AndrewGPaul wrote:
I would reply to the OP, but I'd get a warning. Suffice to say I don't agree with his premises.

 Grimskul wrote:
The Last Church definitely has issues regarding the lack of depth in its argument of secularism against religion, but I think its a bit more balanced than that near the end when Uriah sees the violence within the core of the Emperor and refuses to go with him. In the end, his concerns are vindicated with the rising of the Imperial Cult and if anything shows the Emperor pushing for the Imperial Truth more as a means to an end rather than any true ideological belief in secularism. This can be seen from how he claims he's not a god but he seems perfectly fine with others venerating him as one like with Lorgar as long as it keeps them in line. The elimination of other gods has more to do with tying any loose ends with any of them potentially being connected to the Chaos Gods in some form or being sources of dissent towards his new galactic order. I don't really see it as the writers' own biases towards religion or atheism personally, to me it looks like they want to highlight the "official" stance of the Emperor in his attempt to starve out of the Chaos Gods and how mutable it could be as long as it served the Emperor's needs. Either way, with the Imperial Cult or Imperial Truth its origin and purpose lies with bloodshed and they emphasize that in the end.

 kveldulf wrote:

Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....

 kveldulf wrote:
It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....

it's just the philosophical & theological intent of the theme that sometimes has me curious. Either the scorn for religions is put on as a charade - which is ok but the inconsistency in regards to believably is present - or they - the writers - really believe in some of the polarizing things between the lines.

Surely they know what/who the Emperor is equivalent to.

I believe the religious drive the Ecclesiarchy spurs is somewhat believable (immersion wise)

but I have a real hard time swallowing the matter of super being atheists doing noble things with no eternal promise

I can't really blame the traitors for wanting something more. After all, a nothingness after ones death for the Imperium, seems objectively boring ;P

ChazSexington wrote:And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

 kveldulf wrote:
So, after listening to the 'Last Church', my eyes rolled so fast they almost made an entire revolution.
It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

 kveldulf wrote:
Really, it makes me wonder if there isn't something somewhat subliminal here: like some writers ignoring the depth going on for the Imperial truth. It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work. I don't mean that there couldn't be some force/reason that projects its success, rather I question the current formula and how it affects the immersion.

 kveldulf wrote:
Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....”

 kveldulf wrote:
I won't dismiss the literary talent these writers have, it's just the philosophical & theological intent of the theme that sometimes has me curious. Either the scorn for religions is put on as a charade - which is ok but the inconsistency in regards to believably is present - or they - the writers - really believe in some of the polarizing things between the lines. Surely they know what/who the Emperor is equivalent to.

 oldzoggy wrote:

GW's imperial of men has the following themes:
-It is a fascist empire

-It loves reigh style art ( both pre nazi as the nazi empire)

-It uses some WOII styled tanks and infantry

- xenofobia.

Aside from that it also stole at least lot from
- Our perception of Soviet WOII warfare.
- The foundations tech priest
- The foundations Rogue traders
- Starship troopers marines
- The early tyranids from alien
- Rambo -> Marbo
- 40k races -> wfb races -> Tolkien
- Tau manga
- Vietnam jungle fighters
- Starwars two legged walkers
- Dune navigators
- Christian saints, iconography and Inquisition

So no I'm not calling 40k IoM just nazi's nor the empire Hitler.
But calling the empire of man "Nazi's in space" or comparing the Emperor to Hitler is not as far fetched as most Nazi references in popculture.

It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

kveldulf wrote:It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

Really, it makes me wonder if there isn't something somewhat subliminal here: like some writers ignoring the depth going on for the Imperial truth. It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

...

I have a real hard time swallowing the matter of super being atheists doing noble things with no eternal promise

kveldulf wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I would reply to the OP, but I'd get a warning. Suffice to say I don't agree with his premises.

I guess.... thank you for your response? I'm disappointed you are unable to convey your sentiments without being that hostile.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But the Holy Roman Empire had nothing to do with Nazism or even Fascism, it was one of the most enlightened and forward-thinking empires in the world of its time...

ChazSexington wrote:And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Except, you know, it's not. The Lectitio Divinatus was exterminated during the Heresy. The Imperial Cult grew from one of their rival organisations, the Church of the Saviour Emperor.

The Lecitio Divinatus was't even the runner up amongst the Imperial Cults - The Convocation of Light were also larger and more well-established, and is considered the only really serious rival to the Church.

 kveldulf wrote:

Here's the main gist: The Emperor is a bad dude in reality and when one uses classic apologetic phrases for the defense of the Imperial Truth, it looks.... ambiguous; as though it is making a defense for secularism in RL as well as justifying the fictitious, internal scenario.

 kveldulf wrote:
Perhaps it's just something I see consistent with secularism - that I wonder if it leads to as much militarization as 'religion' can foster. In which case, bravo to such depth but I doubt that's what is going on, or with any at all BL publications.... but perhaps I'm wrong.

“The original idea for Chaos was Bryan Ansell’s,” Priestley said.

“He wrote a Warhammer supplement called Realms of Chaos where he came up with the gods and the demons. He produced this huge hand-written manuscript where he defined all of that, and I took what he’d written and developed it as a book.”

But Priestley’s idea of Chaos differed from Ansell’s, and in 40K he sought to expand on the concept.

“Bryan’s idea of Chaos was very much derived from [science fiction and fantasy author] Michael Moorcock,” he said. “I always thought it was a little too close for comfort, it looked like we were just copying.

“But I’d always had this sense of Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I’d tried to bring elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a description of demons into a kind of force out of which came realities, a kind of literal primal chaos.

“Unless you’ve read Paradise Lost you don’t get it. The whole Horus Heresy is just a parody of the fall of Lucifer as described by Milton.”

 kveldulf wrote:

For those attempting to assert Hitler as a Christian: like someone said earlier, there is information out there that reveals his demagoguery with it. Heh, saying Hitler was a Christian is ignoring the New Testament.

 Anemone wrote:

That being said I agree with the above and, to make my personal point, the real lesson of the Last Church has always been, to me, simply that the Emperor is a hypocrite who can advance no more justification for the 'why' of his ruler ship than the tried, tested and beloved staple of all human leaders throughout history of 'I know better than the other guys'. The Emperor does do a good job as a stand in of military conqueror's throughout history. Like all the mentioned above he possesses all their foibles and guilt since one cannot wield power without accumulating guilt. Not in an unideal world at least.

More interestingly, and completely random, but it occurs to me that, if I am not mistaken, the longest extended period of time (since the Birth of Chaos) in which there was no major danger from Chaos was the Eldar Empire's ridiculously long tenure from C.M 15-30. During this time from Fluff we know the Warp was incredibly calm allowing Eldar spirits to pass through it unmolested and humans to use Warp Travel relatively safely. Not to mention from Asurmen we now know also that the Eldar never fought or even encountered Daemon incursions (though they were aware of the identities of Khorne and such but treated them as myths with no power). This is particularly interesting since the explanation for the Fall, particularly given in the Valedor and Asurmen Novels, is that when the Eldar turned to their heavy debauchery during the final years of the Empire, according to the Asurmen Novel, they forgot and ceased worshiping their deities. Indeed the latest Eldar Codex even states that their deities were impotent to stop the Eldar turning their backs on them and this is then linked to Slaanesh's birth. That would make it seem like the most successful way to quiet the Warp is simply to create your own Warp Gods and make them strong enough to keep the Warp calm. Of course this is simply my working hypothesis but, to be honest, I do find it interesting since the reign of the Eldar Empire, as described, is by far the most calm and peaceful the galaxy has been since the birth of Chaos and, well, the only difference I can find is that the Eldar had their own Gods until they began disbelieving in them and placing their own pleasure (Slaanesh) higher in priority.

But that has nothing to do with this discussion, simply another way to look at the Emperor's quest of 'starving the Chaos Gods' via the extermination of religion.

Didn't the Space Wolves practise a religion the entire time? Or did that only come into existence after the Heresy?

 kveldulf wrote:


Please don't apologize for the length, It was very well written, and had enough breath in between.

Your points are quite valid and lead me to this thought about the Emperor: you would figure after 38k years, the Emperor would have understood this predicament all too well and recognized the matter of justifying legitimate rule with an ultimate, eternal consequence of the individual; recognizing the importance of priest and king - not the exclusion of either.

For a supreme being that's been observing humanity and supposedly guiding it for eons, he isnt very wise. It runs the immersion of the setting a tad into silliness.

Heh, maybe just viewing this for what it is - for grins - is the redeeming quality, that even the Emperor can be a complete idiot. That's quite a tragedy for such potential he has, even without the Horus Heresy and the irony thereafter.