<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) RT as well as other papers.

"(CNN) -- Turkey shot down a Syrian fighter jet Sunday after the warplane strayed into its airspace, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

"Our F-16s went up in the air and shot that plane down. Why? Because if you violate my airspace, then from now on, our slap will be hard," Erdogan told supporters at a campaign rally.

There was no immediate response to the claim from Syria, where a civil war periodically spills over its neighbors' borders.

The Turkish armed forces website reported that two Syrian planes were spotted and were warned four times about approaching Turkish airspace as they flew north in Syrian airspace.

One plane left the area but the second plane continued, and entered Turkish airspace by approximately 1 kilometer (six-tenths of a mile). The plane turned west and continued to fly into Turkish airspace, according to the site.

One of the two Turkish F-16s patrolling the area launched a missile at the Syrian plane and it crashed in the area of Kesep, in Syrian territory about 1200 meters (three-quarters of a mile) south of the border, Turkish armed forces said." http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/23/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2



this is paired with israels retaliation against syrian bombings, and is indicative of further escalation of conflict in an already conflicted zone. http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/meast/israel-syria-violence/index.html
"Addressing a Cabinet meeting Wednesday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Israeli strikes on Syrian territory targeted elements "that not only facilitated, but also cooperated with, the attacks on our forces."

He added, "Our policy is very clear: We attack those who attack us.""


becuase the middle east went "hey, cant let eastern Europe, Spain, and south america get all the attention!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658542.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Can't say as I blame Turkey so much in this one. They warned the aircraft multiple times. It might not be the smartest move from a political standpoint, but it didn't do anything wrong per say.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658867.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Of course, Syria contests that their aircraft was in their own airspace. Best thing for the Syrians is not to fly aircraft with barrel bombs anywhere in Syria. Just to make sure these incidents don't happen.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6658868.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dementedwombat wrote:
When i read the title I wanted to believe a turkey somehow got sucked into a jet engine. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Can't say as I blame Turkey so much in this one. They warned the aircraft multiple times. It might not be the smartest move from a political standpoint, but it didn't do anything wrong per say.


Pretty much this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659140.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 easysauce wrote:

"Our F-16s went up in the air and shot that plane down. Why? Because if you violate my airspace, then from now on, our slap will be hard," Erdogan told supporters at a campaign rally.


Just out of interest, did he actually say "my airspace", as opposed to "our airspace"? I've seen several different sources saying so, but it seems a bit strange.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659274.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) Israel plays the self defence card way more than is plausible and Israeli military actions should not be seen as retaliatory or otherwise justified without stringent proof, they don't have enough moral coinage.

Source:
http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659364.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659376.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:
I dont trust a word Netanyahu says, with good reason. What 'retaliation' is Israel talking about, Obama recently spilled the beans on what Israel was doing, namely bombing Syria while relying on 'plausible deniability' to deflect comments that the strikes were illegal and not self defence. Netanyahu's complaint at Obama was at exposing lies rather than exposing military actions themselves.
Israel plays the self defence card way more than is plausible and Israeli military actions should not be seen as retaliatory or otherwise justified without stringent proof, they don't have enough moral coinage.

Source:
http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11


Brilliant. Maybe you missed the fact that Syrians planted an IED that injured Israeli soldiers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/us-israel-syria-idUSBREA2H1EM20140318

It takes a special sort to believe that Israel wants to fire artillery into Syria for no reason.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659472.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
unfortunately I think this is exactly what it appears to be on the surface,

namely that EVERYONE in the area has now taken the kid gloves off so to speak.

I think its going to take a lot to de escalate the situation now if its possible

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659630.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Now, Israel sitting there with an itchy trigger finger while having all their targets already marked on the map and the missions already planned out while just waiting for any excuse to launch the mission? That is much more plausible in my book. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659923.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 d-usa wrote:


Now, Israel sitting there with an itchy trigger finger while having all their targets already marked on the map and the missions already planned out while just waiting for any excuse to launch the mission? That is much more plausible in my book.



Pretty much the entire world has the plans already drawn up and just seems to be waiting for an excuse.

Not limited to israel, although I do think they have put a lot more thought into it then most.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6659996.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 easysauce wrote:
 d-usa wrote:


Now, Israel sitting there with an itchy trigger finger while having all their targets already marked on the map and the missions already planned out while just waiting for any excuse to launch the mission? That is much more plausible in my book.



Pretty much the entire world has the plans already drawn up and just seems to be waiting for an excuse.

Not limited to israel, although I do think they have put a lot more thought into it then most.





Few countries have had more reason to do so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660013.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660059.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660067.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Shut up you anti-semite.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6660093.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661702.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Nice to see Vipers getting some kills, though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661718.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661790.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
I dont trust a word Netanyahu says, with good reason. What 'retaliation' is Israel talking about, Obama recently spilled the beans on what Israel was doing, namely bombing Syria while relying on 'plausible deniability' to deflect comments that the strikes were illegal and not self defence. Netanyahu's complaint at Obama was at exposing lies rather than exposing military actions themselves.
Israel plays the self defence card way more than is plausible and Israeli military actions should not be seen as retaliatory or otherwise justified without stringent proof, they don't have enough moral coinage.

Source:
http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11


Brilliant. Maybe you missed the fact that Syrians planted an IED that injured Israeli soldiers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/us-israel-syria-idUSBREA2H1EM20140318

It takes a special sort to believe that Israel wants to fire artillery into Syria for no reason.




Well those 'special sorts' include your president.

This assumes that Syrian government forces did actually plant an IED, which isd by no means a fact. Even the article you linked to said it was unclear who planted the bomb. It might have been someone else but taken as an excuse for more airstrikes and that is a likely supposition allowing for Natanyaghus abhorent policy choices.
Point remains Israel took recent unilateral military action against Syria without any just cause and got pissy when Obama removed their ability to lie about it.

Maybe you prefer to believe the roadside IED has Assads signiture on it, it might have had a note with a ribbon too.

However you ought to be aware that lots of people in the middle east have it in for Israel, with various degrees of motive. Natanyahu wants to bomb Syria so he makes up an excuse knowing that there are plenty of idiots will blindly support it because they are spoonfed Israel = good , Arab = bad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6661972.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Seaward wrote:
I'm mostly just curious what they shot and what they shot it with.

Nice to see Vipers getting some kills, though.

Too bad they weren't Cylon Raiders.

.....wait, wrong Vipers ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662025.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
"In a statement, the Turkish military said a Syrian MiG-23 entered Turkey’s airspace near the Hatay border zone after ignoring four warnings to turn back. One of two Turkish F-16s flying an air patrol in the area then fired a missile that struck the Syrian jet, which crashed 1,200 metres inside Syrian territory near the town of Kassab, the military said."


finally... I thought the syrians had older MIGs, but took a while to find confirmation that that is what was shot down.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662099.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
I dont trust a word Netanyahu says, with good reason. What 'retaliation' is Israel talking about, Obama recently spilled the beans on what Israel was doing, namely bombing Syria while relying on 'plausible deniability' to deflect comments that the strikes were illegal and not self defence. Netanyahu's complaint at Obama was at exposing lies rather than exposing military actions themselves.
Israel plays the self defence card way more than is plausible and Israeli military actions should not be seen as retaliatory or otherwise justified without stringent proof, they don't have enough moral coinage.

Source:
http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11


Brilliant. Maybe you missed the fact that Syrians planted an IED that injured Israeli soldiers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/us-israel-syria-idUSBREA2H1EM20140318

It takes a special sort to believe that Israel wants to fire artillery into Syria for no reason.




Well those 'special sorts' include your president.

This assumes that Syrian government forces did actually plant an IED, which isd by no means a fact. Even the article you linked to said it was unclear who planted the bomb. It might have been someone else but taken as an excuse for more airstrikes and that is a likely supposition allowing for Natanyahus abhorent policy choices.
Point remains Israel took recent unilateral military action against Syria without any just cause and got pissy when Obama removed their ability to lie about it.

Maybe you prefer to believe the roadside IED has Assads signiture on it, it might have had a note with a ribbon too.

However you ought to be aware that lots of people in the middle east have it in for Israel, with various degrees of motive. Natanyahu wants to bomb Syria so he makes up an excuse knowing that there are plenty of idiots will blindly support it because they are spoonfed Israel = good , Arab = bad.


Where did ANYONE say "Syrian government forces" planted the bomb? The Israeli position is that they don't know who planted it, but they hold the Syrian government responsible. This makes sense if you know ANYTHING about the region since the Syrian military is receiving support from Hezbollah, an organization that wants the destruction of Israel. You need read read more and type less.

Why does Netanyahu want to bomb Syria? You can't make these absurd accusations without providing evidence. You have provided zero for your claims.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662133.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Easy E wrote:
So the Turks had F-16s, what was the Syrian flying?


Mig-23 supposedly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662155.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Where did ANYONE say "Syrian government forces" planted the bomb? You need read read more and type less.


The Israeli government blamed 'Syria' for thne IED. When a nation is listed as culprit that doesnt mean mean blame random Syrians or people in Syria biut Syria itself, as in the government.

Compare the two statements

"Man shot in Paris, a visiting American is blamed."
"Man shot in Paris, America blamed."

The first implies crime, the second implies government involvement.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Why does Netanyahu want to bomb Syria? You can't make these absurd accusations without providing evidence. You have provided zero for your claims.


You kidding right, surely you can't be this stupid.

If Israelis aircraft launch airstrikes against Syria and admits doing so in government publications it is fair to say the Israeli government is behind it at top level. An individual soldier might get trigger happy, but airstrikes only happen if the authorities order them. I am no fan of Israel but I dont believe that they lack discipline or that the IAF launches random bombing missions without orders, they may lack common morality but they are very careful what they do.

If somehow this is not enough that fact that links on this thread show Netanyahu talking about the airstrike should tell you who authorised it.

CNN wrote:Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Israeli strikes on Syrian territory targeted elements "that not only facilitated, but also cooperated with, the attacks on our forces."


Please give your brain a chance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662192.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 easysauce wrote:
for those curious as to what kind of plane was shot down:

"In a statement, the Turkish military said a Syrian MiG-23 entered Turkey’s airspace near the Hatay border zone after ignoring four warnings to turn back. One of two Turkish F-16s flying an air patrol in the area then fired a missile that struck the Syrian jet, which crashed 1,200 metres inside Syrian territory near the town of Kassab, the military said."


finally... I thought the syrians had older MIGs, but took a while to find confirmation that that is what was shot down.

They've got some 29s, but I doubt they'd risk them with a stunt like this. Still, I was hoping. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662203.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
I was under the impression they wouldn't know they even had a missile locked onto them until too late due to the large gap in tech between the two jets.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662250.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 easysauce wrote:
I was surprised that the mig-23 pilot had time to eject safely...

I was under the impression they wouldn't know they even had a missile locked onto them until too late due to the large gap in tech between the two jets.


Maybe he was warned.

The Turks may consider the shooting down of the jet to be enough of a message, not the death of the pilot. Telling a Mig 23 pilot a current generation missile is on its way is an incentive to eject, you can ping your own missile or otherwise be unsubtle with it, the Mig dopesnt have much chance if it sees the missile or not. A live pilot means someone to interrogate, or parade in front of the media so there is motive to force an eject.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662288.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:


The Israeli government blamed 'Syria' for thne IED. When a nation is listed as culprit that doesnt mean mean blame random Syrians or people in Syria biut Syria itself, as in the government.



Or you could actually read the fething article, in which it explains the Israeli position.

 Orlanth wrote:



You kidding right, surely you can't be this stupid.

If Israelis aircraft launch airstrikes against Syria and admits doing so in government publications it is fair to say the Israeli government is behind it at top level. An individual soldier might get trigger happy, but airstrikes only happen if the authorities order them. I am no fan of Israel but I dont believe that they lack discipline or that the IAF launches random bombing missions without orders, they may lack common morality but they are very careful what they do.

If somehow this is not enough that fact that links on this thread show Netanyahu talking about the airstrike should tell you who authorised it.

CNN wrote:Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Israeli strikes on Syrian territory targeted elements "that not only facilitated, but also cooperated with, the attacks on our forces."


Please give your brain a chance.


Holy hell is English your second language? I'll TRY to address this...

Obviously the strikes were authorized by someone higher up than the artillerymen who fired the shots, and the pilots who dropped the bombs. The Israeli position is that Syria is responsible for controlling terrorists on its side of the border. The perpetrators were either A) Syrian government forces, B) Hezbollah forces fighting for Assad, or C) anti-government rebels. 2/3 of those cases put the blame directly on the government, and the government is still responsible for keeping its people (the Syrian people) from attacking Israel.

Furthermore, the IDF shot two Hezbollah terrorists who were trying to carry out a similar attack in the area. This indicates that Hezbollah was most likely behind this latest attack.

Again, you have provided ZERO evidence whatsoever that Netanyahu "wants" to attack Syria for any reason other than to RESPOND to these attacks. You have provided zero motive. Why would Netanyahu want to attack Syria? Just for fun? No...this was a response to an attack on Israeli soldiers that originated in Syria.

Your claims are completely unsubstantiated. You probably want to let the big kids talk this out as you have nothing pertinent to contribute aside from ad hominem attacks.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662336.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Again, you have provided ZERO evidence whatsoever that Netanyahu "wants" to attack Syria for any reason other than to RESPOND to these attacks. You have provided zero motive.


I provided evidence on my first post on the thread. Here is it again:

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11

It is regarding Israeli government reactions to comments by the White House. I will help you by highlighting the details in bold.

Israel is incensed that the Obama administration confirmed a recent Israeli airstrike on Syria's coast, The Times of Israel reports.
Late Wednesday night a Syrian base in the coastal area of Latakia — which held Russian-made surface-to-air missile systems — was destroyed.
The immediate speculation was that Israel was involved, but that wasn't certain until an unnamed White House official confirmed it to CNN.
On Friday Israeli officials told Israel’s Channel 10 TV that the American leak was “scandalous” and “unthinkable,” The Times notes.
Unnamed U.S. officials also confirmed Israeli strikes in January and July.
Israeli military analyst Roni Daniel said on Israel's Channel 2 that the leaks remove Israel's plausible deniability and “are pushing Assad closer to the point where he can’t swallow these attacks, and will respond."

So-

- White house leaked that Syria was being bombed by Israel
- Israeli admitted such afterwards but were upset that the White House had spilled the info to the media.
- Specirfically mentioning the removal of 'plausible deniability'. This means Israel wanted to bomb Syria and deny doing so.
- Mentioning that Assad might retaliate.

All this was provided on my first comment on this thread. So much for the hysterical yapping about ZERO evidence. Unless you consider the White House irrelevant as a source of topical political info.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Why would Netanyahu want to attack Syria? Just for fun? No...this was a response to an attack on Israeli soldiers that originated in Syria.


We don't know exactly why Netanyahu wants to be bomb Syria, all we know is that he has been doing so for some time according to the White House, and didn't want to disclose having done so. Hence comments on loss of plausible deniability.
'Plausible deniability' also strongly infers the desire to lie about the issue, so any stated motive listed now is not necessary honest.

Also when it comes to calling this a 'retaliation'. It clearly isnt, as Israel has a current pre-emptive bombing strategy as revealed. The whole issue then (and it wasn't too long ago) was to prevent Assad from having an excuse to retaliate himself, with this coming from an Israeli source it is self evident which way around the process of strike and retaliation is occurring and points out a deep and vile hypocrisy over claims of justification as retaliation.

As the sources mention bombing attacks by Israel in January 2013, July 2013, October 2013 and now backed up by Israeli government claims of airstrikes this year show that this is an ongoing policy of bombing Syria.

In a nutshell what Israel is saying can be summed up as: "We demand the sovereign right to openly retaliate without providing evidence of culpability of attacks we suffer, and also want to smother evidence of pre-emptive strikes we make as we believe there is no sovereign right to retaliate against us even if evidence of our culpability is provided."


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Your claims are completely unsubstantiated. You probably want to let the big kids talk this out as you have nothing pertinent to contribute aside from ad hominem attacks.


As you have repeatedly claimed that I provided zero evidence, in spite of evidence that Israel itself does not deny. Then it is only fair to conclude that you were so tied up with the lie, and either you are too dumb or too dogmatised, it doesnt really matter which, but most likely the latter. Point remains you tried to shout me down, had you tried to argue a point I would do so back, but you havent tried to argue a point, just tried to drown out evidence by flat denial. Contempt is a perfectly reasonable response to this, and is not an ad hominem attack..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662494.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:


I provided evidence on my first post on the thread. Here is it again:

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-furious-at-obama-for-leaking-syria-strike-2013-11



These are two completely different incidents. This has nothing to do with an Israeli response to a cross-border attack which occurred months later.

Check the date on your article. It's from November 2013. Do you even read?




 Orlanth wrote:


We don't know exactly why Netanyahu wants to be bomb Syria, all we know is that he has been doing so for some time according to the White House, and didn't want to disclose having done so. Hence comments on loss of plausible deniability.
'Plausible deniability' also strongly infers the desire to lie about the issue, so any stated motive listed now is not necessary honest.



There's a difference between attacking specific STRATEGIC targets (i.e., weapons systems that are headed for Lebanon to be used by Hezbollah) and responding to a cross-border attack.


 Orlanth wrote:


Also when it comes to calling this a 'retaliation'. It clearly isnt, as Israel has a current pre-emptive bombing strategy as revealed.



These artillery and airstrikes were specific retaliation for the bombing. To claim otherwise without proof is complete idiocy. You have not presented any proof of an ulterior motive for these airstrikes and artillery strikes. Keep digging your hole deeper.

 Orlanth wrote:


In a nutshell what Israel is saying can be summed up as: "We demand the sovereign right to openly retaliate without providing evidence of culpability of attacks we suffer, and also want to smother evidence of pre-emptive strikes we make as we believe there is no sovereign right to retaliate against us even if evidence of our culpability is provided."


No. Wrong. Again. Israel is holding the Syrian government responsible for attacks originating from its own soil. Stop the attacks, and Israel will stop retaliating for them. Derp harder.


 Orlanth wrote:


As you have repeatedly claimed that I provided zero evidence, in spite of evidence that Israel itself does not deny. Then it is only fair to conclude that you were so tied up with the lie, and either you are too dumb or too dogmatised, it doesnt really matter which, but most likely the latter. Point remains you tried to shout me down, had you tried to argue a point I would do so back, but you havent tried to argue a point, just tried to drown out evidence by flat denial. Contempt is a perfectly reasonable response to this, and is not an ad hominem attack..


I really have no response to this whatsoever. Ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of someone who knows he has been completely and utterly defeated. Congratulations. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662542.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


These are two completely different incidents. This has nothing to do with an Israeli response to a cross-border attack which occurred months later.

Check the date on your article. It's from November 2013. Do you even read?


Yes I even quoted such. The bombings ocurred throughout 2013 proving Syria has an ongoing bombing campaign.



 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

There's a difference between attacking specific STRATEGIC targets (i.e., weapons systems that are headed for Lebanon to be used by Hezbollah) and responding to a cross-border attack.


Not really. Israel was attempting to lie about its bombing campaign, why believe them now when they have provided no evidence who set the IED and the concensus from the articles is that noboby knows who did.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

These artillery and airstrikes were specific retaliation for the bombing. To claim otherwise without proof is complete idiocy. You have not presented any proof of an ulterior motive for these airstrikes and artillery strikes. Keep digging your hole deeper.


Again, nobody knows who set the IED, so blaming Syria is just an excuse to continue bombing. Note the emphasis on the word continue as this is an ongoing policy of bombing Syria which predates current casualties suffered by the IDF.
There is no proof the IDf was even the intended target of the IED, mines are indiscriminate and there are several regional factions.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

No. Wrong. Again. Israel is holding the Syrian government responsible for attacks originating from its own soil. Stop the attacks, and Israel will stop retaliating for them. Derp harder.


How does Syria stop IED attacks in regions patrolled by Israeli soldiers?
Try and think this through, some points to help you along..

- First do you know what IED's are? Take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device The device may well have been manufactured locally, most IEDs are, hence the word improvised explosive device.
- Second you might consider that Israel doesn't let the Syrians march around and control areas where the IDF has ground troops.
- Add to this the FACT that nobody has provided any evidence of who set the IED that wounded the Israeli soldier. It could have been set by anyone for any motive, this is a volatile region after all.

To quote your own link:
In Jerusalem, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said the Syrian-held side of the Golan was "filled" with al Qaeda-linked rebels and Hezbollah guerrillas who, while at each other's throats in Syria, shared deep enmity for the Jewish state.


There is no reason to suggest the Assad regime is responsible for IED attacks on Israeli soldiers.
There is plenty of reason to suggest that now Israel has been exposed as having been actively bombing Syria and been caught out it might take advantage of an excuse, however thin, to continue doing so.



 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I really have no response to this whatsoever. Ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of someone who knows he has been completely and utterly defeated. Congratulations.


: Blink : Whatever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662626.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 easysauce wrote:
I was surprised that the mig-23 pilot had time to eject safely...

I was under the impression they wouldn't know they even had a missile locked onto them until too late due to the large gap in tech between the two jets.

"You are hit by missile. You explode instantly," is the exception rather than the rule. Ejection's very fast. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662638.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Seaward wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
I was surprised that the mig-23 pilot had time to eject safely...

I was under the impression they wouldn't know they even had a missile locked onto them until too late due to the large gap in tech between the two jets.

"You are hit by missile. You explode instantly," is the exception rather than the rule. Ejection's very fast.


Also modern day missiles (I believe) basically release a "razor wire hula hoop" as their primary kill mechanism. They score kills by cutting aircraft in half, not incinerating them in a gigantic fireball. There is certainly going to be secondary explosions related to jet fuel spraying everywhere including very hot engine components, but once you know that missile is going to hit you, you should have time to bail.

Most of the tech gap in fighter armaments would produce a scenario of knowing the missile is coming towards you and knowing you can't do anything about it rather than not seeing the missile at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662669.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Seaward wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
I was surprised that the mig-23 pilot had time to eject safely...

I was under the impression they wouldn't know they even had a missile locked onto them until too late due to the large gap in tech between the two jets.

"You are hit by missile. You explode instantly," is the exception rather than the rule. Ejection's very fast.


True, but its also common for a fighter pilot to eject before impact. After trying to do all they can to shake the missile I presume. Which as dementedwombat points out might be very little.

I still remember newsreel footage of Stinger armed Muhajideen rebels fighting Soviets in Afghanistan scoring kills against Soviet aircraft and how the pilot might try to eject before impact.
Didn't find it, but found this




Libyan Mig-23 shot down, pilot didn't get out. While low you can eject from that altitude, there have been successful ejects from 200'.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662729.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Of course if you eject when your plane is invertedthat's a whole other ball game. If you're too low there's not much that's going to save you. In fact you might hit the ground harder than just staying in the plane by that point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662746.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:
True, but its also common for a fighter pilot to eject before impact. After trying to do all they can to shake the missile I presume.

I'd take issue with that statement, based on my experience.

There also isn't a lot of "shaking the missile" to be done. Here's defending against a missile in a nutshell, at least as far as unclass stuff goes: at three seconds from impact, you break hard while hammering flares/chaff like a monkey on speed. That's it. Any maneuvering done further out, the missile isn't going to care about. If that doesn't work, you're hit. The Hollywood-style extended running through canyons stuff is bogus. You've got a pretty small window, and you're not going to be doing anything fancy.

Libyan Mig-23 shot down, pilot didn't get out. While low you can eject from that altitude, there have been successful ejects from 200'.

There have been successful ejections from much lower than that. We use 0/0 (0 altitude, 0 knots) seats. You can eject safely sitting on the flight deck if you need to. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662753.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dementedwombat wrote:
Nice mushroom cloud there at the end. And I can confirm that ejection seats are designed to be capable of "0-0 ejections" (i.e. stationary at ground level).


Ejection seats are not always 0-0, especially those in older model Warsaw Pact equipment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662758.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:
Nice mushroom cloud there at the end. And I can confirm that ejection seats are designed to be capable of "0-0 ejections" (i.e. stationary at ground level).


Ejection seats are not always 0-0, especially those in older model Warsaw Pact equipment.


Fair. i should probably say that "sources have lead me to believe responsible engineers design ejection seats to be capable of 0-0 ejections." I don't actually build the things for a living or anything and am in fact basing my knowledge off common sense and what I've seen on documentaries about the people who first tested ejection seats (one guy voluntarily strapped himself to a rocket sled repeatedly to see how many gees a person could take without suffering injury. That man was either incredibly tough or crazy).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662769.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:

I still remember newsreel footage of Stinger armed Muhajideen rebels fighting Soviets in Afghanistan scoring kills against Soviet aircraft and how the pilot might try to eject before impact.


Yep, that's a situation where I'd try to suppress my instinct to survive. Not the best neighborhood to get a flat tire in, let alone shot down while flying bombing runs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662771.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Seaward wrote:


There also isn't a lot of "shaking the missile" to be done. Here's defending against a missile in a nutshell, at least as far as unclass stuff goes: at three seconds from impact, you break hard while hammering flares/chaff like a monkey on speed. That's it. Any maneuvering done further out, the missile isn't going to care about. If that doesn't work, you're hit. The Hollywood-style extended running through canyons stuff is bogus. You've got a pretty small window, and you're not going to be doing anything fancy.


Nice to know more about what happens from someone more in the know.
I was using the colloquial expression of 'shaking off'. I was an RAF brat long ago, and that is as much of an explanation as I was given.

In the age of fly by wire it's different however, modern software comes to the rescue. One can select an option while under missile threat that presets the computer to take over your aircraft at the optimum moment and attempt one of several pre-programmed evades for you.

 Seaward wrote:

Libyan Mig-23 shot down, pilot didn't get out. While low you can eject from that altitude, there have been successful ejects from 200'.

There have been successful ejections from much lower than that. We use 0/0 (0 altitude, 0 knots) seats. You can eject safely sitting on the flight deck if you need to.


The story of the 200' eject was from a Harrier pilot and it was before 0-0 technology was proliferated, it was considered a feat at the time. Also from what I hear speed is more important than altitude, 0-0 is in part a strapped turkey, traveling low and fast is far more problematic an eject than sitting on the flight deck.


I heard is said those who eject often end up shorter due to spinal compression, is this true?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662773.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Seaward wrote:


There also isn't a lot of "shaking the missile" to be done. Here's defending against a missile in a nutshell, at least as far as unclass stuff goes: at three seconds from impact, you break hard while hammering flares/chaff like a monkey on speed. That's it. Any maneuvering done further out, the missile isn't going to care about. If that doesn't work, you're hit. The Hollywood-style extended running through canyons stuff is bogus. You've got a pretty small window, and you're not going to be doing anything fancy.



I've always wondered about the basics of modern missile evasion, your post has made me have far more respect for air forces around the world. a 3 second window is all they have ? I always thought there would be some sophisticated computer program doing it for the pilot. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662777.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
Bullockist wrote:
I've always wondered about the basics of modern missile evasion, your post has made me have far more respect for air forces around the world. a 3 second window is all they have ? I always thought there would be some sophisticated computer program doing it for the pilot.

If you're defending by maneuver, that's pretty much it, barring hoping you're far enough out that considerable shifts in speed, altitude, heading, etc. can force the missile to make enough course corrections during a long flight so that it doesn't have the juice left to maneuver when it's nearing impact. Realistically, though, yeah, that's pretty much it, and if you can't spot the missile before it gets to that break point, you're pretty much screwed. Unless it misses on its own, of course. Which happens, best as we can tell, probably around 50% of the time, if you're talking modern BVR active guidance missiles.

Electronic defense (jamming, if you like) plays a pretty crucial role in defending against air-to-air stuff these days, and that's where the the current technological race is. The absolute best defense is of course seeing and not being seen. You can pull some wicked tricks with modern AMRAAMs if the guys you're shooting at don't know you're there.

Anyway, I know I've posted this video before, but for what real-life defense against missiles is like, it's hard to beat it. It's SAM launches rather than an air-to-air engagement, but it still illustrates the point pretty well. Skip to about the 3:00 mark for the action to start. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6662828.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Easy E wrote:
So the Turks had F-16s, what was the Syrian flying?


Probably an Me-262 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663140.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 djones520 wrote:
Shut up you anti-semite.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Where did ANYONE say "Syrian government forces" planted the bomb? The Israeli position is that they don't know who planted it, but they hold the Syrian government responsible.


What an extraordinary argument. Just... incredible. You are actually, honest to God trying to argue that Israel doesn't know who planted the bomb but are holding the Syrian responsible as a point in their favour.

That is a remarkable thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663163.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Shut up you anti-semite.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Where did ANYONE say "Syrian government forces" planted the bomb? The Israeli position is that they don't know who planted it, but they hold the Syrian government responsible.


What an extraordinary argument. Just... incredible. You are actually, honest to God trying to argue that Israel doesn't know who planted the bomb but are holding the Syrian responsible as a point in their favour.

That is a remarkable thing.


From where did the attack originate? There was no argument made on my part. I merely stated the Israeli position. Try to keep up.

I get it, you have a problem with Israel. What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663470.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


You're an American and even if you were a Syriac-Israeli this is forum chin stroking, you nor sebster nor anyone here has any influence. I'll be optimistic and assume you're not implying your citizenship of a superpower makes your opinion more valid.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663483.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Jape wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


You're an American and even if you were a Syriac-Israeli this is forum chin stroking, you nor sebster nor anyone here has any influence. I'll be optimistic and assume you're not implying your citizenship of a superpower makes your opinion more valid.


Actually I'm an IDF combat veteran and reservist. Influence? No, but I know a lot more about that region and how it operates than an Australian or an Englishman who have never been to the Middle East. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663492.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663497.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Jape wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


You're an American and even if you were a Syriac-Israeli this is forum chin stroking, you nor sebster nor anyone here has any influence. I'll be optimistic and assume you're not implying your citizenship of a superpower makes your opinion more valid.


Actually I'm an IDF combat veteran and reservist. Influence? No, but I know a lot more about that region and how it operates than an Australian or an Englishman who have never been to the Middle East.


Well, you know more about one side of it, and you have never done much to make yourself seem like you have a objective view of the situation. If anything, you have cultivated the opposite.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663502.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Ahtman wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Jape wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


You're an American and even if you were a Syriac-Israeli this is forum chin stroking, you nor sebster nor anyone here has any influence. I'll be optimistic and assume you're not implying your citizenship of a superpower makes your opinion more valid.


Actually I'm an IDF combat veteran and reservist. Influence? No, but I know a lot more about that region and how it operates than an Australian or an Englishman who have never been to the Middle East.


Well, you know more about one side of it, and you have never done much to make yourself seem like you have a objective view of the situation. If anything, you have cultivated the opposite.


Enlighten me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jape wrote:
You were debating influence.


A soldier has influence, though very little compared to a politician. An ignorant person who doesn't fight, vote, or live in either of the countries involved has zero influence. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663507.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
And what's with the ignorant remark I'm not talking about the situation in the Middle East, I'm talking about you and what you just typed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663519.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
I highly suggest everyone goes to both. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663540.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel. What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


Are you Israeli?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663603.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 djones520 wrote:
Seaward, thanks again for sharing that link. Video was good, and the link at the video was even better.

I highly suggest everyone goes to both.

I echo this, that video was truly intense. I didn't have much idea what was happening due to unfamiliarity with aircraft controls/view but by the time the video got to about 7-8 minutes I was feeling very, very tense. The stress people experience in combat situations , I'm still calming down now.
If people made action movies more like this and with less explosions I might actually watch some ( not meaning to make light of soldiers experiences just trying to show the impact just watching that had on me). Just being watching the video was truly amazing and hearing the pilots breathing get heavier and heavier was extremely mortifying.

feth me]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663617.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Enlighten me.


We tried.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663880.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6663995.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 d-usa wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science


Hey... I called him an anti-semite long before that!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664166.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 djones520 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science


Hey... I called him an anti-semite long before that!


It doesn't count if its done ironically you hipster ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664228.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dementedwombat wrote:
Nice mushroom cloud there at the end. And I can confirm that ejection seats are designed to be capable of "0-0 ejections" (i.e. stationary at ground level).

Of course if you eject when your plane is invertedthat's a whole other ball game. If you're too low there's not much that's going to save you. In fact you might hit the ground harder than just staying in the plane by that point.


Back in the long ago day, when I lived in northern Maine, I heard there were a couple of pilots at Loring that ejected while inverted. Their seats were said to have shot pretty deep into the swamp mud.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664265.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dogma wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel. What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


Are you Israeli?


No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science


There are posters here who consistently bash Israel without providing any evidence that they are doing anything wrong. But, when it comes to anti-semitism vs. criticism of Israel, one has nothing to do with the other right? I'm told consistently that being anti-Israel does not mean that you hate Jews. Yet you are attempting to equate the two.

Which is it? Are they the same or are they not?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orlanth wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Enlighten me.


We tried.


And failed...because your argument is that Israel has no right to stop Iranian weapon systems from reaching enemies (Hezbollah) that have conducted numerous cross-border attacks on its soldiers. Nor does Israel, you claim, have a right to respond to cross-border IED attacks originating from Syria, that were most likely carried out by the same organization.

Sorry, we'll take our right to self defense over the opinions of some Englishman who can't have a discussion without resorting to ad hominem attacks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664404.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone in this thread to get called anti-semitic...


Page 2, 14th post.


 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science


There are posters here who consistently bash Israel without providing any evidence that they are doing anything wrong.


Just because you don't like the evidence doesn't mean the evidence isn't there...

But, when it comes to anti-semitism vs. criticism of Israel, one has nothing to do with the other right? I'm told consistently that being anti-Israel does not mean that you hate Jews. Yet you are attempting to equate the two.


Actually I wrote that your statement isn't flat-out antisemitism. But if your brain takes "not flat-out antisemitism" to mean "totally antisemitism" it does help to explain all your other mental gymnastics in this thread.

Which is it? Are they the same or are they not?


The answer is in the part you quoted. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664449.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664449.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Are you Israeli?


No.


You claimed to be an IDF reservist, do you live in Israel?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664541.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing) tiny minority that actually looks at the facts and come to a logical conclusion. just my $0.02]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664562.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)


There's also that tiny tiny tiny percent that want to see Jesus played in every movie going forward by Mel Brooks as the tired schlepping rabbi that he really was.

"Oy ve, again with the party favors? What am I to you just food and water?" ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664603.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:


I heard is said those who eject often end up shorter due to spinal compression, is this true?


Yes, and you get even shorter on a 0-0 trip because the chute hasn't had time to slow you enough. Just ask the poor tornado pilot at Lossiemouth when he....over reacted when his plane ran off the end of the runway

Cheers

Andrew]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664630.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dogma wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Are you Israeli?


No.


You claimed to be an IDF reservist, do you live in Israel?


Nuggz is apparently a US resident according to his Dakka profile
He also claims to be an Israeli reservist.
It might be true, or he might just be a wannabe, but I don't see an inconsistency between that statement and his apparent residency.

Also Nuggz stated opinions, and their level of intellectual stability, show some consistency with the type of person who travels to the Middle East to get involved in the fighting but doesn't actually live there.







 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I find there to be 3 groups of people when talking about Israel, one which believes Israel can do no wrong, one that believes that Israel is a horrible, horrible place filled with horrible pole who want to kill you, and a tiny minority that actually looks at the facts and come to a logical conclusion. just my $0.02


I don't think it as tiny a minority as your post suggests.

The true majority generally looks at the facts, notices that the other two categories exist and decide its better to shut up about it. The alternative is to open oneself to reprisal, verbal or otherwise.

The Middle East issues are something which is very hard to be neutral about to the satisfaction of those with vested interests. Take the line the BBC walks for instance for instance, each faction claims it's the catspaw of the other, often in the same week the BBC is being accused of being both Zionist and anti-Semitic. The number of times the BBC is accused by the Zionist press of being a mouthpiece for militant Palestinians is neatly counterbalanced by the times the BBC is accused to being a Zionist mouthpiece by militant Islamists. It all depends on who sees what report.

Plenty here on Dakka will look at Middle East issues with as much dispassion as can be mustered because from the safety of our keyboards it doesn't really matter if a rabid Islamic or rabid Zionist comes along and spouts their stuff and heats up the thread It's only really dangerous if you take it to people face to face, because the fanatics will see any opinion not entirely in line with theirs as bias, hate, heresy or bigotry; ignoring of course their own bias, hatred, and fanatic bigotry which is all too often crystal clear.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664716.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I find there to be 3 groups of people when talking about Israel, one which believes Israel can do no wrong, one that believes that Israel is a horrible, horrible place filled with horrible pole who want to kill you, and a tiny minority that actually looks at the facts and come to a logical conclusion. just my $0.02


I don't think it as tiny a minority as your post suggests.

The true majority generally looks at the facts, notices that the other two categories exist and decide its better to shut up about it. Take the BBC for instance, each faction claims it's the catspaw of the other. The number of times the BBC is accused by the Zionist press of being a mouthpiece for militant Palestinians is neatly counterbalanced by the times the BBC is accused to being a Zionist mouthpiece by militant Islamists.

Plenty here on Dakka will look at Middle East issues with as much dispassion as can be mustered because from the safety of our keyboards it doesn't really matter if a rabid Islamic or rabid Zionist comes along and spouts their stuff and heats up the thread It's only really dangerous if you take it to people face to face, because the fanatics will see any opinion not entirely in line with theirs as bias, hate, heresy or bigotry, ignoring of course their own bias, hatred, and fanatic bigotry which is all too often crystal clear.

Well said. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6664781.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 dogma wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Are you Israeli?


No.


You claimed to be an IDF reservist, do you live in Israel?


Not anymore. If you have any more questions about my service, ask me over PM. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667183.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Orlanth wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Are you Israeli?


No.


You claimed to be an IDF reservist, do you live in Israel?


Nuggz is apparently a US resident according to his Dakka profile
He also claims to be an Israeli reservist.
It might be true, or he might just be a wannabe, but I don't see an inconsistency between that statement and his apparent residency.

Israel has programs in place to allow for foreign Jews to serve in the IDF, both as active duty and reservists.

I seem to recall hearing something a few years back that something like 8% of the IDF's active duty/reserves identified as American.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667200.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Are you Israeli?


No.


You claimed to be an IDF reservist, do you live in Israel?


Nuggz is apparently a US resident according to his Dakka profile
He also claims to be an Israeli reservist.
It might be true, or he might just be a wannabe, but I don't see an inconsistency between that statement and his apparent residency.

Israel has programs in place to allow for foreign Jews to serve in the IDF, both as active duty and reservists.

I seem to recall hearing something a few years back that something like 8% of the IDF's active duty/reserves identified as American.






This.

http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/

Mahal volunteers used to serve exclusively in the Nahal infantry brigade if their health profile allowed. Now they've opened up other units as well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6667216.page GMT Re:Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
From where did the attack originate? There was no argument made on my part. I merely stated the Israeli position.


After Orlanth commented that Israel had blamed the Syrian government for an IED, and was making attacks in retaliation, you responded by saying the Israeli's didn't claim the IED was planted by the Syrian government, it just blaming them for it anyway.

Which is, once again, a fething incredible thing.

I get it, you have a problem with Israel.


Oh look, there it is. Not quite 'anti-semite' but close enough for government work.

d-usa said it'd come on page 2, 14th post, but your post was page 2, post 15. Which makes me slightly afraid of his ability to see the future. I now challenge him to predict on what post the mods will issue a general warning to all people in the thread, and on what post this thread will be locked.

What you think about the situation is entirely irrelevant though, seeing as you're Australian and have no influence in the matter whatsoever.


This is a forum on the internet mate - if any of us were relevant we wouldn't be spending our time posting here. What matters is being informed and being sensible.

Except you, obviously. I'm sure right now you're in a meeting deep in the bowels of the Israeli government, being briefed in detail about the defence needs and foreign policy objectives of the nation... and you're only quickly popping on here to keep us all posted as a community service. We are so rudely failing to recognise your keen insight and extensive inside information. We apologise absolutely, it's just that your opinion here sounded like the loud, shouty one-sided nonsense you post on so many other issues. How were we to know this was the issue on which you actually knew something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
That was page 2, post 15. Not flat-out anti-Semite either, but I'll take it. Predicting the future is not an exact science


Promise me you'll use your powers for good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6669410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6669410.page GMT Turkey shoots down syrian fighter jet (also israel retaliates against syrian bombing)
while the shut down of the sites is fact, hopefully the reasoning behind it is a bit embellished]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6670870.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/586280/6670870.page GMT