<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC in the game, with walkers and superheavy walkers, how do we differentiate the two rules wise? It doesn't make much sense that a dreadnought is a walker but a riptide is an MC. I've heard pros and cons for each but would it make sense to get rid of walkers entirely and just make everything that is not a tank a MC? Is there a way to fix the rules where it makes sense to have two separate descriptions for big walking creatures? I wanna know what Dakka thinks, should we keep both walkers and MC in the game rules wise, or should we axe one of them? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047766.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? mcs actually pay for their capabilities.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047799.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? AV but in the case of walkers if a shipping container can have toughness and an armor save then a Dreadnought can have toughness + armor save as well. Just make a rule for them called "mechanical" or something where its immune to poison, snipers, force and grav wounds on 6s but melta and armorbane does D3 wounds while EMP wounds on a 2+.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047801.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047811.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Vankraken wrote:
Normally I'm all for having AV but in the case of walkers if a shipping container can have toughness and an armor save then a Dreadnought can have toughness + armor save as well. Just make a rule for them called "mechanical" or something where its immune to poison, snipers, force and grav wounds on 6s but melta and armorbane does D3 wounds while EMP wounds on a 2+.

The Armoured Containers have a Toughness value because they're Battlefield Debris.
Why that happens? I don't know.

Realistically though, Walkers can't be fixed until Vehicles and Glancing Hits are.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047819.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Vankraken wrote:
Normally I'm all for having AV but in the case of walkers if a shipping container can have toughness and an armor save then a Dreadnought can have toughness + armor save as well. Just make a rule for them called "mechanical" or something where its immune to poison, snipers, force and grav wounds on 6s but melta and armorbane does D3 wounds while EMP wounds on a 2+.



A container is new, what about Quad Guns? They've had Toughness and Armor Saves for forever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047828.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs. Granted, most of my experience come from playing a lot of skitarii.

Pointwise, I can't think of any cheap MCs. Not saying you don't get what you pay for, but they're an noticeable investment and can hurt a lot more if you lose one. A dragoon is 45 points. So with a full squadron of 6 (or 2 of 3, etc.) 270 points total. And that's pocket change for what you get.

From there we can move into squadrons. Up to 6 dragoons in a unit is huge. Warwalkers can get 3 for 180 and scatterlasers for free I believe. And with their psychic nonsense, I've seen first hand (repeatedly) how much doom, prescience, and misfortune just wreck things.

And lastly, tarpitting. I've locked a unit of over a dozen gaunts for an entire game repeatedly with a single dragoon. Once, even had a tyranofex locked for a few turns as well as some gaunts with just one 45 point walker. I had an AA onager with his weapon destroyed. Got close enough to charge a demon prince and locked it up for 3 turns with that good old av12.

Don't get me wrong, MCs can be very powerful. I still have yet to run a list that is effective against multiple flyrants. Those things just laugh at my armies ha. And any MC with T7 or greater can be really tough to deal with unless you have the right tools like auto wounding, poison, etc.

As for SHWs and GMCs, I only ever run a bare bones gallant if I bring a knight. Otherwise I've always just felt like I've wasted a ton of points in a meta that eats knights. Spending another 90 points on a gatling gun and missile pod only to have it wrecked turn 2 has made me appreciate the giant wrecking ball D blast the gallant is. As for GMC's, wraithknights and heirodules are all I've faced. Neither one being a massive problem. But again, I run a lot of skitarii, so auto wound saturation is a big tool that has helped to mitigate their terror. I've never killed a wraithknight with my gallant or any knight for that matter. But I've droppped 2 with just my vanguard in a single round of shooting.. And in the MC vs Walker debate, 30 double auto wounding shots at S3 don't do much against AV10.

Truth be told though, the 30k mechanicum FMC that just got released will be added to my collection. There will also be fantasizing about it getting 40k rules...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047854.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Instead of having MCs treated as entirely different type of unit from Walkers (and by extension, vehicles in general), you have one set of rules governing all large models. Now the problem is much easier to solve as abilities and costs are easily translated and compared between two previously different units.

This also helps work out all the heavy and special weapons in the game as they'd be re-tooled to better reflect the lack of dramatic differences between MCs and vehicles.

It'd be a lot of work, but it would fix a lot of big problem areas in the core rules and among codex balance. It has the added benefit of being a much simpler and cleaner set of rules for all gamers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047920.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs with different rules, but with the introduction of Grav, which auto-immobilizes on a 6, only walkers are now considered unplayable.

Grav needs changed / tweaked. It's just too useful in too many situations...also...too many shots with easy access to rerolls. Bleh...grav is often the answer to current 40k balance issues.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047970.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? 40K rules. It is not even about balance or anything like that, it is just clumsy and inelegant.

Give the vehicles toughness and armour save. If you wan't you can even have different saves on different sides so you can keep that aspect. And if we want to keep it more complicated, we can even have a damage chart to roll on whenever the vehicle gets wounded. But please, for love of Khaine make the basic mechanics consistent!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Voidwraith wrote:
Grav is the problem. There have always been walkers and MCs with different rules, but with the introduction of Grav, which auto-immobilizes on a 6, only walkers are now considered unplayable.

Grav needs changed / tweaked. It's just too useful in too many situations...also...too many shots with easy access to rerolls. Bleh...grav is often the answer to current 40k balance issues.

Well yes, grav has terrible mechanics. It is insanely effective against vehicles, rendering actual anti-vehicle weapons obsolete. And against non-vehicles it doesn't merely negate the armour save, it makes it a liability. Think about that, your armour, a thing you pay points for in order to not get hurt makes it more likely that you get hurt!


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9047986.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Crimson wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Grav is the problem. There have always been walkers and MCs with different rules, but with the introduction of Grav, which auto-immobilizes on a 6, only walkers are now considered unplayable.

Grav needs changed / tweaked. It's just too useful in too many situations...also...too many shots with easy access to rerolls. Bleh...grav is often the answer to current 40k balance issues.

Well yes, grav has terrible mechanics. It is insanely effective against vehicles, rendering actual anti-vehicle weapons obsolete. And against non-vehicles it doesn't merely negate the armour save, it makes it a liability. Think about that, your armour, a thing you pay points for in order to not get hurt makes it more likely that you get hurt!




Sadly, I agree with this. I went up a buddy's Black Templars with a FW Land Raider with ceramite plating. Melta was useless, so instead I grav'd it down in one turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048026.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048029.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs have to roll on said chart as well. Then give Walkers Smash

Now MCs and Walkers are as close as they can be without a huge overhaul of the rules.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048041.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Galef wrote:
GIve all Vehicles armour saves, simplify the damage chart to 4 results on D3 and make MCs have to roll on said chart as well. Then give Walkers Smash

Now MCs and Walkers are as close as they can be without a huge overhaul of the rules.


I really don't understand why vehicles don't have armour saves! I totally agree with your suggestions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048087.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs. Having separate rules for vehicles is fine in a smaller game, but 40k is getting to complicated for it, and seriously needs some streamlining. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048156.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC, and still cheaper. For only about 5 points more a venerable dreadnought is way better than a carnifex if it had a save. I understand the treadheads like their vehicles, but MC still need to be viable too, otherwise you're just turning the time back to 5th edition]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048234.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs some form of damage table. No reason why a riptide cant have it's IA wielding arm scythed off by a lascannon round just like a dreadnought. Maybe reword an explodes result to headshot or something]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048239.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 insaniak wrote:
The answer for me is to just make vehicles into MCs. Having separate rules for vehicles is fine in a smaller game, but 40k is getting to complicated for it, and seriously needs some streamlining.
That is pretty much the solution Bolt Action uses which I am a fan of.
Just up the toughness to a tier where small arms fire does not hurt them and heavy weapons do.
http://www.warlordgames.com/guide-to-bolt-action-for-40k-players/
http://www.warlordgames.com/downloads/pdf/bolt_action_reference.pdf
The Reference Sheet pretty much gives you an idea of the rules in a nutshell.
A "super heavy tank" their version of a Land-raider needs an "11" and a bazooka is a D6+5 (Biggest gun is a Super-Heavy AT gun 84" one shot +8).
Makes for a fast game when shots blast through infantry like the paper they are and moral largely determines the effectiveness of the troops/vehicles rather than when they finally run.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048297.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Vector Strike wrote:
 Galef wrote:
GIve all Vehicles armour saves, simplify the damage chart to 4 results on D3 and make MCs have to roll on said chart as well. Then give Walkers Smash

Now MCs and Walkers are as close as they can be without a huge overhaul of the rules.


I really don't understand why vehicles don't have armour saves! I totally agree with your suggestions.


The purpose and consequent result is a distinguishing mechanic more than anything, I'd argue.

Even the lightest of vehicles in the game have an AV of no less than 10, and most vehicles are higher than that (depending on faction). The Toughness equivalent to AV 10 would be 6, and the vast majority of MC are either at or below that T value.

An AV of 14 is nothing less than the equivalent of a T value of 10. Most GMC don't even have that.

Vehicles also have a supercharged version of Fearless and blanket immunity to leadership-effecting abilities - they don't run, and they can't be mind-exploded.

Vehicles also tend to have fewer "wounds" (hullpoints), though that isn't a necessary element to their design, more a design trend.

But with that exceptional comparative toughness (and consequent fewer wounds) and leadership immunity/benefit come multiple "balancing" mechanics, arguably more than would be required to truly balance the types:

1. No Armor Save. Most MC end up with at least a 4+ save, but the only things Vehicles can do to negate successful "wounds" is through cover (difficult to get) or invulnerable saves (rare).

2. Different T values based on facing. MCs tend to have the same T value all the way around, while Vehicles end up with different "T values" depending on where you attack from. Sure, a Leman Russ is going to have a T value equivalent of 10 from the front, but it isn't any "tougher" than a Dreadknight if attacked from behind (and unlike the Dreadknight, it won't get an armor save or Invuln save against most incoming attacks).

3. AP-based Instant Death, rather than Strength- or Special Rule-based Instant Death. In exchange for immunity from the latter, a Vehicle becomes vulnerable to the former... and unlike the latter, there is no Special Rule that negates the former (like Eternal Warrior does for the latter). The former is also much more common - quite a few anti-vehicle rules have AP 2 and 1, and some vehicles have vulnerabilities that make ANY weapon capable of more than glancing it to cause ID.

4. Damage Chart. Unlike MC, almost all attacks capable of more than glancing a vehicle have the possibility of causing temporary and permanent penalties, like immobilization, destroyed weapons, and forced Snap Shots.

5. Facing. Unlike MC, Vehicles can only fire in certain arcs, thus severely limiting their ability to put their firepower where it needs to be (especially given their vulnerability to temporary and permanent immobilization).

6. Greater potential firepower at the cost of movement- and chart-based limits/restrictions (i.e. Snap-firing). Sure, a vehicle could fire more weapons than an MC... if they have the weapons, if they're allowed to fire (i.e. template/blast weapons when forced to Snap Shot), and with potentially reduced accuracy.



Like I said, I don't think the benefits of the Vehicle type outweigh the penalties... But if you're looking to convert Vehicles to MC, you're going to need to do a fair amount of work to make them appropriately balanced. How do you make a vehicle with 3+ weapons work within the MC type? How does the sudden lack of vulnerability to forced Snap-fire and immobilization modify that? How and when would an Instant Death vulnerability be applied? What would be an appropriate armor save without overbalancing in the other direction? How do you reflect the faster speeds of vehicles in general? What T value do you choose, or do you start to introduce facing and T values to MC? Do you change the vehicle-specific USRs to reflections of the T value-based USRs (Armorbane? Tank Hunter? Melta? Haywire?)... do you use a "Vehicle" type modifier to distinguish vulnerabilities to USRs?

There's a lot of work that goes into converting one type to the other, and it isn't simple - it would require a serious revamp of a lot of values, rules, types and USRs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048376.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048470.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 hippyjr wrote:
While we're at it, give MCs some form of damage table. No reason why a riptide cant have it's IA wielding arm scythed off by a lascannon round just like a dreadnought. Maybe reword an explodes result to headshot or something


I have an idea: have such a damage table effect all models. After all, who doesn't like the idea of shooting a conversion beamer off a techmarine, a captain off his bike, or a pistol out of a character's hand?

I was going to suggest just for multiwound models, but such a change would give a viable reason to have FNP: the effect still happens, you just don't lose a wound.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048599.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? RPGs for that level of detail.

It would be a terrible idea for normal 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048602.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Blacksails wrote:
A damage table for all models would only work in a kill team size game, and even then would be better left to RPGs for that level of detail.

It would be a terrible idea for normal 40k.


Would such an inclusion that would promote smaller games be such a bad thing?

And I would like to see an apothecary HQ for SM. . .

okay, I have to ask, what army currently has army wide FNP on 1 wound models?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048611.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
It's just useless bloat at the scale 40k us typically played at. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048632.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 carldooley wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
A damage table for all models would only work in a kill team size game, and even then would be better left to RPGs for that level of detail.

It would be a terrible idea for normal 40k.


Would such an inclusion that would promote smaller games be such a bad thing?

And I would like to see an apothecary HQ for SM. . .

okay, I have to ask, what army currently has army wide FNP on 1 wound models?


Iron hands marines, skitarii, dark eldar, necrons (very close equivalent,) and any list that throws in a medic/apothecary into a squad such as any marine chapter's command squad, BA priest IC's, sisters' medics, guard iirc, chaos has zombies and plague marines, salamanders get it against flamers...I'm sure the list goes on.

On the topic. Take smash away from MC's and make them operate like walkers in that regard. If they want ap2, they need to take a cc weapon, not get ap2 "free" even when they're just slapping you with the nozzle of a twin-linked devourer or ion accelerator, while shooty dreads and the like hit with ap -. That's not everything I'd change, but it's a start.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048650.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 niv-mizzet wrote:
On the topic. Take smash away from MC's and make them operate like walkers in that regard. If they want ap2, they need to take a cc weapon, not get ap2 "free" even when they're just slapping you with the nozzle of a twin-linked devourer or ion accelerator,

I actually fully agree here. Or not actually a CC weapon, but a 'ministomp' for FMCs, or a bite attack for things like the dakkafex?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048653.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs (Riptide and, due to GMCs being an extension of MCs, Wraithknights).

Otherwise if MCs in general really are this imbalanced, then the Tyranid Army would be top tier since 50% of it's list is MCs, and it has a MC for literally every single slot.

A Haruspex is barely useful as it is, take away it's Smash and even the pyrovore will pity it's uselessness. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048665.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 carldooley wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
On the topic. Take smash away from MC's and make them operate like walkers in that regard. If they want ap2, they need to take a cc weapon, not get ap2 "free" even when they're just slapping you with the nozzle of a twin-linked devourer or ion accelerator,

I actually fully agree here. Or not actually a CC weapon, but a 'ministomp' for FMCs, or a bite attack for things like the dakkafex?


It shouldn't be taken away completely. At the very least give them AP4 attacks.
And give walkers the same.

Then the MCs without Melee weapons should get them (as upgrades at the very least), otherwise DPs, KoS & GUO (& probably some Nid MCs too) that are meant to be combat monsters might as well be Ogryns, and we all know how great Ogryns are in melee...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048680.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? AP 3 is fine for MC attacks. Just not AP 2. Most 2+ units are horribly overpriced in the 7th ed meta and this is one reason why. Maybe AP 3 with rending. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048690.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 insaniak wrote:
The answer for me is to just make vehicles into MCs. Having separate rules for vehicles is fine in a smaller game, but 40k is getting to complicated for it, and seriously needs some streamlining.
this should and will almost certainly happen next year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048716.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 axisofentropy wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
The answer for me is to just make vehicles into MCs. Having separate rules for vehicles is fine in a smaller game, but 40k is getting to complicated for it, and seriously needs some streamlining.
this should and will almost certainly happen next year.


I feel that simply "making them MCs" would make vehicles extremely more powerful than the current MCs. What would an imp knight be? WS/BS4 T8-9 with 360 arc of fire and a 4++ and FnP? Grav wouldn't touch it and it's guns are perfect for wrecking units that are packing autowound or instant death spam which are usually infantry, but now in every direction. Basically, D weapons become your only real fear. How bout land raiders becoming T10 boxes? It'd pretty uneventful to watch my s10 ap1 nuetron laser put a single wound on it... Or dreadnoughts being t7-8 with storm shields... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048803.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Welcome to what fighting MCs is already like.

IKs are a joke as they are currently priced and implemented. Especially compared to the god-like GMCs.

A riptide can absorb more meltaguns and lascannons than a WARHOUND TITAN. Think about that a minute. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048817.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? IMO. So many tools exist to deal with MCs.

Again, I'm not saying MCs are weak, but it's really an apples to oranges comparison.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048835.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs cost effectively. Cost effectively being the operating phrase.

There's grav. And..... what? MCs and GMCs have god-like points efficiency in 40K because they don't have a damage table, can't immobilize themselves and can't be IDed by most lists

There is literally no role for low AP, low ROF weapons in 7th ed. Vehicles get HPed out by medium str, high ROF and MCs are basically immune to these weapons.

Oh, and MCs ignore all armor in melee because reasons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048837.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs share that are hindered by a vehicle damage table? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048849.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048850.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Grav, Skitarii Vanguard (Radium Carbines ROCK!), Rending Lasguns (through Misfortune-pairs well with Monster Hunter from Orders), massed Poison fire, massed Sniper fire...


That's actually an incredibly short list compared to anti-vehicle options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nelson Mechanized wrote:
But what identical roles do walkers and MCs share that are hindered by a vehicle damage table?


Living?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048854.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048860.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? TWC, which is a unit of MCs. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048864.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
That's 2 max squads of Skitarii Vanguard with Omnispexes. They put out 60 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling to 5s, for 53.33 hits. That's 17.78 wounds, or 2.96 past its armour save. So, point for point, Vanguard can't one-turn kill a Riptide. But guess what? They don't need to. They can take more than one turn, since the Riptide can't kill them all in one turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048873.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
That Riptide could be melting your other units, other more optimal targets. Riptide also beats most of my units in CC by virtue of being immortal. The Riptide laughs at my entire codex. Not a fun feeling. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048876.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? CC. It has 3 attacks at WS2. 10 Marines will tie it up for around...

Well, let's see. 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wound. That's 8 turns of combat it's tied up for.

But wait! You play Blood Angels! You have that one thing that lets you increase their WS by 1! (The Grail or something?) Toss that thing in there, and your WS5 marines are now hit on 5s!

It now has 3 attacks, 1 hit, .83 wound. That's now 12 turns it's tied up for!

Edit: Name one thing in the Skitarii Codex scarier than Vanguard. One thing. I dare you.

Oh, and also, your 10 Marines might be about 2/3rds his points cost, but they probably have Objective Secured, while he doesn't. Tie him up on an objective and watch the Tau player weep.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048880.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
So tie it up in CC. It has 3 attacks at WS2. 10 Marines will tie it up for around...

Well, let's see. 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wound. That's 8 turns of combat it's tied up for.

But wait! You play Blood Angels! You have that one thing that lets you increase their WS by 1! (The Grail or something?) Toss that thing in there, and your WS5 marines are now hit on 5s!

It now has 3 attacks, 1 hit, .83 wound. That's now 12 turns it's tied up for!


So it defacto kills one more unit via tarpit after blasting my list for 2-3 turns if I'm lucky? BA can not win at that rate. It's a tabling for sure. The priest alone is half the cost of the Riptide almost. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048881.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
But please, for the love of the Emperor, stop whining.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048882.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Fine. Then use Grav-you have it after Angel's Blade.

But please, for the love of the Emperor, stop whining.


BA can't bring enough grav to even make a Riptide notice. We don't have centurions. The devs are easily killed before they get within range. Actually, the whole list is pretty easily killed by Tau before it gets within range. Have you played against Tau? Or MCs at all? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048887.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
And use Drop Pods. You don't have the Skyhammer, but it only takes 16.4 grav shots at BS4 to kill them if you get first turn (two squads of Devastators) or if they decide they want to try Nova-Charging literally anything other than shields.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048889.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? BA don't have the gladius, and 400 pts of free obj sec transports being necessary to even the scales vs MCs is my whole point.

There is no reason to ever nova charge anything other than shields. Another design flaw with the Riptide. Of course, when you've got all the MC rules working for you, it helps. A lot.

Riptide is a 300 pt model. At least. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048890.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048895.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel, do me (and yourself) a favor. Stop playing with your current group. They clearly are on a different level than you, bringing tournament level lists while you bring your BA (which are not top-tier. I'll agree with you there) so just do EVERYONE a favor and find a group that's more on your level.

More on topic, I'd be fine giving (most) Walkers Smash. That'd even the playing field considerably.

I'd also be fine with vice-versa. Removing Smash from some Monstrous Creatures. Daemon Princes should probably keep Smash, for instance, since they're CC murder machines. Ripdtides, though? Not so much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048896.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC-like units like TWC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
*Sigh...*

Martel, do me (and yourself) a favor. Stop playing with your current group. They clearly are on a different level than you, bringing tournament level lists while you bring your BA (which are not top-tier. I'll agree with you there) so just do EVERYONE a favor and find a group that's more on your level.

More on topic, I'd be fine giving (most) Walkers Smash. That'd even the playing field considerably.

I'd also be fine with vice-versa. Removing Smash from some Monstrous Creatures. Daemon Princes should probably keep Smash, for instance, since they're CC murder machines. Ripdtides, though? Not so much.


They'd still be immortal infinite tarpits in CC, though. After intercepting and melting expensive units without having to nova charge their gun. They are more durable that Warhound Titans. There's no small tweak you can do to fix this. I can't believe I have to say more than "more durable than Warhound Titan".

My group is largely not the point here. MCs are busted across the board compared to vehicles. Vehicles have practically no redeeming features. There is no group I can find where MCs won't laugh me off the table. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048899.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048900.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048900.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How about instead of taking away AP2 from Monstrous Creatures we give it to Walkers as well. I'd find it hard to believe that even a Sentinel can't crush a Marine with its big feet.


We need less AP2 in melee, not more. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048902.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Just stop. It's solid "top 10 most broken units in the game" material, and it is near the top of the list. By the time you manage to get a squad to tie the thing up and stop it from deleting units from across the table, the damage has been done, and losing yet another unit to tie it up is even more loss piled on. Removing it from relevance without paying well over its point cost for the unit or units that do it is an extremely rare event. This is as opposed to say...a barebones dreadnought that is very likely to either be rendered useless or outright killed from a single shot from a 10 point meltagun.

Do you really think that the tau players at tournaments who show up hoping to get into the upper tables are going to spend half their points on riptides if they weren't one of the best units accessible to them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048918.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? AP 4 and Rending rather than straight up AP 2, to parallel the AP 4 and removal-on-a-six of SHW/GMC stomp attacks.

I also think giving Walkers Smash would be appropriate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048920.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Wait is someone trying to defend the riptide again?

Just stop. It's solid "top 10 most broken units in the game" material, and it is near the top of the list. By the time you manage to get a squad to tie the thing up and stop it from deleting units from across the table, the damage has been done, and losing yet another unit to tie it up is even more loss piled on. Removing it from relevance without paying well over its point cost for the unit or units that do it is an extremely rare event. This is as opposed to say...a barebones dreadnought that is very likely to either be rendered useless or outright killed from a single shot from a 10 point meltagun.

Do you really think that the tau players at tournaments who show up hoping to get into the upper tables are going to spend half their points on riptides if they weren't one of the best units accessible to them?


They never stop. It's like math is a completely foreign concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I think it would be appropriate to make Smash AP 4 and Rending rather than straight up AP 2, to parallel the AP 4 and removal-on-a-six of SHW/GMC stomp attacks.

I also think giving Walkers Smash would be appropriate.


Giving them that smash would be fine. Especially with how often they won't get to use it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048921.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? GT winning msu horde gladius against a 5-tide spam plus ghostkeels at a recent event and lost, and he came far closer to tabling me than any army ever has since the formation has existed. I had like...a Culexus and a couple pods left at the end of 7.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048922.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
At this point, my plan A would be just to make MCs appropriately costed and accept that vehicles are mostly trash. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048924.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048926.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Even the lightest of vehicles in the game have an AV of no less than 10, and most vehicles are higher than that (depending on faction). The Toughness equivalent to AV 10 would be 6, and the vast majority of MC are either at or below that T value.


T6!=AV10.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9048995.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
That would make T6=AV10]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049013.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? AV 10.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049015.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049069.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
tneva82 wrote:
 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Even the lightest of vehicles in the game have an AV of no less than 10, and most vehicles are higher than that (depending on faction). The Toughness equivalent to AV 10 would be 6, and the vast majority of MC are either at or below that T value.


T6!=AV10.



On a "equivalent to-wound/hull point loss" sense, it mostly does, with the caveat that T6 is (slightly) vulnerable to S3 where AV10 is immune, but AV10 is subject to automatic "wounds" at S9 or higher where T6 would still only be wounded on a 2+.

S4? Wounds/damages (i.e. removes a Hullpoint) on a 6.
S5? Wounds/damages on a 5+.
S6? Wounds/damages on a 4+.
S7? Wounds/damages on a 3+.
S8? Wounds/damages on a 2+.

The resulting damage is in many ways different (due to the table-rolling nature of penetrating hits), but in that narrow sense, they are equivalent values - certainly the closest to an equivalent value that AV and T can get, at any rate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arson Fire wrote:
Indeed. T6 is slightly weaker than AV10. AV9.5 perhaps.


Slightly weaker against low S attacks, slightly stronger against high S attacks (AV 10 is automatically glanced or penetrated by S9 and automatically penetrated by S10, while T6 is subject to nothing worse than a 2+).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049076.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods vs Tau is suicide. Even for skyhammer. The true counter to Tau is just accept that you can't outfight them and use gladius and win by horde tactics. But BA don't have the gladius, and 400 pts of free obj sec transports being necessary to even the scales vs MCs is my whole point.

There is no reason to ever nova charge anything other than shields. Another design flaw with the Riptide. Of course, when you've got all the MC rules working for you, it helps. A lot.

Riptide is a 300 pt model. At least.


Oh . A tailored Tau list will absolutely ruin your day. A TAC one? Not so much. And if a Riptide is deleting a unit a turn, it doesn't cost 220 pts. The actual cost is closer to 600 points, and that should absolutely be able to.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049244.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Tygre wrote:
I've always considered T8 3+ save to be equivilent to AV12 because of the Eldar Dreadnought/Wraithlord in the 3rd ed codex. In 2nd it had an armour value equivilent to an Imperial Dreadnought if I remember, but I do not know what it had in the 3rd ed rulebook errata lists.

That would make T6=AV10


No it wouldn't unless you give AV10 vehicles also 1+ save without 1 always fail rule. Otherwise you have anything that has S3 capable of hurting vehicle they before couldn't.

Similarly AV11!=T7.

And mere idea of lasguns taking out vehicles is pretty damn stupid. Whole point of armoured vehicles has been to protect against small arm fire. Armour at 40k is really so crappy they can't even protect guys from small arm anymore?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049300.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? ap weapons? They would just be wrecked before they got across the board]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049785.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
What's the point of having an armor save on vehicles though with the plethora of low ap weapons? They would just be wrecked before they got across the board

They already do that now. At least most low ap weapon are suppose to kill vehicles]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049809.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
What's the point of having an armor save on vehicles though with the plethora of low ap weapons? They would just be wrecked before they got across the board


To force people to actually use those low ROF anti-armour weapons. A Dreadnought wouldn't get glanced to death by scatterbikes as easily if it had even a 3+ save.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049810.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
What's the point of having an armor save on vehicles though with the plethora of low ap weapons? They would just be wrecked before they got across the board


There are only certain low AP weapons being used, and none of them are low ROF for the most part. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049817.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049842.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049848.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.


Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049882.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? Lol we don't have to fix it. GW will do it for us ; ) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049891.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.


Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength


I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049898.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC with 2 sub types. Mechanical which has an armor value and Biological which does not. Maybe the Mechanical will be immune to poison but faces all the issues armor does but Biological will be effected by poison and no armor.

Make Walkers into MC: Mechanical

Sadly I don't think there is one blanket answer though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049910.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.


Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength


I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess.


What if it was something like: If Str is 3 more than opponents toughness, strips 2 wounds. If it is 4 more, strips 3 wounds. This would mean the only way to one shot AV10(or T6 if vehicles get a toughness) would be to bring strength 10 weapons. Or instead of multiple wounds, you get the ability to roll multiple dice to wound]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9049914.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050027.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC.

Alternatively, get rid of Walkers and make them MCs with the Walker special rule that makes them immune to poison.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050032.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 kronk wrote:
Increase the cost of MC.

Alternatively, get rid of Walkers and make them MCs with the Walker special rule that makes them immune to poison.


I like your second option better than the first, mostly due to being a part time Tyranid player, Tyranids are proof that Monstrous Creatures are perfectly capable of being rubbish.
I'd actually like to see the vehicle damage table deleted and rending made into a viable rule again like stacking damage.
Eg. AV14 vs S6 Rending
Strength six isn't enough to inflict hull damage but on a roll of six rather than rolling the second dice to attempt to cause damage Rending drops the AV by two points bringing it down to AV12 and within damage range from the next initiative step onwards.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050364.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Still better than Imperial vehicles. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050382.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
"Tyranids are proof that Monstrous Creatures are perfectly capable of being rubbish. "

Still better than Imperial vehicles.

Better is not good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050386.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Tyranids are proof that Monstrous Creatures are perfectly capable of being rubbish. "

Still better than Imperial vehicles.

Better is not good.


T6 3+ ignores armor in melee still gets my attention. But I know, BA. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050390.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Vash108 wrote:
I always like the idea of have a MC with 2 sub types. Mechanical which has an armor value and Biological which does not. Maybe the Mechanical will be immune to point but faces all the issues armor does but Biological will be effected by poison and no armor.

Make Walkers into MC: Mechanical

Sadly I don't think there is one blanket answer though.


No, this is absolutely the blanket answer.

You either drop vehicles as a type of unit entirely and make all existing vehicles into MCs with a USR called 'Mechanical' or similar, and all living MCs get the USR 'Biological', or you drop MCs as a type of unit and turn all MCs into vehicles with a similar split to differentiate biolgical vs mechanical units.

Either way, certain USRs for weapons now become effective against their logical unit type; poison won't do much against mechanical units, and likewise haywire won't do much against biological units. You also fix many of the issues with special and heavy weapons when you rework them so that there's roughly even parity between anti-biological and anti-mechanical unit types.

This change has many benefits. Its simpler to learn and play having one ruleset govern all large models. Its significantly fluffier, as we get to fix the discrepancy of why a riptide is an MC and a dreadnought is a vehicle. Its easier to balance as we don't have to try and factor how armor values typically don't get saves but are immune to all weaponry below a certain strength. Everything can now be balanced based on their statline as they're all easily comparable.

And before certain chime in with complaints that grav is op, or that certain units are criminally undercosted; yes, if someone competent were to make such sweeping changes to the core rules, rest assured, they'd also fix other broken elements like grav and poorly pointed units.

The solution is a core rule change. Shifting some point values doesn't address the issue that the rules are illogical, overly complicated, and make the game significantly harder to balance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050394.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Tyranids are proof that Monstrous Creatures are perfectly capable of being rubbish. "

Still better than Imperial vehicles.

Better is not good.


T6 3+ ignores armor in melee still gets my attention. But I know, BA.


I didn't know Blood Angels couldn't get Las Canons, Power Swords or Lightning Claws...I wonder if that means one of my mates who runs BA is a cheat?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050471.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Power swords and claws are both quite overcosted, especially in the BA codex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050474.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? Str and one higher AP each time until it either fails to pen or passes a save. So Lascannons would resolve Str9AP2, Str8AP3, Str7AP4, Str6AP5, Str5AP6, Str4AP-, and so on until one of the two limiting conditions are met.

* oh, another USR. nevermind.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050535.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Lascannons are fantastically terrible in 7th against the field.

Power swords and claws are both quite overcosted, especially in the BA codex.


And yet a Las Canon will get enough shots to pop most Tyranid MCs before they even get to their own shooting range. 15 points is pretty normal for a power sword on a Space Marine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050613.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lascannons are fantastically terrible in 7th against the field.

Power swords and claws are both quite overcosted, especially in the BA codex.


And yet a Las Canon will get enough shots to pop most Tyranid MCs before they even get to their own shooting range. 15 points is pretty normal for a power sword on a Space Marine.


No, it really won't. LoS and cover is a thing. Plus, the snap shooting on vehicles that have to move.

15 pts is an unsustainable price for a power sword, normal or not. That wounds an MC on a 6. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050679.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs and GMCs
Change Glancing hits to:
no hull point lost, roll on damage table -2


Boom, walkers (and vehicles) are LEAGUES better]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9050693.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lascannons are fantastically terrible in 7th against the field.

Power swords and claws are both quite overcosted, especially in the BA codex.


And yet a Las Canon will get enough shots to pop most Tyranid MCs before they even get to their own shooting range. 15 points is pretty normal for a power sword on a Space Marine.


No, it really won't. LoS and cover is a thing. Plus, the snap shooting on vehicles that have to move.

15 pts is an unsustainable price for a power sword, normal or not. That wounds an MC on a 6.


So, just because a vehicle can move more than six inches it naturally has to, not that it matters, you even have vehicles that can be equipped with a las canon and move up to twelve inches while still firing at full Ballistic Skill value.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure you'd be wounding most Tyranid MCs on a five considering they're mostly T6 and your Blood Angels have Furious Charge.
You know I play Space Wolves as my primary army so these numbers aren't exactly foreign to me. I've killed those creatures with these weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051443.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? TWC can plow through an entire tyranid list. Sure, I can do okay if I tailor for Tyranids, but if I don't, the MCs are going to wreck my list. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051733.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.


Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength


I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess.


What if it was something like: If Str is 3 more than opponents toughness, strips 2 wounds. If it is 4 more, strips 3 wounds. This would mean the only way to one shot AV10(or T6 if vehicles get a toughness) would be to bring strength 10 weapons. Or instead of multiple wounds, you get the ability to roll multiple dice to wound

That's a really, really terrible rule for balance. You're effectively giving Instant Death to all high strength weapons. Do you want Plasma Guns to deal two wounds to Space Marines? Or heck, you can now Instant Death T5 with S9 and T6 with S10, except in the rare cases where models have four wounds, in which case you're just *nearly* killing them.

Lascannons don't suck because they fire just one shot, they suck because they're too expensive and don't have a specific job to do. Meltaguns just fire one shot, but they're awesome because they're dedicated and relatively cheap.
Or, to put it another way: Meltaguns kill tanks vastly better than Lascannons ever could. (Unless that tank has Armored Ceramite and AV14, I guess.) Plasmaguns kill 2+ armor better than Lascannons, at least most of the time. Grav-Guns deal with both tanks and armor better than Lascannons with RoF. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051869.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? mcs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9051884.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Waaaghpower wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking


It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.


Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength


I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess.


What if it was something like: If Str is 3 more than opponents toughness, strips 2 wounds. If it is 4 more, strips 3 wounds. This would mean the only way to one shot AV10(or T6 if vehicles get a toughness) would be to bring strength 10 weapons. Or instead of multiple wounds, you get the ability to roll multiple dice to wound

That's a really, really terrible rule for balance. You're effectively giving Instant Death to all high strength weapons. Do you want Plasma Guns to deal two wounds to Space Marines? Or heck, you can now Instant Death T5 with S9 and T6 with S10, except in the rare cases where models have four wounds, in which case you're just *nearly* killing them.

Lascannons don't suck because they fire just one shot, they suck because they're too expensive and don't have a specific job to do. Meltaguns just fire one shot, but they're awesome because they're dedicated and relatively cheap.
Or, to put it another way: Meltaguns kill tanks vastly better than Lascannons ever could. (Unless that tank has Armored Ceramite and AV14, I guess.) Plasmaguns kill 2+ armor better than Lascannons, at least most of the time. Grav-Guns deal with both tanks and armor better than Lascannons with RoF.


I've seen the idea for this kind of rule come from many different people on here, it's not something that just I think is a good idea. Hell even Martel agreed]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052008.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052012.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
That was also a time of conditional toughness modifiers, where bikers toughness was still considered the same as their non-mounted equivalents for purposes of Instant Death - so hopping on a bike didn't protect one's SM characters from instant death via lascannon.

The problem with lascannons in Imperial armies is that the platforms for them mostly came into being in 2nd ed, and the rules for those platforms have not aged well, requiring the platform to be mostly static. That's why Forge World vehicles are usually better than the ones we get from the codex - their rules were developed with the current realities of the game in mind, as opposed to being set editions ago and not being adapted well.

I can't remember the last time I found a regular power weapon to be an effective upgrade. I don't think I ever considered a regular power weapon to be good enough for an IC, going all the way back to 3rd edition. They're not particularly good on sergeants either, because they don't have enough attacks, even if you pay the additional 10pts to make them a Veteran. Lightning claws are a little better, but these days a close combat weapon upgrade on a character needs to both increase the strength of the wielder and bypass armor saves to be considered worthwhile. Plus, going at initiative is a big plus. My current preferred upgrade is the Mace of Redemption, all day every day.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052017.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
It's much easier to just give very devastating single shot weapons two wounds inflicted per wound cleared. Against any target, including eternal warriors. And make the Hammerhead a D weapon. Lascannon to the face should hurt, not be a joke.


I am highly against making the Hammerhead a D-weapon. Ranged D should be incredibly rare and expensive, not one BS3 shot per around 100 points (with a BS that can be improved by Markerlights).

That's part of why Wraithknights are so OP-they've got 2 ranged D shots for under 300 points. (Among other reasons, of course.)

Edit: Multiple wounds from powerful weapons is okay with me, though. Although I might make Eternal Warrior resist that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052019.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052020.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052023.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052024.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.


50 Lascannons, at BS4.

33.33 hits.

27.78 wounds.

9.26 past the 3+ Invuln.

6.17 past the 5+ FNP.

Martel, don't exaggerate. (Give me a moment to calculate the odds of actually failing to take it out.)

You have a 24.46% chance of NOT taking out the Riptide with 50 Lascannons at BS4.

Edit: Assuming it has a 3+ Invuln and FNP. Drop either of those, and the odds change considerably.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052028.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.


The math doesn't add up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052032.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.


50 Lascannons, at BS4.

33.33 hits.

27.78 wounds.

9.26 past the 3+ Invuln.

6.17 past the 5+ FNP.

Martel, don't exaggerate. (Give me a moment to calculate the odds of actually failing to take it out.)

You have a 24.46% chance of NOT taking out the Riptide with 50 Lascannons at BS4.


The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed". The fact that we had to run numbers on 50 lascannons is nuts. If we go down to 40 lascannons, there is only a 50/50 shot. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052035.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!


Str D should be limited to apocalypse if possible, but if not, should be limited to Super Heavies and Gargantuans. And yes, with the rule I made a str 9 lascannon would do 2 wounds to a T6 riptide]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052038.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed".


Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game of dice.

More than that, that's assuming the Riptide both has Stimulant Injectors and nova-charged their shielding, neither of which are guaranteed. Do you want the odds without those?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052040.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed".


Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game of dice.

More than that, that's assuming the Riptide both has Stimulant Injectors and nova-charged their shielding, neither of which are guaranteed. Do you want the odds without those?


No, but those things are what we must assume given a good Tau player. Even further, you will never get 40 or even 20 lascannon shots on a singe riptide in a game anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage


That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!


Str D should be limited to apocalypse if possible, but if not, should be limited to Super Heavies and Gargantuans. And yes, with the rule I made a str 9 lascannon would do 2 wounds to a T6 riptide


I disagree. I think the Hammerhead is more deserving that some super heavies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052043.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052046.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.


Or dice rolls don't go in their favor]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052049.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.


I'm talking about the woes of the lascannon/multimelta/meltagun here. Not grav. Low ROF, low AP. MCs make these weapons very unattractive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.


Or dice rolls don't go in their favor


The die rolls can just as easily go in their favor and push the number well above 50. This is a non-argument. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052051.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052051.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Tactics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052057.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Take advantage of the times when it doesn't. Don't shoot at Riptides with AP2 weaponry unless they fail their nova-charge, or nova-charge something besides the shields.

Tactics.


I don't have time for that. My army melts waiting from them to blow a shield roll. You don't think I could have thought of that?

This conversation is such a joke when you look at the fact that any given single shot can render a vehicle destroyed or crippled, but MCs fight on like nothing happened. We're throwing around numbers of lascannons that would down Warhound titans. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052061.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Take advantage of the times when it doesn't. Don't shoot at Riptides with AP2 weaponry unless they fail their nova-charge, or nova-charge something besides the shields.

Tactics.


I don't have time for that. My army melts waiting from them to blow a shield roll. You don't think I could have thought of that?


Let's assume they bring a Riptide Wing, with the minimum of 3 Riptides. First off, that's half their army right there. Second off, they have a 29.77% chance of one failing each turn. That's a 50.67% chance one fails by turn 2, and a 65.36% chance by turn 3.

Not to mention the chance you get turn one, in which case, they CANNOT have shields up.

Edit: Oh, I definitely agree that MCs need a nerf or Vehicles need a buff. (Preferably a small nerf to MCs and a big buff to Vehicles, for me personally.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052066.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? mcs burn rules-wise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052138.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
After 6th and 7th, i kinda want to see mcs burn rules-wise.


That's just being bitter. I do agree, Vehicles need to be on par, point for point, to Monstrous Creatures. But think about how much it stinks playing with something that's not good against something that is. While it might be sadistically satisfying to do so, it's for the betterment of the hobby and the community if NO ONE has to deal with that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052145.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052148.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052150.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


I don't play Tau or Eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052160.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
After 6th and 7th, i kinda want to see mcs burn rules-wise.


That's just being bitter. I do agree, Vehicles need to be on par, point for point, to Monstrous Creatures. But think about how much it stinks playing with something that's not good against something that is. While it might be sadistically satisfying to do so, it's for the betterment of the hobby and the community if NO ONE has to deal with that.


If I ever thought that GW could do that, I'd agree. But I'll settle for them inadvertently fething over MCs like they have done to BA, DE and Orks entire lists. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052163.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


...So nobody's a Daemon or Tyranid player trying to protect the bits that make their armies work?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052165.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052166.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.


And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052173.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


I don't play Tau or Eldar.


sorry i meant to say "for the most part" but with that said you always seem to be defending the fish and elves so ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052175.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.


Yeah, but that will only lead to more bitterness in the end.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052178.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? GW vehicles because they look cool since the 90s and they all got bent over. The GW wheel of arbitrary nerfage spares no one. Except Eldar, of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vash108 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.


Yeah, but that will only lead to more bitterness in the end.


GW does nothing to mitigate bitterness, so might as well embrace it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052179.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.


Martel why you so bitter?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052183.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel why you so bitter?


Just flip through his post history.

1. Plays Blood angels in a competitive area with lots of Eldar and Tau.
2. Loves to bitch and complain.
3. Can't stand to see other people enjoy something.


Other people might quit playing in that environment and either switch games or look for less competitive players.

But our guy Martel has the stones to tough it out.

Like a real man. A real man that chews bark and poops sunshine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052189.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 TheLumberJack wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.


Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix


No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.


And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.


Then they would be in the same boat as I am in right now. The Morkanaut/Gorkanaut/Killa Kanz/Deff Dreadz/All ork flyers look cool as hell and I bought them for that reason because in the game THEY SUCK HORRIBLY!

So there you have it ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052192.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052194.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? BA operated. But then everyone quickly shut up when Necrons and GK dropped. Before that, BA had a damn White Dwarf codex that was quite awful. Now, 6th/7th basically completely emasculated the entire army concept through a variety of meta changes. So yeah, that might make one kind of bitter.

You've got a couple lists that deploy and win: Eldar and Tau, and another army, SW, that does everything strictly better. And big part of the Eldar/Tau autowinning is undercosted MCs/GMCs. MCs/GMCs that magically suck down more damage than a squadron of land raiders. Not to mention current Eldar/Tau being able to do things far above and beyond what was possible with BA 5th ed codex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052199.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
The only thing I can hope for is this new phase of GW will take some of these things to heart.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052204.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Vash108 wrote:
I don't think making more bitter players is the answer.

The only thing I can hope for is this new phase of GW will take some of these things to heart.


They never do. They never learn. They let models languish for multiple editions rather than paying a bit of attention and getting more models sales. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052213.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:


And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.


Sorry for the double comment on this post but I need to clarify. Nobody bought the Riptide specifically because of how it looked, and if they did they will be fine because guess what? If GW nerfs MC (which they wont) then the riptide will still look exactly the same. It will still look cool. The only people who will be complaining about the nerf are the competitive gamers who relied upon the Riptides OP status to win games for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052214.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.


Sorry for the double comment on this post but I need to clarify. Nobody bought the Riptide specifically because of how it looked, and if they did they will be fine because guess what? If GW nerfs MC (which they wont) then the riptide will still look exactly the same. It will still look cool. The only people who will be complaining about the nerf are the competitive gamers who relied upon the Riptides OP status to win games for them.


That's fair, I suppose. I still think that nerfing them into the ground, so they're no fun with play with, is not the right answer, but nerfing them so they're not so bad to play against would be perfectly fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052219.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs have never been bad, so I don't think it will actually ever happen. It would just amuse me after two editions of getting raped myself. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052223.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.


Sorry for the double comment on this post but I need to clarify. Nobody bought the Riptide specifically because of how it looked, and if they did they will be fine because guess what? If GW nerfs MC (which they wont) then the riptide will still look exactly the same. It will still look cool. The only people who will be complaining about the nerf are the competitive gamers who relied upon the Riptides OP status to win games for them.


That's fair, I suppose. I still think that nerfing them into the ground, so they're no fun with play with, is not the right answer, but nerfing them so they're not so bad to play against would be perfectly fine.


Nobody has proposed nerfing them into the ground. The problem is that every time someone proposes basic nerfs or a points increase that would better reflect the ability of the MC model you have the Tau/Eldar players out in arms about how that would nerf them into the ground. A Riptide and a Wraithknight make every Walker and SHW in the game quake with fear and yet the points difference isn't that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
MCs have never been bad, so I don't think it will actually ever happen. It would just amuse me after two editions of getting raped myself.


Agreed, it would be nice if Eldar/Tau got the Ork/CSM/BA treatment for an edition or three ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052224.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:


And to the people who bought the Riptide because it looks cool? Because I think it's a pretty damn cool model.


Sorry for the double comment on this post but I need to clarify. Nobody bought the Riptide specifically because of how it looked, and if they did they will be fine because guess what? If GW nerfs MC (which they wont) then the riptide will still look exactly the same. It will still look cool. The only people who will be complaining about the nerf are the competitive gamers who relied upon the Riptides OP status to win games for them.


Actually, I bought the Riptide for how it looks, and the R'Varna. They looks awesome, especially for nostalgia as a kid who grew up with Voltron and big stompy robot cartoons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052227.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052228.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you not see Martel saying he'd rejoice in the tears of the players who saw their things destroyed?

And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.


It's maddening how close the BA are to vanilla marines, but yet have nothing from them that makes them any good. It's why I lose my mind when someone brings up ATSKNF or combat squads. Really? In the face of tabling after tabling after tabling? So yeah, I'd like to see some elite codices suffer the same fate at this point. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052236.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
But ATSKNF is a great rule. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052243.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
I'll agree that Combat Squads are not that useful. Better than nothing, but not by much.

But ATSKNF is a great rule. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.


ATSKNF doesn't matter when you're dead. See? You are proving my point. Quit pretending that plan A is not removing every marine from the table, because it's pretty easy without gladius or deathstar. If ATSKNF was actually good, BA wouldn't be the garbage they are. AS it stands now, CSM are better and don't even have ATSKNF. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052249.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you not see Martel saying he'd rejoice in the tears of the players who saw their things destroyed?

And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.


This is fine, maybe still a touch soft. I think riptide should not have access to purchase the FNP personally, as a tau player.

And no, its not to be more resilient against grav, But it makes your lightening claws or powerswords reasonable weapons against it martel. and since you can assault from deep strike with 1 formation, all of a sudden, even with a 4++ or 3++ my ws2 3a isn't so overwhelming.


As for "fixing MC" i think if 8th brings AoS style damage to MC's so they get less effective with more wounds (given they have like 20 wounds so more levels of damage, because causing wounds is easier) is a great start. I agree than a riptide with 4/5 wounds probably isn't operating at 100%]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052252.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 pumaman1 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you not see Martel saying he'd rejoice in the tears of the players who saw their things destroyed?

And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.


This is fine, maybe still a touch soft. I think riptide should not have access to purchase the FNP personally, as a tau player.

And no, its not to be more resilient against grav, But it makes your lightening claws or powerswords reasonable weapons against it martel. and since you can assault from deep strike with 1 formation, all of a sudden, even with a 4++ or 3++ my ws2 3a isn't so overwhelming


Assaulting from deep strike is only viable for CSM. The BA formations are trash because the units that can do it are trash. And will just be intercepted anyway. At least CSM might be able to drown you in cheap Raptors. It's so amazing how the 5th ed super weapon TH/SS terminators became trash in two editions. But they are.

It's not really viable to hack through T6 with power swords and lightning claws. Especially when disordered turns off furious charge. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052255.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Assaulting from deep strike is only viable for CSM. The BA formations are trash because the units that can do it are trash. And will just be intercepted anyway. At least CSM might be able to drown you in cheap Raptors. It's so amazing how the 5th ed super weapon TH/SS terminators became trash in two editions. But they are.

It's not really viable to hack through T6 with power swords and lightning claws. Especially when disordered turns off furious charge.


Why are you disordering your charge?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052267.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you not see Martel saying he'd rejoice in the tears of the players who saw their things destroyed?

And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.


Yep, I read what he said but at this point I see Tau/Eldar players as one of three types of players. 1: WAAC TFG Player who is playing Tau/Eldar because they are the most broken easy to win armies. 2: Players who chose Tau/Eldar not because they loved the faction but because they want to be power gamers and win all the time but they aren't good so they rely upon the rules to give them a leg up. and 3: Players who ACTUALLY like the factions and the fluff and have a large collection instead of the handful of Scatbike/Warpspider/Wraithknight models that the first two types of player have.

If Eldar/Tau got wrecked like CSM, Orks and BA have been for the past few editions I am reasonably sure the first 2 groups of players would buy different armies (thus making GW money) or (Best case for me ) would learn that they are not good at the game and instead relied upon broken rules to make them even remotely competitive.

When I play Eldar and Tau I know I am at a huge disadvantage from the get go. I have out fought and out thought my opponents in most of those battles to the point where I am getting assaults off, surprising his forces, grabbing objectives and what not and I still lose. Why? Because against those armies my orks get deleted at an alarming rate. Have you ever watched two 30 man blobs of boys disappear in a single turn to Eldar shooting? Or watched a Riptide delete your Trukkz/Bikes before they even do anything?

Now on topic, those armies have broken rules but the most horrendous and obvious offending units are the MC and GMCs, specifically for the Tau.

Riptides, Stormsurges, GhostKeels and the lot are just broken OP. Riptides have more durability for a cheaper price then anything in my codex, INCLUDING my stompa!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052270.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052271.page GMT Re:How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 pumaman1 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you not see Martel saying he'd rejoice in the tears of the players who saw their things destroyed?

And here's what I think should be the case:

Wraithknights are fine as-is. At 500 or so points.

Riptides should be 3+/5++, with a nova-charge to give them a 4++.


This is fine, maybe still a touch soft. I think riptide should not have access to purchase the FNP personally, as a tau player.

And no, its not to be more resilient against grav, But it makes your lightening claws or powerswords reasonable weapons against it martel. and since you can assault from deep strike with 1 formation, all of a sudden, even with a 4++ or 3++ my ws2 3a isn't so overwhelming


Assaulting from deep strike is only viable for CSM. The BA formations are trash because the units that can do it are trash. And will just be intercepted anyway. At least CSM might be able to drown you in cheap Raptors.

It's not really viable to hack through T6 with power swords and lightning claws. Especially when disordered turns off furious charge.


Will dc with s5 on the charge and 4 attacks? 5 attacks? if you have 4 of them make it in, thats hitting on 3s, so 15 hits, wounding on 5's so 5 wounds, 2 saved with invuls.. that's pretty good in by book. becuase i am taking a ld test on -2 or 3 so rolling a 7/6 likely to fail, i2, likely to be swept.

but not viable, sure. becuase riptides never scatter, never fail nova, never miss an attack, never fail LD checks, always cause fear on ATSKNF models, always win every circumstance ever always]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052274.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? DC get shot to pieces against Tau long before they ever assault. Quit pretending otherwise. This is exactly the Tau/Eldar failed explanations I'm talking about. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052276.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Because the formation says so. Piece of gak.


The one that has you charging with Terminators? Powerfist or Thunder Hammer equipped Terminators? Who wound on 2s anyway?

Or, hell, with 3 attacks and 2 hits with Lightning Claws, you're still looking at .61 wounds per Terminator, at I4. That's (assuming a 4+ Invuln, like the proposed change is) 16 Terminators to one-shot a Riptide. Sure, that's pricey, but they can do it again next turn, except now they only need 7 Terminators to kill a Riptide, since they have Furious Charge and the bonus attack from Charging.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052277.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because the formation says so. Piece of gak.


The one that has you charging with Terminators? Powerfist or Thunder Hammer equipped Terminators? Who wound on 2s anyway?

Or, hell, with 3 attacks and 2 hits with Lightning Claws, you're still looking at .61 wounds per Terminator, at I4. That's (assuming a 4+ Invuln, like the proposed change is) 16 Terminators to one-shot a Riptide. Sure, that's pricey, but they can do it again next turn, except now they only need 7 Terminators to kill a Riptide, since they have Furious Charge and the bonus attack from Charging.


Yes, useless ass terminators. Overcosted and with no reserve manipulation built into the formation. And no scatter mitigation. You try to use this gak against the Tau and tell me how it works out for you. You deep strike and they push the "delete" button. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052285.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052290.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? SW, it's a suicide trip. The bottom line is that without gladius or invis deathstars, the marines have been passed by by the game. And that's what BA are. Just marines. People bitch and bitch about marine being the poster boys, but 80% of the codex is crap and the rest is only viable because of formations. BA lack these formations and so are 100% crap. SW are good because they can field non-marines. Centurions are good because they aren't marines, either. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052296.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052300.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 TheLumberJack wrote:
Assault from deepstrike would absolutely devastate tau, what are you talking about?


Posts like this make me want to punch the monitor. The entire army is loaded with interceptor, INCLUDING the marker drones. Combine with some clever deployment, and you are looking at a total massacre because we can't consolidate into a new CC. You might as well deep strike you models back into the carrying cases against Tau. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052304.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
DC get shot to pieces against Tau long before they ever assault. Quit pretending otherwise. This is exactly the Tau/Eldar failed explanations I'm talking about.

i dont have to pretend, your formation needs more than 1 unit to deepstrike. i get 1 intercept.. drop 2 units, 1 will make it.

but i forgot, i have infinite intercepting riptides and infinite intercepting markerlights at bs10... 1 is much more pretending than the other.

Current riptide is a problem, proposed 3+/5++ no fnp riptide is much less a problem]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052306.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because the formation says so. Piece of gak.


The one that has you charging with Terminators? Powerfist or Thunder Hammer equipped Terminators? Who wound on 2s anyway?

Or, hell, with 3 attacks and 2 hits with Lightning Claws, you're still looking at .61 wounds per Terminator, at I4. That's (assuming a 4+ Invuln, like the proposed change is) 16 Terminators to one-shot a Riptide. Sure, that's pricey, but they can do it again next turn, except now they only need 7 Terminators to kill a Riptide, since they have Furious Charge and the bonus attack from Charging.


5 DC with a Droppod and Power Swords =210pts, about the same price as a Riptide. Against the riptide they have to survive both the intercepting fire AND the Overwatch which will be deadly. So realistically you need about 8 to guarantee 5 get there. So now you are adding 60pts of bullet stopper models.
EDIT: Forgot to add this 5 DC with Power weapons get 15attacks, 10 hits and wounding on 6s so about 2 wounds on a Riptide. Riptide gets its FNP and Invul so 1 wound......Riptide swings back and will obliterate 1 marine, tied combat.

With that Terminator example, 16 termies with Lighting claws, your looking at 200pts for 5 termies so do the math and terminators are terrible, especially against Tau who have lots of HRoF weapon and AP2. So if you invest 640pts into terminators to remove a single riptide you have already lost the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052308.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052308.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
DC get shot to pieces against Tau long before they ever assault. Quit pretending otherwise. This is exactly the Tau/Eldar failed explanations I'm talking about.

i dont have to pretend, your formation needs more than 1 unit to deepstrike. i get 1 intercept.. drop 2 units, 1 will make it.

but i forgot, i have infinite intercepting riptides and infinite intercepting markerlights at bs10... 1 is much more pretending than the other.

Current riptide is a problem, proposed 3+/5++ no fnp riptide is much less a problem


You're going to cripple the deep striking army when they come in. Stop pretending you aren't. You don't have to kill them all, just make them non-viable going forward in the game. Getting one unit into CC means nothing to a good Tau list. They cut their losses and shoot you to death the next turn. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052310.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
SemperMortis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because the formation says so. Piece of gak.


The one that has you charging with Terminators? Powerfist or Thunder Hammer equipped Terminators? Who wound on 2s anyway?

Or, hell, with 3 attacks and 2 hits with Lightning Claws, you're still looking at .61 wounds per Terminator, at I4. That's (assuming a 4+ Invuln, like the proposed change is) 16 Terminators to one-shot a Riptide. Sure, that's pricey, but they can do it again next turn, except now they only need 7 Terminators to kill a Riptide, since they have Furious Charge and the bonus attack from Charging.


5 DC with a Droppod and Power Swords =210pts, about the same price as a Riptide. Against the riptide they have to survive both the intercepting fire AND the Overwatch which will be deadly. So realistically you need about 8 to guarantee 5 get there. So now you are adding 60pts of bullet stopper models.

With that Terminator example, 16 termies with Lighting claws, your looking at 200pts for 5 termies so do the math and terminators are terrible, especially against Tau who have lots of HRoF weapon and AP2. So if you invest 640pts into terminators to remove a single riptide you have already lost the game.


A single Riptide per turn. Actually, if they all survive (unlikely, I know, but possible) you could be removing two per turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052311.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? CC after their turn. I do the same thing to SW, except that I can't hurt their units in the shooting phase the way Tau can. And the Riptide can tarpit those terminators for multiple turns.

Maybe if the gets hot for the ion accelerator failed on a 1 or 2 or even 1-3 there would be some hope. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052320.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052320.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 JNAProductions wrote:


A single Riptide per turn. Actually, if they all survive (unlikely, I know, but possible) you could be removing two per turn.


But you are forgetting interceptor, Overwatch and the fact that no self respecting Tau player puts its models that close together so your never going to get 2 riptides in a single CC like that. Also on the Tau players turn the BA player will LOSE the majority of those 2+ 5++ Terminators to AP2 weapons and cheap high rate of fire weapons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052326.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052330.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I'm beginning to think a lot of these Tau posters have no idea what they are doing on the tabletop. That's the only explanation for these scenarios they are constructing.


Versus Tau players the deployment is usually;
ME: Trying to get as much cover as possible and move as quick as possible up the field.
Tau: Deploy along the back of the board, keep Pathfinders forward and use Crisis suits or FWs as Chaff/speed bumps in front of the 2-3 Riptides and squad of Missilesides.

Then the game usually goes, Orks move forward, Tau delete 1-3 units. Orks move forward, attempt to assault, get combined overwatched and fail the assault. Tau move back a bit, shoot the hell out of the nearest ork units and win the game.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052343.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? CSM because of the cost of raptors. They can afford to spam and have a couple of mishaps. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052350.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Not to mention that deep striking sucks to begin with. It only works for the CSM because of the cost of raptors. They can afford to spam and have a couple of mishaps.


So the problem lies with your codex then, which no one is going to argue with. What fixes to your codex do you recommend Martel to solve the issues at hand]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052359.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? BA traditionally don't have non-marine units, and those are the only good marine units at this point. BA rely on T4 2+ armor for their elite stuff, and that is a useless defense scheme in 7th. TWC from SW singlehandedly makes my entire codex pointless. What's the fix for that? Write a new game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052364.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I have no idea, honestly. BA traditionally don't have non-marine units, and those are the only good marine units at this point. BA rely on T4 2+ armor for their elite stuff, and that is a useless defense scheme in 7th. TWC from SW singlehandedly makes my entire codex pointless. What's the fix for that? Write a new game.
...or fix the BA codex? Or play a different army?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052370.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 andysonic1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I have no idea, honestly. BA traditionally don't have non-marine units, and those are the only good marine units at this point. BA rely on T4 2+ armor for their elite stuff, and that is a useless defense scheme in 7th. TWC from SW singlehandedly makes my entire codex pointless. What's the fix for that? Write a new game.
...or fix the BA codex? Or play a different army?


I just pointed out that I have played them for 20 years and I have no idea how to fix this mess. One might give them telepathy, but they have no libby conclave, nor any units worth making invisible.

Play a different army: the GW-approved answer.

Vehicles being a dumpster fire doesn't help either. Yes, vehicles were a crutch in 5th, but the pendulum has swung way too far. The only good vehicles are the free ones from Gladius, and Gladius gets LOT of hate. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052375.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I'm beginning to think a lot of these Tau posters have no idea what they are doing on the tabletop. That's the only explanation for these scenarios they are constructing.


All of us play the game. We fight various armies, in various terrain set ups, in various game types.

If the models are far enough away they can't both be charged, then they can't both overwatch. If they both overwatch, they can't overwatch the 2nd unit. If they intercept, they might scatter off, roughly 1/2 the time they will scatter enough to miss your entire unit (2/3 scatter, avg 7 means scatters 4"), 1/3 the time they will get direct hit. Its not guaranteed, but its a strategy that you dont like becuase i have infinite resources in your argument with perfect LOS on all of it (markerlights ignore cover, but no los, intercept you still need LOS, so 2nd unit might not be able to intercept). You are pretending circumstances just as hard.

That said, riptide as is, is too strong, which is why the 3+ 5/4++ no FNP was the proposed one which makes you more effective.

anyway.. now that this is a "boo, waah, riptides touched my mother, insulted my dog, and looks funny" thread.... any other CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on how to resolve MC vs Vehicles?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052379.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs way more expensive if you want to keep the current rules. There is no way a tri-las pred is worth 140 pts or whatever it is. I guess you could make vehicles/walkers much cheaper as well. A tri-las pred in 7th MIGHT be worth 100 pts. MAYBE.

" but its a strategy that you dont like becuase i have infinite resources in your argument"

Tau have more than enough resources to cripple a tiny deep striking BA army relying on 2+ armor. I already stated the raptors from CSM can be more of a problem because of target saturation. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052381.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
...Rewrite the game...


Alternately: Set the core rules to some kind of fixed standard and iterate through the Codexes within that so you can actually fix something instead of making a wild leap off onto a new set of strange and interesting problems of the sort that come with poorly-considered broad sweeping changes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052388.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052454.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? ADL with cheap infantry bubble-wrapping his tanks and artillery. Leadership is meaningless against them because he attaches Priests to his infantry blobs. The artillery makes fielding foot units futile. Can't pod close enough to the big sticks to get the bonus armor pen dice with melta due to the bubble wrap.

For that and other reasons, Whirlwinds started trickling into my lists. I don't think they really do that much damage, but my IG buddy says they're terrifying. I also really enjoy my Sicarian with HB sponsons - really throws a lot of dakka downfield for a reasonable price. Plus it's Fast, so I can move it and shoot effectively.

I got some more FW goodies to give a try. I'm optimistic about the quad mortar - I'd just use a Thunderfire cannon, but I play Dark Angels, so no can has. I also got a Scorpius pattern Whirlwind, so I'm looking forward to throwing some S8 barrage counter-battery fire at his artillery tanks. I want to see if I can compel him to make lists that come out of his deployment zone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052458.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know what Blood Angels need and it fits with their fluff.
Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.


Good idea, let's make it even more a rocket tag game!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052471.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs (dreads, orkanaughts, etc) or Infantry (Sentinels, War Walkers, Ironstriders, etc). However, that would also require adjusting the base MC rules some and doing some retuning.

As a shorter quick-and-dirty patch, I'd suggest the following few things:

Smash confers AP3 in melee (unless the weapon is naturally better than that), unless you use the "single attack at Sx2" option. That can keep AP2. No Rending normally, that'd make them too effective against tanks.

Walkers gain Smash.
Walkers gain Move Through Cover.

The following MCs gain a "Strength user, AP2" melee weapon: Daemon Prince, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change, Carnifex, Haruspex, Toxicrene, Mawloc, Trygon, Trygon Prime.

I'd probably combine that with granting all vehicles an armor save - usually a 4+, 3+ on most Tanks, 2+ on some especially tough units. I'd probably also make Extra Armour grant -1 on the damage table instead of just treating Stunned as Shaken. Imperial and Chaos vehicles would gain access to Auxiliary Drive Systems that convert Immobilized to Crew Stunned. (Not as good as 30k. Hey, they're worn out!). Orks might get something like that too. Eldar, Tau, Necrons and DE have Jink and/or other shenanigans.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052475.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know what Blood Angels need and it fits with their fluff.
Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.


Good idea, let's make it even more a rocket tag game!


This is why I honestly can't think of an acceptable fix. What's the fix to T4 3+/5+++ being fragile?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know what Blood Angels need and it fits with their fluff.
Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.


We do. It's just often inferior to the regular GW stuff now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052480.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MCs/GMCs which shouldn't be back in to walkers.
*cough* riptides/wraithknights *cough*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052496.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know what Blood Angels need and it fits with their fluff.
Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.


Good idea, let's make it even more a rocket tag game!


This is why I honestly can't think of an acceptable fix. What's the fix to T4 3+/5+++ being fragile?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I know what Blood Angels need and it fits with their fluff.
Dreadnought with blessed halo for an extra 50 points.
Blessed halo gives it a 3++ and the ability to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves. 50 points is basically a combination of the SW storm shield dread and the Lucius Drop Pod.
I'm guessing Martel's group doesn't really use FW stuff so lets hope it doesn't wind up in the same pile as the Lucius Drop Pods.


We do. It's just often inferior to the regular GW stuff now.


Do I hear an Eldar player griping about stupidly costly deepstrike units? Hide behind your undercosted Wraithknight, you'll be fine.

@Martel, the Lucius is still the best way of deploying Dreads, that's how I deal with Tau. Yes I use TWC but TWC works because the Lucius pods wear the EWO fire then the Dreads step out of the wreckage and burn off the smallfire units like Fire Warriors and Drones that actually kill TWC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052509.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

@Martel, the Lucius is still the best way of deploying Dreads, that's how I deal with Tau. Yes I use TWC but TWC works because the Lucius pods wear the EWO fire then the Dreads step out of the wreckage and burn off the smallfire units like Fire Warriors and Drones that actually kill TWC.

All I want for Christmas is a leviathan <3]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052518.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? FW is a rabbit hole i haven't gone down yet. I'm not necessarily opposed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052544.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
FW is a rabbit hole i haven't gone down yet. I'm not necessarily opposed.

FW go a long way to "fix" alot of the walkers.
Mortis contemptors and Leviathans to name a few.

Slightly off topic here, but my Death Guard has no Forge World in it, my Minotaurs are pretty much all Forge World except for 10 tac marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052554.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052557.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? DA Dark Talon ahead of them in the pipeline.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052560.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
A sea monster?

Join the Leviathan Owners Club™ today!
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Leviathan-Pattern-Siege-Dreadnought-Body]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052565.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? tbh. Still too fragile.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052567.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
I'm not that impressed with the mortis or the leviathan, tbh. Still too fragile.

Yes I know what you are saying, the Leviathan can carve up a whole army, or die to a few shots.
Vehicle rules just need an overhaul, the explodes result etc. just doesn't fit anymore in my opinion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052586.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052586.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Rippy wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

@Martel, the Lucius is still the best way of deploying Dreads, that's how I deal with Tau. Yes I use TWC but TWC works because the Lucius pods wear the EWO fire then the Dreads step out of the wreckage and burn off the smallfire units like Fire Warriors and Drones that actually kill TWC.

All I want for Christmas is a leviathan <3


Classy choice.
Hope you were extra nice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052587.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm not that impressed with the mortis or the leviathan, tbh. Still too fragile.

Yes I know what you are saying, the Leviathan can carve up a whole army, or die to a few shots.
Vehicle rules just need an overhaul, the explodes result etc. just doesn't fit anymore in my opinion.


We showed above that 40 lascannon shots only have a 50% chance to down a riptide. Clocking in at double the cost, what hope does the leviathan have vs 40 lascannons?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052590.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm not that impressed with the mortis or the leviathan, tbh. Still too fragile.

Yes I know what you are saying, the Leviathan can carve up a whole army, or die to a few shots.
Vehicle rules just need an overhaul, the explodes result etc. just doesn't fit anymore in my opinion.


We showed above that 40 lascannon shots only have a 50% chance to down a riptide. Clocking in at double the cost, what hope does the leviathan have vs 40 lascannons?

We have established that the wraithknight is over powered.
Doesn't mean the Leviathan is under powered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052799.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052818.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I face kind of similar problems when I play against my friend's Imperial Guard. He castles up behind an ADL with cheap infantry bubble-wrapping his tanks and artillery. Leadership is meaningless against them because he attaches Priests to his infantry blobs. The artillery makes fielding foot units futile. Can't pod close enough to the big sticks to get the bonus armor pen dice with melta due to the bubble wrap.

For that and other reasons, Whirlwinds started trickling into my lists. I don't think they really do that much damage, but my IG buddy says they're terrifying. I also really enjoy my Sicarian with HB sponsons - really throws a lot of dakka downfield for a reasonable price. Plus it's Fast, so I can move it and shoot effectively.

I got some more FW goodies to give a try. I'm optimistic about the quad mortar - I'd just use a Thunderfire cannon, but I play Dark Angels, so no can has. I also got a Scorpius pattern Whirlwind, so I'm looking forward to throwing some S8 barrage counter-battery fire at his artillery tanks. I want to see if I can compel him to make lists that come out of his deployment zone.


Too bad you cant bring a Virus Grenade eh?

I don't know why off the top of my head, but those battles sound fun. I like having a go at cracking castles like that. IMO the Triple Whirlwind squadron is insanely nasty against blobs with its re-rolls to wound and Ignores Cover. Drop Pods with the missile upgrade is a fun one too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052840.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's about right. But it's less durable than an IK. That sets off warning bells to me.

Rule of cool has it covered also ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052920.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's about right. But it's less durable than an IK. That sets off warning bells to me.

Rule of cool has it covered also


Especially in Blood Angels colours.
If nothing else the Vampires Marines got a sweet colour scheme.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052931.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's about right. But it's less durable than an IK. That sets off warning bells to me.

Rule of cool has it covered also


Especially in Blood Angels colours.
If nothing else the Vampires Marines got a sweet colour scheme.

I think they would look a lot nicer in Minotaurs Bronze. But I am off topic.

I think things like Leviathans and Mortis contemptors would be way over the top as an MC.

If they got rid of the vehicle damage table (at least explodes), changed the MCs which should be walkers in to walkers (ridtides/wraithknights), and removed things like stomp from MCs, they would all be alot more balanced out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9052976.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue? MC. "

Why? We already have them. Riptides and Wraithknights. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053009.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Rippy wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it's about right. But it's less durable than an IK. That sets off warning bells to me.

Rule of cool has it covered also


Especially in Blood Angels colours.
If nothing else the Vampires Marines got a sweet colour scheme.

I think they would look a lot nicer in Minotaurs Bronze. But I am off topic.

I think things like Leviathans and Mortis contemptors would be way over the top as an MC.



If they got rid of the vehicle damage table (at least explodes), changed the MCs which should be walkers in to walkers (ridtides/wraithknights), and removed things like stomp from MCs, they would all be alot more balanced out.


I agree completely but have you ever tried convincing Tau and Eldar players these things are mechanical? I've seen people turn from their religion with less proof.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053091.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I face kind of similar problems when I play against my friend's Imperial Guard. He castles up behind an ADL with cheap infantry bubble-wrapping his tanks and artillery. Leadership is meaningless against them because he attaches Priests to his infantry blobs. The artillery makes fielding foot units futile. Can't pod close enough to the big sticks to get the bonus armor pen dice with melta due to the bubble wrap.

For that and other reasons, Whirlwinds started trickling into my lists. I don't think they really do that much damage, but my IG buddy says they're terrifying. I also really enjoy my Sicarian with HB sponsons - really throws a lot of dakka downfield for a reasonable price. Plus it's Fast, so I can move it and shoot effectively.

I got some more FW goodies to give a try. I'm optimistic about the quad mortar - I'd just use a Thunderfire cannon, but I play Dark Angels, so no can has. I also got a Scorpius pattern Whirlwind, so I'm looking forward to throwing some S8 barrage counter-battery fire at his artillery tanks. I want to see if I can compel him to make lists that come out of his deployment zone.


Too bad you cant bring a Virus Grenade eh?

I don't know why off the top of my head, but those battles sound fun. I like having a go at cracking castles like that. IMO the Triple Whirlwind squadron is insanely nasty against blobs with its re-rolls to wound and Ignores Cover. Drop Pods with the missile upgrade is a fun one too.


They are quite fun. He and I routinely have close games. We play with some house rules - No Allies, 40% Troops, psykers can't take power dice from other psykers. Done a good job keeping our group's games pretty balanced.

I've considered the triple Whirlwind, but it seems like too many points for not enough return. Plus, keeping three AV11 boxes alive even with decent terrain coverage seems like a tricky proposition at best. That's why I picked up a quad mortar - based on the Wyvern, 4 small blasts beats 1 large one any day of the week. I'm also hoping Scorpius trumps Wyvern, and between the two of them makes castling up untenable, or at least less reliable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9053096.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
jade_angel wrote:
Personally, I would favor removing the "walker" type altogether and converting them all into MCs (dreads, orkanaughts, etc) or Infantry (Sentinels, War Walkers, Ironstriders, etc). However, that would also require adjusting the base MC rules some and doing some retuning.

As a shorter quick-and-dirty patch, I'd suggest the following few things:

Smash confers AP3 in melee (unless the weapon is naturally better than that), unless you use the "single attack at Sx2" option. That can keep AP2. No Rending normally, that'd make them too effective against tanks.

Walkers gain Smash.
Walkers gain Move Through Cover.

The following MCs gain a "Strength user, AP2" melee weapon: Daemon Prince, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change, Carnifex, Haruspex, Toxicrene, Mawloc, Trygon, Trygon Prime.

I'd probably combine that with granting all vehicles an armor save - usually a 4+, 3+ on most Tanks, 2+ on some especially tough units. I'd probably also make Extra Armour grant -1 on the damage table instead of just treating Stunned as Shaken. Imperial and Chaos vehicles would gain access to Auxiliary Drive Systems that convert Immobilized to Crew Stunned. (Not as good as 30k. Hey, they're worn out!). Orks might get something like that too. Eldar, Tau, Necrons and DE have Jink and/or other shenanigans.


The problem with that is that Walkers don't need Smash...ever. The handful of models that would benefit from gaining smash is Dwarfed by the huge number of models that already have a high strength AP2 CCW. From my own perspective as an Ork player this wouldn't benefit me at all, the move through cover would but smash...not so much. Kanz, Dreadz and Naughts already have a DCCW, What they don't have is enough attacks. And KillaKanz just suck in general except as a crappy platform for Grotzookas. (low initiative, low WS, only S7)

What Walker need is to stay relevant is a bit of the rule that MC benefit from (Cover), increased speed. At least 12inch movement to reflect their stature, they are usually a lot bigger then infantry but just as slow? They need Move through Cover, better Primary damage output, if they are ranged, they need more ranged damage, if they are CC they need more CC damage.

As far as Armor saves? I don't think they need them desperately except for certain types. It doesn't make sense to have a fragile vehicle in CC that doesn't have at least a 4+ invul save. So give them a CC Invul save. Ranged don't need this as much because they can take advantage of cover.

Failing all of that the only useful thing I can think of is a rather large price cut. I would love to see 4th edition Killa Kanz come back, 35pts a model instead of 50, I would like Dreadz to be both cheaper and their upgrades to be cheaper. And the Naughts...they are about 75pts over priced for what little they can actually do. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9058891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9058891.page GMT How do we fix the Walker vs Monstrous Creature issue?
Since this is 7th edition crazy 40K, each army should have whole squads of guys with 2++ re-rollable invulnerable saves ...all armed with Vortex grenades, jump packs and grav weapons.

Because 40K.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9059003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/709609/9059003.page GMT