<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[1850] - Eldar

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out..."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
First off, bear this in mind...I haven't played 40K in 10 years. The last time I played was edition 3.5; I'm primarily a Fantasy player, but I haven't even managed to play that in 5 years. Life has finally calmed down, though, and I'd like to start playing again, which would likely mean travelling to cons, tournaments, etc., as I live in a fairly rural area (there are some people I can find to play against for practice, but it would be sporadic).

So, this is going to be a lot of Theoryhammer on my part, from an old RT-era geezer. I've always liked the Eldar the best, and although I have several thousand points of Aspect Warriors and such, I've always wanted two other armies...a Harlequin Army, and a Corsair Fleet Army. I'm primarily motivated by modelling and painting, and trying to stick to a theme, but I would still like a chance to win games in a competitive environment, and not just bring some gimplist my opponent will be bored walking over.

So, I'd like some opinions and guidance on how the following two lists might play in a competitive 7th edition environment. I'm reasonably familiar with the rules, but, as I said, I haven't played 7th edition yet, or even 6th. So, if you get really specific, please explain a bit for my benefit.

Harlequin list
HQ
Solitaire (Autarch) - Mantle of the Laughing God, Shard of Anaris, The Phoenix Gem (178 points...it's my understanding I have to buy a Scorpion Chainsword for 3 points, then replace it with the Shard)
Master Shadowseer (Farseer) (100 points)
Shadowseers (2 Warlocks) - Singing Spears and Jetbikes (110 points)
Troops
Harlequin Jetbikes (6 Windrider Jetbikes) - 2x Shuriken Cannons (122 points)
Harlequin Jetbikes (6 Windrider Jetbikes) - 2x Shuriken Cannons (122 points)
Mimes (10 Dire Avengers) - Master Mime (Exarch) w/Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Shield of Grace (170 points)
Mimes (10 Dire Avengers) - Master Mime (Exarch) w/Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Shield of Grace (170 points)
Elites
Harlequin Troupe (10 Harlequin) - Troupe Master (w/Kiss), Shadowseer, Death Jester; 7x Harlequin Kisses, 2x Fusion Pistols (288 points)
Harlequin Troupe (10 Harlequin) - Troupe Master (w/Kiss), Shadowseer, Death Jester; 7x Harlequin Kisses, 2x Fusion Pistols (288 points)
Fast Attack
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
--1848 points.

The modelling and painting potential of this list is endless and exciting. I've always wanted a Harlequin list, as I mentioned. As far as the list itself, well, it seems like the Solitaire was just meant to be. The Mantle is literally designed for such a model, and the Shard is just a souped-up Kiss. The Gem is one final trick from the Laughing God himself. It's awesomely neat. The Jetbikes with Warlocks (probably just using Conceal) fit really well too, and of course the Harlequin Troupes are what the list is based around. The Avengers as Mimes are all I can really think to put in there (I don't want an entirely Jetbike-based list), but the Exarch with the Shimmershield basically gives everyone a Holofield save, so it fits. The Vypers are just for fun, and because they fit well enough and will be a great canvas for painting.

The Farseer...he's sort of the problem child. Nothing wrong with having a more powerful Seer in the list, but I literally feel like I am including him for one reason alone...to hopefully eat up my opponent's Warding/Dispel attempts, allowing me to get the Veil of Tears and Conceals and such off. It just seems like without those abilities, I'll have most of my models picked up off the table in short order. So, basically he just feels tacked-on...like he is there to add 3 more dice to my Psychic Phase, and make it more successful. He'd just be running along with the Mimes doing...Farseer stuffs, I guess. I don't really know what I would do with the 100 points though. I guess I could swap him out for a second Autarch, as a Great Harlequin. 100 points buys him a Jetbike, Fusion Gun, and Scorpion Chainsword, or leave him on foot and give him a Power Weapon. Dunno.

A couple specific questions:
--Should I be giving them all Kisses? Seems foolish not too...especially when it's the difference between 18 and 22 points a model.
--Am I going to have too much difficulty with Vehicles? I have a couple Fusion weapons, some Singing Spears, and a ton of S6 fire, plus Haywire Grenades on the Solitaire. Do I need more? Should I swap out the dual Shuriken Cannons on some of the Vypers for TL Catapults and a Bright Lance (same cost)?
--Are flyers common enough that I will be screwed when they show up? What could I do about that?
--What else is good/bad about this list?

Anyway, the other idea (I say other, but, in reality, I want to do both) is an Eldar Corsair list. It's fairly similar, but would be painted/modelled entirely differently, and hopefully play differently too:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
2 Warlocks - Singing Spears (80 points)
Troops
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
5 Rangers (60 points)
5 Rangers (60 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Star Lance, Hit & Run (160 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch (180 points)
Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
---1843 points

Unlike the Harlequin, this list should have no problems with vehicles...10 Bright Lances, Star Lance, 6 Laser Lances, 3 Singing Spears, Pulse Laser, 8 Shuriken Cannons...might be TOO much. I magnetize all my weapon mounts, so I could swap out weapons on the War Walkers or Vypers instead of bringing so many Lances. Other than that, it has the classic Corsair feel...lots of Fast Troops, Fast Attack, and Fast Heavy Support (Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Scouts, etc.). The Farseer just seemed like a fun way to go...bouncing from cover to cover with the Spirit Stone and Mantle (+3 on Cover Saves, plus re-rolling them, and a 3+ Jetbike armor save, since he'd be giving up his Rune Armor a lot with the Stone). The Crimson Hunter could be replaced with more Vypers if we weren't playing with Flyers or something. But I want to own and paint an Eldar aircraft, so...

How will this list fare in a competitive environment? Any suggestions to improve it?

Thanks for reading all this (if you did). I appreciate any help. You might see it on a couple other boards too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648913.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648935.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... "Serpent Spam" is a thing. It won't make your friends happy, but it is quite competitive.

In that second list, your War Walkers are crap. Take at least one Scatter Laser each (for twin-linking fun), and either a Lance or a second SL.

In general, Scatter Lasers are very good. High number of shots, often TL, and the ability to TL the rest of the model's shooting. Take SL/SC on your Serpents.

If you drop those Rangers, you could fit in a few more Warlocks, perhaps on Bikes?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648965.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Wave Serpents are one of the most powerful units currently in the game. They're cheap, nigh-indestructible, and have incredible firepower. (Make sure to take holo-fields!)
"Serpent Spam" is a thing. It won't make your friends happy, but it is quite competitive.

In that second list, your War Walkers are crap. Take at least one Scatter Laser each (for twin-linking fun), and either a Lance or a second SL.

In general, Scatter Lasers are very good. High number of shots, often TL, and the ability to TL the rest of the model's shooting. Take SL/SC on your Serpents.

If you drop those Rangers, you could fit in a few more Warlocks, perhaps on Bikes?

Thanks for the comments!

Well, no Serpents with the Harlequin, but I have two in the Corsair list. Hopefully that's not "spam."

I figured I needed the Rangers for more Troops choices, and possibly to hold objectives and such. Where would I put the Warlocks on Bikes? Or would they just be a unit on their own? Would they do better than the Rangers?

Originally, I had 2 more Vypers and no Crimson Hunter in the list. Then one pair of the Walkers had EML's with Flakk missiles on them. But I decided I wanted the Flyer, for painting. If I get you right, you are saying I have enough tank hunting stuff, and I should outfit the Walkers for volume firepower?

Also, why do people like Scatter Lasers over Shuriken Cannons? Slightly more range, and one more shot, but the Sh. Cannon gets Rending (essentially...Bladestorm), and in my past experience, over 50% of opponents at a tournament were Marines/Chaos Marines, so it seems the ability to punch armor would be more useful? And Starcannons seem to suck now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648966.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

Kagetora wrote:
There's a new Harlequin Codex?

Yes, just came out this year! Although you will likely want to run an Eldar CAD with your Harlequin detachment/formations.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648986.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

partninja wrote:

Kagetora wrote:
There's a new Harlequin Codex?

Yes, just came out this year! Although you will likely want to run an Eldar CAD with your Harlequin detachment/formations.

Wow...it only took, like...20 years. I honestly didn't think such a thing would ever happen again!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7648994.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
So on wave serpent the laser lock lets you fire the S7 Ignore cover shield D6+1 shot shield, basically becoming a twin-linked light armour killing machine

Same on the war walkers, firing the SL first will twin link the second weapon. I do argue though that 2 SL on a war walker must be fired at the same time so a SL may never benefit from laser lock (as "All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot...", a SL is still a SL, whether you have 1 or 2 of them)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649041.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:
Shooting first with a scatter laser lets you "Laser Lock" the other weapons fired by that model.

So on wave serpent the laser lock lets you fire the S7 Ignore cover shield D6+1 shot shield, basically becoming a twin-linked light armour killing machine

Same on the war walkers, firing the SL first will twin link the second weapon. I do argue though that 2 SL on a war walker must be fired at the same time so a SL may never benefit from laser lock (as "All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot...", a SL is still a SL, whether you have 1 or 2 of them)

Yeah, I got that out of the Laser Lock rule too...but I suppose if you wanted to TL you second weapon, like a Starcannon, it would be useful. But, why not just take a pair of Starcannons in the first place, since the Scatter Laser isn't going to even scratch more than half your targets? Typically, I judge most units and weapons on how they are going to perform against Marines/Chaos Marines, since that seems to be more than half of the armies you see at events.

2 Walkers, each with 2 SL's, get 16 shots. Impressive. BS 4 gives you 10 hits (10.166, or something around there). Probably 8 wounds. 2-3 dead Marines. With Starcannons, you only get half as many shots/hits/wounds, but they all just kill...4 dead Marines. This is discounting cover, of course. With that factored in, it runs about even, with the SL being better against horde armies and the SC being better against Vehicles (AP 2 for +1 on the Damage table) or Termie lists. Seems like a coin flip to me. I suppose it would be fun to take 2 of each.

Also, do you actually use the blast from the Wave Serpent shield? That seemed like suicide to me, as far as the tank was concerned...losing that 2+ conversion to glancing hits for a very random weapon that doesn't take away armor saves... Do people use it a lot? Or is it very circumstantial?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649224.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... D6+1 shots at 60" range ignoring cover is pretty great, esp if you're out of retaliation range or can laserlock and think you can kill what's going to hurt you. Against MEQ (which is almost all I play against) they're just not as good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649314.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649383.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... HP left, something that would normal just jink your shot]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7649660.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
There is also an army list for a Corsair army in Imperial Armour 11. You should check out both the new codex for Harlequins and the Corsair army list before you make your lists]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650378.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

Helvost wrote:
Instead of bringing ''Harlequin'' Jetbikes and harlequin troupes from the Eldar codex, why don't you bring a detachment of the new Harlequins from Codex: Harlequins??

There is also an army list for a Corsair army in Imperial Armour 11. You should check out both the new codex for Harlequins and the Corsair army list before you make your lists

I just found out about the Harlequin Codex from a response in this thread. It appears it's on pre-order right now...is that correct? So, yeah, I'll definitely check it out. I didn't even know it existed.

Do they allow Imperial Armor 11 Lists and models/rules/vehicles in most tournaments? In that past, when I played before, they never did, so I was trying to avoid "non-Codex" items and units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650430.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... IA 11, but there are a couple Forgeworld units from IA 11 that you could use in your Corsair army list such as the Hornet and the Warp Hunter. It also might give you some ideas for modelling as well as some fluff to work with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650452.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

Helvost wrote:
Most tournaments probably won't allow the Corsair codex from IA 11, but there are a couple Forgeworld units from IA 11 that you could use in your Corsair army list such as the Hornet and the Warp Hunter. It also might give you some ideas for modelling as well as some fluff to work with.

I do, indeed love some of the Forgeworld models, like the Wasp, Hornet, and Phoenix. I had given some thought to picking up Wasps to use as War Walkers and Hornets to use as Vypers. Adds to the cost, but the models are definitely cool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650470.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
Hornets everyday, no question. The load out, plus speed gives you something else

Double pulse lasers would work]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7650480.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... Harlies are too fragile these days.
As an old Eldar player, I'd opt for Eldar.
As said, Serpent spam is the way yo go if you want to attend tourneys.
I'd go for a Jetseer, two small squads of Fire Dragons in Serpents, since they get almost any job done, three units of DA or Guardians in Serpents, and a WK plus some Warwalkers with dual scatterlasers. No Exarch upgrades and no spirit stones. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7651514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7651514.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7651768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7651768.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... BS 4, when you are putting them in a Serpent; the 6" additional range should end up essentially meaningless, and a Warlock with Conceal is probably just as good as an Exarch with a Shimmershield in the end (after they pile out), considering how everyone says cover saves are so crazy common now. The Dire Avengers might fit the concept a bit better (essentially "elite" Guardians with better equipment, since they aren't soft residents of a Craftworld, but Corsairs), but it could go either way.

Also, are Wave Serpents really as over-durable as everyone says? I mean, sure...downgrading every Pen to a Glance on a 2+ is awesome, but it still only takes 3 Glances against AV12 to drop it into a smoldering wreck. Even with Cover Saves, that's doable with a lot of the lists I used to see (Missile Launcher and Lascannon spam). Like I mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the practical application of the rules...how it actually happens on the table. They were very durable when I played with mine...back in the day, there were no HP, but it worked like this: A Skimmer moving over 6" automatically downgraded every shot to a Glance, the Holo-Field made you re-roll on the table, and, IIRC, the Wave Serpent's shield dropped anything over S8 to S8. So, if someone hit it with a Lascannon, for example, they had a 50% chance of inflicting a Glance, assuming it had moved. That Glance had a 1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 Weapon Destroyed, 5 Immobilized (destoyed for Skimmer), 6 Destroyed. Forcing them to re-roll meant 75% of the time you were Shaken or Stunned (which you could ignore with the Spirit Stone), and they had to roll 5-5, 5-6, 6-5, or 6-6 to destroy the vehicle. A 1-in-9 shot at it. Very durable. But it only took one shot if they got lucky, or if they went first, which improved their odds tremendously (since you hadn't moved yet, and they could get Pen hits). Are Serpents even more durable than THAT now? Because that would be kind of crazy.

As another question (yeah...I know I have a lot of them...sorry), how common are Flyers at events/tournaments? Do people actually use them a lot, or are they just an additional neat, but typically unused entry in most books? The reason I was bringing a Crimson Hunter was two-fold...to have a really cool model to paint (I was going to get a Phoenix from FW, even though yes, I know it's bigger and harder to hide), and to deal with enemy Flyers. It seems the ONLY other options I have are a Dark Reaper Exarch (not going to happen in a fluffy Corsair list) with Flakk missiles, War Walkers with Flakk missiles (CRAZY expensive), or trying to hit them on 6's (which would suck). Do I need the Crimson Hunter? I could go something like:

Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
3 Warlocks - Singing Spears (120 points)
Troops
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Star Lance, Hit & Run (160 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
---1832 points

That leaves me 18 points short or so, and I'd probably upgrade the weapons on the Wave Serpents. I'm unclear on how many weapons they are going to get to shoot each turn anyway, so upgrading the TL Catapults to a Cannon might be a total waste of points. I could put other weapons on them instead (BL/SL/SC) and save 5 points per model, or skip the upgrades altogether and save 10. Or I could put Dire Avengers in them and skip the Warlocks, but then the Farseer probably will have more trouble using their abilities (easier for the opponent to stop your Psychics). 11 Guardians + a Warlock is 139 points, 10 Dire Avengers is 130, so it's kind of a wash points-wise.

Upgrading a pair of War Walkers to EML's w/Flakk would cost 40 points. Ouch. But I could launch 4 BS4 S7 shots at Flyers from 48" away, and S8 vs non-Flyer vehicles/MC's, with 4 blasts against infantry as an option. Might or might not be worth 40 points.

Or I could go all crazy and skip the War Walkers altogether, and have Fire Prisms, Nightspinners, and Falcons instead, so, everything a Skimmer or Jetbike. So many options.

One thing that DOES stand out is that the Vypers don't seem to be doing very much. Yeah, it's a dozen S6 Bladestorm shots, but maybe that 150 points could be spent elsewhere. Go with:
The Autarch
The Farseer
3 units of Guardians w/Warlocks or 3 units of DA in Serpents
The Shining Spears
The Crimson Hunter
2 other Grav Tanks of choice
Throw in more DA if I had points left over, stuffed in a Falcon as one of the tanks, or possibly some Fire Dragons.

The bonus there is I already have all the tanks, unpainted, sitting in a box, so I wouldn't have to buy many models. And tanks make a better palette for painting than War Walkers. I dunno though...Vypers and War Walkers just seem more fluffy and Corsair-like.

Now I'm just getting confused. And rambling. Help.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652133.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
I reckon the value of the Wave Serpent not just lies in the durability (it sucks against haywire and the like). But what it has is the ability to shoot down a lot of different targets. I use them even as my Eldar anti-air. As with a Twin-Linked Scatter Laser and a (maybe) twinlinked S7 shot, fliers don't often see it as a threat, but when it does hit it eats HP as you cant jink against it. 3 Stormtalons in a single game is my record.... and I only run 2 Serpents in 1500 points.

Fliers can be around like crazy or not at all. I have a Forgeworld Elysian list that has 6 Valkyrie variants in it. However as someone who plays that style of army I find it hard getting points in missions as I have to land first. The benefit you would have would be Objective Secured transports.

I think a valid tactic is either plan to target air, or ignore it completely. Trying to own the ground and win through objective grabbing.

Remember you do have access to guide. So with the right positioning you can always reroll any misses. Something like the Hornet (yes, those again) with 2 pulse lasers only costs 80 points. From IA Apocalypse (which you would need to use the Eldar FW Flier anyway). They are AV 11,11,10 with 2 HP. But can always jink, and more importantly are immune to bolter fire from the front...

A tactic with those, is to utilise the fact that they can move flat out and still snapshot. So guide, 30" move (so now you are shooting back armour of any flier), and 12 S8 AP2 hits for 240 points...

Hopefully that give you some food for thought

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point to make is that the Hornet is in the Corsair army list from IA 11. So as fluffy as you like...

I am looking through IA 11 now...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652198.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:
Long post.... will try to help out where I can

I reckon the value of the Wave Serpent not just lies in the durability (it sucks against haywire and the like). But what it has is the ability to shoot down a lot of different targets. I use them even as my Eldar anti-air. As with a Twin-Linked Scatter Laser and a (maybe) twinlinked S7 shot, fliers don't often see it as a threat, but when it does hit it eats HP as you cant jink against it. 3 Stormtalons in a single game is my record.... and I only run 2 Serpents in 1500 points.

Fliers can be around like crazy or not at all. I have a Forgeworld Elysian list that has 6 Valkyrie variants in it. However as someone who plays that style of army I find it hard getting points in missions as I have to land first. The benefit you would have would be Objective Secured transports.

I think a valid tactic is either plan to target air, or ignore it completely. Trying to own the ground and win through objective grabbing.

Remember you do have access to guide. So with the right positioning you can always reroll any misses. Something like the Hornet (yes, those again) with 2 pulse lasers only costs 80 points. From IA Apocalypse (which you would need to use the Eldar FW Flier anyway). They are AV 11,11,10 with 2 HP. But can always jink, and more importantly are immune to bolter fire from the front...

A tactic with those, is to utilise the fact that they can move flat out and still snapshot. So guide, 30" move (so now you are shooting back armour of any flier), and 12 S8 AP2 hits for 240 points...

Hopefully that give you some food for thought

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point to make is that the Hornet is in the Corsair army list from IA 11. So as fluffy as you like...

I am looking through IA 11 now...

Thanks again for the comments. I'd love to put some of those Hornets in the list, but I doubt most event organizers allow IA units or lists at their tournaments. I might pick up a pair just because they are cool models, and if I got to use them from time-to-time, cool. If not, I suppose they could be stand-ins for Vypers. Large, harder-to-hide Vypers.

I was just going to use the Phoenix as my "counts-as" Crimson Hunter, since it is so much cooler of a model, despite, again, being bigger. Most people aren't hiding flyers I would imagine anyway, so it should be less of a problem.

I am seeing what you are saying...if my opponent brings a single flyer or two, I'll likely have no problem taking care of them, Crimson Hunter or not. And if they bring a half-dozen, well, the Crimson Hunter won't be enough. So either bring MORE anti-air (i.e. plan on bringing the Crimson Hunter AND putting EML's with Flakk on War Walkers), or skip it entirely and rely more on volume S6 firepower to bring them down. I forgot that Guide was the Primaris power, so I can always have it if I want.

I'll probably buy the Phoenix, and if I am playing a larger game (2k, for example), just add it in to the list for fun.

How do you feel about the EML's? They seem really expensive for something that won't work well against MEQ armies. Ok vs Hordes (Scatter Lasers are MUCH cheaper), mediocre against heavier vehicles, great against Flyers, fairly useless against MEQ. They seem very situational to me, and not a "no-brainer" choice for a tournament where you don't know what you'll be facing.

I should probably go with a third Serpent with Troops, put TL BL's on them for heavy tanks, and load the War Walkers up with Scatter Lasers, like you are suggesting. 2 Walkers with Guide are 16 re-rolled S6 shots...should get SOME 6's in there when shooting at a Flyer...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gathering from comments here and elsewhere this list could be made better. The choices could come down between DA or Guardians in the Serpents...the DA would be more expensive, but with the 4+/5++ available to them, better at holding objectives. More staying power.

I could also be swapping in tanks for other stuff. Fun!

It could, for example, look like this:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
Troops
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
Fast Attack
6 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Hit & Run (175 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch w/Marksman's Eye (190 points)
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (285 points)
---1850 points

Thats the base, anyway, as an idea. With this as a starting point, I could have up to 400 points to mess around with...drop the DA Exarchs (90), Drop a Shining Spear (25), Drop the War Walkers (285). That would be 400 points I could throw other Grav Tanks in with, to change things up. Hell, a Prism w/Holo-Field is only 140, and the Nightspinner is 10 less. I could put 2 Nightspinners and a Prism in for a change-up.

Or add a Falcon with Dragons in it (250-ish) and throw the Vypers back in to run alongside it. Fun there too.

Could even keep 2 of the Walkers while dumping the Exarchs, and have 185 points to play with. A second Crimson Hunter and another Shining Spear???

I guess it would really all boil down to the decision between DA, DA with the Exarch, or Guardians with the Warlock. Whichever I found to be more useful would dictate how many points I had left.

SO MANY POSSIBILITIES! WHEEEE!

Anyway, this list seems stronger than the first, while still remaining nice and fluffy-Corsair. Back to that last question...DA Exarchs with Shimmershields to try and hold objectives, or just DA's/Guardians?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652271.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
Winners:
wave serpents with scatter lasers (obscene) with shuriken canon And holo fields

Hornets with pulse lasers

Revenant titans with pulsars

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

Guardian Defenders

Wraithknights (no upgrades)

Scatter Lasers

Losers:
Banshees

Scorpions

Phoenix Lords

Storm Guardians

Star Canons

Power Swords

The rest of the codex is situational I can use most of it. You can take forge world now. The rules for this are in a thing called escallation. Anything can be used. Some tourneys don't allow escallation. Lists can be any force org. This is called an unbounded army and it affects scoring units. Some tourneys don't allow unbound lists.

Cover is also MORE important i.e. your good AP guns can be mitigated by your opponent using cover.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know you like dire avengers but guardians are now BS4 the catapults rend and they can fire on overwatch. They are 9pts each. Brilliant value. The debate rages some people love dire avangers but in all honesty 3 squads of guardian defenders in 3 wave serpents put out 60 shots that rend on 6's when you "dump and pump". The wave serpent is probably the best tank in the game. The joke is it is also a transport. Arguably there are vendettas and chaos flying chickens but these are fliers. Always fire the sheild. ALWAYS. Always fire everything. always. It is D6 + 8 shots per serpent. all twin linked. All str 6 or 7 and about half ignore cover. Use cover and get a natural 3+ cover save. Hang additional wave serpents "off the tail" of the front one and if ur careful you can have them all in hard cover not having to jink. If you do jink shoot fliers next go or go flat out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652436.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

ConanMan wrote:

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

I literally never, ever thought these words would be typed. By anyone. Anywhere.

What makes the Spiders so good now? I mean, they used to be awesome...popping in, dropping monofilament flamer templates EVERYWHERE, disappearing. But they were expensive as hell. Would have figured Assault 2 instead of a Template would have neutered them to uselessness.

It is unlikely I will pop for some Revenants, or even a Wraithknight, despite how cool the models are. I have a huge Eldar Epic army, and if I want to play with Titans, I'll do it there, I guess. Still, good to know about the possibility to use IA units in a list...those Hornets seem too good to be true.

I weep a little that apparently my Banshees and Scorpions are now worthless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, the DA vs Guardian thing is kind of moot. I'll be modelling Corsairs, basically Eldar with armor and Catapults, so I'll play a bunch of games and then decide which one I am going to stuff in the Serpents. The models will work for either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652455.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
MOVE: move 6+2D6.
RUN: "run D6" (rerollable) BUT can *shoot then run* or *run then shoot*
ASSAULT: "assault" 2D6, but it's not a "charge" they can therefore go whereever they like, not into CC.

They fire 2 shots str6 rending (but count as str7 vs vehicles!)

And they deep strike.

How to use? Get squads of 10. I use 2 of these. Hop about doing 40 shots of hate in the back lines and never get caught in melee . Always use full jump. Let one or 2 die to malfunctions.

Oh, and a full squad is only 190 points. So long as you avoid exarchs. So taking 20 is not hard at all even in 1000pt list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652476.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
That being said I am a fan of the Warp Spiders. I keep a few back for kill team events

Could you get a hold of IA 11? There must be a download available somewhere online. Not to use the list (a lot of units are cheaper from the codex now). But for idea of what types of units are already in there and keeping to your idea]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652550.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652609.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:
Eldar Jetbikes move in every phase, plus they have a 3+, plus they are toughness 4, plus they are in the corsair list...

That being said I am a fan of the Warp Spiders. I keep a few back for kill team events

Could you get a hold of IA 11? There must be a download available somewhere online. Not to use the list (a lot of units are cheaper from the codex now). But for idea of what types of units are already in there and keeping to your idea

I'm actually wondering if I don't have a copy in a box around here somewhere. A lot of my stuff is still packed from the last couple moves...I need to go dig through some boxes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amusement...tinged with sadness. I found my IA book! Unfortunately, it's IA 2. I forgot...I'm old.

Looks like I will have to get the newer one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652652.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

ConanMan wrote:
Jet bikes canot move in the shooting phase

Then why do they have battle focus.... Rules as intended...

That's how my local gaming group play it anyway

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And unfortunately that IA 2 has probably been replaced. We are now onto the 2nd Edition of that one]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652704.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... BRB)

:EDIT:

Actually I might be getting it wrong. They CAN battle focus move 2D6 in the shooting phase ( and still shoot prior to this.) but jetbikes cannot move in the assault phase. I had always assumed it was a 2D6 jump pack infantry move. I was wrong. But nevertheless jetbikes move in movement, and shooting, but jetbikes don't "thrust" move like jump pack infantry do in the assault phase (p66 BRB)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652844.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Jet bikes canot move in the shooting phase

Because GW sucks at writing books. Bikes can't run, so can not use battle focus.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652874.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

ConanMan wrote:
Technically guardian bikers, shining spears, warlocks and farseers have battle focus but as bikers they cannot "run" in the shooting phase. (P63 BRB)

:EDIT:

Actually I might be getting it wrong. They CAN battle focus move 2D6 in the shooting phase ( and still shoot prior to this.) but jetbikes cannot move in the assault phase. I had always assumed it was a 2D6 jump pack infantry move. I was wrong. But nevertheless jetbikes move in movement, and shooting, but jetbikes don't "thrust" move like jump pack infantry do in the assault phase (p66 BRB)

Look up Elder Jetbikes in the rule book. They do get to move in the assault phase, they have been able to for a couple of editions

Guess the other point is whatever you make it to be. It hasn't been taken away from the jetbikes in the faq, which I would assume would be a simple fix if it was in fact a mistake. I don't play bikes myself so cant honestly comment, only how I see other people play it in my gaming group]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652927.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... ) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7652978.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... Don't worry about wandering off on tangents. I enjoy them, and I find the discussion meaningful and relevant, since I am going to be playing with Jetbikes.

Any thoughts on Swooping Hawks? FW makes Corsair conversions with jump packs...I'm not particularly impressed by them, but I could model my own, and throw some Hawks in the list too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653044.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
From one old man to another, Welcome Back! (I've been enjoying 40k since early second edition!)

As has been stated already, the Eldar codex is highly competitive in a competent players hands. What I've seen of the "new" Harlequin codex, they are going to be as they've always been; the ultimate glass hammer. Able to hit hard and fast, but completely unable to withstand any type of incoming fire. When you compare the point cost of a basic harlequin with a kiss to a fire dragon, the harlequin comes up short (even at two points cheaper). So as far as rolling with a competitive themed army, I'd stick with codex Eldar for my primary CAD and if you've got your heart set on harlequins use one of the formations as an allied formation.

Anyway, onto the strengths of the Eldar codex. As has been stated, the wave serpent is a staple in almost any competitive Eldar force. Personally I run two, sometimes three, in a competitive list. All with TL scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, and holo-fields. For me (and most people I believe) this is the optimal load-out. What you put in them dire avengers, or guardians, is all personal preference. Guardians are cheaper so you get more of them, dire avengers have better range. Really though anything with massed shuriken weaponry is a threat to infantry, so either works.

As far as aspect warriors go most exarchs are now a waste of points (Striking scorpions being the exception).

Warp spiders, YES! I remember the days of monofilament templates and feel they are as powerful, or more, now than they were then, due to their speed and firepower. Try a unit of ten and get back with me. (Don't worry about an exarch upgrade as they come stock with "hit and run" now).

Wraithknights. I love the model (That was enough for me!). They are hard to kill and can pack some serious firepower, not to mention they are the ultimate can opener in close combat- ST10+2d6 armor penetration and AP2. Being a jump unit they can move fast enough to stay in the fight. Some people run two in competitive lists, as dealing with more than one can be problematic for most armies.

Fire dragons were, and are, a staple in most Eldar armies. Who doesn't love a unit packing meltaguns and melta-bombs, that also have battle focus and fleet.

War walkers need to be role specific. Either three, all with two scatter lasers for anti-infantry, or all with two brightlances for anti-armor. Not much in between I'm afraid.

Jetbikes are great at grabbing objectives late game from anywhere on the board due to their speed, but are otherwise limited by the range of their guns. So minimal squads are what most people use. I've had decent luck running a unit of six with two shuriken cannons, but to really make them effective you've got to sink the points into a warlock on a jetbike as well; and those are usually points better spent elsewhere.

I like dark reapers. I'm probably in the minority; but their ability to ignore jink saves, or rather jink saves can't be taken against them, coupled with a 48in range, allows you to destroy bikes. Which are fairly common in Eldar and Space Marine lists.

Farseers, spiritseers, and warlocks are all useful. The farseer and warlocks for their ability to buff their units, or those around them, and the spiritseer for his ability to buff units and take psychic shriek.

I feel the crimson hunter is over costed, but I also don't regularly play against flyers. My opinion might be different if I did.

Banshees are a bust. Sorry, but leave them in the case for now.

Swooping hawks are great in maelstrom missions for being able to secure points, but are really only useful assaulting vehicles otherwise and most of the time they won't get there.

I like striking scorpions, but like a lot of other things they become situational. They're great for taking out marine scouts or heavy weapon squads left in cover to hold objectives, and if put in a wave serpent they give it the ability to infiltrate and outflank. The exarch can take a ST6 AP2 power weapon that strikes in initiative order, but I'm still not sure this justifies taking them. Although I have.

Wraithguard, situational.

Wraithblades and wraithlords may as well stay packed away.

Fire prisms still work, but lose most of their fire power if you jink.

Anyway I know I'm missing some things, but this pretty well covers most of the basics.

So good luck.

From one old man to another.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653091.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653106.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

ConanMan wrote:
.. it says in black and white (or rather white on black

) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D

Sorry, stand corrected

Always happy to learn and sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread a little

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653169.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

ConanMan wrote:
Your army list seems fine. The winners in units in Eldar are

Winners:
wave serpents with scatter lasers (obscene) with shuriken canon And holo fields

They're often more optimized without the Shuriken canon though.

ConanMan wrote:

Hornets with pulse lasers

They look insanely strong but they've got 2HP and AV11, I'll reserve my judgment until I get some tabletop time with them, do note that they were absent from LVO.

ConanMan wrote:

Revenant titans with pulsars

Still very good, not as good as it was in v6 because strength D allows cover saves five times out of six, it may even be too weak compared to mainstream units now. More testing required.

ConanMan wrote:

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

There's lots of talk about Warp Spiders, but honestly I don't find them nearly as good as Wave Serpents. They're good alright, but probably not best infantry unit in the game.

ConanMan wrote:

Guardian Defenders

They're usable now, but they're not "good". With an effective range of 12" and an inability to handle assault from anything, they get one good shooting phase, maybe two if you're lucky and then it's over.

ConanMan wrote:

Wraithknights (no upgrades)

Scatter Lasers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know you like dire avengers but guardians are now BS4 the catapults rend and they can fire on overwatch. They are 9pts each. Brilliant value. The debate rages some people love dire avangers but in all honesty 3 squads of guardian defenders in 3 wave serpents put out 60 shots that rend on 6's when you "dump and pump". The wave serpent is probably the best tank in the game. The joke is it is also a transport. Arguably there are vendettas and chaos flying chickens but these are fliers. Always fire the sheild. ALWAYS. Always fire everything. always. It is D6 + 8 shots per serpent. all twin linked. All str 6 or 7 and about half ignore cover. Use cover and get a natural 3+ cover save. Hang additional wave serpents "off the tail" of the front one and if ur careful you can have them all in hard cover not having to jink. If you do jink shoot fliers next go or go flat out.

Both Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders are ok troops, nothing special, nothing awesome, especially for their price with their measly S3T3 and bad armor save.

Again, the Wave Serpent does not have D6+8 shots, if you're using it properly you'll be snap-firing with the Shuriken Cannon most of the time, and many times it will be out of range to keep the WS safe from any charge range.

This has caused many competitive list builders like myself to simply drop it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ConanMan wrote:
.. it says in black and white (or rather white on black ) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D

AFAIK you can run with some jetbikes: all those that were purchased as upgrades to characters (Warlocks, Farseers, Autarchs) that had the Fleet rule to begin with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7653769.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... d6 (with reroll) to the range of any weapon.

Plus if used correctly it can get your paper thin eldar into cover, or out of the way for something else to take the onslaught.

Sadly guardians and da aren't the sturdiest/most reliable troop choices out there. But if you want to use serpents (which most everyone recommends) then they are a must, unless you use wraiths....

If they are just to open up the ability to take serpents then min DA squads would be my recommendation. You get the extra point of armour (making them at least not auto fall down to bolter fire), an extra point of leadership (eldar will run off...), counterattack and 6" extra range. You just need to ask yourself if that is worth 4 points a model]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654084.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:
It is important to remember though that with battle focus you can effectively add d6 (with reroll) to the range of any weapon.

Plus if used correctly it can get your paper thin eldar into cover, or out of the way for something else to take the onslaught.

Sadly guardians and da aren't the sturdiest/most reliable troop choices out there. But if you want to use serpents (which most everyone recommends) then they are a must, unless you use wraiths....

If they are just to open up the ability to take serpents then min DA squads would be my recommendation. You get the extra point of armour (making them at least not auto fall down to bolter fire), an extra point of leadership (eldar will run off...), counterattack and 6" extra range. You just need to ask yourself if that is worth 4 points a model

If you move d6" closer, you are d6" closer, and you will be charged d6" easier.

Battle Focus is great, but you have to do move and shoot one after the other for the same unit if you want to do it, and it's generally used as additional movement, imperial knight shield sidestep or retreat.

As both are just shooters, the Guardian generally outperforms the Dire Avengers, after all we're talking +25 points to get twice the firepower.

Their inferior armor is then compensated by double the number of bodies, same cover saves, better resistance from AP4 onwards, better CC potential, much better bubble wrap, anti Deep Strike or ground control, etc.

The only case where DA are better is when you want a cheaper unit to enable a Wave Serpent, and that's great too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654175.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... D6 move. I meant the extra move can sometimes be the key in finishing off the last few cc monsters. When you have to kill them or they do you. So making all your shots count is important.

That is what I meant by it. Its use is very situational. Can be great for sidestepping an armour value you cant hurt to glance something to death, or move away from an objective, shoot, then back to still score the points.

Yeah, the transport capacity of a serpent does limit the size of your guardian squad. So is 12 guardians better value than 10 DA, assuming they would both be in a serpent?

I ask as i dont a actually know. Guess it all comes down to the theme you have for your list]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654433.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
So if you're not sticking to the strict minimum which is 65 points for 5 Dire Avengers, the only other optimization point that makes sense to me is 10 Guardians at 90 points.

You spend 25 points to get twice the dakka and twice the bodies without over investing in something that's not really interesting anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7654784.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
I was guessing that holding objectives was going to be pretty important in the current game. As such, I was looking for something reasonably survivable to do it with, and the 10 DA with a 4+/5++ seemed to fit the bill way better than 11 Guardians and a Warlock. More expensive, but not brutally so (139 for 11 Guardians and a Warlock w/Spear vs 160 for the DA and Exarch w/Powerweapon and Shimmershield, so only 21 points different), and it seemed like they would be a lot tougher, especially if I backed them up with the Serpents and/or the Shining Spears and Autarch for counter-assaulting anything that got to the DA, or going after things before they could. Is that the wrong way to go? Is it actually better to take 6 5-man DA squads, with three on foot and three in the Serpents? It just seemed like they would end up dead or fleeing as fast as the Guardians.

Speaking of the Serpents, I'm unfamiliar with the new vehicle rules as far as moving or shooting. I was worried that spending the 10 points to upgrade the Catapults to a Cannon would be a waste, as I might never get to shoot it. The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the case...I would either be hunkered down in cover somewhere dumping the Shield as a shooting weapon along with the Turret (and thus, likely out of range for the underslung Cannon), or I would be moving around, and then I would be using it as Snap Shots (useful against a Flyer, but little else). Would I be better off to save 5 points per model and go with the base TL Catapults and then a set of TL Bright Lances or Scatter Lasers? It was mentioned elsewhere that I might be light on dedicated anti-tank shooting. Basically I only have the Crimson Hunter for that role right now, so a few more Bright Lances never hurt. Very durable Bright Lances at that, and twin-linked. I could put that on all 3 of the Serpents, and leave the volume firepower with the Scatter Lasers on the War Walkers.

Also, it was mentioned elsewhere that I went overboard on the Vehicle Gear for those War Walkers. Someone mentioned that I could take 2 groups of 2 of them, instead of 1 group of 3, if I dumped the Vehicle Gear (75 points of Holo-Fields and Ghostwalk Matrices). Are they durable enough without the Holo-Fields? I was expecting to be running them through cover all the time to keep them alive, and a 4+ or 3+ Cover Save seemed better than their 5++ in nearly every case. Am I wrong on this? Should I dump that and run 4 of them instead of 3?

Heck, dropping the Shuriken Cannon upgrades on the Serpents (15 points after upgrading the Turret weapons) and the Ghostwalk Matrices on the Walkers (30 points) gets me halfway to another War Walker WITH a Holo-Field (85 points). I could probably scrounge up the 40 points somewhere...

Thanks again for the great info and opinions!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7655795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7655795.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
As a dedicated transport for a troop choice in a CAD the serpents have objective secured as well

IMO 3 or 4 serpents would be enough to hold objectives in the current format]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7656057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7656057.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... DAs as well.

Both are extremely inefficient, since just 10 Guardians get the exact same cover save and damage output at range.

It's actually better to take as little troops as possible since they just don't carry their weight.

Wave Serpent is 100% Scatter Lasers, bright lances would be foolish with the "laser lock" special rule.

That is also why 3 Wave Serpents and a Crimson Hunter will be enough anti air.

Vehicle gear on anything below 115 points is a waste of points.

In general, you want to get as many things as possible in a list, with the mandatory equipment (scatter laser on Serpents), the very recommended equipment (holofields on serpents), and that's it.

Anything else and you fall into inefficiency, that's where you end up facing an army that has 1.5 times or two times your damage output because they skipped all the near-useless stuff, like the 5++ on a DA squad, or the 11th guardian and the warlock.

For the price of your 10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch and kit, you can almost get two units of 10 Guardians, that should tell you something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7657073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7657073.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... DA for 65 points, just so I can pick up the Serpents? I could save 95 points per squad at that point, or 25 points over the Guardians, and still have the Serpents. At the same time, I should make sure everything is either 5 models, 9 models, or 13 models, from the standpoint of Morale checks (when you end up taking them, and if you can rally if you fail them).

To my mind, that sort of defeats the purpose of actually playing the game, modelling cool minis, painting them, and having a theme or background for the army. I'm not trying to make an old school "'Ard Boyz" list here, just one that will be competitive enough while still being fun to play and play against, and looking cool on the table or display board. We all know looking cool is half the battle!

Here is what I mentioned as another option on another board where I have a similar thread going:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (170 points)
Troops
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Hit & Run (150 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch (180 points)
---1485 points

And then, 365 points for Heavy Support (or other upgrades/units elsewhere)...or have 455 points if I dump the Exarchs and Shimmershields (which cost 90 for 3 models, and may not be worth it). Examples:

2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields (170 points)
2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields (170 points)
1 additional Shining Spear (25)
---1850 points

6 Fire Dragons (132), Falcon w/BL or SL, Holo-field, Spirit Stone (160)
2 additional Shining Spears (50)
23 points to spend elsewhere in the list
---1850

2 Fire Prisms or Night Spinners w/Holo-fields, Spirit Stones (300/290)
2 additional Shining Spears and/or points elsewhere (50 + 15 or 25 extra)
---1850

1 Fire Prism or Night Spinner w/Holo-field, Spirit Stone (150/140)
10 Swooping Hawks, Exarch w/Hawk's Talon, Hit & Run (195)
1 additional Shining Spear
---1850-ish (either 1845 to 1855)

365 points of a Faolchu's Blade formation of Harlequin
---1850

1 Fire Prism or Night Spinner w/Holo-field, Spirit Stone (150/140)
3 Vypers w/weapon upgrades and Holo-fields (190/200)
1 additional Shining Spear (25)
---1850

Or any combination of those models to add up to 365/455 points (or a bit less if I am playing a smaller game). It seems like the HQ, Troops, and FA I listed would be a nice, solid core to build around with the rest of the points. And then I could switch up the list with those points, or have spare models lying around for a larger game. Fiddle around with what I find effective...instead of an extra Shining Spear, for example, I could get Runes of Warding/Witnessing for the Farseer, or Runes of Witnessing and Marksman's Eye for the Crimson Hunter, or Shield of Grace on the DA Exarchs to help prevent insta-death in Challenges and keep their 5++ longer, or whatever. Plenty of ways to spend small amounts of points (Runes, a Spear, additional Exarch abilities, etc.). Flexibility. Easy to swap units in and out as required (or if something isn't allowed at an event, like Flyers).

It seems to be just enough "hardness" without being an ass-clown about it; I'm not trying to anger people. Right now I'm looking at a core of 3 Tanks with 30-36 Troops (whatever they turn out to be, DA or Guardians), a half-dozen CC Jetbikes, a Flyer, and some HQ. And then a broad spectrum of minis to add in to change up the core army...War Walkers, Grav Tanks, Harlequin, Swooping Hawks...but overall not more than 20-25 more minis regardless of the choices I wanted at the time. Overall, I'd have about 75 models total, and be able to field a bunch of different things depending on mood, Event rules, points level, or effectiveness.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, I appreciate your comments and POV. I'm just sort of trying to explain my mindset, and ask for advice on some specifics about what is or isn't useless or useful. I don't really want to have useless suicide squads of garbage troops, just so I can get arguably the best tank around. It's never been how I did things. If I went with Guardians, I'd get 11 and put a Warlock with them, even if it wasn't optimal. The Exarchs might go though...its a LOT of points for that 5++. I see that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7659070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7659070.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7659928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7659928.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...
The fire prism/night spinner is a decent tank. Each has it's uses, not sure how you are with modelling but I would recommend magnetising the options if you go for this tank.

Then you could use whichever fit in with the themE of the day and you won't be limited to always using the same one. I also magnetised all the underslung weapons on my grav tanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7660215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7660215.page GMT [1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out...

9unit9 wrote:
Sounds like you have the right approach. The hobby comes first :-)

The fire prism/night spinner is a decent tank. Each has it's uses, not sure how you are with modelling but I would recommend magnetising the options if you go for this tank.

Then you could use whichever fit in with the themE of the day and you won't be limited to always using the same one. I also magnetised all the underslung weapons on my grav tanks.

Yes. Right now I have 5 Falcon chassis and 3 Vypers with every weapon and/or turret magnetized. I also wired them up to have LEDS in the engines. I did mess up one one bit of planning though...two of the tanks are set up for the occupant-less offset Wave Serpent turrets, and three for the regular turret. Easily solved though...I will buy one more Wave Serpent so I have the three I need, then buy three Prism and three Spinner turrets from a bits site. Done deal. Will be able to mix and match with the three Heavy Support tank choices.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7661827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7661827.page GMT Re:[1850] - Eldar - Help an old man out... - additional question
...they count as one model and I can put them in the same Wave Serpent?

So, I can buy 10 Guardians, a Weapons Platform with the weapon of my choice, and a Warlock, and put them all in a Wave Serpent? Or am I reading that wrong?

That will definitely make the choice between Dire Avengers and Guardians an interesting one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7669524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/638854/7669524.page GMT