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 ChazSexington wrote:


Where is your source for humans "need for faith?" Do we need to believe in magic?

There is a base human need to not feel alone and that they are a part of something greater. I can’t cite a scientific study that shows this, but I can point to the fact that every civilization in the history of mankind has needed something to believe in that is bigger than themselves. This can manifest as religion, or it can manifest as belief in an ideal or concept, or even humanity itself, but there is an ontological and existential need to believe in something bigger and higher than oneself. It is fundamental to the human condition. Even DPRK believes in the state to a religious degree.

No no no. Just hold up for one second, imperial aesthetics are not based on the nazis. They are based on all the ancient and medieval symbols of our peoples and cultures, which the nazis happened to bastardize because the symbols were beautiful and represented greater power, as if they fought with it. Armies have done that for millenia. The eagle you all keep trying to compare the imperial eagle to, guess where that came from? ROME. We're talking, keyword, LEGIONS and EMPEROR in the imperium. OF COURSE they will use the symbol of the SPQR in their iconography.
And i haven't read last church, but I can tell you both from HH books and from the codices that the emperor tried to eliminate religion to defeat chaos. He honestly believed that faith was okay, but that religion corrupted. Which honestly, i agree with. My opinions aside, He was trying to protect humanity as a whole from restraining itself due to superstition when it could achieve more. Right from the onset, the emperor was always described as secular, but possessed the powers of a god due to the Super psykers that died to make him. Whether the authors of the works held these opinions themselves or not is irrelevant. Also, the religious word bearers DID mess everything up. And religion did restrain and destroy humanities potential to be great, HH onwards. The reason they focused on this is not a political agenda, but it's a common theme in human history. It played a huge role in the fall of Rome, the crusades, Charlemagne, even now. So it is kinda important to include as a big theme, just to make the fluff vibrant and real.
Therefore, Imperium are not the nazis (though the inquisition is similar... until you realize they're the spanish inquisition), the books are not meant to be truly political, and the imperium is not corrupt in trying to end religion but simply fighting chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and not every civilization needed religion. Just fearful people. Which is what the emperor was trying to make people realize.

I think its fairly clear from the HH series that Emps was very concerned about "religion" because he knows that there really aren't any gods (well, not nice benevolent ones). So the "good" religions (lets just say for example something like Christianity) are probably false born from ignorance and the rest are most likely the work of chaos gods.

Therefore, Emps, as any parent might, tries to take the bad habit away from his children ("his children" being the whole of humanity).

You have to remember that the nature of chaos is unrelenting and deadly - remember the great galaxy spanning empire of the eldar?....no?.... that's because it was utterly destroyed by chaos in its prime! (and was so catastrophic emotionally that it created a 4th god of chaos) So Emps tried to put a lid on it and did so with an iron fist (and who could blame him).

He did pretty well.... but he just made too many mistakes. Didn't handle Horus very well, handled Lorgar even worse, practically forced Angron into service, I don't really get Alpharious's lame-ass-excuse, but what the hey. Why didn't he tell at least the primarchs about the chaos - or just horus? or tell someone what he was up to in his cave on terra?

I don't think Emps wanted people to be fearful per say... I think he was just way too concerned with chaos getting a hold. I think he should'a trained his primarchs and legions to fight chaos from the start...

So... eventually some of his sons rebelled because they didn't know what the hey Emps was all about and fell in with these new cool dudes they found in the maelstrom because they didn't know better : (

Good job they did....else warhammer 40k would be a very dull world : )

Wasn't Alpharius just super close to Horus and the other Primarchs (especially Guilleman) were rude so he went with his friend.

pop quiz: 40k IG cosplay or historical artefact

 oldzoggy wrote:
pop quiz: 40k IG cosplay or historical artefact

One day, this question may actually become hard for the average gamer.

:O

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't Alpharius just super close to Horus and the other Primarchs (especially Guilleman) were rude so he went with his friend.

Well, its true that some Primarchs where not terribly fond of Alpharius/Omegon, but .... very noble, but also kind of lame but I don't think Alphy/Omegy really cared what their other brothers think

They could also, y'know, prevent the Emperor from being killed .

bolter_fodder wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't Alpharius just super close to Horus and the other Primarchs (especially Guilleman) were rude so he went with his friend.

Well, its true that some Primarchs where not terribly fond of Alpharius/Omegon, but

Spoiler:

they where among the most loyal Primarchs (apparently), it was for this reason that they waged war against Emps...i.e. to kill him off quickly to avoid him spending 10000 years of miserable existence half-dead on the golden throne. .... T'was some guy called John (and his "pub friends") who persuaded Alphy/Omegy that this is what is best in life, and not just to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women (like most warriors should)

.... very noble, but also kind of lame but I don't think Alphy/Omegy really cared what their other brothers think

You are talking about the Cabal, right? Weren't they retconned, along with the star child and the Illuminati?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

bolter_fodder wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't Alpharius just super close to Horus and the other Primarchs (especially Guilleman) were rude so he went with his friend.

Well, its true that some Primarchs where not terribly fond of Alpharius/Omegon, but

Spoiler:

they where among the most loyal Primarchs (apparently), it was for this reason that they waged war against Emps...i.e. to kill him off quickly to avoid him spending 10000 years of miserable existence half-dead on the golden throne. .... T'was some guy called John (and his "pub friends") who persuaded Alphy/Omegy that this is what is best in life, and not just to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women (like most warriors should)

.... very noble, but also kind of lame but I don't think Alphy/Omegy really cared what their other brothers think

You are talking about the Cabal, right? Weren't they retconned, along with the star child and the Illuminati?

Star Child and Illuminati just aren't talked about, anymore, so they weren't necessarily retconned just... ignored. As for the Cabal, it's mentioned all throughout the HH series (Legion, as mentioned, but also Fallen Angels,Descent of Angels, Unremembered Empire, Know no Fear, and a bunch of other books that I don't care to remember)

 GKTiberius wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:


Where is your source for humans "need for faith?" Do we need to believe in magic?

There is a base human need to not feel alone and that they are a part of something greater. I can’t cite a scientific study that shows this, but I can point to the fact that every civilization in the history of mankind has needed something to believe in that is bigger than themselves. This can manifest as religion, or it can manifest as belief in an ideal or concept, or even humanity itself, but there is an ontological and existential need to believe in something bigger and higher than oneself. It is fundamental to the human condition. Even DPRK believes in the state to a religious degree.

Well... I disagree, unless what's you mean is tribalism. And I wouldn't say the DPRK religion is spontaneous, which I'm assuming is one of the requirements.

I'll take the Big E over the chaos gods anyday.

40k is like a parody in that it deliberately, unapologetically mimics popular culture. For example, IG Sentinels are 100% inspired by Star Wars AT-STs. The Land Raider being practically identical to the MK1 tank. Genestealers are Xenomorphs. You even have FW Hive Tyrants (believe modelled along lines of 3rd Ed Tyrants?) with a head crest pretty similar to those of Xenomorph queens. You have the Nids and IG looking a hell of a lot like Starship Troopers. Tau are gundam. Eldar and DE are Elves and Dark Elves in space that are so unoriginal they are WHFB elves in Space, with the same Gods. Their god of war is also god of murder, and named Khaine. You know who else's name is pronounced like that? Cain, from the bible, the father of murder who killed Able.

Most of this is because when created initially, copyrighting wasn't as huge a deal, so a couple guys building models in their basement for a fun tabletop game didn't have to worry about it. Nowadays if they built a space marine that wears more formfitting suits and uses thrusters in hands and feet instead of jump packs, they'd have Disney and Marvel breathing down their necks. Or basically any bigger company could flatten them financially in court. So they repeatedly say that they are all 150% original ideas.

Tau are really a lot more like Patlabor mixed with Macross by way of Battletech.

Mobile Suits and Gundams very, very rarely have integrated weaponry other than a head vulcan that's basically little more than an AMS.