Just guess, but I think the companion guide will be a collection of things we normally would see in other prints. I will not be surprised if the companion is a collection of things like...
Warlords of the Dark Millennium
Altar of War
Index Astartes
How To Paint...
If you add up the cost if all of those things to create a Codex Dark Angels Companion and it would be in the $75 dollar range. So yeah, A lot of fluff and matbe a few new missions to run with knight in mind. Of course some of that stuff might be in the codex instead...
DJGietzen wrote: Just guess, but I think the companion guide will be a collection of things we normally would see in other prints. I will not be surprised if the companion is a collection of things like...
Warlords of the Dark Millennium
Altar of War
Index Astartes
How To Paint...
If you add up the cost if all of those things to create a Codex Dark Angels Companion and it would be in the $75 dollar range. So yeah, A lot of fluff and matbe a few new missions to run with knight in mind. Of course some of that stuff might be in the codex instead...
And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
I'm thinking the same thing. The one Supplement I had to have was the Iyanden one. After I went through it detail by detail, I was OK with the fluff part but then somehow stunned the painted section was almost mini for mini a copy of the Codex.
I just can't come up with what they could possibly introduce in a Supplement for an Army that has..... 2 Units.
[Edit] I'll give them 2 Units, even though you are correct, it's more of an upgrade.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
To be fair, it's a large unit...
No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
To be fair, it's a large unit...
No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
I won't mind if the book is around 20$ and that it is packed with diagrams, pictures, original art and great lore on Knight houses and such.
But we all know it will be a citadel fine-HardbackTM with little fluff.
According to that release list, it is a hardback book, and is over US$30 more than the actual Codex.
I remember way, way, way back in the day when GW released the first "Codex: Assassins", and a lot of us were amazed that GW could charge $15 for a 14 page book with 4 units in it. Now we have a US$40 hard-back book for a single unit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
To be fair, it's a large unit...
No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
I won't mind if the book is around 20$ and that it is packed with diagrams, pictures, original art and great lore on Knight houses and such.
But we all know it will be a citadel fine-HardbackTM with little fluff.
Ctan_Overlord wrote: Someone posted a rough size comparison between the knight and a Wraithknight on Reddit.
Makes me much more hesitant to pay €110 for it...
Ctan_Overlord wrote: Someone posted a rough size comparison between the knight and a Wraithknight on Reddit.
Makes me much more hesitant to pay €110 for it...
Well, that comparison is either way off, or I got sold two short changed Wraiths, because they don't look like they're nearly 9 inches tall to me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
To be fair, it's a large unit...
No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
I won't mind if the book is around 20$ and that it is packed with diagrams, pictures, original art and great lore on Knight houses and such.
But we all know it will be a citadel fine-HardbackTM with little fluff.
There's a leak about 2 pages back.
It ain't $20
...
I think I'm gonna cry now.
HOW DID GW BOTCH THIS UP SO BADLY?!
GW BOTCHED UP THE MOST NOSTALGIC 40K UNIT! THAT'S LIKE RUINING BEAKIES! IT TAKES EFFORT TO DO THAT!
Fans get excited, begin to beeline that perhaps things are going to change
GW contrive to feth it up and piss all over excellent idea.
Fans wail, gnash teeth, continue to wait for change.
To be fair I can't help loving theses things. It's probably the first time I can remember since 2009 (when I started) when GW actually successfully nailed down the 40k tone.
The Codex has all the information for the units, just like a regular codex. So you will be able to field your fancy Knight army in a game of Regular Warhammer 40K. You only need your copy of Escalation for the Super Heavy rules and D weapon rules!
Or you can just buy our Guidebook which has the Escalation rules required to actually play these units and which helps "guide" you into Apocalypse!
Medium of Death wrote: If the Codex doesn't have the apocalypse/escalation rules that these use in them I'll be very annoyed.
Does every other Codex have rules that are already present in the regular 40K rulebooks?
Nooooooo!
I was thinking that when I typed it, yet I'm hoping that GW won't dick me over and make me buy two more books to use the models I really want to buy. Hope is a cruel mistress.
Medium of Death wrote: I was thinking that when I typed it, yet I'm hoping that GW won't dick me over and make me buy two more books to use the models I really want to buy.
Remember what Az just said: Don't let yourself believe.
Crimson wrote: I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
Crimson wrote: I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
Well, not all mechanical, bi pedal constructs keep their genitalia in the same location.
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
Ctan_Overlord wrote: Someone posted a rough size comparison between the knight and a Wraithknight on Reddit.
Makes me much more hesitant to pay €110 for it...
*sigh* And, somehow, the Imperial Knight is a Super-Heavy, while the Wraithknight is a Monstrous Creature rather than a Gargantuan Creature.
Consistency, they doesn't have it.
Edit: Okay, I admit to not having built my own WK yet, so I don't know how badly the size is off.
Medium of Death wrote: I was thinking that when I typed it, yet I'm hoping that GW won't dick me over and make me buy two more books to use the models I really want to buy.
d-usa wrote:I think it would be a stupid move.
But I also think we are talking GW here...
H.B.M.C. wrote:Remember what Az just said: Don't let yourself believe.
GW can almost inspire those old 40k thought for the day like quotes. "Hope begets disappointment", "Clarity is the path to Heresy", "Suffer not the customer to enjoy"
Crimson wrote:I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
I could see a Knight smashing a Wraithknight to the ground with it's weight. It would need to catch it first obviously.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Only GW could answer a question about their own product with "we're not sure..."
Why not wait to release this until the day people can actually get hold of the model, which will allow you to have announced the full Codex, then you can just either not answer it, or simply say there's a matrix in the book?
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
Sounds like Chaos might be in luck, Chaos Freeblades anyone?
Crimson wrote: I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Only GW could answer a question about their own product with "we're not sure..."
Why not wait to release this until the day people can actually get hold of the model, which will allow you to have announced the full Codex, then you can just either not answer it, or simply say there's a matrix in the book?
Christ, unless there isn't.
They probably know exactly what there is--but can't say.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Only GW could answer a question about their own product with "we're not sure..."
Why not wait to release this until the day people can actually get hold of the model, which will allow you to have announced the full Codex, then you can just either not answer it, or simply say there's a matrix in the book?
Christ, unless there isn't.
They probably know exactly what there is--but can't say.
I agree it's dumb, but eh.
Exactly, it is blatantly dumb, the reasons for it's dumbitude are yet to reveal themselves.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Only GW could answer a question about their own product with "we're not sure..."
Why not wait to release this until the day people can actually get hold of the model, which will allow you to have announced the full Codex, then you can just either not answer it, or simply say there's a matrix in the book?
Christ, unless there isn't.
It inspires confidence in the product, doesn't it? At least this means I won't be giving GW any of my money this month.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Only GW could answer a question about their own product with "we're not sure..."
Why not wait to release this until the day people can actually get hold of the model, which will allow you to have announced the full Codex, then you can just either not answer it, or simply say there's a matrix in the book?
Christ, unless there isn't.
It inspires confidence in the product, doesn't it? At least this means I won't be giving GW any of my money this month.
I would say that they are not entirely informing us, so as to build suspense. They would have to be in the know about a unit of their creation, which is only a week away from official release. People actually hate GW enough to actually give this notion any credence?
ace101 wrote: I would say that they are not entirely informing us, so as to build suspense. They would have to be in the know about a unit of their creation, which is only a week away from official release. People actually hate GW enough to actually give this notion any credence?
I wouldn't say hate. I'd go with "give GW exactly enough credence in the rules-writing department for them to have forgotten an Allies matrix."
Ctan_Overlord wrote: Someone posted a rough size comparison between the knight and a Wraithknight on Reddit.
Makes me much more hesitant to pay €110 for it...
*sigh* And, somehow, the Imperial Knight is a Super-Heavy, while the Wraithknight is a Monstrous Creature rather than a Gargantuan Creature.
Consistency, they doesn't have it.
Edit: Okay, I admit to not having built my own WK yet, so I don't know how badly the size is off.
The above grumbles still have validity, though.
That actually might be pretty accurate based on other comparison pics.
A Riptide is basically waist height on a Wraithknight?
Well then, that begs the question. How difficult will it be to stretch those legs 1.5". It certainly looks bulky enough, but far too short. At 8" I planned to purchase one. At 6" for $140.... I'll get two more DF Levi's instead.
Crimson wrote: I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
I imagine it would go something like this:
That made my day, though I now have to clean and mist of tea off my monitor
And I love how they can ally with any army. It's like they answered that question without thinking it through at all. So let me ask, how often do Freeblades find themselves allied with the Great Devourer? Does the Hive Mind pay well? Good benefits for helping to erradicate entire worlds?
On the bright side, now 'Nids can get three super-heavy scoring units that take up no slots. Awesome!
And I love how they can ally with any army. It's like they answered that question without thinking it through at all. So let me ask, how often do Freeblades find themselves allied with the Great Devourer? Does the Hive Mind pay well? Good benefits for helping to erradicate entire worlds?
On the bright side, now 'Nids can get three super-heavy scoring units that take up no slots. Awesome!
While you're figuring that out, see if you can crack whether Freeblades somehow get a contract signed in the Warp before a daemonic incursion, or if they just weigh in mid-battle and hope they get paid.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
The chip on your shoulder barrier? or the have an axe to grind barrier? You have ZERO idea what the releases are ZERO!
H.B.M.C. wrote: No. Let's not be fair. Let's be exceptionally critical. It's a full-priced Codex for (as far as we know) a single unit with a single weapon option and then we have another more expensive 'companion' book for a snigle model. How "big" the unti is is meaningless.
There are many barriers in the natural world - the sound barrier, the speed of light. I propose that GW is close to achieving a new record: Breaking the price barrier, a barrier where you can release two books to cover a single model.
The chip on your shoulder barrier? or the have an axe to grind barrier? You have ZERO idea what the releases are ZERO!
Crimson wrote:I just realised that these things can instakill the Wraithkight with their stomp attacks. I really cannot visualise how that could occur...
I could see a Knight smashing a Wraithknight to the ground with it's weight. It would need to catch it first obviously.
I believe a super heavy walker moves 12" right? Should not be an issue catching it (c:
Looks like my DE might become viable again hehehe
First GW dont make FAQs and when the did they were poorly worded. Now they include FAQs before release saying they don't know. Its an improvement I think.
And I love how they can ally with any army. It's like they answered that question without thinking it through at all. So let me ask, how often do Freeblades find themselves allied with the Great Devourer? Does the Hive Mind pay well? Good benefits for helping to erradicate entire worlds?
On the bright side, now 'Nids can get three super-heavy scoring units that take up no slots. Awesome!
While you're figuring that out, see if you can crack whether Freeblades somehow get a contract signed in the Warp before a daemonic incursion, or if they just weigh in mid-battle and hope they get paid.
The no allies rule for nids probably trumps any other considerations for nids.
CVhaos is easier, just Chaos up some Traitor knights, fairly straight forward really.
I'm now convinced more than ever that GW have abandoned all sense of logic and simply have no idea what they're doing when it comes to writing rules. The detachments should have been a warning, but I wrote them off as extravagances of enthusiasm, a desire to see how far they could push the 'Day 1 DLC' mentality that infests the electronic gaming industry. But no, they were the first real cracks in the facade, the facade that led us to believe that they even give a damn about how this game plays.
Yes, that sounds dramatic, but I've had enough. A whole God-damned full-price Codex for one fething model? One model?
While you're figuring that out, see if you can crack whether Freeblades somehow get a contract signed in the Warp before a daemonic incursion, or if they just weigh in mid-battle and hope they get paid.
The no allies rule for nids probably trumps any other considerations for nids.
CVhaos is easier, just Chaos up some Traitor knights, fairly straight forward really.
Make them Daemonic engines rather than mercs who somehow negotiated a contract?
Hmmm, could work.
I've had a daemonic machina idea percolating for a while as an expansion for my ordinary daemons (Brass Scorpion as a LoW, Decimator engines, Blight Drones, Soul Grinders etc)
So they won't bother doing an FAQ after they've got your money but they will beforehand? WTF?
I understand the enthusiasm for the model, it's really cool, but there's a sick masochism in DEFENDING having to pay 40$ for a codex and possibly 50$ for esecalation on top of 140$ to run ONE MODEL. I mean this is just kinda sick. It makes me feel physically ill.
If you want one as a Necron Knight, convert it to look like some kind of monstrous Necron creation. Give it mechanical tentacles and glowing bits! That would be worth it to play against.
Technically speaking, they just said the knights could ally with anyone, but if its Nids, then for the love of all things grimdark, please convert some giant monster. This is an excellent chance to use that ole' imagination of ours.
Here you go. Something along these lines.
(Destroyah from Godzilla.)
H.B.M.C. wrote: Normally I'd reply, but I'm outsourcing the rebuttal to the chip on my shoulder.
If you had any actual information regarding the codex or the other releases and it was as you say I will be the first to apologize to you and join your band wagon of GW hate.
Right now after 5 or so pages of your whining it just seems a little pathetic... and yes it got to me...
bodazoka wrote: You have ZERO idea what the releases are ZERO!
Yeah, see.. that's the entire problem.
GW decided, for whatever reason, to release the rules after the model. So with their ridiculous need for secrecy until the precise moment of release, that leaves everyone speculating based on what information we have been given.
And given that the information that we have been given has included a mention of only a single model, a website entry that included in incorrect height, and a White Dwarf articule in which they forgot to include key rules... is it really a big surprise that people might be a little pessimistic about this release?
If GW had been hyping this since the model was unveiled, and had told us that a codex was coming that included a whole bunch of options and gear that the Knight could take, and auxilliary units, and a recipe for a nice relaxing Chai Tea brought back from India by Jervis's Great-great-great Grandfather, then peope might have something to be all excited about it.
Instead, we have a model that, while admittedly awesome, has two variants that are just a single weapon swap... and this for some inexplicable reason is enough for an expensive hardcover codex and an even more expensive 'companion' book. We simply haven't been given enough information to assume anything but the worst on this.
Instead, we have a model that, while admittedly awesome, has two variants that are just a single weapon swap... and this for some inexplicable reason is enough for an expensive hardcover codex and an even more expensive 'companion' book. We simply haven't been given enough information to assume anything but the worst on this.
Exactly, does it look good that GW is putting out faq's on a facebook page for a model that isn't even out yet and one of the answer is essentially "who knows?". That doesn't bode well for the direction things are going, it's further evidence that there's no plan and little leadership on the studio side of things. I have this dark feeling that they let everyone go and it's now jervis and a bunch of interns on damage control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: at least at these price points, these will be a rare sight in games!
If that's the silver lining in all of this I'll be happy.
Eh, $40 for 'minor' codex seems about in-line with the current pricing... Sisters and Inquisition were $33 for digital. I'm just glad that they (probably) won't be stringing along a series of WDs with rules, and then put out a codex containing the same stuff plus, say, one extra page you need to play the current rules. That'd grind my gears.
It makes you wonder exactly what the rules writers and web team get up to during the day if they've bungled this release so badly.
At least Jes Goodwin is still doing something right. I don't understand why they haven't released a hardback art book of his beautiful sketches recently.
I think that's the Internet buzzword trifecta right there? I believe there's a prize involved.
Keep up the good work. Or don't. Whatever.
And in any case, if you can understand this:
insaniak wrote:Instead, we have a model that, while admittedly awesome, has two variants that are just a single weapon swap... and this for some inexplicable reason is enough for an expensive hardcover codex and an even more expensive 'companion' book. We simply haven't been given enough information to assume anything but the worst on this.
... then you'll never be able to understand my ire towards this release. I love the model - love it to bits - but what's being done with the model is sickening.
bodazoka wrote: You have ZERO idea what the releases are ZERO!
Yeah, see.. that's the entire problem.
GW decided, for whatever reason, to release the rules after the model. So with their ridiculous need for secrecy until the precise moment of release, that leaves everyone speculating based on what information we have been given.
And given that the information that we have been given has included a mention of only a single model, a website entry that included in incorrect height, and a White Dwarf articule in which they forgot to include key rules... is it really a big surprise that people might be a little pessimistic about this release?
If GW had been hyping this since the model was unveiled, and had told us that a codex was coming that included a whole bunch of options and gear that the Knight could take, and auxilliary units, and a recipe for a nice relaxing Chai Tea brought back from India by Jervis's Great-great-great Grandfather, then peope might have something to be all excited about it.
Instead, we have a model that, while admittedly awesome, has two variants that are just a single weapon swap... and this for some inexplicable reason is enough for an expensive hardcover codex and an even more expensive 'companion' book. We simply haven't been given enough information to assume anything but the worst on this.
I have no problem with the above. I was predominately responding to the hyperbole and the consistency of the hate. I come on here for updates on these knights but I have to sift through gak. It's kind of annoying and it got to me so I responded. You also throw in the fact it's the same people who carry on for almost every release you can now see why I'm pissed.
As to what you posted, maybe we are just different people mate but I see as many positives in this release as there are negatives.. I'm also a glass half full guy so.. when I see a large price for what appears to be only two models I think there must be more to the release than the knights which GW has kept under wraps. As I have said.. if I am wrong then I won't be happy but id prefer to wait than explode my nerd goo bomb all over dakka too early.
I think that's the Internet buzzword trifecta right there? I believe there's a prize involved.
Keep up the good work. Or don't. Whatever.
And in any case, if you can understand this:
insaniak wrote:Instead, we have a model that, while admittedly awesome, has two variants that are just a single weapon swap... and this for some inexplicable reason is enough for an expensive hardcover codex and an even more expensive 'companion' book. We simply haven't been given enough information to assume anything but the worst on this.
... then you'll never be able to understand my ire towards this release. I love the model - love it to bits - but what's being done with the model is sickening.
So you honestly despise them enough to think they have no idea what the rules are for the model when they released it. You realize how stupid that seems? They aren't telling us the rules for the Freeblades/Allies for a reason, not blind stupidity that they forgot to write them .
ace101 wrote: [So you honestly despise them enough to think they have no idea what the rules are for the model when they released it. You realize how stupid that seems? .
It's not the first time the White Dwarf guys havent been told how something was going to work ahead of time.
And yes, doing a preview article showcasing rules that they haven't actually been given yet is indeed a reasonably stupid idea.
ace101 wrote: [So you honestly despise them enough to think they have no idea what the rules are for the model when they released it. You realize how stupid that seems? .
It's not the first time the White Dwarf guys havent been told how something was going to work ahead of time.
And yes, doing a preview article showcasing rules that they haven't actually been given yet is indeed a reasonably stupid idea.
Let alone "forgetting" to include some fairly significant rules you did know about.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
Wait,wait,wait,wait,wait a freakin minute!
Where did you get that FaQ?...
Juste checked the GW site, there was nothing new since October.
ace101 wrote: [So you honestly despise them enough to think they have no idea what the rules are for the model when they released it. You realize how stupid that seems? .
It's not the first time the White Dwarf guys havent been told how something was going to work ahead of time.
And yes, doing a preview article showcasing rules that they haven't actually been given yet is indeed a reasonably stupid idea.
They had some of the rules down, so they obviously had to have seen them to put some of them down. The Q&A is probably leading us on so we'll actually buy the book to see whats inside.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
Wait,wait,wait,wait,wait a freakin minute!
Where did you get that FaQ?...
Juste checked the GW site, there was nothing new since October.
I was wondering the same thing...where did this come from?
And did anybody else notice the repeated reference to the "Knight TITAN"?
Note, Kan qualified the quote with "apparently" so we probably need a citation.
Also, the word Titan doesn't appear in direct relation to Knight in the whole of White Dwarf, so this has either been rewritten by someone who doesn't know the difference, or is made up.
Ctan_Overlord wrote: Someone posted a rough size comparison between the knight and a Wraithknight on Reddit.
Makes me much more hesitant to pay €110 for it...
*snip*
That doesn't even look remotely right.
Its dead on scale compared to the Epic models. Check out the Epic Eldar Fire Gale behind the Crusader compared to the Paladin.
DJGietzen wrote: Just guess, but I think the companion guide will be a collection of things we normally would see in other prints. I will not be surprised if the companion is a collection of things like...
Warlords of the Dark Millennium
Altar of War
Index Astartes
How To Paint...
If you add up the cost if all of those things to create a Codex Dark Angels Companion and it would be in the $75 dollar range. So yeah, A lot of fluff and matbe a few new missions to run with knight in mind. Of course some of that stuff might be in the codex instead...
And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
I agree with the dude from drop bear land. Why not make one book?
Kanluwen wrote: It was posted on a GW store's Facebook page.
Ah, so every chance it is made up redshirt bullgak.
As of this moment, it's being listed as "a quote from Jes Bickham and the White Dwarf team" ...and it was posted during one of the days off that the shop has, so I think it's fairly legitimate.
Thanks for clarifying that source, guys...it really does appear though that GW has dropped the ball a bit with their handling of the background to this model.
On a completely different note...
In the OP, this was mentioned, along with a slew of other weapons options...
"Optional quad-missile array"
Just looking at the model, there is a hole / recess at the very top of the carapace which would be perfect for mounting a launcher for the above-mentioned missiles, ala the original "Knight Warden".
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
I CALL BS ON THIS POST. IMPERIAL KNIGHTS ARE NOT TITANS, GW ISNT AND HASNT REFERED TO THESE AS TITANS...
Just looking at the model, there is a hole / recess at the very top of the carapace which would be perfect for mounting a launcher for the above-mentioned missiles, ala the original "Knight Warden".
Also a good spot for mounting banner poles and the spikes shown in Jes's little Knight sketch in the WD.
Padre wrote: Thanks for clarifying that source, guys...it really does appear though that GW has dropped the ball a bit with their handling of the background to this model.
On a completely different note...
In the OP, this was mentioned, along with a slew of other weapons options...
"Optional quad-missile array"
Just looking at the model, there is a hole / recess at the very top of the carapace which would be perfect for mounting a launcher for the above-mentioned missiles, ala the original "Knight Warden".
Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...
(edited for spelling.)
The issue with that set of info is it is from BoLS, which isn't a great start, and everything from that list we can currently verify is either wrong or simply extraordinarily easy to play the odds on.
I wouldn't be prepared to call all of it nonsense, but again, that we will likely see more weapon options from FW is somewhat of a no brainer, so I wouldn't write it off, but I wouldn't get excited either.
We've seen sprues, so if it was an in-box option, we'd know.
Kanluwen wrote: Here's the Imperial Knight FAQ apparently...
Q: What slot do the Knight Titans take up in the Force Org?
A: Knight Titans do not take up any slot in the Force Org.
Q: Are Knight Titans Lords of War, and fall under the rules for Lords of War for Escalation and Apocalypse?
A: They are not Lords of War, but do use the Superheavy Walker Special Rules.
Q: What Army do they belong to, and who can they Ally with?
A: They are affiliated with either the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. Some Imperial Knights choose to forsake all ties to a noble house. Known as Freeblades, they are masters of their own destiny and can ally with anyone they choose.
Q: Are they Scoring units?
A: Yes, all Imperial Knights are scoring units
Q: How many Knight Titans do I need to field a Primary Detatchment, and how many for an Allied Detatchment?
A: If you are playing as a Primary detatchment then 3-6 and pick one as your warlord, if they are an ally you may have 1-3.
Q: "As a Freeblade, what kind of Ally are they to other armies?"
A: Currently we are not sure, until more information arrives it would be safe to assume they are Allies of Convenience.
Q: "Can they be used in Pre Heresy Armies?"
A: Yes as both Primary and Allied detatchments, as stated before, many Knight Houses pleged oaths of loyalty to the Imperium, Adeptus Mechanicus, or have become Freeblades.
So this is a D weapon carrying, nonLoW choice, super heavy walker, non-FOC placement, scoring unit... So my ork army cannot score with a unit of burnaz on foot, but I can take a knight titan and sit it on an objective instead.
I am curious as to how GW will even come close to stabilizing the game now, it feels like it's jumped the shark since escalation and I don't know how they will get the rabbit back in the box, short of some truly draconian cut to superheavies and such in the next edition to render them all near useless again and put people off taking them... I just don't see anything like a thoughtful or strategic game coming of all these recent shifts, but a sort of putting everything on the table and making 'pew pew' noises.
I am having some difficulty justifying this path to myself as a gamer and someone who maintains that what I do is 'mature, strategic, requires intellect, is competitive etc' when it now just looks like total chaos on the table. What is the point of a FOC? What is the reasoning behind troops scoring when elites can't but a superheavy walker can? Why on earth did someone think that introducing D weaponry to the standard game was going to work or be enjoyable to play?
It all feels adrift atm, I am wondering where we will shore up. I can only think at this time that the release of a streamlined and more 'sensible' game system within 40k, perhaps as a supplement for use in tourneys and such, is the way to bring some clarity back to the game, I really have never seen anything like this in my 27 years using games workshop's systems.
It leaves me deeply concerned over the future of the game, it feels like wild threshing about and desperation.
Again, I still don't understand why it not using the FOC is such a huge problem- it's 3-6 knights as a primary detachment, 1-3 as allies. There is no need for a FOC. Unless you're doing some crazy stuff like picking and choosing what units you're going to field regardless of the codex or allies, it's irrelevant.
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
One of the things I took away from the White Dwarf is a fairly strong delineation between the Imperial and Mechanicus households, and the Freeblades. Whether that translates into distinct rules for each in the book or not, I couldn't say, but of there was room for misinterpretation, that would be it.
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
With GWs recent shift to only releasing rules for units that have models that seems like a rare miss for 40k radio. Unless they are sitting on a ton of Ad Mech minis no one has seen to leak rumors about. Which seems unlikely this close.
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
With GWs recent shift to only releasing rules for units that have models that seems like a rare miss for 40k radio. Unless they are sitting on a ton of Ad Mech minis no one has seen to leak rumors about. Which seems unlikely this close.
Well, we know that there are Ad-Mech aligned houses based on the decals. So "Ad-Mech lists" could simply be Knights with some sort of "chapter traits" based on their allegiance to the AM. It wouldn't mean that the rumor was false, it would just be disappointing...
In general, if not having FOC blows your mind pretend they're troops.
If GW is making an actual book, this could always change, but a two unit to choose from codex strikes me as a quick read and lacking. I had some guesses about their approach, but it seems rather lazy if there isn't more to it all.
I didn't think they'd make them scoring and just thought what ever requisite scoring unit they would have would be quite squishy.
I can only believe FW will do some conversion kits for the knights, but with the things shaping up the way they are I can't really imagine how those will fit in without those new units being given rules to limit their numbers. How quickly will we see armies of just crusader and castellan variants were they made without such restriction... I'm just picturing strength D cannons
aka_mythos wrote: I
If GW is making an actual book, this could always change, but a two unit to choose from codex, strikes me as a quick read and lacking. I had some guesses about their approach, but it seems rather lazy if there isn't more to it all.
If we take a simple look at the current fluff for Knight Households then we can easily expect that a lot of the units in the Codex are already being sold.
The Knight Households are pretty far from just being Knights. Via Lexicanum:
In addition to the Knight war machines, every House had multiple men-at-arms in its employ, resembling Planetary Defence Forces, although possessing a much smaller amount of heavy equipment. On several worlds, artificers and technicians became the most important subjects of the warrior nobility. They maintained the Knight walkers, and over time styled themselves as a priesthood for the half-forgotten mysteries of technology called the Sacristans.
So a Knight Codex could very easily be more than just "two different Knights" if they are planing on using existing Imperial Guard units as men-at-arms forces.
Which would also explain why they are selling a separate sheet of transfers. To put on your "Imperial Guard" units to show that they are part of the Knight Household.
Maybe there also a possibility of having some dual-use units in the future IG release as well.
That's pretty much what I had guessed. Makes a lot of sense which is why I'm nervous GW won't do it. The problem is that for the moment there are no squishy requisite units to balance out these Knights in this particular way.
I am curious as to how GW will even come close to stabilizing the game now, it feels like it's jumped the shark since escalation and I don't know how they will get the rabbit back in the box, short of some truly draconian cut to superheavies and such in the next edition to render them all near useless again and put people off taking them... I just don't see anything like a thoughtful or strategic game coming of all these recent shifts, but a sort of putting everything on the table and making 'pew pew' noises.
I am having some difficulty justifying this path to myself as a gamer and someone who maintains that what I do is 'mature, strategic, requires intellect, is competitive etc' when it now just looks like total chaos on the table. What is the point of a FOC? What is the reasoning behind troops scoring when elites can't but a superheavy walker can? Why on earth did someone think that introducing D weaponry to the standard game was going to work or be enjoyable to play?
It all feels adrift atm, I am wondering where we will shore up. I can only think at this time that the release of a streamlined and more 'sensible' game system within 40k, perhaps as a supplement for use in tourneys and such, is the way to bring some clarity back to the game, I really have never seen anything like this in my 27 years using games workshop's systems.
It leaves me deeply concerned over the future of the game, it feels like wild threshing about and desperation.
Couple your thoughts with the supposed rumor of a 7th edition coming in a few months. If GW does hack and slash Super Heavies from the main ruleset, the backlash would be insane from people dropping $140+ just a few months prior.
I agree with your line of thinking that a good way to squeeze more blood from the stone would be the addition of yet another set of rules that have been stripped down for more "serious" play. Then everyone gets what they want, including GW. Narrative players get big stompy toys that run amok destroying swaths of units, Tourney type players get streamlined competitive rules, and GW gets a dumptruck of cash selling two sets of rules for the same game.
d-usa wrote: Well, we know that there are Ad-Mech aligned houses based on the decals. So "Ad-Mech lists" could simply be Knights with some sort of "chapter traits" based on their allegiance to the AM. It wouldn't mean that the rumor was false, it would just be disappointing...
Going by the apparent lack of customisation on the kit, it could also be as simple as 'Knights from these houses are alligned with the AM' without it actually having any rules associated with it at all.
If they were actually doing separate rules for the different facvtions, I would have expected some different weapon or gear options on the sprues to differentiate the different factions. The fact that they're all the same Knight with different stickers makes rules unlikely.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: Again, I still don't understand why it not using the FOC is such a huge problem- it's 3-6 knights as a primary detachment, 1-3 as allies. There is no need for a FOC. Unless you're doing some crazy stuff like picking and choosing what units you're going to field regardless of the codex or allies, it's irrelevant.
The lack of FOC isn't the problem. It's the fact that they are scoring that people have an issue with.
aka_mythos wrote: If GW is making an actual book, this could always change, but a two unit to choose from codex strikes me as a quick read and lacking. I had some guesses about their approach, but it seems rather lazy if there isn't more to it all.
I think there will be more, but still, a Codex for a single unit is pretty pathetic.
Alpharius wrote: "Tech Guard" (IG) and various support vehicles (Chimeras) and tanks could easily be in there, and help flesh out the Codex.
Maybe.
GW can just as easily be of the mindset: "if that's the sort of army you want Allies!"
Knights for the moment seem like GW trying to both sell an army and supplement in one. We've never had any other codex sold on the merits of allying with it. If this is a complete army in the way it'd be justified by existing fluff... It'd be something like the IG but stripped of all those unique units in exchange for knights.
bodazoka wrote: I apologize for insinuating he is a hater, I will re define my comment to he is an incessant winger. *
He plays football constantly...?
You know what's great for not starting pointless flame-wars? Not dismissing people's opinions as 'whinging'. I would strongly recommend you give it a go. You're entitled to disagree with an opposing opinion on a given topic... but belittling that opinion (such as labelling negative opinions as 'whinging' or equally by just dismissing positive opinions as 'White Knighting'), does nothing positive for a discussion.
Lobukia wrote: please, some one figure out a 15mm DF Levitation to Knight comparison.
Not quite what you are looking for, but it will give you some idea.
Left to right: 6.5" Armorcast Towering Destroyer Knight, DreamForge 5.5" resin Crusader, 'Nid Trygon.
DF plastic 15mm Crusader will be about 3/4" shorter than the resin version.
aka_mythos wrote: If GW is making an actual book, this could always change, but a two unit to choose from codex strikes me as a quick read and lacking. I had some guesses about their approach, but it seems rather lazy if there isn't more to it all.
I think there will be more, but still, a Codex for a single unit is pretty pathetic.
Don't forget the price tag for just that one units Codex.
bodazoka wrote: To the 3 people who decided to quote me. I'm sorry I insulted your mate...
Bwahahaha... HBMC just choked on whatever he's drinking at the suggestion that he and I are mates...
It wouldn't have mattered who you were insulting, your comments were inappropriate. Please refer to Dakka's rules (you can find a link at the bottom of the page) and pay particular attention to #1.
Lobukia wrote: please, some one figure out a 15mm DF Levitation to Knight comparison.
15mm scale Crusader 115mm in relaxed pose 120mm in more upright pose 5mm thick 80mm round base total height without building up the base with an upright pose....... 125mm tall (on base)
GW knight 150mm? who knows... they cant keep it straight.
Lobukia wrote: please, some one figure out a 15mm DF Levitation to Knight comparison.
15mm scale Crusader 115mm in relaxed pose 120mm in more upright pose 5mm thick 80mm round base total height without building up the base with an upright pose....... 125mm tall (on base)
GW knight 150mm? who knows... they cant keep it straight.
The GW staffer that bumbled the first 8" measurement is probably not having the best of times right now.
I hope he doesn't use that same measuring process when trying to court the ladies. He's bound to disappoint a few.
Best,
JBR
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breotan wrote: Hold on a sec... Is that a gun coming out of it's ear?
O.o
timd wrote: Left to right: 6.5" Armorcast Towering Destroyer Knight
Spoiler:
The Epic Eldar Knights were quirky. What worked in Epic scale didn't always translate well into 28mm.
Padre wrote: In the OP, this was mentioned, along with a slew of other weapons options...
"Optional quad-missile array"
Just looking at the model, there is a hole / recess at the very top of the carapace which would be perfect for mounting a launcher for the above-mentioned missiles, ala the original "Knight Warden".
Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...
(edited for spelling.)
It could be that is where the 8 inch slip came from, although that would make it a big launcher!
The poses we have seen this far have been legs akimbo (iconic 40k Titan and not-Titan pose), assuming a bit of variance increasing the height would seem possible. Whack a missile pod on top and you might have 8".
Padre wrote: In the OP, this was mentioned, along with a slew of other weapons options...
"Optional quad-missile array"
Just looking at the model, there is a hole / recess at the very top of the carapace which would be perfect for mounting a launcher for the above-mentioned missiles, ala the original "Knight Warden".
Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not...
(edited for spelling.)
It could be that is where the 8 inch slip came from, although that would make it a big launcher!
Timd pointed out that it's also a perfect mounting point for banners etc.
Maybe the 8 inch slip was a genuine mistake after all?
I would be very psyched if the sprues included a missile pod and the codex had more than just the 2 variants WD showed us, but haven't the sprues been seen yet? Or have they?
Sprues are up on the GW site so I'd assume that the two variants already mentioned are all that can be made from this kit. That isnt to say they couldnt do similar to the Russ Variants (two different kits which make different variants) and come out with a Lancer kit or Baron upgrade sprue etc.
I doubt the sprues would have that much more, IIRC pics of them have already been up on GW's site. I just hope that GW will come up with a heavier and lighter version in the future. I want my Castalans and Lancers!
Observing from the sidelines, and having an interest in AD MECH for my HH Iron Hands as an Allied force, I was quite interested in these models.
It all seems very confused, and the rules expansions are all a bit alien to me because I stopped playing after 6th Edition came out (though I do dabble in the FWHH books and fight stuff in under those Force Orgs etc).
I cannot help feeling, that the ever increasing size of GW 28mm kits is starting to encroach into FW's outsize model territory and conversely FW are producing an awful lot of 28mm scale Infantry in support of the Legion lines.
I'm not sure what GW are doing anymore, the models are welcome, but they seem to lurch from "Cool Release" to "EVEN COOLER RELEASE!" in a gush of Hyperbole but don't seem to know what they are doing or what their strategy is? It seems to be telling that no one has a handle on their projects, managing the development and the release to market? Even their Corporate Comms is all over the place? They just don't seem on top of their game which when you consider they are a FTSE Company with a £5.00 Share price is pretty shocking.
Lobukia wrote: please, some one figure out a 15mm DF Levitation to Knight comparison.
15mm scale Crusader 115mm in relaxed pose 120mm in more upright pose 5mm thick 80mm round base total height without building up the base with an upright pose....... 125mm tall (on base)
GW knight 150mm? who knows... they cant keep it straight.
The GW staffer that bumbled the first 8" measurement is probably not having the best of times right now.
I hope he doesn't use that same measuring process when trying to court the ladies. He's bound to disappoint a few.
Best,
JBR
Yeah, you cant help but feel for that poor guy....Yikes
Just got the WDW with the Knights in. Even though I have just spent £1.94 on a brouchure I'm still very pleased.
It looks a super kit and the end result looks very handsome. To pick up Kroots joke up the page, there is a UM army on the back page with three knights in. Competitive indeed!
I know it's a piss poor measuring technique but a knight scales as 5x a 40mm base with its chin/carapace slanted forward. It seems 8" is the right ball park anyway.
notprop wrote: Just got the WDW with the Knights in. Even though I have just spent £1.94 on a brouchure I'm still very pleased.
It looks a super kit and the end result looks very handsome. To pick up Kroots joke up the page, there is a UM army on the back page with three knights in. Competitive indeed!
I know it's a piss poor measuring technique but a knight scales as 5x a 40mm base with its chin/carapace slanted forward. It seems 8" is the right ball park anyway.
No, GW have changed the website to say 6in now. It could be taller if you are able to build without he Blackadder actor's legs apart stance though.
mwnciboo wrote: Observing from the sidelines, and having an interest in AD MECH for my HH Iron Hands as an Allied force, I was quite interested in these models.
It all seems very confused, and the rules expansions are all a bit alien to me because I stopped playing after 6th Edition came out (though I do dabble in the FWHH books and fight stuff in under those Force Orgs etc).
I cannot help feeling, that the ever increasing size of GW 28mm kits is starting to encroach into FW's outsize model territory and conversely FW are producing an awful lot of 28mm scale Infantry in support of the Legion lines.
I'm not sure what GW are doing anymore, the models are welcome, but they seem to lurch from "Cool Release" to "EVEN COOLER RELEASE!" in a gush of Hyperbole but don't seem to know what they are doing or what their strategy is? It seems to be telling that no one has a handle on their projects, managing the development and the release to market? Even their Corporate Comms is all over the place? They just don't seem on top of their game which when you consider they are a FTSE Company with a £5.00 Share price is pretty shocking.
I can understand what you mean. The last 3-4 months their rule and model releases have been all over the place. It's really gives the impression of they have no clue what they are doing and they are just releasing random cool models now.
I take it the image at the start of this video is what is seen as the new Codex cover? (rather than the one presented in the OP)
From the start of this video mentioning the Crimson Slaughter this accelerated release might have something to do with that upcoming summer campaign that was rumoured. Not that it excuses sloppy presentation, just a point of though.
Man o man, I am really not a fan of larger units and quite happy with painting Space Marines. Every time I painted a dreadnought I thought to myself that this was the last one because it really takes a long time to finish. But these Imperial Knight models look so good, I am very tempted to buy one - perhaps painting it half in a color of a Knightly House and half in the color of my Red Hunters Space Marines. But this would really delay my Heresy stuff ... lets see if I am disciplined enough not to buy a Knight ...
Part of me would love to get a stompa and a knight, line up my crimson fists and orks and just make pew pew noises all day. But the practical issues of storage and moving models that large around puts me off.
bodazoka wrote: To the 3 people who decided to quote me. I'm sorry I insulted your mate...
Bwahahaha... HBMC just choked on whatever he's drinking at the suggestion that he and I are mates...
LOL After all the bad reviews I've given a lot of his writing, I think the same might be said here.
That said, so, we're looking at a possible Knight household army list, which means that we're gonna see Barons and a lot of other crap too, probably coming from FW when they' get folded into 'regular' GW later this year (according to rumor, which I hope is true just due to savings on shipping).
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
One of the things I took away from the White Dwarf is a fairly strong delineation between the Imperial and Mechanicus households, and the Freeblades. Whether that translates into distinct rules for each in the book or not, I couldn't say, but of there was room for misinterpretation, that would be it.
Like many of our kits, the Knight can be built in many different poses. While its legs follow a set method of construction, the torso can be rotated and angled and both arms can be posed at the weapon mount, the elbow and the shoulder, giving you a huge range of motion with them. Even the hydraulics move in and out depending on how you pose your model. Matt Hutson, whose Knight you’ll see in next week’s White Dwarf, had great fun posing and re-posing his Knight, looking for the optimal angle for the weapon arms. In the end he left them unglued, allowing him to pose the Knight in a different position, each battle.
Medium of Death wrote: I take it the image at the start of this video is what is seen as the new Codex cover? (rather than the one presented in the OP)
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
With GWs recent shift to only releasing rules for units that have models that seems like a rare miss for 40k radio. Unless they are sitting on a ton of Ad Mech minis no one has seen to leak rumors about. Which seems unlikely this close.
Well, there are Ad Mech models...they're just FW and technically 30K not 40K. And there is a lot of chatter about FW these days for various reasons. Tech-Guard might not technically *require* any new models as long as the IG range is around.
Still, it'd be odd to get some kind of Ad Mech army inside an "Imperial Knights" codex. Then again, it'd also be odd to get a codex that consists of exactly one kit.
So my takeaway here is that there's nothing to gnash teeth about yet, because who knows WTF we're getting inside this codex.
There are days when you wonder what Games Workshop is thinking, when they don't engage the online community, then there is the last couple of days, and you understand why they consider never looking at their Inboxes ever again. Over the course of the last week, as news of the Imperial Knights came to reality, the Internet has been in furor, nitpicking every possible thing.
The answer to why is simple: jealously.
Now, I am sure everyone has their own personal issues on why they must hate, but one thing is certain, they all want one and finding justifications just seems so difficult! I just wish people would stop making up excuses for not buying this product. I get it, you hate watching everyone salivating for this model; with GW actually creating general excitement it is become too much to bare.
So, let me get this straight at first you had to attack the size of the thing because you cannot wait a week to see the thing in person. Acting like the Imperial Knight is some limited edition model being gone by the end of the month. Really, if size is an issue either read some Freud or wait hot damn minute before you order.
Insanely, GW actually responded to the size issues and changed their website to reflect the Imperial Knight as being 6" not 8" tall. This only added more fuel to the bomb throwers, as proof of some massive GW conspiracy to force us all to pre-order the damn thing on day one. GW should have just let the freak show pass itself out on some opiates.
Now with the rabble's fangs deep inside it was time to move on to the vague rules. Like, what can the Imperial Knight ally with, does it score? Once again GW does the wrong thing; the White Dwarf editor posted on the digital Facebook page and GW's website to answered some questions, while generating a ton more. Causing serial trollers to bellow on every forum condemning the Imperial Knight as the ultimate money grab ever perpetrated by GW. Since god knows if Tyranids were allowed to ally with something unfluffy Wahammer would be dead.
Once again GW should've just waited, since we all know the thing is getting its own codex. At least the people hugging their computers for every bit of succulent GW blood knew. Worse still, are the people posting "customer service" emails from GW with contradicting messages about what can ally with what. The obvious money is on Imperial Knights not being able to ally with Tyranids, but any army prone to hiring mercenaries shouldn't have a problem.
Once again it comes to down patience. If the people still on the fence about the Imperial Knight would wait they would get all the answers they need to make an informed decision. It is like informed consent but, instead the me, me, now, now generation must demand answer!. Sadly, GW isn't that quick to the draw, having only recently leaving the informational Stone Age. It is perhaps GW naiveté causing these problems, because every Internet troll's penchant for exploiting weakness is trademarkable.
These sorts of fights with GW are just so pointless. GW does something great, certain people just cannot handle it, and have to look for fault where none really exists. Yes, GW wants to sell the model and the Imperial Knight is obviously a flagship for them. GW is building a mythos around this one model, with expanded fluff and resources. By next week, as everyone is happily building their Imperial Knights, the rabble will move on to the next palace, which if I had to guess, will be the Imperial Knight codex. Such is the universe now created by the weekly White Dwarf.
I agree with him a bit though. We moan that GW makes rules with no model and call them stupid. Then we moan that releases are slow because they cant make all the models for a codex and they are trying to catch up, then we moan that GW makes models with no rules.
I think they did a lot right with this release. They teased us, got us all worked up, and got a large group of people excited for the new model/unit/codex. Now we moan that we cant get all the info right away hehe.
gorgon wrote: So have the rumors from 40K Radio about Ad Mech lists, etc. in the codex been confirmed to be false?
One of the things I took away from the White Dwarf is a fairly strong delineation between the Imperial and Mechanicus households, and the Freeblades. Whether that translates into distinct rules for each in the book or not, I couldn't say, but of there was room for misinterpretation, that would be it.
"chapter tactics" maybe?
Christ don't say that, I'm an Iron Hands Player but giving these IWND is a step too far!
haters gonna hate, whiners gonna whine. Nothing new in the internet. I usually visit forums to see opinions of people who like the same hobbies as I do. There will be always haters but you just have to skip their posts if you don't like them, or read them and laugh at them. Sometimes they have valuable info but most of the time is just hate.
OT:My group is excited with this release and some are returning to the game because of this release. I will wait a couple of months to buy mine to see if I can get a lower price on it. I don't plan to make it into an army tho, maybe an ally to my space marines or imperial guard. I'm even thinking of getting the damn sister's codex and ally it to my metal nuns.
Re: Tasty's blog- I think it's more a sign of how much goodwill GW has thrown away with it's community than anything else. With other companies, these sorts of things would be forgiven, but when GW has already annoyed you more than once, it's easier to have a go at them than let it slide.
I am getting sick of reading "Haters blah blah" and "White knights blah blah", though. I like reading commentary about the miniatures, not commentary about the commentary (which I am now contributing to, I realise. Oh well.).
I will definitely drop down to the GW to see these things in person. I think the rest of the package offered (ie. the game of 40K as it stands) is enough to put me off buying one, but I will be tempted. I avoided PP's colossals due to the size and concerns over the material on such expensive models, but this thing is in hard plastic and looks great. If I could use it in a game I enjoyed, I would put some cash aside and get one.
Da Boss wrote: Re: Tasty's blog- I think it's more a sign of how much goodwill GW has thrown away with it's community than anything else. With other companies, these sorts of things would be forgiven, but when GW has already annoyed you more than once, it's easier to have a go at them than let it slide.
Except this same 'commentary' has been ongoing for 20 years. So I don't think the 'threw away their goodwill' answer works here.
I know, I know, it's the internet. People bitch on the internet. Still, it is tiresome. (On both sides)
Fishboy wrote: I agree with him a bit though. We moan that GW makes rules with no model and call them stupid. Then we moan that releases are slow because they cant make all the models for a codex and they are trying to catch up, then we moan that GW makes models with no rules.
I think they did a lot right with this release. They teased us, got us all worked up, and got a large group of people excited for the new model/unit/codex. Now we moan that we cant get all the info right away hehe.
Da Boss wrote: Re: Tasty's blog- I think it's more a sign of how much goodwill GW has thrown away with it's community than anything else. With other companies, these sorts of things would be forgiven, but when GW has already annoyed you more than once, it's easier to have a go at them than let it slide.
Except this same 'commentary' has been ongoing for 20 years. So I don't think the 'threw away their goodwill' answer works here.
I know, I know, it's the internet. People bitch on the internet. Still, it is tiresome. (On both sides)
I've been browsing fora related to GW products for about a decade, and I think the general disillusion with GW has never been as high as it currently is.
It is very tiresome though. I try to stay out of it, and definitely out of calling others out for their views.
This release is awesome though. I can't emphasise enough how well they've hooked my inner teenager with this one
Gotta say I like it more than Dreamforge's offering, too, though their kit is superb as well. I just love the style of it. Sometimes they go OTT these days, but this time they stopped just exactly AT the top.
I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
So anybody still not put off about buying Knights have any ideas of colour schemes or themes that they are planning?
I'm thinking of a Mechanicus Alligned force that has worked closely with the Iron Hands and incorporated some of their Heraldry. Probably use the FW brass etch and transfers. Black, White and Steel perhaps with the occasional red armour plate.
Still wondering about how easy it's going to be to leave the "shields" off the weapons. I really hope they aren't integral, but I think they are after studying the GW site pictures. The reason behind leaving them off would be to give them more of a Titan like feel and also to allow for some variety by swapping arms on either side of the Knight without having wonky shield symmetry problems.
Alpharius wrote:Not really, if you think about it!
We kind of are. The book and model aren't even out yet and the world is ending for a lot of posters. As much as I agree that GW's information policy is bad, I think that if they gave out free BJs and Kittens with their previews, people would still go ape-gak until they were actually in stores.
Da Boss wrote:I've been browsing fora related to GW products for about a decade, and I think the general disillusion with GW has never been as high as it currently is.
I would argue that that is impossible to prove. What I can do is find you examples from the late 90's of people making the exact same arguments about why GW is the devil and their games are going down the crapper and how it is the end of times. Heck, you can do it, just set the google filter to 1990-1999.
I think, were I to pick one up, I'd have to go for traditional Mechanicus red.
Of course, I'd also have to make myself an army to go along with it, that's the problem!
Edit: Pretre, of course, you may be right. I am definitely coloured by my own disillusionment with GW. It's nothing severe, I just don't like the prices or the tone of the releases from Blood Angels/Grey Knights in 5th onwards. I don't really "hate" GW, but I am definitely not as enthusiastic as I was.
Medium of Death wrote: I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
This is the problem right here. The rules aren't out yet, we have a release list and don't even know what is in the books and people are saying they are being bungled/rushed. Give it a week.
Medium of Death wrote: I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
This is the problem right here. The rules aren't out yet, we have a release list and don't even know what is in the books and people are saying they are being bungled/rushed. Give it a week.
Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Its the people that claiming that this time... this time it will somehow all be different that I find puzzling.
PhantomViper wrote: Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Right. I think you forgot to put a 'literally' and about ten exclamation points in there.
Alpharius wrote:Not really, if you think about it!
We kind of are. The book and model aren't even out yet and the world is ending for a lot of posters. As much as I agree that GW's information policy is bad, I think that if they gave out free BJs and Kittens with their previews, people would still go ape-gak until they were actually in stores.
Ah, but what if those kittens have been microwaved, hmm? Plenty of justifiable outrage then.
I'd like to believe that there's a purpose behind FW's recent Ad Mech push. But then that could still be completely unrelated to the Knights codex...instead being just FW pushing Ad Mech to collectors who've had their appetite whetted by the Knight kit.
We really aren't going to know until we start getting book scans or see for ourselves, so I dunno how this is something to get worked up over right now.
Ordered mine from Darksphere. Will likely end up painting him to match my Iron Hands on the basis of liberating a knight protected colony during the siege and securing a mutual alliance going forwards.
PhantomViper wrote: Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Right. I think you forgot to put a 'literally' and about ten exclamation points in there.
Feel free to provide examples to support your claims, I won't hold my breath, I promise.
Medium of Death wrote: I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
This is the problem right here. The rules aren't out yet, we have a release list and don't even know what is in the books and people are saying they are being bungled/rushed. Give it a week.
Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Its the people that claiming that this time... this time it will somehow all be different that I find puzzling.
They want internal justification for spending 140$ on a model that is similar in size to a trygon that is half the price :p
PhantomViper wrote: Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Right. I think you forgot to put a 'literally' and about ten exclamation points in there.
Feel free to provide examples to support your claims, I won't hold my breath, I promise.
Every single rule in 6th edition has literally been bungled and/or rushed, it was a slap in the face!!!! It isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say the same thing will happen to these ones... OMG, Ward, Fineco$t, price rises.
Not sure which example you were looking for, but I think the above shows how you could have been more over the top.
As for good rules, there are plenty of them. I happen to enjoy most of 6th edition, so from my perspective (and I'm guessing others) most of it has not been bungled.
PhantomViper wrote: Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Right. I think you forgot to put a 'literally' and about ten exclamation points in there.
Feel free to provide examples to support your claims, I won't hold my breath, I promise.
Every single rule in 6th edition has literally been bungled and/or rushed, it was a slap in the face!!!! It isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say the same thing will happen to these ones... OMG, Ward, Fineco$t, price rises.
Not sure which example you were looking for, but I think the above shows how you could have been more over the top.
As for good rules, there are plenty of them. I happen to enjoy most of 6th edition, so from my perspective (and I'm guessing others) most of it has not been bungled.
Agreed, 6th has been fun for me and the group i play with (we aren't in the competitive 40k crowd so no hating or bitching here). I also can't wait for the release of the Knights. They look cool, and seem to be fluff and crunch wise, to be the Imperium steping their game up with monster mash becoming more common (aka the counter to WKs and Riptides). Sounds fluffy to me with 40k constantly T-1 minute to midnight.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I am curious as to how GW will even come close to stabilizing the game now, it feels like it's jumped the shark since escalation and I don't know how they will get the rabbit back in the box, short of some truly draconian cut to superheavies and such in the next edition to render them all near useless again and put people off taking them... I just don't see anything like a thoughtful or strategic game coming of all these recent shifts, but a sort of putting everything on the table and making 'pew pew' noises.
I am having some difficulty justifying this path to myself as a gamer and someone who maintains that what I do is 'mature, strategic, requires intellect, is competitive etc' when it now just looks like total chaos on the table. What is the point of a FOC? What is the reasoning behind troops scoring when elites can't but a superheavy walker can? Why on earth did someone think that introducing D weaponry to the standard game was going to work or be enjoyable to play?
It all feels adrift atm, I am wondering where we will shore up. I can only think at this time that the release of a streamlined and more 'sensible' game system within 40k, perhaps as a supplement for use in tourneys and such, is the way to bring some clarity back to the game, I really have never seen anything like this in my 27 years using games workshop's systems.
It leaves me deeply concerned over the future of the game, it feels like wild threshing about and desperation.
Yes, this basically. The more things GW release for 40K, the less interested I am about going back to it. I've never been into the competitive scene, but I still like playing games where there is at least a feel that both sides are on an equal footing.
The kits nice. To rich for my blood though. Our play group doesnt use any of the expansions or the data slates sooo paying 140 for a model that'll just sit in a n shelf for me is to high. I'd rather fill out my ultra marines more.
is a good kit though and I'm pleasantly surprised by the paint jobs on them. Very nice.
PhantomViper wrote: Every single rule in 6th edition has been bungled and / or rushed, it really isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say that the same thing will happen to these ones...
Right. I think you forgot to put a 'literally' and about ten exclamation points in there.
Feel free to provide examples to support your claims, I won't hold my breath, I promise.
Every single rule in 6th edition has literally been bungled and/or rushed, it was a slap in the face!!!! It isn't a very big stretch of the imagination to say the same thing will happen to these ones... OMG, Ward, Fineco$t, price rises.
Not sure which example you were looking for, but I think the above shows how you could have been more over the top.
As for good rules, there are plenty of them. I happen to enjoy most of 6th edition, so from my perspective (and I'm guessing others) most of it has not been bungled.
Just realized that I said "rules", when I meant "rules release", and for some of you more literally minded folks apparently it is a big jump to arrive to that interpretation from the context of the discussion.
And I'm glad that you like 6th so much, it really is the bestest edition ever, making GW bucket loads of cash and grabbing new players everywhere! Keep manning those walls pretre, but don't forget to take some mortar with you while you're there because the cracks in them are beginning to be a bit big...
Just realized that I said "rules", when I meant "rules release", and for some of you more literally minded folks apparently it is a big jump to arrive to that interpretation from the context of the discussion.
And I'm glad that you like 6th so much, it really is the bestest edition ever, making GW bucket loads of cash and grabbing new players everywhere! Keep manning those walls pretre, but don't forget to take some mortar with you while you're there because the cracks in them are beginning to be a bit big...
I understood what you were saying and I'll say the same about rules release if you want it clearer. I have been happy with the rules releases as well. But feel free to discount my opinion (and the others with positive opinions) because we're 'manning the walls'.
What would be cool is if the "Companion Guide" had a seperate minigame in it for detailed mech combat ala Adeptus Titanicus (only less confusing), or Battletech.
Yes, yes, hope is the first step to hemorrhoids, or however the saying goes...
Medium of Death wrote: I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
So anybody still not put off about buying Knights have any ideas of colour schemes or themes that they are planning?
I'm thinking of a Mechanicus Alligned force that has worked closely with the Iron Hands and incorporated some of their Heraldry. Probably use the FW brass etch and transfers. Black, White and Steel perhaps with the occasional red armour plate.
Still wondering about how easy it's going to be to leave the "shields" off the weapons. I really hope they aren't integral, but I think they are after studying the GW site pictures. The reason behind leaving them off would be to give them more of a Titan like feel and also to allow for some variety by swapping arms on either side of the Knight without having wonky shield symmetry problems.
If they can actually go with any army as rumored I plan to convert a few up for my DE. I have a freind already looking for a pirate hat to add one to his orcs hehe.
I play Tyranids, Eldar and Tau. Almost nothing Imperial interests me. But I acknowledge that this model fits the Imperial aestetique and many people like it.
I just don't want super heavies and titan sized models in standard games, not even Riptides and Wraithknights. If the game is just about buying and fielding the most Apocalypse-sized units, with ordinary armies just watching helplessly, it isn't a game anymore.
pretre wrote:
Medium of Death wrote: I'd say the Knight model shows that we are an easy group to please, the bad bit came when the rules were seemingly being bungled and/or rushed.
This is the problem right here. The rules aren't out yet, we have a release list and don't even know what is in the books and people are saying they are being bungled/rushed. Give it a week.
The rules are out officially, as officially they are included in the WD. Minus some things they "forgot".
I'm not surprised they forgot to include such trivial information as FoC, Warlord designation, and scoring. It should be painfully obvious by now that WD editors don't actually play 40K and are unfamiliar with its rules (so are FW guys), so how would they know those things were at all important?
I fully expect the Imperial Knights codex to contain rules for a single unit with two weapon options along with several dozen pages of fluff waffle.
Unknown source, Natfka attributed it to DietOfLiquor on Bols Lounge, but nothing in the link he provides. Sounds like WD text:
The Imperial Knights Companion is a spectacular, large-format tome that delves deep into the orgins and history of the Imperial Knights, the culture of their noble houses and their complex relationships with the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus.
But DietOfLiquor provides this pic:
Horncastle on Bols Lounge wrote:I got the new White Dwarf yesterday (I love my FLGS) Knights of the Imperium is a novella. The companion guide is extended fluff and heraldry, etc.
Da Boss wrote: Re: Tasty's blog- I think it's more a sign of how much goodwill GW has thrown away with it's community than anything else. With other companies, these sorts of things would be forgiven, but when GW has already annoyed you more than once, it's easier to have a go at them than let it slide.
Except this same 'commentary' has been ongoing for 20 years. So I don't think the 'threw away their goodwill' answer works here.
I know, I know, it's the internet. People bitch on the internet. Still, it is tiresome. (On both sides)
When GW stop doing things worthy of criticism, people will stop criticising them for said things. You can pretend people have always disliked the company to the same levels as today if you like, but the evidence doesn't back your position; no matter how many examples you can find on google from a Friday afternoon in January 1993, the complaints were less frequent, and more than that they existed in the context of a company that was growing every year and releasing products that people still play today and wish the company would return to; today they lose more customers every year, there is serious competition gaining ground on them, and more than that, regardless of whether you think complaints made in the past were justified, they are justified now.
I was really excited by this release, all GW had to do to make me and the vast majority of other people happy was put out an awesome model at a reasonable price with rational rules, I was set to grab a whole Household of these if those extremely basic criteria were met, but yet again they have drunk their own kool-aid and we get an awesome model at a ludicrous price and questionable rules, all wrapped up in their now-standard bumbling failure of a marketing strategy(so far as it even exists at all).
What I never get is why "if it bothers you so much feel free to not read the topic" seems to apply to everyone in the universe apart from people who don't want to hear GW's good name besmirched; as tiresome as you find it to read people's genuine grievances with GW's behaviour, believe me when I say that pales in comparison to how tiresome it is to see the same faces in every new release thread playing Opinion Police.
Horncastle on Bols Lounge wrote:I got the new White Dwarf yesterday (I love my FLGS) Knights of the Imperium is a novella. The companion guide is extended fluff and heraldry, etc.
Has anyone else noticed however that this is a hardback with roughly the same page count as most of the supliments they put out yet is priced at 33 euros instead of 39? Thats an actual price reduction of 6 euros compared to what they have been doing so far. Maybe they drunk to much of the GW Kool-aid and forgot their own price points?
NickOnwezen wrote: Has anyone else noticed however that this is a hardback with roughly the same page count as most of the supliments they put out yet is priced at 33 euros instead of 39? Thats an actual price reduction of 6 euros compared to what they have been doing so far. Maybe they drunk to much of the GW Kool-aid and forgot their own price points?
I assume because it's not going to have any rules beyond a few Knights, the rules of which are already in WD, so even GW decided it wasn't worth that much.
NickOnwezen wrote: Has anyone else noticed however that this is a hardback with roughly the same page count as most of the supliments they put out yet is priced at 33 euros instead of 39? Thats an actual price reduction of 6 euros compared to what they have been doing so far. Maybe they drunk to much of the GW Kool-aid and forgot their own price points?
obviously the guy in charge of typing the description of the knight was given a second chance at entering in the prices , he made the price smaller because last time he made the size too large and got in trouble I'm sure GW will change the price to 44euros shortly.
edit: freaky double post, can a mod edit one of these two out please? Never mind, it fixed itself.
azreal13 wrote: Hang on, does that text at the bottom of the pic say
"Imperial Knights Limited Edition: Online Only"
I assume they mean you can order it online, it wouldn't be a limited edition digital download would it?
I can almost guarantee that just means you can only buy it from the GW webstore. It will be hardcover and slightly fancier than the 'standard' hardcover book.
I have been a GW fanboy since the 80s, and despite the fact that I still love their models...and still love many of their older games (Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Man O War, Epic, Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic...all of which are no longer produced -Nor supported in any way/shape/or form) the current flagship games do not have that much appeal for me any longer...especially 40K. As someone who has invested literally thousands of dollars into product from this company over the last 25+ years, I feel that in the last 10 years (sitting roughly in their target market), I have been taken for a ride and been taken advantage of. I understand that these are luxury items (the whole exotic car metaphor is not lost on me), but with the constant price hikes, and more recently the blatantly badly written/balanced rules, I actually feel insulted by their indifference and corporate greed. They used to have global narrative campaigns, organized tournaments with prize support, the out-rider program, several convention events across the US that catered to competitive players, casual story driven players, and painters/hobbyists alike. Sometimes, when I see people denouncing me for my somewhat jaded outlook...I begin to question if my feelings are unfounded...or perhaps exaggerated to a point...maybe I feel too entitled? But then I look back over the steps this company has taken, the choices it has made, the way it has chosen to maximize profit with exponentially-decreasing regard for customer good will...and I realize I am not crazy. I know I'm not disillusioned because my sentiments are validated by my fellow local gamer friends, and by multitudes of seemingly rational people on the internet.
I know it sounds silly and petty, and a little immature...but sometimes I feel like my best friend of 20 years has slowly been stealing from me behind my back, and sometime in the last few years I've woken up to find he's drugged me, emptied my bank account and ran off with my wife in my 72' MGB roadster.
Despite all of this, I still cannot bring myself to sell my 5+ 40k armies and 4+ fantasy armies.
The topical relevance of this long diatribe is this. I will be buying this model. Not for use in any game. And not in the numbers (say 5 or so) that I may have some years ago. But it does spark that nostalgic feeling I get when I think back to the days of Epic and Titan Legions, where everything in White Dwarf was useful and interesting to read, and all things were right in the world.
Yodhrin wrote: You can pretend people have always disliked the company to the same levels as today if you like, but the evidence doesn't back your position; no matter how many examples you can find on google from a Friday afternoon in January 1993, the complaints were less frequent, and more than that they existed in the context of a company that was growing every year and releasing products that people still play today and wish the company would return to; today they lose more customers every year, there is serious competition gaining ground on them, and more than that, regardless of whether you think complaints made in the past were justified, they are justified now.
Citation needed for pretty much this entire thing. You have no numbers for how many people like/dislike the company now or then, nor even for how many people play the game/leave the game now and then. Does it feel like more complaints right now? Sure, but that's because it is now, not then. Everything feels worse right now.
What I never get is why "if it bothers you so much feel free to not read the topic" seems to apply to everyone in the universe apart from people who don't want to hear GW's good name besmirched; as tiresome as you find it to read people's genuine grievances with GW's behaviour, believe me when I say that pales in comparison to how tiresome it is to see the same faces in every new release thread playing Opinion Police.
I have no problem with seeing GW's name besmirched every month. I agree that GW makes a lot of mistakes. I like to read the new release topics and don't mind seeing reasonable criticism about those releases. 50 pages of 'Lol finecost', 'omg dinozords', '6th edition is worse than anything in the history of ever' is a little much though.
pretre wrote:
This is the problem right here. The rules aren't out yet, we have a release list and don't even know what is in the books and people are saying they are being bungled/rushed. Give it a week.
The rules are out officially, as officially they are included in the WD. Minus some things they "forgot".
No, the WD version of the rules are out. The codex itself and the real rules aren't out yet. Which is what I was talking about.
Also we have to remember that 10 to 20 years ago there was not the same level of internet community there is now. Not as much connection. I remember when it was just portent for all I knew.
Now there are lots of blogs, we receive rumors and pictures much earlier than I remember.
Combine that with the tendency for people to react super negatively from initial impressions(which is the most important impression) we are coloring entire releases on much less complete information and that coloring is carrying through unless something drastic happens. I am looking forward to seeing thte complete rules and fluff in the imperial knights codex(digital edition for the win). and I already ordered two(they are my incentive for if I get all my painting done in time for adepticon)
So it really is a matter of them thinking that we're just too dumb to just add 3 or 5 to the cart.
It's a psychological thing. Some people will see the bundles and be swayed to buy 3 or 5 if they were looking to get 2 or 4 instead. The easier you make it for people to spend money (especially on the internet) the more they will spend. Ever bought $500+ of models in one hit? It's a lot easier online where it's not "real" money since it's just numbers in your bank account as opposed to walking in with $500 cash in your hand and having to physically part with it....
I really hope that Codex has more than just what is represented in the kit. The fact that it is slightly cheaper than a regular codex is worrying me though.
Hope they've got another Knight kit up their sleeves with a two more ranged weapons and a variant chainsword.
Medium of Death wrote: I really hope that Codex has more than just what is represented in the kit. The fact that it is slightly cheaper than a regular codex is worrying me though.
Hope they've got another Knight kit up their sleeves with a two more ranged weapons and a variant chainsword.
On a side note, FW has said they are making alternate parts already.
Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long.
b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules
c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules
d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play
e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking
f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
Medium of Death wrote: I really hope that Codex has more than just what is represented in the kit. The fact that it is slightly cheaper than a regular codex is worrying me though.
Hope they've got another Knight kit up their sleeves with a two more ranged weapons and a variant chainsword.
On a side note, FW has said they are making alternate parts already.
Can't wait to see the price tag on those my $140 model is now a $300 dollar model
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long.
b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules
c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules
d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play
e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking
f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
g. That doesn't look anything like a Knight Titan. No thanks!
Sorry, if you show up with a doll you stole from your daughter/sister and tried to tell me it was a super heavy I'd refuse to play a game with you. Ever...
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long.
b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules
c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules
d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play
e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking
f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
I wouldn't mind at all. But then again, I don't even mind cardboard boxes with 'warhound' written on them, so I can't really speak for others, I suppose...
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
Well aren't we a serious bunch.
"My toy soldiers refuse to play against your doll because I don't think you're taking the business of playing with toys seriously enough!"
I'd totally play against that. I don't have any qualms with meltaing a doll in the back.
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long.
b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules
c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules
d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play
e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking
f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long. b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
g. That doesn't look anything like a Knight Titan. No thanks!
Worse than that, it doesn't look like it's supposed to be in any Imperial faction nor any 40k army, ever. You'd be better off using a can of coke on a flyer base.
I'd be happy if you just used a paper model. Print off a picture of the Knight, mount it on some card, stick it on a base. That'd be ok with me, at least temporarily as a proxy while you decide if you're going to buy one. Just keep that.... thing... off the table, lol.
I had finished "Mechanicum" a few months ago and wondered when we would see a knight model. I really like the models and this would be a great supplement to my mechanicum allied detachment I am planning. However for me the price point is too high. I spent roughly the same amount on my Eldar Wraithknight and have enjoyed bringing it to games. This just seems like too much for a model of its size. Plus I am spending money on other games now that are at a much better price point anyway. Having said that I would have most definitely bought this at the $85 price point.
Medium of Death wrote: I really hope that Codex has more than just what is represented in the kit. The fact that it is slightly cheaper than a regular codex is worrying me though.
Hope they've got another Knight kit up their sleeves with a two more ranged weapons and a variant chainsword.
On a side note, FW has said they are making alternate parts already.
Medium of Death wrote: I really hope that Codex has more than just what is represented in the kit. The fact that it is slightly cheaper than a regular codex is worrying me though.
Hope they've got another Knight kit up their sleeves with a two more ranged weapons and a variant chainsword.
On a side note, FW has said they are making alternate parts already.
wufai wrote: Question for you guys. If I show up at your FLGS this week prior to the Imperial Knight release with a primary Dark Angel army, a sub-in model of ONE Imperial Knight, and ask you if you would like a friendly game to try out the IK with the pt cost and limited rules from WD and Facebook. Would you play that game with me? or would you say no becuase:
a. That's not the offical Model, its 1.5" too high and the base is 1" too long.
b. The rules are broken, I will never play with broken rules
c. The rules are not official, I will never play with stand-in rules
d. I have no superheavies, so its an unfair game, sorry I won't play
e. One look and I can see your list is broken/WAAC/just plain better then mine, I know I would lose just by looking
f. All of the above?
Want to ask becuase I want to gauge the kind of people I might run into at a FLGS, I don't play much these days but willing to try get more games in with models. I would hate being laugh at by doing something usual players might shun on.
Hey man you have a good taste in waifus, so I would play it!
DJGietzen wrote: Just guess, but I think the companion guide will be a collection of things we normally would see in other prints. I will not be surprised if the companion is a collection of things like...
Warlords of the Dark Millennium
Altar of War
Index Astartes
How To Paint...
If you add up the cost if all of those things to create a Codex Dark Angels Companion and it would be in the $75 dollar range. So yeah, A lot of fluff and matbe a few new missions to run with knight in mind. Of course some of that stuff might be in the codex instead...
And why wouldn't you put those things in the Codex? Right now we have an entire full-priced Codex that has a single unit with 1 weapon option... and then a supplement for that book on the same day. What about this required two books?
Because none of those things are normally in a codex. The codex usually has a 60% content of fluff, 15% content of showcase, 20% content rules and 5% content of reference. I expect that to hold true here with a lot of back story on the kngiht titans and the houses and a glossed over history of the 40k universe before the rise of the imperium of man. I expect lots of pritty photos of these things in the middle of tables. I expect an armory that explains not only how super heavy walkers work but how D weapons work. I mean how many pages do they use to explain that stuff in the other two book? They will repeat it here. Even though the unit has very few options there are a lot of things that need full explanations.
Knight Lancer & Knight Baron with battle cannon (check) & Power Lance
Knight Crusader with shoulder-mounted Quake Cannon & twin-linked Lascannon
Knight Castellan with shoulder-mounted Quake Cannon & multi-barrelled Autocannon
Knight Warden has shock lance & choice from above
Knight Errants also use power fists...
So, I can see a GW $40-60 "sprue" having a lance, powerfist, quake cannon, lascannons, other bits, & autocannons that can attach to the existing $140 IK kit...
OR
FW offering each weapon as a $20 "part"
Pretty certain that'll happen.... (not sure of price points or when)....
The GW Imperial Knights look to be real winners. You didn't think Forgeworld would stay away did you?
Sources say Forgeword is already well into development of a variety of Imperial Knight add-ons and variant kits.
Look for them to begin with easy to produce weapon add-on kits including:
-Knight Inferno Cannon
-Knight Plasma Cannon
-Knight Power Fist
Then they will move into more elaborate add-on kits including:
Wait for it...
-Chaos Knight
Lancers, Castellans, and Barons would seem like low-hanging fruit in the add-on kit department for Forgeworld but there is no chatter so far.
Damn - that means I'll be buying at least 2 - 1 now for my DG 30K army &1 for my 40KDG army. My poor bank account
Don't get too excited, the source is less accurate than 50%
It is more likely he is just playing percentages at this point, and while I agree with the general idea of alternate armament kits, don't get too invested in any specifics.
pretre wrote: We kind of are. The book and model aren't even out yet and the world is ending for a lot of posters. .
We're not, but the perpetuation of this sort of hyperbole gives the impression that we are.
Nobody thinks the world is ending. People do have an issue with the way this release has been handled, and different people have different aspects of it that the see favourably or not.
But heck, even if we are hard to please, is that really our fault? Is it unreasonable for us to expect the self proclaimed market leader to produce both a good model and good rules at the same time, and to have planned out their release marketing to the extent that they weren't giving out incorrect information, or 'forgetting' to include bits?
No, the world isn't ending because the knight is 6" tall instead of 8". Or because White Dwarf botched their preview of the model's rules. Or because a model for a miniatures wargame is for some inexplicable reason being released a week before the rules for the aforementioned model.
But those things do make GW look like a bunch of amateurs, rather than the world's premier miniatures gaming company.
pretre wrote: We kind of are. The book and model aren't even out yet and the world is ending for a lot of posters. .
We're not, but the perpetuation of this sort of hyperbole gives the impression that we are.
Nobody thinks the world is ending. People do have an issue with the way this release has been handled, and different people have different aspects of it that the see favourably or not.
But heck, even if we are hard to please, is that really our fault? Is it unreasonable for us to expect the self proclaimed market leader to produce both a good model and good rules at the same time, and to have planned out their release marketing to the extent that they weren't giving out incorrect information, or 'forgetting' to include bits?
No, the world isn't ending because the knight is 6" tall instead of 8". Or because White Dwarf botched their preview of the model's rules. Or because a model for a miniatures wargame is for some inexplicable reason being released a week before the rules for the aforementioned model.
But those things do make GW look like a bunch of amateurs, rather than the world's premier miniatures gaming company.
Here's an unboxing. Looks like the arms will be stuck to having to use the shields to work, which is slightly annoying as I wanted to leave them off to allow for swapping arm sides.
Medium of Death wrote: Here's an unboxing. Looks like the arms will be stuck to having to use the shields to work, which is slightly annoying as I wanted to leave them off to allow for swapping arm sides.
Not sure what shields you mean.
Looks like a couple of points you could easily saw through and magnetise for easy swapping.
insaniak wrote: Nobody thinks the world is ending. People do have an issue with the way this release has been handled, and different people have different aspects of it that the see favourably or not.
But heck, even if we are hard to please, is that really our fault? Is it unreasonable for us to expect the self proclaimed market leader to produce both a good model and good rules at the same time, and to have planned out their release marketing to the extent that they weren't giving out incorrect information, or 'forgetting' to include bits?
No, the world isn't ending because the knight is 6" tall instead of 8". Or because White Dwarf botched their preview of the model's rules. Or because a model for a miniatures wargame is for some inexplicable reason being released a week before the rules for the aforementioned model.
But those things do make GW look like a bunch of amateurs, rather than the world's premier miniatures gaming company.
Not having a go just curios and so I'm up to speed:
Who exactly got the size of the model wrong?
Which rules were botched in the WD?
I was under the impression the rules are released in the WD? would that not count as releasing the rules before the model?
bodazoka wrote: Not having a go just curios and so I'm up to speed:
Who exactly got the size of the model wrong? Which rules were botched in the WD? I was under the impression the rules are released in the WD? would that not count as releasing the rules before the model?
GW's own product page had the size incorrectly listed as 8" at first. The WD rules made no mention of which armies could take them as allies. Also didn't mention how an army of them would actually work (i.e. do you get a warlord, are they scoring, etc.).
I'm a bit confused on how there's going to be a codex with only two units. Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
bodazoka wrote: Who exactly got the size of the model wrong?
Which rules were botched in the WD?
I was under the impression the rules are released in the WD? would that not count as releasing the rules before the model?
The GW website originally had it listed as 8". It was later changed.
And as per the quote posted earlier in this thread from the Editor of White Dwarf, they 'forgot' to include a mention of what to do for a Warlord, that the Knights are all scoring, or how they fit into the FOC... and didn't even address at all just who can take them as allies.
We also still have no idea if there are separate rules for Mechanicum or Freeblade Knights. Or just why an army with 2 units needs a 64-page codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
But those things do make GW look like a bunch of amateurs, rather than the world's premier miniatures gaming company.
And that is, I think, the bone of contention for everyone...
GW-supporters are disappointed, and frustrated that GW are doing themselves a disservice.
GW-detractors are further vindicated in their opinion of GW, despite most of the posters / detractors probably just wanting the company to lift its' game.
Those who are neutral either way just see GW "screwing the pooch", and are more inclined to go to Infinity or Warmachine...
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: I'm a bit confused on how there's going to be a codex with only two units. Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
Don't take FoC slots, choose one of them to be the Warlord and they are all scoring, they do not take a Lord of War slot either, can be played has a functional Primary detachement from 3 to 6 Models, and up to 3 in Allies detachement.
But those clarifications came on the Facebook page of WD editors, where there also was a puny FaQ where they basicly told" We have no idea at the moment, we will see in the futur" in one of the answers about Level of Allies( BB?, AoC? Desperate?).
So yeah they missed pretty big on this one, even if people are hyped about the knight Itself, this release was not proffesionaly handeled, and the fact that the WD gives no info about what we might expect in the dex, and why 2 models with half their rules in WD need 64pages Codex for 41$...
If it was a dataslate of 15$, i think people would have swallowed it a bit better, now it might be full of cool stuff, or full of gak..., who the heck knows?
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: I'm a bit confused on how there's going to be a codex with only two units. Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
Do we know for sure that the codex only has 2 units (the 2 knight variants)? Was that posted somewhere in here that there are no infantry / etc in the book?
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: I'm a bit confused on how there's going to be a codex with only two units. Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
Do we know for sure that the codex only has 2 units (the 2 knight variants)? Was that posted somewhere in here that there are no infantry / etc in the book?
Nope!
And I really hope there are rules that can fully represent a Knight Household, with all Attendants in Attendance!
insaniak wrote: I'm not really seeing the point of buying the White Dwarf for incomplete rules...
You can see the pictures of the models online, and you still need to wait for the codex in order to field them... so why buy the magazine just to read what has already been posted here...?
I'd buy it for the printed pictures for future painting reference, etc. Sadly, it's likely to be sold out before I get to my S-FLGS due to having the rules in it.
The idea that they were deliberately publishing incomplete rules in order to sell a later book at last made some sort of sense. Finding out that they just 'forgot' to include key rules in the article... And in their haste to correct that oversight (on Facebook...? Seriously?) they still haven't bothered to cover who can actually take them as allies... That's just sad.
Poor form, GW, poor form.
Well, look at it this way:
Do you think any Chaos players might have bought one (or two, three, etc) of these models before finding out if they can legally take knights in their army/as allies?
The idea that they were deliberately publishing incomplete rules in order to sell a later book at last made some sort of sense. Finding out that they just 'forgot' to include key rules in the article... And in their haste to correct that oversight (on Facebook...? Seriously?) they still haven't bothered to cover who can actually take them as allies... That's just sad.
Poor form, GW, poor form.
Well, look at it this way:
Do you think any Chaos players might have bought one (or two, three, etc) of these models before finding out if they can legally take knights in their army/as allies?
It's a good model, I'm not exactly blown away with it but still want two chaos ones, one Nurgle and one kitbashed with fiends kit. Or riding a Maulerfiend heh.
What I dislike about knights is the curved shapes, I prefer Imperial stuff crude and boxy, I hate the barrel like dreadnought for example (contemptor?). At least it works for showing PP how much superior GW models are, being designed as something very comparable. Quite deserved imo seeing how much in Warmachine was ripped from 40k.
Plumbumbarum wrote: It's a good model, I'm not exactly blown away with it but still want two chaos ones, one Nurgle and one kitbashed with fiends kit. Or riding a Maulerfiend heh.
What I dislike about knights is the curved shapes, I prefer Imperial stuff crude and boxy, I hate the barrel like dreadnought for example (contemptor?). At least it works for showing PP how much superior GW models are, being designed as something very comparable. Quite deserved imo seeing how much in Warmachine was ripped from 40k.
Knights look different because they were developed by humans seperately from Terra for thousands of years before reunited. The knights are from older technology, as are contemptors, according to background information. You will notice preheresy stuff looks different from "40k"stuff, because according to fluff the pre crusade and preherresy tech was more advanced, but lost after the heresy... The more boxy looks came about once everything went to heck.
Official announcement for the Imperial Knight Codex still says, it includes all rules to take them as part of an Imperial army or as an army of their own.
HisDivineShadow wrote: I have no idea why you linked a wiki page that has basically zero information. Corroborating your statement or otherwise.
My guess would be this part...
"The arms of House Mortimer are a purple Tyranid bioform on a field of yellow."
Goodness, I am reaching deep into my memory, I played 40k and epic since it all started. House Mortimer, the archfather got involved with a genestealer cult... there was fluff in titan rulebooks, 1st and 2nd tyranid edition codexes....
Old, old fluff speaks of them being involved in genestealer cults...
I have no idea why you linked a wiki page that has basically zero information. Corroborating your statement or otherwise.
hrm only information is the little line about the badge - "The arms of House Mortimer are a purple Tyranid bioform on a field of yellow. ", so its defiantly Tyranid, but why? Anyone else have any literature on house Mortimer?
Also does anyone know what the pilots actually look like? I know they're human, but are we talking about hardwired into the Knight? or psychic link?
insaniak wrote: Nobody thinks the world is ending. People do have an issue with the way this release has been handled, and different people have different aspects of it that the see favourably or not.
Obviously, that was hyperbole, but it isn't far off the mark. There are certainly people who have reasonable grievances and then there are people who are saying that the rules are crap or that it is a book with two units without seeing the rules or the book. That's what I'm talking about.
But heck, even if we are hard to please, is that really our fault? Is it unreasonable for us to expect the self proclaimed market leader to produce both a good model and good rules at the same time, and to have planned out their release marketing to the extent that they weren't giving out incorrect information, or 'forgetting' to include bits?
Not really, but we're talking about different things. There's a difference, again, between reasonable criticism and gratuitous and repetitive hyperbole. That's what I'm talking about.
But those things do make GW look like a bunch of amateurs, rather than the world's premier miniatures gaming company.
I agree a little that these things shouldn't happen, but I disagree with the rest. Every single thing that GW does is magnified into a huge gaffe both because of their information policy, and because of the nature of the commentary on this site and others. GW makes mistakes, completely agree, but not to the extent that we deride them for.
OK, I must have missed something. I bought the digital release ($3.99) that had both Knight's profile and stats. Are they releasing something else? Are there rumors of a whole codex? I saw nothing on the GW or BL site saying this.
Davespil wrote: OK, I must have missed something. I bought the digital release ($3.99) that had both Knight's profile and stats. Are they releasing something else? Are there rumors of a whole codex? I saw nothing on the GW or BL site saying this.
There's a codex, a companion and a limited edition all coming out.
HisDivineShadow wrote: I have no idea why you linked a wiki page that has basically zero information. Corroborating your statement or otherwise.
My guess would be this part...
"The arms of House Mortimer are a purple Tyranid bioform on a field of yellow."
Goodness, I am reaching deep into my memory, I played 40k and epic since it all started. House Mortimer, the archfather got involved with a genestealer cult... there was fluff in titan rulebooks, 1st and 2nd tyranid edition codexes....
Regarding Mortimer & Genestealer cult, the fluff was in one of these mentioned books/mags -
"The Genestealer Cult is a sub army that has been introduced several times for Warhammer 40,000. The initial introduction by Paul Murphy, Bryan Ansell, and Nigel Stillman was printed in White Dwarf issues 114-116 (1989). Original inspiration for the idea came from a novel by Harris Moir[citation needed]. This book was followed by an article from Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson in White Dwarf issue 145 (1992) that detailed the Genestealer Cult as part of a Tyranid Army. Later, Tim Huckelbery detailed the Genestealer Cult Army in issues 40 & 41 of the Citadel Journal, under the title Codex: Genestealer Cults[/b]. This official supplemental Codex provided official rules for using Patriarchs, Magi, Hybrids and Broodbrother units. It even included rules for a "Transport Coven Limousine." Later, in the first Codex Tyranids, these rules were incorporated as the "Genestealer Cult Army List" and included all of the characters in their previous form sans Limousine.
In the Codex for 3rd Edition, there were no rules provided for the Genestealer Cults. With the introduction of the Broodlord in 4th Edition, Genestealers could once again be fielded as their own army. Before the 4th edition introduced new sculpts for them, the 3rd edition Genestealers were the oldest models in use to date, being the same designs used in Rogue Trader and the Space Hulk game."
The pilots can get in and out of the knights, but control the knight with his thoughts (psychic link). The recent fluff states the pilots hate court events and feel more at home in their knights (paraphrasing), so they are not like dreadnought pilots, but more like Titan pilots....
Reader on faeit212 wrote:I was able to pick up the upcoming White Dwarf Weekly no. 5, and thought you'd like to hear some of this in advance.
The Freeblades mentioned as mercenaries do not appear to be something that anyone can ally with. According to WD, the Freeblades have cast aside their houses and heraldry, but continue their loyalty to the Imperium of Man, "even until death."
This last bit was in a section explaining the 'Marks of Fealty." These are the badges you can see above the knight's head. So far, I've noted three; an Aquila, he AdMech icon, and this last, the Laurels Fidelis. This last one is a skull enwreathed with a laurel.
As these are the three armies that have been purported to make up the Imperial Knight codex, I'm not really seeing anything, fluffwise, that lets Chaos or any Xenos armies take these as allies. Well, I suppose if they can be allied to Guard who then are used as Renegade Guard... I don't know.
There's a bunch of really neat articles in this issue. The Companion book appears to be just that, a companion for the Knight Codex. The article states that it contains heraldry and history, expanded fluff, for the IK release. Kind of a bummer, really. It lists the 7 major Houses of the Knight Worlds, and 7 famous Freeblades are described.
The Codex is mentioned also. Of note are "knightly ranks" in a primary detachment. My assumption would be these ranks are for the various Knight Barons, Knight Seneschals, Knight Wardens, etc...
This assumption is backed up by the battle described between two of the WD staff, Chaos and DA with IK allies. There were 5 knights with different "ranks" with the DA force. Interestingly, but maybe not an indicator, there were no knights on Chaos' side...just two Lords of Skulls.
So it seems, that the rumour about only Imperials getting the Knight is correct. And that the WD editor just forgot what he has been writing in the WD when he claimed that everyone can get it.
Reader on faeit212 wrote:I was able to pick up the upcoming White Dwarf Weekly no. 5, and thought you'd like to hear some of this in advance.
The Freeblades mentioned as mercenaries do not appear to be something that anyone can ally with. According to WD, the Freeblades have cast aside their houses and heraldry, but continue their loyalty to the Imperium of Man, "even until death."
This last bit was in a section explaining the 'Marks of Fealty." These are the badges you can see above the knight's head. So far, I've noted three; an Aquila, he AdMech icon, and this last, the Laurels Fidelis. This last one is a skull enwreathed with a laurel.
As these are the three armies that have been purported to make up the Imperial Knight codex, I'm not really seeing anything, fluffwise, that lets Chaos or any Xenos armies take these as allies. Well, I suppose if they can be allied to Guard who then are used as Renegade Guard... I don't know.
There's a bunch of really neat articles in this issue. The Companion book appears to be just that, a companion for the Knight Codex. The article states that it contains heraldry and history, expanded fluff, for the IK release. Kind of a bummer, really. It lists the 7 major Houses of the Knight Worlds, and 7 famous Freeblades are described.
The Codex is mentioned also. Of note are "knightly ranks" in a primary detachment. My assumption would be these ranks are for the various Knight Barons, Knight Seneschals, Knight Wardens, etc...
This assumption is backed up by the battle described between two of the WD staff, Chaos and DA with IK allies. There were 5 knights with different "ranks" with the DA force. Interestingly, but maybe not an indicator, there were no knights on Chaos' side...just two Lords of Skulls.
So it seems, that the rumour about only Imperials getting the Knight is correct. And that the WD editor just forgot what he has been writing in the WD when he claimed that everyone can get it.
In apocalypse everyone can take it. They probably dont want to let too much go rule wise because of the codex. Friend picked up his Knight today from our Local Hobby shop. And its a realy nice model.
Well GW havent helped their cause by emailing out again for the links to the LotD books etc because they got the original links wrong, man is someone having a bad week in their cyber office... I love the Knights, and will consider them a future purchase to help bulk out my Space Wolves Armoury, they could be the Fang's gatekepers
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: I'm a bit confused on how there's going to be a codex with only two units. Do knights count as troops? Are there heavy support, fast attack, or elite options? If there's an HQ one with any improved stats then that will be terrifying. Also, do you think they will have access to the vehicle upgrades?
Do we know for sure that the codex only has 2 units (the 2 knight variants)? Was that posted somewhere in here that there are no infantry / etc in the book?
I was going off the lack of any other releases besides the new knights for why it would lack infantry. I guess you could just throw guardsmen in the book as well but that's kind of a waste. Also the two variant theory comes from the low number of weapons on the knight. So far I've only seen two changeable weapons which would suggest two types.
HisDivineShadow wrote: I have no idea why you linked a wiki page that has basically zero information. Corroborating your statement or otherwise.
My guess would be this part...
"The arms of House Mortimer are a purple Tyranid bioform on a field of yellow."
Goodness, I am reaching deep into my memory, I played 40k and epic since it all started. House Mortimer, the archfather got involved with a genestealer cult... there was fluff in titan rulebooks, 1st and 2nd tyranid edition codexes....
Regarding Mortimer & Genestealer cult, the fluff was in one of these mentioned books/mags -
"The Genestealer Cult is a sub army that has been introduced several times for Warhammer 40,000. The initial introduction by Paul Murphy, Bryan Ansell, and Nigel Stillman was printed in White Dwarf issues 114-116 (1989). Original inspiration for the idea came from a novel by Harris Moir[citation needed]. This book was followed by an article from Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson in White Dwarf issue 145 (1992) that detailed the Genestealer Cult as part of a Tyranid Army. Later, Tim Huckelbery detailed the Genestealer Cult Army in issues 40 & 41 of the Citadel Journal, under the title Codex: Genestealer Cults[/b]. This official supplemental Codex provided official rules for using Patriarchs, Magi, Hybrids and Broodbrother units. It even included rules for a "Transport Coven Limousine." Later, in the first Codex Tyranids, these rules were incorporated as the "Genestealer Cult Army List" and included all of the characters in their previous form sans Limousine.
In the Codex for 3rd Edition, there were no rules provided for the Genestealer Cults. With the introduction of the Broodlord in 4th Edition, Genestealers could once again be fielded as their own army. Before the 4th edition introduced new sculpts for them, the 3rd edition Genestealers were the oldest models in use to date, being the same designs used in Rogue Trader and the Space Hulk game."
The pilots can get in and out of the knights, but control the knight with his thoughts (psychic link). The recent fluff states the pilots hate court events and feel more at home in their knights (paraphrasing), so they are not like dreadnought pilots, but more like Titan pilots....
Thanks for the info, I'm still a bit confused of the Tyranid/Mortimer links, I can see nid players buying pots of blue and yellow paint!
Still really looking forward to Knights, been wanting a way back into the hobby and I think this maybe it
GW previews the pre-order models in an issue of White Dwarf, we see lots of new models, codex, rules and stats snippets and a lot of fluff and hyperbole. Then 30 days later in the next issue more info is given, painting how to's and other info since all of the models are now out and everyone who wants them have the rules.
New strategy...
This is an assumption on my part but because White Dwarf is now a weekly magazine the info we used to get in one monthly magazine will now be divided up and released bit by bit over the course of four weeks. We are not going to get a weekly WD that has the same amount of content that the monthly magazine did.
The official release of any info from GW on this army was like five days ago. A lot more info is going to be coming out over the course of the next few weeks. I think all of the people running around and having internet spastic attacks need to step back, relax and wait and see what happens. We will all certainly know a lot more on March 8th when the Codex is delivered.
You (we) may not like this bit by bit info release but with the need to have new content four times per month instead of just once, I think this will be the road map of future releases.
Basically (think how chaos corrupted humans, but from a tyranid way corrupting humans), Genestealer infects members of another species with its genotype. The resultant changes in the genome of the host cause a fanatical loyalty to the Genestealers as well as a drastic change to their reproductive system; their firstborn children will be Hybrids, a grotesque mixture of the host's race and Genestealers. These hybrids infect further victims, and the infection spreads exponentially. Fourth generation hybrids produce Purestrain Genestealers, and the cycle starts once again...
Davespil wrote: OK, I must have missed something. I bought the digital release ($3.99) that had both Knight's profile and stats. Are they releasing something else? Are there rumors of a whole codex? I saw nothing on the GW or BL site saying this.
There's a codex, a companion and a limited edition all coming out.
I tried to follow this thread but there are just too many posts. Is there word on a release date? Where are the rumors coming from?
Davespil wrote: OK, I must have missed something. I bought the digital release ($3.99) that had both Knight's profile and stats. Are they releasing something else? Are there rumors of a whole codex? I saw nothing on the GW or BL site saying this.
There's a codex, a companion and a limited edition all coming out.
I tried to follow this thread but there are just too many posts. Is there word on a release date? Where are the rumors coming from?
Re house Mortimer how much do you guys wanna bet that the new fluff reads they where hurt a genestealer infestation and now hate the 'nids and their house logo is to remind them to stay vigilant or something.
I don't think that House Mortimer has transfers for these new kits. I had a look at both transfer sheets and couldn't see anything.
You might be right about the fluff though, they may either have been infiltrated by Genestealers and destroyed or have some Tyranid fighting connection. There is a transfer of a mailed fist holding a dragon/snake so that could be a redesigned House Mortimer icon.
An army of knights? Maybe we might be getting some mechanicus troops as well but seriously £85 each who the hell is going to field an entire army of them, although I suppose most of us have more money than sense. I saw "rapid fire battle cannon" on their GW site entry and felt my dark eldar start to slowly weep, I have heard rumours that any army will be able to use them, no idea how this will work but they look good and if I still had a well paid job I might be tempted to get one.
FURIOSO wrote: An army of knights? Maybe we might be getting some mechanicus troops as well but seriously £85 each who the hell is going to field an entire army of them, although I suppose most of us have more money than sense. I saw "rapid fire battle cannon" on their GW site entry and felt my dark eldar start to slowly weep, I have heard rumours that any army will be able to use them, no idea how this will work but they look good and if I still had a well paid job I might be tempted to get one.
I don't think it's all that expensive compared to a guard army or a Tyranid army (haven't calculated it... just guessing based off how empty my wallet feels every time I buy more IG or Tyranids, lol).
FURIOSO wrote: An army of knights? Maybe we might be getting some mechanicus troops as well but seriously £85 each who the hell is going to field an entire army of them, although I suppose most of us have more money than sense...
Given that you'll only get 4 of them in a 1500 point army, it's not really that expensive compared to other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: ...and then there are people who are saying that the rules are crap or that it is a book with two units without seeing the rules or the book.
Yeah, it is a little peculiar how when GW previews something, people form an opinion based on that preview.
No, wait... that's not peculiar at all. The entire point of a preview is to showcase the new release. So yes, people formed an opinion based on the rules as they were presented, because GW put them out there and said 'Hey, check out these rules!'. And they gave absolutely no indication that there will be anything other than the two knight variants in the codex.
Not really, but we're talking about different things. There's a difference, again, between reasonable criticism and gratuitous and repetitive hyperbole. That's what I'm talking about.
Indeed there is. For former, for example, would be like reading rules presented as a preview and pointing out that you don't think they are very good, or a good thing for the game overall. The latter would be like, say, seeing people putting forward their opinion on said previewed rules and announcing that those people are just mindless 'haters' or are screaming that the sky is falling...
Every single thing that GW does is magnified into a huge gaffe both because of their information policy, and because of the nature of the commentary on this site and others. .
Yes, that's entirely the point. People form an opinion based on the information that GW give us. When GW don't give us complete information, that means that people will be forming an opinion based on the information that they have, because they have no way of knowing that there is anything more to it.
To take the Knight Codex example, if there are other units in there, then a simple mention in the White Dwarf preview that there would be some sort of auxiliary options or whatever would have been enough if they didn't want to spoil details of what those units were... just the mention that there would be something other than the one model with two different guns. They didn't do that... and so people concluded that there would just be those two units, because there is no indication of this not being the case.
That's not people being unreasonable. That's the situation that GW create with their chosen release methodology.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, it doesn't help its only a 64 page codex, which implies theres not a lot of rules content in there considering the codex standard is 100 pages.
It also didn't help that the sprues were shown and we saw that there were only the two options.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, it doesn't help its only a 64 page codex, which implies theres not a lot of rules content in there considering the codex standard is 100 pages.
It's got to be a almost 64 pages of nothing but rules though.
The fluff part comes in a $75 book released at roughly the same time.
Are there precedents in the GW range of kits doing double duty, cross-codex, nowadays? Aside from the baseline SM kits, aren't most of them codex-specific? Again, not that I want to move goalposts, but I'm talking physical codex, not digital only. I know that Inquisition can pick and choose from many codices (codexes, codii, cod pieces?)
If there were to be auxilia to Knights, in the form of new kits, I think we'd have had leaks about them by now.
But for all we know, in this time of relative-upheaval of release schedules, they might buck the trend and show us page after page of Cadians in heraldic uniforms. Bretonnians... with guns!!!
FURIOSO wrote: An army of knights? Maybe we might be getting some mechanicus troops as well but seriously £85 each who the hell is going to field an entire army of them, although I suppose most of us have more money than sense. I saw "rapid fire battle cannon" on their GW site entry and felt my dark eldar start to slowly weep, I have heard rumours that any army will be able to use them, no idea how this will work but they look good and if I still had a well paid job I might be tempted to get one.
There will always be someone. As I said earlier, some dude at my local store preordered five of them.
via Father Gabe on Faeit 212
I have had a chance to skim through my advanced copy of Codex: Imperial Knight. Here are the highlights:
1) For non-Imperial Knight armies...you can get up to 3 as a separate detachment. This is a separate detachment from allies and lord of war...which is the new template I am guessing we will see in future codexes...sorry everyone Escalation is standard. Unless of course I looked at that box wrong...
2) Datasheets. There is a section in the codex, after organization chart, that covers Datasheets. None are mentioned but looks like these will be popping up in books...sorry everyone that don't consider them official, etc...
3) Ally Matrix:
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else
Allies of Convenience: Eldar,Grey Knights
Desperate Allies: Tau, Dark Eldar
Apocalypse: Orks, Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll on the Knight Apparent/Knight Seneschal chart. 1 - Knight is -1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 5+ now. 2-5 Your an Imperial Knight. 6 - Knight is +1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 3+ now.
5) Concerning Warlord Traits: They range up and down from being useful to 'meh'. Examples: +1" to Run/Charge range. +1 to Building Damage Chart. My favorite: Warlord gains It Will Not Die!
6) Let me stop all the questions now ladies and gentleman. Cannot show pictures. There are no other unit entries for Adeptus Mechanicum or Freeblades. They are not even listed on the ally chart.
7) The Companion Guide is amazingly beautiful for coffee table style books. Its a big book, lots of pretty pictures, etc. It does not contain rules but for collectors its a nice buy. Average guy might not buy it but dedicated collectors will want to order it. I recommend ordering it in a Games Workshop, ship to the store for safety and protection of the book.
Oh the amount of bs in this Codex is too damn high!!!
This is the moment 40k died, right here, dead. Call it hyperbole but I actually now do heavily suspect that they've let go most of the design team and it's now jervis and a hand full of a web guys and or interns doing whatever the boardroom commands.
This is beyond stupid and the fact that they're expecting players to pay 4/5's the price of a codex, something that used to represent a good deal of time and effort on the studios part is beyond absurd, it's downright fething horrid.
Before all this escalation bs playing a game against a new opponent wasn't nearly the political mindfield it is today. What was different you ask? Apoc was a seperate game from 40k. I knew bs like allies and fortifications would be s sign of gakky things to come for 40k but I never imagined they'd go full stupid.
As far as I am concerned and likely for my group if someone want's to buy, convert and paint a Knight to fit in a themed list I frankly don't give a toss about the ally chart!
You converted a looted knight, congrats you now have a battle brother for an orc army. You pussed it up and painted it ooze colour, congrats you now have a battle brother knight for your nurgle army!
via Father Gabe on Faeit 212
I have had a chance to skim through my advanced copy of Codex: Imperial Knight. Here are the highlights:
1) For non-Imperial Knight armies...you can get up to 3 as a separate detachment. This is a separate detachment from allies and lord of war...which is the new template I am guessing we will see in future codexes...sorry everyone Escalation is standard. Unless of course I looked at that box wrong...
2) Datasheets. There is a section in the codex, after organization chart, that covers Datasheets. None are mentioned but looks like these will be popping up in books...sorry everyone that don't consider them official, etc...
3) Ally Matrix:
Battle Brothers: Everyone Else
Allies of Convenience: Eldar,Grey Knights
Desperate Allies: Tau, Dark Eldar
Apocalypse: Orks, Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids
4) Primary Detachment: 3 - 6 Imperial Knights. 1 is the designated Warlord (roll on Imperial Knight Warlord Trait table...yep Warlord Traits).
Additionally: Your remaining Imperial Knights in the Primary formation can roll on the Knight Apparent/Knight Seneschal chart. 1 - Knight is -1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 5+ now. 2-5 Your an Imperial Knight. 6 - Knight is +1 WS/BS, Ion Shield is 3+ now.
5) Concerning Warlord Traits: They range up and down from being useful to 'meh'. Examples: +1" to Run/Charge range. +1 to Building Damage Chart. My favorite: Warlord gains It Will Not Die!
6) Let me stop all the questions now ladies and gentleman. Cannot show pictures. There are no other unit entries for Adeptus Mechanicum or Freeblades. They are not even listed on the ally chart.
7) The Companion Guide is amazingly beautiful for coffee table style books. Its a big book, lots of pretty pictures, etc. It does not contain rules but for collectors its a nice buy. Average guy might not buy it but dedicated collectors will want to order it. I recommend ordering it in a Games Workshop, ship to the store for safety and protection of the book.
Oh the amount of bs in this Codex is too damn high!!!
Wait, hold on, stop the presses...
Space marines can not be come the Apocalypse. Absolutely not, 0 chance of that happening. Nuh-uh. Nope.
EDIT: D'oh, that's Chaos... crisis gone folks!
Either way, sounds silly. That Knight table sounds bonkers.
Its still bad, its not like you get a discount on Point for this, nor i admit you pay more.
But still.
Why not simply do like in IA2 second edition?, you pay Titles or Legacies or Battles Feats for your machine that give a bonus and a malus of some sort, that would have been interesting, not this.
And that Ally chart...
Even if yes its better to have its own rules for a Chaos Knight, it wouldn't have Hurt to let them be Allies of Conviniance, it would have boosted the sales, a lot of CSm players where ready to buy it, Or if they where smart make a Twin release, Imperial Knights Codex and Chaos Knights Codex this Month, seeing how poor the content of the dex is, it wouldn't have asked too much work on their part, Copy/paste all rules, change names from Imperial to Chaos/Hel/Skull/Blood and FLuff and voila!, but nope, CSM once again gotta wait dark Gods Balls Who knows how many weeks/months/years for this...
And this "Third Detachement syndrome" once again?...
So Imperials gets Sm main army, with Tau/Eldar Allies, with a Fireblade Formation, Inquisitors allies AND Knights formation...
If I'm using Knights I plan on running a full army of them. They really wont be that expensive, you can pick them up for around £65-£70, considering I'm guessing it'll take me a month or two to finish 1 of these things I'm not worrying.
I'm not sure how I feel about the veracity of a rumour from someone on Natfka claiming they have a Codex of any flavour 10 days early.
While not impossible, certainly seems mostly plausible in fact, but then that's the art of good trolling, I'd season this pretty heavily until it is corroborated somewhere else.
They aren't telling us the rules for the Freeblades/Allies for a reason, not blind stupidity that they forgot to write them .
