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I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

It's beacuse they have Ap3 Lasguns.

The biggest problem is definitely the gun. It's optimum effectiveness (against MEQs, out of cover, at under 9" range) is just too niche for the unit to be reliably effective in a game.

A Hot Shot lasgun is too low a strength to seriously threaten most units. Any sort of cover makes the AP3 an instantly wasted points investment and less effective than two lasguns. The weirdly short range just makes Scions difficult to get into position- they force very squishy, but quite expensive, guardsmen to get close to whatever unit they want to kill, putting them into charge range for the enemy's turn.

The simplest and easiest fix would be to give the weapon the same 24" range as a lasgun. *Maybe* consider S4 too. And make the Pistol 12" too.

 God In Action wrote:
The biggest problem is definitely the gun. It's optimum effectiveness (against MEQs, out of cover, at under 9" range) is just too niche for the unit to be reliably effective in a game.

A Hot Shot lasgun is too low a strength to seriously threaten most units. Any sort of cover makes the AP3 an instantly wasted points investment and less effective than two lasguns. The weirdly short range just makes Scions difficult to get into position- they force very squishy, but quite expensive, guardsmen to get close to whatever unit they want to kill, putting them into charge range for the enemy's turn.

The simplest and easiest fix would be to give the weapon the same 24" range as a lasgun. *Maybe* consider S4 too. And make the Pistol 12" too.

Yeah, that'd do me. Be a good pain in the ass for anyone who invested in an armoursave.

 God In Action wrote:
The biggest problem is definitely the gun. It's optimum effectiveness (against MEQs, out of cover, at under 9" range) is just too niche for the unit to be reliably effective in a game.

A Hot Shot lasgun is too low a strength to seriously threaten most units. Any sort of cover makes the AP3 an instantly wasted points investment and less effective than two lasguns. The weirdly short range just makes Scions difficult to get into position- they force very squishy, but quite expensive, guardsmen to get close to whatever unit they want to kill, putting them into charge range for the enemy's turn.

The simplest and easiest fix would be to give the weapon the same 24" range as a lasgun. *Maybe* consider S4 too. And make the Pistol 12" too.

I think it'd be better to give all Tempestors voice of command. You're now rolling first rank fire against leadership 8 and you always have access to orders.

Better solution is to allow scions to receive orders at any distance (call it a tele-vox caster) so now you can issue Ignore Cover and Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter to any scion squad on the table from your CCS. This plays better practically and fluff-wise than the current state of scions.

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

At the moment, GW is over-valuing the Hot shot lasgun. Based on the Inquisition codex, a Hot-shot lasgun is valued at +5 ppm relative to a Lasgun, in contrast to Boltguns which are only +1 ppm vs Lasguns. In my opinion, Hot-shot lasguns are at best equal in value to Boltguns. Meaning, Scions should realistically be 8 ppm; with a basic Scion Squad costing 50 points and the Command Squad 65 points.

mr. peasant wrote:

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

At the moment, GW is over-valuing the Hot shot lasgun. Based on the Inquisition codex, a Hot-shot lasgun is valued at +5 ppm relative to a Lasgun, in contrast to Boltguns which are only +1 ppm vs Lasguns. In my opinion, Hot-shot lasguns are at best equal in value to Boltguns. Meaning, Scions should realistically be 8 ppm; with a basic Scion Squad costing 50 points and the Command Squad 65 points.

In an open void shooting contest, scions would most likely beat the marines. Only half as many wounds dealt, but no saves for the marines. Sure, against orks and guard the bolter is better, but against anything better than a 5+ armor the hot shot should generally win. On marines they'd most likely be a 5 point upgrade, so on scions maybe 3 or 4 points.

Plus, where are you getting that scions pay 5 ppm for hot shot? I mean, even comparing them to veterans who are 6 points proves otherwise (or assuming the sergeant cost 10 points more than the other members like the tempestor is, you're at 5 ppm). +1 for krak grenades, +1.5 for armor, add in DS and move through cover at 2 points (at least).... you're already at 9.5-10.5 ppm. If they're 12 ppm to add more to the squad, you're paying 1.5-2.5 per hot shot.

 kingbobbito wrote:

mr. peasant wrote:

LessThen1intiative wrote:
I apologize if this is a repost of some one else's topic


As it stands right now a full squad of scions is around 10 points less expensive then a full squad of marines. however their stats are no where near as strong as an space marine so why are they so expensive? Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the initial point value by 5 points and then drop the points for extra scions by 2? making them a 115 points for a single squad however almost as expensive as a full squad of guard but twice the model cost. The reasoning for suggesting it as i see it the only thing that makes the difference between a full squad of veterans with the grenedier upgrade and a scion is the scion gets hotshot las rather then just lasguns which is still a much worse point for point value versus a space marine; 11.5 for scions and 14 for a marine (that being said it's still pretty unbalanced all things considered).

At the moment, GW is over-valuing the Hot shot lasgun. Based on the Inquisition codex, a Hot-shot lasgun is valued at +5 ppm relative to a Lasgun, in contrast to Boltguns which are only +1 ppm vs Lasguns. In my opinion, Hot-shot lasguns are at best equal in value to Boltguns. Meaning, Scions should realistically be 8 ppm; with a basic Scion Squad costing 50 points and the Command Squad 65 points.

In an open void shooting contest, scions would most likely beat the marines. Only half as many wounds dealt, but no saves for the marines. Sure, against orks and guard the bolter is better, but against anything better than a 5+ armor the hot shot should generally win. On marines they'd most likely be a 5 point upgrade, so on scions maybe 3 or 4 points.

Plus, where are you getting that scions pay 5 ppm for hot shot? I mean, even comparing them to veterans who are 6 points proves otherwise (or assuming the sergeant cost 10 points more than the other members like the tempestor is, you're at 5 ppm). +1 for krak grenades, +1.5 for armor, add in DS and move through cover at 2 points (at least).... you're already at 9.5-10.5 ppm. If they're 12 ppm to add more to the squad, you're paying 1.5-2.5 per hot shot.

Incorrect, in open field shooting they are equal. Of course that is ignoring that the marines have 33% more range, or the fact that cover makes the Marines twice as survivable in a firefight. Which gets to the point that as high-priced specialists, Scions aren't even that good against their preferred target, they are two deep-striking special weapons, nothing else.

Marines shooting at Scions
- 2/3rds of shots hit, 2/3rds of shots wound, 1/2 fail armor = 2/9 dead Scions per shot expected

Scions shooting Marines
- 2/3rds hit, 1/3rd wound, no armor = 2/9 dead Marines per shot expected

Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 8.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 3.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

 TheSilo wrote:
Incorrect, in open field shooting they are equal. Of course that is ignoring that the marines have 33% more range, or the fact that cover makes the Marines twice as survivable in a firefight. Which gets to the point that as high-priced specialists, Scions aren't even that good against their preferred target, they are two deep-striking special weapons, nothing else.

Marines shooting at Scions
- 2/3rds of shots hit, 2/3rds of shots wound, 1/2 fail armor = 2/9 dead Scions per shot expected

Scions shooting Marines
- 2/3rds hit, 1/3rd wound, no armor = 2/9 dead Marines per shot expected

Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

Sorry, hadn't run the math before posting that. However, if you consider that they DS and should get the first shot, they'll generally beat marines since they match evenly. And for a squad that costs the same as marines, that should generally beat marines, you've got a win. This is decent unit balancing. Throw in that they can carry two special weapons, park them in ruins with two volleyguns and you'll do decent work.

I'm not saying they're spectacular, but they match a unit of equal points, and that's not bad. The only thing I could say the unit deserves is an upgrade to their range, but no points drop.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Incorrect, in open field shooting they are equal. Of course that is ignoring that the marines have 33% more range, or the fact that cover makes the Marines twice as survivable in a firefight. Which gets to the point that as high-priced specialists, Scions aren't even that good against their preferred target, they are two deep-striking special weapons, nothing else.

Marines shooting at Scions
- 2/3rds of shots hit, 2/3rds of shots wound, 1/2 fail armor = 2/9 dead Scions per shot expected

Scions shooting Marines
- 2/3rds hit, 1/3rd wound, no armor = 2/9 dead Marines per shot expected

Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

Sorry, hadn't run the math before posting that. However, if you consider that they DS and should get the first shot, they'll generally beat marines since they match evenly. And for a squad that costs the same as marines, that should generally beat marines, you've got a win. This is decent unit balancing. Throw in that they can carry two special weapons, park them in ruins with two volleyguns and you'll do decent work.

I'm not saying they're spectacular, but they match a unit of equal points, and that's not bad. The only thing I could say the unit deserves is an upgrade to their range, but no points drop.

They're certainly more useful than in 5th when they were 16ppm. But a few simple changes would make them much more practical. Their short range makes them very awkward to use: it doesn't synergize with special weapons, orders require the weird situation where you're within 12" of an officer and 18" of an enemy after deep striking, and being rapid fire means you can't even assault after firing. Even more awkward is that a squad's sergeant cannot take a rifle, so most of the time you've got 2 decent special weapons, 2 mediocre riflemen, and 1 useless sergeant.

Any one or all of these changes would help a lot:

- Allow the sergeant to take a rifle
- 24" range on the rifle, maybe drop it to Ap 4
- Voice of command on tempestors
- Allow up to 4 special weapons in a squad

 TheSilo wrote:
They're certainly more useful than in 5th when they were 16ppm. But a few simple changes would make them much more practical. Their short range makes them very awkward to use: it doesn't synergize with special weapons, orders require the weird situation where you're within 12" of an officer and 18" of an enemy after deep striking, and being rapid fire means you can't even assault after firing. Even more awkward is that a squad's sergeant cannot take a rifle, so most of the time you've got 2 decent special weapons, 2 mediocre riflemen, and 1 useless sergeant.

Any one or all of these changes would help a lot:

- Allow the sergeant to take a rifle
- 24" range on the rifle, maybe drop it to Ap 4
- Voice of command on tempestors
- Allow up to 4 special weapons in a squad

The only one of those I can disagree with is making them AP4, you just lost your ability to hurt 90% of the stuff you want scions to shoot. Stuff with armor 4 is better dealt with using heavy bolters and autocannons, and if you play marines your scions are utterly useless.

I'd agree either 24" rapid fire or Assault 2 at 18" would be a welcome improvement though.

Assault 3 hotshots, 18'' range, stick e'm at 12ppm.

Change hotshot lazgun to be s4 ap5 or ap6 rapid fire 18" - basically, an shorter range bolter. Lower the scion's price to 8-9 ppm. Make a sarge akin to marines - no extra cost, no extra buffs, +5-10 ppm if you want him to be upgraded to vet.

Thus, you get a more reasonably priced squad that's no longer as niche as a s3 ap3 squad, is a much better special weapon carrier due to price. Still total glasshammer with overpriced dedicated transports. So, the feeling remains the same.

 koooaei wrote:
Change hotshot lazgun to be s4 ap5 or ap6 rapid fire 18" - basically, an shorter range bolter. Lower the scion's price to 8-9 ppm. Make a sarge akin to marines - no extra cost, no extra buffs, +5-10 ppm if you want him to be upgraded to vet.

Thus, you get a more reasonably priced squad that's no longer as niche as a s3 ap3 squad, is a much better special weapon carrier due to price. Still total glasshammer with overpriced dedicated transports. So, the feeling remains the same.

The issue with that is that it already costs that much to get veterans with that equipment, and you're getting better guns and DS and move through cover. Plus, making them strength 4 AP 5 not only goes against fluff, but also makes them completely opposite their battlefield role. They're for dealing with heavy infantry, where if you give them bolters with a 9" rapid fire they're going to do little against basic infantry. You'd be better off putting a vet squad in an allied drop pod or driving up in a chimera.

 TheSilo wrote:
Peasant isn't doing the correct accounting either though. Carapace armored veterans with krak grenades would cost 9.5 ppm, and that's before the hotshot gun, deep strike, or move through cover. So those three special rules combined account for 2.5 ppm. The biggest problem is that their weapon is both S3 and only 18" range (the sgts pistol is only 6" range!), combined with their deep-strike scatter they're not going to do much damage on the turn they arrive. Almost all 3+ units are also T4, making hslgs really ineffective, and they're just lasguns when targeting units in cover. It's just not clear that the hotshot lasgun is better than the lasgun, against 4+ or worse the lasgun v hotshot is a wash due to the different rapid fire ranges, and against units in cover the lasgun is almost always superior.

My math is based on the price listing quoted in Codex: Inquisition. Specifically, the value of Boltguns and Hot-shot lasguns are both listed in direct comparison against another; to which GW values the Hot-shot lasgun at 5 points vs the Boltgun's 1 point, when either are being upgraded from an Acolyte's Lasgun. This provides direct evidence from GW itself regarding the relative impact of both weapons towards a unit's cost and consequently, why Scions are as expensive as they are. It's not for the Krak grenades or the Carapace armour or even the special rules (all of which Marines have equal or better equivalents). It's because of the Hot-shot lasguns.

I admit that my straight deduction is a touch simplistic. After all, there's a tendency for things to receive a "group discount" whenever they are included by default. Sort of to compensate for the choice being taken away. However, to claim that only 2.5 points account for the Scions' "Move through cover", "Deep strike", and Hot-shot lasguns is most definitely wrong. Otherwise, Boltguns would only be costing 0.5 points or less per Marine.

Cost is fine as is.

Just give them back the Special Mission special rule and the Helpistol/CCW from 5th and you're back in business. That Rule was why they were so expensive by comparison, as it gave them a lot of tactical flexibility. Add in an Officer of the Fleet and some ADL Comms...

To correct myself, carapace+krak veterans would be 8.5 ppm not 9.5 ppm.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Change hotshot lazgun to be s4 ap5 or ap6 rapid fire 18" - basically, an shorter range bolter. Lower the scion's price to 8-9 ppm. Make a sarge akin to marines - no extra cost, no extra buffs, +5-10 ppm if you want him to be upgraded to vet.

Thus, you get a more reasonably priced squad that's no longer as niche as a s3 ap3 squad, is a much better special weapon carrier due to price. Still total glasshammer with overpriced dedicated transports. So, the feeling remains the same.

The issue with that is that it already costs that much to get veterans with that equipment, and you're getting better guns and DS and move through cover. Plus, making them strength 4 AP 5 not only goes against fluff, but also makes them completely opposite their battlefield role. They're for dealing with heavy infantry, where if you give them bolters with a 9" rapid fire they're going to do little against basic infantry. You'd be better off putting a vet squad in an allied drop pod or driving up in a chimera.

It's fine for an elite allied squad. But if they are deployed as a standalone force they should have some more generalised weapons.

Another thought is to indoctrinate them and pay actual points for the benefits they get.

A single Scion would cost 9 ppm (or how much you think they should cost without DS) and get MTC.

A squad can select one of the following doctrines:
- Paratroopers - the squad gets Deepstrike - 15 pts
- Outflankers - the squad gets Outflank - 10 pts
- Forward sentries - the squad gets Scout - 25 pts
- Infiltrators - the squad gets Infiltrate - 35 pts

This way, you can choose a role for each squad. Furthermore, the fixed doctrine price encourages larger squad numbers. Whereas you don't need to pay for any of them if you want to just deploy scions on board or in valks.
The min 5 man squad would cost 45 pts and 70 if they get deepstrike - just like now (+10 for sarge). But the more you get - the cheaper they become per model - no more special weapons, though, so it's a trade.
The most useful doctrines - infiltrate and Scout cost extra and inspire you to take more guyz. But provide great tactical possibilities.

 TheSilo wrote:
To correct myself, carapace+krak veterans would be 8.5 ppm not 9.5 ppm.

I'd argue this is a guesstimate at best, without direct evidence from GW on the precise cost breakdown calculations for the unit. Just because optional upgrades for Carapace armour and Krak grenades work out to be 1.5 ppm and 1 ppm (on average) for Veterans does not automatically mean they cost the same for Scions since those items are mandatory for the models. What we do know is that GW over-values Hot-shot lasguns in a head-to-head comparison between them and Boltguns (as evidenced in Codex: Inquisition).

I'd not underestimate the value of deep strike and move through cover - especially in conjunction and especially especially in an environment where maelstrom of war games are now a big thing (note that throne of skulls is now pure maelstrom games). Mobile objective secured units are now a key element of the game, and are a tempestus speciality.

oh wow didn't expect so much discussion/replies ^.^

though we all may differ on many points i believe that there is a general consensus that scions point values are off or they definitely SEEM to be ...

If i had to throw one suggestion into the wind it would be give MT access to all IG transports not just the Valk and the Taurox.
(I just don't see a reason why they shouldn't have access in their own codex. )

In any case i do appreciate all the open discussion and that im not a crazy nutcase for thinking something was off about the point values


EDIT:

On a side note i do like the idea of the sargeant getting the rifle and the Assault 2 idea (since it makes more sense in my mind that they are a fast attack assault force).

I also see great benifit in giving the elite troops special training doctrines that could help them specialize in certain areas. The biggest problem scions face as an army not as the elite choice for IG is that they have absolutely no decent AT options. However this could be furthered rectified by giving them access to all the transports IG get (because they would now have access to vendettas) making them a much more viable army not just a allied choice. In my mind i wouldn't mind the point cost right now if it wasn't for the cost ineffectiveness of the squads as a whole.