flamingkillamajig wrote:
So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list.
...
In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).

(mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)?

The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari.

Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.

 Hellebore wrote:
The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.

They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.

Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.

The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.

so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.


IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.

The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.

But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.

Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.

BanjoJohn wrote:I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up,

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think Ynnari are the one faction post-Kirby one could say noone at GW cares about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Again, imperfect knowledge of the faction, but in terms of new? Dark Eldar have their jets, the Not-Talos, Grotesques being Embiggened and Wracks filling the old Grotesque role. Beastmaster got some new pets.

Further comparison? For 3rd Ed, Dark Eldar had….

1. Archon. 2. Succubus. 3. Haemonculus. 4. Dark Eldar Warriors. 5. Wyches. 6. Beastmaster & Warp Beasts. 7. Jetbikes. 8. Scourges. 9. Hellions. 10. Scourges. 11. Raiders. 12. Ravagers. 13. Mandrakes. 14. Talos. 15. Incubi.

Tyel wrote:
I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.

Have Mandrakes mounted on flaming Velicoraptors. Not quite sure how you visualise it, but a monster which is effective creeping shadow that eats things.

Some sort of unit relating to the Dark Muses. Can provide "i can't believe its not a psyker" buffs. Probably need to expand on what the Dark Muses are, but you can't keep saying "Vect is a living muse" and pretending we are meant to care if you don't.

Breton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?

Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?

Splinter Rifles are S3. They're Anti-Infantry Lasguns. Part of the issue is things are infantry that shouldn't be - or aren't and should be. Part of the problem is that Poison works the same no matter the armor. A guardsman wearing a cotton shirt is more susceptible to poison than a Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. In an ideal world (pre-planning and supporting Poison, Haywire and others) every unit would have Organic and/or Mechanical keywords. Most of the issue is that too few Dark Eldar units have mid-strength stat'ed weapons or consider strength at all. Everywhere else I see power weapons are (racial S+1). Dark eldar are still S3. Eldar Storm Guardians are S4. Marines are S5. Even if everything was keyworded in a way to "properly" represent Poison Dark Eldar would still have holes for mounted, and the vehicles too "small" to require a Dark Lance. The problem becomes even more obvious and worse when you get to the melee weapons. They do not have power fists, chain fists, thunder hammers or anything like them. Only Wracks have a melee with Strength higher than 4. Because its 5. And its Limit 1. That's a problem against Crisis Suits. You pretty much have to shoot them in a war of attrition. Or if we fix the keywords, its a problem against Wraithblades. They just don't have enough units with enough tools for non-infantry in T5-T8ish ranges.

There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.

I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.

They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.

No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.

I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.

They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.

No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.

 Hellebore wrote:
Imo the poison should be more of an army rule rather than a weapon rule.

Like once per phase one of each of these 6 poisons can be used by one unit that affects their attacks thusly:

X
Y
Z


Then you can have tailored poisons to monsters vehicles, characters, units etc that are more than just X+ to wound.

It becomes like the craftworld battle focus that gives them a toolkit to apply mega sledgehammers where they need to

 Nevelon wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Was just thinking about other armies, and realised perhaps DE could do with something akin to Barbgaunts?

Whilst reasonably shooty, the Barbgaunts main advantage is hampering enemy movement. That seems like a tool DE could do an awful lot with?

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's a drag because Kabalites, at 11.5 points per model and two shots per Kabalite, do less damage into common Infantry than an Intercessor does, with their 16 points per model and four shots per guy.

I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.

A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?

Holy mother of strawman arguments.

You know it doesn't, you know that I'm comparing a specialist weapon with no ap and 1 damage that has anti-infantry 3+ to a weapon with more range, shots, ap and no specialism.

That doesn't magically make it an ideal anti-tank weapon. It means it's more applicable to a wider range of targets.

Taking one for the team after the other thread, stop having such a raging hate boner at the idea of anyone having any opinion of marines that isn't assuming they're perfect and the best.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?

Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".

At the minute I think Biological, Mechanical (which would include buildings, I guess) and Daemonic would probably cover all bases, off the top of my head?

I agree that units could cover two of those categories, too - bikers, the Primario Kart, the Marine Warsuit, the GK Baby Carrier, etc.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A splinter rifle is equal into TEQ shot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.

Now we're back into shot-per-shot?

And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?

Intercessors cost less than half again the points of Kabalites, while the basic dudes put out 200% the damage into TEQ and 225% into MEQ.

A 10-strong kabalite squad, with sarge having a rifle and max heavy weapons, expects to do 8/9ths a point of damage from 12 Splinter shots, about 2/3rds a point of damage from the Blaster, another 2/3rds from the Dark lance (I’m assuming they moved, since a lot of this is 18” range), a little over 1/3rd from the Shredder, and another 8/9ths from the Splinter cannon.
In total, that’s about 3.5 damage to TEQ.

7 Intercessors with one grenade launcher do about 2.1 damage from rifles and 4/9ths from the Grenade launcher. Totaling about 70% the damage from just about equal points.

Kabalites are slightly faster, but also significantly less durable.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I haven't checked the latest codex but incubi with a 3+/5++ would be nice and maybe give them the ability to shoot from their helmets like they used to have. Then give them a form of webway ability like warp spiders except maybe allow them to move and jump into melee and jump out. Also give them more options besides the klaive as melee options. Also give them some fear options back where they scare the crap out of other units and need to make a leadership test on a certain amount to leave combat. That or make their webway ability and/or fear helmets allow the enemy to not overwatch when they charge.

I can't remember about the latest raider option but they should absolutely have assault ramps or some sort of thing for fast assaults.

Improve the fear options. Make them better and allow for more negative modifiers for enemy shooting (negative modifiers to ballistic skill, preventing overwatch or lowering their shooting ranges) or melee (strikes last or lower WS). The enemy should be disoriented, out-maneuvered and unaware. Also the lowered enemy ranges were normal vs raiders with certain upgrades in 5th.

Make archons good again. Allow them to give out buffs if they're in a transport and when they're out of them. Give them the option to take bikes, scourge wings, or hellions or at least give some of those options to the succubus. They should be either melee, fear inducing or shooting power-houses. Make them like the old Big meks where they shoot a gun at you that throws you into the warp if it rolls high enough except just make it fairly strong in general. Make the old huskblade archons that can boost their power until they can finally face monsters in combat and win.

Make haemonculus be massively anti-psyker like they used to be. Give them some super gun (like a super hex rifle that has massive ap and instant death as well as can pick out characters) or anti-monster weapon in melee.

Give us more vehicle options including the Dais of Destruction and maybe give more options to the ravager. We absolutely need one or two super heavies.

Add some sort of super monster like a talos except way bigger like a Knight.

Bring back grotesques and give them more melee options like one for anti-vehicle and make flesh gauntlets anti monster and anti infantry.

Give scourge a disintegrators option with 36" range and the jump-shoot-jump ability. Scourge also need 4+/5++ if they don't have it already.

More deep strike across the board, better movement ranges, better ability to lower incoming damage, better ability to tank for covens and better ability to increase damage and fear.

Bring back Medusae and have them do negative modifiers against the enemy if any enemies get wounded by them to make archon assaulting with them easier.

Make lhamean poison super strong and go through a lot of ap and hurt monsters and infantry really well.

Make poisoned attacks do more damage and have more ap in general.

Add a grenade type like phantasm except launched by haemonculus covens that makes enemies fight and hurt each other and do damage against themselves and/or prevent overwatch or count as if they're in melee.

More and better snipers for covens. There's no way a faction built around killing enemy leaders and causing mass panic in their opponents shouldn't like snipers or some form of enemy character killing.

Some of these options would be fun but dark eldar have become increasing boring to play as. Last i played necrons could teleport out of combat and shoot into wych squads nets or no and a lot of things that could shoot into combat could kill wyches as well. Such a disappointment. That and any game with a lack of cover was just painful to play as dark eldar.

 Overread wrote:


Tau might be next after Dark Eldar, at least Tau feel like they've still got potential for some updates.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.

It’s T5, and has a 4+/5++. It’s not that broad.

Terminators are, normally, T5 W3 2+/4++.
There is wargear that changes that (Storm Shields) and DG terminators have bonus toughness over normal astartes’ toughness.
A Spawn shares exactly one defensive value with Terminators-T5.

Please, if you could, give your definition of TEQ. Not examples-the actual definition you use.

Breton wrote:

You said TEQ not Tactical Terminator Squad. To me that means everybody with a T5 2+/4++ or close enough for napkin math. And Terminator Captains have 6. Assault Terminators with Storm Shields have 4. Bloodcrushers are fairly close to TEQ and have four wounds. Hellflayers at T6 wtih a 4++ are even closer to Terminator Identical to qualify as TEQ. Broadside Battle Suits at T6, with a 2+ armor save also remind me quite a bit of Terminators. Especially if they fix the keyword problem already discussed. They have 8 Wounds. Carnifexes and Screamer-Killers are less close this go round, but still a little close. Rubric Marines are closer to TEQ than MEQ and they only have two. Sekhetar Robots have 4. Chaos Spawn have four. Allarus Custodians have four. Vertus Praetors have 5. Cthonian Earthshakers have 6. Biovores have 5.

No it doesn't make the math any different. It’s the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
2+/4++ and 4+/5++ are completely different and chaos spawn are not TEQs by any stretch of the definition. That claim is ludicrous.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.

Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.

By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Offshoot thread.
Sorry for contributing to the derail.

On topic!

The mercenary races for Dark Eldar are something I know Wyldhunt wants more of. What all exist for them? Either units (former and current) or in lore?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Archons? It feels pretty indefensible they don’t have options similar to Eldar Autarchs.

I’m not suggesting anything as boring as “Autarch But With Spikes”. Combat Monsters can have different flavours. But let them ride a damned jetbike at least.

Or, as a compromise? Lieutenant Level Characters for the more Merc type elements. I’m not entirely sure what those might look like in terms of equipment.

.

cuda1179 wrote:
THIS!!!! So much this. Archons used to be SUPER scary back in 3rd to 4th edition. You just avoided them, and if possible, shot at them. I have a really cool one I converted with a Punisher (The old-school name for Incubi Klaives). Now they are a complete joke. Take your choice of 2 pistols, and one of three CCW's. I hope you never want to be above strength 4 (usually 3) for some reason. 4-6 attacks isn't exactly great either.

They need to become the bad-a**, self-appointed blender unit deleter again. Give them the options of 2 more ranged weapons, 2 more CCW's (with 6-7 attacks, and 3-4 damage each), some more wargear (Tormentor helm? Combat Drugs?). And for an alternate unit, a version on a jetbike, even if they have more limited weapons selection.

The same can be said about the Succubus, but give her the option of a skyboard instead of the jetbike.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t agree. Terminators are meant to be tough. Yes, any armour is going to have weak points, but that’s all relative.

If my most heavily armoured areas are equivalent to say, 6” of steel? My thinner, more vulnerable areas could still be the equivalent of 3” of steel. So even on the thinnest area, small arms still have basically no chance of hurting me. And that’s what Terminator armour has always been. A reliable answer to small arms.

Just…let Terminators be a difficult opponent.

Instead, I think DE need to lean more into the kidnapping angle. Let some weapons reflect they want you alive, first and foremost. Injured if needs be, but uninjured being particularly prized. Once your in their grasp? They can winkle you out your tin can further down the road.

I’m thinking, just to use existent 40K tech? Stasis fields, tangle nets (maybe with EMP tech to switch off fancier armours), gravity traps etc.

That way, any would-be victims who can’t be rapidly or reliably subdued by poison (which needn’t always be deadly!) can be nabbed via other means.

If we subtlety reimagine the Shredder? We could end up with a mono-filament weapon that forces the foe to remain stationary lest they get julliened. Haywire weapons which shutdown Power Armour etc.

Basically, not everything has to be something that makes other things go splat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashkerly. Mentioning kidnapping has me curious about another toy they could have.

We know Battleshock partially represents squad members losing their nerve rather than being slain, yes? At least that’s my understanding.

How about some VP Mechanism, tied to the number of models lost to Battleshock, representing victims taken back to Commoragh.

Let it be something tallied at the end of the game, representing that the Dark Eldar come for more than just breaking your stuff. The Raids are there to gather new slaves. And so even if the raiding force takes a mauling? Provided enough slaves are gathered, it can still be a victory.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Going through other half-remembered rules of old. And not just from 40K.

BFG wise, Dark Eldar ships had mimic drives. I do have the relevant book upstairs but can’t be arsed to go check. But it essentially messed with your enemy in the early game.

Something like that could be adopted into 40K. A rule or equipment option which mitigates first turn shooting. Give the DE player a solid chance at the first strike.

I think in terms of game balance they still need something. If you've suffered an internal wound from a neurotoxin, I aren't sure what the layers of steel offer.

Ofc the other option is likely more sensible and that's stop intercessors spamming 40 shots a unit.

This is why I mentioned it as a battle focus idea previously as a range of effects you can pick on of each per round.

Imo kabalites are too hordey at the moment so anything to make their hammer harder and their cost higher is preferred. Maybe if they had a generic mutie slave horde unit that's not grotesques or whatever that any cult can deploy it would make sense. But even their cloning system doesn't make endless warriors.

They just suck and I'd like to see them better. Beyond just making them an elf horde

Tyel wrote:I feel like the thread is just "what DE need is for Kabalites with Splinter Rifles to be better".

Focusing on poison is to my mind bizarre, because its such a minority concern. I guess there's the Kabalite detachment which is "kabalites in transports, the list". But otherwise you are hardly likely to bring enough splinter-armed kabalites to be bothered.

JNAProductions wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Venom Rounds: Your attacks wound non-vehicles on 3+ regardless of Toughness.

I don't think they should also wound Monsters on a 3+.
Make it non-Monsters and non-Vehicles on a 3+, Monsters on a 5+, and Vehicles they get no bonus against.

As for the splinter rifles themselves: yes, make them like Kroot rifles. +1 attack. Would assault 3 make them too OP?

ccs wrote:I would like my Talos/Cronos units to be restored to units of 1-3.

 cuda1179 wrote:
What if they went back to the formula of 2 heavies, two specials per 10 Kabalites? Duplicates allowed. That, with the leader's blast pistol, really does help against the heavier stuff.

Apply the same formula if they brought back 20 man squads. Blast pistol, 4 blasters, 4 Dark Lances. That could do damage to Terminators or vehicles.

 cuda1179 wrote:
What I love about 20 man units is that they just might have enough volume of fire to get something done. A lone 10-man unit is barely a threat to anything that's not Guard/ork boys. Look at us, we killed a single marine! With 20 ,and all the heavies/specials, you might be able to cripple a vehicle while also slightly annoying an infantry unit of convenience.

Yes, this unit is prime target for the Wombo Combo, but it's somewhat balanced by not being able to mount a Raider. So mobility is lower, no deepatrike.

BanjoJohn wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

On the note of melee kabalites, I'll point out that craftworlders have storm guardians (10 bodies, mostly melee+pistol loadouts with a handful of special weapons mixed in, sticky objective rule), and they'd drop their bad melee weapons in a heartbeat if they could take catapults instead.

I think storm guardians needs to get the options they had in 2nd edition, possibly with some expansion. Every member should be able to have combat weapon, and swap it out for chainsword, power sword, power axe, or power fist. And all should have shuriken pistol with option to swap out for plasma pistol (or star pistol), fusion pistol, flame pistol, etc.

Tyel wrote:
Saying a Kabalite is worth 11.5 points and they therefore lose to an Intercessor is just wrong to my mind.

BanjoJohn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

On the note of melee kabalites, I'll point out that craftworlders have storm guardians (10 bodies, mostly melee+pistol loadouts with a handful of special weapons mixed in, sticky objective rule), and they'd drop their bad melee weapons in a heartbeat if they could take catapults instead.

I think storm guardians needs to get the options they had in 2nd edition, possibly with some expansion. Every member should be able to have combat weapon, and swap it out for chainsword, power sword, power axe, or power fist. And all should have shuriken pistol with option to swap out for plasma pistol (or star pistol), fusion pistol, flame pistol, etc.

That would make them a LOT more expensive-not something generally desirable on an objective grabber.

Why would they be an objective grabber? that's the job of guardian defender squads, storm guardians with power weapons should be ripping up units in melee.

Tyel wrote:I think the modern detachment system allows for wide factions like Eldar to have units that notionally step on each others toes.

Storm Guardians are a light assault unit with special weapons. In an Aspect or Wraith Host they probably don't have a place compared with say Banshees or Wraith Blades. But in other detachments the rules may justify it.

"Melee Kabalites" would likewise only seem to make sense compared with Wyches or Wracks with detachment support. Although it the option was say basic melee guys and two blasters/shredders/agonizers I could maybe see it over the current load out. Which as you say arguably wants to be split in two.

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm out of the competitive loop, but my understanding is that stormies are considered worth splashing into most lists at the moment. Because their offense is okay, but their main role is just as a squad that stickies objectives near your home base and then denies scoring for a turn by standing on an enemy-contested objective with OC2 before dying.

But yeah, no one takes stormies for their swords (or even their power swords), and kabalites who swap their rifles for mediocre melee weapons would basically be stormies without the serpent scale platform or the potential warlock support wombo combo.

I agree - but melee Kabs could likewise get sticky objectives, a 5++, some more character support etc.

The problem is always going to be in a kabal/cult/coven agnostic world, its hard to come up with a unit that isn't explicitly stepping on Wyches and Wracks. Dark Eldar already have two battleline light assault units. Its hard to see what "melee kabs" bring that these aren't theoretically already doing.

I mean a unit of Lhamaeans could be interesting. But is this just "Wyches but you get lethal hits and lose the 4++"? Seems a bit redundant. Where in the sort of assault food chain are they meant to sit? If they aren't meant to do damage but just grab objectives, is this a utility that DE really need, as they arguably have many fast units that are fairly capable of this sort of thing.

 cuda1179 wrote:
That's an idea. Perhaps the way to "Make Kabalites Great Again" isn't so much boosting their stats or dropping their points. Perhaps it's just character attachment.

First: Make Raiders Transport 12 models

Second: Change the Squad size of Kabalites to 5-10-20

Third: make more Lieutenant level leaders for the Dark Eldar.

Then you may attach Courts of the Archon (or whatever they rename them) (with any/all of the types of individuals) to said character. That character (whether full on Archon or the Lieutenant) can then be attached to a Kabalite squad. They gain the Leader abilities, and the abilities of any/all of the Court.

Foot sloggers could be max sized with A LOT of Character buffs, and be pretty darn strong.
Assault 2 weapons with reroll 1's to wound (assuming you spend a pain token), Poinson 3+, and ignores cover isn't horrible. Then add in whatever the Lieutenant buff would be, reroll 1's to hit maybe?

Most of the buffs of the Court come in in Close Combat though, and getting Strikes First, Lethal Hits, -1 to be hit could be incentive enough to justify a pistol/ccw route. Yes,yes, I know this is the "wombo-combo" thing that was mentioned, but many armies already do this, so is it really that bad?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They’re a species that’s accepted the price of their survival is all.

...

And so ultimately? The Dark Eldar aren’t anymore evil than an Ork is evil.

Hellebore wrote:I don't really accept that reading of them.

They haven't accepted anything, they've chosen it.

We have plenty of situations where DE have joined craftworlds, harlequins, corsairs or even exodites. Their lives aren't actually tied to the lifestyle. They lose the hunger of slannesh when they take on those other paths (Lelith noticed this explicitly simply by being away from Commoragh, without even giving up the DE path). They really only have to put on a spirit stone and they're as safe as a corsair.

Their society is one of pure choice. they can give it up at any time but are taught to love it. But clearly not all of them do and thy don't stay that way.


Feeling sorry for addicts only goes so far when they start killing and torturing as part of their addiction and it's not a particularly interesting protagonist position to enjoy.

What I think they need is a Necron Job. It’s time to expand the raiders (back when Necrons had the merest handful of units) to This Is That Culture Going To War And Meaning It.

What horrific weapons of mass murder from before the fall might they still retain? Show us how the weapon lineages of the Craftworlds can be twisted into something horrific.

Whilst I’m not advocating for One Hit Wonders, and never will? Dark Eldar lack reliable threats against Super Heavies. And in game a where Knights come in two flavours and decent variety? That’s no good. Yeah, you could do things with three Ravagers, and as many other Dark Lances as you can squeeze in. But absolutely everything you can equip a Dark Lance to is Easy Prey for a Knight. Especially now you can freely split fire.

Where my knowledge is utterly lacking though is how Dark Lances perform against Regular Tanks. Back when you only needed to penetrate a tank to mess it up, and Lance capped enemy armour at AV14? They were pretty damned reliable. So whilst yes they’ve always been squishy in return? A cautious setup and first round of shooting could put reliable dents in the enemy’s Big Scary Tank, such as a Landraider.

There is part of me though that thinks - can't a range just be complete? Give DE back the stuff they've lost, maybe you could add a couple more things, but does every range need to be bloated out to the size of Space Marines?

Da Boss wrote:Heh, I tend to dread any range refreshes because for me it tends to mean not buying any more models at all because they increase the scale every time these days. If they did refresh DE they'd all be on 29,57mm bases or something.

flamingkillamajig wrote:I personally don't get why you need to make every faction sympathetic.

I just don't get why we even have to know much about any alien or daemons or heretic faction. I prefer the perspective of an imperial citizen or imperial guardsman in old stories that would look at necrons slaughtering their battle hardened veteran troops like it was nothing. Make aliens horrific, mysterious and ALIEN again because to a normal human that's what they are. Even make marines both chaos and normal and even sisters of battle look supernatural. The imperials are superstition. Play into the superstition society and perspective they have. Like seriously i don't need to sympathize over a hive tyrant or gaunt (as funny as that sounds) and tyranids are still popular enough.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Beastmasters could cover a number of sins.

With the right mix of Exotic Beasties, they can potentially cover different gaps in a given army.

Clawed Fiends for instance for mauling and tying up heavy infantry, Warp Beasts/Khymerae* for General Purpose Biting, and those Deth Burds I Can’t Recall The Name Of for bothering light infantry.

And why not A Really Big Beast for Dreadnought Tipping? Because it’s funny watching their legs wiggle about when they’ve been knocked over. Probably.

*Pretty sure that’s what they were called?


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Hey, maybe a Barghesi? We now know what an ickle Barghesi looks like. How about a big ‘un? Really let the Beastmaster show off his mastery of lesser beings?

Oooohhhhhhh….why not a Character Level Beastmaster for a geet big beasty? Just as a Wych can rise to Succubus (and the lower level, the name of which escapes me), why not Beastmasters?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Another suggestion is reimagining the classic Phantasm Grenade. Lean into the hallucination angle. Perhaps a unit hit with one has to re-roll successful to-hit rolls in its next turn, both shooting and close combat, representing them picking the wrong target.

Or perhaps Phantasms switch off enemy Buffs instead? Pinpoint synergy breaking to maximise your own offensive.

Certainly I for one am quite entertained* by Dark Eldar having ways to make fights as one sided as possible, without necessarily making themselves harder. I feel that would keep some finesse to it, as you still need to pick your targets with care, and be in a position to really capitalise on it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Are critical misses currently a thing? And how easy are they to avoid with a bit of re-roll.

Tormentor Helms. Originally just a weedy Splinter Pistol worn at a jaunty angle which I think allowed the two weapon bonus despite double handed weapons.

Are those doing something, anything again these days? If not, what should they be doing for you? I think perhaps something to increase Battleshock losses could be fun. Incubi deliver a heavenly kicking, Tormentor Helms exaggerate the mental impact, causing more to flee or be rendered catatonic and ready for collection? So, when combined with the other hypothetical shenanigans, even a modest squad of Incubi can overwhelm big units with greater ease.

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And speaking of existing units which look great but are perhaps not very good?

Mandrakes. Love love love the models. They look the part, and I like the flaming bogies. But are they bringing anything really useful to the table? If DE did lean into isolating, debuffing and then annihilating a unit or two a turn, how should Mandrakes take part in that?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I’m interpreting correctly? It sounds like no DE units outright suck. Each have their tricks and their toys.

But, and here I think might be the problem? They don’t synergise terribly well.

Now OK, for a species of selfish sadists perhaps that’s entirely on-brand. But it doesn’t feel right for a game where It Ain’t What You’ve Got It’s The Way That You Use It?

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Also also, looking to the future?

What sort of Detachment Missions would you like to see?

If Pain Tokens continue, I think hitting a given target number could be a fun objective. Represent the raiders at least having a terrific high off the back of it.

 Overread wrote:
3rd edition was honestly like they gave the whole range to two different designers and let them go wild. Which kind of fits as the plastic and metal designs were quite different

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I don’t know what exactly, but I think Scourges could use some kind of extreme body modification stable mates. Not Wracks, who aren’t necessarily willing. But regular Commorites who’ve paid to have their bodies altered to allow them to truly indulge some sickening pursuit or other.

I mean, if you can remain elegant and lovely despite having wings added and your bones hollowed out? What else can the Haemonculi do for the right price? What is the limit? Is there even such a thing provided you’ve got the coin?