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Gonna bang the pot on both sides.. but didn't the Old ones children create the Chaos gods? Before the seal was broken the warp had not form entity's? Once it was opened the races of the galaxy were able to influence the warp with their emotions?

So why are there no good emotion gods in the warp?

The Tyranids would cause the Death of sentience in the Warp. Restoring it to the calm state it was in before the Old Ones interfered. If any beings were to evolve post Tyranids devouring the entirety of Life in the Milky Way, they could potentially be Psykers and the whole thing would start again.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Gonna bang the pot on both sides.. but didn't the Old ones children create the Chaos gods? Before the seal was broken the warp had not form entity's? Once it was opened the races of the galaxy were able to influence the warp with their emotions?

So why are there no good emotion gods in the warp?

Because the Galaxy is a gakky place to live, causing the negative aspects of the emotions in the warp to be dominant. The warp in turn adds to the misery by vomiting out Daemons, Enslavers, Star Vampires and other nasties resulting in a vicious cycle.

Mankind is at its darkest hour... the Eldar proved they could not survive their own addiction to their emotions... Humans are proving the same thing as they grind mankind down into the dregs of production for war....


Yet the Tau are still here... have proven that the warp does not have an effect on them and steadily progress..... Also have proven they can fight the Tyranids....

I am sure though you think the Tau are evil too...

 Deadshot wrote:
"What was the best thing before sliced bread?"

Unsliced bread?

KnowItAll wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
"What was the best thing before sliced bread?"

Unsliced bread?

Nay.

Really big sandwiches.

 Kain wrote:
t's like how the writers of the treaty of Versailles are the ones who are most at fault for the second world war. Had they not been jerks they could have avoided creating a mess for everyone involved.

I am trying to come up with a term that means simple minded and utterly wrong but nothing comes to mind that also manifests the enormity and magnitude of your error. There was quite a lot going on in the late 20's and 30's that caused WWII that had nothing to do with the hardships caused by the Treaty of Versailles. You cannot have read much history or understood much of what you read in order to come up with such a ridiculous idea.

Don't forget this line in the Necron codex. This one line is why I despise them as a race

"Ultimately, the Triarch - the ruling council of the Necrontyr - realised that the only hope of unity lay in conflict with an external enemy, but there were few who could prove a credible threat. Only the Old Ones, first of all the galaxy's sentient life, were a prospective foe great enough to bind the Necrontyr to a common cause. Such a war was simplicity in itself to justify, for the Necrontyr had ever rankled at the Old Ones' refusal to share the secrets of eternal life. So did the Triarch declare war upon the Old Ones."

Forget your notions of the Necrons being benevolent and just in asking for immortality. They would have used it for horrible purposes and enslaved the galaxy. Make no mistake, the Necrons wanted that war. They are a war mongering race and the Old Ones were right in refusing them such knowledge.

You can't really blame the Olds Ones for the creation of Chaos.

Yes, they created the young races whose minds eventually corrupted the Warp, but such a thing was unprecedented, it had never happened before, and was only done to begin with because the Old Ones were dying, the only reason they even managed to do this before being rendered extinct is because the C'tan (IMO the most horribly evil race to exist in the setting) suffered from a particularly bad case of ADD and started killing eachother.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Don't forget this line in the Necron codex. This one line is why I despise them as a race

"Ultimately, the Triarch - the ruling council of the Necrontyr - realised that the only hope of unity lay in conflict with an external enemy, but there were few who could prove a credible threat. Only the Old Ones, first of all the galaxy's sentient life, were a prospective foe great enough to bind the Necrontyr to a common cause. Such a war was simplicity in itself to justify, for the Necrontyr had ever rankled at the Old Ones' refusal to share the secrets of eternal life. So did the Triarch declare war upon the Old Ones."

Forget your notions of the Necrons being benevolent and just in asking for immortality. They would have used it for horrible purposes and enslaved the galaxy. Make no mistake, the Necrons wanted that war. They are a war mongering race and the Old Ones were right in refusing them such knowledge.

Exactly my point...... I swear people just want to make up in their head what sounds good... then throw out a random reason why... then disappear... is this what is called a troll??

Kain, I strongly disagree with the idea that a benevolent master-race doesn't fit the 40k setting. The idea that everything was flowers and sunshine but went straight to hell is a lot more grimdark than everything being stupid evil in the first place. The only pure and good thing being raped into oblivion is a lot more tragic than jerks killing other jerks all the time (Which is why I also why I like the whole Isha fluff, poor thing never got a break).

In order for there to be serious evil you need to have a goody-two-shoes counterpart, otherwise it's just one big bland mess. Relativity is the word I mean I suppose.

 Popenfresh wrote:
Kain, I strongly disagree with the idea that a benevolent master-race doesn't fit the 40k setting. The idea that everything was flowers and sunshine but went straight to hell is a lot more grimdark than everything being stupid evil in the first place. The only pure and good thing being raped into oblivion is a lot more tragic than jerks killing other jerks all the time (Which is why I also why I like the whole Isha fluff, poor thing never got a break).

In order for there to be serious evil you need to have a goody-two-shoes counterpart, otherwise it's just one big bland mess. Relativity is the word I mean I suppose.

Even the Emperor was revealed to be a genocidal fascist and even the Tau seem to be Stalinists (complete with Gulags) on their best day.

When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

 Popenfresh wrote:
When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

Initially the Emperor and Tau were portrayed in very positive lights. Then the fandom said that it wasn't grimdark enough and the Emperor became long haired atheist Hitler and the Tau Empire became the worst of Stalin's Russia and Mao's China all rolled into one.

I never denied that their image hasn't changed over time, though I'm not old enough the know any of the pre 3th edition fluff to be honest. I simply said that I disagree with the idea that 40k has no place for good guys at all.

Even if GW were to reveal that the Old Ones were massive genocidal pricks I would still think the setting deserves a proper memorial of something that was once good and pure but is now wormfood. Like I said, it makes everything all the more grimdark. The Old Ones fit this role perfectly IMO.

Disagree with me all you want but this is just how I feel about the issue.

 Popenfresh wrote:
I never denied that their image hasn't changed over time, though I'm not old enough the know any of the pre 3th edition fluff to be honest. I simply said that I disagree with the idea that 40k has no place for good guys at all.

Even if GW were to reveal that the Old Ones were massive genocidal pricks I would still think the setting deserves a proper memorial of something that was once good and pure but is now wormfood. Like I said, it makes everything all the more grimdark. The Old Ones fit this role perfectly IMO.

Disagree with me all you want but this is just how I feel about the issue.

The good guys are the individuals who try to change things but end up doing it utterly futilely or are smothered and forgotten by an endless tide of evil. Like Cain, despite all the good he's done, despite all the cadets he tries to teach to be decent people, the tragedy is that most commissars will still be arses who shoot their men for the flimsiest of reasons.

Also, following Greg Bears Forerunner trilogy, the prevailing current in Scifi seems to be Precursor Race=Elitist Arsholes.

There are lots of good people around. Most Inquisitors are at lawful good people with enormous amounts of power. The IOM is a cynical place, but not stupid evil. If you destroy a planet without good reason it will bite you in the ass. The Imperial Fists are the most polite Space Marines you will ever meet. The Ultras are the lawful good jerks with hearts of good, the Space Wolves are the chaotic good version. Commissars seems to be just a parody as even in the fluff of Ciaphas Cain most seem to be nice enough. Psychotic oddballs ends up as Eviscerator Assassins not as officers in the Imperial Guard. Heck even the Black Templars seemed nice to be dogmatic fanatics, a phrase I thought I would never use.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:

So why are there no good emotion gods in the warp?

I thought the initial concept of Chaos was pretty morally androgynous (insert Slaanesh joke) . Khrone was bloodshed but also honor, Tzeench's change goes both ways, Nurgle is decay but also persistence, Slaanesh is excess but also admiration.

However the current in fluff writing trend seems to have dumbed them down quite a bit.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
There are lots of good people around. Most Inquisitors are at lawful good people with enormous amounts of power. The IOM is a cynical place, but not stupid evil. If you destroy a planet without good reason it will bite you in the ass. The Imperial Fists are the most polite Space Marines you will ever meet. The Ultras are the lawful good jerks with hearts of good, the Space Wolves are the chaotic good version. Commissars seems to be just a parody as even in the fluff of Ciaphas Cain most seem to be nice enough. Psychotic oddballs ends up as Eviscerator Assassins not as officers in the Imperial Guard. Heck even the Black Templars seemed nice to be dogmatic fanatics, a phrase I thought I would never use.

Cain notes that most by the book commissars get killed quickly because they're donkey-caves who tend to kill more of their own men than the enemy.

They're still the most common.

General Chenkov, who executed his own men to build a dam or marched them across a minefield to clear a way for his tanks is awarded medals and declared a hero of the Imperium for his tactics which would make a Tyranid balk at the losses he takes. Because who cares if millions die to accomplish anything under him, he always wins because the enemy drowns in the dead of Valhalla.

The Marines malevolent are allowed to go about doing the worst of things because they get results.

The Imperium doesn't care about morality, it only cares about results. As long as you can defeat her enemies, it doesn't care if you're a saint or bathe in the blood of babies. And defeating one's enemies through douchey means is much easier.

On that note Juvenant drugs are made out of freshly ground children.

 Kain wrote:
Cain notes that most by the book commissars get killed quickly because they're donkey-caves who tend to kill more of their own men than the enemy.

They're still the most common.

General Chenkov, who executed his own men to build a dam or marched them across a minefield to clear a way for his tanks is awarded medals and declared a hero of the Imperium for his tactics which would make a Tyranid balk at the losses he takes. Because who cares if millions die to accomplish anything under him, he always wins because the enemy drowns in the dead of Valhalla.

The Marines malevolent are allowed to go about doing the worst of things because they get results.

The Imperium doesn't care about morality, it only cares about results. As long as you can defeat her enemies, it doesn't care if you're a saint or bathe in the blood of babies. And defeating one's enemies through douchey means is much easier.

On that note Juvenant drugs are made out of freshly ground children.

That's if you believe Cain. He ain't the most reliable narrator.

Chenkov is a parody of Russians during WWI and WWII and Chukov which was a quite humane general.

Being ruthless doesn't mean you are a bad person, but yeah ordering in an artillery-barrage on orks attacking a civilians is quite bad, but then again the artillery-barrage might have been a good thing as it created confusion instead of letting the orks slaughter freely.

As long as you can defend her enemies? Ehm I'm hoping from shall go some place in that sentence. Even so it is a hilarious slip of tongue.

And the reward is to bathe in the blood of children actually, it's likely using cells from toddlers and such as mutation is prevalent here even and more so in the grimdark future of 40k.

Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Keeping individual cells alive without the whole is actually fairly easy. I mean in the 60s the Soviets could keep a severed dog head alive by having machines circulate it's blood until it starved to death.

 Kain wrote:
Keeping individual cells alive without the whole is actually fairly easy. I mean in the 60s the Soviets could keep a severed dog head alive by having machines circulate it's blood until it starved to death.

Interesting scientific fact. The Americans did the same thing to two chimps in that era, swapping the heads. One died, the other survived to bite one of the scientists. I guess you could do that, I mean people have had artificial hearts now for a while, so in the IOM I can see the higher-ups becoming machines on the inside as their organs break down. As for the dead, they likely are reused as food for the grox as burial are only for the privileged and rather stupid when Nurgle comes along.

Well this post if getting "delightful". Until GW releases more information on the old ones we will never truly know, and can only speculate. I would personally like there to be contrasts between light and dark with a bit of grey but that is all i can hope for.





(nothing is ever truly evil but just different shades of grey)

 Kain wrote:

 Popenfresh wrote:
When did I ever call Big E a good guy? Also, he's still around, sorta. As opposed to the Old Ones who are dead and gone.

Tau are Tau, no other comments required.

Initially the Emperor and Tau were portrayed in very positive lights. Then the fandom said that it wasn't grimdark enough and the Emperor became long haired atheist Hitler and the Tau Empire became the worst of Stalin's Russia and Mao's China all rolled into one.

That's not exactly true. The Emperor has, prior to rolling out the Horus Heresy series of novels, never really been presented at all. He's always been a mythical god-figure to the Imperium or a corpse on a fancy chair to everyone else. The whole "man of science and reason" bit is relatively new, comparatively. It was not that the fans demanded that the depiction of the Emperor be changed, simply that a market for a series of books that told us what the Emperor was like, at all, was extant, and materials produced to fill it.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Actually the blood of X is a common treatment for extending one's life in the Imperium.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Actually the blood of X is a common treatment for extending one's life in the Imperium.

I still think the Tech-Priests has something to steal someone's soul, but unlike with the DE, it doesn't involve pleasure. And they need to act with haste to suck the soul out of anyone.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Not seeing how the first two refute my points. And the marines malevolent are donkey-caves. Their entire chapter's shtick is being donkey-caves. And learn to read, that says defeat. Lastly, they take dead babies (or live babies people won't miss) and grind them up to make juvenants. So if you ever wondered where little orphan Timmy went...

Ironically a Living Saint may have at one point bathed in the blood of babies. Quite chilling and sobering to think about.

Dead babies won't work as dead cells are inefficient things. Also people that can't pull their weight have little value and that's in Ultramar the nicest place to be, and they pick only the healthy kids. Which is downright chilling. That's the pleasure of stealing a note from the Spartans.

Actually the blood of X is a common treatment for extending one's life in the Imperium.

I still think the Tech-Priests has something to steal someone's soul, but unlike with the DE, it doesn't involve pleasure. And they need to act with haste to suck the soul out of anyone.

Actually you'd be right, but with the wrong faction. The Inquisition has several things they have that do so, but they can only really do so with Psykers.

They ain't known for having psykers, but they still do. So I can see your point. Ouf it must be hellish to be in the employ of the AdMech as a psyker, transferring the lifeforce of a toddler into a corrupt and corpulent old Planetary Governor with AdMech-equipment while you hope to die.