<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Eldar codex"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Eldar codex"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Eldar codex relics the same

equpment changes
Bikes cost 25pts
Holofields are 5++

HQ:
Eldrad- 180pts (rest stays the same)
Prince YRiel- 125pts may re roll all failed rolls of 1 in cc(keeps re-roll of 6 for save)
Illiac Night Spear- 125 pts (pathfinders are additional 10pts)
All Phoenix Lords- +1 W, +1 A, 5++
Asurman-200 pts
JainZar-same
Karandras- 230 pts
Feugen 220 pts
Bahamoth 200pts (NON SCATTER deep strike with any unit attached to.)
Maugen ra- 200pts magenator 48" str8/5 ap3 hv 2 pinning or Hv4
(+3 str ap3 in melee)
Avatar(lord of war)- S/T 6 6w, 6A, 4++, fnp- 260 pts (keeps all else the same)(jump MC)
Autarch-
May take sniper rifle 5 pts, Can take exarch equipment and gains their basic special rules if he buys the path. Also may take the exarch's baught skills if pays for them. That path makes them troops. 30 pts a path. Max one.
farseer same
spiritseer same
warlock 30pts

Troops
Dire Avengers-13pts
Guardians-9pts/model lose 1 ws, plateforms cost 10 pts less.
storm guardians-9pts- loses 1 bs, 3 pts a flammer, 5 pts a fusion pistol(2/10) 10 pts a power sword.(2/10), (2/10=2 PER 10 models)
Windrider- 18pts keep ws/bs save becomes 4+
Rangers gain CCW

Dedicated transport
Wave serpent- 85pts, shield 6" range, shield turns pen into a glance on a 3+, assault ramp (20pts)
Falcon-120pts. assault ramp (20pts)
(Laser Lock- +10pts on any model that two or more weapons can be fired)

Elite
Banshee- gain furios charge(-1pt/model)
Scorpions mandiblaster str 4 ap/(+1A)
Fire dragons- 20pts/model
wraithguard- same as in rules

Fast attack
Hawks- same as in book
Spiders- same as in book
(assault spiders) trade in death spitter gain shuriken pistol and rending claw(spider)
Shining spears 24pts/model (+1A)
Crimson hunter- 140pts/model (max 2 per detachment)
Vyper same as in rule book(-5Pts)
Hemlock- 160pts

Heavy
Dark reapers-5 pts str shot missile, group upgrade Sky fire (50pts)
Vaul Battery- max 5 per unit.
Fire Prism 120pts
Night spinner- 105pts (flammer gains ap5)
Falcon- heavy(if not dedicated)120pts
Wraith lord-110 base, -10pts for weapon upgrades.
Wraith Knight- 250 pts base, 30 pts suncannon/shield(max 2 per detachment and not before 1000 pts, for the first and 1500 pts for the second)

Detachment
1-2Hq
2-6 Troops
0-4 Elites
0-4 Fast attack
0-5 Dedicated Transport(maximum number)
0-4 Heavy
0-1LOW
(may take 1 unit of Elites, fast attack, or heavy without it taking an organization slot)

Formations
Pheonix Lord Formation
Must take 3 Squads of that unit
Must take the Pheonix Lord
The squads must have the maximum number of squad members
The unit must each have an Exarch
(They all members of this formation, while the Phoenix Lord is alive, Gain Feel No Pain and Fearless.

Ranger Formation
1 Unit of rangers
Cost 30pts
each 2 rangers in Formation can make a unit, each unit gains shrouded in place of stealth.

Wraithlord Formation
3 wraithlords
Become one unit and take up one heavy slot.

Young Kings Court
1 avatar of kain
1-3 of each exarch (pay model + exarch upgrade cost)
(0-3 shining spears exarch)
All special rules are transfered to the group(acrobatics,stealth..)(this does not transfer specific wargear items only exarch powers and equipment that affect the unit)
(example exarch jump pack does not work but shimmershield 5++ does)
Count as Toughness 6 when being fired at or in melee unless targeting individual character in combat.

The Last Hope
1 Eldrad
4 units of Guardian Defenders
8 units of Warlocks
2 warlocks can go with each guardian squad, the warlocks cannot take the primaris and instead has embolden as the primaris power)
(if Embolden rolled while rolling for psychic powers re-roll that dice)
(The psycher automaticly has the shrouded special rule)

Sky hunter
3 Crimson Hunters
takes up one fast attack slot
Can re-roll failed armor pens but has the get hots formation(one use)

IF you want discuss any changes, display pro/cons.
I tried my best to balance the codex by reducing the good things strengths and making the poor choices a little better.
I limited my creativity with new units/abilities and tried to just balance(of course the Autarch needed paths)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7646701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7646701.page GMT Re:Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7649433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7649433.page GMT Re:Eldar codex cost of bikes seams a little high if they don't have a 3+ save

Karandras would be to good for the points.

give avatar 12" move maybe.

dire avengers and guardians too cheap I think the're good as they are. 10 guardians and a scatter laser for 90pts would be too cheap.

love the idea of assault spiders.

I think cutting points for vypers.

adding an attack for wraith gaurd and shining spears would be nice.
5 wounds on a wraith knight maybe
and allowing warlocks to join aspects with the corresponding gear would be awesome.
how cool would a warlock warps spider or scorpion be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7650755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7650755.page GMT Eldar codex

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what would you change Scatter Lasers to?

I was hoping something like "If a 6 is rolled to hit, increase the BS of the rest of the weapons fired on this vehicle by 1. This does not work on Snap Shots and does not affect a vehicles Serpent Shield shooting attack."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, increase the cost to 15-20 points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7650758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7650758.page GMT Re:Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7651160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7651160.page GMT Re:Eldar codex

Slayer222 wrote:
Why increase the cost when I just nerfed the shield so that if it's used the serpent is almost guaranteed to die?

Why increase the cost of the Scatter Laser? Because for what it does now (Even not including the Serpent Shield) is ridiculous for 5 points. So regardless, even if they don't change what it does, it needs to be more expensive. Also, Wraithknights can take it, and I'd rather see BS5 Suncannons instead of Twin linked ones. And Wraithknights are cheap for what they are already.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7652195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7652195.page GMT Eldar codex
How many points would you think a stock Serpent should be, assuming the Shield were nerfed appropriately?

Note this is 3xS6 @ 24", 2xS4 @12, and no Holofields.

(Next question would be weapon costs)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kron - how's this for another way to do it?
Laser Lock: If this weapon scores a hit, choose one other weapon on the same model. That weapon gets +1 to its to-hit roll, even if it fires snapshots.

Notes about this:
-Serpent Shield isn't a weapon until fired, so couldn't be affected
-Limit 1 weapon
-It would make Laser Lock be guidance when the pilot can't target well (snap shots), which seems about right for what it is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7654095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7654095.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:
I wish we played points for the Serpent chassis when we bought it, and the gun upgrades when we bought them.

How many points would you think a stock Serpent should be, assuming the Shield were nerfed appropriately?

Note this is 3xS6 @ 24", 2xS4 @12, and no Holofields.

(Next question would be weapon costs)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kron - how's this for another way to do it?
Laser Lock: If this weapon scores a hit, choose one other weapon on the same model. That weapon gets +1 to its to-hit roll, even if it fires snapshots.

Notes about this:
-Serpent Shield isn't a weapon until fired, so couldn't be affected
-Limit 1 weapon
-It would make Laser Lock be guidance when the pilot can't target well (snap shots), which seems about right for what it is.

I think for how it is stock, the Wave Serpent should be about 115 points or so. That my personal opinion. I'm comparing it to my Ghost ark, which is 105. Is has slightly worse AV, but isn't open topped (which is a boon and a curse, arguably), and doesn't have to worry about being pinned, that of which it has the Serpent shield for anyway. It's Fast, which makes a big difference, and has decent weaponry.

And I still don't think Laser Lock should be one just any hit. I think it should be on a hit of a 6, and doesn't work on snap shots, since thats how a lot of things are going nowadays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659614.page GMT Re:Eldar codex Also I compare the serpent more to the tau vehicle that is way overcosted and has some firepower since it is more similar including wargear.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659650.page GMT Eldar codex
I think I'd like more customized formations for each phoenix lord's formation, but this is a pretty good way to handle them all with one formation. Why only two crimson hunters in an army? Is it a matter of durability? What would you think of allowing up to three hunters, but only 1 exarch? Or possibly having a "shrine of the Hunter" formation that allows you to take 3 of them as a single fast attack slot or something?

I like the changes to the serpent, but a 30 point assault ramp seems like it might possibly be a bit overcosted considering it's semi-mandatory for our assault units to function.

I'd rather not see the scatter laser complicated. If people feel that it's too good as is, how about upping the cost slightly and calling it good? Say 10 or 15 points for its range/firepower, then another 5 for unmodified laser lock? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7659684.page GMT Eldar codex The Ghost Ark has 20x s4ap5 at 24"
Stock Serpent has 3x S6ap5 at 24", plus 2x s4ap5 at 12, all with Bladestorm (less than 1 ap2 hit every other round).

Stock Serpent has higher S, but 1/4 to 1/6 the shots. Occasional AP2, but not much.

For durability, its Open Topped AV13 till the first pen vs av12 most-pens-glance. In 6th, that pen reduction was huge. Its still nice now, but not as critical, because most things are hulled out. Likewise, in 6th, the AV of the Ark going down rarely seemed to matter, but now it does.

I'd argue mild advantage Serpent, but I wouldn't dismiss it being a large advantage.

Then comes roles.
GA is open topped, supporting the Silver Tide with faster-moving impending doom (I love that feel, playing against them). So vehicle closes to within 24", and lets fly a pair of blistering salvos - 20 shots from the vehicle, plus the guys inside. If it jinks, it snapfires, guys in side don't. If it moved more than 6", guys inside jink.

Stock Serpent is a brick that deposits guys where they need to go. Better than a heavy bolter, but very few shots. Short-range guys hop out before shooting. Then are usually super a vulnerable to firing, while the Ghost Ark protects the guys inside while they fire.

So the Ghost Ark has better dakka, and is a solid platform to fight from, while being quite durable.

Stock Serpent is a more durable delivery platform, with better durability. But has to deliver its contents before they can engage, then has mild support capability.

Seems light advantage Ghost Ark to me. With that comparison, seems 100 pt Serpent to a 105 Ghost Ark might be appropriate? (Strong hike on upgrades though. Should pay for the firepower!)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer:

I like a lot of what you have.

Avatar:
Should the Avatar really be t8? Wraithlords, definitely. But the Avatar, while powerful, is more of a threat due to his skill. WS/BS/I 10 are amazing. T6 with lots of wounds l makes him durable against small arms, but not unkillable.
As for Jump MC, does he really fit that? Yes, he's a badass. But does he really move around that well? GW seems to hand it out like candy, sure, but there is a reason everyone hates it.
If you want to buff the Avatar, perhaps do it more along the lines of skill? Like, give CW Eldar (or all Eldar?) +1 WS/BS/I within 12" of him? Or Hatred or PE?
Also, seems like a reasonable candidate for a LoW, if we wanted.

Autarch:
Perhaps this entry needs to be split.
Fluff-wise, aside from the culture of hero worship among Eldar, any random Aspect Warrior should be much better at that Path than an Autarch. An Exarch, even more so.
An Autarch is a master strategist. Not to be confused with the inspiring presence and tactical direction of an IG officer. Every Aspect Warrior is completely competent in the tactics of their Path. So, where an IG Officer might get better performance barking tactical commands at the grunts, an Aspect Warrior would already know how to apply itself best. What Tue Autarch knows is when and where he needs those Dire Avengers. What the Aspect Warriors know, and the Autarch might not, is what firing pattern is optimal for that target at this distance with these weapons.
So things like Reserve manipulation is optimal. Or perhaps some Deployment shenanigans. Or bonus Warlord trait(s). Possibly without even being the Warlord.

The Autarch does spend some time training at some Aspect shrines. And is thus allowed to take some Aspect gear. But they aren't even fully trained in that aspect. Much less be lost on its path/ consumed with obsession for the aspect. So Exarch powers (or even Exarch gear) seems a bit much. Mechanically, an Autarch can kick the snot out of most Exarch, sure, but that's because that's how this game does HQ slots. Fluffwise, Autarchs aren't beat sticks. Or even combat heros. They are strategists.

So perhaps we should add a more-experienced Exarch as an HQ choice, for a combat specialist. So Eldar can have a beatstick. I think I've seen people use the term 'Xentarch'. As Exarch get more experienced in their unique style, they get better. They should run the spectrum between Aspect Warrior (newly lost on the path) and Phoenix Lord (First students of Asurmen's students should be really good, but not at the level of Phoenix Lord). Older and more experienced than 'normal' Exarch, they would have a lot more options in terms of tools of the trade and skills.

Another option is a Prince. Eldar are still deeply feudalist in nature. Princes(es) are still thought of incredibly highly, even though modern CW Eldar give them no place in a Warhost. But a Prince might take to the Path of Strategy, while truly being guided by their hubris. So they focus on being legendary combatants, even if they don't realize it, instead of strategy. This is, effectively, what Yriel is. How I read his fluff, he's an old-school prince, who bucked the modern CW Eldar combat doctrine. An Autarch in little more than name.

I like the idea of Autarchs picking Paths. But, while that should open up Aspect Warrior gear and sometimes skills, Exarch gear and skills are still far beyond their grasp. As for making things Troops, (1) the game is moving away from that, in favor of formations, and (2), even with a Warp Spider - trained Autarch, their role is to use more than just that Aspect on the field. So I would think allow multiple paths (perhaps more for each additional). And, instead of Troops-ing the Aspect, he may choose one unit of that Aspect to be Obsec (gets them in the right place at the right time).

As for Assault Ramps, I like my Eldar without them. I wouldn't have a problem with the option being added though, assuming the cost is sufficient to make it at-best reasonable.

Banshees
Perhaps another solution for Banshees would be to add this to Acrobatic:
-May use a Run move to disembark from a CW Eldar transport during the Shooting phase, even if the Transport moved more than 6" or Flat Outed. Any restrictions on shooting or charging remain in effect.
This would let them get into place a round earlier, and use the transport for one less round. But wouldn't violate the whole one-turn-of-vulnerability doctrine the rules around this enforce. So everyone would be happy, I think.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7660251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7660251.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:
Kron -
The Ghost Ark has 20x s4ap5 at 24"
Stock Serpent has 3x S6ap5 at 24", plus 2x s4ap5 at 12, all with Bladestorm (less than 1 ap2 hit every other round).

Stock Serpent has higher S, but 1/4 to 1/6 the shots. Occasional AP2, but not much.

For durability, its Open Topped AV13 till the first pen vs av12 most-pens-glance. In 6th, that pen reduction was huge. Its still nice now, but not as critical, because most things are hulled out. Likewise, in 6th, the AV of the Ark going down rarely seemed to matter, but now it does.

I'd argue mild advantage Serpent, but I wouldn't dismiss it being a large advantage.

Then comes roles.
GA is open topped, supporting the Silver Tide with faster-moving impending doom (I love that feel, playing against them). So vehicle closes to within 24", and lets fly a pair of blistering salvos - 20 shots from the vehicle, plus the guys inside. If it jinks, it snapfires, guys in side don't. If it moved more than 6", guys inside jink.

Stock Serpent is a brick that deposits guys where they need to go. Better than a heavy bolter, but very few shots. Short-range guys hop out before shooting. Then are usually super a vulnerable to firing, while the Ghost Ark protects the guys inside while they fire.

So the Ghost Ark has better dakka, and is a solid platform to fight from, while being quite durable.

Stock Serpent is a more durable delivery platform, with better durability. But has to deliver its contents before they can engage, then has mild support capability.

Seems light advantage Ghost Ark to me. With that comparison, seems 100 pt Serpent to a 105 Ghost Ark might be appropriate? (Strong hike on upgrades though. Should pay for the firepower!)

100 points wouldn't be too bad, as long as the serpent shield isn't the same. The argument I have is my Ghost ark has to be within 24" to shoot at a serpent, in which it gets a better cover save (3+ typically), and I move slow. The Serpent shield glances me on 6s (same as my gauss shooting at a serpent) with no saves of any kind allowed, and can do this from 60" away. If that is fixed, I have no problem with the serpent costing 100 points base.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671173.page GMT Eldar codex WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671312.page GMT Eldar codex
-- A HQ is 70-100pts;
-- Troops are minimum 130pts;
-- Transport is minimum 200pts;

So at this point, we have no upgrades, 70-100pts free, and nothing significant to threaten the enemy with. Kind of a problem when I'm restricted to a single War Walker or Vaul battery as my fire support! Alternatively:

-- An HQ is 70-100pts;
-- Troops are about 130pts;
-- My transports double as heavy support, for about 250-300pts.

So basically, I decided to switch to Falcons. Given they are now DTs and can degrade the enemy (whereas Serpents cannot), Falcons are safer for my troops. I want an offensive option to wreck the enemy firepower, not a defensive option to deliver my troops before the untouched guns of the opponent. I understand the point of enabling more troop-centric play, but the WS and Falcon are the equivalent of an IFV. They have heavy support built into the transport. If too many points get sunk into toothless transports, you have little to threaten the enemy with in the first 1-2 turns. The alternative is you can do the Land Raider thing, where a killer short-range unit like Wraithblades/Wraithguard goes into a tough but relatively defensive transport. An expensive, defensively-oriented WS might end up being this. But if you're not transporting a killer unit, you end up with something like the Devilfish. Kroot are often taken as a tax, and the transport is avoided completely, even at a cheaper 80pts. I don't think the problem is survivability!

Transports are good for MSU when they're cheap. Eldar will need the equivalent of a Hilux (cheap, fast, open-topped) to do troop oriented MSU -- something like a Harlequin or DE transport basically. Maybe I don't see the bigger picture here, but I don't see Eldar simply foregoing long-range fire. How do all the pieces fit together?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671847.page GMT Eldar codex

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7671920.page GMT Eldar codex

krodarklorr wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...

They shouldn't when it comes to game balance/mechanics. Fluff-wise? Because they are older and more dedicated to combat than an Archon. Archons are no slouches when it comes to combat. They've probably got a few centuries if not a few millenia under their belts fighting things. However, not all of their time is dedicated to fighting. They have politicking to do. They enjoy hedonistic pleasures of various sorts. They are total BAMFs who probably deserve their high BS and WS.

Exarchs, however, are cut above that. They seem to be about as old as their craftworlds (so nearly 10,000 years while Vect is only about 7,000 years old iirc). They're defined by their complete obsession with combat. Each day not spent actively engaged in war is spent drilling with the same weaponry they've been using for millenia or else finding new weapons with which to be lethal. Their mind is a mosaic of every psycopath that has shared their collective obsession with combat and donned the exarch armor as a result meaning they have the combined lifetimes of violent experiences to draw on when fighting. By the time you've become an exarch, you're already ostricizing yourself from society because you can't have a conversation without moving or speaking like you're about to kill someone. Your every thought is colored red and filtered through a lense of violence. They are creatures that struggle to lift their thoughts above warfare, and thanks to the fact that some exarchs don't even have flesh and bone inside them any more (2nd edition eldar codex), part of their existence is spent theoretically not needing to pause for rest or nourishment. Every second combat. Every thought shaded by violence. Paused only by a lack of armor wearer. Every day. Since the Emperor was in diapers.

So yeah. Archons are cool and all, but from a fluff point of view, exarchs probably deserve to have the higher weapon skill of the two. And a death company guy being able to match them because he has a couple centuries (maybe) of combat experience under his belt and poor impulse control is almost comical. Nothing against death company. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672264.page GMT Eldar codex

Wyldhunt wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...

I mean, that was an awesome explanation and all, but sadly a lot of things in this game don't quite resemble how they should be. A Hive Tyrant having the same amount of wounds as a Chapter Master. The Necron LOW only have 3 wounds and no Eternal warrior, unlike every single other Space Marine LOW, even though Necrons are tougher and harder to actually kill. It sucks, but it's how the game itself turns out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672314.page GMT Eldar codex ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672362.page GMT Eldar codex

Wyldhunt wrote:
I sort of explain survivability issues with a hand wave of "plot armor." Marines are neat, but they really shouldn't get away with the stuff they do in many of the books. They basically have a cloak of action movie protection that helps keep t hem alive. I suppose a similar argument could be made for the offensive abilities of an archon/autarch compared to an exarch (the plot favors them thus making them more lethal), but I feel that action movie plot power is less directly a part of their characters than it is for marines.

That is a very good way of putting it. I usually just chalk it up to GW loves their babies. They get all the best toys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672385.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7672385.page GMT Eldar codex Wrt Exarch:
I don't think anyone seriously suggesting squad-Exarchs be raised to WS/bs 7. The thought was that the Autarch *shouldn't* be beefed up. If CW Eldar were to have a generic beatstick HQ, it should be something else, like an older Exarch or a Prince. It'd be nice, but we don't really need it.

Wrt Serpents and Shooting:
Even without Serpent Shield shooting, the Serpent can still do decent dakka. As a dakkaboat, its 7 s6 TL shots, albeit at 24". Not great for the price point, but survivability and maneuverability is what you're paying for.

Think of these two lists:
10xSM, Rhino x2
Predator

Vs
5xDA, Serpent x2

Any way you slice it, with the Serpent Shield shooting - even if not twin linked, the Serpents win hard. Too hard.

Drop Serpent Shooting to 6", and things become a lot more... right. And, if you need cheap mobile dakka, 70pts for 2xHeavy Weapons (WarWalker) does it incredibly well anyways.

I really don't envision a scenario where the Serpent Shield still shoots that far, and it being reasonable, short of Eldar becomming trash-tier overall.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673050.page GMT Re:Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634611.page

Here was my take on an update.

In regards to their force org, why would they get objective secured? The eldar only EVER hold a position if their craft world is invaded. They would not make the idea of it a core part of their tactical doctrine. If you wanted to give the eldar a bonus, I would base it off of their missions from the last battle mission book. Also, why not just make the fast attack, elites, and heavy support 0-4 instead of giving them one extra outside the slot? T

he avatar should most certainly NOT be strength and toughness 8. He is, at best, equivalent to a greater daemon. The wraithknight should pay the extra 100 points and become a gargantuan monstrous creature. Kick him into the LOW slot. They are rarer than the avatar, iirc(some craft world's, and all exodite worlds don't even have one) so it makes sense that their isn't a lot of them around.the guardians WS/be is fine. They all either have trained, or will train in the aspect warriors. And the special training they get is in the use of special weapons(wargear) and/ or tactics( various added usr) as a people, they are that fast and that skilled. It's who they are.

My $.02

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673315.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673315.page GMT Eldar codex WW is so fragile. I can't get target saturation, especially if the WS isn't a greater threat. It's basically a free First Blood. So I'm maybe better off with Heavy weapons on a Guardian squad (or Fire Dragons). I can still get 2x Heavy Weapons, and use my WS transports to get into range.

- HQ (~70pts)
- Guardian w/Heavy Weapon, Wave Serpent @ 100pts
- Guardian w/Heavy Weapon, Wave Serpent @ 100pts

The problem is it's still not a very punchy list. Like you said, my firepower is quite limited. Alternatives are running DA in Falcons, or a min troop tax in Jetbikes to free points for the rest of the list. I think the latter options are a lot stronger. I can free points for a Farseer, which means I put Guide onto a Falcon, or onto a WW Squadron with a mix of weapons, or get creative with fun units like Swooping Hawks, Prisms and Flyers, or just abuse an OP choice like a WK.

I don't really have any advice, just walking through what the loss of firepower means for the role of the WS in the overall army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673555.page GMT Eldar codex
The Serpents are bricks, and the Guardians have 11 bodies if they step out of the Serpent. Incredible survivability for ~500 points total.

At short range, those Guardians are going to do some damage.

So, if that list operated in those conditions, it'd be pretty good. Again, matched up against the 2xTac Marines+Rhino/Dakka Pred list, you've got better heavy weapons presence at range, and slightly better dakka ad midrange. While being an absolute beast in terms of survivability. The SM only win if your Guardians get out and sit within 24" of those Marines.

Look at all the options you listed if Serpents were no longer the amazing gunboats they are now. Shouldn't those be the kinds of decisions you're making when list building?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673874.page GMT Re:Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673931.page GMT Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7673948.page GMT Eldar codex HQ, SM can get 2 more Lascannons for their Squads and upgrade to Razorbacks with Heavy Flamers. It seems to me that 5 Lascannons stand a pretty good chance of knocking out a WS from across the table!

Obviously we are tailoring, but you're still looking at 7 Heavy weapons to 4. SM have more range with Lascannons, more diversity with Flamers, and more vehicles to work with. Wave Serpents can downgrade a pen, but more likely they will be jinking for their life to avoid getting hulled out. So they will be on the back foot from the start of the game, and if they are transporting troops, the army can't use half of it's firepower.

If the Guardians need to be outside the transport to do their job and shoot the bad guys, and in moving the Guardians around I mostly succeed in getting shot to pieces, what is the purpose of it all? I'm better off letting the Guardians walk, and shooting up the bad guys with Fire Prisms and Falcons, which will draw fire anway.

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm saying look at opportunity cost. You can probably cripple a Pred with 4x Brightlances, but 2x Brightlances and 2x Prism Cannons are stronger and will diversify better. With Battle Focus, 36" range and Relentless, you can fight without the WS, and the 60" Prism Range actually lets you engage the Pred first. Useful.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7675526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7675526.page GMT Eldar codex id still give that matchup to the double Guardians in Serpents. Serpent survivability will let them handle the armor, after which Guardians can help them kill the Marines.

The half-squads + Razorbacks are more like DAs in Falcons. With holo plus a SL or BL each, double falcon will win that matchup easily, but double serpent would have problems.

Isn't that kind of one-choice-doesnt-beat-all what we want?

(And yeah, I'd usually foot the Guardians and put some DAs in a transport)

Does this not sound better (for the game) to you?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7676171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7676171.page GMT Eldar codex
With two WS busy doing their job of transporting a unit, you have 2x Heavy Weapons available to your whole army at more than 400pts, with a maximum range of 36". Maybe effectively less with Jink, since getting hulled out is still a danger. To compare, you can get 12x Heavy Weapons at 420pts with War Walkers.

Even just comparing troops and transports, a 2x Falcon and 2x DA list would rip it apart don't you think? You have so much more effective firepower from the Falcons for your points, and the DA have a 6" range edge and a better save despite being outnumbered. It's also cheaper, so you get 20pts to spare for the HQ (meaningful, it's a Jetbike and Singing Spear).

Even at 80pts for a WS, trying to deal with potential overcosting, don't you think you'd still have a hard time matching up?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7677046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7677046.page GMT Re:Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7677344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7677344.page GMT Eldar codex
The Guardians w/HWP in a Serpent seems to be a delivery method for the 20 Shurikats + HWP, plus some Serpent fire support. The Falcon with 5 DAs is a battle tank with a little infantry. The Falcon will probably beat a stock Serpent, sure. It has better guns. But, with the proposed changes, it pays decently more for those guns.

The target of those Guardians is a unit on foot, preferably fragile and killy. Also the place where the stock Serpent does the best too. Against pure armor, though, the Falcon is in its element. But shooting a bunch of Guardsmen, Pathfinders or Stealth Suits, for instance, the Serpents/Guardians are going to go to town, while the Falcons do little.

The Serpent is the Eldar battletank version of the Rhino. The Falcon is more Razorback/Predator.

Furthermore, Eldar need such a transport more than most faction. What other shooty faction has most of their infantry equipped with 12"/18" guns? Fire Warriors don't need their devilfish, when they shoot 30". Space Marines don't need their Rhinos/pods as much because they both shoot 24" and arent reliant on them to survive. Dark Eldar love their boats, but mostly have 24" range, and are glass cannons. But Guardians and DA are expensive compared to their durability, due to having powerful short range guns.

Perhaps 100 points is still too high a price point, but I'm not convinced. 80 seems too low. The Devilfish and Necron boat are its closest comparisons.

If you look upthread, we discussed how it compares to the Necron boat. About the same durability. Serpent wins Mobility with Fast, sure, but 20 shots on the boat compared to 3/5 makes snapshotting not such a huge deal. Sure, Serpent can glance AV12 with 6s or AV10 with 4s, and ignore armor with less than one wound a round, but again, 3/5 shots versus 20 that pen/wound anything on a 6 give firepower easily to the boat.

For purpose, the Serpent needs to get rather close with its rear end on a 9" long frame, while only moving 6", so its contents can get out and get in range. And is AV10 no Serpent Shield if its rear faces the enemy. And only gets 3 shots at 24" or 5 at 12".

The Boat's purpose is to get any part of the hull within 24" of the target. Preferably moving only 6", but the contents can still fire snapshots if it moves 12". This adds 10 Gauss shots to its base of 20. If it gets within 12", it adds *20* shots instead. With guys who are safe inside the vehicle. No need to disembark. Still protecting and moving the guys after they engage. And is a powerful gunboat in its own right.

The Serpent is proposed to cost 100. The Boat costs 105. Seems to me the Boat is a lot more better than I thought originally, so costing more than 5 less seems appropriate.

Devilfish:
Devilfish isn't Fast, has AV11 sides.
For shooting:
Devilfish has 8 S5 shots at lower BS and 18" range. About half are pinning.
Serpent has 3 s6 fakerending BS4 TL shots at 24", and 2 S4 otherwise-same at 12". I'd give firepower, marginally, to the Devilfish.
Survivability:
Devilfish has AV11 sides and no Serpent Shield. Gonna have to give that, easily, to the Serpent.
Mobility:
Serpent is Fast. So, if you don't want to snapfire, the Devilfish is slower.

Purpose:
Serpent: as above.
Fish: moving units that want to be nowhere near the enemy closer to the enemy?
The 'Fish of Fury' tactic isn't great now, but moving 12 guys within 15" of the enemy (probably with an Ethereal) can do some damage. About as hard as moving DAs into position. Easier than Fire Dragons. But it just doesn't do much.
Alternately, they can be used as a 'cheap' and fast way to go cap an objective. Except that they aren't cheap.
They will usually be jinking, though, because their firepower isn't great, so 12" moves when not dropping off guys that turn isn't a big deal.
So, basically, the Fish costs too much and has no purpose right now. But is mostly worse than a Serpent.

The Fish should cost less than 80 points, but doesnt. So the Serpent, with these changes, should cost more than 80.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7679313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7679313.page GMT Eldar codex SM player is fighting without about 1x Sicaran with Lascannons. If the Eldar player gets lucky and kills the SM tank on turn 1, Eldar can win. The more pertinent problem is that the WS competes against the rest of the Eldar codex. Comparison of two 500pt Eldar lists:

1x Autarch (70pts)
2x WS w/Brightlance (210pts)
2x Guardians w/Scatter Laser (220pts)

1x Autarch w/Jetbike, Laser Lance (95pts)
2x Windrider Squadron w/ 1x Cannon, 2x Catapult (122pts)
1x Fire Prism w/Cannon (135pts)
1x Falcon w/SL, Cannon (145pts)

In the second list, I can put out 16/10 the S6 output of the Wave Serpent list, 4/2 the anti-AV, I can assault with HoW and T4, fire blast templates at disembarking infantry, jink everything, etc. What am I sacrificing in the second list? It's just a 2+ save against pen hits, 12x transport capacity in a fast vehicle, and more S4 output *if* my Guardians make it into position.

The WS is not competing with only a Devilfish. Don't we need to consider internal balance as well?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7680388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7680388.page GMT Eldar codex WS balance into a different direction, what is the purpose of the Wave Serpent?

That is to say, is it like the Rhino, where it exists solely to take a squad of infantry from point A to point B, or is it more like the Razorback, where it carries a smaller number of infantry but also provides fire support once said infantry are disembarked.

As an example, Rhino contemporaries would be:

Devilfish
DE Raiders
Trukks
certain Battlewagon configurations
LR Crusaders in most uses
Taurox

In contrast, Razorback analogues are:

certain Battlewagon configurations
Land Raiders
Immolators
Chimeras
Taurox Primes
Falcons

To put it succinctly, is the Wave Serpent a strict personnel carrier, or is it intended to be more of an infantry fighting vehicle in the tradition of the Razorback.

Because it seems to me that it's trying to do both jobs and is succeeding at the attempt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7680953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7680953.page GMT Eldar codex
Trukks and Raiders work well for Orks amd DE -- you can take a cheap squad and cheap vehicle, and use saturation to get around the inherent weaknessess of the vehicles. Also, they are open-topped, which helps each squad contribute more to the fight. Necrons too, really. LRC is on the opposite end of the durability spectrum, but since it can deliver 250-350pts of assaulters into their target, it also has its uses. Taurox has fire points to help out your special weapons carriers.

WS can help the Eldar troops get close -- but since the shooty troops can't fight from inside the transport, and the assault troops can't assault out of it, it limits the troop synergy. I think the idea was that the Serpent Field sets up assault with Pinning, or assures you your shooty squad makes it's target.

Fire Dragons might be viable. Expensive combo (200+ pts) but it can pop 200+ point units. Assault troops might be viable (260+ pts) for Wraithblades/WS combo, though the lack of Assault Vehicle will hurt. And for these guys to accomplish their mission, you don't want to risk a lucky pen ruining it.

But the cheaper troops? Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians? I think you need a shooty transport, because they can't contribute to the fight to the same extent. The comparison then becomes -- 180-ish points of troops/WS, versus 50pts of Jetbikes and 130pts of Heavy Support. So I think that's why the WS needs some offense --- without an assault vehicle status it needs an assault enabler (pinning with a modifier?), and it needs some firepower to compete against the Jetbike + HS alternative.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681168.page GMT Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681171.page GMT Re:Eldar codex (also i'm not adding anything to the codex)(trying to keep it simple, balanced, will send to gw later on, even if they do nothing i'll be using this with my friends.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681187.page GMT Eldar codex
(Meaning the Vyper equivalent)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681191.page GMT Eldar codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681207.page GMT Eldar codex

Yoyoyo wrote:
Well, where it really starts is the troops.

Trukks and Raiders work well for Orks amd DE -- you can take a cheap squad and cheap vehicle, and use saturation to get around the inherent weaknessess of the vehicles. Also, they are open-topped, which helps each squad contribute more to the fight. Necrons too, really. LRC is on the opposite end of the durability spectrum, but since it can deliver 250-350pts of assaulters into their target, it also has its uses. Taurox has fire points to help out your special weapons carriers.

WS can help the Eldar troops get close -- but since the shooty troops can't fight from inside the transport, and the assault troops can't assault out of it, it limits the troop synergy. I think the idea was that the Serpent Field sets up assault with Pinning, or assures you your shooty squad makes it's target.

Fire Dragons might be viable. Expensive combo (200+ pts) but it can pop 200+ point units. Assault troops might be viable (260+ pts) for Wraithblades/WS combo, though the lack of Assault Vehicle will hurt. And for these guys to accomplish their mission, you don't want to risk a lucky pen ruining it.

But the cheaper troops? Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians? I think you need a shooty transport, because they can't contribute to the fight to the same extent. The comparison then becomes -- 180-ish points of troops/WS, versus 50pts of Jetbikes and 130pts of Heavy Support. So I think that's why the WS needs some offense --- without an assault vehicle status it needs an assault enabler (pinning with a modifier?), and it needs some firepower to compete against the Jetbike + HS alternative.

By that metric, then the transport should complement the Troop choice in some kind of synergistic manner- as mentioned, Trukks/Raiders are cheap and can saturate to alleviate durability problems, plus they're open-topped, allowing them to function as impromptu assault transport/gunboat hybrids. Ghost Arks not only allow the Warriors inside to shoot out, but also, IIRC, contribute to 'Cron durability by buffing RP. LRCs can hold 16 angry ubermensh mangs to charge into the enemy*, the Taurox does have lots of fire points, and also has the incredible advantage of side access points to improve disembark-to-shoot type tactics.

Though it does bring up an interesting point- Rhinos are incredibly cheap transports that work really well for putting Troops up the board, but that's really all that they're good for- the old school "meltabunker" concept doesn't really work that well anymore, and most of the things that you can put into a Rhino... aren't that scary, or are actually hampered by the Rhino (Zerks in particular...).

In truth, if the Serpent Field is supposed to be used to set up assaults... then why not change it to no longer be a shooting weapon (or at least not a 60" one) and instead allow the WS to count as being equipped with an Assault Ramp on the turn it "pulses" the shield- this would certainly buff assault units that are sitting in WS.

I'd also contend that Avengers are, in fact, "shootier" than Tactical Marines, and to get a shooty transport said Tacs have to either go min-sized or Combat Squad and deal with a metahl bawks that has reduced capacity, little protection, and a moderately useful gun. Avengers get Wave Serpents and potentially Falcons, the latter of which is a battle tank in all but name, and the former of which is often treated as such.

So... should we really argue that a transport should make up for the armament of the squad(s) it can carry?

*IMO, the best LRC combination is to use Codex:SM, BT Chapter Tactics, and take a Crusader Squad consisting of 10 Initiates and 4 Neophytes, with a PF, Meltagun, Sword Brother character upgrade+Claw&Meltabombs for said Sword Brother, along with a Techmarine w/ Harness, Combi-Melta, Claw, and MBs, and a Chaplain with Primarch's Wrath, Armor Indomitus, ToT, and Meltabombs. All told, that's about 500 points of mans, plus another 260 of transport.

Alas, said unit isn't particularly good at punching especially tough things to death, despite including meltabombs on three dudes, a combi-melta, a regular melta, and the equivalent of two or three powerfist attacks. OTOH, it'll probably dump enough attacks to mulch tarpits pretty easily, particularly considering the spare bolter fire that it might be good to leverage before charging, along with the flamer from the Techie's harness and the Primarch's Wrath.

WRT Venom/Starweaver analogue: Why yes, I do think that the Eldar should get a small, open-topped skimmer transport. Given that both of the other Eldar factions get these, why not the CWE guys? I'm legitimately serious, BTW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681281.page GMT Eldar codex

Whiskey144 wrote:
In truth, if the Serpent Field is supposed to be used to set up assaults... then why not change it to no longer be a shooting weapon (or at least not a 60" one) and instead allow the WS to count as being equipped with an Assault Ramp on the turn it "pulses" the shield- this would certainly buff assault units that are sitting in WS.

You know, I think this is a cool direction. Get some synergy going with the troops, then figure out the anti-vehicle role.

I'm not sure what the Serpent Field should do as a weapon, but as for it's role, this is definitely the place to start.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7681352.page GMT Eldar codex WRT Venom equivalents:
Fluffwise, the Eldar have them. After all, they do mount heavy weapons platforms on them, and send them to battle (Vypers). And those who leave the Craft world have them (Corsair Venoms). But sending in precious Eldar lives into battle with no protection? It might be 'faster', but less in line with the 'perfection' Craftworlders chase. When Craftworlders need to get their soldiers into position, they get a vehicle designed for it (Serpent or Falcon), safety belts and all. That's just the Craftworlder way.

So while they have Venoms, they aren't tools of war. And CW Eldar are all about the right tool for the right job.

If CW need a mobile firebase, that's what Vypers and Hornets and Gravtanks are for. Why have precious Eldar soldiers standing about when they can just hardwire the weapon into the platform? So they hardwire a heavy weapon to a Vyper.

Dark Citiers, on the other hand, have Warriors and Wyches clamoring for action. Why mechanize it and take out all the fun?

Assaulting from transports:
As for assaulting, perhaps an Assault Ramp upgrade for the Serpent and Falcon would be appropriate. Open Topped would be an anathema to the Craftworlders way of doing things. They would just design an alternate configuration of a Gravtank to make it possible, if they wanted to assault from a vehicle. That said, doing so always seemed too direct for Craftworlders.

Not having an Assault Transport never really bothered me outside Harlequins. Banshees need a way to get there, sure, but everything else assaulty in the Dex doesn't need it. And Banshees should have something more related to running and acrobatics to get into CC, IMO.

WRT cost:
85 seems a bit low. Sure, the default heavy weapon isn't so great, but its still an AV12 brick. And that heavy weapon isn't useless.

WRT role:
The Serpent wants to get its people into position, and support with a heavy weapon. Its, effectively, both a Rhino and a no-sponson Predator in one. Get its people there, do some shooting.

Currently, its shooting is too good. The changes above fix that. A single heavy weapon, of any type, isn't much for even as low as 85 points.

Getting troops into position sounds easy with such a long Flat Out. But the rear-access-only actually got a huge nerf in 7th: If it moves, instead of just pivoting, if any part moves more than 6", it moved at least Cruising speed. A good change, definitely. But when you factor in the inability to disembark after moving more than 6", and the 9" long hull, unless the rear hatch starts facing the enemy (AV10 no Shield), it cannot move and turn around (can just pivot though), and still disembark. This means, either it is really easily killed the turn before, or the contents get out in the back, or the Serpent can't move at all the turn it drops them off. In any case, the turn they get out, they don't really get any movement benefit from the Serpent. This means, if you are pushing your guys after theirs, the Serpent has to end its turn dangerously close to the target.

So, currently, it probably goes like this:
T1: flat out Serpent.
T2: Disembark, possibly BF forward to shoot.
T3: Move into range, and shoot/charge.

Not sure how to help with that. Perhaps allow units with BattleFocus to use a 'run' move to disembark, retaining shooting ng/charging restrictions?

The other issue is cost. If you're paying +85 + upgrades on top of the squad you want fighting, having it only deliver troops simply isn't enough. But if you give it too much firepower, why risk it trying to deliver troops?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682090.page GMT Re:Eldar codex

Slayer222 wrote:
I put an assault option, also the serpent is 85pts,(currently)think of dropping it to 75.
(also i'm not adding anything to the codex)(trying to keep it simple, balanced, will send to gw later on, even if they do nothing i'll be using this with my friends.

Wait, 85 points base? That's a bit low for the serpent, don't you think?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682482.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:

So, currently, it probably goes like this:
T1: flat out Serpent.
T2: Disembark, possibly BF forward to shoot.
T3: Move into range, and shoot/charge.

Not sure how to help with that. Perhaps allow units with BattleFocus to use a 'run' move to disembark, retaining shooting ng/charging restrictions?

Pinning is supposed to be a protective debuff, that locks your target in place and protects your guys. It would be better if more reliable -- maybe the Serpent Field could add a negative modifier to the pinning test?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682644.page GMT Eldar codex
(And 85 does seem too cheap)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682663.page GMT Re:Eldar codex
Fluff aside how would you plan to represent that through rules on the tabletop? Hypothetically, why not just go all out and remove it entirely?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682718.page GMT Eldar codex
That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682732.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't mind much if it were removed entirely as a weapon.

That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.

The point of the Serpent Shield was supposed to be a tradeoff between durability and firepower, you could hang onto the shield to be tougher or shoot it to be shootier. The problem is that vehicles die to glances in this day and age, not to pens, so losing the save against pens does very little for the Wave Serpent. Fix: The Serpent Shield cannot be snap-fired. If a Wave Serpent fires its Serpent Shield, it may not Jink in the following enemy turn. Force an actual trade-off, make the Serpent Shield an actual last-resort weapon that strips your defenses if you use it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682800.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:
The Serpent Shield is only supposed to be used in extremis. Shouldn't it be entirely unrelated to assaulting? Making it better at helping something you plan to do is kinda backwards.

(And 85 does seem too cheap)

To explain that idea further: the concept I had in mind was that the SS was "pulsed"- not fired to give some kind of field-wave-effect thing that makes the Serpent count as if it had an Assault Ramp. So it's not actually shooting stuff, it's like it's creating surf that the passengers then... well, surf.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682813.page GMT Eldar codex Battle Focus Synergy: "Any unit with Battle Focus that disembarked from this model may assault the target this model shot at this turn as if this model were an Assault transport."

Does what you want, and doesn't invoke an in-emergencies-only piece of kit when doing something by-the-book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682923.page GMT Eldar codex

AnomanderRake wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't mind much if it were removed entirely as a weapon.

That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.

That sounds like a reasonable trade off, but personally I'd still rather not have it be a 60" gun with S7 and Ignores Cover. My Heavy supports would still kill for that statline.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7682927.page GMT Eldar codex

Bharring wrote:
Not that I like the idea - if it needs an Assault Ramp upgrade, give it an Assault Ramp upgrade - but why tie it to the Serpent Shield's shooting? Why not give something like:
Battle Focus Synergy: "Any unit with Battle Focus that disembarked from this model may assault the target this model shot at this turn as if this model were an Assault transport."

Does what you want, and doesn't invoke an in-emergencies-only piece of kit when doing something by-the-book.

Again, to be clear my idea is, more-or-less, that there are three "modes" to the Serpent Shield- you can use it as a shield to buff durability, as a gun to buff shooting, or as a fancy wave gizmo to buff assaults.

On the whole, I actually think that Serpents should just be able to somehow get an assault ramp, mostly so a unit like, say, Banshees, can actually see some use instead of mostly being left behind on account of either being shot to pieces or spending the entire game in a metahl bawks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7683732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638737/7683732.page GMT