nengstrm wrote:
Ah, Gonna edit it.. Now!

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

So you're protecting the BSB against the least threatening thing to him. Sure. That's...ok, I guess. I prefer protecting my BSB against the important things like death and cannon snipes. Which you cannot do with the shield. Plus, in the mirror math, it becomes quite even more evidently bad.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

So you're protecting the BSB against the least threatening thing to him. Sure. That's...ok, I guess. I prefer protecting my BSB against the important things like death and cannon snipes. Which you cannot do with the shield. Plus, in the mirror math, it becomes quite even more evidently bad.

At maximum you're getting a 4++ against Death Magic snipes and Cannons. A 5++ is only one step down from that, a step down that probably won't make much of a difference, considering that you have the protection of dispelling against the former, and Look Out Sir! against the latter. In sacrificing that one step down, I gain better combat prowess, a bonus for the BSB's unit and much greater protection against regular combat attacks. Like you say, they aren't the most threatening thing. Very few combat attacks have the power to wipe out your BSB in one fell swoop like Death magic snipes or cannonballs, but, unlike those things, it's something you will encounter in every game: they're far more common.

nengstrm wrote:
Thank you for all the knowledge and reply's!

Two questions tho, arent the magic items on characters included in the 25% lord/hero poll of points?
And is it viable to change the spearmen to archers and try to take down harder units with mass fire (as the old IG player I'am )

 The Shadow wrote:
It does depend on what type of armies you fight but, although at certain tournaments it may be different (still at none I've ever attended), most normal games will focus on combat. Furthermore, if you're taking the argument that defending against combat attacks isn't important because you're likely not to get into it, then you shouldn't be taking a combat unit in the first place. At that point, the whole list gets completely switched around and we're no longer critiquing a list, but rather suggesting ones we deem superior, and that's not the point of this forum.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, for a defensive list, you should run sea guard over spear men, because more shots as they close in an stand and shoot as an option. also, if you have them a unit of phoenix guard with BotWD is amazing, also bring around 2 units of 10 archers just to shoot them to death before they can get to your lines. though it seems to me you are building a more aggresive list than anything