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Hey gang. LONG time, no post. I was hoping I could get a little help with a couple lists I was thinking of, mostly because I have the itch to begin modelling and painting again, now that I find myself with a little free time once in a while.

First off, bear this in mind...I haven't played 40K in 10 years. The last time I played was edition 3.5; I'm primarily a Fantasy player, but I haven't even managed to play that in 5 years. Life has finally calmed down, though, and I'd like to start playing again, which would likely mean travelling to cons, tournaments, etc., as I live in a fairly rural area (there are some people I can find to play against for practice, but it would be sporadic).

So, this is going to be a lot of Theoryhammer on my part, from an old RT-era geezer. I've always liked the Eldar the best, and although I have several thousand points of Aspect Warriors and such, I've always wanted two other armies...a Harlequin Army, and a Corsair Fleet Army. I'm primarily motivated by modelling and painting, and trying to stick to a theme, but I would still like a chance to win games in a competitive environment, and not just bring some gimplist my opponent will be bored walking over.

So, I'd like some opinions and guidance on how the following two lists might play in a competitive 7th edition environment. I'm reasonably familiar with the rules, but, as I said, I haven't played 7th edition yet, or even 6th. So, if you get really specific, please explain a bit for my benefit.

Harlequin list
HQ
Solitaire (Autarch) - Mantle of the Laughing God, Shard of Anaris, The Phoenix Gem (178 points...it's my understanding I have to buy a Scorpion Chainsword for 3 points, then replace it with the Shard)
Master Shadowseer (Farseer) (100 points)
Shadowseers (2 Warlocks) - Singing Spears and Jetbikes (110 points)
Troops
Harlequin Jetbikes (6 Windrider Jetbikes) - 2x Shuriken Cannons (122 points)
Harlequin Jetbikes (6 Windrider Jetbikes) - 2x Shuriken Cannons (122 points)
Mimes (10 Dire Avengers) - Master Mime (Exarch) w/Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Shield of Grace (170 points)
Mimes (10 Dire Avengers) - Master Mime (Exarch) w/Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Shield of Grace (170 points)
Elites
Harlequin Troupe (10 Harlequin) - Troupe Master (w/Kiss), Shadowseer, Death Jester; 7x Harlequin Kisses, 2x Fusion Pistols (288 points)
Harlequin Troupe (10 Harlequin) - Troupe Master (w/Kiss), Shadowseer, Death Jester; 7x Harlequin Kisses, 2x Fusion Pistols (288 points)
Fast Attack
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
--1848 points.

The modelling and painting potential of this list is endless and exciting. I've always wanted a Harlequin list, as I mentioned. As far as the list itself, well, it seems like the Solitaire was just meant to be. The Mantle is literally designed for such a model, and the Shard is just a souped-up Kiss. The Gem is one final trick from the Laughing God himself. It's awesomely neat. The Jetbikes with Warlocks (probably just using Conceal) fit really well too, and of course the Harlequin Troupes are what the list is based around. The Avengers as Mimes are all I can really think to put in there (I don't want an entirely Jetbike-based list), but the Exarch with the Shimmershield basically gives everyone a Holofield save, so it fits. The Vypers are just for fun, and because they fit well enough and will be a great canvas for painting.

The Farseer...he's sort of the problem child. Nothing wrong with having a more powerful Seer in the list, but I literally feel like I am including him for one reason alone...to hopefully eat up my opponent's Warding/Dispel attempts, allowing me to get the Veil of Tears and Conceals and such off. It just seems like without those abilities, I'll have most of my models picked up off the table in short order. So, basically he just feels tacked-on...like he is there to add 3 more dice to my Psychic Phase, and make it more successful. He'd just be running along with the Mimes doing...Farseer stuffs, I guess. I don't really know what I would do with the 100 points though. I guess I could swap him out for a second Autarch, as a Great Harlequin. 100 points buys him a Jetbike, Fusion Gun, and Scorpion Chainsword, or leave him on foot and give him a Power Weapon. Dunno.

A couple specific questions:
--Should I be giving them all Kisses? Seems foolish not too...especially when it's the difference between 18 and 22 points a model.
--Am I going to have too much difficulty with Vehicles? I have a couple Fusion weapons, some Singing Spears, and a ton of S6 fire, plus Haywire Grenades on the Solitaire. Do I need more? Should I swap out the dual Shuriken Cannons on some of the Vypers for TL Catapults and a Bright Lance (same cost)?
--Are flyers common enough that I will be screwed when they show up? What could I do about that?
--What else is good/bad about this list?

Anyway, the other idea (I say other, but, in reality, I want to do both) is an Eldar Corsair list. It's fairly similar, but would be painted/modelled entirely differently, and hopefully play differently too:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
2 Warlocks - Singing Spears (80 points)
Troops
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
5 Rangers (60 points)
5 Rangers (60 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Star Lance, Hit & Run (160 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch (180 points)
Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
---1843 points

Unlike the Harlequin, this list should have no problems with vehicles...10 Bright Lances, Star Lance, 6 Laser Lances, 3 Singing Spears, Pulse Laser, 8 Shuriken Cannons...might be TOO much. I magnetize all my weapon mounts, so I could swap out weapons on the War Walkers or Vypers instead of bringing so many Lances. Other than that, it has the classic Corsair feel...lots of Fast Troops, Fast Attack, and Fast Heavy Support (Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Scouts, etc.). The Farseer just seemed like a fun way to go...bouncing from cover to cover with the Spirit Stone and Mantle (+3 on Cover Saves, plus re-rolling them, and a 3+ Jetbike armor save, since he'd be giving up his Rune Armor a lot with the Stone). The Crimson Hunter could be replaced with more Vypers if we weren't playing with Flyers or something. But I want to own and paint an Eldar aircraft, so...

How will this list fare in a competitive environment? Any suggestions to improve it?

Thanks for reading all this (if you did). I appreciate any help. You might see it on a couple other boards too.

The one thing I would say is look into the new Harlequin codex and the plastic quin models...

Wave Serpents are one of the most powerful units currently in the game. They're cheap, nigh-indestructible, and have incredible firepower. (Make sure to take holo-fields!)
"Serpent Spam" is a thing. It won't make your friends happy, but it is quite competitive.

In that second list, your War Walkers are crap. Take at least one Scatter Laser each (for twin-linking fun), and either a Lance or a second SL.

In general, Scatter Lasers are very good. High number of shots, often TL, and the ability to TL the rest of the model's shooting. Take SL/SC on your Serpents.

If you drop those Rangers, you could fit in a few more Warlocks, perhaps on Bikes?

There's a new Harlequin Codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Wave Serpents are one of the most powerful units currently in the game. They're cheap, nigh-indestructible, and have incredible firepower. (Make sure to take holo-fields!)
"Serpent Spam" is a thing. It won't make your friends happy, but it is quite competitive.

In that second list, your War Walkers are crap. Take at least one Scatter Laser each (for twin-linking fun), and either a Lance or a second SL.

In general, Scatter Lasers are very good. High number of shots, often TL, and the ability to TL the rest of the model's shooting. Take SL/SC on your Serpents.

If you drop those Rangers, you could fit in a few more Warlocks, perhaps on Bikes?

Thanks for the comments!

Well, no Serpents with the Harlequin, but I have two in the Corsair list. Hopefully that's not "spam."

I figured I needed the Rangers for more Troops choices, and possibly to hold objectives and such. Where would I put the Warlocks on Bikes? Or would they just be a unit on their own? Would they do better than the Rangers?

Originally, I had 2 more Vypers and no Crimson Hunter in the list. Then one pair of the Walkers had EML's with Flakk missiles on them. But I decided I wanted the Flyer, for painting. If I get you right, you are saying I have enough tank hunting stuff, and I should outfit the Walkers for volume firepower?

Also, why do people like Scatter Lasers over Shuriken Cannons? Slightly more range, and one more shot, but the Sh. Cannon gets Rending (essentially...Bladestorm), and in my past experience, over 50% of opponents at a tournament were Marines/Chaos Marines, so it seems the ability to punch armor would be more useful? And Starcannons seem to suck now.

Kagetora wrote:
There's a new Harlequin Codex?

Yes, just came out this year! Although you will likely want to run an Eldar CAD with your Harlequin detachment/formations.

partninja wrote:

Kagetora wrote:
There's a new Harlequin Codex?

Yes, just came out this year! Although you will likely want to run an Eldar CAD with your Harlequin detachment/formations.

Wow...it only took, like...20 years. I honestly didn't think such a thing would ever happen again!

Shooting first with a scatter laser lets you "Laser Lock" the other weapons fired by that model.

So on wave serpent the laser lock lets you fire the S7 Ignore cover shield D6+1 shot shield, basically becoming a twin-linked light armour killing machine

Same on the war walkers, firing the SL first will twin link the second weapon. I do argue though that 2 SL on a war walker must be fired at the same time so a SL may never benefit from laser lock (as "All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot...", a SL is still a SL, whether you have 1 or 2 of them)

9unit9 wrote:
Shooting first with a scatter laser lets you "Laser Lock" the other weapons fired by that model.

So on wave serpent the laser lock lets you fire the S7 Ignore cover shield D6+1 shot shield, basically becoming a twin-linked light armour killing machine

Same on the war walkers, firing the SL first will twin link the second weapon. I do argue though that 2 SL on a war walker must be fired at the same time so a SL may never benefit from laser lock (as "All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot...", a SL is still a SL, whether you have 1 or 2 of them)

Yeah, I got that out of the Laser Lock rule too...but I suppose if you wanted to TL you second weapon, like a Starcannon, it would be useful. But, why not just take a pair of Starcannons in the first place, since the Scatter Laser isn't going to even scratch more than half your targets? Typically, I judge most units and weapons on how they are going to perform against Marines/Chaos Marines, since that seems to be more than half of the armies you see at events.

2 Walkers, each with 2 SL's, get 16 shots. Impressive. BS 4 gives you 10 hits (10.166, or something around there). Probably 8 wounds. 2-3 dead Marines. With Starcannons, you only get half as many shots/hits/wounds, but they all just kill...4 dead Marines. This is discounting cover, of course. With that factored in, it runs about even, with the SL being better against horde armies and the SC being better against Vehicles (AP 2 for +1 on the Damage table) or Termie lists. Seems like a coin flip to me. I suppose it would be fun to take 2 of each.

Also, do you actually use the blast from the Wave Serpent shield? That seemed like suicide to me, as far as the tank was concerned...losing that 2+ conversion to glancing hits for a very random weapon that doesn't take away armor saves... Do people use it a lot? Or is it very circumstantial?

Against horde armies or light vehicles the S7 D6+1 shots at 60" range ignoring cover is pretty great, esp if you're out of retaliation range or can laserlock and think you can kill what's going to hurt you. Against MEQ (which is almost all I play against) they're just not as good.

Interesting. I'd just assumed it wasn't going to be all that useful. I suppose if you had positioned yourself with a really good cover save and the Holo-Field, and had a juicy target for the blast (it has a huge range), I guess I could see giving it a try. I just don't tend to be all that lucky with such things, though...

the shield is useful if you are facing a skimmer or a flier with 1 or 2 HP left, something that would normal just jink your shot

Instead of bringing ''Harlequin'' Jetbikes and harlequin troupes from the Eldar codex, why don't you bring a detachment of the new Harlequins from Codex: Harlequins??

There is also an army list for a Corsair army in Imperial Armour 11. You should check out both the new codex for Harlequins and the Corsair army list before you make your lists

 Helvost wrote:
Instead of bringing ''Harlequin'' Jetbikes and harlequin troupes from the Eldar codex, why don't you bring a detachment of the new Harlequins from Codex: Harlequins??

There is also an army list for a Corsair army in Imperial Armour 11. You should check out both the new codex for Harlequins and the Corsair army list before you make your lists

I just found out about the Harlequin Codex from a response in this thread. It appears it's on pre-order right now...is that correct? So, yeah, I'll definitely check it out. I didn't even know it existed.

Do they allow Imperial Armor 11 Lists and models/rules/vehicles in most tournaments? In that past, when I played before, they never did, so I was trying to avoid "non-Codex" items and units.

Most tournaments probably won't allow the Corsair codex from IA 11, but there are a couple Forgeworld units from IA 11 that you could use in your Corsair army list such as the Hornet and the Warp Hunter. It also might give you some ideas for modelling as well as some fluff to work with.

 Helvost wrote:
Most tournaments probably won't allow the Corsair codex from IA 11, but there are a couple Forgeworld units from IA 11 that you could use in your Corsair army list such as the Hornet and the Warp Hunter. It also might give you some ideas for modelling as well as some fluff to work with.

I do, indeed love some of the Forgeworld models, like the Wasp, Hornet, and Phoenix. I had given some thought to picking up Wasps to use as War Walkers and Hornets to use as Vypers. Adds to the cost, but the models are definitely cool.

Hornets or War Walkers....

Hornets everyday, no question. The load out, plus speed gives you something else

Double pulse lasers would work

Nice to see an"old" player coming back.
Harlies are too fragile these days.
As an old Eldar player, I'd opt for Eldar.
As said, Serpent spam is the way yo go if you want to attend tourneys.
I'd go for a Jetseer, two small squads of Fire Dragons in Serpents, since they get almost any job done, three units of DA or Guardians in Serpents, and a WK plus some Warwalkers with dual scatterlasers. No Exarch upgrades and no spirit stones.

Hornets do fit in with this list idea as well, as their speed matches the Serpents

Yeah, eventually I'll dig out the old Biel-Tan list I had (although it needs some upgrades) if I want to be more...competitive. Go with the Wave Serpents and such. I had sort of thought about making the Corsair list a bit "harder" by basing it around 3-4 Wave Serpents filled with Guardians (skipping the Rangers and other stuff on foot). I'm struggling with seeing a reason to take Dire Avengers over Guardian, now that they are both BS 4, when you are putting them in a Serpent; the 6" additional range should end up essentially meaningless, and a Warlock with Conceal is probably just as good as an Exarch with a Shimmershield in the end (after they pile out), considering how everyone says cover saves are so crazy common now. The Dire Avengers might fit the concept a bit better (essentially "elite" Guardians with better equipment, since they aren't soft residents of a Craftworld, but Corsairs), but it could go either way.

Also, are Wave Serpents really as over-durable as everyone says? I mean, sure...downgrading every Pen to a Glance on a 2+ is awesome, but it still only takes 3 Glances against AV12 to drop it into a smoldering wreck. Even with Cover Saves, that's doable with a lot of the lists I used to see (Missile Launcher and Lascannon spam). Like I mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the practical application of the rules...how it actually happens on the table. They were very durable when I played with mine...back in the day, there were no HP, but it worked like this: A Skimmer moving over 6" automatically downgraded every shot to a Glance, the Holo-Field made you re-roll on the table, and, IIRC, the Wave Serpent's shield dropped anything over S8 to S8. So, if someone hit it with a Lascannon, for example, they had a 50% chance of inflicting a Glance, assuming it had moved. That Glance had a 1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 Weapon Destroyed, 5 Immobilized (destoyed for Skimmer), 6 Destroyed. Forcing them to re-roll meant 75% of the time you were Shaken or Stunned (which you could ignore with the Spirit Stone), and they had to roll 5-5, 5-6, 6-5, or 6-6 to destroy the vehicle. A 1-in-9 shot at it. Very durable. But it only took one shot if they got lucky, or if they went first, which improved their odds tremendously (since you hadn't moved yet, and they could get Pen hits). Are Serpents even more durable than THAT now? Because that would be kind of crazy.

As another question (yeah...I know I have a lot of them...sorry), how common are Flyers at events/tournaments? Do people actually use them a lot, or are they just an additional neat, but typically unused entry in most books? The reason I was bringing a Crimson Hunter was two-fold...to have a really cool model to paint (I was going to get a Phoenix from FW, even though yes, I know it's bigger and harder to hide), and to deal with enemy Flyers. It seems the ONLY other options I have are a Dark Reaper Exarch (not going to happen in a fluffy Corsair list) with Flakk missiles, War Walkers with Flakk missiles (CRAZY expensive), or trying to hit them on 6's (which would suck). Do I need the Crimson Hunter? I could go something like:

Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
3 Warlocks - Singing Spears (120 points)
Troops
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
11 Guardians - Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stone (249 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Star Lance, Hit & Run (160 points)
2 Vypers - 2x Shuriken Cannons (each), Holo-Fields (150 points)
Heavy Support
2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
2 War Walkers - Bright Lances (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (190 points)
---1832 points

That leaves me 18 points short or so, and I'd probably upgrade the weapons on the Wave Serpents. I'm unclear on how many weapons they are going to get to shoot each turn anyway, so upgrading the TL Catapults to a Cannon might be a total waste of points. I could put other weapons on them instead (BL/SL/SC) and save 5 points per model, or skip the upgrades altogether and save 10. Or I could put Dire Avengers in them and skip the Warlocks, but then the Farseer probably will have more trouble using their abilities (easier for the opponent to stop your Psychics). 11 Guardians + a Warlock is 139 points, 10 Dire Avengers is 130, so it's kind of a wash points-wise.

Upgrading a pair of War Walkers to EML's w/Flakk would cost 40 points. Ouch. But I could launch 4 BS4 S7 shots at Flyers from 48" away, and S8 vs non-Flyer vehicles/MC's, with 4 blasts against infantry as an option. Might or might not be worth 40 points.

Or I could go all crazy and skip the War Walkers altogether, and have Fire Prisms, Nightspinners, and Falcons instead, so, everything a Skimmer or Jetbike. So many options.

One thing that DOES stand out is that the Vypers don't seem to be doing very much. Yeah, it's a dozen S6 Bladestorm shots, but maybe that 150 points could be spent elsewhere. Go with:
The Autarch
The Farseer
3 units of Guardians w/Warlocks or 3 units of DA in Serpents
The Shining Spears
The Crimson Hunter
2 other Grav Tanks of choice
Throw in more DA if I had points left over, stuffed in a Falcon as one of the tanks, or possibly some Fire Dragons.

The bonus there is I already have all the tanks, unpainted, sitting in a box, so I wouldn't have to buy many models. And tanks make a better palette for painting than War Walkers. I dunno though...Vypers and War Walkers just seem more fluffy and Corsair-like.

Now I'm just getting confused. And rambling. Help.

Long post.... will try to help out where I can

I reckon the value of the Wave Serpent not just lies in the durability (it sucks against haywire and the like). But what it has is the ability to shoot down a lot of different targets. I use them even as my Eldar anti-air. As with a Twin-Linked Scatter Laser and a (maybe) twinlinked S7 shot, fliers don't often see it as a threat, but when it does hit it eats HP as you cant jink against it. 3 Stormtalons in a single game is my record.... and I only run 2 Serpents in 1500 points.

Fliers can be around like crazy or not at all. I have a Forgeworld Elysian list that has 6 Valkyrie variants in it. However as someone who plays that style of army I find it hard getting points in missions as I have to land first. The benefit you would have would be Objective Secured transports.

I think a valid tactic is either plan to target air, or ignore it completely. Trying to own the ground and win through objective grabbing.

Remember you do have access to guide. So with the right positioning you can always reroll any misses. Something like the Hornet (yes, those again) with 2 pulse lasers only costs 80 points. From IA Apocalypse (which you would need to use the Eldar FW Flier anyway). They are AV 11,11,10 with 2 HP. But can always jink, and more importantly are immune to bolter fire from the front...

A tactic with those, is to utilise the fact that they can move flat out and still snapshot. So guide, 30" move (so now you are shooting back armour of any flier), and 12 S8 AP2 hits for 240 points...

Hopefully that give you some food for thought



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point to make is that the Hornet is in the Corsair army list from IA 11. So as fluffy as you like...

I am looking through IA 11 now...

9unit9 wrote:
Long post.... will try to help out where I can

I reckon the value of the Wave Serpent not just lies in the durability (it sucks against haywire and the like). But what it has is the ability to shoot down a lot of different targets. I use them even as my Eldar anti-air. As with a Twin-Linked Scatter Laser and a (maybe) twinlinked S7 shot, fliers don't often see it as a threat, but when it does hit it eats HP as you cant jink against it. 3 Stormtalons in a single game is my record.... and I only run 2 Serpents in 1500 points.

Fliers can be around like crazy or not at all. I have a Forgeworld Elysian list that has 6 Valkyrie variants in it. However as someone who plays that style of army I find it hard getting points in missions as I have to land first. The benefit you would have would be Objective Secured transports.

I think a valid tactic is either plan to target air, or ignore it completely. Trying to own the ground and win through objective grabbing.

Remember you do have access to guide. So with the right positioning you can always reroll any misses. Something like the Hornet (yes, those again) with 2 pulse lasers only costs 80 points. From IA Apocalypse (which you would need to use the Eldar FW Flier anyway). They are AV 11,11,10 with 2 HP. But can always jink, and more importantly are immune to bolter fire from the front...

A tactic with those, is to utilise the fact that they can move flat out and still snapshot. So guide, 30" move (so now you are shooting back armour of any flier), and 12 S8 AP2 hits for 240 points...

Hopefully that give you some food for thought



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point to make is that the Hornet is in the Corsair army list from IA 11. So as fluffy as you like...

I am looking through IA 11 now...

Thanks again for the comments. I'd love to put some of those Hornets in the list, but I doubt most event organizers allow IA units or lists at their tournaments. I might pick up a pair just because they are cool models, and if I got to use them from time-to-time, cool. If not, I suppose they could be stand-ins for Vypers. Large, harder-to-hide Vypers. I was just going to use the Phoenix as my "counts-as" Crimson Hunter, since it is so much cooler of a model, despite, again, being bigger. Most people aren't hiding flyers I would imagine anyway, so it should be less of a problem.

I am seeing what you are saying...if my opponent brings a single flyer or two, I'll likely have no problem taking care of them, Crimson Hunter or not. And if they bring a half-dozen, well, the Crimson Hunter won't be enough. So either bring MORE anti-air (i.e. plan on bringing the Crimson Hunter AND putting EML's with Flakk on War Walkers), or skip it entirely and rely more on volume S6 firepower to bring them down. I forgot that Guide was the Primaris power, so I can always have it if I want.

I'll probably buy the Phoenix, and if I am playing a larger game (2k, for example), just add it in to the list for fun.

How do you feel about the EML's? They seem really expensive for something that won't work well against MEQ armies. Ok vs Hordes (Scatter Lasers are MUCH cheaper), mediocre against heavier vehicles, great against Flyers, fairly useless against MEQ. They seem very situational to me, and not a "no-brainer" choice for a tournament where you don't know what you'll be facing.

I should probably go with a third Serpent with Troops, put TL BL's on them for heavy tanks, and load the War Walkers up with Scatter Lasers, like you are suggesting. 2 Walkers with Guide are 16 re-rolled S6 shots...should get SOME 6's in there when shooting at a Flyer...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gathering from comments here and elsewhere this list could be made better. The choices could come down between DA or Guardians in the Serpents...the DA would be more expensive, but with the 4+/5++ available to them, better at holding objectives. More staying power.

I could also be swapping in tanks for other stuff. Fun!

It could, for example, look like this:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (200 points)
Troops
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Field (300 points)
Fast Attack
6 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Hit & Run (175 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch w/Marksman's Eye (190 points)
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields, Ghostwalk Matrices (285 points)
---1850 points

Thats the base, anyway, as an idea. With this as a starting point, I could have up to 400 points to mess around with...drop the DA Exarchs (90), Drop a Shining Spear (25), Drop the War Walkers (285). That would be 400 points I could throw other Grav Tanks in with, to change things up. Hell, a Prism w/Holo-Field is only 140, and the Nightspinner is 10 less. I could put 2 Nightspinners and a Prism in for a change-up.

Or add a Falcon with Dragons in it (250-ish) and throw the Vypers back in to run alongside it. Fun there too.

Could even keep 2 of the Walkers while dumping the Exarchs, and have 185 points to play with. A second Crimson Hunter and another Shining Spear???

I guess it would really all boil down to the decision between DA, DA with the Exarch, or Guardians with the Warlock. Whichever I found to be more useful would dictate how many points I had left.

SO MANY POSSIBILITIES! WHEEEE!

Anyway, this list seems stronger than the first, while still remaining nice and fluffy-Corsair. Back to that last question...DA Exarchs with Shimmershields to try and hold objectives, or just DA's/Guardians?

Your army list seems fine. The winners in units in Eldar are

Winners:
wave serpents with scatter lasers (obscene) with shuriken canon And holo fields

Hornets with pulse lasers

Revenant titans with pulsars

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

Guardian Defenders

Wraithknights (no upgrades)

Scatter Lasers

Losers:
Banshees

Scorpions

Phoenix Lords

Storm Guardians

Star Canons

Power Swords

The rest of the codex is situational I can use most of it. You can take forge world now. The rules for this are in a thing called escallation. Anything can be used. Some tourneys don't allow escallation. Lists can be any force org. This is called an unbounded army and it affects scoring units. Some tourneys don't allow unbound lists.


Cover is also MORE important i.e. your good AP guns can be mitigated by your opponent using cover.

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I know you like dire avengers but guardians are now BS4 the catapults rend and they can fire on overwatch. They are 9pts each. Brilliant value. The debate rages some people love dire avangers but in all honesty 3 squads of guardian defenders in 3 wave serpents put out 60 shots that rend on 6's when you "dump and pump". The wave serpent is probably the best tank in the game. The joke is it is also a transport. Arguably there are vendettas and chaos flying chickens but these are fliers. Always fire the sheild. ALWAYS. Always fire everything. always. It is D6 + 8 shots per serpent. all twin linked. All str 6 or 7 and about half ignore cover. Use cover and get a natural 3+ cover save. Hang additional wave serpents "off the tail" of the front one and if ur careful you can have them all in hard cover not having to jink. If you do jink shoot fliers next go or go flat out.

ConanMan wrote:

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

I literally never, ever thought these words would be typed. By anyone. Anywhere.

What makes the Spiders so good now? I mean, they used to be awesome...popping in, dropping monofilament flamer templates EVERYWHERE, disappearing. But they were expensive as hell. Would have figured Assault 2 instead of a Template would have neutered them to uselessness.

It is unlikely I will pop for some Revenants, or even a Wraithknight, despite how cool the models are. I have a huge Eldar Epic army, and if I want to play with Titans, I'll do it there, I guess. Still, good to know about the possibility to use IA units in a list...those Hornets seem too good to be true.

I weep a little that apparently my Banshees and Scorpions are now worthless.


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As a side note, the DA vs Guardian thing is kind of moot. I'll be modelling Corsairs, basically Eldar with armor and Catapults, so I'll play a bunch of games and then decide which one I am going to stuff in the Serpents. The models will work for either.

Warp Spiders: 3+ Armour. They move in every phase of game (I think only unit in any army that do now) i.e.

MOVE: move 6+2D6.
RUN: "run D6" (rerollable) BUT can *shoot then run* or *run then shoot*
ASSAULT: "assault" 2D6, but it's not a "charge" they can therefore go whereever they like, not into CC.

They fire 2 shots str6 rending (but count as str7 vs vehicles!)

And they deep strike.

How to use? Get squads of 10. I use 2 of these. Hop about doing 40 shots of hate in the back lines and never get caught in melee . Always use full jump. Let one or 2 die to malfunctions.

Oh, and a full squad is only 190 points. So long as you avoid exarchs. So taking 20 is not hard at all even in 1000pt list.

Eldar Jetbikes move in every phase, plus they have a 3+, plus they are toughness 4, plus they are in the corsair list...

That being said I am a fan of the Warp Spiders. I keep a few back for kill team events

Could you get a hold of IA 11? There must be a download available somewhere online. Not to use the list (a lot of units are cheaper from the codex now). But for idea of what types of units are already in there and keeping to your idea

Jet bikes canot move in the shooting phase

9unit9 wrote:
Eldar Jetbikes move in every phase, plus they have a 3+, plus they are toughness 4, plus they are in the corsair list...

That being said I am a fan of the Warp Spiders. I keep a few back for kill team events

Could you get a hold of IA 11? There must be a download available somewhere online. Not to use the list (a lot of units are cheaper from the codex now). But for idea of what types of units are already in there and keeping to your idea

I'm actually wondering if I don't have a copy in a box around here somewhere. A lot of my stuff is still packed from the last couple moves...I need to go dig through some boxes.


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Amusement...tinged with sadness. I found my IA book! Unfortunately, it's IA 2. I forgot...I'm old.

Looks like I will have to get the newer one.

ConanMan wrote:
Jet bikes canot move in the shooting phase

Then why do they have battle focus.... Rules as intended...

That's how my local gaming group play it anyway


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And unfortunately that IA 2 has probably been replaced. We are now onto the 2nd Edition of that one

Technically guardian bikers, shining spears, warlocks and farseers have battle focus but as bikers they cannot "run" in the shooting phase. (P63 BRB)

:EDIT:

Actually I might be getting it wrong. They CAN battle focus move 2D6 in the shooting phase ( and still shoot prior to this.) but jetbikes cannot move in the assault phase. I had always assumed it was a 2D6 jump pack infantry move. I was wrong. But nevertheless jetbikes move in movement, and shooting, but jetbikes don't "thrust" move like jump pack infantry do in the assault phase (p66 BRB)

9unit9 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Jet bikes canot move in the shooting phase

Then why do they have battle focus.... Rules as intended...

That's how my local gaming group play it anyway


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And unfortunately that IA 2 has probably been replaced. We are now onto the 2nd Edition of that one

Because GW sucks at writing books. Bikes can't run, so can not use battle focus.