Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Do you mean keeper? Or LoC? Considering a keeper can't fly...

Slagmar wrote:
My 2k list is a bit different as I sacrifice 1 flyer for a powerful unit of dogs which from my games has been totally worth it once Belakor game into the game. Having automatic invisibility on the dogs with a herald makes that one unit that cannot be ignored and is super fast and in your opponent face right away.

Kairos Fateweaver
Herald of Khorne Lesser Reward Juggernaut

Pink Horrors x11
Pink Horrors x11

Flesh Hounds x10

Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2
Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2

Be'lakor
Cultists x10
Heldrake

1998

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's quite interesting. You seem a man in the know!

The funny thing is I copy most of my daemon lists off one of my buddies lol!!!

 Tonberry7 wrote:
OK thanks for all the tips, I've been convinced that fitting a drake in there is the way to go. Current list is as follows:

HQ
Fateweaver (300)
LoC - 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, ML3 (305)

TROOPS
Pink Horrors x10 (90)
Plaguebearersx10 (90)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), Flight, Armour, ML3 (335)
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Portalglyph), Flight, Armour, ML2 (310)

CSM ALLIED DETACHMENT
Be'lakor (350)
Cultists x10 (50)
Heldrake w Baleflamer (170)

Total 2000

I'm just not entirely sure which troop types to take (horrors, daemonettes or PB's) and whether or not to start them in reserve although I think perhaps I should. Also do you typically start Fateweaver in reserve in these type of lists?

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

If they can alpha your FMCS dead on turn one, which some armies can. Then you keep your FMCS off the table . It doesn't happen often but there are times when it's the right play.

Rolling biomancy is usually a bad call with your FMCS unless it's the mirror match. And then I'd only roll it once depending on my opponents army.

As for rolling a 3-4 with hallucinate , at the Tof invational, I did that to hulksmash 4 turns in a row on his guard blob lol

valace2 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

If they can alpha your FMCS dead on turn one, which some armies can. Then you keep your FMCS off the table . It doesn't happen often but there are times when it's the right play.

Rolling biomancy is usually a bad call with your FMCS unless it's the mirror match. And then I'd only roll it once depending on my opponents army.

As for rolling a 3-4 with hallucinate , at the Tof invational, I did that to hulksmash 4 turns in a row on his guard blob lol

I have seen others say the same thing about Biomancy, and I just don't understand why. What would you replace it with? By stacking Biomancy, you are very likely to draw the powers you need. Enfeeble, Iron Arm, Warp Speed, hell even Smite works on a daemon prince. On the off chance you roll Warp Speed and Iron Arm, your prince will carve through just about anything. A prince with Enfeeble will allow Fateweaver to chew through most things with Flickering Fire.

If I didn't have access to Be'Lakor I might take a prince and stack 3 telepathy powers. If I am facing hordes, I might throw Flickering Fire on a couple of them to whittle them down, but the other disciplines are just to random to take chances on. If you are going for divination, then a Lord of Change is the way to go, but I don't like the LOC because divination doesn't help daemons as much as some other armies. You will get into assault with your daemons at some points and they don't have enough shooting to make perfect timing that necessary. Prescience you can get from Fateweaver and they already have a 5+ invulnerable, so is the the chance to get a 4+ invulnerable better than the chance to get your prince eternal warrior or the chance to weaken your enemy. With Be'Lakor biomancy is the way to go on your princes.

As far as the alpha strike, look at it this way, most flying circus lists have 2-3 troops max. If they can alpha strike hard enough to kill your princes, they can wipe your fragile T3 5+ troops, and then you are still stuck waiting around for the princes to come in. They might come in on turn 2 or they might come in on turn 4. The only time I would keep my FMCs in reserve is if the table has absolutely no LOS blocking terrain.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

Its half the reason imo lol

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

Its half the reason imo lol

Oh really? You rate it that highly?!

valace2 wrote:
I like the LOC more for that extra wound than the T6. Tau with their plasma/fusion/missile pods/Riptide Weapons as well as scatter lasers from the Eldar and tesla weapons from the Necrons are all going to hurt an LOC. The thing that bothers me about the LOC is that he can't get armour, yes he can through a gift, but it's unreliable.

I just see divination being wasted on daemons, divination is more suited to a shooting army like marines/eldar and Tau.

I forget what is the 5th power on the divination tree?

valace2 wrote:
So precognition let's you reroll your 5+ invuln save. What is shooting that he needs rerolls, he is already BS6?.

Forewarning is slightly better than what he has now. I don't place as much stock in a 2++ on a prince, they are already very durable. You admit that you avoid assault and your daemons are being shot at with skyfire anyway, so what do you need the 2++ for?

I am with you on scriers gaze, the ability to guarantee that your troops don't hit the table until turn 4 is nice.

Misfortune would be nice but it's like enfeeble you have to get closer to use it and you don't like to get that close. Still good in conjunction with flickering fire.

You have to admit though that prescience and perfect timing are more suited to shooting armies.

The bigger problem though is that it is random. You could just as easily roll foreboding and be forced into prescience and then roll misfortune.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see precognition being pretty awesome. I'm right in think it's re roll any to hits? Including combat?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see precognition being pretty awesome. I'm right in think it's re roll any to hits? Including combat?

valace2 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see precognition being pretty awesome. I'm right in think it's re roll any to hits? Including combat?

Yep, prescience also allows rerolls to hit in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
So precognition let's you reroll your 5+ invuln save. What is shooting that he needs rerolls, he is already BS6?.

Forewarning is slightly better than what he has now. I don't place as much stock in a 2++ on a prince, they are already very durable. You admit that you avoid assault and your daemons are being shot at with skyfire anyway, so what do you need the 2++ for?

I am with you on scriers gaze, the ability to guarantee that your troops don't hit the table until turn 4 is nice.

Misfortune would be nice but it's like enfeeble you have to get closer to use it and you don't like to get that close. Still good in conjunction with flickering fire.

You have to admit though that prescience and perfect timing are more suited to shooting armies.

The bigger problem though is that it is random. You could just as easily roll foreboding and be forced into prescience and then roll misfortune.

Thats a chance ill take considering how important 3 of the 6 rolls are. Dont underestimate the ability to reroll a 3+ save and have a 4+ fnp on top of that, also rerolling to wound on flickerfire is fantastic. Forwarning is also huge cause it allows you to shove the loc in your opponents face on the ground with a 2+ rerollable and go kill me or I am going to murder a unit next turn. Something that fateweaver can't really do.

It's fun to throw Fateweaver into combat with a beat stick unit with that 2++ lol. I have done that a few times just for fun.

Not a guarantee that the LOC gets FNP. It's kind of funny, your play style seems very conservative but you are much more willing to take chances on gifts and powers.

valace2 wrote:
The guys I game with take it seriously but they don't all run seer councils, screamerstars, and O'Vesa stars. We have plenty of Necron, tau, and Eldar players though Sounds like you don't get in many casual games if that's what you face each time you game. My Tau are hardcore, but I like running my Imperial Fists as well and I wouldn't want them facing GT lists all the time.

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
The guys I game with take it seriously but they don't all run seer councils, screamerstars, and O'Vesa stars. We have plenty of Necron, tau, and Eldar players though Sounds like you don't get in many casual games if that's what you face each time you game. My Tau are hardcore, but I like running my Imperial Fists as well and I wouldn't want them facing GT lists all the time.

Sure different strokes for different folks, I think my last 9 games were ovessa x2, jetseerstar, tau, screamerstar, centurion star, sm bike army x2 and an ig blob. I don't usually break out the fmc list unless its to test for a gt, play in a gt, or play a highly competitive rtt. So thats where the disconnect is. I have no issue with playing casual games, I just have more fun playing competitive gt level games (they are always laid back so they are not like stressful or anything) I just like that level of competition. I totally understand thats not for everyone, but you can understand how the difference in our play style is reflective on our opponents. As odd as it sounds I just got into war machine so I usually play my casual games there.

valace2 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
The guys I game with take it seriously but they don't all run seer councils, screamerstars, and O'Vesa stars. We have plenty of Necron, tau, and Eldar players though Sounds like you don't get in many casual games if that's what you face each time you game. My Tau are hardcore, but I like running my Imperial Fists as well and I wouldn't want them facing GT lists all the time.

Sure different strokes for different folks, I think my last 9 games were ovessa x2, jetseerstar, tau, screamerstar, centurion star, sm bike army x2 and an ig blob. I don't usually break out the fmc list unless its to test for a gt, play in a gt, or play a highly competitive rtt. So thats where the disconnect is. I have no issue with playing casual games, I just have more fun playing competitive gt level games (they are always laid back so they are not like stressful or anything) I just like that level of competition. I totally understand thats not for everyone, but you can understand how the difference in our play style is reflective on our opponents. As odd as it sounds I just got into war machine so I usually play my casual games there.

Kind of funny considering how competitive war machine is, it's built for competitive play.