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Space wolves have real assault units, not pretend assault units. A unit of TWC can plow through an entire tyranid list. Sure, I can do okay if I tailor for Tyranids, but if I don't, the MCs are going to wreck my list.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking

It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.

Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength

I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess.

What if it was something like: If Str is 3 more than opponents toughness, strips 2 wounds. If it is 4 more, strips 3 wounds. This would mean the only way to one shot AV10(or T6 if vehicles get a toughness) would be to bring strength 10 weapons. Or instead of multiple wounds, you get the ability to roll multiple dice to wound

That's a really, really terrible rule for balance. You're effectively giving Instant Death to all high strength weapons. Do you want Plasma Guns to deal two wounds to Space Marines? Or heck, you can now Instant Death T5 with S9 and T6 with S10, except in the rare cases where models have four wounds, in which case you're just *nearly* killing them.

Lascannons don't suck because they fire just one shot, they suck because they're too expensive and don't have a specific job to do. Meltaguns just fire one shot, but they're awesome because they're dedicated and relatively cheap.
Or, to put it another way: Meltaguns kill tanks vastly better than Lascannons ever could. (Unless that tank has Armored Ceramite and AV14, I guess.) Plasmaguns kill 2+ armor better than Lascannons, at least most of the time. Grav-Guns deal with both tanks and armor better than Lascannons with RoF.

Lascannons and melta are both miserable vs mcs.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Fair enough, I see the error in my thinking

It all circles back to lascannons, heavy rail rifles, hammerhead rail gun, etc all being junk. Because they aren't efficient vs MCs and can't reliably kill vehicles, either.

Well I think the only way to make those weapons efficient is they need the ability to strip multiple wounds if they are high enough strength

I agree with that. Although they need to be made more desirable vs vehicles as well. It's a massive mess.

What if it was something like: If Str is 3 more than opponents toughness, strips 2 wounds. If it is 4 more, strips 3 wounds. This would mean the only way to one shot AV10(or T6 if vehicles get a toughness) would be to bring strength 10 weapons. Or instead of multiple wounds, you get the ability to roll multiple dice to wound

That's a really, really terrible rule for balance. You're effectively giving Instant Death to all high strength weapons. Do you want Plasma Guns to deal two wounds to Space Marines? Or heck, you can now Instant Death T5 with S9 and T6 with S10, except in the rare cases where models have four wounds, in which case you're just *nearly* killing them.

Lascannons don't suck because they fire just one shot, they suck because they're too expensive and don't have a specific job to do. Meltaguns just fire one shot, but they're awesome because they're dedicated and relatively cheap.
Or, to put it another way: Meltaguns kill tanks vastly better than Lascannons ever could. (Unless that tank has Armored Ceramite and AV14, I guess.) Plasmaguns kill 2+ armor better than Lascannons, at least most of the time. Grav-Guns deal with both tanks and armor better than Lascannons with RoF.

I've seen the idea for this kind of rule come from many different people on here, it's not something that just I think is a good idea. Hell even Martel agreed

It's much easier to just give very devastating single shot weapons two wounds inflicted per wound cleared. Against any target, including eternal warriors. And make the Hammerhead a D weapon. Lascannon to the face should hurt, not be a joke.

The current edition has not been kind to lascannons. Time was, a single lascannon shot stood a pretty decent chance of taking out any vehicle in the game, and multiple lascannons were pretty terrifying. But that was when half the results on the Penetrating Hits table destroyed a vehicle, and a 6 on the Glancing Hit table also was a Destroyed result.

That was also a time of conditional toughness modifiers, where bikers toughness was still considered the same as their non-mounted equivalents for purposes of Instant Death - so hopping on a bike didn't protect one's SM characters from instant death via lascannon.

The problem with lascannons in Imperial armies is that the platforms for them mostly came into being in 2nd ed, and the rules for those platforms have not aged well, requiring the platform to be mostly static. That's why Forge World vehicles are usually better than the ones we get from the codex - their rules were developed with the current realities of the game in mind, as opposed to being set editions ago and not being adapted well.

I can't remember the last time I found a regular power weapon to be an effective upgrade. I don't think I ever considered a regular power weapon to be good enough for an IC, going all the way back to 3rd edition. They're not particularly good on sergeants either, because they don't have enough attacks, even if you pay the additional 10pts to make them a Veteran. Lightning claws are a little better, but these days a close combat weapon upgrade on a character needs to both increase the strength of the wielder and bypass armor saves to be considered worthwhile. Plus, going at initiative is a big plus. My current preferred upgrade is the Mace of Redemption, all day every day.

Martel732 wrote:
It's much easier to just give very devastating single shot weapons two wounds inflicted per wound cleared. Against any target, including eternal warriors. And make the Hammerhead a D weapon. Lascannon to the face should hurt, not be a joke.

I am highly against making the Hammerhead a D-weapon. Ranged D should be incredibly rare and expensive, not one BS3 shot per around 100 points (with a BS that can be improved by Markerlights).

That's part of why Wraithknights are so OP-they've got 2 ranged D shots for under 300 points. (Among other reasons, of course.)

Edit: Multiple wounds from powerful weapons is okay with me, though. Although I might make Eternal Warrior resist that.

I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.

Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!

Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.

50 Lascannons, at BS4.

33.33 hits.

27.78 wounds.

9.26 past the 3+ Invuln.

6.17 past the 5+ FNP.

Martel, don't exaggerate. (Give me a moment to calculate the odds of actually failing to take it out.)

You have a 24.46% chance of NOT taking out the Riptide with 50 Lascannons at BS4.

Edit: Assuming it has a 3+ Invuln and FNP. Drop either of those, and the odds change considerably.

Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.

The math doesn't add up.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can shoot a Riptide with 50 lascannons and not reliably take it out.

50 Lascannons, at BS4.

33.33 hits.

27.78 wounds.

9.26 past the 3+ Invuln.

6.17 past the 5+ FNP.

Martel, don't exaggerate. (Give me a moment to calculate the odds of actually failing to take it out.)

You have a 24.46% chance of NOT taking out the Riptide with 50 Lascannons at BS4.

The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed". The fact that we had to run numbers on 50 lascannons is nuts. If we go down to 40 lascannons, there is only a 50/50 shot.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!

Str D should be limited to apocalypse if possible, but if not, should be limited to Super Heavies and Gargantuans. And yes, with the rule I made a str 9 lascannon would do 2 wounds to a T6 riptide

Martel732 wrote:
The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed".

Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game of dice.

More than that, that's assuming the Riptide both has Stimulant Injectors and nova-charged their shielding, neither of which are guaranteed. Do you want the odds without those?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The fact that it's that close is vomit-inducing. What I said was true, if we change "reliably" to " guaranteed".

Nothing is ever guaranteed in a game of dice.

More than that, that's assuming the Riptide both has Stimulant Injectors and nova-charged their shielding, neither of which are guaranteed. Do you want the odds without those?

No, but those things are what we must assume given a good Tau player. Even further, you will never get 40 or even 20 lascannon shots on a singe riptide in a game anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

Given the size of the hammerhead railgun, it should have been D from the get go. No 40K level tank would survive even a grazing hit from that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah I'm not for the inclusion of strength D, I think it is too much for normal games. But yes Martel I agree something like a lascannon should do two wounds of damage

That gets us down to 25 lascannons against the Riptide! Yippee!

Str D should be limited to apocalypse if possible, but if not, should be limited to Super Heavies and Gargantuans. And yes, with the rule I made a str 9 lascannon would do 2 wounds to a T6 riptide

I disagree. I think the Hammerhead is more deserving that some super heavies.

Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.

Or dice rolls don't go in their favor

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.

I'm talking about the woes of the lascannon/multimelta/meltagun here. Not grav. Low ROF, low AP. MCs make these weapons very unattractive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then I'll assume you're packing Grav, like a good Imperium player, or an Invisible Death Star.

Not everyone plays to the cheesiest they can, and even when they do, players make mistakes.

Or dice rolls don't go in their favor

The die rolls can just as easily go in their favor and push the number well above 50. This is a non-argument.

Take advantage of the times when it doesn't. Don't shoot at Riptides with AP2 weaponry unless they fail their nova-charge, or nova-charge something besides the shields.

Tactics.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Take advantage of the times when it doesn't. Don't shoot at Riptides with AP2 weaponry unless they fail their nova-charge, or nova-charge something besides the shields.

Tactics.

I don't have time for that. My army melts waiting from them to blow a shield roll. You don't think I could have thought of that?

This conversation is such a joke when you look at the fact that any given single shot can render a vehicle destroyed or crippled, but MCs fight on like nothing happened. We're throwing around numbers of lascannons that would down Warhound titans.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Take advantage of the times when it doesn't. Don't shoot at Riptides with AP2 weaponry unless they fail their nova-charge, or nova-charge something besides the shields.

Tactics.

I don't have time for that. My army melts waiting from them to blow a shield roll. You don't think I could have thought of that?

Let's assume they bring a Riptide Wing, with the minimum of 3 Riptides. First off, that's half their army right there. Second off, they have a 29.77% chance of one failing each turn. That's a 50.67% chance one fails by turn 2, and a 65.36% chance by turn 3.

Not to mention the chance you get turn one, in which case, they CANNOT have shields up.

Edit: Oh, I definitely agree that MCs need a nerf or Vehicles need a buff. (Preferably a small nerf to MCs and a big buff to Vehicles, for me personally.)

After 6th and 7th, i kinda want to see mcs burn rules-wise.

Martel732 wrote:
After 6th and 7th, i kinda want to see mcs burn rules-wise.

That's just being bitter. I do agree, Vehicles need to be on par, point for point, to Monstrous Creatures. But think about how much it stinks playing with something that's not good against something that is. While it might be sadistically satisfying to do so, it's for the betterment of the hobby and the community if NO ONE has to deal with that.

Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.

SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.

Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix

SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.

I don't play Tau or Eldar.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
After 6th and 7th, i kinda want to see mcs burn rules-wise.

That's just being bitter. I do agree, Vehicles need to be on par, point for point, to Monstrous Creatures. But think about how much it stinks playing with something that's not good against something that is. While it might be sadistically satisfying to do so, it's for the betterment of the hobby and the community if NO ONE has to deal with that.

If I ever thought that GW could do that, I'd agree. But I'll settle for them inadvertently fething over MCs like they have done to BA, DE and Orks entire lists.

SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.

...So nobody's a Daemon or Tyranid player trying to protect the bits that make their armies work?

 TheLumberJack wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Has anyone noticed that those who are trying to protect the special snowflake status of MC are the Tau/Eldar and everyone else is trying to either nerf them or make vehicles as good.

Vehicles need to be better, but making MC garbage is not the fix

No, but it would be fun to feast on the tears of those who spent mass $$ on cheesy Riptides.