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So I'm planning on running an FMC list in the near future. I've not had much experience playing these lists but I gather the general approach is to stay in the air until later on, fly off the board a lot and play to the mission, not neccessarily trying to kill everything straight away. This list is for a 2000pt game. N.B. I don't need to provide for any AA coverage hence no lash prince.

HQ
Fateweaver (300)
LoC - 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, ML3 (305)

TROOPS
Pink Horrors x10 (90)
Pink Horrors x10 (90)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), 1x Greater, Flight, Armour, ML3 (355)
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Portalglyph), 1x Greater, Flight, Armour, ML3 (355)

FAST ATTACK
Screamers of Tzeentch x4 (100)

CSM ALLIED DETACHMENT
Be'lakor (350)
Cultists x10 (50)

Total 1995

When building the list I got to around 1895 and wasn't quite sure where to go. Common sense told ne to bulk up the troops a bit but I have 3 units plus the portal, so I put the screamers in to make it up to 1995, planning on using them as a mobile general harrassment unit and maybe target some light armour. Is this a good idea or should I instead:

a) put more troops units in or make a bigger troop unit (maybe 20 daemonettes instead of the PB's)
b) swap the screamers for 6x flesh hounds as an alternative harrasment unit
c) drop some ML's and try and fit a heldrake in (this is appealing but I don't want to nerf my FMC's too much)
d) something else

Any feedback appreciated or suggestions for tried and trusted 2k FMC lists

Drop Screamers, 2 greaters from Tzeentch Princes, and a Master level on the Portal Prince and that should net you a drake at 2k on the nose.

It sounds tempting. Is that trade definitely worth it do you think?

Yeah screamers are just giving something with that doesn't have skyfire to shoot at. The distraction provided by the drake will more than make up for the possible protection you'll be losing in the greater rewards

Always great to see another fmc player and I promise you the drake is worth it. I can't stress how many games the drake ends up killing more then most of the army. Watch one of my battle reports from a few months back and you will see that the drake killed more then my entire army combined!

Fmcs play differently then any army you have ever ran. I dont usually do anything until turn 3-4 most games. I think when I played a tau player lastnight, I didnt kill my 2nd unit until turn 6. If you play right you can take complete control of the game from very early on.

At 2k I used to run the following (had success with it, but tau was a very very hard match up, and ovessa star was almost unwinnable

Fateweavyer
Lord of change (ml3 2 greater, 1 lesser gift)
10 pbs with sgt
10 daemonetts with sgt
daemon prince (mot, lvl3 greater, exalted, armor, wings)
daemon prince (mot, lvl3 greater, exalted, armor, wings)
CSM prince (mot, armor, wings, gift of mutation, black mace)
cultists
drake

As I said it struggled vs ovessa star and tautau. I have been playing 1850 mostly lately, but if I was to go back to 2k I think id run the following right now

Fateweaver
Keeper of secerts (ml2 2 greater gifts)
10 pbs with sgt
10 daemonetts with sgt
Daemon prince ( MOS greater, exalted, ML3, armor, wings)
Daemon prince ( MOS greater, exalted, ML3, armor, wings)
Bastion
Black legion csm prince (mot, armor, wings, skull of kerngar, spineshiver blade, gift of mutation)
cultists
drake

The bastion has proved to be a real game changer in the army, as another los blocker on the table to go along with the 1-2 most gts are running now. I can't stress how important it is.

I also think having eternal warrior allows you to be more aggressive vs other mcs like riptides.

Again I have not tested it, but if I was going to start testing for a 2k gt with my fmcs (currently testing for adepticon) this is where id start.

Do you mean keeper? Or LoC? Considering a keeper can't fly...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Do you mean keeper? Or LoC? Considering a keeper can't fly...

I mean keeper, yes he doesn't fly, but boy does the keeper do work. However the first list had lord of change in it. My mistake

That's quite interesting. You seem a man in the know!

My 2k list is a bit different as I sacrifice 1 flyer for a powerful unit of dogs which from my games has been totally worth it once Belakor game into the game. Having automatic invisibility on the dogs with a herald makes that one unit that cannot be ignored and is super fast and in your opponent face right away.

Kairos Fateweaver
Herald of Khorne Lesser Reward Juggernaut

Pink Horrors x11
Pink Horrors x11

Flesh Hounds x10

Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2
Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2

Be'lakor
Cultists x10
Heldrake

1998

Slagmar wrote:
My 2k list is a bit different as I sacrifice 1 flyer for a powerful unit of dogs which from my games has been totally worth it once Belakor game into the game. Having automatic invisibility on the dogs with a herald makes that one unit that cannot be ignored and is super fast and in your opponent face right away.

Kairos Fateweaver
Herald of Khorne Lesser Reward Juggernaut

Pink Horrors x11
Pink Horrors x11

Flesh Hounds x10

Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2
Daemon Prince Tzeentch Wings Armor Greater Reward x1 Exalted Reward ML x2

Be'lakor
Cultists x10
Heldrake

1998

How is your matchup vs seerstar and ovessastar? Also why mot lvl2? do you roll one on tele or bio and use the 2nd roll for flickerfire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's quite interesting. You seem a man in the know!

The funny thing is I copy most of my daemon lists off one of my buddies lol!!!

OK thanks for all the tips, I've been convinced that fitting a drake in there is the way to go. Current list is as follows:

HQ
Fateweaver (300)
LoC - 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, ML3 (305)

TROOPS
Pink Horrors x10 (90)
Plaguebearersx10 (90)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), Flight, Armour, ML3 (335)
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Portalglyph), Flight, Armour, ML2 (310)

CSM ALLIED DETACHMENT
Be'lakor (350)
Cultists x10 (50)
Heldrake w Baleflamer (170)

Total 2000

I'm just not entirely sure which troop types to take (horrors, daemonettes or PB's) and whether or not to start them in reserve although I think perhaps I should. Also do you typically start Fateweaver in reserve in these type of lists?

troops in reserve pretty much every time. I usually go straight horrors, then choose what comes out of the 'glyph situationally. I've been under the impression that fatey had to be on the table for his abilities to work so i've never tried having him in reserve. I know some people in the camp that they work regardless, but i'm not really sure which is correct

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's quite interesting. You seem a man in the know!

The funny thing is I copy most of my daemon lists off one of my buddies lol!!!

I think troops are a MUST in reserve. I've gone for pure horrors to for flickering fire. I know krootman is a fan of plague bearers and daemonettes. They're all relatively decent apart from blood letters. If you're using the glyph you're at the bonus that you can spew out whatever you want!

I wouldn't use the Drake, don't get me wrong its a great unit, but I wouldn't. I have one still in its box.

Be'Lakor is the man, don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. The look on a Tau players face when you puppet master his Riptide is priceless. He also went toe to toe with Marneus Calgar and crushed him.

Fateweaver

10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Book, Greater Gift, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Portal, Greater Gift, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ 2x Greater Gifts, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Be'Lakor
10x Cultists.

This is the list I run.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
OK thanks for all the tips, I've been convinced that fitting a drake in there is the way to go. Current list is as follows:

HQ
Fateweaver (300)
LoC - 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, ML3 (305)

TROOPS
Pink Horrors x10 (90)
Plaguebearersx10 (90)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), Flight, Armour, ML3 (335)
Daemon Prince - MoT, 1x Exalted (Portalglyph), Flight, Armour, ML2 (310)

CSM ALLIED DETACHMENT
Be'lakor (350)
Cultists x10 (50)
Heldrake w Baleflamer (170)

Total 2000

I'm just not entirely sure which troop types to take (horrors, daemonettes or PB's) and whether or not to start them in reserve although I think perhaps I should. Also do you typically start Fateweaver in reserve in these type of lists?

I like it, but I prefer daemonetts ( a fantastic deep striking troop, and that extra 3 inches to run can't be understated in its importance). And pbs because they are so survivable. Your troops only objective is to not die. I hide mine out of Los, and off the board for as long as possible. IMO I think flicker fire on a unit who will be hiding, and or running most of the time is not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:
I wouldn't use the Drake, don't get me wrong its a great unit, but I wouldn't. I have one still in its box.

Be'Lakor is the man, don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. The look on a Tau players face when you puppet master his Riptide is priceless. He also went toe to toe with Marneus Calgar and crushed him.

Fateweaver

10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Book, Greater Gift, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ Portal, Greater Gift, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ 2x Greater Gifts, Wings, Armour, and 2x Mastery Level (biomancy)

Be'Lakor
10x Cultists.

This is the list I run.

Not saying belekor isn't the man, I just don't think he fits the army for what it wants to do. Belkor wants to be aggressive in an army that can't afford to be aggressive until the very end of the game. Also as I said before he is not hard to kill. Having every tele power is nice, but it's not like you are already getting multiple tele rolls . I also think the hell drake is an auto include, the drake will carry you in most of your matches. It allows you to push their army while hiding yours.

Also as I have said before, I only charge my princes at the end of the game or when I have no choice (which isn't often)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's quite interesting. You seem a man in the know!

The funny thing is I copy most of my daemon lists off one of my buddies lol!!!

I think troops are a MUST in reserve. I've gone for pure horrors to for flickering fire. I know krootman is a fan of plague bearers and daemonettes. They're all relatively decent apart from blood letters. If you're using the glyph you're at the bonus that you can spew out whatever you want!

There are some matchups where you start all your troops on the board and keep the FMCS in reserve.

With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

If they can alpha your FMCS dead on turn one, which some armies can. Then you keep your FMCS off the table . It doesn't happen often but there are times when it's the right play.

Rolling biomancy is usually a bad call with your FMCS unless it's the mirror match. And then I'd only roll it once depending on my opponents army.

As for rolling a 3-4 with hallucinate , at the Tof invational, I did that to hulksmash 4 turns in a row on his guard blob lol

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

If they can alpha your FMCS dead on turn one, which some armies can. Then you keep your FMCS off the table . It doesn't happen often but there are times when it's the right play.

Rolling biomancy is usually a bad call with your FMCS unless it's the mirror match. And then I'd only roll it once depending on my opponents army.

As for rolling a 3-4 with hallucinate , at the Tof invational, I did that to hulksmash 4 turns in a row on his guard blob lol

I have seen others say the same thing about Biomancy, and I just don't understand why. What would you replace it with? By stacking Biomancy, you are very likely to draw the powers you need. Enfeeble, Iron Arm, Warp Speed, hell even Smite works on a daemon prince. On the off chance you roll Warp Speed and Iron Arm, your prince will carve through just about anything. A prince with Enfeeble will allow Fateweaver to chew through most things with Flickering Fire.

If I didn't have access to Be'Lakor I might take a prince and stack 3 telepathy powers. If I am facing hordes, I might throw Flickering Fire on a couple of them to whittle them down, but the other disciplines are just to random to take chances on. If you are going for divination, then a Lord of Change is the way to go, but I don't like the LOC because divination doesn't help daemons as much as some other armies. You will get into assault with your daemons at some points and they don't have enough shooting to make perfect timing that necessary. Prescience you can get from Fateweaver and they already have a 5+ invulnerable, so is the the chance to get a 4+ invulnerable better than the chance to get your prince eternal warrior or the chance to weaken your enemy. With Be'Lakor biomancy is the way to go on your princes.

As far as the alpha strike, look at it this way, most flying circus lists have 2-3 troops max. If they can alpha strike hard enough to kill your princes, they can wipe your fragile T3 5+ troops, and then you are still stuck waiting around for the princes to come in. They might come in on turn 2 or they might come in on turn 4. The only time I would keep my FMCs in reserve is if the table has absolutely no LOS blocking terrain.

valace2 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

valace2 wrote:
With their ability to fly off the table, I dunno why you would hold them in reserve. What will happen if a couple of your 300+ point daemons don't make it on until turn 4? I always hold my troops in reserve and let the mission dictate whether I need the portal or not.

Yes it sucks when you go 2nd and you can't get your MCs airborne, but you should have enough cover to protect them.

You stick the grimoire on Be'Lakor and I don't see what can beat him in close combat, short of a super heavy or something with a 2++, Thats close combat, hallucinate a death star and laugh. I have used Fateweavers reroll to get a 3-4 on the hallucinate chart. Guaranteed invisibility also gives you more options with the book, and depending on your gifts and whether you can roll Iron Arm with at least one of your 3 princes, thats a whole lot of protection going around.

If they can alpha your FMCS dead on turn one, which some armies can. Then you keep your FMCS off the table . It doesn't happen often but there are times when it's the right play.

Rolling biomancy is usually a bad call with your FMCS unless it's the mirror match. And then I'd only roll it once depending on my opponents army.

As for rolling a 3-4 with hallucinate , at the Tof invational, I did that to hulksmash 4 turns in a row on his guard blob lol

I have seen others say the same thing about Biomancy, and I just don't understand why. What would you replace it with? By stacking Biomancy, you are very likely to draw the powers you need. Enfeeble, Iron Arm, Warp Speed, hell even Smite works on a daemon prince. On the off chance you roll Warp Speed and Iron Arm, your prince will carve through just about anything. A prince with Enfeeble will allow Fateweaver to chew through most things with Flickering Fire.

If I didn't have access to Be'Lakor I might take a prince and stack 3 telepathy powers. If I am facing hordes, I might throw Flickering Fire on a couple of them to whittle them down, but the other disciplines are just to random to take chances on. If you are going for divination, then a Lord of Change is the way to go, but I don't like the LOC because divination doesn't help daemons as much as some other armies. You will get into assault with your daemons at some points and they don't have enough shooting to make perfect timing that necessary. Prescience you can get from Fateweaver and they already have a 5+ invulnerable, so is the the chance to get a 4+ invulnerable better than the chance to get your prince eternal warrior or the chance to weaken your enemy. With Be'Lakor biomancy is the way to go on your princes.

As far as the alpha strike, look at it this way, most flying circus lists have 2-3 troops max. If they can alpha strike hard enough to kill your princes, they can wipe your fragile T3 5+ troops, and then you are still stuck waiting around for the princes to come in. They might come in on turn 2 or they might come in on turn 4. The only time I would keep my FMCs in reserve is if the table has absolutely no LOS blocking terrain.

heres a question for you, how competitive do you play, and what is your local meta like? Mine is usually my team and some other friends (high level gt players) who all play top tier gt level deathstars and other armies, along with whatever I play at random rtts. So maybe our experiences regarding our powers are influenced by our local metas

I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

Its half the reason imo lol

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

Its half the reason imo lol

Oh really? You rate it that highly?!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can see both biomancy and telepathy being situational. With your list valace2 I'd prob roll 2 bio and 1 tele along with Be'Lakor and his tele stuff.

On a different note, the LoC isn't about divination. It's about a T6 Greater daemon with 2 greater gifts. He can become your beatstick!

As for reserves, you can't deploy your 2 troops and keep your 4 daemons in reserve anyway, since it has to be a 50/50 split, but none the less, a lot of this depends on who you're playing and the situation. I've learnt that about this army already, no 2 games are the same!

Oh div is just as important, 2, 6 are huge rolls that really really help you. 5 also allows him to become a monster in cc as well.

Yeah I hear that. All I'm saying is, Div isn't necessarily why you take him.

Its half the reason imo lol

Oh really? You rate it that highly?!

I cant state how much of a game changer scriers gaze and forwarning can be. Also your loc pretty much doubles in power with precog

I like the LOC more for that extra wound than the T6. Tau with their plasma/fusion/missile pods/Riptide Weapons as well as scatter lasers from the Eldar and tesla weapons from the Necrons are all going to hurt an LOC. The thing that bothers me about the LOC is that he can't get armour, yes he can through a gift, but it's unreliable.

I just see divination being wasted on daemons, divination is more suited to a shooting army like marines/eldar and Tau.

I forget what is the 5th power on the divination tree?

valace2 wrote:
I like the LOC more for that extra wound than the T6. Tau with their plasma/fusion/missile pods/Riptide Weapons as well as scatter lasers from the Eldar and tesla weapons from the Necrons are all going to hurt an LOC. The thing that bothers me about the LOC is that he can't get armour, yes he can through a gift, but it's unreliable.

I just see divination being wasted on daemons, divination is more suited to a shooting army like marines/eldar and Tau.

I forget what is the 5th power on the divination tree?

WOAH no way is it wasted!

Precog, is reroll hits wounds and armor saves for everything.

Scriers gaze is game altering, the ability to more then likely keep your troops off during the early turns of cat and mouse is critical and allows you to force your opponent to make a choice, does he go after your troops, or protect his.

Forwarning, well being able to give other fmcs besides fateweaver a 2+ reroll inv save changes allows you to be more conservative with fateweaver.

So precognition let's you reroll your 5+ invuln save. What is shooting that he needs rerolls, he is already BS6?.

Forewarning is slightly better than what he has now. I don't place as much stock in a 2++ on a prince, they are already very durable. You admit that you avoid assault and your daemons are being shot at with skyfire anyway, so what do you need the 2++ for?

I am with you on scriers gaze, the ability to guarantee that your troops don't hit the table until turn 4 is nice.

Misfortune would be nice but it's like enfeeble you have to get closer to use it and you don't like to get that close. Still good in conjunction with flickering fire.

You have to admit though that prescience and perfect timing are more suited to shooting armies.

The bigger problem though is that it is random. You could just as easily roll foreboding and be forced into prescience and then roll misfortune.

valace2 wrote:
So precognition let's you reroll your 5+ invuln save. What is shooting that he needs rerolls, he is already BS6?.

Forewarning is slightly better than what he has now. I don't place as much stock in a 2++ on a prince, they are already very durable. You admit that you avoid assault and your daemons are being shot at with skyfire anyway, so what do you need the 2++ for?

I am with you on scriers gaze, the ability to guarantee that your troops don't hit the table until turn 4 is nice.

Misfortune would be nice but it's like enfeeble you have to get closer to use it and you don't like to get that close. Still good in conjunction with flickering fire.

You have to admit though that prescience and perfect timing are more suited to shooting armies.

The bigger problem though is that it is random. You could just as easily roll foreboding and be forced into prescience and then roll misfortune.

Thats a chance ill take considering how important 3 of the 6 rolls are. Dont underestimate the ability to reroll a 3+ save and have a 4+ fnp on top of that, also rerolling to wound on flickerfire is fantastic. Forwarning is also huge cause it allows you to shove the loc in your opponents face on the ground with a 2+ rerollable and go kill me or I am going to murder a unit next turn. Something that fateweaver can't really do.

I can see precognition being pretty awesome. I'm right in think it's re roll any to hits? Including combat?