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 axisofentropy wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The answer for me is to just make vehicles into MCs. Having separate rules for vehicles is fine in a smaller game, but 40k is getting to complicated for it, and seriously needs some streamlining.

this should and will almost certainly happen next year.

I feel that simply "making them MCs" would make vehicles extremely more powerful than the current MCs. What would an imp knight be? WS/BS4 T8-9 with 360 arc of fire and a 4++ and FnP? Grav wouldn't touch it and it's guns are perfect for wrecking units that are packing autowound or instant death spam which are usually infantry, but now in every direction. Basically, D weapons become your only real fear. How bout land raiders becoming T10 boxes? It'd pretty uneventful to watch my s10 ap1 nuetron laser put a single wound on it... Or dreadnoughts being t7-8 with storm shields...

" It'd pretty uneventful to watch my s10 ap1 nuetron laser put a single wound on it... Or dreadnoughts being t7-8 with storm shields.."

Welcome to what fighting MCs is already like.

IKs are a joke as they are currently priced and implemented. Especially compared to the god-like GMCs.

A riptide can absorb more meltaguns and lascannons than a WARHOUND TITAN. Think about that a minute.

But on that same note, I've one shot a hierodule with 3 grav kataphrons, and dropped multiple wraithknights with only vanguard. Why would someone fire a lascanon at a high toughness model? To put a wound on it? What a waste IMO. So many tools exist to deal with MCs.

Again, I'm not saying MCs are weak, but it's really an apples to oranges comparison.

There are practically no tools to deal with MCs cost effectively. Cost effectively being the operating phrase.

There's grav. And..... what? MCs and GMCs have god-like points efficiency in 40K because they don't have a damage table, can't immobilize themselves and can't be IDed by most lists

There is literally no role for low AP, low ROF weapons in 7th ed. Vehicles get HPed out by medium str, high ROF and MCs are basically immune to these weapons.

Oh, and MCs ignore all armor in melee because reasons.

But what identical roles do walkers and MCs share that are hindered by a vehicle damage table?

Grav, Skitarii Vanguard (Radium Carbines ROCK!), Rending Lasguns (through Misfortune-pairs well with Monster Hunter from Orders), massed Poison fire, massed Sniper fire...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Grav, Skitarii Vanguard (Radium Carbines ROCK!), Rending Lasguns (through Misfortune-pairs well with Monster Hunter from Orders), massed Poison fire, massed Sniper fire...

That's actually an incredibly short list compared to anti-vehicle options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nelson Mechanized wrote:
But what identical roles do walkers and MCs share that are hindered by a vehicle damage table?

Living?

It's a lot longer than you listed. Think outside the box, Martel.

Not really. It really isn't. Not COST EFFECTIVE options. You can't fight them in melee efficiently. They all get armor saves vs autocannons, heavy bolters. They don't care about lascannon, melta. They basically laugh off my entire codex. Then you've got TWC, which is a unit of MCs.

Okay. Riptide is, what, 220 points? With a few upgrades?

That's 2 max squads of Skitarii Vanguard with Omnispexes. They put out 60 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling to 5s, for 53.33 hits. That's 17.78 wounds, or 2.96 past its armour save. So, point for point, Vanguard can't one-turn kill a Riptide. But guess what? They don't need to. They can take more than one turn, since the Riptide can't kill them all in one turn.

That's a very specific solution in a very specific codex. The riptide laughs at 95% of the Imperial armory. It's literally the worst offender; even worse than the WK which is at least a GMC.

That Riptide could be melting your other units, other more optimal targets. Riptide also beats most of my units in CC by virtue of being immortal. The Riptide laughs at my entire codex. Not a fun feeling.

So tie it up in CC. It has 3 attacks at WS2. 10 Marines will tie it up for around...

Well, let's see. 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wound. That's 8 turns of combat it's tied up for.

But wait! You play Blood Angels! You have that one thing that lets you increase their WS by 1! (The Grail or something?) Toss that thing in there, and your WS5 marines are now hit on 5s!

It now has 3 attacks, 1 hit, .83 wound. That's now 12 turns it's tied up for!

Edit: Name one thing in the Skitarii Codex scarier than Vanguard. One thing. I dare you.

Oh, and also, your 10 Marines might be about 2/3rds his points cost, but they probably have Objective Secured, while he doesn't. Tie him up on an objective and watch the Tau player weep.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So tie it up in CC. It has 3 attacks at WS2. 10 Marines will tie it up for around...

Well, let's see. 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 wound. That's 8 turns of combat it's tied up for.

But wait! You play Blood Angels! You have that one thing that lets you increase their WS by 1! (The Grail or something?) Toss that thing in there, and your WS5 marines are now hit on 5s!

It now has 3 attacks, 1 hit, .83 wound. That's now 12 turns it's tied up for!

So it defacto kills one more unit via tarpit after blasting my list for 2-3 turns if I'm lucky? BA can not win at that rate. It's a tabling for sure. The priest alone is half the cost of the Riptide almost.

Fine. Then use Grav-you have it after Angel's Blade.

But please, for the love of the Emperor, stop whining.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fine. Then use Grav-you have it after Angel's Blade.

But please, for the love of the Emperor, stop whining.

BA can't bring enough grav to even make a Riptide notice. We don't have centurions. The devs are easily killed before they get within range. Actually, the whole list is pretty easily killed by Tau before it gets within range. Have you played against Tau? Or MCs at all?

I've played against Tau with Daemons. Specifically, Nurgle Daemons.

And use Drop Pods. You don't have the Skyhammer, but it only takes 16.4 grav shots at BS4 to kill them if you get first turn (two squads of Devastators) or if they decide they want to try Nova-Charging literally anything other than shields.

Drop pods vs Tau is suicide. Even for skyhammer. The true counter to Tau is just accept that you can't outfight them and use gladius and win by horde tactics. But BA don't have the gladius, and 400 pts of free obj sec transports being necessary to even the scales vs MCs is my whole point.

There is no reason to ever nova charge anything other than shields. Another design flaw with the Riptide. Of course, when you've got all the MC rules working for you, it helps. A lot.

Riptide is a 300 pt model. At least.

If that was it, then they'd be the top army in every tourney. But, they're not.

*Sigh...*

Martel, do me (and yourself) a favor. Stop playing with your current group. They clearly are on a different level than you, bringing tournament level lists while you bring your BA (which are not top-tier. I'll agree with you there) so just do EVERYONE a favor and find a group that's more on your level.

More on topic, I'd be fine giving (most) Walkers Smash. That'd even the playing field considerably.

I'd also be fine with vice-versa. Removing Smash from some Monstrous Creatures. Daemon Princes should probably keep Smash, for instance, since they're CC murder machines. Ripdtides, though? Not so much.

Just because Riptide is severely undercosted, doesn't mean other undercosted combos don't exist. This usually involves broken psychic powers or other undercosted MC-like units like TWC.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
*Sigh...*

Martel, do me (and yourself) a favor. Stop playing with your current group. They clearly are on a different level than you, bringing tournament level lists while you bring your BA (which are not top-tier. I'll agree with you there) so just do EVERYONE a favor and find a group that's more on your level.

More on topic, I'd be fine giving (most) Walkers Smash. That'd even the playing field considerably.

I'd also be fine with vice-versa. Removing Smash from some Monstrous Creatures. Daemon Princes should probably keep Smash, for instance, since they're CC murder machines. Ripdtides, though? Not so much.

They'd still be immortal infinite tarpits in CC, though. After intercepting and melting expensive units without having to nova charge their gun. They are more durable that Warhound Titans. There's no small tweak you can do to fix this. I can't believe I have to say more than "more durable than Warhound Titan".

My group is largely not the point here. MCs are busted across the board compared to vehicles. Vehicles have practically no redeeming features. There is no group I can find where MCs won't laugh me off the table.

How about instead of taking away AP2 from Monstrous Creatures we give it to Walkers as well. I'd find it hard to believe that even a Sentinel can't crush a Marine with its big feet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How about instead of taking away AP2 from Monstrous Creatures we give it to Walkers as well. I'd find it hard to believe that even a Sentinel can't crush a Marine with its big feet.

We need less AP2 in melee, not more.

Wait is someone trying to defend the riptide again?

Just stop. It's solid "top 10 most broken units in the game" material, and it is near the top of the list. By the time you manage to get a squad to tie the thing up and stop it from deleting units from across the table, the damage has been done, and losing yet another unit to tie it up is even more loss piled on. Removing it from relevance without paying well over its point cost for the unit or units that do it is an extremely rare event. This is as opposed to say...a barebones dreadnought that is very likely to either be rendered useless or outright killed from a single shot from a 10 point meltagun.

Do you really think that the tau players at tournaments who show up hoping to get into the upper tables are going to spend half their points on riptides if they weren't one of the best units accessible to them?

I think it would be appropriate to make Smash AP 4 and Rending rather than straight up AP 2, to parallel the AP 4 and removal-on-a-six of SHW/GMC stomp attacks.

I also think giving Walkers Smash would be appropriate.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Wait is someone trying to defend the riptide again?

Just stop. It's solid "top 10 most broken units in the game" material, and it is near the top of the list. By the time you manage to get a squad to tie the thing up and stop it from deleting units from across the table, the damage has been done, and losing yet another unit to tie it up is even more loss piled on. Removing it from relevance without paying well over its point cost for the unit or units that do it is an extremely rare event. This is as opposed to say...a barebones dreadnought that is very likely to either be rendered useless or outright killed from a single shot from a 10 point meltagun.

Do you really think that the tau players at tournaments who show up hoping to get into the upper tables are going to spend half their points on riptides if they weren't one of the best units accessible to them?

They never stop. It's like math is a completely foreign concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I think it would be appropriate to make Smash AP 4 and Rending rather than straight up AP 2, to parallel the AP 4 and removal-on-a-six of SHW/GMC stomp attacks.

I also think giving Walkers Smash would be appropriate.

Giving them that smash would be fine. Especially with how often they won't get to use it.

As a point of interest, I played my GT winning msu horde gladius against a 5-tide spam plus ghostkeels at a recent event and lost, and he came far closer to tabling me than any army ever has since the formation has existed. I had like...a Culexus and a couple pods left at the end of 7.

As I said, Riptide is a 300 pt model because of its durability. Don't want that to be mathematically true? Make it less durable.

At this point, my plan A would be just to make MCs appropriately costed and accept that vehicles are mostly trash.

Guys can we keep it civil, please

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Even the lightest of vehicles in the game have an AV of no less than 10, and most vehicles are higher than that (depending on faction). The Toughness equivalent to AV 10 would be 6, and the vast majority of MC are either at or below that T value.

T6!=AV10.

I've always considered T8 3+ save to be equivilent to AV12 because of the Eldar Dreadnought/Wraithlord in the 3rd ed codex. In 2nd it had an armour value equivilent to an Imperial Dreadnought if I remember, but I do not know what it had in the 3rd ed rulebook errata lists.

That would make T6=AV10