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ConanMan wrote:
Technically guardian bikers, shining spears, warlocks and farseers have battle focus but as bikers they cannot "run" in the shooting phase. (P63 BRB)

:EDIT:

Actually I might be getting it wrong. They CAN battle focus move 2D6 in the shooting phase ( and still shoot prior to this.) but jetbikes cannot move in the assault phase. I had always assumed it was a 2D6 jump pack infantry move. I was wrong. But nevertheless jetbikes move in movement, and shooting, but jetbikes don't "thrust" move like jump pack infantry do in the assault phase (p66 BRB)

Look up Elder Jetbikes in the rule book. They do get to move in the assault phase, they have been able to for a couple of editions

Guess the other point is whatever you make it to be. It hasn't been taken away from the jetbikes in the faq, which I would assume would be a simple fix if it was in fact a mistake. I don't play bikes myself so cant honestly comment, only how I see other people play it in my gaming group

.. it says in black and white (or rather white on black ) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D

Don't worry about wandering off on tangents. I enjoy them, and I find the discussion meaningful and relevant, since I am going to be playing with Jetbikes.

Any thoughts on Swooping Hawks? FW makes Corsair conversions with jump packs...I'm not particularly impressed by them, but I could model my own, and throw some Hawks in the list too.

Well,

From one old man to another, Welcome Back! (I've been enjoying 40k since early second edition!)

As has been stated already, the Eldar codex is highly competitive in a competent players hands. What I've seen of the "new" Harlequin codex, they are going to be as they've always been; the ultimate glass hammer. Able to hit hard and fast, but completely unable to withstand any type of incoming fire. When you compare the point cost of a basic harlequin with a kiss to a fire dragon, the harlequin comes up short (even at two points cheaper). So as far as rolling with a competitive themed army, I'd stick with codex Eldar for my primary CAD and if you've got your heart set on harlequins use one of the formations as an allied formation.

Anyway, onto the strengths of the Eldar codex. As has been stated, the wave serpent is a staple in almost any competitive Eldar force. Personally I run two, sometimes three, in a competitive list. All with TL scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, and holo-fields. For me (and most people I believe) this is the optimal load-out. What you put in them dire avengers, or guardians, is all personal preference. Guardians are cheaper so you get more of them, dire avengers have better range. Really though anything with massed shuriken weaponry is a threat to infantry, so either works.

As far as aspect warriors go most exarchs are now a waste of points (Striking scorpions being the exception).

Warp spiders, YES! I remember the days of monofilament templates and feel they are as powerful, or more, now than they were then, due to their speed and firepower. Try a unit of ten and get back with me. (Don't worry about an exarch upgrade as they come stock with "hit and run" now).

Wraithknights. I love the model (That was enough for me!). They are hard to kill and can pack some serious firepower, not to mention they are the ultimate can opener in close combat- ST10+2d6 armor penetration and AP2. Being a jump unit they can move fast enough to stay in the fight. Some people run two in competitive lists, as dealing with more than one can be problematic for most armies.

Fire dragons were, and are, a staple in most Eldar armies. Who doesn't love a unit packing meltaguns and melta-bombs, that also have battle focus and fleet.

War walkers need to be role specific. Either three, all with two scatter lasers for anti-infantry, or all with two brightlances for anti-armor. Not much in between I'm afraid.

Jetbikes are great at grabbing objectives late game from anywhere on the board due to their speed, but are otherwise limited by the range of their guns. So minimal squads are what most people use. I've had decent luck running a unit of six with two shuriken cannons, but to really make them effective you've got to sink the points into a warlock on a jetbike as well; and those are usually points better spent elsewhere.

I like dark reapers. I'm probably in the minority; but their ability to ignore jink saves, or rather jink saves can't be taken against them, coupled with a 48in range, allows you to destroy bikes. Which are fairly common in Eldar and Space Marine lists.

Farseers, spiritseers, and warlocks are all useful. The farseer and warlocks for their ability to buff their units, or those around them, and the spiritseer for his ability to buff units and take psychic shriek.

I feel the crimson hunter is over costed, but I also don't regularly play against flyers. My opinion might be different if I did.

Banshees are a bust. Sorry, but leave them in the case for now.

Swooping hawks are great in maelstrom missions for being able to secure points, but are really only useful assaulting vehicles otherwise and most of the time they won't get there.

I like striking scorpions, but like a lot of other things they become situational. They're great for taking out marine scouts or heavy weapon squads left in cover to hold objectives, and if put in a wave serpent they give it the ability to infiltrate and outflank. The exarch can take a ST6 AP2 power weapon that strikes in initiative order, but I'm still not sure this justifies taking them. Although I have.

Wraithguard, situational.

Wraithblades and wraithlords may as well stay packed away.

Fire prisms still work, but lose most of their fire power if you jink.

Anyway I know I'm missing some things, but this pretty well covers most of the basics.

So good luck.

From one old man to another.

Thanks. I'll have to prop my cane up against the table so I can try out all of these things.

ConanMan wrote:
.. it says in black and white (or rather white on black ) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D

Sorry, stand corrected

Always happy to learn and sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread a little

ConanMan wrote:
Your army list seems fine. The winners in units in Eldar are

Winners:
wave serpents with scatter lasers (obscene) with shuriken canon And holo fields

They're often more optimized without the Shuriken canon though.

ConanMan wrote:

Hornets with pulse lasers

They look insanely strong but they've got 2HP and AV11, I'll reserve my judgment until I get some tabletop time with them, do note that they were absent from LVO.

ConanMan wrote:

Revenant titans with pulsars

Still very good, not as good as it was in v6 because strength D allows cover saves five times out of six, it may even be too weak compared to mainstream units now. More testing required.

ConanMan wrote:

Warp Spiders (hands down best infantry unit in game)

There's lots of talk about Warp Spiders, but honestly I don't find them nearly as good as Wave Serpents. They're good alright, but probably not best infantry unit in the game.

ConanMan wrote:

Guardian Defenders

They're usable now, but they're not "good". With an effective range of 12" and an inability to handle assault from anything, they get one good shooting phase, maybe two if you're lucky and then it's over.

ConanMan wrote:

Wraithknights (no upgrades)

Scatter Lasers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know you like dire avengers but guardians are now BS4 the catapults rend and they can fire on overwatch. They are 9pts each. Brilliant value. The debate rages some people love dire avangers but in all honesty 3 squads of guardian defenders in 3 wave serpents put out 60 shots that rend on 6's when you "dump and pump". The wave serpent is probably the best tank in the game. The joke is it is also a transport. Arguably there are vendettas and chaos flying chickens but these are fliers. Always fire the sheild. ALWAYS. Always fire everything. always. It is D6 + 8 shots per serpent. all twin linked. All str 6 or 7 and about half ignore cover. Use cover and get a natural 3+ cover save. Hang additional wave serpents "off the tail" of the front one and if ur careful you can have them all in hard cover not having to jink. If you do jink shoot fliers next go or go flat out.

Both Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders are ok troops, nothing special, nothing awesome, especially for their price with their measly S3T3 and bad armor save.

Again, the Wave Serpent does not have D6+8 shots, if you're using it properly you'll be snap-firing with the Shuriken Cannon most of the time, and many times it will be out of range to keep the WS safe from any charge range.

This has caused many competitive list builders like myself to simply drop it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ConanMan wrote:
.. it says in black and white (or rather white on black ) ) that eldar jetbikes can only move in the assault phase if they haven't already elected to move in the shooting phase.. it really does say it in black and white in the BRB, it can mov e in MOVE, TURBO in shoot OR move in MOVE and MOVE in Assault. it was my complete side note anyway, to my knowledge, Warp Spiders are the only unit that can move in all 3 phases and it is true that they can. This is also true: Jet Bikes can move in 2 of the 3 phases and there is the sentence "jet bikes cannot run" in the BRB - I was trying to be reasonable and at any rate it is there in white on black you can't do three moves. For sure at least Warp Spiders can... I am so sorry this took a massive tangent. I was trying to be tactful - I seem to suck at it. GL with your Eldar army it looks great :-D

AFAIK you can run with some jetbikes: all those that were purchased as upgrades to characters (Warlocks, Farseers, Autarchs) that had the Fleet rule to begin with.

It is important to remember though that with battle focus you can effectively add d6 (with reroll) to the range of any weapon.

Plus if used correctly it can get your paper thin eldar into cover, or out of the way for something else to take the onslaught.

Sadly guardians and da aren't the sturdiest/most reliable troop choices out there. But if you want to use serpents (which most everyone recommends) then they are a must, unless you use wraiths....

If they are just to open up the ability to take serpents then min DA squads would be my recommendation. You get the extra point of armour (making them at least not auto fall down to bolter fire), an extra point of leadership (eldar will run off...), counterattack and 6" extra range. You just need to ask yourself if that is worth 4 points a model

9unit9 wrote:
It is important to remember though that with battle focus you can effectively add d6 (with reroll) to the range of any weapon.

Plus if used correctly it can get your paper thin eldar into cover, or out of the way for something else to take the onslaught.

Sadly guardians and da aren't the sturdiest/most reliable troop choices out there. But if you want to use serpents (which most everyone recommends) then they are a must, unless you use wraiths....

If they are just to open up the ability to take serpents then min DA squads would be my recommendation. You get the extra point of armour (making them at least not auto fall down to bolter fire), an extra point of leadership (eldar will run off...), counterattack and 6" extra range. You just need to ask yourself if that is worth 4 points a model

If you move d6" closer, you are d6" closer, and you will be charged d6" easier.

Battle Focus is great, but you have to do move and shoot one after the other for the same unit if you want to do it, and it's generally used as additional movement, imperial knight shield sidestep or retreat.

As both are just shooters, the Guardian generally outperforms the Dire Avengers, after all we're talking +25 points to get twice the firepower.

Their inferior armor is then compensated by double the number of bodies, same cover saves, better resistance from AP4 onwards, better CC potential, much better bubble wrap, anti Deep Strike or ground control, etc.


The only case where DA are better is when you want a cheaper unit to enable a Wave Serpent, and that's great too.

True about the D6 move. I meant the extra move can sometimes be the key in finishing off the last few cc monsters. When you have to kill them or they do you. So making all your shots count is important.

That is what I meant by it. Its use is very situational. Can be great for sidestepping an armour value you cant hurt to glance something to death, or move away from an objective, shoot, then back to still score the points.

Yeah, the transport capacity of a serpent does limit the size of your guardian squad. So is 12 guardians better value than 10 DA, assuming they would both be in a serpent?

I ask as i dont a actually know. Guess it all comes down to the theme you have for your list

I would stick to minimum size units, there's a value to actually having more units.

So if you're not sticking to the strict minimum which is 65 points for 5 Dire Avengers, the only other optimization point that makes sense to me is 10 Guardians at 90 points.

You spend 25 points to get twice the dakka and twice the bodies without over investing in something that's not really interesting anyway.

Interesting posts. A few points/questions:

I was guessing that holding objectives was going to be pretty important in the current game. As such, I was looking for something reasonably survivable to do it with, and the 10 DA with a 4+/5++ seemed to fit the bill way better than 11 Guardians and a Warlock. More expensive, but not brutally so (139 for 11 Guardians and a Warlock w/Spear vs 160 for the DA and Exarch w/Powerweapon and Shimmershield, so only 21 points different), and it seemed like they would be a lot tougher, especially if I backed them up with the Serpents and/or the Shining Spears and Autarch for counter-assaulting anything that got to the DA, or going after things before they could. Is that the wrong way to go? Is it actually better to take 6 5-man DA squads, with three on foot and three in the Serpents? It just seemed like they would end up dead or fleeing as fast as the Guardians.

Speaking of the Serpents, I'm unfamiliar with the new vehicle rules as far as moving or shooting. I was worried that spending the 10 points to upgrade the Catapults to a Cannon would be a waste, as I might never get to shoot it. The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the case...I would either be hunkered down in cover somewhere dumping the Shield as a shooting weapon along with the Turret (and thus, likely out of range for the underslung Cannon), or I would be moving around, and then I would be using it as Snap Shots (useful against a Flyer, but little else). Would I be better off to save 5 points per model and go with the base TL Catapults and then a set of TL Bright Lances or Scatter Lasers? It was mentioned elsewhere that I might be light on dedicated anti-tank shooting. Basically I only have the Crimson Hunter for that role right now, so a few more Bright Lances never hurt. Very durable Bright Lances at that, and twin-linked. I could put that on all 3 of the Serpents, and leave the volume firepower with the Scatter Lasers on the War Walkers.

Also, it was mentioned elsewhere that I went overboard on the Vehicle Gear for those War Walkers. Someone mentioned that I could take 2 groups of 2 of them, instead of 1 group of 3, if I dumped the Vehicle Gear (75 points of Holo-Fields and Ghostwalk Matrices). Are they durable enough without the Holo-Fields? I was expecting to be running them through cover all the time to keep them alive, and a 4+ or 3+ Cover Save seemed better than their 5++ in nearly every case. Am I wrong on this? Should I dump that and run 4 of them instead of 3?

Heck, dropping the Shuriken Cannon upgrades on the Serpents (15 points after upgrading the Turret weapons) and the Ghostwalk Matrices on the Walkers (30 points) gets me halfway to another War Walker WITH a Holo-Field (85 points). I could probably scrounge up the 40 points somewhere...

Thanks again for the great info and opinions!

Quick point. I would recommend not walking eldar troops if at all possible

As a dedicated transport for a troop choice in a CAD the serpents have objective secured as well

IMO 3 or 4 serpents would be enough to hold objectives in the current format

You're making the Guardians way too expensive, and the DAs as well.

Both are extremely inefficient, since just 10 Guardians get the exact same cover save and damage output at range.

It's actually better to take as little troops as possible since they just don't carry their weight.

Wave Serpent is 100% Scatter Lasers, bright lances would be foolish with the "laser lock" special rule.

That is also why 3 Wave Serpents and a Crimson Hunter will be enough anti air.

Vehicle gear on anything below 115 points is a waste of points.


In general, you want to get as many things as possible in a list, with the mandatory equipment (scatter laser on Serpents), the very recommended equipment (holofields on serpents), and that's it.

Anything else and you fall into inefficiency, that's where you end up facing an army that has 1.5 times or two times your damage output because they skipped all the near-useless stuff, like the 5++ on a DA squad, or the 11th guardian and the warlock.

For the price of your 10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch and kit, you can almost get two units of 10 Guardians, that should tell you something.

I get what you are saying; I tend to go overboard on upgrades and such. I always have, more for the "cool" factor as opposed to the "effectiveness" factor. From that second standpoint, if the Guardians are just useless throwaway troops in the first place, why not go even cheaper and get 5 DA for 65 points, just so I can pick up the Serpents? I could save 95 points per squad at that point, or 25 points over the Guardians, and still have the Serpents. At the same time, I should make sure everything is either 5 models, 9 models, or 13 models, from the standpoint of Morale checks (when you end up taking them, and if you can rally if you fail them).

To my mind, that sort of defeats the purpose of actually playing the game, modelling cool minis, painting them, and having a theme or background for the army. I'm not trying to make an old school "'Ard Boyz" list here, just one that will be competitive enough while still being fun to play and play against, and looking cool on the table or display board. We all know looking cool is half the battle!

Here is what I mentioned as another option on another board where I have a similar thread going:

HQ
Autarch - Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike (100 points)
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan (170 points)
Troops
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
10 Dire Avengers - Exarch w/PW + Shimmershield, Wave Serpent w/TL (5 point weapon of choice), Holo-Field (295 points)
Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears - Exarch w/Hit & Run (150 points)
Crimson Hunter - Exarch (180 points)
---1485 points

And then, 365 points for Heavy Support (or other upgrades/units elsewhere)...or have 455 points if I dump the Exarchs and Shimmershields (which cost 90 for 3 models, and may not be worth it). Examples:

2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields (170 points)
2 War Walkers - Scatter Lasers (2 each), Holo-Fields (170 points)
1 additional Shining Spear (25)
---1850 points

6 Fire Dragons (132), Falcon w/BL or SL, Holo-field, Spirit Stone (160)
2 additional Shining Spears (50)
23 points to spend elsewhere in the list
---1850

2 Fire Prisms or Night Spinners w/Holo-fields, Spirit Stones (300/290)
2 additional Shining Spears and/or points elsewhere (50 + 15 or 25 extra)
---1850

1 Fire Prism or Night Spinner w/Holo-field, Spirit Stone (150/140)
10 Swooping Hawks, Exarch w/Hawk's Talon, Hit & Run (195)
1 additional Shining Spear
---1850-ish (either 1845 to 1855)

365 points of a Faolchu's Blade formation of Harlequin
---1850

1 Fire Prism or Night Spinner w/Holo-field, Spirit Stone (150/140)
3 Vypers w/weapon upgrades and Holo-fields (190/200)
1 additional Shining Spear (25)
---1850

Or any combination of those models to add up to 365/455 points (or a bit less if I am playing a smaller game). It seems like the HQ, Troops, and FA I listed would be a nice, solid core to build around with the rest of the points. And then I could switch up the list with those points, or have spare models lying around for a larger game. Fiddle around with what I find effective...instead of an extra Shining Spear, for example, I could get Runes of Warding/Witnessing for the Farseer, or Runes of Witnessing and Marksman's Eye for the Crimson Hunter, or Shield of Grace on the DA Exarchs to help prevent insta-death in Challenges and keep their 5++ longer, or whatever. Plenty of ways to spend small amounts of points (Runes, a Spear, additional Exarch abilities, etc.). Flexibility. Easy to swap units in and out as required (or if something isn't allowed at an event, like Flyers).

It seems to be just enough "hardness" without being an ass-clown about it; I'm not trying to anger people. Right now I'm looking at a core of 3 Tanks with 30-36 Troops (whatever they turn out to be, DA or Guardians), a half-dozen CC Jetbikes, a Flyer, and some HQ. And then a broad spectrum of minis to add in to change up the core army...War Walkers, Grav Tanks, Harlequin, Swooping Hawks...but overall not more than 20-25 more minis regardless of the choices I wanted at the time. Overall, I'd have about 75 models total, and be able to field a bunch of different things depending on mood, Event rules, points level, or effectiveness.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, I appreciate your comments and POV. I'm just sort of trying to explain my mindset, and ask for advice on some specifics about what is or isn't useless or useful. I don't really want to have useless suicide squads of garbage troops, just so I can get arguably the best tank around. It's never been how I did things. If I went with Guardians, I'd get 11 and put a Warlock with them, even if it wasn't optimal. The Exarchs might go though...its a LOT of points for that 5++. I see that.

Alright, well have fun

Sounds like you have the right approach. The hobby comes first :-)

The fire prism/night spinner is a decent tank. Each has it's uses, not sure how you are with modelling but I would recommend magnetising the options if you go for this tank.

Then you could use whichever fit in with the themE of the day and you won't be limited to always using the same one. I also magnetised all the underslung weapons on my grav tanks.

9unit9 wrote:
Sounds like you have the right approach. The hobby comes first :-)

The fire prism/night spinner is a decent tank. Each has it's uses, not sure how you are with modelling but I would recommend magnetising the options if you go for this tank.

Then you could use whichever fit in with the themE of the day and you won't be limited to always using the same one. I also magnetised all the underslung weapons on my grav tanks.

Yes. Right now I have 5 Falcon chassis and 3 Vypers with every weapon and/or turret magnetized. I also wired them up to have LEDS in the engines. I did mess up one one bit of planning though...two of the tanks are set up for the occupant-less offset Wave Serpent turrets, and three for the regular turret. Easily solved though...I will buy one more Wave Serpent so I have the three I need, then buy three Prism and three Spinner turrets from a bits site. Done deal. Will be able to mix and match with the three Heavy Support tank choices.

So, parsing the Eldar book again, I found something I had missed earlier; the Heavy Weapons Platform for the Guardian Squads. They could always take them in the past, obviously, but now...

...they count as one model and I can put them in the same Wave Serpent?

So, I can buy 10 Guardians, a Weapons Platform with the weapon of my choice, and a Warlock, and put them all in a Wave Serpent? Or am I reading that wrong?

That will definitely make the choice between Dire Avengers and Guardians an interesting one.