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Keeps universal rules and warlord traits.
relics the same

equpment changes
Bikes cost 25pts
Holofields are 5++

HQ:
Eldrad- 180pts (rest stays the same)
Prince YRiel- 125pts may re roll all failed rolls of 1 in cc(keeps re-roll of 6 for save)
Illiac Night Spear- 125 pts (pathfinders are additional 10pts)
All Phoenix Lords- +1 W, +1 A, 5++
Asurman-200 pts
JainZar-same
Karandras- 230 pts
Feugen 220 pts
Bahamoth 200pts (NON SCATTER deep strike with any unit attached to.)
Maugen ra- 200pts magenator 48" str8/5 ap3 hv 2 pinning or Hv4
(+3 str ap3 in melee)
Avatar(lord of war)- S/T 6 6w, 6A, 4++, fnp- 260 pts (keeps all else the same)(jump MC)
Autarch-
May take sniper rifle 5 pts, Can take exarch equipment and gains their basic special rules if he buys the path. Also may take the exarch's baught skills if pays for them. That path makes them troops. 30 pts a path. Max one.
farseer same
spiritseer same
warlock 30pts

Troops
Dire Avengers-13pts
Guardians-9pts/model lose 1 ws, plateforms cost 10 pts less.
storm guardians-9pts- loses 1 bs, 3 pts a flammer, 5 pts a fusion pistol(2/10) 10 pts a power sword.(2/10), (2/10=2 PER 10 models)
Windrider- 18pts keep ws/bs save becomes 4+
Rangers gain CCW

Dedicated transport
Wave serpent- 85pts, shield 6" range, shield turns pen into a glance on a 3+, assault ramp (20pts)
Falcon-120pts. assault ramp (20pts)
(Laser Lock- +10pts on any model that two or more weapons can be fired)

Elite
Banshee- gain furios charge(-1pt/model)
Scorpions mandiblaster str 4 ap/(+1A)
Fire dragons- 20pts/model
wraithguard- same as in rules

Fast attack
Hawks- same as in book
Spiders- same as in book
(assault spiders) trade in death spitter gain shuriken pistol and rending claw(spider)
Shining spears 24pts/model (+1A)
Crimson hunter- 140pts/model (max 2 per detachment)
Vyper same as in rule book(-5Pts)
Hemlock- 160pts

Heavy
Dark reapers-5 pts str shot missile, group upgrade Sky fire (50pts)
Vaul Battery- max 5 per unit.
Fire Prism 120pts
Night spinner- 105pts (flammer gains ap5)
Falcon- heavy(if not dedicated)120pts
Wraith lord-110 base, -10pts for weapon upgrades.
Wraith Knight- 250 pts base, 30 pts suncannon/shield(max 2 per detachment and not before 1000 pts, for the first and 1500 pts for the second)

Detachment
1-2Hq
2-6 Troops
0-4 Elites
0-4 Fast attack
0-5 Dedicated Transport(maximum number)
0-4 Heavy
0-1LOW
(may take 1 unit of Elites, fast attack, or heavy without it taking an organization slot)

Formations
Pheonix Lord Formation
Must take 3 Squads of that unit
Must take the Pheonix Lord
The squads must have the maximum number of squad members
The unit must each have an Exarch
(They all members of this formation, while the Phoenix Lord is alive, Gain Feel No Pain and Fearless.

Ranger Formation
1 Unit of rangers
Cost 30pts
each 2 rangers in Formation can make a unit, each unit gains shrouded in place of stealth.

Wraithlord Formation
3 wraithlords
Become one unit and take up one heavy slot.

Young Kings Court
1 avatar of kain
1-3 of each exarch (pay model + exarch upgrade cost)
(0-3 shining spears exarch)
All special rules are transfered to the group(acrobatics,stealth..)(this does not transfer specific wargear items only exarch powers and equipment that affect the unit)
(example exarch jump pack does not work but shimmershield 5++ does)
Count as Toughness 6 when being fired at or in melee unless targeting individual character in combat.

The Last Hope
1 Eldrad
4 units of Guardian Defenders
8 units of Warlocks
2 warlocks can go with each guardian squad, the warlocks cannot take the primaris and instead has embolden as the primaris power)
(if Embolden rolled while rolling for psychic powers re-roll that dice)
(The psycher automaticly has the shrouded special rule)

Sky hunter
3 Crimson Hunters
takes up one fast attack slot
Can re-roll failed armor pens but has the get hots formation(one use)

IF you want discuss any changes, display pro/cons.
I tried my best to balance the codex by reducing the good things strengths and making the poor choices a little better.
I limited my creativity with new units/abilities and tried to just balance(of course the Autarch needed paths)

So, can I assume this is balanced?

nice work.
cost of bikes seams a little high if they don't have a 3+ save

Karandras would be to good for the points.

give avatar 12" move maybe.

dire avengers and guardians too cheap I think the're good as they are. 10 guardians and a scatter laser for 90pts would be too cheap.

love the idea of assault spiders.

I think cutting points for vypers.

adding an attack for wraith gaurd and shining spears would be nice.
5 wounds on a wraith knight maybe
and allowing warlocks to join aspects with the corresponding gear would be awesome.
how cool would a warlock warps spider or scorpion be.

I'm not a fan of the Avatar being T8. I'm sick of Eldar getting all the T8, but my Star Gods remain T7 for the same cost....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what would you change Scatter Lasers to?

I was hoping something like "If a 6 is rolled to hit, increase the BS of the rest of the weapons fired on this vehicle by 1. This does not work on Snap Shots and does not affect a vehicles Serpent Shield shooting attack."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, increase the cost to 15-20 points.

Why increase the cost when I just nerfed the shield so that if it's used the serpent is almost guaranteed to die?

 Slayer222 wrote:
Why increase the cost when I just nerfed the shield so that if it's used the serpent is almost guaranteed to die?

Why increase the cost of the Scatter Laser? Because for what it does now (Even not including the Serpent Shield) is ridiculous for 5 points. So regardless, even if they don't change what it does, it needs to be more expensive. Also, Wraithknights can take it, and I'd rather see BS5 Suncannons instead of Twin linked ones. And Wraithknights are cheap for what they are already.

I wish we played points for the Serpent chassis when we bought it, and the gun upgrades when we bought them.

How many points would you think a stock Serpent should be, assuming the Shield were nerfed appropriately?

Note this is 3xS6 @ 24", 2xS4 @12, and no Holofields.

(Next question would be weapon costs)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kron - how's this for another way to do it?
Laser Lock: If this weapon scores a hit, choose one other weapon on the same model. That weapon gets +1 to its to-hit roll, even if it fires snapshots.

Notes about this:
-Serpent Shield isn't a weapon until fired, so couldn't be affected
-Limit 1 weapon
-It would make Laser Lock be guidance when the pilot can't target well (snap shots), which seems about right for what it is.

Bharring wrote:
I wish we played points for the Serpent chassis when we bought it, and the gun upgrades when we bought them.

How many points would you think a stock Serpent should be, assuming the Shield were nerfed appropriately?

Note this is 3xS6 @ 24", 2xS4 @12, and no Holofields.

(Next question would be weapon costs)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kron - how's this for another way to do it?
Laser Lock: If this weapon scores a hit, choose one other weapon on the same model. That weapon gets +1 to its to-hit roll, even if it fires snapshots.

Notes about this:
-Serpent Shield isn't a weapon until fired, so couldn't be affected
-Limit 1 weapon
-It would make Laser Lock be guidance when the pilot can't target well (snap shots), which seems about right for what it is.

I think for how it is stock, the Wave Serpent should be about 115 points or so. That my personal opinion. I'm comparing it to my Ghost ark, which is 105. Is has slightly worse AV, but isn't open topped (which is a boon and a curse, arguably), and doesn't have to worry about being pinned, that of which it has the Serpent shield for anyway. It's Fast, which makes a big difference, and has decent weaponry.

And I still don't think Laser Lock should be one just any hit. I think it should be on a hit of a 6, and doesn't work on snap shots, since thats how a lot of things are going nowadays.

(I put laser lock under the serpent)(it is on a 6 to hit you can re-roll one other dice roll to hit.(re-rolling 1 dice per 6 isn't to bad)
Also I compare the serpent more to the tau vehicle that is way overcosted and has some firepower since it is more similar including wargear.

It's a bit difficult to figure out specifically what you mean in a couple of places, but I think this is a pretty solid list of changes. The wraithlords being 3 to a heavy slot is pretty scary (9 lords walking across the table with the avatar), but there's precedent in the dark eldar book. Court of the young king probably needs to be cleaned up as certain fast attack powers (spider jump, sky leap, herald of victory) could get very odd very fast. Keep in mind that crimson hunters are technically aspect warriors with exarchs.

I think I'd like more customized formations for each phoenix lord's formation, but this is a pretty good way to handle them all with one formation. Why only two crimson hunters in an army? Is it a matter of durability? What would you think of allowing up to three hunters, but only 1 exarch? Or possibly having a "shrine of the Hunter" formation that allows you to take 3 of them as a single fast attack slot or something?

I like the changes to the serpent, but a 30 point assault ramp seems like it might possibly be a bit overcosted considering it's semi-mandatory for our assault units to function.

I'd rather not see the scatter laser complicated. If people feel that it's too good as is, how about upping the cost slightly and calling it good? Say 10 or 15 points for its range/firepower, then another 5 for unmodified laser lock?

Kron -
The Ghost Ark has 20x s4ap5 at 24"
Stock Serpent has 3x S6ap5 at 24", plus 2x s4ap5 at 12, all with Bladestorm (less than 1 ap2 hit every other round).

Stock Serpent has higher S, but 1/4 to 1/6 the shots. Occasional AP2, but not much.

For durability, its Open Topped AV13 till the first pen vs av12 most-pens-glance. In 6th, that pen reduction was huge. Its still nice now, but not as critical, because most things are hulled out. Likewise, in 6th, the AV of the Ark going down rarely seemed to matter, but now it does.

I'd argue mild advantage Serpent, but I wouldn't dismiss it being a large advantage.

Then comes roles.
GA is open topped, supporting the Silver Tide with faster-moving impending doom (I love that feel, playing against them). So vehicle closes to within 24", and lets fly a pair of blistering salvos - 20 shots from the vehicle, plus the guys inside. If it jinks, it snapfires, guys in side don't. If it moved more than 6", guys inside jink.

Stock Serpent is a brick that deposits guys where they need to go. Better than a heavy bolter, but very few shots. Short-range guys hop out before shooting. Then are usually super a vulnerable to firing, while the Ghost Ark protects the guys inside while they fire.

So the Ghost Ark has better dakka, and is a solid platform to fight from, while being quite durable.

Stock Serpent is a more durable delivery platform, with better durability. But has to deliver its contents before they can engage, then has mild support capability.

Seems light advantage Ghost Ark to me. With that comparison, seems 100 pt Serpent to a 105 Ghost Ark might be appropriate? (Strong hike on upgrades though. Should pay for the firepower!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer:

I like a lot of what you have.

Avatar:
Should the Avatar really be t8? Wraithlords, definitely. But the Avatar, while powerful, is more of a threat due to his skill. WS/BS/I 10 are amazing. T6 with lots of wounds l makes him durable against small arms, but not unkillable.
As for Jump MC, does he really fit that? Yes, he's a badass. But does he really move around that well? GW seems to hand it out like candy, sure, but there is a reason everyone hates it.
If you want to buff the Avatar, perhaps do it more along the lines of skill? Like, give CW Eldar (or all Eldar?) +1 WS/BS/I within 12" of him? Or Hatred or PE?
Also, seems like a reasonable candidate for a LoW, if we wanted.

Autarch:
Perhaps this entry needs to be split.
Fluff-wise, aside from the culture of hero worship among Eldar, any random Aspect Warrior should be much better at that Path than an Autarch. An Exarch, even more so.
An Autarch is a master strategist. Not to be confused with the inspiring presence and tactical direction of an IG officer. Every Aspect Warrior is completely competent in the tactics of their Path. So, where an IG Officer might get better performance barking tactical commands at the grunts, an Aspect Warrior would already know how to apply itself best. What Tue Autarch knows is when and where he needs those Dire Avengers. What the Aspect Warriors know, and the Autarch might not, is what firing pattern is optimal for that target at this distance with these weapons.
So things like Reserve manipulation is optimal. Or perhaps some Deployment shenanigans. Or bonus Warlord trait(s). Possibly without even being the Warlord.

The Autarch does spend some time training at some Aspect shrines. And is thus allowed to take some Aspect gear. But they aren't even fully trained in that aspect. Much less be lost on its path/ consumed with obsession for the aspect. So Exarch powers (or even Exarch gear) seems a bit much. Mechanically, an Autarch can kick the snot out of most Exarch, sure, but that's because that's how this game does HQ slots. Fluffwise, Autarchs aren't beat sticks. Or even combat heros. They are strategists.

So perhaps we should add a more-experienced Exarch as an HQ choice, for a combat specialist. So Eldar can have a beatstick. I think I've seen people use the term 'Xentarch'. As Exarch get more experienced in their unique style, they get better. They should run the spectrum between Aspect Warrior (newly lost on the path) and Phoenix Lord (First students of Asurmen's students should be really good, but not at the level of Phoenix Lord). Older and more experienced than 'normal' Exarch, they would have a lot more options in terms of tools of the trade and skills.

Another option is a Prince. Eldar are still deeply feudalist in nature. Princes(es) are still thought of incredibly highly, even though modern CW Eldar give them no place in a Warhost. But a Prince might take to the Path of Strategy, while truly being guided by their hubris. So they focus on being legendary combatants, even if they don't realize it, instead of strategy. This is, effectively, what Yriel is. How I read his fluff, he's an old-school prince, who bucked the modern CW Eldar combat doctrine. An Autarch in little more than name.

I like the idea of Autarchs picking Paths. But, while that should open up Aspect Warrior gear and sometimes skills, Exarch gear and skills are still far beyond their grasp. As for making things Troops, (1) the game is moving away from that, in favor of formations, and (2), even with a Warp Spider - trained Autarch, their role is to use more than just that Aspect on the field. So I would think allow multiple paths (perhaps more for each additional). And, instead of Troops-ing the Aspect, he may choose one unit of that Aspect to be Obsec (gets them in the right place at the right time).

As for Assault Ramps, I like my Eldar without them. I wouldn't have a problem with the option being added though, assuming the cost is sufficient to make it at-best reasonable.

Banshees
Perhaps another solution for Banshees would be to add this to Acrobatic:
-May use a Run move to disembark from a CW Eldar transport during the Shooting phase, even if the Transport moved more than 6" or Flat Outed. Any restrictions on shooting or charging remain in effect.
This would let them get into place a round earlier, and use the transport for one less round. But wouldn't violate the whole one-turn-of-vulnerability doctrine the rules around this enforce. So everyone would be happy, I think.

Bharring wrote:
Kron -
The Ghost Ark has 20x s4ap5 at 24"
Stock Serpent has 3x S6ap5 at 24", plus 2x s4ap5 at 12, all with Bladestorm (less than 1 ap2 hit every other round).

Stock Serpent has higher S, but 1/4 to 1/6 the shots. Occasional AP2, but not much.

For durability, its Open Topped AV13 till the first pen vs av12 most-pens-glance. In 6th, that pen reduction was huge. Its still nice now, but not as critical, because most things are hulled out. Likewise, in 6th, the AV of the Ark going down rarely seemed to matter, but now it does.

I'd argue mild advantage Serpent, but I wouldn't dismiss it being a large advantage.

Then comes roles.
GA is open topped, supporting the Silver Tide with faster-moving impending doom (I love that feel, playing against them). So vehicle closes to within 24", and lets fly a pair of blistering salvos - 20 shots from the vehicle, plus the guys inside. If it jinks, it snapfires, guys in side don't. If it moved more than 6", guys inside jink.

Stock Serpent is a brick that deposits guys where they need to go. Better than a heavy bolter, but very few shots. Short-range guys hop out before shooting. Then are usually super a vulnerable to firing, while the Ghost Ark protects the guys inside while they fire.

So the Ghost Ark has better dakka, and is a solid platform to fight from, while being quite durable.

Stock Serpent is a more durable delivery platform, with better durability. But has to deliver its contents before they can engage, then has mild support capability.

Seems light advantage Ghost Ark to me. With that comparison, seems 100 pt Serpent to a 105 Ghost Ark might be appropriate? (Strong hike on upgrades though. Should pay for the firepower!)

100 points wouldn't be too bad, as long as the serpent shield isn't the same. The argument I have is my Ghost ark has to be within 24" to shoot at a serpent, in which it gets a better cover save (3+ typically), and I move slow. The Serpent shield glances me on 6s (same as my gauss shooting at a serpent) with no saves of any kind allowed, and can do this from 60" away. If that is fixed, I have no problem with the serpent costing 100 points base.

@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

I can't see a Serpent being used without excellent firepower. List building at 500pts:

-- A HQ is 70-100pts;
-- Troops are minimum 130pts;
-- Transport is minimum 200pts;

So at this point, we have no upgrades, 70-100pts free, and nothing significant to threaten the enemy with. Kind of a problem when I'm restricted to a single War Walker or Vaul battery as my fire support! Alternatively:

-- An HQ is 70-100pts;
-- Troops are about 130pts;
-- My transports double as heavy support, for about 250-300pts.

So basically, I decided to switch to Falcons. Given they are now DTs and can degrade the enemy (whereas Serpents cannot), Falcons are safer for my troops. I want an offensive option to wreck the enemy firepower, not a defensive option to deliver my troops before the untouched guns of the opponent. I understand the point of enabling more troop-centric play, but the WS and Falcon are the equivalent of an IFV. They have heavy support built into the transport. If too many points get sunk into toothless transports, you have little to threaten the enemy with in the first 1-2 turns. The alternative is you can do the Land Raider thing, where a killer short-range unit like Wraithblades/Wraithguard goes into a tough but relatively defensive transport. An expensive, defensively-oriented WS might end up being this. But if you're not transporting a killer unit, you end up with something like the Devilfish. Kroot are often taken as a tax, and the transport is avoided completely, even at a cheaper 80pts. I don't think the problem is survivability!

Transports are good for MSU when they're cheap. Eldar will need the equivalent of a Hilux (cheap, fast, open-topped) to do troop oriented MSU -- something like a Harlequin or DE transport basically. Maybe I don't see the bigger picture here, but I don't see Eldar simply foregoing long-range fire. How do all the pieces fit together?

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...

They shouldn't when it comes to game balance/mechanics. Fluff-wise? Because they are older and more dedicated to combat than an Archon. Archons are no slouches when it comes to combat. They've probably got a few centuries if not a few millenia under their belts fighting things. However, not all of their time is dedicated to fighting. They have politicking to do. They enjoy hedonistic pleasures of various sorts. They are total BAMFs who probably deserve their high BS and WS.

Exarchs, however, are cut above that. They seem to be about as old as their craftworlds (so nearly 10,000 years while Vect is only about 7,000 years old iirc). They're defined by their complete obsession with combat. Each day not spent actively engaged in war is spent drilling with the same weaponry they've been using for millenia or else finding new weapons with which to be lethal. Their mind is a mosaic of every psycopath that has shared their collective obsession with combat and donned the exarch armor as a result meaning they have the combined lifetimes of violent experiences to draw on when fighting. By the time you've become an exarch, you're already ostricizing yourself from society because you can't have a conversation without moving or speaking like you're about to kill someone. Your every thought is colored red and filtered through a lense of violence. They are creatures that struggle to lift their thoughts above warfare, and thanks to the fact that some exarchs don't even have flesh and bone inside them any more (2nd edition eldar codex), part of their existence is spent theoretically not needing to pause for rest or nourishment. Every second combat. Every thought shaded by violence. Paused only by a lack of armor wearer. Every day. Since the Emperor was in diapers.

So yeah. Archons are cool and all, but from a fluff point of view, exarchs probably deserve to have the higher weapon skill of the two. And a death company guy being able to match them because he has a couple centuries (maybe) of combat experience under his belt and poor impulse control is almost comical. Nothing against death company.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Bharring: Totally agree in regards to autarchs, exarchs, etc. I'd be all for giving autarchs bonus strategic traits or something along those lines. Fluff-wise, exarchs could probably stand to get a WS/BS boost (why is an archon better at swordplay than the exarch who's twice his age with infinitely more focus?), but that would probably be a bit much mechanically.

I'm not a fan of the no-assault ramps thing or of running banshees out of transports. It would help a little, but it still just seems wrong to have to drop your soldiers off a turn early and beg the enemy to sprinkle them with dakka before you're allowed to charge with them. Honestly, if they were just allowed to assault the turn they disembarked (as per 5th edition), they'd be fine. This doesn't have to be a banshee/eldar only thing. I'd like to see the whole "turn of vulnerability" thing go away for all armies.

Uhh, aren't Exarchs the equivalent of Squad leaders for Eldar? So why would we have WS/BS 7 squad leaders, with better guns than what Archons have access to...

They shouldn't when it comes to game balance/mechanics. Fluff-wise? Because they are older and more dedicated to combat than an Archon. Archons are no slouches when it comes to combat. They've probably got a few centuries if not a few millenia under their belts fighting things. However, not all of their time is dedicated to fighting. They have politicking to do. They enjoy hedonistic pleasures of various sorts. They are total BAMFs who probably deserve their high BS and WS.

Exarchs, however, are cut above that. They seem to be about as old as their craftworlds (so nearly 10,000 years while Vect is only about 7,000 years old iirc). They're defined by their complete obsession with combat. Each day not spent actively engaged in war is spent drilling with the same weaponry they've been using for millenia or else finding new weapons with which to be lethal. Their mind is a mosaic of every psycopath that has shared their collective obsession with combat and donned the exarch armor as a result meaning they have the combined lifetimes of violent experiences to draw on when fighting. By the time you've become an exarch, you're already ostricizing yourself from society because you can't have a conversation without moving or speaking like you're about to kill someone. Your every thought is colored red and filtered through a lense of violence. They are creatures that struggle to lift their thoughts above warfare, and thanks to the fact that some exarchs don't even have flesh and bone inside them any more (2nd edition eldar codex), part of their existence is spent theoretically not needing to pause for rest or nourishment. Every second combat. Every thought shaded by violence. Paused only by a lack of armor wearer. Every day. Since the Emperor was in diapers.

So yeah. Archons are cool and all, but from a fluff point of view, exarchs probably deserve to have the higher weapon skill of the two. And a death company guy being able to match them because he has a couple centuries (maybe) of combat experience under his belt and poor impulse control is almost comical. Nothing against death company.

I mean, that was an awesome explanation and all, but sadly a lot of things in this game don't quite resemble how they should be. A Hive Tyrant having the same amount of wounds as a Chapter Master. The Necron LOW only have 3 wounds and no Eternal warrior, unlike every single other Space Marine LOW, even though Necrons are tougher and harder to actually kill. It sucks, but it's how the game itself turns out.

I sort of explain survivability issues with a hand wave of "plot armor." Marines are neat, but they really shouldn't get away with the stuff they do in many of the books. They basically have a cloak of action movie protection that helps keep t hem alive. I suppose a similar argument could be made for the offensive abilities of an archon/autarch compared to an exarch (the plot favors them thus making them more lethal), but I feel that action movie plot power is less directly a part of their characters than it is for marines.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I sort of explain survivability issues with a hand wave of "plot armor." Marines are neat, but they really shouldn't get away with the stuff they do in many of the books. They basically have a cloak of action movie protection that helps keep t hem alive. I suppose a similar argument could be made for the offensive abilities of an archon/autarch compared to an exarch (the plot favors them thus making them more lethal), but I feel that action movie plot power is less directly a part of their characters than it is for marines.

That is a very good way of putting it. I usually just chalk it up to GW loves their babies. They get all the best toys.

Wrt Exarch:
I don't think anyone seriously suggesting squad-Exarchs be raised to WS/bs 7. The thought was that the Autarch *shouldn't* be beefed up. If CW Eldar were to have a generic beatstick HQ, it should be something else, like an older Exarch or a Prince. It'd be nice, but we don't really need it.

Wrt Serpents and Shooting:
Even without Serpent Shield shooting, the Serpent can still do decent dakka. As a dakkaboat, its 7 s6 TL shots, albeit at 24". Not great for the price point, but survivability and maneuverability is what you're paying for.

Think of these two lists:
10xSM, Rhino x2
Predator

Vs
5xDA, Serpent x2

Any way you slice it, with the Serpent Shield shooting - even if not twin linked, the Serpents win hard. Too hard.

Drop Serpent Shooting to 6", and things become a lot more... right. And, if you need cheap mobile dakka, 70pts for 2xHeavy Weapons (WarWalker) does it incredibly well anyways.

I really don't envision a scenario where the Serpent Shield still shoots that far, and it being reasonable, short of Eldar becomming trash-tier overall.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634611.page

Here was my take on an update.

In regards to their force org, why would they get objective secured? The eldar only EVER hold a position if their craft world is invaded. They would not make the idea of it a core part of their tactical doctrine. If you wanted to give the eldar a bonus, I would base it off of their missions from the last battle mission book. Also, why not just make the fast attack, elites, and heavy support 0-4 instead of giving them one extra outside the slot? T

he avatar should most certainly NOT be strength and toughness 8. He is, at best, equivalent to a greater daemon. The wraithknight should pay the extra 100 points and become a gargantuan monstrous creature. Kick him into the LOW slot. They are rarer than the avatar, iirc(some craft world's, and all exodite worlds don't even have one) so it makes sense that their isn't a lot of them around.the guardians WS/be is fine. They all either have trained, or will train in the aspect warriors. And the special training they get is in the use of special weapons(wargear) and/ or tactics( various added usr) as a people, they are that fast and that skilled. It's who they are.

My $.02

There's something of a problem in that a single WW is so fragile. I can't get target saturation, especially if the WS isn't a greater threat. It's basically a free First Blood. So I'm maybe better off with Heavy weapons on a Guardian squad (or Fire Dragons). I can still get 2x Heavy Weapons, and use my WS transports to get into range.

- HQ (~70pts)
- Guardian w/Heavy Weapon, Wave Serpent @ 100pts
- Guardian w/Heavy Weapon, Wave Serpent @ 100pts

The problem is it's still not a very punchy list. Like you said, my firepower is quite limited. Alternatives are running DA in Falcons, or a min troop tax in Jetbikes to free points for the rest of the list. I think the latter options are a lot stronger. I can free points for a Farseer, which means I put Guide onto a Falcon, or onto a WW Squadron with a mix of weapons, or get creative with fun units like Swooping Hawks, Prisms and Flyers, or just abuse an OP choice like a WK.

I don't really have any advice, just walking through what the loss of firepower means for the role of the WS in the overall army.

That list has 4 long-range heavy weapons, two of which are twin linked.

The Serpents are bricks, and the Guardians have 11 bodies if they step out of the Serpent. Incredible survivability for ~500 points total.

At short range, those Guardians are going to do some damage.

So, if that list operated in those conditions, it'd be pretty good. Again, matched up against the 2xTac Marines+Rhino/Dakka Pred list, you've got better heavy weapons presence at range, and slightly better dakka ad midrange. While being an absolute beast in terms of survivability. The SM only win if your Guardians get out and sit within 24" of those Marines.

Look at all the options you listed if Serpents were no longer the amazing gunboats they are now. Shouldn't those be the kinds of decisions you're making when list building?

I'm only counting 2 and 10 bodies each unless someone is cheating. (1 leader)

Heavy weapons platform. Doesn't always count.

You're not just fighting 2 Tacs and a Pred though, there's still 150pts left. With a minimum HQ, SM can get 2 more Lascannons for their Squads and upgrade to Razorbacks with Heavy Flamers. It seems to me that 5 Lascannons stand a pretty good chance of knocking out a WS from across the table!

Obviously we are tailoring, but you're still looking at 7 Heavy weapons to 4. SM have more range with Lascannons, more diversity with Flamers, and more vehicles to work with. Wave Serpents can downgrade a pen, but more likely they will be jinking for their life to avoid getting hulled out. So they will be on the back foot from the start of the game, and if they are transporting troops, the army can't use half of it's firepower.

If the Guardians need to be outside the transport to do their job and shoot the bad guys, and in moving the Guardians around I mostly succeed in getting shot to pieces, what is the purpose of it all? I'm better off letting the Guardians walk, and shooting up the bad guys with Fire Prisms and Falcons, which will draw fire anway.

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm saying look at opportunity cost. You can probably cripple a Pred with 4x Brightlances, but 2x Brightlances and 2x Prism Cannons are stronger and will diversify better. With Battle Focus, 36" range and Relentless, you can fight without the WS, and the 60" Prism Range actually lets you engage the Pred first. Useful.

I had meant 10-mans and a Dakka Pred. 10pts over though (I had rough-guessed the points). Each list would have its strong points, but id still give that matchup to the double Guardians in Serpents. Serpent survivability will let them handle the armor, after which Guardians can help them kill the Marines.

The half-squads + Razorbacks are more like DAs in Falcons. With holo plus a SL or BL each, double falcon will win that matchup easily, but double serpent would have problems.

Isn't that kind of one-choice-doesnt-beat-all what we want?

(And yeah, I'd usually foot the Guardians and put some DAs in a transport)

Does this not sound better (for the game) to you?

Every choice is supposed to give you some kind of advantage. Without the Serpent Field for offense, all you have is a very expensive skimmer that hard-counters AP1/AP2 pens.

With two WS busy doing their job of transporting a unit, you have 2x Heavy Weapons available to your whole army at more than 400pts, with a maximum range of 36". Maybe effectively less with Jink, since getting hulled out is still a danger. To compare, you can get 12x Heavy Weapons at 420pts with War Walkers.

Even just comparing troops and transports, a 2x Falcon and 2x DA list would rip it apart don't you think? You have so much more effective firepower from the Falcons for your points, and the DA have a 6" range edge and a better save despite being outnumbered. It's also cheaper, so you get 20pts to spare for the HQ (meaningful, it's a Jetbike and Singing Spear).

Even at 80pts for a WS, trying to deal with potential overcosting, don't you think you'd still have a hard time matching up?

Sorry it takes so long to post, I run the numbers, then do play trials against multiple factions to try and see how balanced it is, currently the serpent loses to the devilfish which everyone says is overcosted. So trying to find a balance on cos

Isn't that a lot like saying, why take a Rhino at 35 points, when you can take a Razorback at 55 points?

The Guardians w/HWP in a Serpent seems to be a delivery method for the 20 Shurikats + HWP, plus some Serpent fire support. The Falcon with 5 DAs is a battle tank with a little infantry. The Falcon will probably beat a stock Serpent, sure. It has better guns. But, with the proposed changes, it pays decently more for those guns.

The target of those Guardians is a unit on foot, preferably fragile and killy. Also the place where the stock Serpent does the best too. Against pure armor, though, the Falcon is in its element. But shooting a bunch of Guardsmen, Pathfinders or Stealth Suits, for instance, the Serpents/Guardians are going to go to town, while the Falcons do little.

The Serpent is the Eldar battletank version of the Rhino. The Falcon is more Razorback/Predator.

Furthermore, Eldar need such a transport more than most faction. What other shooty faction has most of their infantry equipped with 12"/18" guns? Fire Warriors don't need their devilfish, when they shoot 30". Space Marines don't need their Rhinos/pods as much because they both shoot 24" and arent reliant on them to survive. Dark Eldar love their boats, but mostly have 24" range, and are glass cannons. But Guardians and DA are expensive compared to their durability, due to having powerful short range guns.

Perhaps 100 points is still too high a price point, but I'm not convinced. 80 seems too low. The Devilfish and Necron boat are its closest comparisons.

If you look upthread, we discussed how it compares to the Necron boat. About the same durability. Serpent wins Mobility with Fast, sure, but 20 shots on the boat compared to 3/5 makes snapshotting not such a huge deal. Sure, Serpent can glance AV12 with 6s or AV10 with 4s, and ignore armor with less than one wound a round, but again, 3/5 shots versus 20 that pen/wound anything on a 6 give firepower easily to the boat.

For purpose, the Serpent needs to get rather close with its rear end on a 9" long frame, while only moving 6", so its contents can get out and get in range. And is AV10 no Serpent Shield if its rear faces the enemy. And only gets 3 shots at 24" or 5 at 12".

The Boat's purpose is to get any part of the hull within 24" of the target. Preferably moving only 6", but the contents can still fire snapshots if it moves 12". This adds 10 Gauss shots to its base of 20. If it gets within 12", it adds *20* shots instead. With guys who are safe inside the vehicle. No need to disembark. Still protecting and moving the guys after they engage. And is a powerful gunboat in its own right.

The Serpent is proposed to cost 100. The Boat costs 105. Seems to me the Boat is a lot more better than I thought originally, so costing more than 5 less seems appropriate.

Devilfish:
Devilfish isn't Fast, has AV11 sides.
For shooting:
Devilfish has 8 S5 shots at lower BS and 18" range. About half are pinning.
Serpent has 3 s6 fakerending BS4 TL shots at 24", and 2 S4 otherwise-same at 12". I'd give firepower, marginally, to the Devilfish.
Survivability:
Devilfish has AV11 sides and no Serpent Shield. Gonna have to give that, easily, to the Serpent.
Mobility:
Serpent is Fast. So, if you don't want to snapfire, the Devilfish is slower.

Purpose:
Serpent: as above.
Fish: moving units that want to be nowhere near the enemy closer to the enemy?
The 'Fish of Fury' tactic isn't great now, but moving 12 guys within 15" of the enemy (probably with an Ethereal) can do some damage. About as hard as moving DAs into position. Easier than Fire Dragons. But it just doesn't do much.
Alternately, they can be used as a 'cheap' and fast way to go cap an objective. Except that they aren't cheap.
They will usually be jinking, though, because their firepower isn't great, so 12" moves when not dropping off guys that turn isn't a big deal.
So, basically, the Fish costs too much and has no purpose right now. But is mostly worse than a Serpent.

The Fish should cost less than 80 points, but doesnt. So the Serpent, with these changes, should cost more than 80.