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So this is my first list!

Archmage lvl 4 - Talisman of protection 265p
Mage lvl 2 - Dispel Scroll 145p
Noble (BSB) - Shield, Heavy Armour 101p

5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 105p
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 105p
32x Spearmen - Full command 318p

32x White Lions - Full Command- BotWD 496p

3x Eagle Claw Bolthrower 210p
1x Frostheartphoenix 240p
1x Great Eagle 50p

The archmage will go with the Spearmen and the Mage and BSB with the white lions. The plan is to stay defensive with the Spearmen/White Lions and use magic/RBT to thin down the enemy. One unit of reaver + frostheart (or Great eagle) on each flank to hunt warmachines.

So.. Any improvments?

I'm not a HE player so I have no opinion on the list.

But Armour of Silvered Steel can't be improved with a shield. So you may as well drop it.

Ah, Gonna edit it.. Now!

nengstrm wrote:
Ah, Gonna edit it.. Now!

You either go for the Enchanted shield, 4+ ward and dragon armour on a BSB. Or the Armour of Caledor.

Its getting there!

Archmage lvl 4 - Talisman of protection 265p
Mage lvl 2 - Dispel Scroll 145p
Noble (BSB) - Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour 110p

5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 105p
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 105p
31x Spearmen - Full command 318p

32x White Lions - Full Command- BotWD 496p

3x Eagle Claw Bolthrower 210p
1x Frostheartphoenix 240p
1x Great Eagle 50p

And the 4+ ward on the BSB. The main threat to him is stuff that ignores armour. So you need defense against that. Cannons and the like.

Ok, the list isn't bad, there's just a few things I'd change.

Firstly, you need to decide what Lore you're using on your Mages as part of your list. This has a huge impact on how your army works, especially with Elves, so it's very important when we're critiquing lists. It's a tough one, but I would recommend Shadow on your Lvl4, since many aspects of your army (RBTs, Spearmen) really appreciate the support from Shadow Magic and, generally speaking, White Lions do fine on their own. However, it would be nice to have a little more protection for your White Lions so I'd recommend running your Lvl2 in the unit and using High Magic, or dropping him to a Lvl1 and using Life (for Earth Blood). It may also be worth running your BSB in there with Khaine's Ring. Alternatively, I've been running Heavens on my Lvl4 at 2k with a similar list, as a sort of "neutral" lore, and it's been working rather well.

Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

To pay for these changes, I'd cut down on your Core (you're 28 points over the minimum, so drop 3 Spearmen), take the above option of dropping your Mage down to Lvl1 and running Life, and maybe considering dropping an RBT and/or the BotWD on your White Lions (in my experience it's either too good or not useful at all). If you can get a few more White Lions into the bargain, then that's great. If not, it's something to remember for when you expand your list up to 2400/2500.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

Lore of Death is amazing against most armies for attacking (I know your on the defensive but just in case...) and for defence Lore of Life. If you wanted a mixture Lore of High Magic is great. As for magic items, (for your Archmage) I would have the Sword of Battle or Sword of Strife as he is really weak if he gets into close combat and the Channeling Staff as it helps him get extra dice to roll. For your Mage I would choose Earthing Rod and the Seed of Rebirth. For your BSB, Ruby Ring of Ruin or Khaine's Ring of Fury as well as Armour of Silvered Steel and Dragonbane Gem. All these IMHO are amazing and I always use them with my High Elf army. Hope this helps

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

So you're protecting the BSB against the least threatening thing to him. Sure. That's...ok, I guess. I prefer protecting my BSB against the important things like death and cannon snipes. Which you cannot do with the shield. Plus, in the mirror math, it becomes quite even more evidently bad.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

So you're protecting the BSB against the least threatening thing to him. Sure. That's...ok, I guess. I prefer protecting my BSB against the important things like death and cannon snipes. Which you cannot do with the shield. Plus, in the mirror math, it becomes quite even more evidently bad.

At maximum you're getting a 4++ against Death Magic snipes and Cannons. A 5++ is only one step down from that, a step down that probably won't make much of a difference, considering that you have the protection of dispelling against the former, and Look Out Sir! against the latter. In sacrificing that one step down, I gain better combat prowess, a bonus for the BSB's unit and much greater protection against regular combat attacks. Like you say, they aren't the most threatening thing. Very few combat attacks have the power to wipe out your BSB in one fell swoop like Death magic snipes or cannonballs, but, unlike those things, it's something you will encounter in every game: they're far more common.

The way I see it is that enemy cannons will be shooting the phoenix, eagle, and bolt throwers before they start trying to get past a 2+ look out sir on the BSB. As for death snipes, if he's being protected by the BotWD then who cares what ward save he has. So might as well give him a 4+ parry from the Shield of the Merwyrm for mundane attacks in combat. Or just stick with dragon armor.

Thank you for all the knowledge and reply's!

Two questions tho, arent the magic items on characters included in the 25% lord/hero poll of points?
And is it viable to change the spearmen to archers and try to take down harder units with mass fire (as the old IG player I'am )

Gonna rewrite the list, posting it asap


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now then, I hesitate to put more offensiv things on the BSB. Even tho he is the only "melee" character my whole army is based around wither the enemy by range attacks then counterattack/swipe the forces that get the close witht he WL unit.
Here goes:

Archmage lvl 4 - Shadow Magic - Book of Hoeth - Golden Crown of Atrazaar- 285p
Mage lvl 2 - High Magic - Dispel Scroll 145p
Noble (BSB) - Shield, Armour of Destiny 147p

5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 102p (one dosent have a bow)
5x Ellyrian Reavers - Musician - Bows 105p
29x Spearmen - Full command 291p

32x White Lions - Full Command- BotWD 496p

2x Eagle Claw Bolthrower 210p
1x Frostheartphoenix 240p
1x Great Eagle 50p

The AM will stay with the spearmen trying to cast dmg spells or hexex. The Bsb and mage will go with the WL. Everything will stay put trying to use the RBT while the reavers/eagle/frostheart flank warmarchines and or easy targets.
or?

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Speaking of your BSB's equipment, I'd recommend one of the following builds: Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Obsidian Trinket / Sword of Might or Dragon Armour / Shield of the Merwyrm / Khaine's Ring / Biting Blade. This strikes a good balance between protection and damage output. Your Lvl4 should also take the Book of Hoeth and, preferably, at least the Talisman of Endurance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A 4+ parry is not good. It provides protection to an area the character needs it least. If you can get a good save, and a ward, then it works. But a 4+ ward is far more important.

I prefer the first build. Against virtually all close combat attacks you get a 4++. The only exceptions to this are rear/flank attacks, the kind of situation in which your BSB should not be accepting a challenge (he should never really accept one anyway, that's what the champ is for), so, at worst, your BSB is having 3 models attack him and not his unit (which could be beneficial, as he has better saves than the White Lions) and impact hits and stomps, which your BSB is only on the receiving end of is you're fool enough to accept a challenge from, say, an Ogre Tyrant (ok, fair enough, you'll want to challenge a Firebelly, but that's one model) or if the unit is practically dead already.

The obsidian trinket and Dragon Armour combine to still give a 5++ against Death Magic snipes which is pretty good, and the trinket gives a 6++ vs MMs to the whole unit which can further be boosted by a High Magic mage. And then against cannonballs you have a 2+ Look Out Sir! save, unless, again, the unit is virtually destroyed.

On top of that, you're striking at S5. To do that with either the Armour of Caledor or the Tali of Pres, you need to make sacrifices: you'll need to take a Halberd, which means you'll be on a 2+/6++ in combat for the former (granted, this is decent, though not quite as good all round) or a 5+/4++ for the former. That's compared to the Merwyrm's build of a 4+/4++ against normal CC attacks. The armour of Caledor is only better if you can be guaranteed you're going up against low strength attacks all the time.

So you're protecting the BSB against the least threatening thing to him. Sure. That's...ok, I guess. I prefer protecting my BSB against the important things like death and cannon snipes. Which you cannot do with the shield. Plus, in the mirror math, it becomes quite even more evidently bad.

At maximum you're getting a 4++ against Death Magic snipes and Cannons. A 5++ is only one step down from that, a step down that probably won't make much of a difference, considering that you have the protection of dispelling against the former, and Look Out Sir! against the latter. In sacrificing that one step down, I gain better combat prowess, a bonus for the BSB's unit and much greater protection against regular combat attacks. Like you say, they aren't the most threatening thing. Very few combat attacks have the power to wipe out your BSB in one fell swoop like Death magic snipes or cannonballs, but, unlike those things, it's something you will encounter in every game: they're far more common.

Actually, not many armies do combat anymore. Apart from those with monstrous can. Wood elves render the shield useless. As do dark elves, for the most part. So do dwarfs. And Lizardmen. Tomb kings run the gunline pretty well, technically it's the best shooting in the game. OnG won't fight you.

So the 4++ is a better shout as it gives you a 3+/4++ to everything and then you can stick him in a deathstar so he doesn't have to worry about fighting.

It does depend on what type of armies you fight but, although at certain tournaments it may be different (still at none I've ever attended), most normal games will focus on combat. Furthermore, if you're taking the argument that defending against combat attacks isn't important because you're likely not to get into it, then you shouldn't be taking a combat unit in the first place. At that point, the whole list gets completely switched around and we're no longer critiquing a list, but rather suggesting ones we deem superior, and that's not the point of this forum.

nengstrm wrote:
Thank you for all the knowledge and reply's!

Two questions tho, arent the magic items on characters included in the 25% lord/hero poll of points?
And is it viable to change the spearmen to archers and try to take down harder units with mass fire (as the old IG player I'am )

Yes, they are. Although it's 50% now.

Archers are arguably more competitive than spearmen in every way. They hit nearly as hard for one point more, and their longbows are great at whittling away at units. Plus the extra rank that spearmen need to get the extra attacks usually doesn't last long if they get into combat.

 The Shadow wrote:
It does depend on what type of armies you fight but, although at certain tournaments it may be different (still at none I've ever attended), most normal games will focus on combat. Furthermore, if you're taking the argument that defending against combat attacks isn't important because you're likely not to get into it, then you shouldn't be taking a combat unit in the first place. At that point, the whole list gets completely switched around and we're no longer critiquing a list, but rather suggesting ones we deem superior, and that's not the point of this forum.

I'm actually saying that combat is the least threatening situation for the BSB and that a 3+/4++ is far more versatile.

well, for a defensive list, you should run sea guard over spear men, because more shots as they close in an stand and shoot as an option. also, if you have them a unit of phoenix guard with BotWD is amazing, also bring around 2 units of 10 archers just to shoot them to death before they can get to your lines. though it seems to me you are building a more aggresive list than anything

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, for a defensive list, you should run sea guard over spear men, because more shots as they close in an stand and shoot as an option. also, if you have them a unit of phoenix guard with BotWD is amazing, also bring around 2 units of 10 archers just to shoot them to death before they can get to your lines. though it seems to me you are building a more aggresive list than anything

Defensive list =/= subpar.