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I believe you that the Wave Serpent and Guardian combo can be good against 2 Rhinos and Tacs. Forget the fact that a 170 point differential exists, meaning the SM player is fighting without about 1x Sicaran with Lascannons. If the Eldar player gets lucky and kills the SM tank on turn 1, Eldar can win. The more pertinent problem is that the WS competes against the rest of the Eldar codex. Comparison of two 500pt Eldar lists:

1x Autarch (70pts)
2x WS w/Brightlance (210pts)
2x Guardians w/Scatter Laser (220pts)

1x Autarch w/Jetbike, Laser Lance (95pts)
2x Windrider Squadron w/ 1x Cannon, 2x Catapult (122pts)
1x Fire Prism w/Cannon (135pts)
1x Falcon w/SL, Cannon (145pts)

In the second list, I can put out 16/10 the S6 output of the Wave Serpent list, 4/2 the anti-AV, I can assault with HoW and T4, fire blast templates at disembarking infantry, jink everything, etc. What am I sacrificing in the second list? It's just a 2+ save against pen hits, 12x transport capacity in a fast vehicle, and more S4 output *if* my Guardians make it into position.

The WS is not competing with only a Devilfish. Don't we need to consider internal balance as well?

Well, to perhaps take the WS balance into a different direction, what is the purpose of the Wave Serpent?

That is to say, is it like the Rhino, where it exists solely to take a squad of infantry from point A to point B, or is it more like the Razorback, where it carries a smaller number of infantry but also provides fire support once said infantry are disembarked.

As an example, Rhino contemporaries would be:

Devilfish
DE Raiders
Trukks
certain Battlewagon configurations
LR Crusaders in most uses
Taurox

In contrast, Razorback analogues are:

certain Battlewagon configurations
Land Raiders
Immolators
Chimeras
Taurox Primes
Falcons

To put it succinctly, is the Wave Serpent a strict personnel carrier, or is it intended to be more of an infantry fighting vehicle in the tradition of the Razorback.

Because it seems to me that it's trying to do both jobs and is succeeding at the attempt.

Well, where it really starts is the troops.

Trukks and Raiders work well for Orks amd DE -- you can take a cheap squad and cheap vehicle, and use saturation to get around the inherent weaknessess of the vehicles. Also, they are open-topped, which helps each squad contribute more to the fight. Necrons too, really. LRC is on the opposite end of the durability spectrum, but since it can deliver 250-350pts of assaulters into their target, it also has its uses. Taurox has fire points to help out your special weapons carriers.

WS can help the Eldar troops get close -- but since the shooty troops can't fight from inside the transport, and the assault troops can't assault out of it, it limits the troop synergy. I think the idea was that the Serpent Field sets up assault with Pinning, or assures you your shooty squad makes it's target.

Fire Dragons might be viable. Expensive combo (200+ pts) but it can pop 200+ point units. Assault troops might be viable (260+ pts) for Wraithblades/WS combo, though the lack of Assault Vehicle will hurt. And for these guys to accomplish their mission, you don't want to risk a lucky pen ruining it.

But the cheaper troops? Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians? I think you need a shooty transport, because they can't contribute to the fight to the same extent. The comparison then becomes -- 180-ish points of troops/WS, versus 50pts of Jetbikes and 130pts of Heavy Support. So I think that's why the WS needs some offense --- without an assault vehicle status it needs an assault enabler (pinning with a modifier?), and it needs some firepower to compete against the Jetbike + HS alternative.

I still think the Eldar need a Vyper variant that hauls troops. Make it open-topped so they can assault out of it.

I put an assault option, also the serpent is 85pts,(currently)think of dropping it to 75.
(also i'm not adding anything to the codex)(trying to keep it simple, balanced, will send to gw later on, even if they do nothing i'll be using this with my friends.

That's basically the Starweaver for Harlequins.

(Meaning the Vyper equivalent)

I'm willing to give Eldar all kinds of fair toys to get the uber Serpent off the table.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Well, where it really starts is the troops.

Trukks and Raiders work well for Orks amd DE -- you can take a cheap squad and cheap vehicle, and use saturation to get around the inherent weaknessess of the vehicles. Also, they are open-topped, which helps each squad contribute more to the fight. Necrons too, really. LRC is on the opposite end of the durability spectrum, but since it can deliver 250-350pts of assaulters into their target, it also has its uses. Taurox has fire points to help out your special weapons carriers.

WS can help the Eldar troops get close -- but since the shooty troops can't fight from inside the transport, and the assault troops can't assault out of it, it limits the troop synergy. I think the idea was that the Serpent Field sets up assault with Pinning, or assures you your shooty squad makes it's target.

Fire Dragons might be viable. Expensive combo (200+ pts) but it can pop 200+ point units. Assault troops might be viable (260+ pts) for Wraithblades/WS combo, though the lack of Assault Vehicle will hurt. And for these guys to accomplish their mission, you don't want to risk a lucky pen ruining it.

But the cheaper troops? Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians? I think you need a shooty transport, because they can't contribute to the fight to the same extent. The comparison then becomes -- 180-ish points of troops/WS, versus 50pts of Jetbikes and 130pts of Heavy Support. So I think that's why the WS needs some offense --- without an assault vehicle status it needs an assault enabler (pinning with a modifier?), and it needs some firepower to compete against the Jetbike + HS alternative.

By that metric, then the transport should complement the Troop choice in some kind of synergistic manner- as mentioned, Trukks/Raiders are cheap and can saturate to alleviate durability problems, plus they're open-topped, allowing them to function as impromptu assault transport/gunboat hybrids. Ghost Arks not only allow the Warriors inside to shoot out, but also, IIRC, contribute to 'Cron durability by buffing RP. LRCs can hold 16 angry ubermensh mangs to charge into the enemy*, the Taurox does have lots of fire points, and also has the incredible advantage of side access points to improve disembark-to-shoot type tactics.

Though it does bring up an interesting point- Rhinos are incredibly cheap transports that work really well for putting Troops up the board, but that's really all that they're good for- the old school "meltabunker" concept doesn't really work that well anymore, and most of the things that you can put into a Rhino... aren't that scary, or are actually hampered by the Rhino (Zerks in particular...).

In truth, if the Serpent Field is supposed to be used to set up assaults... then why not change it to no longer be a shooting weapon (or at least not a 60" one) and instead allow the WS to count as being equipped with an Assault Ramp on the turn it "pulses" the shield- this would certainly buff assault units that are sitting in WS.

I'd also contend that Avengers are, in fact, "shootier" than Tactical Marines, and to get a shooty transport said Tacs have to either go min-sized or Combat Squad and deal with a metahl bawks that has reduced capacity, little protection, and a moderately useful gun. Avengers get Wave Serpents and potentially Falcons, the latter of which is a battle tank in all but name, and the former of which is often treated as such.

So... should we really argue that a transport should make up for the armament of the squad(s) it can carry?

*IMO, the best LRC combination is to use Codex:SM, BT Chapter Tactics, and take a Crusader Squad consisting of 10 Initiates and 4 Neophytes, with a PF, Meltagun, Sword Brother character upgrade+Claw&Meltabombs for said Sword Brother, along with a Techmarine w/ Harness, Combi-Melta, Claw, and MBs, and a Chaplain with Primarch's Wrath, Armor Indomitus, ToT, and Meltabombs. All told, that's about 500 points of mans, plus another 260 of transport.

Alas, said unit isn't particularly good at punching especially tough things to death, despite including meltabombs on three dudes, a combi-melta, a regular melta, and the equivalent of two or three powerfist attacks. OTOH, it'll probably dump enough attacks to mulch tarpits pretty easily, particularly considering the spare bolter fire that it might be good to leverage before charging, along with the flamer from the Techie's harness and the Primarch's Wrath.

WRT Venom/Starweaver analogue: Why yes, I do think that the Eldar should get a small, open-topped skimmer transport. Given that both of the other Eldar factions get these, why not the CWE guys? I'm legitimately serious, BTW.

Whiskey144 wrote:
In truth, if the Serpent Field is supposed to be used to set up assaults... then why not change it to no longer be a shooting weapon (or at least not a 60" one) and instead allow the WS to count as being equipped with an Assault Ramp on the turn it "pulses" the shield- this would certainly buff assault units that are sitting in WS.

You know, I think this is a cool direction. Get some synergy going with the troops, then figure out the anti-vehicle role.

I'm not sure what the Serpent Field should do as a weapon, but as for it's role, this is definitely the place to start.

WRT Venom equivalents:
Fluffwise, the Eldar have them. After all, they do mount heavy weapons platforms on them, and send them to battle (Vypers). And those who leave the Craft world have them (Corsair Venoms). But sending in precious Eldar lives into battle with no protection? It might be 'faster', but less in line with the 'perfection' Craftworlders chase. When Craftworlders need to get their soldiers into position, they get a vehicle designed for it (Serpent or Falcon), safety belts and all. That's just the Craftworlder way.

So while they have Venoms, they aren't tools of war. And CW Eldar are all about the right tool for the right job.

If CW need a mobile firebase, that's what Vypers and Hornets and Gravtanks are for. Why have precious Eldar soldiers standing about when they can just hardwire the weapon into the platform? So they hardwire a heavy weapon to a Vyper.

Dark Citiers, on the other hand, have Warriors and Wyches clamoring for action. Why mechanize it and take out all the fun?

Assaulting from transports:
As for assaulting, perhaps an Assault Ramp upgrade for the Serpent and Falcon would be appropriate. Open Topped would be an anathema to the Craftworlders way of doing things. They would just design an alternate configuration of a Gravtank to make it possible, if they wanted to assault from a vehicle. That said, doing so always seemed too direct for Craftworlders.

Not having an Assault Transport never really bothered me outside Harlequins. Banshees need a way to get there, sure, but everything else assaulty in the Dex doesn't need it. And Banshees should have something more related to running and acrobatics to get into CC, IMO.

WRT cost:
85 seems a bit low. Sure, the default heavy weapon isn't so great, but its still an AV12 brick. And that heavy weapon isn't useless.

WRT role:
The Serpent wants to get its people into position, and support with a heavy weapon. Its, effectively, both a Rhino and a no-sponson Predator in one. Get its people there, do some shooting.

Currently, its shooting is too good. The changes above fix that. A single heavy weapon, of any type, isn't much for even as low as 85 points.

Getting troops into position sounds easy with such a long Flat Out. But the rear-access-only actually got a huge nerf in 7th: If it moves, instead of just pivoting, if any part moves more than 6", it moved at least Cruising speed. A good change, definitely. But when you factor in the inability to disembark after moving more than 6", and the 9" long hull, unless the rear hatch starts facing the enemy (AV10 no Shield), it cannot move and turn around (can just pivot though), and still disembark. This means, either it is really easily killed the turn before, or the contents get out in the back, or the Serpent can't move at all the turn it drops them off. In any case, the turn they get out, they don't really get any movement benefit from the Serpent. This means, if you are pushing your guys after theirs, the Serpent has to end its turn dangerously close to the target.

So, currently, it probably goes like this:
T1: flat out Serpent.
T2: Disembark, possibly BF forward to shoot.
T3: Move into range, and shoot/charge.

Not sure how to help with that. Perhaps allow units with BattleFocus to use a 'run' move to disembark, retaining shooting ng/charging restrictions?

The other issue is cost. If you're paying +85 + upgrades on top of the squad you want fighting, having it only deliver troops simply isn't enough. But if you give it too much firepower, why risk it trying to deliver troops?

 Slayer222 wrote:
I put an assault option, also the serpent is 85pts,(currently)think of dropping it to 75.
(also i'm not adding anything to the codex)(trying to keep it simple, balanced, will send to gw later on, even if they do nothing i'll be using this with my friends.

Wait, 85 points base? That's a bit low for the serpent, don't you think?

Bharring wrote:

So, currently, it probably goes like this:
T1: flat out Serpent.
T2: Disembark, possibly BF forward to shoot.
T3: Move into range, and shoot/charge.

Not sure how to help with that. Perhaps allow units with BattleFocus to use a 'run' move to disembark, retaining shooting ng/charging restrictions?

Pinning is supposed to be a protective debuff, that locks your target in place and protects your guys. It would be better if more reliable -- maybe the Serpent Field could add a negative modifier to the pinning test?

The Serpent Shield is only supposed to be used in extremis. Shouldn't it be entirely unrelated to assaulting? Making it better at helping something you plan to do is kinda backwards.

(And 85 does seem too cheap)

"The Serpent Shield is only supposed to be used in extremis"

Fluff aside how would you plan to represent that through rules on the tabletop? Hypothetically, why not just go all out and remove it entirely?

Wouldn't mind much if it were removed entirely as a weapon.

That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't mind much if it were removed entirely as a weapon.

That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.

The point of the Serpent Shield was supposed to be a tradeoff between durability and firepower, you could hang onto the shield to be tougher or shoot it to be shootier. The problem is that vehicles die to glances in this day and age, not to pens, so losing the save against pens does very little for the Wave Serpent. Fix: The Serpent Shield cannot be snap-fired. If a Wave Serpent fires its Serpent Shield, it may not Jink in the following enemy turn. Force an actual trade-off, make the Serpent Shield an actual last-resort weapon that strips your defenses if you use it.

Bharring wrote:
The Serpent Shield is only supposed to be used in extremis. Shouldn't it be entirely unrelated to assaulting? Making it better at helping something you plan to do is kinda backwards.

(And 85 does seem too cheap)

To explain that idea further: the concept I had in mind was that the SS was "pulsed"- not fired to give some kind of field-wave-effect thing that makes the Serpent count as if it had an Assault Ramp. So it's not actually shooting stuff, it's like it's creating surf that the passengers then... well, surf.

Not that I like the idea - if it needs an Assault Ramp upgrade, give it an Assault Ramp upgrade - but why tie it to the Serpent Shield's shooting? Why not give something like:
Battle Focus Synergy: "Any unit with Battle Focus that disembarked from this model may assault the target this model shot at this turn as if this model were an Assault transport."

Does what you want, and doesn't invoke an in-emergencies-only piece of kit when doing something by-the-book.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't mind much if it were removed entirely as a weapon.

That said, extremely short range (6") helps, but other drawbacks could also be added if needed. Like Gets Hot or something?

Making it so the contents can only do their job *if* you shoot the target with it kinda shoehorns players into depending on firing it.

If its just a 6" gun, that should do the trick, but if you start adding to the gun really good buffs, it'll push it back to nearly manditory.

The point of the Serpent Shield was supposed to be a tradeoff between durability and firepower, you could hang onto the shield to be tougher or shoot it to be shootier. The problem is that vehicles die to glances in this day and age, not to pens, so losing the save against pens does very little for the Wave Serpent. Fix: The Serpent Shield cannot be snap-fired. If a Wave Serpent fires its Serpent Shield, it may not Jink in the following enemy turn. Force an actual trade-off, make the Serpent Shield an actual last-resort weapon that strips your defenses if you use it.

That sounds like a reasonable trade off, but personally I'd still rather not have it be a 60" gun with S7 and Ignores Cover. My Heavy supports would still kill for that statline.

Bharring wrote:
Not that I like the idea - if it needs an Assault Ramp upgrade, give it an Assault Ramp upgrade - but why tie it to the Serpent Shield's shooting? Why not give something like:
Battle Focus Synergy: "Any unit with Battle Focus that disembarked from this model may assault the target this model shot at this turn as if this model were an Assault transport."

Does what you want, and doesn't invoke an in-emergencies-only piece of kit when doing something by-the-book.

Again, to be clear my idea is, more-or-less, that there are three "modes" to the Serpent Shield- you can use it as a shield to buff durability, as a gun to buff shooting, or as a fancy wave gizmo to buff assaults.

On the whole, I actually think that Serpents should just be able to somehow get an assault ramp, mostly so a unit like, say, Banshees, can actually see some use instead of mostly being left behind on account of either being shot to pieces or spending the entire game in a metahl bawks.