Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For the purposes of casket and chain bounces, that's at least slightly more reasonable. Because the banner says the target/cast/unit/banner is all one sentence. You've already cast at that point and it's not the same choose a target as in the spell rules. Though the initial cast is, of course. And you can't bounce back to the same target.

Situations one and two are pretty clear cut, and the unit is targeted in both situations, for reasons others have stated.

I think the third is a bit more iffy though. A lot of people are assuming that the "bounced upon" unit becomes a target, but nowhere (to my knowledge) do the rules actually state that. An argument could be made for the original unit being the target, and any other units hit being mere secondary effects.

Let's say we had a spell that did the following:

Target unit takes 2D6 S4 hits. If any models in the target unit are slain, they explode in a burst of flame and all units within 6" take D3 S4 hits.

If the Runemaw unit was one of the D3 S4 spells in this situation, I think it's fairly clear that the banner wouldn't activate. They're not a target, they merely suffer secondary effects of the spell.

So, it depends on the wording of the spell in question for the purposes of situation three. Are the secondary units targets, or do they just suffer additional effects of the original spell?

cawizkid wrote:
sniper Spells allow you to pick a model in a unit, Once Characters join a Unit they become part of that Unit - BRB, they are no longer individual units. The Run Maw banner states that on a 2+ you must select another "unit" or the spell is wasted. A character in a unit is not a Unit onto itself, it becomes part of the group.


I beleve the FAQ covers the bubble spells but I do not have that in front of me right now.

Rune Maw banner states that you must select another "target" or the spell is wasted, NOT UNIT. The word "unit" is used twice in reference to how the banner is triggered (first and last sentence), and once as part of an example ("if all other eligible units have been targeted.")

As for the BRB, you are correct that characters that join units cease to be units of their own and become a PART of the unit they've joined. That does not, however, prevent them from being a "target" for a spell. Sniper spells target models. That makes them a "target" for that spell. Rune Maw refers to targets, and picking new targets.

FAQ doesn't cover bubble spells.

So it looks like you can bounce in a chain lightning or a caskets light without triggering the runemaw.
You can snipe a characters and if the runemaw triggers, choose another target of the snipe from the same unit (which would cause another runemaw roll of 2+).

Bubble spells are described as targeting all units in the area of effect, so runemaw would trigger... but since you don't choose a target it gets mess.

You can't snipe the rune twice. The rune says targeting a unit with the rune maw. The lowest level the Rune language goes is unit. The spell is wasted if all eligible units have been targeted.

Again, it's cute the spell says model. But the Rune Maw says unit. The Rune protects the entire unit, which encompasses every model per BRB p. 5. Therefore you have to target another unit. If you ignore the fact it is protecting the unit of the Rune Maw, then any spell can be targeted infinite times against the Rune Maw until it finally fails, regardless of whether it's sniper or DD or magic missile.

1) There are no "eligible units" in a bubble cast: everything in the range gets hit. Eligibility is a requirement for spells with direct targets. That language is also from an example, not the main body of the item's rules. Rune Maw also requires that it be targeted "specifically," a word that has multiple meanings in this context.

2) You keep repeating the same thing like a broken record. For your argument to hold true BRB p 99 must operate to make the entire unit a single target for the purposes of both Rune Maw and Spirit Leech. That is certainly an interpretation that is available, but it is by no means unassailable. Page 99 merely says that a character and the unit are to be "treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes." That makes the ogre unit and all characters in it a "single combined unit," but not necessarily a "single combined target."

You couldn't target the unit over and over again with, say, Soulblight. That spell targets the unit directly, and doing so would run directly contrary to the wording of the Rune Maw. But a spell like Spirit Leech does not target the unit directly, only a part of it. That leaves open the interpretation that targeting a character in the unit is not "targeting the unit specifically" or that each character is a separate "target" for the purposes of the bounce.

2) You keep repeating the same thing like a broken record. For your argument to hold true BRB p 99 must operate to make the entire unit a single target for the purposes of both Rune Maw and Spirit Leech

Because you apparently can't read page 5 of the BRB and the actual text of the rune maw.

The models that make up your Warhammer army must be organized into 'units'. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together.

A unit consists of 1 or more models that are arranged...with each other.

Once formed into a unit, the models move and fight as a single entity for the rest of the battle.

If a spell attacks a rank or a model or a unit, the Rune Maw would still protect them. This is how logic works. You are targeting a sub portion that is protected.

If someone steps on your 2nd little toe, but you are wearing steel boots that protect your entire foot, your 2nd little toe is protected. Because your toe is a component of your foot. If they then step on your big toe, guess what, it's still protected. Not sure how you're the only one who doesn't understand that, but it's on page 5. Not page 99. Not the text for the spell. Models are a part of units. Rune maw protects the unit.

If you have a warranty that covers your car [and has no specific exclusions], it also covers the engine. Sub < whole.

If an entire team is ejected from a game for unfair sportsmanship, the goalie has to leave too. Sub < whole.

If a platoon of soldiers is killed in an ambush. Private Joe Deadguy is also killed because was part of the platoon. Sub < whole.

There are zero instances where a model is not a unit. It is stated on page 5. A unit is ONE or more models. And once formed they stay formed.

one unit =/= one target

Rune Maw may protect the whole unit, but the extent of its protection is to "pick a new target." Rune Maw Unit (General) and Rune Maw Unit (BSB) aren't unambiguously the same target.

Page 5 defines characters as separate units; it's page 99 that defines units with joined characters as "a single combined unit." Neither defines "a target" as "a unit."

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Page 5 defines characters as separate units; it's page 99 that defines units with joined characters as "a single combined unit." Neither defines "a target" as "a unit."

No, it doesn't.

Once formed into a unit, the models move and fight as a single entity for the rest of the battle.

There is no point when a model is ever placed on the game board. Ever. As soon as a character joins the board it is either a single unit or part of a unit. It is not a model. A single model is a unit. 50 models is a unit. Ten thousand models is a unit.

The extent of its protection is "a unit with the rune maw." In true TFG fashion you try and switch up when wording is valid or not. You tried to accuse me of "That language is also from an example, not the main body of the item's rules." but you did just that in trying to state when you had to choose a new target.

When any spell targeting a unit with the rune maw is successfully cast...

It is impossible to select a model that is in a unit with the rune maw and not have that take place. It then tells you to choose a new target unless, for example, "all eligible units have already been targeted." It was eligible. It was targeted. It failed. It's pretty damn clear.

So at this point, you're clearly just trying to make TK better while nerfing a 60 point magic BRB for TFG reasons. And don't understand the most basic concepts of the BRB and YMDC. So you get to join the angry teenage /ignores. I can't see you have anything of value to add to the forums.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
So at this point, you're clearly just trying to make TK better while nerfing a 60 point magic BRB for TFG reasons. And don't understand the most basic concepts of the BRB and YMDC. So you get to join the angry teenage /ignores. I can't see you have anything of value to add to the forums.

Lol.

Well now that that's over, does anybody else have something to contribute?