theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
marss read deeper into it, the lion sucker punched russ while he was laughing, thats not a straight up fight

MarsNZ wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
marss read deeper into it, the lion sucker punched russ while he was laughing, thats not a straight up fight

I suggest you read into it further. Russ attacked the Lion with a cheap shot. The Lion didn't pass out, and ended up winning the brawl. Just because Russ decided he had enough doesn't mean the fight was over.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I always see the Lion as a master swordsman where as the Wolf is a brute a very strong brute but more of a bezerker and will always be bested by someone with actual skill like The Lion.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

look im willing to admit that the lion won thier little scuffle but a fist fight with your brother is alot different then trying to murder one another

timetowaste85 wrote:Well, Russ and the rest of the Wolves are a a walking pile of excrement, so I'm gonna side with the Lion.

 dusara217 wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Well, Russ and the rest of the Wolves are a a walking pile of excrement, so I'm gonna side with the Lion.

Mod Edit: Please don't subvert the swear filter. - RiTides

morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

Ok, first of all, Russ attacked the lion because the Lion had caused the deaths of hundreds of Space Wolves just so he could have a little bit of glory. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it was attacking your former ally in a fit of rage that this little intellectual bastard had the gall to waste so many lives just so that his Legion could have Lion's share of glory and then be proud of it.

And second of all, Lion knocked Russ out because he started laughing at the foolishness of their fight. If Russ hadn't been laughing, in an honor duel like that, it probably would have been luck that carried the day, not any particular skill on their part. My reasoning is as follows:
1.)The Lion is a trained Knight of the Order and has better training than Russ, but the Lion spent his early days fighting Daemons, whereas Russ spent his ENTIRE LIFE fighting humans and humanoid Xenos.
2.) The Lion's strength is in his intellect, not in his combat power. In a fight in which all of the Primarchs duked it out with eachother, the Lion would be going down first.

And also, Russ and the Lion were holding back when they fought. After all, it was an honor duel, so killing eachother would bring shame down upon the Primarch who won. The Lion had less combat experience in comparison to Russ. Russ had hit Fenris before the Lion hit Caliban, Russ was involved in countless wars even before the Emperor came whereas the Lion only fought one (the Knights of Lupus). In a straight-up deathmatch, Russ's experience, tightly controlled Berserker rage, and CQC talent would trump the Lion's Knightly training any day of the week.

Also, to the guy who posted before me. THE LION WON BY DECKING RUSS IN THE FACE WHEN HE WAS GIGGLING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL. NOT THROUGH SKILL.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
ok lets do this, who wins one on one and why Leman russ VS Lion el Johnson

 curran12 wrote:
Actually wasn't it Russ who ordered the premature attack that cost the lives of all those Wolves? Lemme check...

Ah yes, here we are:

" In addition to disrespecting the Emperor, the leader of the rebels had also insulted Leman Russ personally by naming him "The Emperor's Lapdog". In response, Leman Russ swore that he would cut the rebel leader's head from his shoulders and demanded that he be allowed to make an immediate attack on the rebel's headquarters. This impatient request was refused because The Lion had spent days gathering intelligence on the headquarters' defenses and had planned a detailed assault of his own. The Dark Angel attack went forward with few casualties and Russ could only watch from the grounds as Lion El'Jonson killed the rebel leader high on the walls of the fortress."

So how is it Jonson's fault again that Russ decided to Leeroy Jenkins the fortress?

 curran12 wrote:
Denied Russ the "right" to his petulant tantrum to soothe his ego? Cry me a river.

And "show off"? Sorry, but all I see is one attack succeeding where another Primarch simply raged because he headlong charged into a harder fight. Yes, the Lion is really showing off by not allowing stupidity to control. And as far as I can tell, Jonson didn't force Russ to hold anything back, in fact, it looks like Russ threw everything he could and still got bogged down in a fruitless battle.

Khonsu wrote:
Wow Deadshot you cannot be serious, Curran just proved how much of an honor bound idiot Russ truly is and you ignore it completely.
Russ is a huge egomaniac and all round hypocrite, It's befitting he lead a Legion of mutts.

Russ in that action proved he's not above a medieval warlord, Surely not deserving to lead a Legion of Astartes, He puts his pride and name before achieving the objective.

Khonsu wrote:
Wow Deadshot you cannot be serious, Curran just proved how much of an honor bound idiot Russ truly is and you ignore it completely.
Russ is a huge egomaniac and all round hypocrite, It's befitting he lead a Legion of mutts.

Russ in that action proved he's not above a medieval warlord, Surely not deserving to lead a Legion of Astartes, He puts his pride and name before achieving the objective.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
Wow Deadshot you cannot be serious, Curran just proved how much of an honor bound idiot Russ truly is and you ignore it completely.
Russ is a huge egomaniac and all round hypocrite, It's befitting he lead a Legion of mutts.

Russ in that action proved he's not above a medieval warlord, Surely not deserving to lead a Legion of Astartes, He puts his pride and name before achieving the objective.

correct me if im wrong but isnt the lions chapter going around hunting down the "fallen" to protect their honor in the eyes of the other chapters not to mention killing other space marines and innocents alike to achieve that goal?

 morganfreeman wrote:
Any "stain" upon his warrior's honor due to random mook #127312301239812938 calling him a name is nothing compared to sucker-punching your brother in rage.

 curran12 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Wolves -were- stopped. They got bogged down in a pointless battle while the more prepared and less hotheaded Dark Angels completed the mission. Without a doubt, the Wolves would have eventually won, but at what cost in terms of resources and time? There was only one thing Russ was fighting for in his rage; himself. Every account of that battle says it was the insult to Russ as a "lapdog" that sent him into a froth and got him all out aggressive. It was Russ fighting for Russ. If he was fighting for the Emperor, or the Imperial creed, why did he not heed the counsel of those who had extensively planned the attack? If he was fighting for the Emperor, why did he attack Jonson for dispatching the enemy warlord?

The bottom line is that he wasn't thinking of any of those things. He was mad that he didn't get his moment of vengeance, and so he vented it out on the Primarch who waged a superior battle. It is that trait of honorable egotism that has carried on with the Wolves throughout the entire lore of 40k. It is self-centered machismo cloaked in 'honor' that consistently leads to greater damage on the Imperium's side than it does help.

And as far as Russ' loyalty to his 'pack' is concerned. If he is such a pillar of loyalty, why did he up and leave to go hunting when the Imperium was in need of leadership? Not only were the Wolves left in the lurch, but he also abandoned one of his own, Bjorn, so he could go chasing daemons. Loyalty? Doubtful. Selfishness? Yes.

 dusara217 wrote:


IIRC, the Lion abandoned the Wolves when they clearly needed help. And depending on where you got your fluff from (DA Codex or SW Codex), you aren't going to get truly accurate information. For instance, in the Wolves codex it says that the Lion left the Wolves to pull off some daring ego plan so that the Lion could get his glory, robbing Russ of the recompense that almost any Legion would have demanded - DA included.
Also, what kind of Primarch would just abandon his brother and his men just so that he could get something done faster. That's like a Captain in the Army Rangers fighting alongside a Company of Marines and saying "I realize that these marines are embroiled in a massive firefight and need our help to survive, but instead, I'm gonna go kill the enemy General because he is in a vulnerable position"

 curran12 wrote:
Yeah, and they went in to die on Russ' orders, for the impotent glory of Russ. It was not as if Jonson ordered the Wolves in, mind you, Russ did. Russ let his bruised ego send Astartes to their deaths in a needless battle. As I said before, how is that Jonson's responsibility?

 curran12 wrote:
Since when were the Dark Angels and Jonson subservient to Russ? Sorry, but if I am a commander with a plan, I am not going to waste my brothers to appease a raging barbarian who got called a mean name. Jonson had a plan, Russ ignored it and thus he paid the price for his egotism and lack of ability to consider anything outside of his own impotent honor. We see it in this battle and we see it in his unexplained abandonment of his brothers and the Imperium at large to disappear into the Eye of Terror.

And since when did overthrowing a completely forgotten and inconsequential warlord have "universe in balance" stakes? Only for Russ' ego.

curran12 wrote:Since when were the Dark Angels and Jonson subservient to Russ? Sorry, but if I am a commander with a plan, I am not going to waste my brothers to appease a raging barbarian who got called a mean name. Jonson had a plan, Russ ignored it and thus he paid the price for his egotism and lack of ability to consider anything outside of his own impotent honor. We see it in this battle and we see it in his unexplained abandonment of his brothers and the Imperium at large to disappear into the Eye of Terror.

And since when did overthrowing a completely forgotten and inconsequential warlord have "universe in balance" stakes? Only for Russ' ego.

 curran12 wrote:
Uh huh. How's that fabric for the men you abandoned to die in that needless battle? How is it for the Wolves who are leaderless because Russ decided to abandon the Imperium when it needed leadership? Is that "fabric" comforting for Bjorn, who did nothing but was left behind anyway?

 Deadshot wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Uh huh. How's that fabric for the men you abandoned to die in that needless battle? How is it for the Wolves who are leaderless because Russ decided to abandon the Imperium when it needed leadership? Is that "fabric" comforting for Bjorn, who did nothing but was left behind anyway?

The fabric of the Imperium is that the life of the individual is worthless in face of the Imperium's needs. The Imperium needs heroes to lead its holy war against the Xenos, not a cold calculating machine. Russ wasn't leaving them leaderless. The Alpha wolf doesn't need to be there for the wolves to know their role and what they have to do. And it certainly wasn't needless. The rebel needed slain and brutally so that it didn't happen again, here or anywhere.

Russ and Lion's styles were both very different, but Russ, as seen in 40k, meshed better with the people and the common man. He grew up with Wolves where he learned his place and fraternity beyond anything the Primarchs and Astartes did. Lion grew up alone thinking he needed to do things himself, seeing others as only tools to get a job done.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
I think this thread should be renamed

the Deadshot vs the curran12

 angelofvengeance wrote:
The Lion. Hands down. An enraged fighter is more likely to make mistakes than one that is calm and focused. Unless you're Angron/Kharn anyways.

curran12 wrote:What I think, despite our disagreements in this thread, Deadshot and I can agree on is that the Lion and Russ are fundamentally different flavors of Primarch. As pointed out in this thread already, Lion is far more of a pragmatist, which I think would place Russ in the position of an idealist. Neither of these terms are inherently negative, but they are very opposed ways of thinking. Jonson is calculating, Russ is impulsive. Jonson is detached, Russ is involved. And so on down the line to create two mindsets that are effective, but very different, cause I'm not going to undercut Russ' accomplishments, here. What he did was good stuff.

But that all said, this thread is about a one on one fight. And frankly, looking at their mindsets, the Lion wins. I won't say he crushes Russ, but we have evidence of them going at it already. There was a long stalemate until a lapse in judgment from Russ created an opening for Jonson to exploit. A fight doesn't end simply because you decide it to end. Jonson has a tougher and more controlled mental edge, and as we've seen in the evidence of this battle, Russ can be baited into mistakes and his temperament can be used against him.

 curran12 wrote:
However, and here's the thing, what you have is supposition about Jonson's temperament in a battle, and assurances that Russ wouldn't act that way, but how do you know that to be certain? On the other hand, we have seen Russ' temper lead him into battles that were costly and/or fruitless in a tactical sense. As Russ himself has said (paraphrasing here) "there are situations where you can crush the enemy, but still lose."

You are right in that everyone, even Primarchs, can be roused to mistakes and anger if the right buttons are pressed. The disadvantage that Russ has is that his buttons are big, red and clearly labeled.

 curran12 wrote:


You are right in that everyone, even Primarchs, can be roused to mistakes and anger if the right buttons are pressed. The disadvantage that Russ has is that his buttons are big, red and clearly labeled.

 curran12 wrote:
But strength is not the only measure of a fight. I mean, just look at the whole fight that started this thing; it was a battle of power (Russ) vs tactics (Jonson) and the results are pretty undeniable. And frankly, just because Russ gets up to a rage in the face of an insult does not mean that Jonson would either. If you assume that, you can also assume that Jonson could, as you put it, Hulk out and be more dangerous as well. It is a line that is meaningless, and unless you can give a direct bit of evidence showing Russ as unique in this regard, carries nothing.

Also, as a little side note, Russ had the same feelings towards Horus as Warmaster as Jonson did: "The Lion and Leman Russ were, ironically, alike in their attitude, cynically accepting the appointment as the final sign of Horus' status as their father's favorite son." But I ask you then what value does this have towards a one on one fight anyway?

 Deadshot wrote:
The rebel needed slain and brutally so that it didn't happen again, here or anywhere.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The rebel needed slain and brutally so that it didn't happen again, here or anywhere.

That entire post was silly (really? "I see the heart and soul of the Imperium"...?), but this bit takes the cake.

Back in those days, if you wanted to have brutal slaying done, you didn't send the Space Wolves. You sent the World Eaters or the Night Lords.

Two chapters so infamous for their brutality that, as soon as they got into system, rebellions would cease and planetary governors would put all of their world's convicts to death. Those two chapters did brutality and fear, the Wolves were - are - just pussy-cats. Stupid ones at that.

 Deadshot wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The rebel needed slain and brutally so that it didn't happen again, here or anywhere.

That entire post was silly (really? "I see the heart and soul of the Imperium"...?), but this bit takes the cake.

Back in those days, if you wanted to have brutal slaying done, you didn't send the Space Wolves. You sent the World Eaters or the Night Lords.

Two chapters so infamous for their brutality that, as soon as they got into system, rebellions would cease and planetary governors would put all of their world's convicts to death. Those two chapters did brutality and fear, the Wolves were - are - just pussy-cats. Stupid ones at that.

Yes, fething really.

You don't send the Night Lords or the World Eaters is they are half a galaxy away and the Space Wolves are right there. The Crusade didn't task any Legion to any specific job except where particular skills were needed, like the Iron Warriors for sieges. Asides from, any will do.

 Deadshot wrote:
You don't call the SWAT if they are 5 hours away and the guys are threatening to kill hostages in 10 minutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, I have no personal preference to any of the Primarchs. Russ actually ranks 6th for me, far below Sanguinius, Horus, Perturabo, Angron, and Manus for me. Lion however is about 17th. Above Magnus and Alpharius.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
There should be a "Tie" option, as the pretty much fought for days, if not hours before Leman Russ decided it was silly for brothers to fight like this. He laughed at the dispute, Lion took offense and sucker punched Russ while he was laughing.

So lore shows them the same, but with the Lion having less honor and surprisingly a hotter head than Russ.