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Title says it all, how do they stack up for their point cost?

150 pts, for a pretty much one shot anything on the field. Looking to throw one into my list of ravenwing deathwing because it was a really easy way to go from 1850 to 2k.

Dakkas thoughts on this?

Note, I know ravenwing Deathwing Split is not the best, i run it for mostly fluffy reasons.

I don't personally use one but I've fought against them.

Whilst I know this is anecdotal - I've played against them 3 times now, haven't killed any... but they've never killed their points back.

With a proper board layout with LOS- blocking terrain, the Vindicaire's primary advantage (Range) can be mitigated by your opponent. So generally you'll be shooting at sub-optimal targets and even then you're not guaranteed to kill it.

Tbh, I don't rate the Vindicaire very highly and don't believe it's worth its points.YMMV.

Eh?

I've never hated him. Used to play him with my Guard, he has done some work in the past. Generally I end up just using either the 2+ poison shot or preferably the S10 version vs a vehicle. I've had him pop a land raider before, that was definitely the highlight of his life. He can be handy for smacking down heavy weapons from squads and the like. Just never, ever use the D3 wounds version of his gun, it's just not worth the 50/50 wound chance.

the_scotsman wrote:
Eh?

I've never hated him. Used to play him with my Guard, he has done some work in the past. Generally I end up just using either the 2+ poison shot or preferably the S10 version vs a vehicle. I've had him pop a land raider before, that was definitely the highlight of his life. He can be handy for smacking down heavy weapons from squads and the like. Just never, ever use the D3 wounds version of his gun, it's just not worth the 50/50 wound chance.

What im seeing so far is he falls into that weird middle ground of, he is not bad, but he is not good, or really its up to the dice if he is worth it.

From what i take away is using his S10 on vehicles, the 2+ wound on most anything, and the no invul saves in special cases.

No invuln saves is only worth it if the enemy has a 3++ or better, and if there's really no other target you could use the S10 shot on or something. Basically, a near-sure thing to remove a pesky model holding a buff banner or a heavy weapon is way better than a chance at getting a wound on some beefy IC.

The problem is the Vindicare is an expensive sniper and despite the load of special rules and benefits it gets it has a relatively low chance per round of shooting to actually eliminate a high value target. So against an IC in a unit of fodder surrounding it (99% what you see with an IC) it comes down to this (we will assume every shot hits because its easier math and its unlikely to miss).
This target has no Inv save so it comes down to firing either the 2+ wounding or the D3 wounds ammo.
A) Firing the 2+ wounding shot will wound 83% of the time and then they roll an LoS on a 4+ (-2 to LOS rolls) so 50% of the time the wound goes to a grunt. So that's 41% chance to put 1 wound onto the target that shooting phase and that is not including any FNP saves. So that's .41 wounds per turn of shooting on the target you want.
b) Your going for blood and rolling with D3 wounds. 50% chance to wound and 50% that wound goes to a grunt instead which is 25% chance to put any damage on the target and on average your dealing 2 wounds when it works. That is .5 wounds per turn of shooting to the target you want. (again assuming no FNP).
c) there is a invuln save so those failed LoSs in A and B are probably saving 33 to 66% of those wounds so instead your firing the shield breaker rounds. Its the same math as b) except its only 1 wound so its .25 wounds per turn of shooting on the intended target.

Basically he is bad at killing high value HQs and if you want volume of wounds or to pick off special weapon guys then take cheap things like scout snipers, kroot, rattlings, guard command squads with snipers, etc and throw volume of shots at the target.

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem is the Vindicare is an expensive sniper and despite the load of special rules and benefits it gets it has a relatively low chance per round of shooting to actually eliminate a high value target. So against an IC in a unit of fodder surrounding it (99% what you see with an IC) it comes down to this (we will assume every shot hits because its easier math and its unlikely to miss).
This target has no Inv save so it comes down to firing either the 2+ wounding or the D3 wounds ammo.
A) Firing the 2+ wounding shot will wound 83% of the time and then they roll an LoS on a 4+ (-2 to LOS rolls) so 50% of the time the wound goes to a grunt. So that's 41% chance to put 1 wound onto the target that shooting phase and that is not including any FNP saves. So that's .41 wounds per turn of shooting on the target you want.
b) Your going for blood and rolling with D3 wounds. 50% chance to wound and 50% that wound goes to a grunt instead which is 25% chance to put any damage on the target and on average your dealing 2 wounds when it works. That is .5 wounds per turn of shooting to the target you want. (again assuming no FNP).
c) there is a invuln save so those failed LoSs in A and B are probably saving 33 to 66% of those wounds so instead your firing the shield breaker rounds. Its the same math as b) except its only 1 wound so its .25 wounds per turn of shooting on the intended target.

Basically he is bad at killing high value HQs and if you want volume of wounds or to pick off special weapon guys then take cheap things like scout snipers, kroot, rattlings, guard command squads with snipers, etc and throw volume of shots at the target.

This is why I almost never use him against high value HQs. He's usually firing at either expensive vehicles, or high value characters (not ICs)/special equipment guys who get no look out sir. In my last game, I had him immobilize a Darkshroud, then take out 2 ravenwing black knights, one with some special kind of gun and another with a banner, before the enemy got to him and killed him. If I'd wasted my 3 shots trying to damage Sammael, he would have been totally wasted.

This is the problem with the Vindicare that makes him seem below-average instead of average: EVERYONE uses him wrong, and goes for the long-odds greedy kills.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Title says it all, how do they stack up for their point cost?

150 pts, for a pretty much one shot anything on the field. Looking to throw one into my list of ravenwing deathwing because it was a really easy way to go from 1850 to 2k.

Dakkas thoughts on this?

Note, I know ravenwing Deathwing Split is not the best, i run it for mostly fluffy reasons.

They are pretty poor at their jobs.

I don't have my notes on me, but that 0.9166 chance to hit degrades pretty fast.

Against a SM Captain, it's going to take you *literally* all game of shooting to kill him. The "D3 wounds" shot type has, against a 4++, a 7.5% chance of scoring 3 wounds. And a 0.22~ chance of doing anything at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about it, he's probably pretty good against DeathWatch marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
The problem is the Vindicare is an expensive sniper and despite the load of special rules and benefits it gets it has a relatively low chance per round of shooting to actually eliminate a high value target. So against an IC in a unit of fodder surrounding it (99% what you see with an IC) it comes down to this (we will assume every shot hits because its easier math and its unlikely to miss).
This target has no Inv save so it comes down to firing either the 2+ wounding or the D3 wounds ammo.
A) Firing the 2+ wounding shot will wound 83% of the time and then they roll an LoS on a 4+ (-2 to LOS rolls) so 50% of the time the wound goes to a grunt. So that's 41% chance to put 1 wound onto the target that shooting phase and that is not including any FNP saves. So that's .41 wounds per turn of shooting on the target you want.
b) Your going for blood and rolling with D3 wounds. 50% chance to wound and 50% that wound goes to a grunt instead which is 25% chance to put any damage on the target and on average your dealing 2 wounds when it works. That is .5 wounds per turn of shooting to the target you want. (again assuming no FNP).
c) there is a invuln save so those failed LoSs in A and B are probably saving 33 to 66% of those wounds so instead your firing the shield breaker rounds. Its the same math as b) except its only 1 wound so its .25 wounds per turn of shooting on the intended target.

Basically he is bad at killing high value HQs and if you want volume of wounds or to pick off special weapon guys then take cheap things like scout snipers, kroot, rattlings, guard command squads with snipers, etc and throw volume of shots at the target.

This is why I almost never use him against high value HQs. He's usually firing at either expensive vehicles, or high value characters (not ICs)/special equipment guys who get no look out sir. In my last game, I had him immobilize a Darkshroud, then take out 2 ravenwing black knights, one with some special kind of gun and another with a banner, before the enemy got to him and killed him. If I'd wasted my 3 shots trying to damage Sammael, he would have been totally wasted.

This is the problem with the Vindicare that makes him seem below-average instead of average: EVERYONE uses him wrong, and goes for the long-odds greedy kills.

Not to get argumentative but that is a niche case scenario where his automatic ignores cover is better than a points equivalent unit of lascannons you can field in most armies. Even then you got a immobilize result against a Darkshroud and was shooting at some of the more expensive non invuln save models that rely on cover saves that aren't characters. For every ideal situation such as this you are going to see far more times where its either a psychic deathstar with good invuln saves, FNP, invis, etc or armies with special weapons and standard characters that maybe are worth 40 points in a squad that has multiple redundancy across the entire army.

I don't think people use him wrong in trying to take out ICs (that's literally his entire purpose in the fluff and the rules try to focus on that aspect) but its the issue that the current game mechanics make that goal of doing that extremely difficult to achieve because of how math works in this game. Same issue with the Tau Hammerhead with its Str 10 AP 1 Railgun that can only damage an exposed AV14 vehicle in 1 out of 3 shots and the chance that each shot will blow up AV14 is only 7% (11% for an open topped AV14 vehicle like a Battlewagon). Hammerhead issue also applies to the Vindicare with trying to take out vehicles as its very unlikely that the anti vehicle shot will destroy a vehicle given that its putting out 1 shot a turn. In the game of dice its the models that have redundancy and volume of rolls that get things done and not the 1 shot wonders that have to hope their single die can carry them through each step in the layered combat resolution process.

The problem is, if he was great at taking out ICs, he'd be too good. Imagine if every time the vindicare was on the table he took out a HQ? That would get boring very fast and every body would take a vindicare and hide their HQ inside a vehicle...

So if anything he sounds like a gamble.

High risk, high reward sort of deal.

Once thing, though, i want to see if everyone is in agreement on, he is pretty good at popping pesky vehicles no? Running a Deathwing Ravenwing, vehicles are rather troublesome for me to take care of.

He's a lot more reliable if you use fortifications.

As exanples, give him a Macro Cannon and bam, ignores cover apocalyptic blasts. Give him an Icarrus anything and you're sniping fliers at BS 8 and ignoring Jink saves to boot, I believe.

Seriously, give him a major fortification gun, even a lascannon and watch it turn into an Ignores Cover monster. That seems to be one of the best uses for him.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So if anything he sounds like a gamble.

High risk, high reward sort of deal.

Once thing, though, i want to see if everyone is in agreement on, he is pretty good at popping pesky vehicles no?

Str 10 Ap 1. Meh most days.

Audustum wrote:
He's a lot more reliable if you use fortifications.

As exanples, give him a Macro Cannon and bam, ignores cover apocalyptic blasts. Give him an Icarrus anything and you're sniping fliers at BS 8 and ignoring Jink saves to boot, I believe.

Seriously, give him a major fortification gun, even a lascannon and watch it turn into an Ignores Cover monster. That seems to be one of the best uses for him.

His Ignore Cover wargear only works with attacks that roll to hit (so no blast weapons).

 Vankraken wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's a lot more reliable if you use fortifications.

As exanples, give him a Macro Cannon and bam, ignores cover apocalyptic blasts. Give him an Icarrus anything and you're sniping fliers at BS 8 and ignoring Jink saves to boot, I believe.

Seriously, give him a major fortification gun, even a lascannon and watch it turn into an Ignores Cover monster. That seems to be one of the best uses for him.

His Ignore Cover wargear only works with attacks that roll to hit (so no blast weapons).

The Mask is what gives it. I thought it said "all shooting attacks" which would include blasts.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So if anything he sounds like a gamble.

High risk, high reward sort of deal.

Once thing, though, i want to see if everyone is in agreement on, he is pretty good at popping pesky vehicles no? Running a Deathwing Ravenwing, vehicles are rather troublesome for me to take care of.

The example of scary Vehicle in the current game imho is Wave Serpent loaded with Wraith Guard. Where the Vindicare one shot S10 AP2 ignore cover bullet is powerless against this pesky vehicle. He can do great shooting Raiders though but with the FAQ they are way less scary for losing the ability to deep strike with WG. Against other vehicles, the Vindicare might do ok.

Also, a good use of him is when facing IKs, use infiltration to put him on one of the side arc of Knight, and set up Lascannon to its front arc and droppod melta to its rear or the other side arc. That way, there will be something that cannot be covered by Ion Shield or bubble warp against.

Ironically, looks almost every Imperium Assains are likely to perform better when fighting Imperium forces than fighting Xenos or Chaos.

Well those are their intended targets. The assassins control governments through fear. Taking out external threats are probably very rare.

Spy mask: All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the Ignores Cover special rule.

In most cases, people are just using the sniper wrong. He's not used to take out independent characters, or other super high value targets. I don't even use him to take out Vehicles, as I still don't like the chances of failing. Optimally, you're only going to be able to shoot with them at most 7x. This means that every shot you fire has to make some impact for him to be effective. Ideally, you would be making your points back with him. But I've never liked that idea, and I don't justify my units by how many points they take out; I feel that is a bit too subjective for the impact of a unit on the field.

What the sniper should be used for is to take out special weapons in units you can't normally get. Whether that is either sniping out a Power sword sergeant from a unit who only has a 6 for look out sir rolls, a flamer in a unit you are about to charge with a nearby unit, taking out a plasma gun in a unit that is approaching your terminators, and other problematic choices like that. I suppose he is effective at killing landspeeders and dark shroud vehicles, but still that is only one hull point taken off. It is unlikely that you will destroy the vehicle with that one shot, so I only use it to remove the last hull point if I need to, but I will rarely ever use it like that. He is not the end-all-be-all character killer, he is there for support.

 Selym wrote:
Well those are their intended targets. The assassins control governments through fear. Taking out external threats are probably very rare.

Lol

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Well those are their intended targets. The assassins control governments through fear. Taking out external threats are probably very rare.

Lol

K den.

Reserving Vindicators is probably the only solution I like.

I kinda like the vindi... He certainly isn't the most competitive, but he's good at sniping squad leaders (-2 to look out sir) and squad upgrades (like your Apothecary on a bike, vox caster, grav cannon etc) plus they are very capable of taking out vehicles with the turbo pen round (most notably anything that hovers is a great target with his ignores cover mask)

You're paying a lot for 1 shot per round though, so assassins wise I'd pick up the Callidus or Culexus instead for more competitive games.

This is the problem with the Vindicare that makes him seem below-average instead of average: EVERYONE uses him wrong, and goes for the long-odds greedy kills.

Exactly so. It's all about figuring out how to get maximum impact from a couple of wounds on generic guys.

Sniping a heavy weapon out of a combat squad is a good example, or slotting the enginseer controlling a bunch of servitors. Medics, icons and so on are other good examples of kills that can seriously cramp a unit's style with a single wound.

For absolute best results, though, look to combine things; imagine a dreadnought lining up a charge against a squad of space marines. The dreadnought is probably going to lose because the squad has a power fist and there's no way he can kill enough models to 'reach' it.

*BLAM* what power fist? OMNOMNOMNOM.

Suddenly, that 1 kill has effectively netted you a whole squad.

Bonus points for having him behind an Aegis Defense Line manning a Quad gun... intercepting with the gun at BS10 (2+ rerollable) with ignore cover and then switching to his own rifle in his shooting phase

Im more of an Eversor guy myself
I find that ~6 shots a game for either 4+ to wound but ignoring invuns/2+ to wound/S10 against vehicles but a 4+ to wound that does D3 wounds seems a bit unreliable (to me), however the 72" range is nice
Whereas the Eversor has a 4 shot Bolt Pistol/Poison 4+ (for Infantry and MCs) a Fleshbane-Shred Melee Weapon (for MCs) a Power Sword (For MEQs) and Meltabombs (For Vehicles) (as well as 8 attacks on the charge) is more my Cup of Tea
He is Fast (potential 18" charge range),Reliable (His WS/BS/I8 isnt going to waste) and will put a dent in nearly everything (GEQs,MEQs,MCs and Vehicles)
Plus he us Crazy

Vindicares are pretty bad because you'll probably get 6 shots a game. Assuming they all hit, (a buddy of mine missed twice in a row) you can probably kill a few things, but probably not make your points back. Remember, most expensive stuff like that has an invlun or stuff to hide behind. If you use shieldbreaker to get rid of the invuln, then you're wounding on 4s.

I'd recommend against it. Add in some more terminators or bikes.