Cannuck wrote:I get the feeling that you're playing a fluffy fun list and this Tau player is playing a WAAC list (3-6 riptides, jaysus). Would you mind posting both of your general lists?

DirtyDeeds wrote:I think you can still take the essence of the seer council without the formation.

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. Mabye more basic practice with your army. You may not be used to all their special rules. Try a few more games against regular opponents. Also try unconventional units mixed in to really learn the ins and outs of your army. It takes years at this game to really get good.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
All I'm trying to say is Tau are top tier in my eyes. So you need top tier armies to take them on.

AstraVlad wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
All I'm trying to say is Tau are top tier in my eyes. So you need top tier armies to take them on.

Exactly what I wanted to say!

TheNewBlood, if you want to be able to beat Tau, you have to take all cheesy cheese your codex have and bring all and every cheesy allies you can. Swarms of scatter-bikes (6 units of 3 will be just fine), Wraithguard-drop (DE Archont will help you to do this), multiple units of warp-spiders, at least one WraithKnight, etc. Without any average units (such as Guardians and Rangers) and without any unnecessary upgrades (powerblades for WS Exarch for example). And only then you will have a hope to win this little blue-skinned cheating fishes.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

I definitely think this is an improvement over my previous list, but I'm wondering what other people think about what I have here.

AstraVlad wrote:
So, don't play with Tau. They are cheaters able to twist or ignore every game rule we have to obey, so there is no way to win other than squeezing every bit of power from your codex.

As for me I never enjoy playing against them (if you ever played against 3 Riptides at 750 pts mini-tournament you will definitely understand why).

 carldooley wrote:

then, play with more LoS blocking terrain?

AstraVlad wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

then, play with more LoS blocking terrain?

Just one word (well, technically two): SMS-spam.

And new Stormsurge if correctly understand what can be done with it's weapons and markerlights.

Tau can effectively ignore NightFighting, cover-saves, LOS, vehicles facing, can buy Interceptor and Skyfire at dirt-cheap prices, can make it's weapons D-stenghth by spending just a markerlight and have moving fortification which can glance LandRaider to death with reflected bolter shots (!). It is no fun playing against them.

notredameguy10 wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

then, play with more LoS blocking terrain?

Just one word (well, technically two): SMS-spam.

And new Stormsurge if correctly understand what can be done with it's weapons and markerlights.

Tau can effectively ignore NightFighting, cover-saves, LOS, vehicles facing, can buy Interceptor and Skyfire at dirt-cheap prices, can make it's weapons D-stenghth by spending just a markerlight and have moving fortification which can glance LandRaider to death with reflected bolter shots (!). It is no fun playing against them.

Haha someone is a little whiner aren't they. Tau have had most of those things for ages and have always placed middle of the pack in tournaments.

Tidewall is not good at all for the cost
Velocity Trackers (skyfire) are 20 points a piece, which are not "dirt cheap"
They have 1 single weapon which ignore LoS and it is Str5 / AP5
One single model (SS) has one time use missiles which can be made D (plus you need multiple marker lights which increases its effective cost) and that model costs over 400 points properly equipped. In comparison, Wraithknights have 2 D shots per turn as many times as they want.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Now back to the OP. Dude, people are giving you advice to make your list but you're rejecting every single piece because you don't want to bring the best your codex has to offer against the new meta. If you don't want to keep up then it's your fault if you fall behind and continue to fail against Tau.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Now back to the OP. Dude, people are giving you advice to make your list but you're rejecting every single piece because you don't want to bring the best your codex has to offer against the new meta. If you don't want to keep up then it's your fault if you fall behind and continue to fail against Tau.

Except I already have changed my list, based both on the advice that's been given to me and how I think I can improve the list overall to face Tau.

Yeah, I don't want to bring Scatbikers/D-Weapons/Wraithknights to a game, because that's no fun for my opponent, even if they are playing Tau. More importantly, I don't find that style of play fun or interesting for me to play. I like to think I'm playing Codex: Eldar, not Codex: Cheese.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Haha someone is a little whiner aren't they. Tau have had most of those things for ages and have always placed middle of the pack in tournaments.

AstraVlad wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Problem is, I don't want to be a cheesemonger

So, don't play with Tau. They are cheaters able to twist or ignore every game rule we have to obey, so there is no way to win other than squeezing every bit of power from your codex.

As for me I never enjoy playing against them (if you ever played against 3 Riptides at 750 pts mini-tournament you will definitely understand why).

AstraVlad wrote:
I've won as much games against Tau as I've lost, but I never had any fun doing this. Even Eldar are more fun to play against.

 carldooley wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:
I've won as much games against Tau as I've lost, but I never had any fun doing this. Even Eldar are more fun to play against.

then where is the problem? you really should only expect to win 50% of the time anyways - otherwise people will likely stop playing you. Besides, if you aren't having fun playing the games, that isn't your opponent's fault - it is yours.

Ceaser wrote:

So if your opponent is a waac douchemonger who does nothing but gloat and throw petty insults your way, gets angry when his dice rolls are bad or happy when yours are, then it's your own fault you're not having fun? Huh.. Never knew that. Thanks for the wise words ole smart one

Martel732 wrote:
" As for scatbikes I've never thought them cheese at all."

Then you are insane or an Eldar homer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AstraVlad wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Haha someone is a little whiner aren't they. Tau have had most of those things for ages and have always placed middle of the pack in tournaments.

It is because at a tournament they face highly optimized lists and highly competitive players. And that is why I don't like to play against them: it is more of a work than a game. I've won as much games against Tau as I've lost, but I never had any fun doing this. Even Eldar are more fun to play against.

Nope.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I think your problem is that your playing people who bring 3 riptides to a 750 point mini tournament. That said... if that's his list, there are many other ways to win, and there are many things that counter riptides.

Saythings wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" As for scatbikes I've never thought them cheese at all."

Then you are insane or an Eldar homer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AstraVlad wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Haha someone is a little whiner aren't they. Tau have had most of those things for ages and have always placed middle of the pack in tournaments.

It is because at a tournament they face highly optimized lists and highly competitive players. And that is why I don't like to play against them: it is more of a work than a game. I've won as much games against Tau as I've lost, but I never had any fun doing this. Even Eldar are more fun to play against.

Nope.

Martel's ever-pleasant words of wisdom. Haha...

I don't think Eldar Scat bikes are cheese. There are way too many good options coming out of the newer codexes to still think Eldar Scat bikes are cheese. If you're comparing them to older codexes, shame on you. Stop playing older codexes in competitive scenes. You are going to see the stronger codexes at higher level of play. Calling noted codexes cheese is pointless. I'm not saying you can't win with other codexes, or the weaker ones, cause you definitely can. I just wanted to point out that "cheese" is relevant.

In this particular post, if you're comparing new Eldar and new Tau, almost the entire book can be considered "cheese" or closer to it then older codexes. From what I can pick up, a lot of people are giving good advice and the OP either refuses to change his list, or decides to derail the solution with more personal conundrums.

Nothing from either of the codexes seems broken, op, or "cheese" to me. You simply need a more optimized list. The OP openly admits he has around a 50/50 win/loss and still felt the need to start this post. If you want to raise your win/rate, build a better list. If both players are equal footing experience-wise, then the next step to improve game-play is your list building. Followed by the luck of the roll.

I suppose some will see this as a rant. I'm just trying to figure out what the OP really wants to get out of this post besides the same advice that has been given over and over again. There is definitely solid advice sprinkled throughout here.

Martel732 wrote:

Saythings wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" As for scatbikes I've never thought them cheese at all."

Then you are insane or an Eldar homer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AstraVlad wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Haha someone is a little whiner aren't they. Tau have had most of those things for ages and have always placed middle of the pack in tournaments.

It is because at a tournament they face highly optimized lists and highly competitive players. And that is why I don't like to play against them: it is more of a work than a game. I've won as much games against Tau as I've lost, but I never had any fun doing this. Even Eldar are more fun to play against.

Nope.

Martel's ever-pleasant words of wisdom. Haha...

I don't think Eldar Scat bikes are cheese. There are way too many good options coming out of the newer codexes to still think Eldar Scat bikes are cheese. If you're comparing them to older codexes, shame on you. Stop playing older codexes in competitive scenes. You are going to see the stronger codexes at higher level of play. Calling noted codexes cheese is pointless. I'm not saying you can't win with other codexes, or the weaker ones, cause you definitely can. I just wanted to point out that "cheese" is relevant.

In this particular post, if you're comparing new Eldar and new Tau, almost the entire book can be considered "cheese" or closer to it then older codexes. From what I can pick up, a lot of people are giving good advice and the OP either refuses to change his list, or decides to derail the solution with more personal conundrums.

Nothing from either of the codexes seems broken, op, or "cheese" to me. You simply need a more optimized list. The OP openly admits he has around a 50/50 win/loss and still felt the need to start this post. If you want to raise your win/rate, build a better list. If both players are equal footing experience-wise, then the next step to improve game-play is your list building. Followed by the luck of the roll.

I suppose some will see this as a rant. I'm just trying to figure out what the OP really wants to get out of this post besides the same advice that has been given over and over again. There is definitely solid advice sprinkled throughout here.

The Dark Angels have nothing remotely as good as the scatterbike. The vanilla marines don't have any stand-alone units that are, either. Vanilla marines are kept on life support by a few cheesy combos. Both lists are current, not older, and neither can disintegrate entire lists from 36" away with their TROOPS choice. And when you start comboing with Eldar, marines can't touch them.

Nothing is cheese from Tau or Eldar? That makes it really hard to take you seriously.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Scat Bikes are an abomination, and represent such an aberration of design philosophy, it's one of the few things that made me question my commitment to this game. For 27 points no unit can match them in firepower per point, let alone with the mobility and durability. When compared directly to other troops it's even more of a joke, and that's with out including the physic powers eldar can use to boost them. I don't mind eldar being powerful, but don't pretend that they arn't silly.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue with them is they violate the idea that troops have limited access to special weapons. Every member can take a special weapon, no other troop can do that. Additionally to show how out of scale they are, take a tactical marine. Even if every member could take a special weapon a space marine with a grav/plasma weapon would cost 29 points per model. This shows them to be an abomination, something that should never have existed.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
As a disclaimer, I play in areas where the ITC ruling regarding the CFP ruling has taken effect. I also play Eldar, so YMMV regarding my advice.

I have lost all of my games so far against the new Tau. I'm not saying that they're overpowered or unbeatable, but they are an army that I really struggle to effectively counter on the tabletop. I want to improve my own strategies on the table to best counter what new Tau can bring.

One of the problems that I face is that I play an infantry-heavy army that is heavily reliant on cover saves. It used to be that the way you dealt with this versus Tau was simple: kill the Markerlights, and most of their cover-ignoring weaponry goes away (damn SMS!). Now, the Infiltration Cadre grants this as a formation bonus, and the Hunter Contingent allows for Tau to somewhat mitigate their reliance on Markerlights to boost their BS. Transports are also not a solution as the Infiltration Cadre will wipe them out. Unless you have full null-deployment, you will be wiped out by the brutal alpha strike that three or even six Riptides can provide, and even then that's not a guarantee due to Tau's easy access to Interceptor. In short, in a game dominated by shooting, Tau are now the best shooting army in the game. Yeah, I'm saying it: Tau have better shooting than Eldar. And if my Eldar struggle against Tau, I hate to imagine how my future Dark Eldar army will fair.

However, I do feel that there are areas where the new Tau are vulnerable, specifically in Melee, Mobility, and Psychic ability. Melee is a classic weakness of Tau, specifically their low initiative and WS. Get into combat, and you can either lock down their shooting or wipe them out entirely. While Tau do have Supporting Fire, this just puts more onus onto ways of negating their overwatch, performing flanking assaults onto units caught out of position, and multi-charging units in range to offset the damage of Tau overwatch. Mobility is key in 7th edition, and this is another area where Tau have weaknesses. While Tau can move in the Assault Phase, Jet Pack units are not the fastest units in the game. Bikes, Fast Skimmers,and plenty of Eldar units are faster on average than even the most mobile of Tau units. While Tau can easily Deep-Strike, so can many other units in other armies, and they can control the board to a much greater extent than Tau with their Deep-Strike deployment. Finally, Tau have no psychic ability of any kind, which translates to extremely poor psychic defences. Psychic Shriek is as effective as ever, especially against the Ghostkeel/Infiltration Cadre and Riptide Wing. Invisibility is also very effective, even in the ITC, in keeping important units alive.

While my tournament army list lacks in melee ability, it has plenty of mobility already, and I'm trying to improve its psychic ability. I've modified it to include the Seer Council formation; in keeping with my anti-meta approach, I'm keeping the council on Foot, with one Farseer going for Runes of Fate while the other is dedicated to Telepathy.

Is anyone else having trouble with new Tau? What strategies do you recommend when going against what the new Tau can bring to the table?

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
As a disclaimer, I play in areas where the ITC ruling regarding the CFP ruling has taken effect. I also play Eldar, so YMMV regarding my advice.

I have lost all of my games so far against the new Tau. I'm not saying that they're overpowered or unbeatable, but they are an army that I really struggle to effectively counter on the tabletop. I want to improve my own strategies on the table to best counter what new Tau can bring.

One of the problems that I face is that I play an infantry-heavy army that is heavily reliant on cover saves. It used to be that the way you dealt with this versus Tau was simple: kill the Markerlights, and most of their cover-ignoring weaponry goes away (damn SMS!). Now, the Infiltration Cadre grants this as a formation bonus, and the Hunter Contingent allows for Tau to somewhat mitigate their reliance on Markerlights to boost their BS. Transports are also not a solution as the Infiltration Cadre will wipe them out. Unless you have full null-deployment, you will be wiped out by the brutal alpha strike that three or even six Riptides can provide, and even then that's not a guarantee due to Tau's easy access to Interceptor. In short, in a game dominated by shooting, Tau are now the best shooting army in the game. Yeah, I'm saying it: Tau have better shooting than Eldar. And if my Eldar struggle against Tau, I hate to imagine how my future Dark Eldar army will fair.

However, I do feel that there are areas where the new Tau are vulnerable, specifically in Melee, Mobility, and Psychic ability. Melee is a classic weakness of Tau, specifically their low initiative and WS. Get into combat, and you can either lock down their shooting or wipe them out entirely. While Tau do have Supporting Fire, this just puts more onus onto ways of negating their overwatch, performing flanking assaults onto units caught out of position, and multi-charging units in range to offset the damage of Tau overwatch. Mobility is key in 7th edition, and this is another area where Tau have weaknesses. While Tau can move in the Assault Phase, Jet Pack units are not the fastest units in the game. Bikes, Fast Skimmers,and plenty of Eldar units are faster on average than even the most mobile of Tau units. While Tau can easily Deep-Strike, so can many other units in other armies, and they can control the board to a much greater extent than Tau with their Deep-Strike deployment. Finally, Tau have no psychic ability of any kind, which translates to extremely poor psychic defences. Psychic Shriek is as effective as ever, especially against the Ghostkeel/Infiltration Cadre and Riptide Wing. Invisibility is also very effective, even in the ITC, in keeping important units alive.

While my tournament army list lacks in melee ability, it has plenty of mobility already, and I'm trying to improve its psychic ability. I've modified it to include the Seer Council formation; in keeping with my anti-meta approach, I'm keeping the council on Foot, with one Farseer going for Runes of Fate while the other is dedicated to Telepathy.

Is anyone else having trouble with new Tau? What strategies do you recommend when going against what the new Tau can bring to the table?

Since you play Eldar, how do you feel about including Raiders into the mix as transports for assaulty types to weather it for a round, jink til their dead and then lock all the Tau shooting down in melee?

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Lol? Sms would destroy raiders before they got close enough to assault. One sms is 4 str 5 ap 5 shots that ignore cover and line of sight. All our riptides and broadsides can carry these weapon systems.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Lol? Sms would destroy raiders before they got close enough to assault. One sms is 4 str 5 ap 5 shots that ignore cover and line of sight. All our riptides and broadsides can carry these weapon systems.

average dude has 1 TL sms. BS3 translates to 3 hits. 5s to glance basically means that you are getting either a glance or a pen out of those 3 hits. Meanwhile in terms of raiders (I know venoms get 5++) do raiders?

otherwise it doesn't matter.

If raiders go first.. you move as fast as you can and then turboboost right into Taus face. If you go second, sms is only 30"... deploy out of range and wait.. then move in as fast as you can, because you're much faster.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
DE might not win LVO. But I disagree with anyone that says they aren't good. DE have some really nice tricks, and have some gross use of cover (which tau is one of few armies that can handle that).

DirtyDeeds wrote:

I'll go ahead an ignore that first sentence as its blatantly false. Riptides and Broadsides come with these weapons stock and should be used by each of these models (at least the Broadsides, anyways). But everything in the Tau Codex, except for Flamers and Airbrushing Fragmentation Projectors, can PENETRATE and potentially explode a Raider. Give the unit two Markerlights and you Ignore the Raider's cover. 30 may be the effective range of that weapon system, but it's not the only one we have. While I agree that you can deploy outside 30 to avoid those shots, it's not the only weapon to worry about.

I play both armies extensively. I know how easy it is to destroy Raiders with Tau and it's laughable that anyone would suggest it.

 SickSix wrote:
Sorry I just have to break in hear and ask; in what universe are people saying Tau got nerfed?

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

 Darth_Mox wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

This is the dude saying Tau got nerfed.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
For once, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Martel732. Scatbikers are cheese, no matter how you look at it. 27 points for a 3+ save Eldar Jetbike that fires four S6 shots at 36 inches is ludicrously undercosted. The only reason people can beat them is that there are other things out there that are just as nasty and broken.

In other non-Scatbiker news, I've decided to amend my list some more. I really like the idea of taking dual Farseers to support my Guardians boost my psychic potential.The Autarch has done solid work for me in the past, but I can see how he's a bit of a one-trick pony. Maybe he'll find a way into my Eldar Warhost. I dropped the Vyper, the Rangers, and the Swooping Hawk Exarch's Hawk's Talon to come up with this for the CAD portion of my tournament army:

Combined Arms Detachment: 765 points

HQ:
Farseer (Warlord) with Singing Spear and Spirit Stone of Anath'lan

Farseer with Phoenix Gem

Troops:
Guardian Defenders with Starcannon X2

Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter Exarch

Heavy Support:
2x War Walkers with Dual Bright Lances

Apart from the alteration I made to the Swooping Hawks, I feel the Aspect Hosts are in solid shape.

Both the Farseers will join Guardian squads so the Guardians can act as bodyguards and have decent Leadership. My Warlord Farseer will concentrate on the Runes of Fate and Divination, as those have many solid WC2 powers, while my other Farseer will focus on Telepathy. The Phoenix Gen will compensate for the Farseer's lack of durability, and has some easy targets in the Guardian squad. i had the points to spare to upgrade to a Crimson Hunter Exarch; BS5 is more than worth the points and makes him a much bigger threat and less dependent on psychic support.

 Darth_Mox wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

This is the dude saying Tau got nerfed.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Darth_Mox wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

This is the dude saying Tau got nerfed.

In the sense that Coordinated Firepower got nerfed by the ITC

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

I'll go ahead an ignore that first sentence as its blatantly false. Riptides and Broadsides come with these weapons stock and should be used by each of these models (at least the Broadsides, anyways). But everything in the Tau Codex, except for Flamers and Airbrushing Fragmentation Projectors, can PENETRATE and potentially explode a Raider. Give the unit two Markerlights and you Ignore the Raider's cover. 30 may be the effective range of that weapon system, but it's not the only one we have. While I agree that you can deploy outside 30 to avoid those shots, it's not the only weapon to worry about.

I play both armies extensively. I know how easy it is to destroy Raiders with Tau and it's laughable that anyone would suggest it.

My first sentence was far from false.. saying the average dude (model) has 1 TL sms is actually exactly TRUE. Tau have many options for ranged anti armor and I 100% agree that with their abundance of s7 they can handle DE plenty fine. My main point, is DE players can counter deploy to ignore the majority of range threats (core threats are 36"), LOS blocking terrain use, and use of cover to survive the limited range shooting first turn.

After this, How many transports do DE usually use? I only have one friend who plays DE, but his average list has about 8 transports. I usually take 1 maybe 2 if I am lucky; first turn at range. And the next turn he either makes risks to score objectives or is in my face with everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, usually has 2+ reserves, and runs 3 Flyers that come in and nuke whatever main threat to his vehicles I have (broadsides)

 Grizzyzz wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Darth_Mox wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

This is the dude saying Tau got nerfed.

In the sense that Coordinated Firepower got nerfed by the ITC

I disagree with how that all went down.. IMHO too hasty and too many emotions involved then actual true consideration.

That said, CF is still good, ITC did nothing to refute the +1 BS and markerlight use.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

I'll go ahead an ignore that first sentence as its blatantly false. Riptides and Broadsides come with these weapons stock and should be used by each of these models (at least the Broadsides, anyways). But everything in the Tau Codex, except for Flamers and Airbrushing Fragmentation Projectors, can PENETRATE and potentially explode a Raider. Give the unit two Markerlights and you Ignore the Raider's cover. 30 may be the effective range of that weapon system, but it's not the only one we have. While I agree that you can deploy outside 30 to avoid those shots, it's not the only weapon to worry about.

I play both armies extensively. I know how easy it is to destroy Raiders with Tau and it's laughable that anyone would suggest it.

Martel732 wrote:
DE vs Tau is a joke matchup in favor of Tau. Denying this is being intellectually dishonest, I think. Even BA have a chance against DE, meaning that the power lists should basically never lose to them.

 Jancoran wrote:

Wow. that was rude. 30" range will never trump a Raiders 36" movement. So you just start at 43" away. Turn one, you are 7 inches away from the enemy! It's that simple. So nothing you said made any sense.

And you seem to be blythely unaware that NO ONE cares if the Raiders EVENTUALLY die! But you need a fair number of SMS to actually get through AV 10 THREE timee. But again: who cares? the Raiders did their job. Whether they live or die after that is immaterial.

Martel732 wrote:
DE vs Tau is a joke matchup in favor of Tau. Denying this is being intellectually dishonest, I think.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DE vs Tau is a joke matchup in favor of Tau. Denying this is being intellectually dishonest, I think.

A defeatist attitude never taught anyone anything useful.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Just know that Raiders are not a good choice unless you want to deep strike D Scythe Wraithguard in a vehicle that will take some damage for the unit.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Pure DE can beat out new armies by not actually engaging and going extreme MSU, but depending on the Tau list, if they are heavy on target locks then they would be the wild card to ruin your day either way BUT if he is spliting fire and targets he is probably hitting on 4's with the exception of the few power units.

For example spamming RSR detachments lets you take a hillarious amount of single clawed fiend units. Which funnily enough can still rape small tau units in combat and never need to take panic checks due to being single model units. 3 T5 wounds that move 12 ignoring terrain with fleet can be amazing at maelstrom. At 30 ppm it's not hard to take 12 in a double detachment on top of spamming Lamahean venoms (4 for 8 more units) and venom warriors, take 36 pt out flanking/infiltrating mandrakes to really boggle their targeting.

But at the end of the day, I can tell you from experience that pulling a win from spamming targets to get popped does get very boring and old, even if you win on objectives.

 Jancoran wrote:
Have you seen what IG could theoretically do? They can take nothing but command squads if they want. Lol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Have you seen what IG could theoretically do? They can take nothing but command squads if they want. Lol.

Yes, they can.

And it's absolutely useless because you cannot grant any of the benefits to anything outside of that detachment.

 Jancoran wrote:

I think you're underestimating what 20 Lascannons that never fail their orders, basically, can do. Not to mention the rest of their firepower. Its an interesting idea for sure.

AstraVlad wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think you're underestimating what 20 Lascannons that never fail their orders, basically, can do. Not to mention the rest of their firepower. Its an interesting idea for sure.

It's better to think about 6 CCSs in Flash Tearers Drop-Pods with almost guaranteed Ignores Cover or Tank Hunters/ Monster hunters and 4 BS4 melta-guns each (of course you can take a couple of plasma squads for a good old plasma-shower). And of course artillery formation with 2 9/3 Twin Linked Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters Ordnance Large Blasts and D3 10/4 Twin Linked Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters Ordnance Large Blasts. With some lucky rolls they can make a real bloodbath.

Martel732 wrote:
Null deployment bring its own liabilities, though.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Null deployment bring its own liabilities, though.

Not against the drop pods you're suggesting.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Darth_Mox wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If you cant beat nerfed tau with eldar, I dont know what to tell you. .

This is the dude saying Tau got nerfed.

HA! Totally glanced over that post. Hmm. sounds like he is just trolling. lol

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Null deployment bring its own liabilities, though.

Not against the drop pods you're suggesting.

I'm not suggesting drop pods. I think drop pods are highly overrated. I'm just suggesting that null deployment is self-defeating.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Have you seen what IG could theoretically do? They can take nothing but command squads if they want. Lol.

Yes, they can.

And it's absolutely useless because you cannot grant any of the benefits to anything outside of that detachment.

I think you're underestimating what 20 Lascannons that never fail their orders, basically, can do. Not to mention the rest of their firepower. Its an interesting idea for sure.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Have you seen what IG could theoretically do? They can take nothing but command squads if they want. Lol.

Yes, they can.

And it's absolutely useless because you cannot grant any of the benefits to anything outside of that detachment.

I think you're underestimating what 20 Lascannons that never fail their orders, basically, can do. Not to mention the rest of their firepower. Its an interesting idea for sure.

And I think you're not understanding that you can still fail Orders with the Cadian Battlegroup and that it basically is useless since you can only ever issue a single Order to one unit, so the biggest benefit of the CBG(three Orders per turn rather than two and 24" range for issuing Orders to units that are part of that Detachment) is effectively wasted.

And what are you talking about "the rest of their firepower"? A Company Command Squad is 5 guys, one of which is the Company Commander. If you put in "20 Lascannons" like you're talking about, you're taking 20 Company Command Squads and immediately taking them from 4 models that can be given things down to 2.
So, two models with Lascannons and two models with...whatever else you put on them.
Congratulations. You just paid 1600 points before any items on the Company Commanders, Special Weapons, etc for Lascannons in an Imperial Guard army without the accompany ablative wounds of squads/blob squads.

For that same 1600 points in the form of an Emperor's Shield Infantry Company?
I can bring:
15x Infantry Squads with Lascannons(1050 points)
3x Platoon Command Squads with Lascannons(150 points)
1x Company Command Squad with Lascannon(80 points)
3x Armoured Sentinel Squadrons of 1 model each with a Lascannon (150 points)
1x Company Command Squad with Lascannon as Battlegroup HQ (80 points)

1510 points gets me 3 150 model blob squads(or 15 ten man squads with a Lascannon in each squad), with 5 Lascannons in each squad and STILL comes 90 points cheaper than what you posted all receiving Orders at 24" rather than 12"--in addition to whatever Warlord traits you get.

 Jancoran wrote:

I think you're confused on a couple points. But regardless, its a pretty interesting idea.

 Jancoran wrote:

AstraVlad wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think you're underestimating what 20 Lascannons that never fail their orders, basically, can do. Not to mention the rest of their firepower. Its an interesting idea for sure.

It's better to think about 6 CCSs in Flash Tearers Drop-Pods with almost guaranteed Ignores Cover or Tank Hunters/ Monster hunters and 4 BS4 melta-guns each (of course you can take a couple of plasma squads for a good old plasma-shower). And of course artillery formation with 2 9/3 Twin Linked Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters Ordnance Large Blasts and D3 10/4 Twin Linked Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters Ordnance Large Blasts. With some lucky rolls they can make a real bloodbath.

What do you do if they null deploy? Twiddle your thumbs?

Martel732 wrote:
" Saying its self defeating to someone who does it well: why would you ever? "

Because I don't know the quality of your opponents. The success of null deploy has less to do with the null deployer and how well the opponent takes advantage of the problems with null deploy. Sounds like your opponents kind of lose their minds when confronted with null deploy if you are winning that much with it.

Don't ever mistake the utter incompetence of the BA codex for me not knowing how something like null deploy works. It just so happens that the BA don't have anything worth null deploying.

NG77 wrote:
Why the mandiblasters on the Autarch? Surely against Tau, the ability to deny overwatch with the banshee mask is better? I know the tournament is wysiwyg, but surely you could find a way to convert it?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

The tournament isn't purely WYSIWYG, so some flexibility is allowed. While the Mandiblasters are good against MCs, I have already altered my tournament list to drop the Autarch and go for dual Farseers. The Autarch has found a way into my more friendly list as a means of improving that list's power, mobility, and flexibility.

I have yet to face new Tau with my updated tournament list, but I am feeling confident. I will update when I get the chance to test it against Tau.