Latest posts for the thread "Getting around the Runemaw Banner?"

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Ogre Kingdoms army book

When any enemy spell targeting a
unit with the Rune Maw is successfully cast, roll a D6. On a roll of a 2+, the caster must choose a new target for the spell. If no other target is available (because no other target is in range or all eligible units have already been targeted, for example), then the spell is wasted but still counts as having been cast. Spells that do not specifically target the unit are not affected by the Rune Maw.

BRB p. 99

COMBINED UNITS
Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit (including any other characters that have joined that unit) are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed here.

For the Rune Maw to trigger, there are two operable conditions that must be met:
A) The unit with the Rune Maw must be SPECIFICALLY TARGETED; and
B) An enemy spell targeting the Rune Maw is SUCCESSFULLY CAST.

So obviously any time you target the unit directly with a Hex or Direct Damage spell the Rune Maw triggers. However, what about if you target the unit INdirectly? Here are some fringe scenarios that I think bring up some ambiguities.

1: Targeting a character/model WITHIN the unit

Spells like Spirit Leech target an individual enemy model, "even a character within a unit." The question here is two-fold:

a) does the Rune Maw even trigger? The spell is targeting a model WITHIN the unit, not the unit itself.

b) if the Rune Maw does trigger, and successfully rolls a 2+, can you then target another model within the same unit? Rune Maw only states that you must select a new target, and as per the rules of the spell each individual character is its own separate eligible target

2: Bubble spells

A hex that targets the unit directly is obviously "specifically targeting" the unit with the Rune Maw. But what about a unit that targets each unit within the range? Does "specifically" mean JUST the unit with the Rune Maw, or does it just mean that it must "explicitly" target a unit (i.e. not a template weapon that is thrown at the unit, or a spell that affects units coming within a certain range, etc.) by saying "target" in the spell text.

If so, then what happens when you roll a 2+? Rune Maw states that the "spell is wasted" but "still counts as having been cast." Would that mean then that all units BUT the Rune Maw unit is affected?

3: Bouncing spells

The best two examples here are Light of Death from the Tomb Kings' Casket of Souls, and Chain Lightning from the Lore of Heaven.

Light of Death is a direct damage spell with a range of 48"...Once the Leadership test has been resolved, roll a D6: on a 3 or more, choose another unengaged enemy unit within 6" of the initial target - the tortured souls leap to that unit, which must also suffer the effects of the Light of Death spell. Keep rolling for further victims...until the roll is failed or there are no more viable targets. A unit can only be the target of Light of Death once per Magic phase.

Chain Lightning is a direct damage spell with a range of 24". Chain Lightning causes D6 Strength 6 hits. Once the damage has been resolved, roll a D6: on a 3 or more, choose an enemy within 6" of the initial target - the lightning leaps to that unit, which suffers D6 Strength 6 hits. Keep rolling for further victims (each within 6" of the last target struck), until the roll is failed or there are no more viable targets (a unit can only be the target of Chain Lightning once per Magic phase).

The wording on the two is almost identical.

So the question here is WHEN does the Rune Maw trigger? If it only triggers when a spell "is successfully cast," then by the time a spell jumps it's too late. In other words, the Rune Maw only triggers if a spell is targeting the unit WHEN it is cast, not if it changed to target the unit AFTER it is cast.

Conversely, if it triggers upon targeting then the solution is simple: if you try to bounce it triggers the Rune Maw and on a 2+ you can't bounce there, and must pick another unit within 6" of the last eligible target. There's an argument to be made that this doesn't "count" as targeting the Rune Maw banner for the "once per magic phase" restriction, but it isn't a very strong one IMHO.

Thoughts? Opinions? My take is that you get one crack at each eligible target within the Rune Maw unit (each protected on a separate 2+ roll), that bubble spells affect then as normal and don't trigger the banner, and that you can only attempt to target the Rune Maw unit once with a bouncing spell, and it can't be targeted on a 2+ regardless of whether it is a bounce or initial targeting doing so. For what that's worth, at least.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

thedarkavenger — GMT

The Rune maw triggers when you cast a spell targetting that unit. Or any model within it, as they are considered to be part of that unit. This includes characters.

Bubble spells target all units within the bubble, I think. Not too sure about it though.

As for Chain Lightning, the unit it bounces to becomes the target. Though it doesn't specifically state it. You'd have to be pretty gamey to argue it. You target the unit you do damage to. It's still a grey area though.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

thedarkavenger wrote:
The Rune maw triggers when you cast a spell targetting that unit. Or any model within it, as they are considered to be part of that unit. This includes characters.

Bubble spells target all units within the bubble, I think. Not too sure about it though.

As for Chain Lightning, the unit it bounces to becomes the target. Though it doesn't specifically state it. You'd have to be pretty gamey to argue it. You target the unit you do damage to. It's still a grey area though.

1) I agree. But can the "new target" you select be another character within the same unit? Each is an eligible target as per the spell (say, Spirit Leech). There does not appear to be any restriction against picking another target in the same unit.

2) They do indeed target each enemy unit in range. The question is whether that counts as "SPECIFICALLY" targeting the unit with the Rune Maw banner.

3) I would agree that chain lightning targets the unit. The question is whether that triggers the banner, or whether the banner only triggers on the initial targeting. The operable phrase is: "When a spell targeting [the unit] is successfully cast." When it was cast it was targeting a different unit, can it still trigger now?

Moreover, is it "specifically" targeting a unit to cast it against one and bounce it to another.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

1. No, because even though the spell targets models, the rune maw specifically says Unit. You targeted a model in the UNIT, rune maw says this unit is now safe and you can't target it again. Regardless if there are 23948 models/targets in the unit. A spell might target guys with funny hats, but Rune Maw protects a whole unit.

2. Run Maw blocks it. Spells that bubble all in a range still "specifically targets" the unit. It just happens to specifically target multiple units. Specifically target doesn't mean it can only hit one. I just looked up High Magic Drain Magic and it says "the wizard can...have this spell target all units..." Rune Maw would just block the unit with the banner. The only situation where it totally kills the spell is if there are no other targets. If there are no other targets in the AE (first off, why did you cast the AE version?) then the fact it dies, doesn't matter. If there are 2 targets, the Rune blocks on 2+ but the other target is..."specifically targeted." So nothing happens to it and the spell continues.

3. They become the target and are rolled against. Rune Maw kicks in and can block. But in the case of casket, it could then bounce to another target, if it's still within range. Because it didn't actually fail its casket-y-ness, it never got a chance to roll.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

1. Rune Maw just says "select a new target." For snipes the MODEL is the target, not the UNIT. There doesn't seem to be anything in the spell that turns the entire unit into a single target for the purposes of snipe spells. BRB 99 is the only way that you can make that argument, but I feel it's too much of a stretch.

2. I agreed with you initially, but having read it a few more times I'm not so sure. Again, it's whether "specifically" means ONLY or EXPLICITLY. Bubble spells "explicitly" target all units within their range, but they do not ONLY target a single unit in the way a non-bubble hex does. The trouble is that specifically technically means both...

3. The wording of the bounce actually means you do it the other way around. Roll a die for the casket bounce. If it bounces select the Rune Maw unit. Roll a d6 for the Rune Maw unit to see if another target must be selected.

I'd say you still count as having targeted by Light of Death though, so you can't keep attempting to bounce to the Rune Maw unit after each successful bounce.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

1. No one cares about the spell. The Rune Maw, which is army book, protects the UNIT. Once the Rune Maw has blocked the unit, the unit is protected. A model is a subsection of unit. Like if someone had a banner that protected your entire army, if you attacked a model, you wouldn't say that isn't covered by protecting the entire army.

2. You have to specifically target them. Otherwise they won't have any effects. As soon as you try and resolve the spell, they are the target of that spell...specifically. E.g., you cast AE spell which covers 3 units. Each one has to take a test. You go to the first unit for the test--BANG, it is now specifically targeted. The spells themselves say they apply to all enemy units--that is who the specific targets are. They just happen to be multiples. Who are the specific targets: ogre group 1, gnoblar group 2, sabertusk 3. Pit of Shades comes to mind. How Pit is different than #1 when they both end up attacking models is, IMHO, pit never points at a unit or sub-unit. It targets an amorphous space.

3. For the initial the rune blocks but doesn't kill the spell. Then yeah, roll first to see if it bounces. Of course you can't bounce back to the rune maw, it specifically says you can't.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

1) Rune Maw doesn't say "on a 2+ the unit cannot be targeted." It states "on a 2+ the caster must choose a new target." That's a very different thing.

The banner DOES indeed protect the unit, and the individual characters are each part of that unit. But the Rune Maw does not specify that the unit can only be targeted once. Each character is its own target, and Rune Maw protects them all individually.

2) That is one interpretation of "specifically." The other is that you must target THAT unit SPECIFICALLY, as in you must target it and only it. Spells that affect it AND other units do not target it SPECIFICALLY: the they target a bunch of units which just happens to INCLUDE the unit with the Rune Maw banner.

My point is that the word choice is ambiguous, and yours is only one of two equally viable interpretations.

3) You can't bounce back because of the Casket's targeting limitation, not the Rune Maw. The Rune Maw's only effect is to force you to select a new target. If it wasn't for the targeting limitation you could test against the Rune Maw every time you try to bounce the casket/chain lightning.

Again, you seem to be reading into Rune Maw an effect that "protects" the unit on a 2+. That is not what the banner does. The banner merely forces you to select another target.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

Grey Templar — GMT

If you pick another model in the unit, you haven't picked a new target. You from targeting unit A(model A) to targeting unit A(model B)

You are in violation of the rules if you do that. You must pick a totally different target.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Grey Templar wrote:
If you pick another model in the unit, you haven't picked a new target. You from targeting unit A(model A) to targeting unit A(model B)

You are in violation of the rules if you do that. You must pick a totally different target.

No, because spells like Spirit Leech targets a model. The target is the model, not the unit. So each unit can have multiple targets, even though it's the same unit.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

Grey Templar — GMT

No, you've targeted a model who happens to be in a unit. So you have targeted that unit, a specific subsection of the unit but it still doesn't change that.

You cannot pick another model in the unit with the Runemaw because you haven't changed your target(you've only partially changed it)

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

"on a 2+ the unit cannot be targeted." It states "on a 2+ the caster must choose a new target." That's a very different thing.

That's not all what it says. It says "targeting a unit with the rune maw." Attacking a model is doing just that. Because a model is in the unit. This is a very basic BRB concept that you quoted in your first post.

SPECIFICALLY, as in you must target it and only it.

Specify does not imply, in any way, singular. If you specify the ingredients of a taco it doesn't mean there is just one ingredient, it just means you list them. Specifically is an adverb, it modifies target. How do you target? By listing the specifics. And at some point you have to say, "that unit with the rune maw," because that is how it is specified. There is no way in the game (that I know of) you can do an all units spell and not at some point address, specifically, each unit affected. If you know of a way, I'm all ears. But if it's an "all units in X inches" you have to go one by one and work out the effects.

3. The banner says the same spell cannot be used on it if you roll a 2+. It's not a different spell if it bounces a thousand billion times, it's still the same one. If you roll a 2+, you can't target the Rune Maw. It say when the spell is cast successfully, not when the spell is bounced. It's a single test/spell.
1. Was the spell cast successfully? yes/no. if yes
2. Do you target the Maw? yes/no. if yes
3. Do you roll 2+ yes -->can't target the maw unit, if it bounces and come back to the run maw, you've already rolled a 2+ after doing steps 1,2. It can't target this unit. The language of steps 1-3 is for single spell and single cast. It can't come back.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

I think you're both confusing the triggering mechanism with the effect. Rune Maw goes off when you target the unit, but its EFFECT is merely to force you to choose a new target. While targeting a model WITHIN a unit is certainly "targeting the unit" for the purposes of triggering the Rune Maw, each other character within the unit is still a separate target for the spell. You can't, for instance, cast Spirit Leech at the BSB and then say you actually want it to target the General after the fact. They're separate targets for the spell, and thus eligible targets once the Rune Maw has bounced them.

As for "specifically":

spe·cif·ic [spi-sif-ik] Show IPA
adjective
1.
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.
2.
specified, precise, or particular: a specific sum of money.
3.
peculiar or proper to somebody or something, as qualities, characteristics, effects, etc.: His specific problems got him into trouble.
4.
of a special or particular kind.
5.
concerned specifically with the item or subject named (used in combination): The Secretary addressed himself to crop-specific problems.

The definition I'm thinking of is "specified, precise, or particular."

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

And I think you're trying to TFG a 60 point banner that can only be wielded by the BSB (and thus costs even more than your whole casket) into something pretty crappy.

Rune Maw goes off when you target the unit, but its EFFECT is merely to force you to choose a new target.

No, that's not what happens. It goes off IF the spell is successfully cast, and IF you target the unit with the spell. And IF the owner rolls a 2+ you need a new target. The trigger isn't targeting, it's the very first sentence: "spell targeting Rune UNIT..is successfully cast." All of that has to be true. If you target the rune unit and cast. Period. If you target the first guy, the last guy, the guy's cousin, it's still the rune unit and is cast; 2+ and you need to move on.

Again, it's an adverb. It modifies target. It isn't a standalone word. And I already went over this. The rune maw unit is indeed the precise target of a spell hit by an AE attack that targets multiple units. In fact there are multiple precise targets. In the example above Specific sum of money isn't singular or plural. Sum is. If you said specific sumS of money that could be $5, $10, $20.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Ogre generals don't buy a BSB just for the banner; they buy it to get rerolls on their crappy leadership. Not to mention that the guy is a combat monster.

No, that's not what happens. It goes off IF the spell is successfully cast, and IF you target the unit with the spell. And IF the owner rolls a 2+ you need a new target. The trigger isn't targeting, it's the very first sentence: "spell targeting Rune UNIT..is successfully cast." All of that has to be true. If you target the rune unit and cast. Period. If you target the first guy, the last guy, the guy's cousin, it's still the rune unit and is cast; 2+ and you need to move on.

I follow what you're saying, but still disagree that it's the correct interpretation.

You can split the operation of the runemaw banner into two parts: trigger and effect.

The TRIGGER of the banner is that a unit containing the banner is targeted by a spell that is successfully cast. The EFFECT of the banner is that the caster must select a new target on a 2+.

I follow what you're saying: that "when a spell targets the unit" and "select a new target" are connected statements, and ought to function to bounce the spell off the unit entirely. But I see that as an over-broad interpretation of the item. The plain meaning of the words "select a new target" allows that each eligible target for Spirit Leech can be that "new target." The general and the bsb aren't the same target. I will gladly concede that BRB 99 makes them a "part" of the unit in question, and so would gain the protection of the banner, but it doesn't lump them all in together as one target.

Again, it's an adverb. It modifies target. It isn't a standalone word. And I already went over this. The rune maw unit is indeed the precise target of a spell hit by an AE attack that targets multiple units. In fact there are multiple precise targets. In the example above Specific sum of money isn't singular or plural. Sum is. If you said specific sumS of money that could be $5, $10, $20.

Imagine 10 targets on a wall, and you with an automatic rifle. You could satisfy the instructions to "hit target C" by just spraying at the wall and hitting every target, including C. However if you were told to hit "specifically target C," the instructions suggest that you must hit target C and target C alone. Similar to hit 'precisely' target C.

Now you could also interpret that as "hit explicitly target C," which you can ALSO satisfy by hitting every target, which is the interpretation that you're putting forth. Both are valid interpretations. However, in the latter instance you run into a circumstance where the Rune Maw makes the spell "wasted" on a 2+, even though it would continue to function. When choosing between several competing interpretations of a rule, the preference is generally to shy away from any interpretation that renders any section meaningless. A bubble spell isn't "wasted" if it affects every unit save the Rune Maw unit, so preference should go to the reading that the Rune Maw grants no protection against bubble spells.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

Yes, they buy a magic banner for the...wait for it...magic. Otherwise they will save themselves 60pts and make their "combat monster" vastly more monsterly with those points (or 50 of them).

You can split the operation of the runemaw banner into two parts: trigger and effect.

You certainly could. But the book doesn't. It's one sentence without a single comma. It is one thought/action. If you want to split it, you are arbitrarily choosing to split a sentence. That's not how English works.

If the girl you have a crush on says:

"I would love you if you cut off your head and set yourself on fire."

That is one sentence. It does not mean that woman loves you. Unfortunately, the other half of that sentence is tied to the first. It is one thought/condition. You should find a new girl...

"specifically target C," the instructions suggest that you must hit target C and target C alone.

No, that is exactly what it doesn't mean. You need to brush up on your English. If I specifically hit target C, D, E, F, I have still hit C. Specifically has no implication of exclusion and singularity. C, D, E, F are all specific. If I hit C and D did I hit C? Yes. C was specifically named and I hit it. D was never mentioned. Whether I hit it or not, it wasn't in the request. If I hit the wall 30 times before hitting C, I still specifically hit C. I also hit the air in between me and C. I hit a lot of things. But if I hit C, I satisfied the condition.

Both are valid interpretations.

No, they aren't. One is what the word actually means and one isn't.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

It's a conditional statement. IF the trigger happens, THEN the effect happens. In this case, IF the unit is targeted, THEN you roll a d6. IF the result is 2+, THEN the caster must pick a new target.

Your example is exactly the same. IF you cut your hand off AND set yourself on fire, THEN the woman will love you. Did you not have to take logic in college?

No, that is exactly what it doesn't mean. You need to brush up on your English. If I specifically hit target C, D, E, F, I have still hit C. Specifically has no implication of exclusion and singularity. C, D, E, F are all specific. If I hit C and D did I hit C? Yes. C was specifically named and I hit it. D was never mentioned. Whether I hit it or not, it wasn't in the request. If I hit the wall 30 times before hitting C, I still specifically hit C. I also hit the air in between me and C. I hit a lot of things. But if I hit C, I satisfied the condition.

You're hitting target C but you are not hitting "precisely" target C. "Precision" being one of the definitions of "specific" that I referenced above. The intimation being, of course, that you need more than just the word "target" in a spell's text to trigger the Rune Maw banner.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

bobmgee — GMT

I understand where pirate ninja is coming from but to simple.

1. You cast a spell on billy the Irongut
2. Billy the iron guts friend bobby has the rune maw and rolls a 4
3. The spell must then choose a new target outside of the runemaw unit.
Billy is a part of the unit so the spell specifically targets the unit. Unlike the comet which doesn't specifically target the unit it targets one area of the board. How does this not make sense?

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Comet of course doesn't target the unit. Neither would magical vortexes.

However, the question about "specifically" comes up for bubbled spells like boosted Soulblight. The wording of the spell is that it "targets all units within 24 inches."

So is that targeting the unit "specifically"? If specifically just means "explicitly," then yes it does: you only need the word "target" in a spell's text for the Rune Maw to trigger.

However, if the word "specifically" means that you must "precisely" target the unit, then the shotgun approach of targeting ALL units within a range doesn't "specifically" target it.

That's where the confusion lies: how do you interpret the word "specifically."

Considering the term in context, then following Duke's interpretation you would get the strange effect of the Rune Maw triggering off the spell and, on a 2+, rendering the spell "wasted." Except that it would also "still count as being cast," and would appear to function as per usual save that it doesn't affect the Rune Maw unit.

To me, it seems obvious that you ought to interpret the text in such a way as to avoid this strange functioning. That is, "target specifically" must refer only to spells that target the unit directly by selecting it as the target.

As for Spirit Leeching Billy the Irongut, here's the operation I propose:

1. You cast Spirit Leech on Billy the Irongut.
2. Billy is a character, and as per BRB 99 is considered "a part of a combined unit" with the rest of the ironguts. The spell is therefore targeting the unit by targeting one of its constituent components, and once successfully cast will trigger the Rune Maw. The Ogre player rolls a D6 and gets a 4.
3. The player casting Spirit Leech must now select a new target for his spell. His "old" target was Billy, but Bobby is standing next to Billy and has not yet been selected as a target. He satisfies the criterion of "new target," and can be selected.
4. This, once again, triggers the Rune Maw by targeting one of its constituent components.
5. Repeat this process until there are no more targets, or until you select a target outside the unit.

A unit like this one would have 4 eligible targets inside of it, by my estimation. 1) the general, 2) the BSB, 3) the unit champion, and 4) a rank-and-file model. Rank-and-file are indistinguishable, so I don't think you could continue selecting each individual irongut. But I don't see why Billy and Bobby wouldn't be considered separate and distinct targets, seeing as how Spirit Leech targets models instead of units.

That is, because BRB 99 only states that characters are considered part of a combined unit, not that they are considered a single target for spells. Rune Maw makes you pick a "new target," but it's too much of a stretch to interpret the "old target" as the unit and everything inside of it.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

bobmgee — GMT

I think there's a tiny bit of ambiguity but its pretty clear what it means. And I think people get too tied up in rules as written and I think any tourney you went too would tell you to target a different unit not model. I think you're trying to find a way around something too much. Anyone with a brain knows what the rune maw banner is meant to do. If you hate it that much just get heavens and comet them.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

It's a conditional statement. IF the trigger happens

Part of the if, the very first sentence, is the spell is cast. You can only cast a spell once. It is the same sentence as targeting. You are trying as a trooper TFG to split a single sentence into multiple events and the item doesn't. It's not IF cast. IF Target. IF 2+. It's:

IF cast on target UNIT

It is impossible to do that more than once for the same spell.

You're hitting target C but you are not hitting "precisely" target C.

Of course you are. Go to the dictionary. Or go to an English teacher. First off, it's specifically. Don't rewrite the wording. Second, as stated numerous times, that adverb in no way implies singular. This adverb is a modifier of target. It can't be singular or plural. Target isn't even singular. It is a verb. If you shoot(verb) a gun, it doesn't mean once or a thousand times. If you shoot a gun and target a tree, you have no idea how many bullets will be in that tree. If you shoot a gun and specifically target a tree, you may still have a thousand bullets in the trees around it even though you were specifically targeting one. But you still specifically targeted the tree. If you want to see the sentence diagrammed go to:

http://1aiway.com/nlp4net/services/enparser/

Type in:
Spells that do not specifically target the unit are not affected by the rune maw.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

DukeRustfield wrote:
It's a conditional statement. IF the trigger happens

Part of the if, the very first sentence, is the spell is cast. You can only cast a spell once. It is the same sentence as targeting. You are trying as a trooper TFG to split a single sentence into multiple events and the item doesn't. It's not IF cast. IF Target. IF 2+. It's:

IF cast on target UNIT

It is impossible to do that more than once for the same spell.

Now you're just being purposely dense.

There are two sentences in operation here. The first is the condition: "[w]hen any enemy spell targeting a unit with the Rune Maw is successfully cast, roll a D6." Then there's a period, indicating a new sentence. That second sentence is the effect of the item, that triggers when the condition from the previous sentence is met. It reads: "[o]n a roll of a 2+, the caster must choose a new target for the spell."

Spirit leech is a spell that targets an individual model, "even a character within a unit." That is the "target" that has been selected for that spell. The target is not the "unit" with the Rune Maw banner, though page 99 of the BRB operates to have that individual character considered a part of the unit "for all rules purposes." So yes, when you target the BSB you are targeting the unit indirectly.

But that still doesn't mean that they are, unambiguously, all made into one single target for the purposes of Rune Maw. When I "successfully cast the spell" I could do so targeting the BSB. I could do so targeting the general. I could do so targeting the unit champion, or a rank-and-file model. Each of those is a separate and distinct target, for a spell that singles out solo models.

You're hitting target C but you are not hitting "precisely" target C.

Of course you are. Go to the dictionary. Or go to an English teacher. First off, it's specifically. Don't rewrite the wording. Second, as stated numerous times, that adverb in no way implies singular. This adverb is a modifier of target. It can't be singular or plural. Target isn't even singular. It is a verb. If you shoot(verb) a gun, it doesn't mean once or a thousand times. If you shoot a gun and target a tree, you have no idea how many bullets will be in that tree. If you shoot a gun and specifically target a tree, you may still have a thousand bullets in the trees around it even though you were specifically targeting one. But you still specifically targeted the tree. If you want to see the sentence diagrammed go to:

http://1aiway.com/nlp4net/services/enparser/

Type in:
Spells that do not specifically target the unit are not affected by the rune maw.

Or you could just stop being a dense, condescending donkey-cave. Yes it's a fething adverb. No it does not imply singular. Nor does it need to. It suggests something MORE than mere targeting, a level of direct, deliberate, and precise targeting that you don't get with a bubble cast. There is more than one meaning for the word "specifically," and not all of them support your contention that a spell need only have the word "target" in its text to apply.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

When I "successfully cast the spell" I could do so targeting the BSB. I could do so targeting the general. I could do so targeting the unit champion, or a rank-and-file model. Each of those is a separate and distinct target, for a spell that singles out solo models.

That's super cool. But the Rune Maw (and BRB) doesn't care. You are targeting the Unit, which the Maw protects.

---Just answer: is the model (or whatever target) in a "Unit with the Rune Maw"?

Because that is the wording. And it's pretty obvious.

Do you know an example of specifically? All enemy units within 18." That is a specification.

Anything that has any defining characteristic whatsoever is a specification. Even saying "All" is a specification. "None" is a specification. Half. Whatever. If you don't say anything, then it is...wait for it...unspecified. That's the ONLY time you have that condition, when nothing whatsoever is said/indicated on the subject or target.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

DukeRustfield wrote:
Just answer: is the model (or whatever target) in a "Unit with the Rune Maw"?

Because that is the wording. And it's pretty obvious.

Yes, the character is in the unit with the Rune Maw banner. By targeting a constituent component of the unit you activate the banner, and gain its protection.

But the BSB is just one of several viable targets within the unit. The Rune Maw's effect is to force you to "choose another target," not another unit. The BSB and General are each different targets for Spirit Leech. Once the banner has bounced you off the one, is the other not a "new target," using the plainest meaning of the words?

If the wording was "...then the unit containing the Rune Maw banner cannot be targeted by that spell, and the caster must select a new target..." then yours would unambiguously be the correct interpretation. However it just says "select a new target," and each subsequent character could easily be considered a "new target."

Do you know an example of specifically? All enemy units within 18." That is a specification.

Anything that has any defining characteristic whatsoever is a specification. Even saying "All" is a specification. "None" is a specification. Half. Whatever. If you don't say anything, then it is...wait for it...unspecified. That's the ONLY time you have that condition, when nothing whatsoever is said/indicated on the subject or target.

spe·cif·ic adjective

1
a : constituting or falling into a specifiable category
b : sharing or being those properties of something that allow it to be referred to a particular category

2
a : restricted to a particular individual, situation, relation, or effect
b : exerting a distinctive influence (as on a body part or a disease)

3
: free from ambiguity : accurate

4
: of, relating to, or constituting a species and especially a biological species

5
a : being any of various arbitrary physical constants and especially one relating a quantitative attribute to unit mass, volume, or area
b : imposed at a fixed rate per unit (as of weight or count) — compare ad valorem

I bolded the definition I believe to be relevant for this circumstance. The example is particularly illustrative. A disease that targets all mammals, including horses, is not "a disease specific to horses." In the same sense that a spell that targets all units, including the unit containing the Rune Maw, is not a spell that "specifically targets" the Rune Maw unit.

Now the Rune Maw unit does fall into the "specifiable category" of units targeted by the spell. That is also a viable interpretation of the word "specifically" within that context. Is it the BEST interpretation? I think not.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

But the BSB is just one of several viable targets within the unit.

Doesn't matter.

The Rune Maw's effect is to force you to "choose another target," not another unit.

Yes, it does. Because target = unit. You keep forgetting that. The rune maw, in it's first sentence, defines what it is protecting, which is the entire unit. A UNIT contains the rune maw and has been targeted. You spell can target anything it wants, but it's still a subsection of unit. That is a BRB term. No amount of spell wording will change a fundamental BRB concept that there is a thing called units which contain model(s).

A disease that targets all mammals, including horses, is not "a disease specific to horses.

That's not the right wording. A disease that specifically targets all mammals is indeed a disease that specifically targets all horses.

It would be unusual to describe a disease like that. But if the specification is mammals, that specification encompasses horses. Horses are therefore specifically targeted.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

Yes, it does. Because target = unit. You keep forgetting that. The rune maw, in it's first sentence, defines what it is protecting, which is the entire unit. A UNIT contains the rune maw and has been targeted. You spell can target anything it wants, but it's still a subsection of unit. That is a BRB term. No amount of spell wording will change a fundamental BRB concept that there is a thing called units which contain model(s).

The BRB functions to make units, and things called "combined units" made up of units and character models. It does not operate to make an entire unit a single target for spells like spirit leech, which specifically targets a single model "even a character within a unit." The hard relationship you're trying to draw here is your own invention. Characters are treated as part of a single combined unit, but they remain characters.

As for the Rune Maw banner in particular, yes it protects the entire unit. But its protection is limited to forcing you to select a "new" target. The target, in this case, is not the unit. The target is the character, who is a subsection of the unit. There is more than one subsection, and thus there is more than one target.

It may trigger the Rune Maw banner multiple times, but each subsequent character is still a "new" target, because the old target was the preceding character. You don't just target the unit every time, you target the individual character. It's not the same thing, BRB p. 99 or no.

It would be unusual to describe a disease like that. But if the specification is mammals, that specification encompasses horses. Horses are therefore specifically targeted.

If you're not going to read what I have to say then stop responding. "A specifiable category" is just one of several definitions for "specific," the rest of which I quoted above from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. It is not the only definition, nor is it the one that makes the most sense within the context of the rule. The other meaning for "specific," being "restricted to a particular individual, situation, relation, or effect," makes far more sense in this context. A spell "specifically targeting the RMB unit" is a spell "restricted to a particular individual," i.e. whose target is restricted in scope to the unit with the Rune Maw banner. A spell that hits all units in a range like a shotgun blast isn't "restricting its target to the unit."

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

No, there are models within units. Models can be characters. Models can be anything modely. A single character is a unit. A character on monster is a unit. On the table everything is a unit. A unit comprised completely of characters is a unit. There is no such thing as a combined unit as it would be completely untargetable by any spell, CC, or rule that targets units. It's not page 90 it's page 5.

The models that make up your WH army must be organized into units.

No model exists in game without being in a unit. For instance, if you did a sniper attack on a character in a unit that has been given a ward save via spell, that character still has a ward. Even though you're attacking a model, that model is in a unit and that unit has a protective spell.

"A specifiable category" is just one of several definitions for "specific," the rest of which I quoted above from the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Cool! I bet it means neat stuff in swahili. And I like how you use one definition for one part of the sentence and another for a different part. I'm using the language in the book.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

DukeRustfield wrote:
"A specifiable category" is just one of several definitions for "specific," the rest of which I quoted above from the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Cool! I bet it means neat stuff in swahili. And I like how you use one definition for one part of the sentence and another for a different part. I'm using the language in the book.

...are...you even reading what I type? Or are you just trolling me? I refuse to believe that somebody could actually be as dense as you're acting right now.

Go back and actually read the words I've typed down. Then maybe we can have a discussion.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

You've made up wording that don't exist in the spell or item and tried to pretend it matters. You aren't typing YMDC anymore it's Proposed Rules. Which is fine. But you know, it's just a whole different subforum.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

cawizkid — GMT

sniper Spells allow you to pick a model in a unit, Once Characters join a Unit they become part of that Unit - BRB, they are no longer individual units. The Run Maw banner states that on a 2+ you must select another "unit" or the spell is wasted. A character in a unit is not a Unit onto itself, it becomes part of the group.

I beleve the FAQ covers the bubble spells but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

HawaiiMatt — GMT

From the FAQ
Can Chain Lightning Leap into a unit engaged in close combat?
Answer: Yes

IMO, spells that hit all units in range are treated as targeting all (beast magic lore attribute FAQ).
Spells that target 1 unit, and then go on to affect additional targets do not seem to abide by "Target" rules.

-Matt

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

For the purposes of casket and chain bounces, that's at least slightly more reasonable. Because the banner says the target/cast/unit/banner is all one sentence. You've already cast at that point and it's not the same choose a target as in the spell rules. Though the initial cast is, of course. And you can't bounce back to the same target.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

The Shadow — GMT

Situations one and two are pretty clear cut, and the unit is targeted in both situations, for reasons others have stated.

I think the third is a bit more iffy though. A lot of people are assuming that the "bounced upon" unit becomes a target, but nowhere (to my knowledge) do the rules actually state that. An argument could be made for the original unit being the target, and any other units hit being mere secondary effects.

Let's say we had a spell that did the following:

Target unit takes 2D6 S4 hits. If any models in the target unit are slain, they explode in a burst of flame and all units within 6" take D3 S4 hits.

If the Runemaw unit was one of the D3 S4 spells in this situation, I think it's fairly clear that the banner wouldn't activate. They're not a target, they merely suffer secondary effects of the spell.

So, it depends on the wording of the spell in question for the purposes of situation three. Are the secondary units targets, or do they just suffer additional effects of the original spell?

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

cawizkid wrote:
sniper Spells allow you to pick a model in a unit, Once Characters join a Unit they become part of that Unit - BRB, they are no longer individual units. The Run Maw banner states that on a 2+ you must select another "unit" or the spell is wasted. A character in a unit is not a Unit onto itself, it becomes part of the group.

I beleve the FAQ covers the bubble spells but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Rune Maw banner states that you must select another "target" or the spell is wasted, NOT UNIT. The word "unit" is used twice in reference to how the banner is triggered (first and last sentence), and once as part of an example ("if all other eligible units have been targeted.")

As for the BRB, you are correct that characters that join units cease to be units of their own and become a PART of the unit they've joined. That does not, however, prevent them from being a "target" for a spell. Sniper spells target models. That makes them a "target" for that spell. Rune Maw refers to targets, and picking new targets.

FAQ doesn't cover bubble spells.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

HawaiiMatt — GMT

So it looks like you can bounce in a chain lightning or a caskets light without triggering the runemaw.
You can snipe a characters and if the runemaw triggers, choose another target of the snipe from the same unit (which would cause another runemaw roll of 2+).

Bubble spells are described as targeting all units in the area of effect, so runemaw would trigger... but since you don't choose a target it gets mess.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

You can't snipe the rune twice. The rune says targeting a unit with the rune maw. The lowest level the Rune language goes is unit. The spell is wasted if all eligible units have been targeted.

Again, it's cute the spell says model. But the Rune Maw says unit. The Rune protects the entire unit, which encompasses every model per BRB p. 5. Therefore you have to target another unit. If you ignore the fact it is protecting the unit of the Rune Maw, then any spell can be targeted infinite times against the Rune Maw until it finally fails, regardless of whether it's sniper or DD or magic missile.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

1) There are no "eligible units" in a bubble cast: everything in the range gets hit. Eligibility is a requirement for spells with direct targets. That language is also from an example, not the main body of the item's rules. Rune Maw also requires that it be targeted "specifically," a word that has multiple meanings in this context.

2) You keep repeating the same thing like a broken record. For your argument to hold true BRB p 99 must operate to make the entire unit a single target for the purposes of both Rune Maw and Spirit Leech. That is certainly an interpretation that is available, but it is by no means unassailable. Page 99 merely says that a character and the unit are to be "treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes." That makes the ogre unit and all characters in it a "single combined unit," but not necessarily a "single combined target."

You couldn't target the unit over and over again with, say, Soulblight. That spell targets the unit directly, and doing so would run directly contrary to the wording of the Rune Maw. But a spell like Spirit Leech does not target the unit directly, only a part of it. That leaves open the interpretation that targeting a character in the unit is not "targeting the unit specifically" or that each character is a separate "target" for the purposes of the bounce.

Re:Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

2) You keep repeating the same thing like a broken record. For your argument to hold true BRB p 99 must operate to make the entire unit a single target for the purposes of both Rune Maw and Spirit Leech

Because you apparently can't read page 5 of the BRB and the actual text of the rune maw.

The models that make up your Warhammer army must be organized into 'units'. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together.

A unit consists of 1 or more models that are arranged...with each other.

Once formed into a unit, the models move and fight as a single entity for the rest of the battle.

If a spell attacks a rank or a model or a unit, the Rune Maw would still protect them. This is how logic works. You are targeting a sub portion that is protected.

If someone steps on your 2nd little toe, but you are wearing steel boots that protect your entire foot, your 2nd little toe is protected. Because your toe is a component of your foot. If they then step on your big toe, guess what, it's still protected. Not sure how you're the only one who doesn't understand that, but it's on page 5. Not page 99. Not the text for the spell. Models are a part of units. Rune maw protects the unit.

If you have a warranty that covers your car [and has no specific exclusions], it also covers the engine. Sub < whole.

If an entire team is ejected from a game for unfair sportsmanship, the goalie has to leave too. Sub < whole.

If a platoon of soldiers is killed in an ambush. Private Joe Deadguy is also killed because was part of the platoon. Sub < whole.

There are zero instances where a model is not a unit. It is stated on page 5. A unit is ONE or more models. And once formed they stay formed.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

one unit =/= one target

Rune Maw may protect the whole unit, but the extent of its protection is to "pick a new target." Rune Maw Unit (General) and Rune Maw Unit (BSB) aren't unambiguously the same target.

Page 5 defines characters as separate units; it's page 99 that defines units with joined characters as "a single combined unit." Neither defines "a target" as "a unit."

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

DukeRustfield — GMT

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Page 5 defines characters as separate units; it's page 99 that defines units with joined characters as "a single combined unit." Neither defines "a target" as "a unit."

No, it doesn't.

Once formed into a unit, the models move and fight as a single entity for the rest of the battle.

There is no point when a model is ever placed on the game board. Ever. As soon as a character joins the board it is either a single unit or part of a unit. It is not a model. A single model is a unit. 50 models is a unit. Ten thousand models is a unit.

The extent of its protection is "a unit with the rune maw." In true TFG fashion you try and switch up when wording is valid or not. You tried to accuse me of "That language is also from an example, not the main body of the item's rules." but you did just that in trying to state when you had to choose a new target.

When any spell targeting a unit with the rune maw is successfully cast...

It is impossible to select a model that is in a unit with the rune maw and not have that take place. It then tells you to choose a new target unless, for example, "all eligible units have already been targeted." It was eligible. It was targeted. It failed. It's pretty damn clear.

So at this point, you're clearly just trying to make TK better while nerfing a 60 point magic BRB for TFG reasons. And don't understand the most basic concepts of the BRB and YMDC. So you get to join the angry teenage /ignores. I can't see you have anything of value to add to the forums.

Getting around the Runemaw Banner?

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath — GMT

DukeRustfield wrote:
So at this point, you're clearly just trying to make TK better while nerfing a 60 point magic BRB for TFG reasons. And don't understand the most basic concepts of the BRB and YMDC. So you get to join the angry teenage /ignores. I can't see you have anything of value to add to the forums.

Lol.

Well now that that's over, does anybody else have something to contribute?