God In Action wrote:
The biggest problem is definitely the gun. It's optimum effectiveness (against MEQs, out of cover, at under 9" range) is just too niche for the unit to be reliably effective in a game.

A Hot Shot lasgun is too low a strength to seriously threaten most units. Any sort of cover makes the AP3 an instantly wasted points investment and less effective than two lasguns. The weirdly short range just makes Scions difficult to get into position- they force very squishy, but quite expensive, guardsmen to get close to whatever unit they want to kill, putting them into charge range for the enemy's turn.

The simplest and easiest fix would be to give the weapon the same 24" range as a lasgun. *Maybe* consider S4 too. And make the Pistol 12" too.

 God In Action wrote:
The biggest problem is definitely the gun. It's optimum effectiveness (against MEQs, out of cover, at under 9" range) is just too niche for the unit to be reliably effective in a game.

A Hot Shot lasgun is too low a strength to seriously threaten most units. Any sort of cover makes the AP3 an instantly wasted points investment and less effective than two lasguns. The weirdly short range just makes Scions difficult to get into position- they force very squishy, but quite expensive, guardsmen to get close to whatever unit they want to kill, putting them into charge range for the enemy's turn.

The simplest and easiest fix would be to give the weapon the same 24" range as a lasgun. *Maybe* consider S4 too. And make the Pistol 12" too.

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

mr. peasant wrote:

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

At the moment, GW is over-valuing the Hot shot lasgun. Based on the Inquisition codex, a Hot-shot lasgun is valued at +5 ppm relative to a Lasgun, in contrast to Boltguns which are only +1 ppm vs Lasguns. In my opinion, Hot-shot lasguns are at best equal in value to Boltguns. Meaning, Scions should realistically be 8 ppm; with a basic Scion Squad costing 50 points and the Command Squad 65 points.

 kingbobbito wrote:

mr. peasant wrote:

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

At the moment, GW is over-valuing the Hot shot lasgun. Based on the Inquisition codex, a Hot-shot lasgun is valued at +5 ppm relative to a Lasgun, in contrast to Boltguns which are only +1 ppm vs Lasguns. In my opinion, Hot-shot lasguns are at best equal in value to Boltguns. Meaning, Scions should realistically be 8 ppm; with a basic Scion Squad costing 50 points and the Command Squad 65 points.

In an open void shooting contest, scions would most likely beat the marines. Only half as many wounds dealt, but no saves for the marines. Sure, against orks and guard the bolter is better, but against anything better than a 5+ armor the hot shot should generally win. On marines they'd most likely be a 5 point upgrade, so on scions maybe 3 or 4 points.

Plus, where are you getting that scions pay 5 ppm for hot shot? I mean, even comparing them to veterans who are 6 points proves otherwise (or assuming the sergeant cost 10 points more than the other members like the tempestor is, you're at 5 ppm). +1 for krak grenades, +1.5 for armor, add in DS and move through cover at 2 points (at least).... you're already at 9.5-10.5 ppm. If they're 12 ppm to add more to the squad, you're paying 1.5-2.5 per hot shot.

 TheSilo wrote:
Incorrect, in open field shooting they are equal. Of course that is ignoring that the marines have 33% more range, or the fact that cover makes the Marines twice as survivable in a firefight. Which gets to the point that as high-priced specialists, Scions aren't even that good against their preferred target, they are two deep-striking special weapons, nothing else.

Marines shooting at Scions
- 2/3rds of shots hit, 2/3rds of shots wound, 1/2 fail armor = 2/9 dead Scions per shot expected

Scions shooting Marines
- 2/3rds hit, 1/3rd wound, no armor = 2/9 dead Marines per shot expected

Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Incorrect, in open field shooting they are equal. Of course that is ignoring that the marines have 33% more range, or the fact that cover makes the Marines twice as survivable in a firefight. Which gets to the point that as high-priced specialists, Scions aren't even that good against their preferred target, they are two deep-striking special weapons, nothing else.

Marines shooting at Scions
- 2/3rds of shots hit, 2/3rds of shots wound, 1/2 fail armor = 2/9 dead Scions per shot expected

Scions shooting Marines
- 2/3rds hit, 1/3rd wound, no armor = 2/9 dead Marines per shot expected

Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

Sorry, hadn't run the math before posting that. However, if you consider that they DS and should get the first shot, they'll generally beat marines since they match evenly. And for a squad that costs the same as marines, that should generally beat marines, you've got a win. This is decent unit balancing. Throw in that they can carry two special weapons, park them in ruins with two volleyguns and you'll do decent work.

I'm not saying they're spectacular, but they match a unit of equal points, and that's not bad. The only thing I could say the unit deserves is an upgrade to their range, but no points drop.

 TheSilo wrote:
They're certainly more useful than in 5th when they were 16ppm. But a few simple changes would make them much more practical. Their short range makes them very awkward to use: it doesn't synergize with special weapons, orders require the weird situation where you're within 12" of an officer and 18" of an enemy after deep striking, and being rapid fire means you can't even assault after firing. Even more awkward is that a squad's sergeant cannot take a rifle, so most of the time you've got 2 decent special weapons, 2 mediocre riflemen, and 1 useless sergeant.

Any one or all of these changes would help a lot:

- Allow the sergeant to take a rifle
- 24" range on the rifle, maybe drop it to Ap 4
- Voice of command on tempestors
- Allow up to 4 special weapons in a squad

 koooaei wrote:
Change hotshot lazgun to be s4 ap5 or ap6 rapid fire 18" - basically, an shorter range bolter. Lower the scion's price to 8-9 ppm. Make a sarge akin to marines - no extra cost, no extra buffs, +5-10 ppm if you want him to be upgraded to vet.

Thus, you get a more reasonably priced squad that's no longer as niche as a s3 ap3 squad, is a much better special weapon carrier due to price. Still total glasshammer with overpriced dedicated transports. So, the feeling remains the same.

 TheSilo wrote:
Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Change hotshot lazgun to be s4 ap5 or ap6 rapid fire 18" - basically, an shorter range bolter. Lower the scion's price to 8-9 ppm. Make a sarge akin to marines - no extra cost, no extra buffs, +5-10 ppm if you want him to be upgraded to vet.

Thus, you get a more reasonably priced squad that's no longer as niche as a s3 ap3 squad, is a much better special weapon carrier due to price. Still total glasshammer with overpriced dedicated transports. So, the feeling remains the same.

The issue with that is that it already costs that much to get veterans with that equipment, and you're getting better guns and DS and move through cover. Plus, making them strength 4 AP 5 not only goes against fluff, but also makes them completely opposite their battlefield role. They're for dealing with heavy infantry, where if you give them bolters with a 9" rapid fire they're going to do little against basic infantry. You'd be better off putting a vet squad in an allied drop pod or driving up in a chimera.

 TheSilo wrote:
To correct myself, carapace+krak veterans would be 8.5 ppm not 9.5 ppm.