the_scotsman wrote:
Eh?

I've never hated him. Used to play him with my Guard, he has done some work in the past. Generally I end up just using either the 2+ poison shot or preferably the S10 version vs a vehicle. I've had him pop a land raider before, that was definitely the highlight of his life. He can be handy for smacking down heavy weapons from squads and the like. Just never, ever use the D3 wounds version of his gun, it's just not worth the 50/50 wound chance.

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem is the Vindicare is an expensive sniper and despite the load of special rules and benefits it gets it has a relatively low chance per round of shooting to actually eliminate a high value target. So against an IC in a unit of fodder surrounding it (99% what you see with an IC) it comes down to this (we will assume every shot hits because its easier math and its unlikely to miss).
This target has no Inv save so it comes down to firing either the 2+ wounding or the D3 wounds ammo.
A) Firing the 2+ wounding shot will wound 83% of the time and then they roll an LoS on a 4+ (-2 to LOS rolls) so 50% of the time the wound goes to a grunt. So that's 41% chance to put 1 wound onto the target that shooting phase and that is not including any FNP saves. So that's .41 wounds per turn of shooting on the target you want.
b) Your going for blood and rolling with D3 wounds. 50% chance to wound and 50% that wound goes to a grunt instead which is 25% chance to put any damage on the target and on average your dealing 2 wounds when it works. That is .5 wounds per turn of shooting to the target you want. (again assuming no FNP).
c) there is a invuln save so those failed LoSs in A and B are probably saving 33 to 66% of those wounds so instead your firing the shield breaker rounds. Its the same math as b) except its only 1 wound so its .25 wounds per turn of shooting on the intended target.

Basically he is bad at killing high value HQs and if you want volume of wounds or to pick off special weapon guys then take cheap things like scout snipers, kroot, rattlings, guard command squads with snipers, etc and throw volume of shots at the target.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Title says it all, how do they stack up for their point cost?

150 pts, for a pretty much one shot anything on the field. Looking to throw one into my list of ravenwing deathwing because it was a really easy way to go from 1850 to 2k.

Dakkas thoughts on this?

Note, I know ravenwing Deathwing Split is not the best, i run it for mostly fluffy reasons.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem is the Vindicare is an expensive sniper and despite the load of special rules and benefits it gets it has a relatively low chance per round of shooting to actually eliminate a high value target. So against an IC in a unit of fodder surrounding it (99% what you see with an IC) it comes down to this (we will assume every shot hits because its easier math and its unlikely to miss).
This target has no Inv save so it comes down to firing either the 2+ wounding or the D3 wounds ammo.
A) Firing the 2+ wounding shot will wound 83% of the time and then they roll an LoS on a 4+ (-2 to LOS rolls) so 50% of the time the wound goes to a grunt. So that's 41% chance to put 1 wound onto the target that shooting phase and that is not including any FNP saves. So that's .41 wounds per turn of shooting on the target you want.
b) Your going for blood and rolling with D3 wounds. 50% chance to wound and 50% that wound goes to a grunt instead which is 25% chance to put any damage on the target and on average your dealing 2 wounds when it works. That is .5 wounds per turn of shooting to the target you want. (again assuming no FNP).
c) there is a invuln save so those failed LoSs in A and B are probably saving 33 to 66% of those wounds so instead your firing the shield breaker rounds. Its the same math as b) except its only 1 wound so its .25 wounds per turn of shooting on the intended target.

Basically he is bad at killing high value HQs and if you want volume of wounds or to pick off special weapon guys then take cheap things like scout snipers, kroot, rattlings, guard command squads with snipers, etc and throw volume of shots at the target.

This is why I almost never use him against high value HQs. He's usually firing at either expensive vehicles, or high value characters (not ICs)/special equipment guys who get no look out sir. In my last game, I had him immobilize a Darkshroud, then take out 2 ravenwing black knights, one with some special kind of gun and another with a banner, before the enemy got to him and killed him. If I'd wasted my 3 shots trying to damage Sammael, he would have been totally wasted.

This is the problem with the Vindicare that makes him seem below-average instead of average: EVERYONE uses him wrong, and goes for the long-odds greedy kills.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So if anything he sounds like a gamble.

High risk, high reward sort of deal.

Once thing, though, i want to see if everyone is in agreement on, he is pretty good at popping pesky vehicles no?

Audustum wrote:
He's a lot more reliable if you use fortifications.

As exanples, give him a Macro Cannon and bam, ignores cover apocalyptic blasts. Give him an Icarrus anything and you're sniping fliers at BS 8 and ignoring Jink saves to boot, I believe.

Seriously, give him a major fortification gun, even a lascannon and watch it turn into an Ignores Cover monster. That seems to be one of the best uses for him.

 Vankraken wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's a lot more reliable if you use fortifications.

As exanples, give him a Macro Cannon and bam, ignores cover apocalyptic blasts. Give him an Icarrus anything and you're sniping fliers at BS 8 and ignoring Jink saves to boot, I believe.

Seriously, give him a major fortification gun, even a lascannon and watch it turn into an Ignores Cover monster. That seems to be one of the best uses for him.

His Ignore Cover wargear only works with attacks that roll to hit (so no blast weapons).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So if anything he sounds like a gamble.

High risk, high reward sort of deal.

Once thing, though, i want to see if everyone is in agreement on, he is pretty good at popping pesky vehicles no? Running a Deathwing Ravenwing, vehicles are rather troublesome for me to take care of.

 Selym wrote:
Well those are their intended targets. The assassins control governments through fear. Taking out external threats are probably very rare.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Well those are their intended targets. The assassins control governments through fear. Taking out external threats are probably very rare.

Lol

This is the problem with the Vindicare that makes him seem below-average instead of average: EVERYONE uses him wrong, and goes for the long-odds greedy kills.