marcman wrote:
Really? I thought that 5 wraithgaurd could only fit with a spiritseer in a wave serpent? Could I put the 5 wraiths with the archon in a raider? I feel like I would be one space short right?

 Ravenous D wrote:
You cant have 5 wraithguard + archon in a raider as that goes over capacity. You could do it with a Tantalus but now that's another 150pts into a bad tactic. The trick that works is joining a bike character to the units and make a "V" so you can actually fire them all. As mentioned its a gimmick tactic. It'll nuke out one thing and die in return. Plus bringing all the scythes to bear is no easy trick, especially since the flamers can only kill whats in range. Only hit 3 models with the whole squad? Great you can only kill those 3.

Its wasteful and easy to counter or bubble wrap against.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You cant have 5 wraithguard + archon in a raider as that goes over capacity. You could do it with a Tantalus but now that's another 150pts into a bad tactic. The trick that works is joining a bike character to the units and make a "V" so you can actually fire them all. As mentioned its a gimmick tactic. It'll nuke out one thing and die in return. Plus bringing all the scythes to bear is no easy trick, especially since the flamers can only kill whats in range. Only hit 3 models with the whole squad? Great you can only kill those 3.

Its wasteful and easy to counter or bubble wrap against.

Not quite - if you only hit three models but you can position your templates in such a way that you can touch more models in that unit, then they die too.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You cant have 5 wraithguard + archon in a raider as that goes over capacity. You could do it with a Tantalus but now that's another 150pts into a bad tactic. The trick that works is joining a bike character to the units and make a "V" so you can actually fire them all. As mentioned its a gimmick tactic. It'll nuke out one thing and die in return. Plus bringing all the scythes to bear is no easy trick, especially since the flamers can only kill whats in range. Only hit 3 models with the whole squad? Great you can only kill those 3.

Its wasteful and easy to counter or bubble wrap against.

Not quite - if you only hit three models but you can position your templates in such a way that you can touch more models in that unit, then they die too.

Yeah, it only kills what the templates can touch. and against vehicles you must maximize the amount of the template that can touch it before hitting another target (meaning you wont). Its not like the old burna bus where you can nuke out units at a time. Simple spacing shuts this trick down. Anything left can just soak up the overwatch while another unit charges without trouble, as a person who has a wraithguard army I can tell you wraithguard do not stay the course.

Not to mention the growing popularity of null deployment tactics. Sucks real bad when you drop your 400pt nuke on nothing.

 roflmajog wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You cant have 5 wraithguard + archon in a raider as that goes over capacity. You could do it with a Tantalus but now that's another 150pts into a bad tactic. The trick that works is joining a bike character to the units and make a "V" so you can actually fire them all. As mentioned its a gimmick tactic. It'll nuke out one thing and die in return. Plus bringing all the scythes to bear is no easy trick, especially since the flamers can only kill whats in range. Only hit 3 models with the whole squad? Great you can only kill those 3.

Its wasteful and easy to counter or bubble wrap against.

Not quite - if you only hit three models but you can position your templates in such a way that you can touch more models in that unit, then they die too.

Yeah, it only kills what the templates can touch. and against vehicles you must maximize the amount of the template that can touch it before hitting another target (meaning you wont). Its not like the old burna bus where you can nuke out units at a time. Simple spacing shuts this trick down. Anything left can just soak up the overwatch while another unit charges without trouble, as a person who has a wraithguard army I can tell you wraithguard do not stay the course.

Not to mention the growing popularity of null deployment tactics. Sucks real bad when you drop your 400pt nuke on nothing.

So then you target the bubble wrap and if you deployed properly you will at least clip the tank that is being bubble wrapped. Especially if they are too close to it. The positioning of the models when you deep strike can also affect what the ones at the back can shoot at use this to your advantage to aim where you want.
Also I may be wrong as I'm not familiar with the DE codex, but doesn't your nuke come in turn 2 meaning there will be at least one of your opponent's squads on the table even with a null deployment list.
Around where I play it is done as anything that could have been touched by the flamer can be killed (ie anything withing 8" of the firer) rather than only the models that are actually under it.
Also transports do help because otherwise you aren't anywhere near an optimal flaming formation when you deep strike.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Dman, your forgetting that they are in a transport so as I pointed out you have to kill that first, and with Jink the vehicle basically has a 4++ for all intents and purposes since there are exactly Zero weapons in my armory that have the strength required to kill the transport AND have ignores cover.

So if the transport shrugs off the average amount of damage that it should be able to deal with then thats 1 whole turn wasted trying to kill the transport with a bunch of WG inside it. After that the Wraithguard can die rather quickly to certain units, but those are the units you would normally use to kill the transport.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Dman, your forgetting that they are in a transport so as I pointed out you have to kill that first, and with Jink the vehicle basically has a 4++ for all intents and purposes since there are exactly Zero weapons in my armory that have the strength required to kill the transport AND have ignores cover.

So if the transport shrugs off the average amount of damage that it should be able to deal with then thats 1 whole turn wasted trying to kill the transport with a bunch of WG inside it. After that the Wraithguard can die rather quickly to certain units, but those are the units you would normally use to kill the transport.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Dman, your forgetting that they are in a transport so as I pointed out you have to kill that first, and with Jink the vehicle basically has a 4++ for all intents and purposes since there are exactly Zero weapons in my armory that have the strength required to kill the transport AND have ignores cover.

So if the transport shrugs off the average amount of damage that it should be able to deal with then thats 1 whole turn wasted trying to kill the transport with a bunch of WG inside it. After that the Wraithguard can die rather quickly to certain units, but those are the units you would normally use to kill the transport.

More likely a 3+ Jink. Most players I know pay the 15 pt "+1 Cover save" tax to make the Raiders even more survivable.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Dman, your forgetting that they are in a transport so as I pointed out you have to kill that first, and with Jink the vehicle basically has a 4++ for all intents and purposes since there are exactly Zero weapons in my armory that have the strength required to kill the transport AND have ignores cover.

So if the transport shrugs off the average amount of damage that it should be able to deal with then thats 1 whole turn wasted trying to kill the transport with a bunch of WG inside it. After that the Wraithguard can die rather quickly to certain units, but those are the units you would normally use to kill the transport.

More likely a 3+ Jink. Most players I know pay the 15 pt "+1 Cover save" tax to make the Raiders even more survivable.

Im not overly familiar with all the eldar/DE gear and upgrades but yeah I would definitely take that upgrade. So a 3+ jink save means that they survive 2/3rds of all shots that actually glance/pen them. So overall that strengthens what I am saying, and Dman please keep the insults out of your posts.

15 Lootas = 30 shots, 10 hits and at S7 that means your going to get about 6 pens/glances of which the 3+ jink wil ignore 4. So unless you get a lucky 6 and it explodes that AV10 transport can survive being targeted by one of the Orks best heavy support choices.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Dman, your forgetting that they are in a transport so as I pointed out you have to kill that first, and with Jink the vehicle basically has a 4++ for all intents and purposes since there are exactly Zero weapons in my armory that have the strength required to kill the transport AND have ignores cover.

So if the transport shrugs off the average amount of damage that it should be able to deal with then thats 1 whole turn wasted trying to kill the transport with a bunch of WG inside it. After that the Wraithguard can die rather quickly to certain units, but those are the units you would normally use to kill the transport.

you can't kill a AV 10 transport.?? You must be joking

 roflmajog wrote:
Happyjew it is 54 shots per hull point and how often do you fire anti infantry weapons at a tank? There should be some lootas or tankbustas around to pop it.
Also do you not have power klaws around to kill the wraithguard themselves with? Sure you lose about 10 boys to their attacks but it gets rid of them.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Happyjew it is 54 shots per hull point and how often do you fire anti infantry weapons at a tank? There should be some lootas or tankbustas around to pop it.
Also do you not have power klaws around to kill the wraithguard themselves with? Sure you lose about 10 boys to their attacks but it gets rid of them.

As I pointed out above, it takes a 15 man unit of Lootas to remove 2 HP from the transport, so it would take another unit of some sort to kill the last HP and get the Wraithguard out in the open. Then when dealing with the WG, Assaulting them tends to be dangerous...5 Flame templates = 10 auto S D hits meaning about 8 dead orks before they get into CC, I have no idea about how strong WG are in CC but they could probably still win in CC because they are T6 meaning my boyz (21 left alive in a 30 man unit with a Nob PK) have 84 attacks, 42 hits, and 7 wounds. (wounds on 6s S4 vs T6) they will make 5 saves so 2 die, my Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 wounds so now 1 WG alive.....of course this doesn't factor in the fact that WG get to attack first. So after poring 1 full unit of Lootas into the Wraith guard, using something else to finish off the WG's transport And then assaulting it with the remainders of a 30 man boyz squad they are STILL ALIVE. So You have effectively tied up most of my Heavy support and one of my troops choices with your WG for another turn, and this is of course AFTER they have DSed and blown up whatever is most expensive/vulnerable on my side of the table. I would say thats a great investment.

Also I think happyjew might have been correct, or at least closer to the truth. 30 Shoota boyz = 60 shots, 20 hits and about 3 glances which with a 3+ jink the Transport should statistically only lose 1 hull point.

 roflmajog wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Happyjew it is 54 shots per hull point and how often do you fire anti infantry weapons at a tank? There should be some lootas or tankbustas around to pop it.
Also do you not have power klaws around to kill the wraithguard themselves with? Sure you lose about 10 boys to their attacks but it gets rid of them.

As I pointed out above, it takes a 15 man unit of Lootas to remove 2 HP from the transport, so it would take another unit of some sort to kill the last HP and get the Wraithguard out in the open. Then when dealing with the WG, Assaulting them tends to be dangerous...5 Flame templates = 10 auto S D hits meaning about 8 dead orks before they get into CC, I have no idea about how strong WG are in CC but they could probably still win in CC because they are T6 meaning my boyz (21 left alive in a 30 man unit with a Nob PK) have 84 attacks, 42 hits, and 7 wounds. (wounds on 6s S4 vs T6) they will make 5 saves so 2 die, my Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 wounds so now 1 WG alive.....of course this doesn't factor in the fact that WG get to attack first. So after poring 1 full unit of Lootas into the Wraith guard, using something else to finish off the WG's transport And then assaulting it with the remainders of a 30 man boyz squad they are STILL ALIVE. So You have effectively tied up most of my Heavy support and one of my troops choices with your WG for another turn, and this is of course AFTER they have DSed and blown up whatever is most expensive/vulnerable on my side of the table. I would say thats a great investment.

Also I think happyjew might have been correct, or at least closer to the truth. 30 Shoota boyz = 60 shots, 20 hits and about 3 glances which with a 3+ jink the Transport should statistically only lose 1 hull point.

I was exactly correct with the maths, 54 shots, hit on 5s, 18 hit, glance on a 6, 3 glances, 3+ save, 1 goes through.

The lootas also have about a 30% chance of blowing the transport up too.
How about you use those last 30 sluggas to try and take off the last hull point they have a 50% chance at it.

The wraithguard will definitely not beat you in combat, 5 attacks hitting on 4s at S5 will kill about 2 boyz. Yes you will then be locked in combat afterwards, but that is a good thing you will lose about half a boy in the second round and wouldn't be shot at in your opponents turn. Your klaw then finishes the fight and you do whatever you want in your turn.

 Ghazkuul wrote:


Thats exactly what I was trying to say to do....in a round about way, the problem being though is that this scenario has a single 5 man WG unit and a single transport. To kill that transport and the WG inside of it, AFTER they have destroyed whatever they were after, you have used 1 HS Choice totaling 210pts, 1 Shoota Boyz Squad totaling 210pts (no nob PK/BP which would raise the price to 250) and a 2nd squad of Ork Boyz equipped with Slugga/choppa with a Nob PK/BP worth 220pts. So to kill that unit of WG and its transport I have to utilize 640pts of units, and during that I lose about 8-10 boyz from my Slugga/choppa squad so thats another 60pts for the WG.

If the WG are able to destroy something on my table edge such as my BW filled with Lootas (10-12 lootas) they will have killed around 300-400 pts of my army in a single turn, and then taken up my attention for a full turn and part of the next one. I think thats a pretty good investment because while all of this is going on we are COMPLETELY ignoring the rest of the Eldar Army which means that the SCAT Bikes, WK or whatever are eating my other units alive.

 roflmajog wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Spoiler:

 roflmajog wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Happyjew it is 54 shots per hull point and how often do you fire anti infantry weapons at a tank? There should be some lootas or tankbustas around to pop it.
Also do you not have power klaws around to kill the wraithguard themselves with? Sure you lose about 10 boys to their attacks but it gets rid of them.

As I pointed out above, it takes a 15 man unit of Lootas to remove 2 HP from the transport, so it would take another unit of some sort to kill the last HP and get the Wraithguard out in the open. Then when dealing with the WG, Assaulting them tends to be dangerous...5 Flame templates = 10 auto S D hits meaning about 8 dead orks before they get into CC, I have no idea about how strong WG are in CC but they could probably still win in CC because they are T6 meaning my boyz (21 left alive in a 30 man unit with a Nob PK) have 84 attacks, 42 hits, and 7 wounds. (wounds on 6s S4 vs T6) they will make 5 saves so 2 die, my Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 2 wounds so now 1 WG alive.....of course this doesn't factor in the fact that WG get to attack first. So after poring 1 full unit of Lootas into the Wraith guard, using something else to finish off the WG's transport And then assaulting it with the remainders of a 30 man boyz squad they are STILL ALIVE. So You have effectively tied up most of my Heavy support and one of my troops choices with your WG for another turn, and this is of course AFTER they have DSed and blown up whatever is most expensive/vulnerable on my side of the table. I would say thats a great investment.

Also I think happyjew might have been correct, or at least closer to the truth. 30 Shoota boyz = 60 shots, 20 hits and about 3 glances which with a 3+ jink the Transport should statistically only lose 1 hull point.

I was exactly correct with the maths, 54 shots, hit on 5s, 18 hit, glance on a 6, 3 glances, 3+ save, 1 goes through.

The lootas also have about a 30% chance of blowing the transport up too.
How about you use those last 30 sluggas to try and take off the last hull point they have a 50% chance at it.

The wraithguard will definitely not beat you in combat, 5 attacks hitting on 4s at S5 will kill about 2 boyz. Yes you will then be locked in combat afterwards, but that is a good thing you will lose about half a boy in the second round and wouldn't be shot at in your opponents turn. Your klaw then finishes the fight and you do whatever you want in your turn.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say to do....in a round about way, the problem being though is that this scenario has a single 5 man WG unit and a single transport. To kill that transport and the WG inside of it, AFTER they have destroyed whatever they were after, you have used 1 HS Choice totaling 210pts, 1 Shoota Boyz Squad totaling 210pts (no nob PK/BP which would raise the price to 250) and a 2nd squad of Ork Boyz equipped with Slugga/choppa with a Nob PK/BP worth 220pts. So to kill that unit of WG and its transport I have to utilize 640pts of units, and during that I lose about 8-10 boyz from my Slugga/choppa squad so thats another 60pts for the WG.

If the WG are able to destroy something on my table edge such as my BW filled with Lootas (10-12 lootas) they will have killed around 300-400 pts of my army in a single turn, and then taken up my attention for a full turn and part of the next one. I think thats a pretty good investment because while all of this is going on we are COMPLETELY ignoring the rest of the Eldar Army which means that the SCAT Bikes, WK or whatever are eating my other units alive.

Maybe once you see they have deep striking D scythes you decide not to deploy lootas in the BW and put them in cover somewhere else? And I don't know where the shoota boy squad came from I said use the sluggas from the squad that is charging.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Because to pop the transport you would need those shoota boyz finishing the transport off, and since they shot a transport they can't assault the guys inside. so you would need a 2nd Mob of boyz to assault them.

And If I put the lootaz in cover they die to ignores cover weapons or get shot to death by SCATs. Either way its not good, and bubble wrapping against flamers doesn't work that well.

 clamclaw wrote:
Why is this thread now about Ork complaints on killing vehicles?

But yeah, WWP is a fun little trick but thats about it. Very expensive way to kill a single target and get blown off the board after. No invuln saves and shoddy 3+ armor wont see them survive very long after DS.

 Jimsolo wrote:
There's no reason to even get the Archon involved. The Open Topped, Deep Striking Raider carries a bit of risk if you choose to DS it, but it still dramatically increases both the survivability and killing power of the Wraithguard.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
There's no reason to even get the Archon involved. The Open Topped, Deep Striking Raider carries a bit of risk if you choose to DS it, but it still dramatically increases both the survivability and killing power of the Wraithguard.

The only trick you can do is plow them at the enemy and jink, as the squad inside is not effected. But still its 1 raider full of death, so it not getting targeted and subsequently wrecked is slim.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I found that the scariest one to be dropped with a WWP is the stock ones, because the extra range means they can do more once everyone tries to run away after the initial drop. With a Raider though, I'd be all over Scythes.