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So, after listening to the 'Last Church', my eyes rolled so fast they almost made an entire revolution.

It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

Really, it makes me wonder if there isn't something somewhat subliminal here: like some writers ignoring the depth going on for the Imperial truth. It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work. I don't mean that there couldn't be some force/reason that projects its success, rather I question the current formula and how it affects the immersion.

Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....

I won't dismiss the literary talent these writers have, it's just the philosophical & theological intent of the theme that sometimes has me curious. Either the scorn for religions is put on as a charade - which is ok but the inconsistency in regards to believably is present - or they - the writers - really believe in some of the polarizing things between the lines. Surely they know what/who the Emperor is equivalent to.


I believe the religious drive the Ecclesiarchy spurs is somewhat believable (immersion wise), but I have a real hard time swallowing the matter of super being atheists doing noble things with no eternal promise

I can't really blame the traitors for wanting something more. After all, a nothingness after ones death for the Imperium, seems objectively boring ;P

The Last Church definitely has issues regarding the lack of depth in its argument of secularism against religion, but I think its a bit more balanced than that near the end when Uriah sees the violence within the core of the Emperor and refuses to go with him. In the end, his concerns are vindicated with the rising of the Imperial Cult and if anything shows the Emperor pushing for the Imperial Truth more as a means to an end rather than any true ideological belief in secularism. This can be seen from how he claims he's not a god but he seems perfectly fine with others venerating him as one like with Lorgar as long as it keeps them in line. The elimination of other gods has more to do with tying any loose ends with any of them potentially being connected to the Chaos Gods in some form or being sources of dissent towards his new galactic order. I don't really see it as the writers' own biases towards religion or atheism personally, to me it looks like they want to highlight the "official" stance of the Emperor in his attempt to starve out of the Chaos Gods and how mutable it could be as long as it served the Emperor's needs. Either way, with the Imperial Cult or Imperial Truth its origin and purpose lies with bloodshed and they emphasize that in the end.

Empy was aware that most "gods" that humans revered all over the galaxy were Ruinous Powers in disguise, and tried to slowly deplete their power, mainly coming from their worshipers.

Plus he was kind of right. Look at how the Word Bearers fethed everything up.

I would reply to the OP, but I'd get a warning. Suffice to say I don't agree with his premises.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I would reply to the OP, but I'd get a warning. Suffice to say I don't agree with his premises.

I guess.... thank you for your response? I'm disappointed you are unable to convey your sentiments without being that hostile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
The Last Church definitely has issues regarding the lack of depth in its argument of secularism against religion, but I think its a bit more balanced than that near the end when Uriah sees the violence within the core of the Emperor and refuses to go with him. In the end, his concerns are vindicated with the rising of the Imperial Cult and if anything shows the Emperor pushing for the Imperial Truth more as a means to an end rather than any true ideological belief in secularism. This can be seen from how he claims he's not a god but he seems perfectly fine with others venerating him as one like with Lorgar as long as it keeps them in line. The elimination of other gods has more to do with tying any loose ends with any of them potentially being connected to the Chaos Gods in some form or being sources of dissent towards his new galactic order. I don't really see it as the writers' own biases towards religion or atheism personally, to me it looks like they want to highlight the "official" stance of the Emperor in his attempt to starve out of the Chaos Gods and how mutable it could be as long as it served the Emperor's needs. Either way, with the Imperial Cult or Imperial Truth its origin and purpose lies with bloodshed and they emphasize that in the end.

Indeed, the Emperors claims were weak, as was Uriahs. I wish there was more to their conversation; something a bit more than 'religions are the cause for bad things so yea, I'm right you're wrong, come with me and subjugate the galaxy'. I mean, for a ~38,000 old being at this time, you'd figure he would come up with a better argument, or a better way of pronouncing moral ambiguity - being the serpent in the garden. Maybe.... he just thought the whole golden revelation moment would do the trick - like usual.

I guess you get kinda lazy in the apologetics department when you have that much psychic potential.

The iterators' arguments aren't all that convincing, when boiled down to it, either.

And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Nope, though the massive ammount of nazi like symbols where a bit unsettling to my parents when I started this hobby years ago. Anyway I'm very fond of the last Church as it is an intresting concept on it's own without being placed in the 40k Universe. Just the worlds greatest scientist talking with the worlds last priest is an apealing concept for a short story to me. Given it's one of the few time's we actually get to see the Emperor in a relaxed enviroment and hear him speak his honest mind. I find this one of the few instances that explain how the imperium actually work.

 kveldulf wrote:

Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....

There is actually much more to this argument. The Emperors true goal is to eliminate the threat of chaos. He has realised that Chaos is a reflection of the material universe. If he was able to make mankind unbelievers then in theory the warp would calm down. Uniting Earth and removing all religions is the first step in this proccess. It stands to reason that for him it is also a usefull social experiment on how people function on planetary scale without religion as well as a way for him to prove his thesis that humanities progress is hindered by religion.
It's worth noting that the Emperors plan is huge. He plans to conquer the entire galaxy and remove religion from it in order to protect mankind from the threats without and within the warp. No one except maybe the Necrons and the old ones have tried something like this.

"hmmm," Said Big E, "All of these religions seem to be worshiping those big 3 (at the time, it would have been 3, yeah? Eldar were still strong, so no slaanesh?") blatantly evil daemons who are working against me and all of mankind. I should probably stop this." But no, I bet that it was the authors trying to push the Athiest, "Hitler" agenda even though this action would be more Stalinist, but whatever, people don't react to "Stalinist" as well as "Nazi".

Also, the stories tone would have nothing to do with it being about a conversation betwine the religion abolishing emperor and one of the last priests, now would it? and yes, the "theme" is "all religion "iz dum" but i have god powers like my kids, who all think religion "iz dum" except those 2 or 3 who saw me as a god.

You are bitching about the writers treating religion poorly in a setting where religion is, 9 times out of 10, related to universe eating super daemons. Really?
Finally, face or not, that last comment was just being an donkey-cave.

tl;dr: This is a polarizing post that seems to have little to no basis, and is probably bait.

Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

Remember, Hitler was a creatonist Christian.

 kveldulf wrote:
It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

Belief is reflected in the warp. More belief increases the power of the, generally, terrible creatures that live there. Big E set out to deprive these beings of power by reducing the amount of psychic force dedicated to these powers.

It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

Nazism wasn't anti-religious and indeed used plenty of Christian rhetoric. And this "magical setting" is all about fascism and parodying the most extreme right and left wing politics.

Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....

Ermmmm... no?

The Big E has existed for eons and has seen how the universe works (unfortunately due to plot his immense knowledge, skill, strength and power apparently desert him every time he makes a decision... but hey, that is just poor writing ).

it's just the philosophical & theological intent of the theme that sometimes has me curious. Either the scorn for religions is put on as a charade - which is ok but the inconsistency in regards to believably is present - or they - the writers - really believe in some of the polarizing things between the lines.

So different people within the setting telling different stories with different experiences have different opinions on religion and belief?

And what exactly bothers you about the treatment of fictional religions in a fictional seeting by fictional characters?

Surely they know what/who the Emperor is equivalent to.

Ah, so it is about your own fictional character in your own fictional religion? But can I guess to who you refer... perhaps Horus?

I believe the religious drive the Ecclesiarchy spurs is somewhat believable (immersion wise)

Rabid religious nutcases are unfortunately all too believable

but I have a real hard time swallowing the matter of super being atheists doing noble things with no eternal promise

So you can't understand how anyone gets out of bed in the morning and does good things without an imaginary friend telling them what to do (I can only imagine that without your own personal faith you would have killed hundreds of babies before breakfast? I know that is what I like to do!).

I can't really blame the traitors for wanting something more. After all, a nothingness after ones death for the Imperium, seems objectively boring ;P

And yet that is the reason that... erm... none of the characters (in the HH I have read; I've not read this particular book) turn traitor. Most do it for personal power, belief that the cause they are pushing is not correct, misplaced loyalty, etc...

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

I am not exactly sure since this has been pointed to several different moments in the storyline in different books. iirc (I think the earliest mention was in 2nd edition).

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

I am not exactly sure since this has been pointed to several different moments in the storyline in different books. iirc (I think the earliest mention was in 2nd edition).

It all happened in M30.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Timeline

Fall of the Eldar was about 750M30, while the first Space Marines were founded in 780M30.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M30

Nope any similarities between these two fasist regimes are total coincidence. GW never steals any ideas at all.

Now lets continue to burn all the deviants and hunt the xenos down with our noble race of super warriors.

And this


does not look anything like this



or this.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Nope any similarities between these two fasist regimes are total coincidence. GW never steals any ideas at all.

Now lets continue to burn all the deviants and hunt the xenos down with our noble race of super warriors.

And this
PICTURES

Not saying that the symbols aren't the same but 1) OPs point in even bringing up the Nazi's makes no sense in the context of his complaint, it's like blaming UPS because your GW miniatures cost a lot, and 2) ALL eagle symbols are now Nazis? I get your point, but so what? "oh no! both groups use stylized eagles in their stuff!"

Op's argumentation is a bit hard to follow. I just rsponded to the emperror ~ hitler part, gw's grim dark future does kinda have a nazi fetish

 oldzoggy wrote:
Nope any similarities between these two fasist regimes are total coincidence. GW never steals any ideas at all.

Now lets continue to burn all the deviants and hunt the xenos down with our noble race of super warriors.

And this


does not look anything like this



or this.

Because only Nazis used Eagles right?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Nope any similarities between these two fasist regimes are total coincidence. GW never steals any ideas at all.

Now lets continue to burn all the deviants and hunt the xenos down with our noble race of super warriors.

Spoiler:

And this


does not look anything like this



or this.

Because only Nazis used Eagles right?

Spoiler:

*cough*

Eagles have been used since man started drawing things on bits of cloth, skin, rock or wood to denote power and leadership/etc...

Because only Nazis used Eagles right?

Spoiler:

But the Holy Roman Empire had nothing to do with Nazism or even Fascism, it was one of the most enlightened and forward-thinking empires in the world of its time...

ChazSexington wrote:And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Except, you know, it's not. The Lectitio Divinatus was exterminated during the Heresy. The Imperial Cult grew from one of their rival organisations, the Church of the Saviour Emperor.

The Lecitio Divinatus was't even the runner up amongst the Imperial Cults - The Convocation of Light were also larger and more well-established, and is considered the only really serious rival to the Church.

Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

Slaanesh' birthing pains caused the Warp Storms during the Age of Strife, and his final birth calmed them and made the Great Crusade possible.

The gothic thing may be because, y'know, religious zeal, western culture from those who made the game, it's just 1+1.

Now, the brutalism, comunist countries loved brutalism, specially because it was dirty cheap (albeit horrible):

Have some examples:

Zagreb, Croatia


The Institute of Robotics, Russia


And the list would be extremely long.

 oldzoggy wrote:


No they are not but, that doesn't make my comparison void.
Your examples are of Rome and the greek ortodox church.

Both in the same family of the Holy German Empire. You know the empire that you could call the first Reich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich)
I am quite sure that gw took at least some inspiration on this tradition of German empires..
You could say that 40k is the hypothetical 4th Reigh, combining the best of the Nazi empire and the older christian empires.

Yeah, other than having Germans, the HRE had nothing to do with Nazis or their rise. Also the second image is the Byzantine Empire, not the Greek Orthodox and Greek Orthodox would have little to nothing to do with the HRE other than being a Christian Sect and sharing an Eagle. The Imperium of Man wouldn't be the 4th Reich, with 30k years between the 3rd one and the Rise of the IoM I'm sure there was plenty of time for a 4th. Even then being a Reich wouldn't make you a Nazi, a Reich is an Empire.

Your comparison of the IoM = Nazis is overly simplistic and ignores large obvious influences of Stalinism, general Fascism, Imperialism and general religious practices and extremism of Christendom in all of its many guises, not counting the other religions that could be folded in.

You know who else lead their wars of conquest with an eagle?

Imperial Rome.

 kveldulf wrote:
So, after listening to the 'Last Church', my eyes rolled so fast they almost made an entire revolution.
It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

That is because the emperor doesn’t really believe in his own rhetoric; he just is using this as an excuse to remove religion. His ultimate goal is to starve the chaos gods of power through cutting off the worship and souls tap.

 kveldulf wrote:
Really, it makes me wonder if there isn't something somewhat subliminal here: like some writers ignoring the depth going on for the Imperial truth. It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work. I don't mean that there couldn't be some force/reason that projects its success, rather I question the current formula and how it affects the immersion.

The problem here is you are confusing Nazism with an atheist totalitarian government. Nazism was one example of an atheist totalitarian government, but it wasn’t the first, and it wasn’t even the longest lasting or even the most brutal.

 kveldulf wrote:
Think of the theme we know of in 30k/40k: "'let's just exterminate all religions and also at the same time, tell everyone we are also not a religion and..... and this is a good idea because I have super powers. Also, my sons agree because yea, they have super powers too. Also, /insert logic but avoid it's own laws. This will convince the rest of the galaxy & cement power." Hmmm....”

This problem comes from the misunderstanding that a lot of fans have. We as omniscient third party observers can see fallacies and flaws, but we are the only beings in this drama with the complete picture, including the emperor. Many people think he is omniscient, but he isn't, and he is fallible and flawed as any mortal. If we reexamine this issue from the standpoint that the emperor is trying to starve the chaos gods, this is right in line with that thinking. Also, the emperor had very little faith in the ability of humanity to handle the truth of reality, so he “protects” them from it. This comes from the obvious dystopian tropes present that are reminiscent of Orwellian society

 kveldulf wrote:
I won't dismiss the literary talent these writers have, it's just the philosophical & theological intent of the theme that sometimes has me curious. Either the scorn for religions is put on as a charade - which is ok but the inconsistency in regards to believably is present - or they - the writers - really believe in some of the polarizing things between the lines. Surely they know what/who the Emperor is equivalent to.

You come closer to the intention of the writers here, it is a charade. And the inconsistencies come from the fact that the emperor trusted very, very few individuals with his truth, as a result when he is rendered incommunicado at the end of the heresy the primarchs and the citizenry can only carry on in a way that they think he would want. As time goes on the psychological human need to believe in something bigger than themselves, which is apparently universal to the human condition (in many atheists this manifests as a faith in the abilities and talents of humanity itself, that’s why many describe themselves as humanists) combined with the desire for power leads to the theocratic totalitarian state we know and love in 40k. a return to religion was inevitable in the 40k universe, because it is so fundamental to sentient life that all civilizations in the galaxy develop religion. It was a losing fight from the start. The emperor didn't necessarily understand that, and even if he did he wouldn't admit it. The emperor knows for a fact that there is an afterlife and souls exist and that beings that we would call gods also exist. He mandates atheism because faith gives power to his enemy. Read into that what you want, whether it be the hubris of mortals or the evils of faith, but the “imperial truth” is not the truth and that is the biggest secret and the true conflict at the heart of the HH series.

Personally I think the HH is the superstructure on which the morality tale of the Emperors hubris is told. It’s a story as old as human civilization. The entire body work pertaining to the heresy is a cautionary tale about humans playing God IMO. The Emperor is Victor Frankenstein and the galactic human empire is his large undead monster.

Your comparison of the IoM = Nazis is overly simplistic and ignores large obvious influences of Stalinism, general Fascism, Imperialism and general religious practices and extremism of Christendom in all of its many guises, not counting the other religions that could be folded in.

Jup that would be an over simplification, my point was never that the 40k Empire of man was just only nazism.
It would also be an insult to the rest of the great writers of themes GW stole.

But lets face it.

GW's imperial of men has the following themes:
-It is a fascist empire
-It loves reigh style art ( both pre nazi as the nazi empire)
-It uses some WOII styled tanks and infantry
- xenofobia.

Aside from that it also stole at least lot from
- Our perception of Soviet WOII warfare.
- The foundations tech priest
- The foundations Rogue traders
- Starship troopers marines
- The early tyranids from alien
- Rambo -> Marbo
- 40k races -> wfb races -> Tolkien
- Tau manga
- Vietnam jungle fighters
- Starwars two legged walkers
- Dune navigators
- Christian saints, iconography and Inquisition

So no I'm not calling 40k IoM just nazi's nor the empire Hitler.
But calling the empire of man "Nazi's in space" or comparing the Emperor to Hitler is not as far fetched as most Nazi references in popculture.

Might be a retcon but the Lecitio Divinitatus does seem to have survived the heresy

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

Back in the beginning, 40k was supposed to be ironic in it's reflections upon us. That was the whole point of grimdark.

Nazism wasn't anti-religious and indeed used plenty of Christian rhetoric. And this "magical setting" is all about fascism and parodying the most extreme right and left wing politics.

Actually, while they made official statements supporting christianity, in practice religion was a rival they wanted to eventually stamp out. Many of hitlers top lieutenants were openly anti-religious, and while hitler paid lip service to the chirch for propoganda reasons, they took some actions to try and dismantle organized religions, though being christian did not make you a target of persecution like certain other religions did. There's actually quite a bit of scholarly debate on the subject.