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ok lets do this, who wins one on one and why Leman russ VS Lion el Johnson

For the space Vikings!

They already did it and the Lion walked away conscious, unlike Russ.

I think the fluff pretty well puts Russ up there as one of the top dogs in a cc fight. I don't think I have ever read that the Lion was necessarily.

marss read deeper into it, the lion sucker punched russ while he was laughing, thats not a straight up fight

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
marss read deeper into it, the lion sucker punched russ while he was laughing, thats not a straight up fight

I suggest you read into it further. Russ attacked the Lion with a cheap shot. The Lion didn't pass out, and ended up winning the brawl. Just because Russ decided he had enough doesn't mean the fight was over.

The Lion... not for any reason except (feth space wolves)

I'd vote for lion but I also have a bias towards Dark Angels.

MarsNZ wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
marss read deeper into it, the lion sucker punched russ while he was laughing, thats not a straight up fight

I suggest you read into it further. Russ attacked the Lion with a cheap shot. The Lion didn't pass out, and ended up winning the brawl. Just because Russ decided he had enough doesn't mean the fight was over.

If you attack someone who isn't fighting that doesn't mean you get to win an actual fight either.

I always see the Lion as a master swordsman where as the Wolf is a brute a very strong brute but more of a bezerker and will always be bested by someone with actual skill like The Lion.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I always see the Lion as a master swordsman where as the Wolf is a brute a very strong brute but more of a bezerker and will always be bested by someone with actual skill like The Lion.

Cough cough. Angron says high.

Berzerkers have skill of their own. Berserkers don't just go Rrrraawwwrrr and swing wildly. They keep their anger and emotions supressed and bottled up. When in a fight they unleash it and it gives them unmatched strength and adrenaline, allowing them to push through their injuries and fight even harder.

Leman Russ strikes me as more of an aggressive fighter. He just attacks and attacks and pushes the attack, unlike a swordsman like Lion who waits and counters and feints.

Two very different styles each with much skill required. But one doesn't necessarily beat the other.

Personally, I go for Russ. He's just a bit more savage and if he in it to kill Lion he would. Lion on the other hand is more restrained.

Re: Their fight. Russ and Lion fought for a whole day before Leman Russ started laughing at the stupidity. Lion took a hissy fit and sucker punched him. Not the same as winning a fight.

The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

look im willing to admit that the lion won thier little scuffle but a fist fight with your brother is alot different then trying to murder one another

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

look im willing to admit that the lion won thier little scuffle but a fist fight with your brother is alot different then trying to murder one another

No, I don't think it is.

Lion strikes me as the better duelist. In a battle, Russ would have no trouble racking up a higher kill count, but Lion as the better technical fighter. He can hold his own against Curze, which is no mean feat.

As to the fist fight, it says that Lion is faster, and Russ stronger. In a duel with weapons with power fields, I think speed takes priority.

Russes punch was a lower blow then Lion's, but I don't think that fight means overly much.

Russ is probably the better Brawler. The Lion's strength is his use of strategy and tactics. Ol' Johnson is often described as the best tactician of any of the primarchs, even Horus.
From a pure warlike perspective, he was best suited to being Warmaster; Horus however had the charisma, which made him, in the overall situation, the better choice.

I'd have Russ down to win in a fight. I think his personal ferocity and fighting skill would outmatch Johnson, who I always had down as a more reserved, strategist, rather than a skilled cc fighter.

Well, Russ and the rest of the Wolves are a a walking pile of excrement, so I'm gonna side with the Lion.

In the context of the duel in the fluff, Lion wins simply due to technical skill.

If, on the other hand, they were in a straight up fight to kill each other, Russ would win through; his sheer ferocity if he didn't hold back would overwhelm Lion.

timetowaste85 wrote:Well, Russ and the rest of the Wolves are a a walking pile of excrement, so I'm gonna side with the Lion.

You little mipping mejer! You little futher nucking mipping Emperor's Children loving pile of dog mej!!! (j is pronounced like a jota in spanish)

Mod Edit: Please don't subvert the swear filter. - RiTides

morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

Ok, first of all, Russ attacked the lion because the Lion had caused the deaths of hundreds of Space Wolves just so he could have a little bit of glory. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it was attacking your former ally in a fit of rage that this little intellectual bastard had the gall to waste so many lives just so that his Legion could have Lion's share of glory and then be proud of it.

And second of all, Lion knocked Russ out because he started laughing at the foolishness of their fight. If Russ hadn't been laughing, in an honor duel like that, it probably would have been luck that carried the day, not any particular skill on their part. My reasoning is as follows:
1.)The Lion is a trained Knight of the Order and has better training than Russ, but the Lion spent his early days fighting Daemons, whereas Russ spent his ENTIRE LIFE fighting humans and humanoid Xenos.
2.) The Lion's strength is in his intellect, not in his combat power. In a fight in which all of the Primarchs duked it out with eachother, the Lion would be going down first.

And also, Russ and the Lion were holding back when they fought. After all, it was an honor duel, so killing eachother would bring shame down upon the Primarch who won. The Lion had less combat experience in comparison to Russ. Russ had hit Fenris before the Lion hit Caliban, Russ was involved in countless wars even before the Emperor came whereas the Lion only fought one (the Knights of Lupus). In a straight-up deathmatch, Russ's experience, tightly controlled Berserker rage, and CQC talent would trump the Lion's Knightly training any day of the week.

Also, to the guy who posted before me. THE LION WON BY DECKING RUSS IN THE FACE WHEN HE WAS GIGGLING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL. NOT THROUGH SKILL.

 dusara217 wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Well, Russ and the rest of the Wolves are a a walking pile of excrement, so I'm gonna side with the Lion.

Mod Edit: Please don't subvert the swear filter. - RiTides

morganfreeman wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
The lannisters are annoying, I vote the Stark
I like leman russ more, besides with the imperial guard tanks they dont call them lion el johnsons, they call them leman russes.

Uh... That's because Russ recovered the STC.


Furthermore, Russ decked the Lion with absolutely no warning to start the fight. -During- the fight, Russ stopped fighting and started laughing; at which point the Lion got the K.O.

No matter how you look at it, Johnson was the better of them. Bottom line here is they -both- got a cheap shot (though Russ had a much, much, MUCH cheaper one) but only one of them walked away.

Ok, first of all, Russ attacked the lion because the Lion had caused the deaths of hundreds of Space Wolves just so he could have a little bit of glory. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it was attacking your former ally in a fit of rage that this little intellectual bastard had the gall to waste so many lives just so that his Legion could have Lion's share of glory and then be proud of it.

And second of all, Lion knocked Russ out because he started laughing at the foolishness of their fight. If Russ hadn't been laughing, in an honor duel like that, it probably would have been luck that carried the day, not any particular skill on their part. My reasoning is as follows:
1.)The Lion is a trained Knight of the Order and has better training than Russ, but the Lion spent his early days fighting Daemons, whereas Russ spent his ENTIRE LIFE fighting humans and humanoid Xenos.
2.) The Lion's strength is in his intellect, not in his combat power. In a fight in which all of the Primarchs duked it out with eachother, the Lion would be going down first.

And also, Russ and the Lion were holding back when they fought. After all, it was an honor duel, so killing eachother would bring shame down upon the Primarch who won. The Lion had less combat experience in comparison to Russ. Russ had hit Fenris before the Lion hit Caliban, Russ was involved in countless wars even before the Emperor came whereas the Lion only fought one (the Knights of Lupus). In a straight-up deathmatch, Russ's experience, tightly controlled Berserker rage, and CQC talent would trump the Lion's Knightly training any day of the week.

Also, to the guy who posted before me. THE LION WON BY DECKING RUSS IN THE FACE WHEN HE WAS GIGGLING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL. NOT THROUGH SKILL.

Every Wolf slain is a blessing, All Hail Jonson!

Actually wasn't it Russ who ordered the premature attack that cost the lives of all those Wolves? Lemme check...

Ah yes, here we are:

" In addition to disrespecting the Emperor, the leader of the rebels had also insulted Leman Russ personally by naming him "The Emperor's Lapdog". In response, Leman Russ swore that he would cut the rebel leader's head from his shoulders and demanded that he be allowed to make an immediate attack on the rebel's headquarters. This impatient request was refused because The Lion had spent days gathering intelligence on the headquarters' defenses and had planned a detailed assault of his own. The Dark Angel attack went forward with few casualties and Russ could only watch from the grounds as Lion El'Jonson killed the rebel leader high on the walls of the fortress."

So how is it Jonson's fault again that Russ decided to Leeroy Jenkins the fortress?

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
ok lets do this, who wins one on one and why Leman russ VS Lion el Johnson

The Lion

Bias might be involved... Nah...

 curran12 wrote:
Actually wasn't it Russ who ordered the premature attack that cost the lives of all those Wolves? Lemme check...

Ah yes, here we are:

" In addition to disrespecting the Emperor, the leader of the rebels had also insulted Leman Russ personally by naming him "The Emperor's Lapdog". In response, Leman Russ swore that he would cut the rebel leader's head from his shoulders and demanded that he be allowed to make an immediate attack on the rebel's headquarters. This impatient request was refused because The Lion had spent days gathering intelligence on the headquarters' defenses and had planned a detailed assault of his own. The Dark Angel attack went forward with few casualties and Russ could only watch from the grounds as Lion El'Jonson killed the rebel leader high on the walls of the fortress."

So how is it Jonson's fault again that Russ decided to Leeroy Jenkins the fortress?

Ah, so not only did he sucker punch Russ, he also denied him the right to remove the slight on his honour and kill the rebel leader as was Leman's right and privilege, all because Lion decided to show off how smart he thought he was outsmarting some humans.
If the Vlka Fenryka were allowed to attack with their full ferocity the rebels likely would have surrendered and killed the leader themselves.

Denied Russ the "right" to his petulant tantrum to soothe his ego? Cry me a river.

And "show off"? Sorry, but all I see is one attack succeeding where another Primarch simply raged because he headlong charged into a harder fight. Yes, the Lion is really showing off by not allowing stupidity to control. And as far as I can tell, Jonson didn't force Russ to hold anything back, in fact, it looks like Russ threw everything he could and still got bogged down in a fruitless battle.

 curran12 wrote:
Denied Russ the "right" to his petulant tantrum to soothe his ego? Cry me a river.

And "show off"? Sorry, but all I see is one attack succeeding where another Primarch simply raged because he headlong charged into a harder fight. Yes, the Lion is really showing off by not allowing stupidity to control. And as far as I can tell, Jonson didn't force Russ to hold anything back, in fact, it looks like Russ threw everything he could and still got bogged down in a fruitless battle.

These are warriors. Honour is a big deal. I would expect a Knight like El' Johnson would understand honour. If someone had called him a "Emo crosdressing showoff with an inferiority complex" he would have demanded that he be the one to kill him. And Russ would have let him.
Instead, Lion took the time to formulate a plan and make the Space Wolves watch while they took the glory and robbed Russ of the honour he rightly deserved. When Russ started laughing about it and announced how stupid and silly it was that they were fighting over this lowly human's corpse, admitting his own folly, the Kitty took offense and sucker punched him, unfair fight. Russ admitted his own failings, and not the first time. When the Emperor beat him on Fenris, he knelt without hesitation and admitted that his father was the better warrior. He was respected by many, especially Guilliman, and his Space Wolves were rightly feared for their ferocity and courage, so much so Horus sent them to the other side of the galaxy to make sure they wouldn't be able to stop him. To this day they stand for their beliefs and the common man no matter who seeks to oppose them, even the Inquistion.

By contrast, El' Johnson's Legacy. His sons are distrusted by everyone. Not like the Space Wolves who refuse to conform to others ideas, but because they pretend to follow the codex but are really still a legion. They hide the darkest secret, that half the Dark Angels Legion went traitor. Lion waited out the Heresy so he could be on the winning side, and he was arrogant to the point he believed he should have been Warmaster. He had few friends. And to top it off, his sons wear dresses like the woman the Space Wolves have serve them ale and food. The space wolves wear the skins of the giant motherfether wolves they kill with their bare hands.

Now tell me. I will concede Lion may have won the fight, but who is the superior Legion and the bigger man?

They are warriors, but they were there to do a job. Jonson was there to get the job done, recognizing a pathetic warlord as nothing to trifle over. It only became a matter of glory when Russ' ego got bruised. That's hardly warrior material. And certainly nothing worth letting more men die to appease. They are persecuting a crusade, and you expect Jonson to let his men die and his allies die so that Russ can thump his chest over a nobody warlord?

Wow Deadshot you cannot be serious, Curran just proved how much of an honor bound idiot Russ truly is and you ignore it completely.
Russ is a huge egomaniac and all round hypocrite, It's befitting he lead a Legion of mutts.

Russ in that action proved he's not above a medieval warlord, Surely not deserving to lead a Legion of Astartes, He puts his pride and name before achieving the objective.

Khonsu wrote:
Wow Deadshot you cannot be serious, Curran just proved how much of an honor bound idiot Russ truly is and you ignore it completely.
Russ is a huge egomaniac and all round hypocrite, It's befitting he lead a Legion of mutts.

Russ in that action proved he's not above a medieval warlord, Surely not deserving to lead a Legion of Astartes, He puts his pride and name before achieving the objective.

Idiot, really? So the Imperial Fists are not honour bound idiots? Or the Luna Wolves? The Ultramarines? The Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Salamanders, the Raven Guard? Even the World Eaters had honour to protect. Did Lion have none?
Russ' objective, as was with any Primarch or servant of the Emperor, is to pursue the Great Crusade and let none stand before them. The rebel insulted the Emperor personally, and then both Him and the Space Wolves by calling the Emperor's son a common dog. It was a personal insult that Russ couldn't let go unanswered. Russ in that moment stood for the whole Imperial Truth and the Emperor, not just himself. It was his duty to finish the job. This was about beliefs and your whole ethos of life. His objective, as The Emperor's Executioner, is to strike fear into the hearts of all those who oppose the Imperium, and should they resist, smash them asunder.
Russ was going to charge headfirst in. Dumb idea? Tactically speaking. But that's why he did it. He wanted to send a message that the Space Wolves were unstoppable, and no matter where you hide or what stands before you, to defy the Vlka Fenryka was to bring your world crashing down around you.

Mutts, really? Why? Because the Wolfy wolferson? The Space Wolvez are wolves. They fight as a pack. They live, fight, die for one another. They embrace each other as brothers and they drink and they share the spoils of the hunt. Tell me, what makes them mutts? A different culture that seems technologically regressive? Or is it your view on their 40k representation.

Hypocrit? Where? The psyker thing? Even if they are psykers, they cling to the belief that the spirit of Fenris gives them their power. You are a hypocrite if you go against your own beliefs and the Space Wolves believe something different.

I did no such thing as to ignore the statement. I acknowledged it, he is honour bound. He is of the Legiones Astartes. They are all honour bound.

Sure, some Space Wolves might have died. They knew and were ready and willing to die for their cause. Lion El'Johnson, and it seems you guys, don't seem to understand that. The Crusade isn't a job that needs doing. A Crusade is a holy war, a war of beliefs and ideals. Its a war not lead by blade but by the hearts and minds and souls of the men and women who fight for their cause. That's what Lion never understood. That's why he got pissy about Horus being Warmaster. He saw himself as the best man for the job. The Emperor saw Horus as the best man for the cause.

Unfortunately, the Wolves -were- stopped. They got bogged down in a pointless battle while the more prepared and less hotheaded Dark Angels completed the mission. Without a doubt, the Wolves would have eventually won, but at what cost in terms of resources and time? There was only one thing Russ was fighting for in his rage; himself. Every account of that battle says it was the insult to Russ as a "lapdog" that sent him into a froth and got him all out aggressive. It was Russ fighting for Russ. If he was fighting for the Emperor, or the Imperial creed, why did he not heed the counsel of those who had extensively planned the attack? If he was fighting for the Emperor, why did he attack Jonson for dispatching the enemy warlord?

The bottom line is that he wasn't thinking of any of those things. He was mad that he didn't get his moment of vengeance, and so he vented it out on the Primarch who waged a superior battle. It is that trait of honorable egotism that has carried on with the Wolves throughout the entire lore of 40k. It is self-centered machismo cloaked in 'honor' that consistently leads to greater damage on the Imperium's side than it does help.

And as far as Russ' loyalty to his 'pack' is concerned. If he is such a pillar of loyalty, why did he up and leave to go hunting when the Imperium was in need of leadership? Not only were the Wolves left in the lurch, but he also abandoned one of his own, Bjorn, so he could go chasing daemons. Loyalty? Doubtful. Selfishness? Yes.