<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes What box is the best overall (ignoring the price)?
And just post you're opinions on all of them
Thanks
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361105.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
Looking at the section of "Start collecting Warhammer 40,000" we see these cool box sets and then you see the redheaded step children that are Orks, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Harequins sitting their with expensive "bundles" with some rather questionable model choices. I feel sorry for the pool misguided soul that buys that Ork "bundle" and finds out that the expensive Mek model is a 15 point challenge fodder or mek gun baby sitter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361150.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8361153.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362553.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 jreilly89 wrote:
Given that the formation bonuses are out, I'm probably gonna pick up the Skitarii box soon.


Where are the formations?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362572.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes 40k or WFB player. I do like GW's models for other games though.

Definitely picking up the Skitarii one - at discount, I buy an Onager, get a free Dominus and have a free box of Skitarii to trade, sell or add to the bitz box. And that kit is an amazing source of bits, some of the best models GW has ever made IMHO. So all in all not just a good saving but a bargain.

Alternatively, I have a box of Frostgrave plastics sitting around, and that box of Skitarii could be re-purposed to 20 techno-scavengers or thralls very easily.

Been tempted by a Nurgle force for a while now but the prices always put me off . That plan is now looking like a real possibility... come to think of it, two boxes wouldn't go amiss, and I could see a plague drone or three being a converted to a futuristic blight drone. Maybe clear the plastic mountain a little first, eh?

That's the great thing about these sets - I would never spend £41 on a Blight Drone from Forgeworld or £23 on bits, but I'm already planning what to do with all those goodies.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362682.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Frozocrone wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
Given that the formation bonuses are out, I'm probably gonna pick up the Skitarii box soon.


Where are the formations?


This post in the Rumors board:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/675096.page#8360470]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362747.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Vankraken wrote:
Tau has the best discount by far. In terms of usefulness its hard to say. Tau, Necrons, and Skitarii are all full of useful units but every one of the starter boxes can be of some use. Space Marines and Nids probably are the least effective as Dreads and Warriors aren't used all that often in competitive lists. Personally I have a Preorder in place to an online seller for the Tau box set. $63 US + shipping for all that is quite the deal.

Looking at the section of "Start collecting Warhammer 40,000" we see these cool box sets and then you see the redheaded step children that are Orks, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Harequins sitting their with expensive "bundles" with some rather questionable model choices. I feel sorry for the pool misguided soul that buys that Ork "bundle" and finds out that the expensive Mek model is a 15 point challenge fodder or mek gun baby sitter.



Started this exact thought process when I read the thread title, glad somebody has articulated it so well. I spent the last of my spending money on two of the tau boxes. I mean, that is practically the cost of the 3 crisis suits, getting a free 10-man fire warrior squad and an ethereal for free is a great deal. All of the models are extremely useful, though I plan to sell both ethereals some time in the future since I play FE (unless somebody tells me I shouldnt for some reason, it may be nice to have the option in the future...).

Anyway, like Vankraken said, Tau has a great deal, them as well as necrons and skitarii are good, stay away from Smarines and especially the expensive book bundles unless you have a good reason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362774.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes HQ as well, so it's definitely one of the "Must have" models too.

The Tau one (which is the only one that can come anywhere close to competing with it) has 2 useful units, but not everyone will want an Ethereal, let alone a surplus of them. The Dominus, at least, is featured in a bunch of useful formations so having an extra one on the cheap is never a waste. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362821.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362852.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 jasper76 wrote:
Don't like the idea of "Getting started" meaning "buy this formation", although I do like that these boxes apparently will come with datasheets so that new players don't have to buy the whole codex if they don't want to.

Truthfully, I feel that Formations are the best way to introduce someone into the game. Formations have a lot more variety in them while also having a bit more of a rigid structure than a CAD.

The boxes also contain a decent cross-section of unit types. For example, they all seem to come with for the 40k sets:
-A vehicle(Leman Russ, Onager, Necron Spider-Death-Walker that I can never remember the name of and Dreadnought), monstrous creature(Hive Tyrant), or other form of "unique" infantry unit(Crisis Suit being Jet Pack Infantry for the Tau) that has some kind of special rules
-An Independent Character
-An Infantry Unit

It lets someone learn some of the different ways these units work and gives them a feel for how the army as a whole might play without needing to invest too heavily.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362876.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362989.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 jasper76 wrote:
Don't like the idea of "Getting started" meaning "buy this formation", although I do like that these boxes apparently will come with datasheets so that new players don't have to buy the whole codex if they don't want to.


[DAKKA DAKKA in NO WAY condones such activities - DO NOT advocate for piracy on this site - Alpharius]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8362994.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 CrownAxe wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.

It specifies "one Venerable Dreadnought", same as the Onager and Leman Russ specify "one".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363092.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kanluwen wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.

It specifies "one Venerable Dreadnought", same as the Onager and Leman Russ specify "one".


Venerables can be rifleman and have better BS to boot]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363097.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363100.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
the imperial guard have a rock solid box on there hands, good foundation formation right there.

necrons formation is either going to be silly overpowered or very underwhelming we will again need to look at their formation restrictions. logic tells me its going to be the former over the later because gw wants to sell models and to feth with writing rules fairly and selling models honestly

skitarii have an interesting formation but it needs to survive until mid and late game, by that point it will be useful, its getting there thats the challenge. could be a good walk on formation to come on the table from the edge as a reserve

the tau box is pretty mediocre i probably wouldnt bother which is a fresh change of pace from the bonkers nonsense they got a few weeks ago. maybe we could see them discontinue farsight enclave as well, that would be solid

the nids got a fun box, its not a very good box though, the big thing it offers you is the ability to fix a bad deployment in a limited capacity. so i think situationally a good box]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363666.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes imo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363797.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363823.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363899.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Carnikang wrote:
Is it just me, or did they get bumped up to 100 dollars? Weren't they 85? [/quote

They're still $85 for me]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363915.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Carnikang wrote:
Is it just me, or did they get bumped up to 100 dollars? Weren't they 85?


Welcome to Canada. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8363925.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kanluwen wrote:
 jasper76 wrote:
Don't like the idea of "Getting started" meaning "buy this formation", although I do like that these boxes apparently will come with datasheets so that new players don't have to buy the whole codex if they don't want to.

Truthfully, I feel that Formations are the best way to introduce someone into the game. Formations have a lot more variety in them while also having a bit more of a rigid structure than a CAD.

The boxes also contain a decent cross-section of unit types. For example, they all seem to come with for the 40k sets:
-A vehicle(Leman Russ, Onager, Necron Spider-Death-Walker that I can never remember the name of and Dreadnought), monstrous creature(Hive Tyrant), or other form of "unique" infantry unit(Crisis Suit being Jet Pack Infantry for the Tau) that has some kind of special rules
-An Independent Character
-An Infantry Unit

It lets someone learn some of the different ways these units work and gives them a feel for how the army as a whole might play without needing to invest too heavily.

There is some pattern behind. I agree that these formations are made for starters in the first place.
But some formations, like Tau or Skitarii, are also nice add-ons.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364136.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes 40k side are *terrible* (I didn't really pay attention to the Fantasy models).

I'm looking forward to more Start Collecting boxes!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
Is it just me, or did they get bumped up to 100 dollars? Weren't they 85?


Welcome to Canada.


Since the Canadian dollar is currently sitting at around $0.71 USD, it's actually a deal. It's basically, well, $71


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364203.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364378.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Im planning to buy the marine one as a start to my imperial fists army
Imperial Fists are one of the Chapters that benefit most from that formations bonus. It is too bad that the Terminator Captain is a requirement, rather than any captain.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364416.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364431.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Talys wrote:
In terms of the boxes, some boxes are just plain better than the others. But I don't think any of them on the 40k side are *terrible* (I didn't really pay attention to the Fantasy models).

I'm looking forward to more Start Collecting boxes!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
Is it just me, or did they get bumped up to 100 dollars? Weren't they 85?


Welcome to Canada.


Since the Canadian dollar is currently sitting at around $0.71 USD, it's actually a deal. It's basically, well, $71




This sad truth makes me weep a bit considering travelling abroad now is much less lucrative than it use to be. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364885.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
I am actually surprised at GW releasing things that are actually a value. Le gasp!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364891.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 krodarklorr wrote:
Can't wait for the Eldar one. I might end up getting multiple to start my collection.

I am actually surprised at GW releasing things that are actually a value. Le gasp!
There's an Eldar one?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364927.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Can't wait for the Eldar one. I might end up getting multiple to start my collection.

I am actually surprised at GW releasing things that are actually a value. Le gasp!
There's an Eldar one?


Eventually. Four are up for preorder, and we can only assume more will come next week. It would appear they're doing one for every army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364929.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes GW pushing that model when its such a horribly overpriced and useless piece of plastic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8364959.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 krodarklorr wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Can't wait for the Eldar one. I might end up getting multiple to start my collection.

I am actually surprised at GW releasing things that are actually a value. Le gasp!
There's an Eldar one?


Eventually. Four are up for preorder, and we can only assume more will come next week. It would appear they're doing one for every army.
Hopefully there is an Ork one and a Space Wolf one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365141.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes GW wouldn't at least consider the Eldar (unlike CSM, they're actually doing well due to the op-ness of some of it's builds). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365147.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365301.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think the problem with with eldar is so many of there units are finecast.


Thats the price you pay for being cheesy ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365303.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think the problem with with eldar is so many of there units are finecast.


Thats the price you pay for being cheesy


Wraithknight and Jetbikes say hi

Actually, I'd say playing non-cheese eldar would be paying the price, since no one ever whines about aspect warriors (well, at least outside of Dire Avengers). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365314.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think the problem with with eldar is so many of there units are finecast.


Thats the price you pay for being cheesy


Wraithknight and Jetbikes say hi

Actually, I'd say playing non-cheese eldar would be paying the price, since no one ever whines about aspect warriors (well, at least outside of Dire Avengers).


I have never played Eldar so I don't really know how cheesy they are, but From what I've read from their codex, they aren't that bad if you take out scat bikes and wraithknights]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365319.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365336.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hopefully there is an Ork one and a Space Wolf one.


There is an ork one but it's for aos. So, i doubt there's gona be a 40k one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365390.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
Good move from GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365394.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365433.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
I just wish they would finish the full Codex cycle before making up yet another way to build armies this time around.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365439.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes GW rep. GW is very much aware that their last round of price increases scared off almost all of the "Whale" players propping up their sales, so they're trying to attract new players. AoS was the first attempt at this.

Whether or not this is done with good intentions, it is a step in the right direction, as a 200 dollar investment between two people can get you a decent board game for those friday nights at home, while old vets can utilize them to add to their collections as well. The pricepoint also fits the Stormclaw and Deathstorm "starter sets", being just slightly more expensive than them but having roughly the same amount of content (roughly, Deathstorm and Stormclaw had much better value with more units, but hey we'll take our victories where we get em). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365473.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes AOS demon ones for my 30k demon army !]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365520.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365907.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes GW, make a Starter Set for Imperial Knights. Have it cost the same as the other Starter Sets. Thanks!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8365910.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dear GW, make a Starter Set for Imperial Knights. Have it cost the same as the other Starter Sets. Thanks!


Make it cost twice as much, but contain 3 knights. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8366318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8366318.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dear GW, make a Starter Set for Imperial Knights. Have it cost the same as the other Starter Sets. Thanks!


Make it cost twice as much, but contain 3 knights.


Bruv, stop trying to murder my wallet. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367045.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kanluwen wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.

It specifies "one Venerable Dreadnought", same as the Onager and Leman Russ specify "one".


This argument comes up a lot with the Necron Canoptek Harvest Formation. Argument goes like this...

1. Per the core rules, Formations contain a list of required UNITs (not models).
2. One Venerable Dreadnought UNIT can be composed of between 1-3 Venerable Dreadnought MODELs.
3. Ergo, a single UNIT of 3 MODELs fulfills the requirement to take 1 Venerable Dreadnought (UNIT).

The counterargument goes like this...

1. Dude, we all know what GW meant. They just suck at writing rules. One Dread means one Dread. There is an unwritten implication that they're talking about a model and not a unit.

Then people fight back and forth for 20 pages and the thread gets locked with the begrudging consensus that RaW allows 1 UNIT of multiple MODELs but that you'll never find anyone willing to play it that way.

TL: DR; RaW probably allows a unit of three Dreads, but RaI is most likely a single Dread. Most people play the second option.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367151.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
ziggurattt wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Dear GW, make a Starter Set for Imperial Knights. Have it cost the same as the other Starter Sets. Thanks!


Make it cost twice as much, but contain 3 knights.


Bruv, stop trying to murder my wallet.


Even if it costs 3 times as much as the other starter sets, 3 knights in a box would sell out faster than The End Times: Khaine did. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367155.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kriswall wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.

It specifies "one Venerable Dreadnought", same as the Onager and Leman Russ specify "one".


This argument comes up a lot with the Necron Canoptek Harvest Formation. Argument goes like this...

1. Per the core rules, Formations contain a list of required UNITs (not models).
2. One Venerable Dreadnought UNIT can be composed of between 1-3 Venerable Dreadnought MODELs.
3. Ergo, a single UNIT of 3 MODELs fulfills the requirement to take 1 Venerable Dreadnought (UNIT).

The counterargument goes like this...

1. Dude, we all know what GW meant. They just suck at writing rules. One Dread means one Dread. There is an unwritten implication that they're talking about a model and not a unit.

Then people fight back and forth for 20 pages and the thread gets locked with the begrudging consensus that RaW allows 1 UNIT of multiple MODELs but that you'll never find anyone willing to play it that way.

TL: DR; RaW probably allows a unit of three Dreads, but RaI is most likely a single Dread. Most people play the second option.

No, unfortunately there is no RaW v. RaI argument. There's people trying to abuse it and not being able to read, like your Canoptek Harvest example.

These clearly specify a single Dreadnought, Onager, etc. If they wanted it to be more than that--it would say "1 unit of".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367207.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Ironic that the marine one is probably the worst in both value and on the table top. The terminator captain is probably the worst unit out of all the 85 dollar ones.

Honestly outside of playing with just the box set the marine formation is probably the best because you can take a full squadron of 3 riflemen dreadnaughts and make them shoot twice and you don't have to make the captain a terminator.

It specifies "one Venerable Dreadnought", same as the Onager and Leman Russ specify "one".


This argument comes up a lot with the Necron Canoptek Harvest Formation. Argument goes like this...

1. Per the core rules, Formations contain a list of required UNITs (not models).
2. One Venerable Dreadnought UNIT can be composed of between 1-3 Venerable Dreadnought MODELs.
3. Ergo, a single UNIT of 3 MODELs fulfills the requirement to take 1 Venerable Dreadnought (UNIT).

The counterargument goes like this...

1. Dude, we all know what GW meant. They just suck at writing rules. One Dread means one Dread. There is an unwritten implication that they're talking about a model and not a unit.

Then people fight back and forth for 20 pages and the thread gets locked with the begrudging consensus that RaW allows 1 UNIT of multiple MODELs but that you'll never find anyone willing to play it that way.

TL: DR; RaW probably allows a unit of three Dreads, but RaI is most likely a single Dread. Most people play the second option.

No, unfortunately there is no RaW v. RaI argument. There's people trying to abuse it and not being able to read, like your Canoptek Harvest example.

These clearly specify a single Dreadnought, Onager, etc. If they wanted it to be more than that--it would say "1 unit of".


I know this isn't YMDC, but the argument is that "unit of" isn't necessary because it's already defined as a list of required units... not models. 1 Venerable Dreadnought, would therefore be 1 unit with the name Venerable Dreadnought. Is there a unit with the name Venerable Dreadnought? Nope. There is one with the name Venerable DreadnoughtS. Slight difference, but names are powerful things. So, we're left with an issue. RaW breaks down since the required unit name doesn't exist as an option. Did the author make a typo and leave off the "s", or did he not understand that the list is a units list and decide to put a model down instead? House rule territory at this point. Most people house rule it as a model listed in the units list. House ruling it as a unit in the units list with a minor type is also perfectly valid.

Side note... I play it as a model, but can easily see the argument for it being a unit. You know, since it's on a unit list. I don't think the GW rules authors always really understand the difference between units and models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367237.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 Kriswall wrote:

I know this isn't YMDC, but the argument is that "unit of" isn't necessary because it's already defined as a list of required units... not models.

That's a stupid argument and anyone who makes that argument should be ignored and/or roundly mocked.

1 Venerable Dreadnought, would therefore be 1 unit with the name Venerable Dreadnought. Is there a unit with the name Venerable Dreadnought? Nope. There is one with the name Venerable DreadnoughtS. Slight difference, but names are powerful things. So, we're left with an issue. RaW breaks down since the required unit name doesn't exist as an option. Did the author make a typo and leave off the "s", or did he not understand that the list is a units list and decide to put a model down instead? House rule territory at this point. Most people house rule it as a model listed in the units list. House ruling it as a unit in the units list with a minor type is also perfectly valid.

Unit Composition:
1 Venerable Dreadnought

Their entire argument falls apart right then and there, because in all of the instances it is a "unit composition" of a singular rather than plural.

Additionally it falls apart because anywhere that they allow for you to take a "unit of" with variable sizes, they state "unit of X".

Side note... I play it as a model, but can easily see the argument for it being a unit. You know, since it's on a unit list. I don't think the GW rules authors always really understand the difference between units and models.

I think the GW rules authors expect people to be able to read something as simple as the unit compositions and understand that "1" means "1".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367253.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes atm, so apologies if there is something stating a difference that I just didn't know about).

However in examples like the Canoptek Harvest, it's a bit more clearer that the intent is to take 1 spyder and that's it, as the other two lists "a unit" instead of "3 Canoptek Wraiths". The writer there clearly wanted to note the difference, even if it's not anything directly supported by the rules (it would have been so much easier for him to just copy-paste "A unit of Canoptek" over and over again and just fill out the end with "Spyder", "Wraith" or "Scarab").

Personally, I would just take one and be done with it. If the rule is ambiguous, then the gentlemanly thing is to take it on the chin and not push it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367277.page GMT Re:Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367304.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The problem with such an argument is that even going by the wording of "one dreadnought", adding additional Dreadnoughts is technically an upgrade a Dreadnought can take now (there's no actual rule distinction for adding wargear or adding models to a unit as far as I'm aware of), so if you really wanted to mince words, technically you're taking one dreadnought who has 2 dreadnoughts as "wargear".
Unit composition is "One Venerable Dreadnought" with the option to expand the unit to include more. Once you do that though, you are going to have to start following the rules for Vehicle Squadrons and Unit Coherency.

Otherwise technically you can't bring dedicated Transports to formations unless states so either, since what's the difference between buying a transport and buying extra models? (Note I'm going off of memory of the rulebook, don't have it at work with me atm, so apologies if there is something stating a difference that I just didn't know about).

Formations describe the units that compose them, occasionally with restrictions listed under the "Restrictions" heading and occasionally they are just placed into the list of things to begin with.

For example, the Skitarii Battle Maniple mandates for you to take "a unit of Onager Dunecrawlers" while the Cohort Mechanicus(that big bundle) mandates that you take "2 Onager Dunecrawlers".
An Onager Dunecrawler is a single Onager Dunecrawler.

However in examples like the Canoptek Harvest, it's a bit more clearer that the intent is to take 1 spyder and that's it, as the other two lists "a unit" instead of "3 Canoptek Wraiths". The writer there clearly wanted to note the difference, even if it's not anything directly supported by the rules (it would have been so much easier for him to just copy-paste "A unit of Canoptek" over and over again and just fill out the end with "Spyder", "Wraith" or "Scarab").

Personally, I would just take one and be done with it. If the rule is ambiguous, then the gentlemanly thing is to take it on the chin and not push it.

Counting isn't ambiguous. "One" doesn't become "two" without another "one" being involved.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367309.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes GW authors included. That's cool. This game requires a certain amount of common sense interpretation.

GW very likely put down a model on a list of units. That's just shoddy and inconsistent writing. The core rules give us no mechanism to include models in the required units list for a Formation, yet GW is pretty clearly doing just that.

What they really SHOULD be doing to stay consistent with the rules for Formations is to require...

"1 unit of Venerable Dreadnoughts consisting of a single Venerable Dreadnought"

This looks silly on paper, so they shorten it to "1 Venerable Dreadnought". Looks better, but it's bad writing because now you've listed a model on your units list.

From a rules perspective, "1 unit of Venerable Dreadnoughts consisting of a single Venerable Dreadnought" and "1 Venerable Dreadnought" are not interchangeable. One is a UNIT and the other is a MODEL.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367343.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367354.page GMT Opinions on the new "Start Collecting" boxes
We all know that there is a way for someone to legitimately argue that you can take 3 Dreads if they decide to use word limboing. But in the name of good sportsmanship, we should just do it as it's read: 1 Dreadnought. No more no less. If you need some cheese, the Eldar and Tau has more than enough legitimate cheese to go through that doesn't require 3 hours of linguistic debate. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/675442/8367365.page GMT