Rogerio134134 wrote:
...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

Scouts -> Reivers

Tacticals -> Intercessors

Devastators -> Hellblasters

Assault Marines -> Inceptors

Terminators -> Aggressors

Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought

Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor

And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except neither Aggressors or Reivers fulfill the same role as scouts, and both are inferior.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
...will gw replace scouts with reivers in future...?

Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:

Scouts -> Reivers

Tacticals -> Intercessors

Devastators -> Hellblasters

Assault Marines -> Inceptors

Terminators -> Aggressors

Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought

Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor

And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

I'd kick up a fuss. I'm in the middle of paying someone to commission what is essentially an entire space marine scout army, replete with custom angry marine scenes, dioramas, artwork, illustrations - I'd be pissed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And with that the full spectrum of OldMarine roles has been filled with Primaris.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oldmarines will be squatted come 9th edition (in whatever form that comes).

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And with that the full spectrum of OldMarine roles has been filled with Primaris.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Oldmarines will be squatted come 9th edition (in whatever form that comes).

Y'know, all for except

*Assault Terminators
*Assault Marines
*Sternguard Veterans
*Vanguard Veterans
*Deathwing Knights
*Tactical Terminators
*Company Veterans
*Tactical Marines
*Bikers
*Land Speeders

 buddha wrote:
Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

Andykp wrote:
It certainly looks like they will replace the classic scout battle field roles. The recruitment part seems a grey area at the minute.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
No, I don't think so. Reivers are melee and terror specialists at the end of the day. On the other hand, Scouts are stealth specialists who chiefly wield ranged weapons. Codex-wise, they don't line up. Not to mention the fact that Guilliman despised the similar 22nd Chapter of the Ultramarines back in the day.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I don't think they got rid of the scout phase of marine creation. Maybe with the cawlness having a better success rate and faster maturation they can bypass the time that implantation would "normally" take. then since the marines are more fully matured they can figure out which marine is best for which role, then begin training in a speciality (more 30kish).

Dunno, GW should flesh out how they're implemented in conjunction with integration into existing chapters.

At least we'll find more out when the 80 days have expired.

Kai Calimatinus wrote:Its gonna take a long time...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

robbienw wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

robbienw wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?

He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Common sense, a recent word from Jes Goodwin saying basically that Primaris are intended as a replacement for the space marines line, and a long history of getting fethed over by GW.

Do you have any evidence to refute this?

So it other words, no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim and it is just your opinion of what might possibly happen in future.

Jes Goodwin didn't say they were intended as a replacement in the Voxcast video at all. He referred to the it as marine 'redesign', but redesign does not necessarily imply replacement. Perhaps they started off as a replacement in their initial concept stage, but that isn't the case now.

I don't need evidence to refute this claim. You are the one making it, the onus on you is to provide evidence (not supposition) to back it up. The only evidence we have is thus far, no classic marine unit has been taken off sale, no primaris kit has replaced a classic kit, no primaris squad kits are a direct equivalent of classic kits, and the fact that GW said in their primaris Faq that Primaris are an addition and not a replacement for classic marines.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

So it other words, no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim and it is just your opinion of what might possibly happen in future.

Jes Goodwin didn't say they were intended as a replacement in the Voxcast video at all. He referred to the it as marine 'redesign', but redesign does not necessarily imply replacement. Perhaps they started off as a replacement in their initial concept stage, but that isn't the case now.

I don't need evidence to refute this claim. You are the one making it, the onus on you is to provide evidence (not supposition) to back it up. The only evidence we have is thus far, no classic marine unit has been taken off sale, no primaris kit has replaced a classic kit, no primaris squad kits are a direct equivalent of classic kits, and the fact that GW said in their primaris Faq that Primaris are an addition and not a replacement for classic marines.

Well considering my conclusion is the only one that actually makes sense given all the marine releases from the past 2 years I would say you should be the one providing the evidence. I think my conclusion speaks for itself.

I don’t even know why this particular issue is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. Literally the only posts you ever make are a poor attempt to refute the obvious, you can stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand as much as you want. Anybody with an ounce of common sense would bet on Primaris as the future.

And if GW ever releases a brand new box of squat marines you can start your own thread telling everyone how right you were and I will concede right then and there.

robbienw wrote:
I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.

If Primaris sales fail to equal previous sales of classic marines by a significant margin, you may find GW turning their attention again to classic designs.

It must be nice to be so certain of your assumptions. I put the same stock in them as those of people claiming 30k is dead

That's a very long way of saying you don't have any evidence, and can't prove your claim.

What you personally believe and feel makes sense is of no relevance. Its still just your opinion of what might happen, it is not fact.

robbienw wrote:
I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

That's a very long way of saying you don't have any evidence, and can't prove your claim.

What you personally believe and feel makes sense is of no relevance. Its still just your opinion of what might happen, it is not fact.

So is yours a very short way of saying that you also have no evidence and your opinion is based on conjecture?

At least my conclusion is based on the recent slew of releases and the fluff being written..

Remember, what you personally believe and feel makes sense is of no relevance.

robbienw wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Pattern Recognition is not hard evidence but it's pretty good evidence imho.

If a dog bites you thirty times after you try to pet it, do you pet it a thirty first time?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

robbienw wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?

He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're still jumping to your conclusion.

So far, we've no indication that the existing Marine stuff is going anywhere. At all. Just that future kits will most likely be Primaris oriented.

I mean, evidence, inference and indications aside, do either of you genuinely believe that oldmarines are staying around forever, or are you trying to make another point entirely? Because I still don't get what's so insensible about the assertion that Primaris will eventually - and eventually is not the same as soon - be replacing stubbies.

Kai Calimatinus wrote:
You know, as much as I'm a stick my fingers in my ears kind of guy, as Galef says, if it gets to the point where Primaris outstrip the Gary Oldsmarines to the point of questioning the line as far as economic viability, GW would be correct to drop them. They are a company, and the minority still buying them won't have much right to demand they keep a kit only a small number of people buy.

Like I say, I'll just counts-as the short guys as the 2W ass-kickers they ought to have been from the start, and if any rules exist, and counts-as little round karadron as normal marine rules, if'n the shorties don't come back.

Kai Calimatinus wrote:
When (and if) Primaris kwyword goes away since they are all that's left, especially with the business of their size being due to a new organ's effect on existing growth controlling inplants like thr osmodula, and with the Rubicon Primaris, I could absolutely see people saying "yeah my marines all got upgraded to Primaris, but even though Cawl's gene seed was pure their existing defects meant they didn't grow much just get stronger, with higher muscle density, and those metallofibre muscle coils Cawl installs. So they just wear their old armour"

 Galef wrote:

Kai Calimatinus wrote:
When (and if) Primaris kwyword goes away since they are all that's left, especially with the business of their size being due to a new organ's effect on existing growth controlling inplants like thr osmodula, and with the Rubicon Primaris, I could absolutely see people saying "yeah my marines all got upgraded to Primaris, but even though Cawl's gene seed was pure their existing defects meant they didn't grow much just get stronger, with higher muscle density, and those metallofibre muscle coils Cawl installs. So they just wear their old armour"

And there are plenty of fluff justifications just like this.

They problem right now is that if both Primaris and regular Marine exist on the table top, you have to buy one or the other to "properly" represent them.
Once regular Marines go extinct, players will have more freedom to use either models to represent the only Marines at that point (Primaris).
Which is the only reason I want Oldmarines gone. Not because I don't like them, or like Primaris more, but because I want players to have more modeling freedom to take either aesthetic they want.

But GW seems pretty devious in this regard, because they want you to buy more models, which is why they will continue to only release Primaris Marines and only keep Old Marines available as long as they still sell.
But there should be a tipping point at which the vast majority of players just stop buying Old Marines (because they either already have all they want or just don't like them compared to the new Primaris GW is HEAVILY pushing). That day is coming, eventually

-

BrianDavion wrote:
tanks are something that can be left until last as they're easy to say "well primaris are using predators" bikes are arguably something we effectively have with inceptors

we definatly need a "heavy" force though. armor, heavy weapons and duability

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
tanks are something that can be left until last as they're easy to say "well primaris are using predators" bikes are arguably something we effectively have with inceptors

we definatly need a "heavy" force though. armor, heavy weapons and duability

I don't disagree with that, the tanks just need to be primarined though, so maybe grav and a slightly larger size... And guns, so many guns.

robbienw wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Spoiler:

robbienw wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?

He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're still jumping to your conclusion.

So far, we've no indication that the existing Marine stuff is going anywhere. At all. Just that future kits will most likely be Primaris oriented.

I mean, evidence, inference and indications aside, do either of you genuinely believe that oldmarines are staying around forever, or are you trying to make another point entirely? Because I still don't get what's so insensible about the assertion that Primaris will eventually - and eventually is not the same as soon - be replacing stubbies.

I think its a possibility they could eventually be replaced fully by primaris. But I don't think its certain or definite to happen at this point.

I think its also possible that when GW are done with primaris in say 8 to 10 years time, they may return to classic marines and release updated kits in a bid to sell more even more marines. GW have form with returning to older stuff.

I also think its possible in say 10 years time or so when they are done with primaris, they may produce a new third type of marine that combines all the good elements of classics and primaris and ends up replacing both types.

These are all possibilities, I'm not saying any of them will definitely happen.

I think its churlish and arrogant when someone says something is DEFINITELY going to happen based on debatable points and supposition, rather than hard evidence, and that you are an idiot or have no common sense because you don't accept their singular opinion as fact. I've known people to claim so many things are certain so many times, then something different happens, that I can't take people who are opinionated in such a way seriously. Say you think its possible or even highly likely, but don't assert it as a fact.

 Formosa wrote:
Jesus Christ it does haha, thing is I love and hate the repulsor, I love the chassis and turret but the rest is rubbish, so I fixed it lol

 Galef wrote:
Looks like Primaris are getting some kind of Autocannon weapon. That's officially Primaris with Heavy Weapons. One step closer to OldMarines being redudndant

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think reviers will just be the CC form of scouts.

BrianDavion wrote:
GW might also be deciding to retire the concept of scouts as their "ultimate solution" to the "scout problem" (namely that scouts are always gonna be cheaper then tac marines and the better spam troop)

usmcmidn wrote:
In Dark Imperium doesn’t it literally say there won’t be any more “old” Marines? I remember reading something like that.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
My question regarding the Primaris/oldmarine divide is... if they really are going to eventually replace the old marines, are we ever going to get Primaris kits that actually live up to the current Tactical squad/Assault squad/Devastator squad kits we have now? As in, am I ever going to be able to put an Intercessor squad on the table with a plasma gun and a combi-plas on the sarg? Or is the future of the Primaris line just going to be full of these guys who have very little in the way of options? It seems like GW are hell bent on making the Primaris units as inflexible as possible, to the point that throwing special weapons on them requires a totally different box (like the Hellblasters). Is that the future of this line? Are Marines going to be Eldar where if I want a melta gun I have to grab a kit of Primaris Fire Dragons? I hope not, but it seems like that's where we're going.

 Galef wrote:

Players could still use their oldMarine models as Primaris marines because they would be the "same" units. Intercessors replace Tacticals, etc.
-

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.

 Galef wrote:
It definitely seems like GW is moving towards more homogenized units.

I am all for this eventual game-state, however my objection is to the method in which GW seems to be implementing the transition: very, VERY slowly with full denial that old options will go away. This has created this almost unbearable "limbo" game-state in which players are unsure of new purchases and "will Primaris replace Oldmarines?" threads will continue to pop up.

 Galef wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.

I never meant to imply homogenization would be good for the faction from an special-snowflake standpoint. Just that it appears like GW wants it that way, and it would speed up the game just a tad.
Say what you will about "taking away uniqueness", but it is hard to argue that it negatively affects balance/ease of play.

-

 Brother Castor wrote:
If GW are planning on phasing out standard marines, why do they keep releasing more codexes with rules for them in, and why do they keep selling them to new players in the Start Collecting! boxes? That's not to say they won't phase them out in the future, but even if they do I'm very glad to have a fully painted army of current models and the full set of 8th edition rules for them.

 Galef wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
If GW are planning on phasing out standard marines, why do they keep releasing more codexes with rules for them in, and why do they keep selling them to new players in the Start Collecting! boxes? That's not to say they won't phase them out in the future, but even if they do I'm very glad to have a fully painted army of current models and the full set of 8th edition rules for them.

My theory is that GW will continue to release rules of OldMarines, but continue to make those rules sub-par compared to Primaris.
Little by little, sales will drop on OldMarine kits, because new players do not want them and old players already have them and that will be all GW needs to justify dropping them from the line.

It will be decided by the players, not GW. But will likely take years to completely happen

-

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.

Melissia wrote:Eliminators are really closer to Vindicares than Scouts. Scouts rely on relatively cheap, massed light sniper fire, while Eliminators are a few rare expensive elites firing special ammo.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The execution may be marginally different, but the role is the same - scout sniper. Where are you getting this specific info on their cost, by the way?

 Melissia wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The execution may be marginally different, but the role is the same - scout sniper. Where are you getting this specific info on their cost, by the way?

The way they're described. I can't be the only one who actually read the damn blurb, can I?

robbienw wrote:
Seems to me that Reivers are effectively being replaced themselves by Infiltrators. Similar but much improved model, infiltrator Bolter can easily count as a bolt carbine, bolt pistol and knife option can easily be converted.

robbienw wrote:
I’m talking about in model terms.

robbienw wrote:
In summation, No.

Scouts in the background lore: still around

Scouts in shops and online: still available

Scouts in rules: still there

 Ginjitzu wrote:

robbienw wrote:
In summation, No.

Scouts in the background lore: still around

Scouts in shops and online: still available

Scouts in rules: still there

These are all descriptions of the present though. The question is about the future.

robbienw wrote:
Jes Goodwin even said in the last voxcast that they aren’t a replacement or the same thing, and that scouts are still a separate thing extant in 40k.

He did, but that's not the same as saying that they'll still be sold on the GW store, or still featured in Black Library literatture in ten years time.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Looks like I was onto something here! I think scouts will be redesigned in the future to be significantly worse than normal marines.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

Wolf Scouts better be worried then...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

Wolf Scouts better be worried then...

Wolf Scouts are a straight comparison to Reivers.
They both sit in the Elite slot and suck.
At least Reivers are nice kits to make Wulfen out of.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

Wolf Scouts better be worried then...

Wolf Scouts are a straight comparison to Reivers.
They both sit in the Elite slot and suck.
At least Reivers are nice kits to make Wulfen out of.

 Stevefamine wrote:
I doubt they'll get replaced - but who knows at this point. Scouts will be in the next codex - especially with a Scout character / Telion

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.

Wolf Scouts better be worried then...

Wolf Scouts are a straight comparison to Reivers.
They both sit in the Elite slot and suck.
At least Reivers are nice kits to make Wulfen out of.

How? I'd love Wulfen that don't look like they were designed by someone about to be fired for drinking on the job.