination and Marines already being superhuman), it really does set the Sisters apart as a faction, makes them special, gives them their edge as an army in 40K's ever brutal setting.

Templars could get a 6++ from their sheer faith at all times until a few months ago, so that point is pretty moot.

I'd say they're equally crazy but in different ways. For every Sister surviving a lascannon to the face, there's a Templar doing the same. For every Living Saint smiting the heretics, there's an Emperor's Champion guided by the Emperor Himself. Why must it be a contest?

You assume too much. I am not a black templars player. I don't care for some kind of 'balance'. I just wondered why only they could access it. With this apparent retcon, perhaps the BT are not applicable. But still. Say that a chapter actually did like the BT except that they were, like the Grey Knights, completely abandoning their past lives. Say that their memory was wiped and that they lived very zealously. Would they get superpowers too? If not, why?

Depends. Do they worship the God-Emperor as a Divine Being? Is he, to them, an actual god? The being who sees the entire galaxy, makes the stars burn and planets turn, who's divine plan can be seen in all things, but understood by no mortal?

Or is he just "greatest man to ever live"?

If the former? Possibly. If they entertain no thoughts of doubt.

If the latter? Not a chance.