Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Might be a retcon but the Lecitio Divinitatus does seem to have survived the heresy

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

That's fan speculation. Not a single direct reference in it, just a bibliography designed to look reliable.

According to this properly referenced article on the more reliable wiki, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was founded on Terra, not with the Expeditionary Fleets at all.

 DarkLink wrote:
Actually, while they made official statements supporting christianity, in practice religion was a rival they wanted to eventually stamp out. Many of hitlers top lieutenants were openly anti-religious, and while hitler paid lip service to the chirch for propoganda reasons, they took some actions to try and dismantle organized religions, though being christian did not make you a target of persecution like certain other religions did. There's actually quite a bit of scholarly debate on the subject.

Rather, Catholocism was targeted. Given that over 90% of the German population was some species of Christian and about 98% of the population were some species of religion/beiever, the Nazi party would have faced one hell of a battle to eliminate religion. Indeed, they did on the occasions when they tried to curtail Christian institutions. The overall religious goal of the Nazi party appeared to be some kind of modified Protestant supportive of the greater German people and "progressive" Germanic Ideal, free of the "Jewish origins" of Christianity.

 oldzoggy wrote:

GW's imperial of men has the following themes:
-It is a fascist empire

Well yeah, most empires are.

-It loves reigh style art ( both pre nazi as the nazi empire)

Gothic art is hardly limited to a Reich, it was an art movement, and emulated through out Western Europe.

-It uses some WOII styled tanks and infantry

It has next to no WWII inspired Tanks, them instead seeming to be based on the Tank from Indiana Jones and various WWI vehicles. The Infantry are taken from a wide variety of Wars and only the Steel Legion are directly inspired by the Germans.

- xenofobia.

Its a common human trait to be xenophobic

Aside from that it also stole at least lot from
- Our perception of Soviet WOII warfare.
- The foundations tech priest
- The foundations Rogue traders
- Starship troopers marines
- The early tyranids from alien
- Rambo -> Marbo
- 40k races -> wfb races -> Tolkien
- Tau manga
- Vietnam jungle fighters
- Starwars two legged walkers
- Dune navigators
- Christian saints, iconography and Inquisition

So no I'm not calling 40k IoM just nazi's nor the empire Hitler.
But calling the empire of man "Nazi's in space" or comparing the Emperor to Hitler is not as far fetched as most Nazi references in popculture.

The entirety of what has been stolen by 40k isn't really the subject matter, the subject is The Emperor is Hitler and by Extension the Imperium are Nazis. You can't say you aren't trying to draw comparisons and say that they are Nazis, because that is in your opening post.

It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

The Emperor, in regards to Religion, would not be like Hitler. Hitler was a man that believed in God and worked with Christendom, noteably the Catholics who assisted in Nazi's fleeing. He didn't try to destroy all of them, only groups he personally didn't like. The Emperor eliminates all Religion, and beyond his initial bargain with the Chaos Gods whom he turned against, is unwilling to work with any Religion even spurning his own son for believing he was a god. He's trying to remove forces that historically have taken and abused their power for their own gain, again Catholics and the Crusades beyond the First also modern Christian Superchurches that are more in it for the money. They represent how easily faith can be twisted and people used. Ironicly he uses that same easily twisted mind set to generate loyalty to himself and his cause, this time like Hilter, Mussolini, Ho Chi Men and most importantly Julius Caeser who took power through, in part public support. Blind faith, through the many ages of history the Emperor as viewed has been bad, Crusades (Jihads), persicution, destruction of knowledge (though there was a good deal of preservation), corruption.

If you want to draw a comparison to Hitler working with the Catholics and The Emperor working with the Cult Mechanicus a point could be made there I suppose. In the grand scheme of things that allowance of religion in turn was bad as Horus was impart able to use that to swing the Dark Mech to his cause.

Hitler only worked to appease the Catholics for power. It was a political lie to gain followers within the conservative right. The centre right were previously concerned about his lack of Christianity, until Hitler gave a pro-catholic speech.

Hitler was a member of the Thule Society, for crying out loud. He was part of the reason for the founding of Germanic Neo-Paganism as a serious religion.

He was most certainly not a Christian. He actively worked to destroy Christianity (that cursed Jewish offshoot) and impose his neopagan faith - half of it cobbled together out of the Wagnerian opera he believed he was a hero in the mould of.

He had a falling out with the Thule Society though - his cult was more focussed on the worship of him and his aryan ideal than it was the old gods that Thule wanted to revive.

He certainly grew Anti-Christian, but he started out as one and continued as one for a while.

You can't say you aren't trying to draw comparisons and say that they are Nazis, because that is in your opening post.

I can, I will and you can't stop me

Not even with your strict historic views. To skool you in logic comparing and pointing out the similarities isn't the same as calling that they are the same.
It isn't far fetched at all to compare them and I find it highly likely that GW stole a lot from the nazi's like they stole a lot from all he other sources.
Inserting space nazi's is just the simplest way to add a some extra grimm darkness in your grim dark setting.
Sure 40k IoM is not historical correct but that is not the point of it, nor is discussing Hitlers religious views.

The point is that GW added some space nazi's in their mix no one can deny that.
Is that bad na not at all, unless you are transporting your toy army in one of those older GW transport cases in a sensitive neighborhood.

But being inspired by Nazis, amongst other things doesn't make it synonymous.

Also,Furyou Miko I left out, Hitler according to some sources is noted to have been against Himmler's Neo-Paganism, believing it to work against what they were trying to accomplish.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
But being inspired by Nazis, amongst other things doesn't make it synonymous.

Also,Furyou Miko I left out, Hitler according to some sources is noted to have been against Himmler's Neo-Paganism, believing it to work against what they were trying to accomplish.

Like I said, he had a falling out with them because they wanted more faithful neo-paganism, and Hitler wanted Hitlerised neo-paganism, with Hitler as Siffrid.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

Slaanesh' birthing pains caused the Warp Storms during the Age of Strife, and his final birth calmed them and made the Great Crusade possible.

Slaanesh was "born" with the fall of the Eldar. The Emperor started his conquest of Terra, and then the galaxy, immediately after. He'd almost certainly been planning it for some time. However, because of how time works in the Warp (it doesn't), Slaanesh actually still existed before he/she was "born" (though the birth did bring the Eye of Terror into existence, and made Slaanesh the most powerful god for a while.)

As far as the OP:
If "The Last Church" was really trying to make a case for atheism, it didn't do it very well. As other people have pointed out, the Emperor is portrayed as a hypocrite, and anyone who knows the backstory of 40k knows that his plan is going to go horribly, horribly wrong. On the other hand, Uriah's arguments for faith are presented rather poorly. The fact that his own faith is based on a supposed miracle he witnessed rather than some deeper reason is a big part of that. The writer may not be a man of faith himself, so maybe he found arguing from that point of view difficult, but I don't think the story was intended as a: "take that, religious people!" either. It's supposed to present both sides evenly, with flaws. But the real strength of the story is that it gives an early view of the cracks in the Emperor's big golden armour, that are going to lead to his downfall. That it's a humble priest who draws attention to those flaws, gives the story a very human appeal.

As for the "Emperor is Hitler," he's really more of an amalgamation of every great conqueror in history. Sure, there's a little Hitler, but there's also plenty of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Peter the Great, and even people like Mohammad.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
But being inspired by Nazis, amongst other things doesn't make it synonymous.

Also,Furyou Miko I left out, Hitler according to some sources is noted to have been against Himmler's Neo-Paganism, believing it to work against what they were trying to accomplish.

Like I said, he had a falling out with them because they wanted more faithful neo-paganism, and Hitler wanted Hitlerised neo-paganism, with Hitler as Siffrid.

Hitler wanted no Neo-Paganism, as it was a regression.

If "The Last Church" was really trying to make a case for atheism, it didn't do it very well. As other people have pointed out, the Emperor is portrayed as a hypocrite, and anyone who knows the backstory of 40k knows that his plan is going to go horribly, horribly wrong. On the other hand, Uriah's arguments for faith are presented rather poorly. The fact that his own faith is based on a supposed miracle he witnessed rather than some deeper reason is a big part of that. The writer may not be a man of faith himself, so maybe he found arguing from that point of view difficult, but I don't think the story was intended as a: "take that, religious people!" either. It's supposed to present both sides evenly, with flaws. But the real strength of the story is that it gives an early view of the cracks in the Emperor's big golden armour, that are going to lead to his downfall. That it's a humble priest who draws attention to those flaws, gives the story a very human appeal.

As for the "Emperor is Hitler," he's really more of an amalgamation of every great conqueror in history. Sure, there's a little Hitler, but there's also plenty of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Peter the Great, and even people like Mohammad.

Yeah this sounds pretty accurate to me. We really can't expect high-level philosophical dissertations from GW's writing staff (they just aren't that) so obviously when trying to sound fancy about a topic as expansive and frequently analysed as Religion and Atheism if you know even a little bit about real world academic discussions concerning these topics both Uriah and the Emperor come across as very unimpressive in their discourse and their reasoning.

That being said I agree with the above and, to make my personal point, the real lesson of the Last Church has always been, to me, simply that the Emperor is a hypocrite who can advance no more justification for the 'why' of his ruler ship than the tried, tested and beloved staple of all human leaders throughout history of 'I know better than the other guys'. The Emperor does do a good job as a stand in of military conqueror's throughout history. Like all the mentioned above he possesses all their foibles and guilt since one cannot wield power without accumulating guilt. Not in an unideal world at least.

More interestingly, and completely random, but it occurs to me that, if I am not mistaken, the longest extended period of time (since the Birth of Chaos) in which there was no major danger from Chaos was the Eldar Empire's ridiculously long tenure from C.M 15-30. During this time from Fluff we know the Warp was incredibly calm allowing Eldar spirits to pass through it unmolested and humans to use Warp Travel relatively safely. Not to mention from Asurmen we now know also that the Eldar never fought or even encountered Daemon incursions (though they were aware of the identities of Khorne and such but treated them as myths with no power). This is particularly interesting since the explanation for the Fall, particularly given in the Valedor and Asurmen Novels, is that when the Eldar turned to their heavy debauchery during the final years of the Empire, according to the Asurmen Novel, they forgot and ceased worshiping their deities. Indeed the latest Eldar Codex even states that their deities were impotent to stop the Eldar turning their backs on them and this is then linked to Slaanesh's birth. That would make it seem like the most successful way to quiet the Warp is simply to create your own Warp Gods and make them strong enough to keep the Warp calm. Of course this is simply my working hypothesis but, to be honest, I do find it interesting since the reign of the Eldar Empire, as described, is by far the most calm and peaceful the galaxy has been since the birth of Chaos and, well, the only difference I can find is that the Eldar had their own Gods until they began disbelieving in them and placing their own pleasure (Slaanesh) higher in priority.

But that has nothing to do with this discussion, simply another way to look at the Emperor's quest of 'starving the Chaos Gods' via the extermination of religion.

Didn't the Space Wolves practise a religion the entire time? Or did that only come into existence after the Heresy?

Wait, what? The Imperium is Fascist? Since when? It's always been a religiously-bound hegemony of aristocratic worlds with Holy Terra at its center with a ruling council of Elders (High Lords). Its specifically cited as having insane diversity in government types - from primitive tribal dictators to complex Republics to oppressive, totalitarian regimes, and everything in between. (however, this article, unfortunately, lacks citations, so here's two more links to lend further credence to my statement - heck, have a third, on me ).

The thing with the Imperium is, to discuss it more appropriately, we have to use language more precisely. Because of its nature, as pointed out above, it has many components within it that are allowed a large leeway in how they operate so long as they meet certain base requirements (and even then the inefficiency of the Imperium's administration means that numerous nominal states do not even meet these requirements and, when rediscovered, are annihilated for this deficiency). As a result its probably best to refer to a difference between the centralized government of the 'Imperium' and the local governments of planets.

That being said most Empires; British, Mongolian, Russian and such had numerous components, state-actors and entities which ran themselves with differing governmental and societal structures to their centralized or dominant authority. That being said, in discourse, we still do discuss these groups as having governmental styles. This is because its usually taken that what's being referred to is the centralized authority's official government. Thus, as was also earlier pointed out in this thread, we can still refer to the governmental style of the Imperium we must just do so also with the knowledge that said description does not necessarily describe all members or components. This is the case when describing any major Empire really.

kveldulf wrote:It was as if that story, among many HH books as well, are bleeding over too much of the repressed feelings toward 'religion' and thus convincing its' removal a legitimate idea.

Really, it makes me wonder if there isn't something somewhat subliminal here: like some writers ignoring the depth going on for the Imperial truth. It's like Nazism is getting shoe horned in to magically work.

...

I have a real hard time swallowing the matter of super being atheists doing noble things with no eternal promise

kveldulf wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I would reply to the OP, but I'd get a warning. Suffice to say I don't agree with his premises.

I guess.... thank you for your response? I'm disappointed you are unable to convey your sentiments without being that hostile.

Hostile? Why would I be; I have no idea who you are. I just found the two statements quoted above - that atheism is equivalent to Naziism and that atheists can't be altruistic - to be simply wrong. Since discussion of politics and religion should be restricted to the Off-Topic forum, I suspect I'm edging close to, if not breaking, the rules by posting this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, I'm sure that the original authors did draw from Naziism - and fascism, communism, Stalinism, Maosim, and any number of horrendous regimes in history. One of the important themes of 40k is that the future isn't a progressive utopia. It's a violent, repressive, backward hellhole, that draws on all the worst examples of humanity in history - because any alternative is worse. That's the horror of 40k, moreso than simply having lots of tentacle demons rending your flesh.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." as H.G. Wells wrote. Without the reprieve implied in that book's epilogue.

I admit, I could have organized my thoughts a bit better, but my argument is multifaceted. I was attempting to make a few connections as to the 'why' - and speculating at it.

Here's the main gist: The Emperor is a bad dude in reality and when one uses classic apologetic phrases for the defense of the Imperial Truth, it looks.... ambiguous; as though it is making a defense for secularism in RL as well as justifying the fictitious, internal scenario.

Perhaps it's just something I see consistent with secularism too - that it leads to as much militarization as 'religion' can foster. In which case, bravo to such depth but I doubt that's what is going on, or with any at all BL publications.... but perhaps I'm wrong.

Within the fiction, the Emp is definitely a character, with an almost idiot savant view of the universe but scant source material about him as a person. I just wish there was more depth during this rare opportunity within the Last Church (in the theological part of the conversations). I too really liked the idea of the book for it's creativity with setting the prophetical innuendos; heh the Bell/clock at the end was a very clever slapping/tolling effect of irony.


For those attempting to assert Hitler as a Christian: like someone said earlier, there is information out there that reveals his demagoguery with it. Heh, saying Hitler was a Christian is ignoring the New Testament. By Hitlers own actions, and most of his own ideas, were most consistent with atheistic secularism.

Meh, either way, I do enjoy 30k/40k for the crazy dystopia for what it is - that like someone said earlier - reflects nuances in real history with unrestrained twists and it's charming for that.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But the Holy Roman Empire had nothing to do with Nazism or even Fascism, it was one of the most enlightened and forward-thinking empires in the world of its time...

ChazSexington wrote:And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Except, you know, it's not. The Lectitio Divinatus was exterminated during the Heresy. The Imperial Cult grew from one of their rival organisations, the Church of the Saviour Emperor.

The Lecitio Divinatus was't even the runner up amongst the Imperial Cults - The Convocation of Light were also larger and more well-established, and is considered the only really serious rival to the Church.

Ah, yeah, I think you're right. I always thought it was descended from the Lectitio

Lexicanum mentions that Church of the Saviour Emperor was inspired by the Lectitio Divinatus, source being Horus Rising, though that does strike me as odd since those events are prior to the Church of the Saviour Emperor, so I stand corrected I believe!

Regardless, it is ironic that he in the end became venerated as a god

 kveldulf wrote:

Here's the main gist: The Emperor is a bad dude in reality and when one uses classic apologetic phrases for the defense of the Imperial Truth, it looks.... ambiguous; as though it is making a defense for secularism in RL as well as justifying the fictitious, internal scenario.

He knows what happens when you worship Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch though. Sure, ends justify the means and all that. There is no real world parallel.

 kveldulf wrote:
Perhaps it's just something I see consistent with secularism - that I wonder if it leads to as much militarization as 'religion' can foster. In which case, bravo to such depth but I doubt that's what is going on, or with any at all BL publications.... but perhaps I'm wrong.

The whole Horus Heresy is based on Paradise Lost. [urp=http://unpluggedgames.co.uk/features/blood-dice-and-darkness-how-warhammer-defined-gaming-for-a-generation/]Here's Rick Priestly on it:[/url]

“The original idea for Chaos was Bryan Ansell’s,” Priestley said.

“He wrote a Warhammer supplement called Realms of Chaos where he came up with the gods and the demons. He produced this huge hand-written manuscript where he defined all of that, and I took what he’d written and developed it as a book.”

But Priestley’s idea of Chaos differed from Ansell’s, and in 40K he sought to expand on the concept.

“Bryan’s idea of Chaos was very much derived from [science fiction and fantasy author] Michael Moorcock,” he said. “I always thought it was a little too close for comfort, it looked like we were just copying.

“But I’d always had this sense of Chaos existing as described in Paradise Lost. I’d tried to bring elements of that into the background and gradually change it from a description of demons into a kind of force out of which came realities, a kind of literal primal chaos.

“Unless you’ve read Paradise Lost you don’t get it. The whole Horus Heresy is just a parody of the fall of Lucifer as described by Milton.”

 kveldulf wrote:

For those attempting to assert Hitler as a Christian: like someone said earlier, there is information out there that reveals his demagoguery with it. Heh, saying Hitler was a Christian is ignoring the New Testament.

Which Christians surely have never done. Anyone can claim they're Christians, even north-German sects

Though I'm not going to get into the real-life religion topic in a wh40k thread

 ChazSexington wrote:


Which Christians surely have never done. Anyone can claim they're Christians, even north-German sects

Though I'm not going to get into the real-life religion topic in a wh40k thread

Aye.

Anyone can claim to be X, but whether they really are is a matter of comparison - to the definition/doctrine of that world view.

The fun thing about religion is it isn't fair to judge by its abuse

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But the Holy Roman Empire had nothing to do with Nazism or even Fascism, it was one of the most enlightened and forward-thinking empires in the world of its time...

ChazSexington wrote:And ironically how the Imperial Cult is based on a book Lorgar wrote.

Except, you know, it's not. The Lectitio Divinatus was exterminated during the Heresy. The Imperial Cult grew from one of their rival organisations, the Church of the Saviour Emperor.

The Lecitio Divinatus was't even the runner up amongst the Imperial Cults - The Convocation of Light were also larger and more well-established, and is considered the only really serious rival to the Church.

Brennonjw wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Brennon, I believe Slaanesh was already around.

Thanks! I wasn't sure exactly what era the Eldar fell and Slaanesh was born, and when this took place.

Slaanesh' birthing pains caused the Warp Storms during the Age of Strife, and his final birth calmed them and made the Great Crusade possible.

This right here.

People tend to forger that not only was Frederick II, Holy Emperor of the Romans completely accepting of people of other faiths, including muslims, he even fought a bloodless crusade (the one and only) by simply sitting down and negotiating with the Muslims in Outremer for the return of Jerusalem to Christendom with the caveat of Muslims still being allowed to enter. Then when entering Jerusalem, yelled at the Muslims for not conducting their prayer bells and cries during the morning out of respect for his Christian sensibilities, because he did not come all the way to Jerusalem to not experience its culture. He then later went on in life to build one of the first universities dedicated to literature that would go on to forge the modern Italian language, and write one of, if not the earliest book on Ornithology.

On top of this Holy Roman Emperors had a reputation for being excommunicated all the bloody time because they routinely told the Popes to go take their zealotry and shove it up the hat.

 Anemone wrote:

That being said I agree with the above and, to make my personal point, the real lesson of the Last Church has always been, to me, simply that the Emperor is a hypocrite who can advance no more justification for the 'why' of his ruler ship than the tried, tested and beloved staple of all human leaders throughout history of 'I know better than the other guys'. The Emperor does do a good job as a stand in of military conqueror's throughout history. Like all the mentioned above he possesses all their foibles and guilt since one cannot wield power without accumulating guilt. Not in an unideal world at least.

Yes! Absolutely. The interesting thing is that the Emperor can claim to actually BE better than the other guys in many ways (he's more physically and psychically powerful, he has millenia of experience and knowledge, he's functionally immortal), but he still has all the human flaws that are going to destroy him (hubris, pride, arrogance, lack of compassion, etc.). But doesn't that sum up every other great conqueror too? Sure, they're not immortal, but in many ways they WERE the better than those around them- more driven, smarter, more resourceful, and yes, sometimes just luckier.

More interestingly, and completely random, but it occurs to me that, if I am not mistaken, the longest extended period of time (since the Birth of Chaos) in which there was no major danger from Chaos was the Eldar Empire's ridiculously long tenure from C.M 15-30. During this time from Fluff we know the Warp was incredibly calm allowing Eldar spirits to pass through it unmolested and humans to use Warp Travel relatively safely. Not to mention from Asurmen we now know also that the Eldar never fought or even encountered Daemon incursions (though they were aware of the identities of Khorne and such but treated them as myths with no power). This is particularly interesting since the explanation for the Fall, particularly given in the Valedor and Asurmen Novels, is that when the Eldar turned to their heavy debauchery during the final years of the Empire, according to the Asurmen Novel, they forgot and ceased worshiping their deities. Indeed the latest Eldar Codex even states that their deities were impotent to stop the Eldar turning their backs on them and this is then linked to Slaanesh's birth. That would make it seem like the most successful way to quiet the Warp is simply to create your own Warp Gods and make them strong enough to keep the Warp calm. Of course this is simply my working hypothesis but, to be honest, I do find it interesting since the reign of the Eldar Empire, as described, is by far the most calm and peaceful the galaxy has been since the birth of Chaos and, well, the only difference I can find is that the Eldar had their own Gods until they began disbelieving in them and placing their own pleasure (Slaanesh) higher in priority.

But that has nothing to do with this discussion, simply another way to look at the Emperor's quest of 'starving the Chaos Gods' via the extermination of religion.

Didn't the Space Wolves practise a religion the entire time? Or did that only come into existence after the Heresy?

Hm. I've never really thought of this before, but it makes sense. Basically, the Eldar Gods served as "gods of order" who kept the Chaos Gods from getting out of hand, because their worshipers had gotten so powerful that the Eldar Gods could actually keep the Chaos Gods under control, if not permanently destroy them. Of course, the Eldar Gods developed and gained power while the Eldar were struggling to the top of the pecking order, and once the struggle stopped, they kinda didn't need them anymore. Kaine is a bloody pain to have around when you're so all dominating that you don't need war (stars living and dying by your command, it ain't hard to wipe out threats before they really threaten). Asuryan is a stick in the mud.

Ergo they were weakened to almost nothing and the Eldar gave birth to a knew god that reflected their new "masters of the galaxy" mindset better...
Who in turn wreaked so much havoc, caused so much despair, desperation, etc, by running amok, that the other big three had a massive resurgence as well.
And hey, maybe the Emperor's Great Crusade contributed to that as well. There were many people, human and alien, who were on the receiving end of the Crusade and found all the "progress" less than thrilling.

It's a story written for 12-14 year olds. It is not a collegiate thesis on religion, atheism, or the rise of empires.

So-called "Gothic" architecture pre-dates Naziism by several centuries, so it is both disingenuous and laughably incorrect to call the art style of 40k "Nazi inspired". It's a pan-European style that flourished in the late medieval period and would be replaced by the Renaissance.

All totalitarian regimes share many things in common, regardless of whether they are right-wing (Fascists) or left-wing (Socialists). This, then, is the Imperium: a totalitarian, utilitarian regime supported by a strong, central church and a massive military-industrial complex. Like all totalitarian regimes, it is supported by turning the attention of the people, through propaganda, against "the outsiders". Only, in 40k, those outsiders actually exist and actually want to kill all of humanity, so they aren't wrong in doing so.

Also, in 40k, "the Devil" is real, he comes in 4 major flavors, and he has a limitless supply of demons and devils to send against those who waver in their faith, so you better go to church and you better pray hard and frequently.

It's also a bit of a ret-con to the 40k story, since presenting the Emperor as uber-atheist is a relatively new thing in the setting. Martin Luther, he ain't. Nor is he Richard Dawkins (who is terrible). He was, previously, just "The Emperor", a psyker so powerful he was god-like in ability and people just started worshipping him as one. Him, being the pragmatic sort, realized that this gave his psychic abilities rather a boost, so he went with it.

Then we have a retelling of the Biblical War in Heaven, only this time Lucifer actually gets a really good hit in against God, and we end up with the setting that is M40.

All of this is why the HH series should have never been written. It is attempting to explain the "creation myths" of 40k, and it cannot help but end up terrible for attempting to do so. It is a story we already know the ending to, and the twists of plots and characters that should remain mysterious, legendary and mythological are now being turned into regular human beings (Space Marines or otherwise), and the plot often requires certain characters to be monumentally stupid, wherein the myths of these events did not.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a story written for 12-14 year olds. It is not a collegiate thesis on religion, atheism, or the rise of empires.

So-called "Gothic" architecture pre-dates Naziism by several centuries, so it is both disingenuous and laughably incorrect to call the art style of 40k "Nazi inspired". It's a pan-European style that flourished in the late medieval period and would be replaced by the Renaissance.

All totalitarian regimes share many things in common, regardless of whether they are right-wing (Fascists) or left-wing (Socialists). This, then, is the Imperium: a totalitarian, utilitarian regime supported by a strong, central church and a massive military-industrial complex. Like all totalitarian regimes, it is supported by turning the attention of the people, through propaganda, against "the outsiders". Only, in 40k, those outsiders actually exist and actually want to kill all of humanity, so they aren't wrong in doing so.

Also, in 40k, "the Devil" is real, he comes in 4 major flavors, and he has a limitless supply of demons and devils to send against those who waver in their faith, so you better go to church and you better pray hard and frequently.

It's also a bit of a ret-con to the 40k story, since presenting the Emperor as uber-atheist is a relatively new thing in the setting. Martin Luther, he ain't. Nor is he Richard Dawkins (who is terrible). He was, previously, just "The Emperor", a psyker so powerful he was god-like in ability and people just started worshipping him as one. Him, being the pragmatic sort, realized that this gave his psychic abilities rather a boost, so he went with it.

Then we have a retelling of the Biblical War in Heaven, only this time Lucifer actually gets a really good hit in against God, and we end up with the setting that is M40.

All of this is why the HH series should have never been written. It is attempting to explain the "creation myths" of 40k, and it cannot help but end up terrible for attempting to do so. It is a story we already know the ending to, and the twists of plots and characters that should remain mysterious, legendary and mythological are now being turned into regular human beings (Space Marines or otherwise), and the plot often requires certain characters to be monumentally stupid, wherein the myths of these events did not.

Eh, I don't think the Horus Heresy books are written for even the above average 12-14 year old. I don't expect some thesis, but I do expect more consistency from college educated writers - at least in regards to properly capturing the reasons for the emperor/primarchs chosen paths - whether primal or sophisticated, and those be consistent within those paths.

Though, in part I can't blame the writers, as it is probably more a mere reflection of bad education - when it comes to portraying philosophy and the associated impact.

I don't care for a wordy depiction of these things, but rather at least the writers having these underling fundamentals nailed consistently within the genre.

***

I'm not sure if you're referencing to something I said about Nazism or someone else, but I wasn't equating it to a matter of architecture or the inspirations that party/ideology drew from; i was pointing to the ideology and the popular figure associated to it.

Furthermore, I would beg you to reconsider the misnomer of pitting fascism as right leaning. If anything, it would be more apt to refrain from using that dichotomy, even if is a quick way to convey your feelings.
It's perpetuating the fallacy of humanity (collective thinking) defining the things ultimately among themselves, rather than the more appropriate nature of approaching the subject - the matter of things derived to be self-evident (thus immediately contractual) and the things less apparent.

Just my .02 cents

***

I agree with everything else you said, particularly the bit about them muting the mystical nature of the creation story by explaining it. It seems that some things in fiction just isn't sacred - to leave alone. I wish more movies/books would just leave the elephant unexplained at times so the evocative nature of it remains. Though, I do mostly enjoy the Horus Heresy - the books and the general idea of it - for now.

 kveldulf wrote:


Eh, I don't think the Horus Heresy books are written for even the above average 12-14 year old - in general. I don't expect some thesis, but I do expect more consistency from college educated writers - at least in regards to properly capturing the reasons for the emperor/primarchs chosen paths - whether primal or sophisticated, and those be consistent within those paths.

Though, in part I can't blame the writers, as it is probably more a mere reflection of bad education - when it comes to portraying philosophy and the associated impact.

I don't care for a wordy depiction of these things, but rather at least the writers having these underling fundamentals nailed consistently within the genre.

College hasn't got anything to do with it. It's pulp; it's meant to entertain, not to be a new On Duties. Seriously, the only reason they write such-long winded books at all is Tolkien wrote a long book (albeit with a lot more content per word) which is what everyone aspires to, resulting in a vomit splurge of adjectives on every page that it ends up reading like a childlike version of Hamsun. This is why their short stories tend to be much better as they're restrained by word count. That the fluff is based on ret-cons and the works of several authors doesn't help with consistency either. Look at any fantasy RPG setting and it has the exact same issues.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:


Eh, I don't think the Horus Heresy books are written for even the above average 12-14 year old - in general. I don't expect some thesis, but I do expect more consistency from college educated writers - at least in regards to properly capturing the reasons for the emperor/primarchs chosen paths - whether primal or sophisticated, and those be consistent within those paths.

Though, in part I can't blame the writers, as it is probably more a mere reflection of bad education - when it comes to portraying philosophy and the associated impact.

I don't care for a wordy depiction of these things, but rather at least the writers having these underling fundamentals nailed consistently within the genre.

College hasn't got anything to do with it. It's pulp; it's meant to entertain, not to be a new On Duties. Seriously, the only reason they write such-long winded books at all is Tolkien wrote a long book (albeit with a lot more content per word) which is what everyone aspires to, resulting in a vomit splurge of adjectives on every page that it ends up reading like a childlike version of Hamsun. This is why their short stories tend to be much better as they're restrained by word count. That the fluff is based on ret-cons and the works of several authors doesn't help with consistency either. Look at any fantasy RPG setting and it has the exact same issues.

I agree, that the matter of college may not have anything literally to do with things but I do think the reflection of 'poor pulp' may have some connection to the matter of their education - college or not.

Granted people like to see the vomit of kewl words for the spectacle of it in these sort of genres, but one should consider, that depth is always a factor, especially when reasoning is conveyed in a dialogue. Some fiction is obviously meant to be less serious, but even then, a stupid, severe lack of substance can still kill the mood.

As far as their short stories tending to be better... I guess I agree and disagree.

Furthermore, I would beg you to reconsider the misnomer of pitting fascism as right leaning. If anything, it would be more apt to refrain from using that dichotomy, even if is a quick way to convey your feelings.

Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Right-Wing: Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social stratification or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically defending this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition.[4][5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences[10] and/or from competition in market economies.[11][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

So what is it you are trying to say?

Let me throw out a religious perspective as a counter to the common a-theistic (hyphenation intended) interpretation of the failures of the Imperial Truth and the Emperor himself.

You could make a fair point that the Emperor failed to recognize the need for faith- the need to believe- in his own human followers. Basically, denying an essential part of human nature was the hubris that led to the Emperor's fall. Being somewhat inhuman himself, it was a natural mistake for the Emperor to make.

The Emperor, like most despots, tried to include religion-like ritual and pageantry in the body of his secular state. Like many historical ultranationalists, the recognized the need for ritual, but attempted to replace religious faith with logical, militantly secular Imperial Truth. Unfortunately, the Imperial Truth offers no hope for the hereafter. It is cold, logical and sterile, offering no hope against the cold realities of practical human existence. Even in the Emperor's day it offers nothing but duty and knowing one's place in the Order of Things. It is the ultimate totalitarian state, backed up by genocide.

Despite the best efforts of the Soviet Communist Party and the SS (which had an entire office responsible for suppressing religion) organized religion continued to survive and even flourish underground. Today in the People's Republic of China, sporadic suppression of religion and demi-religious movements hasn't prevented the growth of Christianity (among others). In the end, people simply need Something Greater to believe

In the end, historic human attempts to replace religion with The State have all ultimately failed (Naziism, Soviet Communism, etc.). People want and need to believe in something more powerful than logic, something they can hold up as an exemplar as well as put their faith in. During his lifetime the Emperor himself could plausibly fill that role. With his death as a martyr he had no choice.

The Emperor's attempts to suppress faith led directly to the chastisement of the Word Bearers and their subsequent fall, dragging half of the Imperial armed forces with them. The Last Church foreshadowed the Horus Heresy itself, the destruction of a dream and much that was noble and beautiful in a storm of fire and blood. All because the Emperor thought his Imperial Truth could replace faith and divinity in the hearts of men.

From this perspective the rise of the Ecclesiarchy was an almost inevitable event. Within a few generations the Imperial Truth was cast aside in favor of a plethora of faiths, all built on the martyrdom of the Emperor. It was a backlash against the suppression of something essential and very human - the desire to Believe - at the hands of the Imperial Truth.

That the atheistic Imperial Truth was replaced by something that made exactly the same demands on the people is a direct outgrowth of the Imperial Truth itself.

Basing dogma on the Emperor's own philosophy, the many Emperor-cults demanded much in terms of sacrifice and duty, yet offered little in the way of hope and kindness and justice. They were very definitely children of the Imperial Truth yet they would not accept the Emperor's denial of divinity. How could they if they were to believe in him?

It's interesting to note that the Confederation of Light was the last major contender against what would become the Ecclesiarchy, and that it significantly departed from the Imperial Truth in both dogma and practices. The IOM would probably be very different had the Confederation become the dominant faith.

But I digress. I just wanted to offer a different, religion-based interpretation of events in the 40k universe.

Sorry for the wall of text. It's sorta what I do, alas.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
Let me throw out a religious perspective as a counter to the common a-theistic (hyphenation intended) interpretation of the failures of the Imperial Truth and the Emperor himself.

You could make a fair point that the Emperor failed to recognize the need for faith- the need to believe- in his own human followers. Basically, denying an essential part of human nature was the hubris that led to the Emperor's fall. Being somewhat inhuman himself, it was a natural mistake for the Emperor to make.

The Emperor, like most despots, tried to include religion-like ritual and pageantry in the body of his secular state. Like many historical ultranationalists, the recognized the need for ritual, but attempted to replace religious faith with logical, militantly secular Imperial Truth. Unfortunately, the Imperial Truth offers no hope for the hereafter. It is cold, logical and sterile, offering no hope against the cold realities of practical human existence. Even in the Emperor's day it offers nothing but duty and knowing one's place in the Order of Things. It is the ultimate totalitarian state, backed up by genocide.

Despite the best efforts of the Soviet Communist Party and the SS (which had an entire office responsible for suppressing religion) organized religion continued to survive and even flourish underground. Today in the People's Republic of China, sporadic suppression of religion and demi-religious movements hasn't prevented the growth of Christianity (among others). In the end, people simply need Something Greater to believe

In the end, historic human attempts to replace religion with The State have all ultimately failed (Naziism, Soviet Communism, etc.). People want and need to believe in something more powerful than logic, something they can hold up as an exemplar as well as put their faith in. During his lifetime the Emperor himself could plausibly fill that role. With his death as a martyr he had no choice.

The Emperor's attempts to suppress faith led directly to the chastisement of the Word Bearers and their subsequent fall, dragging half of the Imperial armed forces with them. The Last Church foreshadowed the Horus Heresy itself, the destruction of a dream and much that was noble and beautiful in a storm of fire and blood. All because the Emperor thought his Imperial Truth could replace faith and divinity in the hearts of men.

From this perspective the rise of the Ecclesiarchy was an almost inevitable event. Within a few generations the Imperial Truth was cast aside in favor of a plethora of faiths, all built on the martyrdom of the Emperor. It was a backlash against the suppression of something essential and very human - the desire to Believe - at the hands of the Imperial Truth.

That the atheistic Imperial Truth was replaced by something that made exactly the same demands on the people is a direct outgrowth of the Imperial Truth itself.

Basing dogma on the Emperor's own philosophy, the many Emperor-cults demanded much in terms of sacrifice and duty, yet offered little in the way of hope and kindness and justice. They were very definitely children of the Imperial Truth yet they would not accept the Emperor's denial of divinity. How could they if they were to believe in him?

It's interesting to note that the Confederation of Light was the last major contender against what would become the Ecclesiarchy, and that it significantly departed from the Imperial Truth in both dogma and practices. The IOM would probably be very different had the Confederation become the dominant faith.

But I digress. I just wanted to offer a different, religion-based interpretation of events in the 40k universe.

Sorry for the wall of text. It's sorta what I do, alas.

Please don't apologize for the length, It was very well written, and had enough breath in between.

Your points are quite valid and lead me to this thought about the Emperor: you would figure after 38k years, the Emperor would have understood this predicament all too well and recognized the matter of justifying legitimate rule with an ultimate, eternal consequence of the individual; recognizing the importance of priest and king - not the exclusion of either.

For a supreme being that's been observing humanity and supposedly guiding it for eons, he isnt very wise. It runs the immersion of the setting a tad into silliness.

Heh, maybe just viewing this for what it is - for grins - is the redeeming quality, that even the Emperor can be a complete idiot. That's quite a tragedy for such potential he has, even without the Horus Heresy and the irony thereafter.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:


You could make a fair point that the Emperor failed to recognize the need for faith- the need to believe- in his own human followers. Basically, denying an essential part of human nature was the hubris that led to the Emperor's fall. Being somewhat inhuman himself, it was a natural mistake for the Emperor to make.

Despite the best efforts of the Soviet Communist Party and the SS (which had an entire office responsible for suppressing religion) organized religion continued to survive and even flourish underground. Today in the People's Republic of China, sporadic suppression of religion and demi-religious movements hasn't prevented the growth of Christianity (among others). In the end, people simply need Something Greater to believe

In the end, historic human attempts to replace religion with The State have all ultimately failed (Naziism, Soviet Communism, etc.). People want and need to believe in something more powerful than logic, something they can hold up as an exemplar as well as put their faith in. During his lifetime the Emperor himself could plausibly fill that role. With his death as a martyr he had no choice.

Where is your source for humans "need for faith?" Do we need to believe in magic?

With regards to the USSR's propaganda campaign against religion, I'll raise the Scandinavian countries as a counter-example, specifically Norway. Norway has extremely strict alcohol laws and massive taxes on it (one of the few European countries to actually have prohibition, leading to our proud moonshine tradition and blown up barns), Norway's laws enforces the sabbath for shops (unless it's the weeks leading up to Xmas ironically), you must be a Protestant to be PM by law (and a priest was the PM a decade or so ago), colour TV in Norway is still only legal on a temporary basis as it was considered sinful (though nothing is as permanent as a temporary government solution), non-state TV channels used to be banned due to the moral degeneration (hilariously resulting in the Cuba Crisis coming to Norway a day late as a ship had gone down and the state thought that was enough bad news for a day), until a year or two ago had a blasphemy law that was used to ban Life of Brian until the mid 2000s, and all of this due to the Norwegians' previously strict protestant religious views. Now they've become tradition, and new reasons have been invented to defend the institutions, but there is no disguising the origins, but I digress.

Yet Norway, and the other similarly religious Scandinavian countries, still rank as the countries with the highest amount of atheists. The same countries also rank very highly in wealth and education, while Russia and the rest of the ex-Soviet countries don't tend to score as highly. To state the obvious, this is my opinion, but it seems religion wanes once you have a more affluent and educated population, rather than propaganda affecting people to the same degree.

 kveldulf wrote:


Please don't apologize for the length, It was very well written, and had enough breath in between.

Your points are quite valid and lead me to this thought about the Emperor: you would figure after 38k years, the Emperor would have understood this predicament all too well and recognized the matter of justifying legitimate rule with an ultimate, eternal consequence of the individual; recognizing the importance of priest and king - not the exclusion of either.

For a supreme being that's been observing humanity and supposedly guiding it for eons, he isnt very wise. It runs the immersion of the setting a tad into silliness.

Heh, maybe just viewing this for what it is - for grins - is the redeeming quality, that even the Emperor can be a complete idiot. That's quite a tragedy for such potential he has, even without the Horus Heresy and the irony thereafter.

You are missing why the Emperor was so militantly atheist though. As opposed to the real world, there is no daemonic entity that feeds upon your worship and sacrifices that eventually plans to plunge the universe into Hell. If you knew this and had the Emperor's powers, it would probably be the best solution. However, the Emperor being so detached from humanity due to his inherent nature, he didn't understand people, and that's where he struggled with the human condition. To a lesser scale, this was the same issue the Lion faced.

It is his longevity and his power that worked against him in that regard. Like Doctor Manhattan from the Watchmen, he had become so powerful, so not-human, that he forgot what it was like to be human, and cast aside most of the trappings of human existence. His size, his face, his very identity... after all, apart from his various titles and appellations, what is the Emperor's name?... all of these things could be changed to suit his whim with a mere thought.

Humans, long before the time of the Great Crusade, had ceased to be people to him, and had become nothing more than tools, pawns in a very long game he was playing against the forces of the Warp and, like pawns, he took from them only the things that he needed, put them where he needed them to be, had them do only that which he needed them to do, regardless of the cost to the pawns themselves, and, like pawns, he discarded them when they no longer suited his purposes.

 Psienesis wrote:
It is his longevity and his power that worked against him in that regard. Like Doctor Manhattan from the Watchmen, he had become so powerful, so not-human, that he forgot what it was like to be human, and cast aside most of the trappings of human existence. His size, his face, his very identity... after all, apart from his various titles and appellations, what is the Emperor's name?... all of these things could be changed to suit his whim with a mere thought.

Humans, long before the time of the Great Crusade, had ceased to be people to him, and had become nothing more than tools, pawns in a very long game he was playing against the forces of the Warp and, like pawns, he took from them only the things that he needed, put them where he needed them to be, had them do only that which he needed them to do, regardless of the cost to the pawns themselves, and, like pawns, he discarded them when they no longer suited his purposes.

What I wanted to say, but more eloquently