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 Darkaos wrote:
When ever I run my deathwing army I always onlyrun two squads from dark veng and I throw them in a grp of five extra terms with th/sh and add a cml, two squads of ten and a few extra five man squads of th/sh/cml.
Always run Belial and a lib in term arm that lets me have two comand squads with two baners and put the oponent under the pum of who to go first. Sadly I dont own a land raider so . Find things slow moving but I counter that with deep strike and always deep strike on turn one. I never run knights, a squad of five normal termies with th/sh is cheaper and the th hits harder than the rubber ball the knights have, and also knights cant have a cml so thats another bonus.
Not sure if any of that helps but I have a lot of fun with it and my opponent's faces are always fun when they see a blob of ten drop in with fnp right next to big costing squads and I just split fire then charge and mow them down.
Happy hunting

OK, always run Belial with a Librarian in Terminator Armour... Check.
Although I don't see why you would want to field 2 command squads. Isn't that rather pricey?
So what is your army list? Could I take a look at the full thing + points cost?

I like Azreal just for the fexibility between wings. I myself find Verterans in Drop Pods do wonders... Paired WITH Deathwing it could be fun. Run the Termies as your troops and add the Vets for added tank punch. Also, the DA have the ability to take a Mortis Dreadnought (which is in my book, sweet).

DW units are so expensive for what they do that atm, i only run normal DWT. I do not run a Command Squad and I do not run DWKs. BUT i run mixed wing. When I run more pure DW then the DWKs get a slot.

In my DWT units of 5, each has a heavy (an AC or a CML for take all comer lists), a chain fist, a TH/SS for tanking wounds, and a power weapon on the Sarge. That's it.

Unfortunately, as you may have read, DW is not very competitive. So, some ways around it are (1) asking for a homebrew exception which brings back the 2xHeavy Weapons per 5 terminators, where the second of the same is free, (2) use the forgeworld rules for a heresy era army and build from there. Those rules can allow for a pure DW and/or allows some other awesome sauce like giving your classic DA "Mortis" TL-AC dreadnought sky-fire for free when they don't move in the movement phase. That opens up room for other things when you don't need dedicated AA.

Just my thoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sur if you are interested in a "mixed wing" army but here is my list that has had mixed results:

Belial
TDA Libbi w/ PFG

DWT - PW, CML, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS

Tac Squad x10, ML, Fl., Rhino, & some other goodies
Scout Squad x5

Ravenwing Bikes x3, Pl, melta-bombs
Attack Bike w/ MM

TLAC Dreadnought
TLAC Dreadnought

Total 2000

I am considering a techmarine on bike with PFG instead of the Libbi since nearly everything is TL'ed anyway and so Prescience is not all that important. That's been my game experience

 Eganize wrote:
I like Azreal just for the fexibility between wings. I myself find Verterans in Drop Pods do wonders... Paired WITH Deathwing it could be fun. Run the Termies as your troops and add the Vets for added tank punch. Also, the DA have the ability to take a Mortis Dreadnought (which is in my book, sweet).

Company Veteran Squads sound like a decent investment for 2500 - 3000 pts games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deuce11 wrote:
DW units are so expensive for what they do that atm, i only run normal DWT. I do not run a Command Squad and I do not run DWKs. BUT i run mixed wing. When I run more pure DW then the DWKs get a slot.

In my DWT units of 5, each has a heavy (an AC or a CML for take all comer lists), a chain fist, a TH/SS for tanking wounds, and a power weapon on the Sarge. That's it.

Unfortunately, as you may have read, DW is not very competitive. So, some ways around it are (1) asking for a homebrew exception which brings back the 2xHeavy Weapons per 5 terminators, where the second of the same is free, (2) use the forgeworld rules for a heresy era army and build from there. Those rules can allow for a pure DW and/or allows some other awesome sauce like giving your classic DA "Mortis" TL-AC dreadnought sky-fire for free when they don't move in the movement phase. That opens up room for other things when you don't need dedicated AA.

Just my thoughts.

Not sur if you are interested in a "mixed wing" army but here is my list that has had mixed results:

Belial
TDA Libbi w/ PFG

DWT - PW, CML, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS

Tac Squad x10, ML, Fl., Rhino, & some other goodies
Scout Squad x5

Ravenwing Bikes x3, Pl, melta-bombs
Attack Bike w/ MM

TLAC Dreadnought
TLAC Dreadnought

Total 2000

I am considering a techmarine on bike with PFG instead of the Libbi since nearly everything is TL'ed anyway and so Prescience is not all that important. That's been my game experience

TBH I'm not looking for a competitive army. I just want an army that will fare well in friendly games. If it's competitive then I consider that a bonus.
So from what I've seen so far, DW Knights are more of an aesthetic and fluffy unit, but not very good.
Forge World? OMG those guys are overpricing their miniatures. Just because it's resin doesn't mean it should be more expensive! Anyways, I have not had a chance to look at the Horus Heresy expansions, hopefully I will get some sometime in the future.
I quite like your "DeathRaven" army. Lots of scoring units and some nice Fast Attack.

DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

2 command squads is not worth it. You lose a scoring unit to do it, and the FNP banner is the only one which is really useful.

The deathwing banner effects models in 6, not units, and is therefore the shortest ranged DA banner. Normally it will only effect the squad carrying it.

DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

The upgrade is not optional for DW taking them as a dedicated transport I'm afraid.

The FAQ allows players taking them as a heavy support option to make them a deathwing vehicle, it does not remove the requirement if they are taken as a dedicated transport.

draegen wrote:
DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

Nope, not gonna happen. Seriously? DW Vehicle is compulsory for Dedicated Transport for DW Terminators of any sort, while it is optional for a Heavy Support choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
2 command squads is not worth it. You lose a scoring unit to do it, and the FNP banner is the only one which is really useful.

The deathwing banner effects models in 6, not units, and is therefore the shortest ranged DA banner. Normally it will only effect the squad carrying it.

This is the first thing I learned on this thread.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

DW vehicle upgrade for LR is optional now. It's in the FAQ, so you can still take them as dedicated transport.

The upgrade is not optional for DW taking them as a dedicated transport I'm afraid.

The FAQ allows players taking them as a heavy support option to make them a deathwing vehicle, it does not remove the requirement if they are taken as a dedicated transport.

What I said. (After you )

Still this issue shouldn't matter much. With DW army most of the time your landraiders are going to be your heavy support, unless you are bringing some vindicators or FW stuff along.

The reason you want them as heavy support is for the BGNT mission scenario, where they become scoring units.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Still this issue shouldn't matter much. With DW army most of the time your landraiders are going to be your heavy support, unless you are bringing some vindicators or FW stuff along.

The reason you want them as heavy support is for the BGNT mission scenario, where they become scoring units.

Ooooh... good point! BGNT and The Scouring are usually the moments me and my opponent have to reroll the dice. All because we both don't have Heavy Support/Fast Attack.

 dalekslayer96 wrote:

 Eganize wrote:
I like Azreal just for the fexibility between wings. I myself find Verterans in Drop Pods do wonders... Paired WITH Deathwing it could be fun. Run the Termies as your troops and add the Vets for added tank punch. Also, the DA have the ability to take a Mortis Dreadnought (which is in my book, sweet).

Company Veteran Squads sound like a decent investment for 2500 - 3000 pts games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deuce11 wrote:
DW units are so expensive for what they do that atm, i only run normal DWT. I do not run a Command Squad and I do not run DWKs. BUT i run mixed wing. When I run more pure DW then the DWKs get a slot.

In my DWT units of 5, each has a heavy (an AC or a CML for take all comer lists), a chain fist, a TH/SS for tanking wounds, and a power weapon on the Sarge. That's it.

Unfortunately, as you may have read, DW is not very competitive. So, some ways around it are (1) asking for a homebrew exception which brings back the 2xHeavy Weapons per 5 terminators, where the second of the same is free, (2) use the forgeworld rules for a heresy era army and build from there. Those rules can allow for a pure DW and/or allows some other awesome sauce like giving your classic DA "Mortis" TL-AC dreadnought sky-fire for free when they don't move in the movement phase. That opens up room for other things when you don't need dedicated AA.

Just my thoughts.

Not sur if you are interested in a "mixed wing" army but here is my list that has had mixed results:

Belial
TDA Libbi w/ PFG

DWT - PW, CML, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS

Tac Squad x10, ML, Fl., Rhino, & some other goodies
Scout Squad x5

Ravenwing Bikes x3, Pl, melta-bombs
Attack Bike w/ MM

TLAC Dreadnought
TLAC Dreadnought

Total 2000

I am considering a techmarine on bike with PFG instead of the Libbi since nearly everything is TL'ed anyway and so Prescience is not all that important. That's been my game experience

TBH I'm not looking for a competitive army. I just want an army that will fare well in friendly games. If it's competitive then I consider that a bonus.
So from what I've seen so far, DW Knights are more of an aesthetic and fluffy unit, but not very good.
Forge World? OMG those guys are overpricing their miniatures. Just because it's resin doesn't mean it should be more expensive! Anyways, I have not had a chance to look at the Horus Heresy expansions, hopefully I will get some sometime in the future.
I quite like your "DeathRaven" army. Lots of scoring units and some nice Fast Attack.

Well the reality is I do try to play competitively and DW just don't cut the mustard. You need to think competitively just to have an enjoyable game with DW cause otherwise you'll get spanked every time. DW just doesn't make for a strong list. Too fragile and too few tools and too costly.

 Deuce11 wrote:

 dalekslayer96 wrote:

 Eganize wrote:
I like Azreal just for the fexibility between wings. I myself find Verterans in Drop Pods do wonders... Paired WITH Deathwing it could be fun. Run the Termies as your troops and add the Vets for added tank punch. Also, the DA have the ability to take a Mortis Dreadnought (which is in my book, sweet).

Company Veteran Squads sound like a decent investment for 2500 - 3000 pts games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deuce11 wrote:
DW units are so expensive for what they do that atm, i only run normal DWT. I do not run a Command Squad and I do not run DWKs. BUT i run mixed wing. When I run more pure DW then the DWKs get a slot.

In my DWT units of 5, each has a heavy (an AC or a CML for take all comer lists), a chain fist, a TH/SS for tanking wounds, and a power weapon on the Sarge. That's it.

Unfortunately, as you may have read, DW is not very competitive. So, some ways around it are (1) asking for a homebrew exception which brings back the 2xHeavy Weapons per 5 terminators, where the second of the same is free, (2) use the forgeworld rules for a heresy era army and build from there. Those rules can allow for a pure DW and/or allows some other awesome sauce like giving your classic DA "Mortis" TL-AC dreadnought sky-fire for free when they don't move in the movement phase. That opens up room for other things when you don't need dedicated AA.

Just my thoughts.

Not sur if you are interested in a "mixed wing" army but here is my list that has had mixed results:

Belial
TDA Libbi w/ PFG

DWT - PW, CML, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS
DWT - PW, AC, CF, TH/SS

Tac Squad x10, ML, Fl., Rhino, & some other goodies
Scout Squad x5

Ravenwing Bikes x3, Pl, melta-bombs
Attack Bike w/ MM

TLAC Dreadnought
TLAC Dreadnought

Total 2000

I am considering a techmarine on bike with PFG instead of the Libbi since nearly everything is TL'ed anyway and so Prescience is not all that important. That's been my game experience

TBH I'm not looking for a competitive army. I just want an army that will fare well in friendly games. If it's competitive then I consider that a bonus.
So from what I've seen so far, DW Knights are more of an aesthetic and fluffy unit, but not very good.
Forge World? OMG those guys are overpricing their miniatures. Just because it's resin doesn't mean it should be more expensive! Anyways, I have not had a chance to look at the Horus Heresy expansions, hopefully I will get some sometime in the future.
I quite like your "DeathRaven" army. Lots of scoring units and some nice Fast Attack.

Well the reality is I do try to play competitively and DW just don't cut the mustard. You need to think competitively just to have an enjoyable game with DW cause otherwise you'll get spanked every time. DW just doesn't make for a strong list. Too fragile and too few tools and too costly.

Too fragile? So 2+/5++ and sometimes 2+/3++ is fragile? How?

Point for point, deathwing is a fragile army. Although each model is individually tough, the cost of one guy is nearly as much as whole squads in other armies.

A terminator is on average 2 times tougher than a normal marine, but comes mat 3 times the price.

If the dice don't favour you, and you roll above the average number of ones, you can be tabled very fast.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Point for point, deathwing is a fragile army. Although each model is individually tough, the cost of one guy is nearly as much as whole squads in other armies.

A terminator is on average 2 times tougher than a normal marine, but comes mat 3 times the price.

If the dice don't favour you, and you roll above the average number of ones, you can be tabled very fast.

Thanks!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Point for point, deathwing is a fragile army. Although each model is individually tough, the cost of one guy is nearly as much as whole squads in other armies.

A terminator is on average 2 times tougher than a normal marine, but comes mat 3 times the price.

If the dice don't favour you, and you roll above the average number of ones, you can be tabled very fast.

Which is why some people buy FNP.... ooooohhh...
Looks like the best thing to do for DW is to get some dice designed to never roll ones, and some dice designed to roll normally.

 dalekslayer96 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Point for point, deathwing is a fragile army. Although each model is individually tough, the cost of one guy is nearly as much as whole squads in other armies.

A terminator is on average 2 times tougher than a normal marine, but comes mat 3 times the price.

If the dice don't favour you, and you roll above the average number of ones, you can be tabled very fast.

Which is why some people buy FNP.... ooooohhh...
Looks like the best thing to do for DW is to get some dice designed to never roll ones, and some dice designed to roll normally.

Great, so I pay even more for an extra 6+ save on 5 models... genius! How come I didn't think of that?!

Great, so I pay even more for an extra 6+ save on 5 models... genius! How come I didn't think of that?!

6+ save? What do you mean? FNP is 5+

The FNP banner works well with terminators due to their high points cost. If you manage to make 2 FNP saves then you have more than made your points back, anything else is just a bonus.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Great, so I pay even more for an extra 6+ save on 5 models... genius! How come I didn't think of that?!

6+ save? What do you mean? FNP is 5+

The FNP banner works well with terminators due to their high points cost. If you manage to make 2 FNP saves then you have more than made your points back, anything else is just a bonus.

i thought it was 6+ unless stated otherwise because BGB is 6+. i.e. Blood Angels Codex states FNP on a 5+ for Sang. Priests. Please correct me if I am wrong.

My BRB says it's 5+ unless stated otherwise. (ie: Feel No Pain (3+))

Blood Angels says 5+ specifically because it is from an older edition, when FNP in the BRB used to be 4+.

The reason to play Deathwing Knights is simple: It's a unit that's going to start on the table, alongside your Land Raider (which you buy as a heavy support option therefore it counts for your Force Org). Plus they are about the only thing in the codex capable of handling monstrous creatures, so there's that.

Because you can still only deep strike half the force, often times you'll need one other type of unit on the table. I highly recommend a Whirlwind, as you can hide it behind a building on that first turn and utilize it as indirect fire.

Some things to keep in mind with your regular terminator squads:

Those Heavy Weapons are brutal the first turn you land as it's all twin-linked. If you're bringing a lot of deathwing guys, bringing multiple tools to the table rather than just making all of them Cyclone Launchers is a good idea.

Because Belial and the squad he's part of don't scatter and therefore shouldn't mishap, make his squad 10 guys. I highly recommend one of them be rocking a heavy flamer.
1: You can't assault the turn you deepstrike so if they have any units that want to assault you, it's guaranteed hits in overwatch.
2: No cover saves and AP4 means you'll obliterate any scoring unit from a lot of the armies you'll struggle against. You can use just this single lone guy on the turn you drop in to eat an entire Firewarrior/Pathfinder squad, any Guardians not hiding in a wave serpent, or a huge chunk of orks.
3: Twin-linked Heavy Flamer is nasty. Guaranteed hits on multiple targets when you can reroll wounds on T5 strength is pretty neat.

Another trick you can do with Deathwing regarding Cyclone Missile Launchers: the guy using it can take lightning claws or a TH/SS upgrade still. The way it's worded in the FAQ is "any terminator may exchange his storm bolter and power fist for". You're not going to be firing his Storm Bolter ever anyway so there is no downside to doing it.

Some good advice there. I wish I had extra points for a shield on my CML!

I wouldn't start off with knights standing alongside the landraider though. They should be inside it.

I tend to put my belial inside a landraider more often than not. This way the range of his teleport homer is greatly increased, and he can assault the turn he gets into range of the enemy.

TL heavy flamer is nice, but paying a minimum of 410 points to do it is a little much. If you like it that much then take ravenwing landspeeders with dual Heavy flamers and deepstrike them. They might only land accurately 1/3rd of the time, but at 60 points each you could have nearly 7 for the same cost lol.

I'm not sure about a squad of 10 either. 10 terminators in one squad cuts down on your scoring units, and allows you less versatility when it comes to dealing with multiple targets. You can only split fire 1 weapon remember.

I didn't think you could legally start a unit inside a transport that is not a dedicated transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Began comparing a biker Techmarine with servo harness and PFG vs. Terminator Libbi with PFG and combi-plasma or melt bombs and what you get is a very difficult choice!

The TDA Libbi is better with a 2+, 5++ although the PFG (4+ Cover) which both of them have makes this rather negligible.

Techmarine is better at shooting (Plasma cutter/flamer)

Techmarine is far better at CC (HoW, servo harness attacks which can be increased with Digi Lasers for only 10 more points) albeit no force weapon.

Libbi has an extra wound

Libbi has +2 Ld (10 vs 8)

Techmarine can bolster defenses and therefore spreads the cover save love around even more.

Techmarine has better movement.

Techmarine can fix AV

Libbi can cast Prescience.

IMO the biker techmarine is the sleeper (non-compulsory) HQ of the codex!

I didn't think you could legally start a unit inside a transport that is not a dedicated transport.

Any unit may start the game in a vehicle if it has the transport capacity. However if a vehicle is a dedicated transport then only the squad that was purchased with the vehicle may begin the game in it.
If you get the landraider from heavy support, then any unit that can fit inside it may start the game there.

As for your discussion on terminator libby or techmarine on bike. The answer is a techmarine.

However if you changed this to techmarine on bike vs librarian on bike, then the librarian in most cases becomes better.

Because of the changes in the DA FAQ, the PFG now only works when outside of a vehicle. Therefore if you wish to protect a landraider using the PFG, then the bike becomes necessary to keep up.

The librarian is better because he can provide some support whilst keeping out of sight (you got him for protection, not to cause damage). The librarian is also slightly more durable, as his 2 wounds gives him an edge over the techmarine when faced with high ap weapons like plasma.

The techmarine still has the advantage of being able to repair a vehicle though.

I think the advantage is to be found more so in the Bolster Defenses special rule. Ruins becoming 3+ cover save as well as a mobile PFG is impressive for a model that is 15 points cheaper.

Prescience and psychic resistance can be useful tools as well however.

Bolster defenses is good with a gunline army. But Deathwing should not be doing this, as point for point their shooting is terrible.

I was using PFG (Libbi) to protect my TLAC Dreads. Witht he Biker Tech, I'll be using bolster defenses for that now and the PFG for protecting... well... whatever needs it.

Their shooting does stink, doesn't it! I am waiting for GW to release an Errata giving skyfire and interceptor to Mortis dreads just like FW has done in HH.

Just use the forgeworld rules. Mortis and mortis contemptor dreads already get skyfire and intercept if they did not move in the movement phase.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just use the forgeworld rules. Mortis and mortis contemptor dreads already get skyfire and intercept if they did not move in the movement phase.

Yeah that is what i was referring to but i do not want to use the generic legion rules in order to use the dreadnought rules; and you KNOW there are local opponents that will bring up that point.

Wait I wasn't the one who suggested that anyway.

Man my brain is gone.

another thought is to take that 10 man squad with belial and take 3 drop pods. the 10 man squad drops in with 2 hf,mm dreads. the last drop pod is empty or uses a 5 man termie squad latter. gives you a huge alpha strike with good antitank and anti horde ie 2 cml, 2 hvy flamers and 2 multi melta. the rest of the army is a couple of 5 man termie squads for backfield objective parking.