Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Necrons went to war with the Old Ones because they wouldn't share the key to immortality.

Who's to say that once the Old Ones had shared that knowledge the Necrons wouldn't have gone to war with them anyway.

The Necrons were warring amongst themselves before the war in heaven, and it was the war in heaven that united them, maybe the Old Ones saw their true nature and decided it would be a bad thing for all if they did.

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Necrons went to war with the Old Ones because they wouldn't share the key to immortality.

Who's to say that once the Old Ones had shared that knowledge the Necrons wouldn't have gone to war with them anyway.

The Necrons were warring amongst themselves before the war in heaven, and it was the war in heaven that united them, maybe the Old Ones saw their true nature and decided it would be a bad thing for all if they did.

Their attempts at defending their goose stepping state of elitists only FUBAR'd up the entire galaxy. Keep in mind that all positive accounts about them came from the Eldar, whom they created. And them actually being jerks who wholly deserved extinction is much more in line with general 40k canon, which makes me very suspicious of any pretensions to benevolence from the Fascist Ones.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Necrons went to war with the Old Ones because they wouldn't share the key to immortality.

Who's to say that once the Old Ones had shared that knowledge the Necrons wouldn't have gone to war with them anyway.

The Necrons were warring amongst themselves before the war in heaven, and it was the war in heaven that united them, maybe the Old Ones saw their true nature and decided it would be a bad thing for all if they did.

Their attempts at defending their goose stepping state of elitists only FUBAR'd up the entire galaxy. Keep in mind that all positive accounts about them came from the Eldar, whom they created. And them actually being jerks who wholly deserved extinction is much more in line with general 40k canon, which makes me very suspicious of any pretensions to benevolence from the Fascist Ones.

Except for the fact that at the time, the Necrotyr was a highly warlike race that was hellbent on not only conquering others, but each other. Even now they can't get along!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So they should have given away the key to immortality only to get destroyed in turn and perhaps setting up the Necrons for dominating Space for ever more.

The Immortal things seems to be a load of rubbish as well seeing as how the Old Ones are all dead.

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Necrons went to war with the Old Ones because they wouldn't share the key to immortality.

Who's to say that once the Old Ones had shared that knowledge the Necrons wouldn't have gone to war with them anyway.

The Necrons were warring amongst themselves before the war in heaven, and it was the war in heaven that united them, maybe the Old Ones saw their true nature and decided it would be a bad thing for all if they did.

Their attempts at defending their goose stepping state of elitists only FUBAR'd up the entire galaxy. Keep in mind that all positive accounts about them came from the Eldar, whom they created. And them actually being jerks who wholly deserved extinction is much more in line with general 40k canon, which makes me very suspicious of any pretensions to benevolence from the Fascist Ones.

Except for the fact that at the time, the Necrotyr was a highly warlike race that was hellbent on not only conquering others, but each other. Even now they can't get along!

So at the very best, they're as bad as the Necrons.

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So they should have given away the key to immortality only to get destroyed in turn and perhaps setting up the Necrons for dominating Space for ever more.

The Immortal things seems to be a load of rubbish as well seeing as how the Old Ones are all dead.

Perhaps instead of creating countless cannon fodder races they could have just made emotionless robots or one effective cannon fodder race that wouldn't have messed up the warp.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the Necrons went to war with the Old Ones because they wouldn't share the key to immortality.

Who's to say that once the Old Ones had shared that knowledge the Necrons wouldn't have gone to war with them anyway.

The Necrons were warring amongst themselves before the war in heaven, and it was the war in heaven that united them, maybe the Old Ones saw their true nature and decided it would be a bad thing for all if they did.

Their attempts at defending their goose stepping state of elitists only FUBAR'd up the entire galaxy. Keep in mind that all positive accounts about them came from the Eldar, whom they created. And them actually being jerks who wholly deserved extinction is much more in line with general 40k canon, which makes me very suspicious of any pretensions to benevolence from the Fascist Ones.

Except for the fact that at the time, the Necrotyr was a highly warlike race that was hellbent on not only conquering others, but each other. Even now they can't get along!

So at the very best, they're as bad as the Necrons.

Oh no, they are not.

Lets see your issues:

Warrior races mucking up the Warp: Wouldn't have come about if the Necrotyr had fought them. See WW1, where even the British used Mustard Gas on the enemy to fight Germany, same as in WW2. In actuality the reason the warp became this was because they used it for War, rather then their peaceful methods before with it.

The Necrotyr becoming Unliving menace: Because they did so to themselves, and were pretty much horrible things to begin with. See Warrior Race

They didn't need to share ANYTHING with a race that looked like it would likely try and conquer them as soon as they gave them the technology, I mean the Necrotyr called out the C'tan, went for a deal that turned their entire race to metal JUST TO FIGHT THE OLD ONES. Without regard for anything else, it shows that the Old Ones were right to avoid giving them immortality because they certainly would've just used it for endless conquest.

Humans are organics and create robots. Emotionless robots or a single working cannon fodder race would be preferable to dozens of races that demonstrably did not work.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Humans are organics and create robots. Emotionless robots or a single working cannon fodder race would be preferable to dozens of races that demonstrably did not work.

Seeing as most of the races they created was just to plant seeds in a lifeless galaxy, they were going to watch over them and help them out, but of course a war stops that pretty much, not to mention the Orks and Eldar were the cannon fodder races

Also humans created robots, and then the Robots turned on them, destroying countless worlds, and so it seems that even that has issues.

Regardless, from what we know they were Holly organic, they didn't use metals, they used things more like Eldar in that they literally grew things.

The Old Ones because they would have oppressed any future races to rise up in order to continue their galactic hegemony

Seeing as they helped Create those races by planting the seeds of life on worlds..

Perhaps if they both died humanity would have been able to make for a relatively peaceful dominion without the Fascist Ones or Nazicrons.

Perhaps if the old ones were around and the Necrotyr had chosen to die. There wouldn't be Orks plaguing half the galaxy, old ones could've helped Humanity do better in joining with the other Xenos races rather then be united under the Emporer. Conjecture in thought doesn't work if there's not enough evidence for it.

Given that this is warhammer 40000 it is much more reasonable to assume that the Old Ones are malevolent as it'd be more fitting with the tone of the setting. Assuming benevolent precursors just doesn't match up to the fact that there has not been one truly good faction, with even the Tau being People's Republic of China level evil at best and everyone being indescribably worse.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Isn't it hinted that the Old Ones helped create humans too?

As for them being bad guys, I disagree. The Necrontyr were all trying to kill eachother, they were jealous of the Old Ones and bitter towards them. When they asked for help, it's not a huge step of imagination to say they didn't ask nicely.
And the Old Ones creating races being bad? There's an old passage somewhere that mentions them creating these races as akin to a person having a child. These races were the Old Ones' children, that's how they were originally designed, especially the Eldar, not as bodyguards, but as inheritors of the galaxy. The Old Ones didn't want an empty galaxy.

 Kain wrote:

Any species that wants to make Orks as the inheritors of the Galaxy is an evil bastard, their existence alone would condemn every other species to eternal suffering and strife.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Any species that wants to make Orks as the inheritors of the Galaxy is an evil bastard, their existence alone would condemn every other species to eternal suffering and strife.

Orks got broke along the way, they weren't created to be the way they are in modern day 40k.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I was referring to them being brainier.

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I was referring to them being brainier.

Genius ultraviolent brutes who live only for war are still ultraviolent brutes who live only for war.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I was referring to them being brainier.

Genius ultraviolent brutes who live only for war are still ultraviolent brutes who live only for war.

Or is their nature now a byproduct of losing that intellect? Sure they were created for war, but were they created to be brutish and uncontrollable, I don't believe so.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Wrong again... the orks had no set course of development like the Eldar, once they had developed enough the Old ones were gone. There is a lot more back story here that you have not read. Most intelligent species will fight if they are threatened to slavery.. which is what the necrons wanted initially then when they got tricked that were going for genocide... so again.. why do you think the necrons were so helpless and sad... all they did was try to start a intergalactic war.. then killed off the entire Old Ones species.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Why were they fascist douches? Because they were imortal, extremely intelligent... showed no signs of trying to conquer anything... then when asked to give away what they created or earned.. said no... then were attacked.. then using their advanced tech.. created armies to fight thier enemies.... then were killed off because their enemies found an ally that tricked them, enslaved them and tried to eat the rest of galaxy... yet you defend them??????

 Medium of Death wrote:
The Necrontyr are clearly the bad guys in this instance. The Old Ones should have helped them, or perhaps taken them under their wing. Instead the Old Ones rejected the Necrontyr. This caused a great deal of resentment among the Necrontyr.

The Necrontyr had been infighting since they took to the stars, and probably before then. The Old Ones were rightfully cautious. Perhaps the Old Ones took their retribution too far, they did drive the Necrontyr into the embrace of the C'tan. Whether or not the C'tan were true enemies of the Old Ones from a previous conflict can never be know, but the Necrontyr were happy to exact their vengeance.

The Old Ones were selfish too, like the Necrontyr not being able to accept their short life span, they would not accept their destruction and unleashed the forces that would become Chaos upon the Galaxy. The Necrons were defeated, but gained Immortality. The Old Ones died out/faded out of relevance and their children inherited the stars. Nobody really won & no one side is to blame. In fact, it's probably the Necrons. They destroyed the only beings capable of sealing the Immaterium off from the Galaxy.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Gonna bang the pot on both sides.. but didn't the Old ones children create the Chaos gods? Before the seal was broken the warp had not form entity's? Once it was opened the races of the galaxy were able to influence the warp with their emotions?

So why are there no good emotion gods in the warp?

 Deadshot wrote:
"What was the best thing before sliced bread?"

KnowItAll wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
"What was the best thing before sliced bread?"

Unsliced bread?

 Kain wrote:
t's like how the writers of the treaty of Versailles are the ones who are most at fault for the second world war. Had they not been jerks they could have avoided creating a mess for everyone involved.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Don't forget this line in the Necron codex. This one line is why I despise them as a race

"Ultimately, the Triarch - the ruling council of the Necrontyr - realised that the only hope of unity lay in conflict with an external enemy, but there were few who could prove a credible threat. Only the Old Ones, first of all the galaxy's sentient life, were a prospective foe great enough to bind the Necrontyr to a common cause. Such a war was simplicity in itself to justify, for the Necrontyr had ever rankled at the Old Ones' refusal to share the secrets of eternal life. So did the Triarch declare war upon the Old Ones."

Forget your notions of the Necrons being benevolent and just in asking for immortality. They would have used it for horrible purposes and enslaved the galaxy. Make no mistake, the Necrons wanted that war. They are a war mongering race and the Old Ones were right in refusing them such knowledge.

 Popenfresh wrote:
Kain, I strongly disagree with the idea that a benevolent master-race doesn't fit the 40k setting. The idea that everything was flowers and sunshine but went straight to hell is a lot more grimdark than everything being stupid evil in the first place. The only pure and good thing being raped into oblivion is a lot more tragic than jerks killing other jerks all the time (Which is why I also why I like the whole Isha fluff, poor thing never got a break).

In order for there to be serious evil you need to have a goody-two-shoes counterpart, otherwise it's just one big bland mess. Relativity is the word I mean I suppose.

 Popenfresh wrote:
When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

 Popenfresh wrote:
I never denied that their image hasn't changed over time, though I'm not old enough the know any of the pre 3th edition fluff to be honest. I simply said that I disagree with the idea that 40k has no place for good guys at all.

Even if GW were to reveal that the Old Ones were massive genocidal pricks I would still think the setting deserves a proper memorial of something that was once good and pure but is now wormfood. Like I said, it makes everything all the more grimdark. The Old Ones fit this role perfectly IMO.

Disagree with me all you want but this is just how I feel about the issue.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:

So why are there no good emotion gods in the warp?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
There are lots of good people around. Most Inquisitors are at lawful good people with enormous amounts of power. The IOM is a cynical place, but not stupid evil. If you destroy a planet without good reason it will bite you in the ass. The Imperial Fists are the most polite Space Marines you will ever meet. The Ultras are the lawful good jerks with hearts of good, the Space Wolves are the chaotic good version. Commissars seems to be just a parody as even in the fluff of Ciaphas Cain most seem to be nice enough. Psychotic oddballs ends up as Eviscerator Assassins not as officers in the Imperial Guard. Heck even the Black Templars seemed nice to be dogmatic fanatics, a phrase I thought I would never use.

 Kain wrote:
Cain notes that most by the book commissars get killed quickly because they're donkey-caves who tend to kill more of their own men than the enemy.

They're still the most common.

General Chenkov, who executed his own men to build a dam or marched them across a minefield to clear a way for his tanks is awarded medals and declared a hero of the Imperium for his tactics which would make a Tyranid balk at the losses he takes. Because who cares if millions die to accomplish anything under him, he always wins because the enemy drowns in the dead of Valhalla.

The Marines malevolent are allowed to go about doing the worst of things because they get results.

The Imperium doesn't care about morality, it only cares about results. As long as you can defeat her enemies, it doesn't care if you're a saint or bathe in the blood of babies. And defeating one's enemies through douchey means is much easier.

On that note Juvenant drugs are made out of freshly ground children.

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

 Kain wrote:
Keeping individual cells alive without the whole is actually fairly easy. I mean in the 60s the Soviets could keep a severed dog head alive by having machines circulate it's blood until it starved to death.

 Kain wrote:

 Popenfresh wrote:
When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

Initially the Emperor and Tau were portrayed in very positive lights. Then the fandom said that it wasn't grimdark enough and the Emperor became long haired atheist Hitler and the Tau Empire became the worst of Stalin's Russia and Mao's China all rolled into one.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Actually the blood of X is a common treatment for extending one's life in the Imperium.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Actually the blood of X is a common treatment for extending one's life in the Imperium.

I still think the Tech-Priests has something to steal someone's soul, but unlike with the DE, it doesn't involve pleasure. And they need to act with haste to suck the soul out of anyone.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Humans are organics and create robots. Emotionless robots or a single working cannon fodder race would be preferable to dozens of races that demonstrably did not work.

-Snip-

Also humans created robots, and then the Robots turned on them, destroying countless worlds, and so it seems that even that has issues.

Regardless, from what we know they were Holly organic, they didn't use metals, they used things more like Eldar in that they literally grew things.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Popenfresh wrote:
When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

Initially the Emperor and Tau were portrayed in very positive lights. Then the fandom said that it wasn't grimdark enough and the Emperor became long haired atheist Hitler and the Tau Empire became the worst of Stalin's Russia and Mao's China all rolled into one.

That's not exactly true. The Emperor has, prior to rolling out the Horus Heresy series of novels, never really been presented at all. He's always been a mythical god-figure to the Imperium or a corpse on a fancy chair to everyone else. The whole "man of science and reason" bit is relatively new, comparatively. It was not that the fans demanded that the depiction of the Emperor be changed, simply that a market for a series of books that told us what the Emperor was like, at all, was extant, and materials produced to fill it.