my plan is to DWA 90% of my troops to get them as close as to the enemy as possible.

 Verthane wrote:
I would put a CML or AssCan in every tactical terminator squad. Because half of your units need to start on the board (unless there's been a FAQ) - no intention to sidetrack the discussion if YMDC figured otherwise - the transport capacity and/or ability to hit at long range while advancing is important.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Yes, I do want Knights as they are tougher than normal Terminators and basically annihilate anything without an invulnerable save.

Yes and no.
They are tougher vs small arms fire, but no tougher when put up against plasma and anything else str 7. They certainly annihilate most things for one turn a game, but after that they are only str 6 ap 4, which is nothing fantastic.
Assault terminators only have T4, WS4 and no hammer of wrath, but they do have ap 2 all the time, and still have that important 3++ save. Most importantly, they are scoring.

Now I use my knights in a fluffy list which has them riding in a LRC with a Interrogator chaplain armed with the Mace of Absolution. Can they steam roll anything they touch? Almost certainly. However I would never take more than 1 squad, as you are really taking away from your scoring potential if you do so.

So, I'd recommend 1 knights squad at most.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

my plan is to DWA 90% of my troops to get them as close as to the enemy as possible.

Sorry, as the other guy said, DWA is still effected by the reserves limit, so 50% at most. It sucks but that's the way it is.
Remember that whilst belial has his guaranteed deep strike, he can be just as using his teleport beacon to make sure other units make it down safe. I think this works whilst in the landraider, so you could turbo boost the landraider on turn 1, and then get accurate deep strikes around the raider for a turn 3 charge.

Ezekiel is nothing special. I suppose the book he has could be useful if you are not using knights. He is still effectively a lvl 2 psyker though, as the mind worm skill is pretty poor. No invuln or ap2 either.
If you are considering characters without terminator armour, then certainly consider Azrael. He is a much better investment than Belial imo.

As for special weapons, every squad should have something. I normally run all of mine with CML (It works nice with split fire), with a squad or 2 of assault terminators with a heavy flamer/CF loadout to help deal with hordes and heavy walkers/land raiders.

Deathwing Command Squad (Upgrades: Company Champion (5 pts) Standard of Fortitude (85 pts) + 200 pts = 290 pts)
Librarian (Upgrades: Mastery Level 2 (35 pts) + Terminator Armour (30 pts) + ??? (Some Chapter Relics? Special Wargear?) + 65 pts)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just to clarify, the beacon on Belial only works if he is on the board at the start of the turn - so no deep striking him and then other units around him in one go.

Now as to Belial or Azrael....Azrael is better by a longshot, there is almost no competition.
Belial does have a few advantages - Terminator armour allows deepstrike, and unlocks deathwing command squad, which azrael doesn't. He can also take a TH/SS or his sword, both of which are better than azrael's weapon.

Azrael gives a lot though for those 25 extra points - 4+ invulnerable to the unit he is with, guaranteed warlord trait, +1 wound, +2 attacks, combi plasma, scoring ravenwing and all units in the army can use his leadership (not normally important with a pure deathwing list as all your units are fearless, however it can help with split fire or if the enemy is using terrify on you).

The one thing I hold against Azrael is his lack of terminator armour, he just looks out of place in the deathwing, other than that he is much better than Belial.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Deathwing Command Squad (Upgrades: Company Champion (5 pts) Standard of Fortitude (85 pts) + 200 pts = 290 pts)
Librarian (Upgrades: Mastery Level 2 (35 pts) + Terminator Armour (30 pts) + ??? (Some Chapter Relics? Special Wargear?) + 65 pts)

Little nitpick here: why take them champion if you are not gearing the rest of the squad up for cc? I'd either set them up purely for cc if you want him, or leave him out.

The librarian doesn't need any chapter relics. Most are bad, the only good one is mace of absolution, but you don't want that on a librarian as you will want him using his force weapon most of the time.
The only thing you need to consider for him is perhaps a combi-weapon, and/or a PFG.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lastly, 1 landraider might not last too long, running multiples of vehicles is usually wise. This is especially true if you still have hammernators without a ride.

For fun games I like to use this:

HQ
Belial - TH/SS

DW Command Squad - 4x TH/S, 1x HF/CF, Standard of Devestation

Techmarine - Bike, PFG

TROOPS
Deathwing Squad - 4x TH/S, 1x HF/CF
Deathwing Squad - 4x TH/S, 1x HF/CF

Dedicated Transports
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle
LRC - MM, Deathwing Vehicle

2000pts

Not overly competitive with 2 scoring units, but can be fun to play against the right armies.
Basically you try to bubble wrap the techmarine with tanks, to block LoS to him, and also give 4++ to all the landraiders.
The Devastation banner goes in the middle landraider, giving you 72 TL bolter shots from your landraiders a turn.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
There's no easy way, deathwing are naturally expensive units. Each squad will normally be around the 250 points mark.
So basically, you get to choose 4 squads or raiders per 1000 points

Just think about it in this way and you can get a good estimation of how many points an army will cost.

1000 points will normally be 3 squads + belial, or belial, 2 squads and a LRC.

1500 will be the same as above but with 10 more terminators, or another LRC and 5 terminators.


Your army will be small, that's why I really consider the lack of scoring on knights to be their greatest downfall.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
On the plus side, DW are one of the cheapest armies to collect.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I've personally taken the assault cannon off my dv terminator and given him a CML, its fairly easy to do. AC or AC and CF works fine as an alternative too.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

As for the knights, I don't think it's a problem using them as TH/SS termies. The only issue is if you are using a mix of knights and TH/SS in a list, which will confuse the opposition.
Is it proxying? Only to the slightest degree possible. They are terminators, they have storm shields, and a melee weapon for hitting . The only difference is the knights have robes and a few spikes on their weapons. Even players with only the slightest degree of sportsmanship should not have a problem with it as long as you tell them clearly before. This is much easier than trying to find thunderhammers for them.

 Eganize wrote:
I like Azreal just for the fexibility between wings. I myself find Verterans in Drop Pods do wonders... Paired WITH Deathwing it could be fun. Run the Termies as your troops and add the Vets for added tank punch. Also, the DA have the ability to take a Mortis Dreadnought (which is in my book, sweet).

 Deuce11 wrote:
DW units are so expensive for what they do that atm, i only run normal DWT. I do not run a Command Squad and I do not run DWKs. BUT i run mixed wing. When I run more pure DW then the DWKs get a slot.

In my DWT units of 5, each has a heavy (an AC or a CML for take all comer lists), a chain fist, a TH/SS for tanking wounds, and a power weapon on the Sarge. That's it.

Unfortunately, as you may have read, DW is not very competitive. So, some ways around it are (1) asking for a homebrew exception which brings back the 2xHeavy Weapons per 5 terminators, where the second of the same is free, (2) use the forgeworld rules for a heresy era army and build from there. Those rules can allow for a pure DW and/or allows some other awesome sauce like giving your classic DA "Mortis" TL-AC dreadnought sky-fire for free when they don't move in the movement phase. That opens up room for other things when you don't need dedicated AA.

Just my thoughts.

Not sur if you are interested in a "mixed wing" army but here is my list that has had mixed results:

Belial
TDA Libbi w/ PFG

DWT - PW, CML, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS

Tac Squad x10, ML, Fl., Rhino, & some other goodies
Scout Squad x5

Ravenwing Bikes x3, Pl, melta-bombs
Attack Bike w/ MM

TLAC Dreadnought
TLAC Dreadnought

Total 2000

I am considering a techmarine on bike with PFG instead of the Libbi since nearly everything is TL'ed anyway and so Prescience is not all that important. That's been my game experience

DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
2 command squads is not worth it. You lose a scoring unit to do it, and the FNP banner is the only one which is really useful.

The deathwing banner effects models in 6, not units, and is therefore the shortest ranged DA banner. Normally it will only effect the squad carrying it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

The upgrade is not optional for DW taking them as a dedicated transport I'm afraid.

The FAQ allows players taking them as a heavy support option to make them a deathwing vehicle, it does not remove the requirement if they are taken as a dedicated transport.

 Deuce11 wrote:

 dalekslayer96 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Point for point, deathwing is a fragile army. Although each model is individually tough, the cost of one guy is nearly as much as whole squads in other armies.

A terminator is on average 2 times tougher than a normal marine, but comes mat 3 times the price.

If the dice don't favour you, and you roll above the average number of ones, you can be tabled very fast.

Which is why some people buy FNP.... ooooohhh...
Looks like the best thing to do for DW is to get some dice designed to never roll ones, and some dice designed to roll normally.

Great, so I pay even more for an extra 6+ save on 5 models... genius! How come I didn't think of that?!

canadianguy wrote:
another thought is to take that 10 man squad with belial and take 3 drop pods. the 10 man squad drops in with 2 hf,mm dreads. the last drop pod is empty or uses a 5 man termie squad latter. gives you a huge alpha strike with good antitank and anti horde ie 2 cml, 2 hvy flamers and 2 multi melta. the rest of the army is a couple of 5 man termie squads for backfield objective parking.

 Deuce11 wrote:
I think the advantage is to be found more so in the Bolster Defenses special rule. Ruins becoming 3+ cover save as well as a mobile PFG is impressive for a model that is 15 points cheaper.