The great thing about LOTR, is that the basic plastic armies are still available for cheap. To copypaste from GBHL:-
Last weeks video that Stephen Kemp and myself did talked about how you can get into the hobby with as little as £55. To follow up here is a look at Gondor as the Kingdoms of Men book is now back in stock!!
What you need to buy:-
Commanders of Gondor boxed set (captain, knight of the tower, horn blower, standard bearer)
2 boxes of Minas Tirith Warriors
This gives you a nice little 350 point army!
Captain, shield
12 warriors (banner, horn blower
Captain (no upgrades)
12 warriors
In this army I have proxied the Knight of the Tower as a captain with no upgrades. If your opponent is ok with it, you can play 355pts and use him as an actual Knight of the Tower But a solid start to the army - and the hobby!
Next level - 500pts - £34. Buy Faramir and a box of Knights and take:
Faramir, horse, shield
5 Knights, shields
For 150pts
Boom! 500pt army! At this point juggle the list around so you can take the Knight of the tower as he is intended. But what a fantastic army to start with, a lot of fun to play with, and a solid foundation for any Gondor based army. Is it fully competitive? No! But it's not too shabby either, and you can now play in lots of events and learn the game for yourself - and it's an easy army to tweak and expand as you wish (Fountain Guard, Citadel guard, other characters).The potential is endless! But the initial investment of £55 to get 26 models for a nice 350pt army can't be overlooked!
And what a nice and easy paint project!
Following on with the Kingdoms of Men I now take a look at building a 350 point army of...
Rohan!
Eomer, on horse, shield, throwing spear (either add a spear bit OR ask your opponent if they don't mind that the model doesn't have a spear, but is using one)
Erkenbrand, on horse
12 Riders of Rohan, 4 with throwing spears, all upgraded to Westfold Redshields (so a juicy fight 4!)
It's actually 346pts - so if you are handy at conversions why not add 2 more throwing spears to the list to get your even 350pts
It's widely accepted that Eomer and Erkenbrand are BY FAR the 2 best named heroes for the Rohan army list - and as such this forms a SOLID start to your list. Your only using 12 warriors right now - so can easily add 12 more warriors to max out the warbands and increase your points values without buying anymore heroes! The cost?
73.50 GBP (Sorry, my keyboard only has $!) brand new from GW - so not taking into account second hand, trades, etc, just the sticker price. A marvelous price to get yourself a decent start to a fun faction. Is it competitive? No! But we play for fun - and when you master this kind of force it has it's own appeal and allure.
So what are you waiting for?
Ketara wrote: The great thing about LOTR, is that the basic plastic armies are still available for cheap. To copypaste from GBHL:-
Yeah the old stuff is still cheap (though not nearly as cheap as when it was first released).... but the new stuff has to sell if this game is going to get off the ground.
A lot of people were enthusiastic about The Hobbit but didn't follow it up with purchases due to pricing.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: As excited as I want to be, one of the big things (IMO) that killed The Hobbit was pricing.... if the new releases are going to be resin and at FW prices, I'm sort of expecting this to flounder the same way The Hobbit did.
You forget the epic fails of Jacksons design choices.
RazorEdge wrote: You forget the epic fails of Jacksons design choices.
I'm sure that was part of it, but there were still lots of people enthusiastic for The Hobbit (talking about the game here specifically) but didn't really buy much if anything. There were some pretty nice models initially, but I don't think people wanted to pay multipose Space Marine prices for monopose Mirkwood Elves, or almost $200 just to get the 13 Dwarves + Bilbo, or $10 per Knight of Rivendell, $40-45 for a character on foot + mounted, $25 for 3 Gundabad Orcs and so on.
RazorEdge wrote: You forget the epic fails of Jacksons design choices.
I'm sure that was part of it, but there were still lots of people enthusiastic for The Hobbit (talking about the game here specifically) but didn't really buy much if anything. There were some pretty nice models initially, but I don't think people wanted to pay multipose Space Marine prices for monopose Mirkwood Elves, or almost $200 just to get the 13 Dwarves + Bilbo, or $10 per Knight of Rivendell and so on.
Precisely! I love the Hobbit as much as the next guy, or to be honest a lot more than most, and I was ready to go all-in if the prices had been in line with even the repackaged LotR stuff. But when they're asking the same for a dozen pretty poorly sculpted monopose Elves as they are for a 180-odd piece Tactical Squad, or most of a Leman Russ tank, or even 10 much better (from a technical perspective) WFB Elves (the last few waves of Elf plastics were great), it's just not something I can justify.
Couple that with the fact GW made the smallest possible effort after the first film, and basically just released slightly different and more expensive Gandalfs and Bilbos each month, and it was easy to let it pass me by, and channel the enthusiasm the films gave me into finishing up my existing LotR armies instead.
Give me good models, a good game and reasonable prices and I'll hand over the cash, especially for franchises/settings I like. There's a reason I don't baulk at paying for Knight Models' DC and Marvel stuff, or FFG's X-wing, because the quality is there and at a mostly reasonable price point (though I'll take discount when I can get it! ). But the cost, limited options model-wise and lack of real support killed off any grand plans I had for Hobbit armies going into the trilogy.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: but the new stuff has to sell if this game is going to get off the ground.
I'm not too worried about that. The game hasn't been making a comeback because of GW's new releases, but rather, in spite of them. If they released half a dozen new insanely priced resin kits, and nobody bought them, the gaming scene would just be exactly where it was as of six months ago, aka doing perfectly fine. The GBHL isn't going to vanish if GW screws up, and I'll keep on enjoying my game just the same (playing an independent tournament circuit and buying new models from the three or four other third party companies that have sprung up in the last year).
For what its worth, someone on the LotR side of Dakka did some resin analysis, and Forge-World, and I can't believe I am saying this, should actually be able to product these for less than GW currently charges for Finecast.
Considering I just gave them $37, for one mounted Boromir... I can't see FW being any worse.
Plus, as others have said, the bulk of models any army needs are in plastic. Building the game to playable levels is DIRT cheap compared to most table-top games, and then the premium character models are there if you want to go to the next level.
Any indication when the other source books will get released.
Also, given the information we gained earilier in the year I thought the re-badging of The Hobbit to Midlle Earth SBG for later this year/ early next was just that, a re-badging so that all the Tolkien stuff was under a single title that made sense.
Imateria wrote: Any indication when the other source books will get released.
Also, given the information we gained earilier in the year I thought the re-badging of The Hobbit to Midlle Earth SBG for later this year/ early next was just that, a re-badging so that all the Tolkien stuff was under a single title that made sense.
Supposedly they're committed to doing "new releases, or reprints" every week, so I expect the other sourcebooks very soon. Presumably each week a couple out-of-print models will come back with their matching book, just like this week.
Ketara wrote: The game hasn't been making a comeback because of GW's new releases, but rather, in spite of them. If they released half a dozen new insanely priced resin kits, and nobody bought them, the gaming scene would just be exactly where it was as of six months ago, aka doing perfectly fine.
LOTR hasn't been popular around here for years. I'd suggest it hasn't been popular anywhere for years given GW were slowly letting stuff go OOP. It's curious they are picking it up at all, I guess after the Perry's left someone made a good enough argument for its potential.
The range might not be as large as WHFB was, but it's still pretty large, I'd be surprised if GW support it for long if it doesn't pick up.
If LotR was doing well for you before, it probably doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference that GW are doing anything now. For me and my gaming community, LotR/Hobbit needs something to pick it up, not just more of the same.
GBHL is Great British Hobby League, a club who play the SBG and do events and such (I'm sure I'm selling them short as I know they do a lot for the LotR community but I don't know what exactly).
Put it this way. Having just invested money in a brand new print run of rulebooks, what do you think the odds are of them invalidating those rulebooks within three months and making them effective junk stock? Financially, it would make absolutely no sense for them.
Honest question or just trolling? Didn't they spent all that money on making books and rules for End Times like was suggest? How about 40K 6th edition? NOT EVEN 2 YEARS and a new edition came out. (true GW never said it was 7th edition, but non the less that book invalidated a lot from the 6th edition book.)
How about GW claiming that making molds is expensive so they have to keep the prices high for making molds. Funny I thought that would be the price of doing business but let's give them that excuse. So now GW makes new molds, but only sells 1000, ONE THOUSAND minis only. So much for molds and designing takes time and lots of money theory now.
Lastly, GW was so silent on The Hobbit. I saw GW take out the point costs in the mini rule book of The Hobbit. GW wanted me to fork over another $100 just to get the point costs. After seeing how GW changed the rule book on all 3 Lord of the Ring movies, I expected The Hobbit to be invalidated in year. GW was quiet didn't say this was going to be the case and The Hobbit rule book actually lasted more than one year. Question is, did GW do this because they wanted to have a lasting rule book or GW just didn't want to spend more money and resources on something that didn't sell? Again, GW was quiet then and IS STILL QUIET NOW. I just can't trust GW in what they are going to do. After seeing how much people spent so much money on books for End Times, and it was invalidated IN LESS THAN 6 MONTHS, yeah I am going to trust GW now.
You don't have to prove me wrong. I don't have to prove myself right. This is MY OPINION. Only GW can change it, and this is how I view GW. Yes they have done a lot of good since January and brought me back. I am still leary when it comes to GW and thier printed books and how valid they will be. It's up to GW to gain my trust into them, and so far GW hasn't done nothing yet to earn my trust that blindly.
ImAGeek wrote: GBHL is Great British Hobby League, a club who play the SBG and do events and such (I'm sure I'm selling them short as I know they do a lot for the LotR community but I don't know what exactly).
Ah ok, I guess me not being in GB probably accounts for me not knowing (and not caring ) what that was.
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Davor wrote: You don't have to prove me wrong. I don't have to prove myself right. This is MY OPINION.
Yeah I don't think I could blame anyone for not trusting GW won't invalidate a book soon after release these days. Their release cycle on 40k has gotten very fast and they've demonstrated they're happy enough to print books just to stop selling them shortly after.
I doubt it costs them all that much to reprint books they already have (no further editing, typesetting, etc). As long as they sell most of the books they print I'm sure they're happy even if it gets replaced soon after (and we have no idea how large of a print run they've done so we have no way to gauge that).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ]LOTR hasn't been popular around here for years. I'd suggest it hasn't been popular anywhere for years given GW were slowly letting stuff go OOP. It's curious they are picking it up at all, I guess after the Perry's left someone made a good enough argument for its potential.
That's actually where you're wrong (about it not being popular anywhere, not its locality to you).
The GBHL runs two-three tournaments a month up and down the UK right now, varying in size from 18 players up to (at the moment) 140. The playerbase size has been steadily increasing over the last three years from being almost dead. It's reached the point whereby a single recast OOP 25mm metal model that's handy in the games can go for thirty quid on ebay. The OOP rulebooks, slim volumes with nothing more than stats, have been going for up to £50 a pop! (they retailed at £17 originally)
The reason it's making a comeback is because GW has seen their figure sales steadily increase along with it, and half of the stocks run out. As such, they belatedly made the decision to bring back some support. Make no mistake, the game isn't making a comeback thanks to them choosing to, these new releases are them wondering if they can squeeze some more milk out of a teat they thought dead which has gradually started swelling again.
That's why it doesn't trouble me whether or not GW bother to support it or not. The community has revived the game, championed it, and third party model makers have even started springing up to supply it (I can name at least 4!). GW could drop it tomorrow, and it wouldn't make the slightest difference to us. They haven't supported us in years after all!
You don't have to prove me wrong. I don't have to prove myself right. This is MY OPINION.
Davor mate, you can believe whatever you like. I'm simply trying to reassure you that in this particular circumstance (we hear quite a lot on the grapevine, with the current GWLOTR team having been active GBHL members they've retained a certain amount of contact/openness), that the new set of books will last you at least a year. It's possible (or indeed, likely) that there will be a general rules re-release at some point. But it's not imminent right now.
Heh, I was going to get in to the LotR minis game, but they halved the boxes and raised the price. It's pretty bad that now it seems almost reasonable to pay 27.50 for 12 monopose troopers, should have kept it at 24 dudes in a box and made it 32.50, not a great price, but the price/value remains.
xraytango wrote: Heh, I was going to get in to the LotR minis game, but they halved the boxes and raised the price. It's pretty bad that now it seems almost reasonable to pay 27.50 for 12 monopose troopers, should have kept it at 24 dudes in a box and made it 32.50, not a great price, but the price/value remains.
They halved the number of models in the boxes like five years ago...
xraytango wrote: Heh, I was going to get in to the LotR minis game, but they halved the boxes and raised the price. It's pretty bad that now it seems almost reasonable to pay 27.50 for 12 monopose troopers, should have kept it at 24 dudes in a box and made it 32.50, not a great price, but the price/value remains.
They halved the number of models in the boxes like five years ago...
Plus it's $50 for 10 say space marines but $30 for 10-12 troops in lord of the rings so still 20 bucks cheaper and the books are significantly cheaper at about half the cost of Fantasy and 40k army books/codexs
Point system is played ~500-750 points so you need less models anyways still a good value!
Going to be making an order once the fallen realms book comes back in stock. I wonder why they didn't release all the books at once? The minis I can understand more though, slowly re-release them is fine.
Both the Ruins of Osgiliath and Laketown terrain is plastic; and Osgiliath has had a price decrease. Even at full price it was one of the best terrain kits available from anyone.
I don't see it on the GW site, is it comig back or was it a games day only thing?
In Germany and Austria there were two or three guys who put much effort in spreading and reviving the system via facebook and youtube, resulting in a country-wide increase of tournaments. The whole scene seems to be healthier than ever today, just because people now know each other and realize despite GW not caring for years there are still a lot of people around to play.
Ketara wrote: GW could drop it tomorrow, and it wouldn't make the slightest difference to us. They haven't supported us in years after all!
I care whether or not a game is supported because it affects how hard it is to get new blood in to the game.
LotR probably had the advantage that it was so popular back in the early days that there's a crap ton of stuff on ebay (or was at least, I haven't checked in a while). But I've always struggled to get mates in to games that aren't well supported enough to just buy the models and rules off the shelf.
But then maybe it's just me and my group, we tend to favour games where we can spend more time playing and less time finding models/rules that are hard to buy and opponents that are sparsely distributed.
Great.. apparantly Adam Troke said the prices were around death korps. So £40/€51 for twelve short dwarves. A great example of getting cake and not being able to eat it...(is it just me or is my writing tiny?)
Da krimson barun wrote: Great.. apparantly Adam Troke said the prices were around death korps. So £40/€51 for twelve short dwarves. A great example of getting cake and not being able to eat it...(is it just me or is my writing tiny?)
Have to admit that dampened my enthusiasm also. Was planning restarting mordor and gondor(shouldn't have sold them in the first place...). Bummer. But that's not price I'm willing to pay for miniatures.
To be fair on the price, that's still cheaper than they are in finecast blisters right now. And they'll be sold in boxes of 12 (full war band size) rather than blisters of three. So it's better than it is right now.
Da krimson barun wrote: Great.. apparantly Adam Troke said the prices were around death korps. So £40/€51 for twelve short dwarves. A great example of getting cake and not being able to eat it...(is it just me or is my writing tiny?)
Have to admit that dampened my enthusiasm also. Was planning restarting mordor and gondor(shouldn't have sold them in the first place...). Bummer. But that's not price I'm willing to pay for miniatures.
The current models are still at their old prices so if you wanted to start adding to an existing army its not going to cost you too much really. The retreaded models are also at their old prices too and the books.
I don't get why people are so down on the prices, considering most of the range is still available, and is still much much cheaper than essentially any other table-top game. $100 can get you to 600+ pts (a very full sized game), with banner, hero-models, and all, in your chosen faction.
Only new releases, which mostly exist to fill catalogue gaps will be coming out of FW, and even then, $55 for 12 resin, GORGEOUS Iron-Hill Dwarves, is better than the $50 for ten Space Marines people seem fine with.
Da krimson barun wrote: Great.. apparantly Adam Troke said the prices were around death korps. So £40/€51 for twelve short dwarves. A great example of getting cake and not being able to eat it...(is it just me or is my writing tiny?)
That's excellent, USD$5 per model is super super cheap.
Cheaper than current Hobbit finecast prices - $25 for 3, or $8.33 per model
and also cheaper than LOTR finecast prices - $26.50 for 4, or $6.63 per model
In fact, it's as cheap as current LOTR metal blisters - $15 for 3, or $5.00 per model
AllSeeingSkink wrote: LOTR hasn't been popular around here for years. I'd suggest it hasn't been popular anywhere for years given GW were slowly letting stuff go OOP. It's curious they are picking it up at all, I guess after the Perry's left someone made a good enough argument for its potential.
The range might not be as large as WHFB was, but it's still pretty large, I'd be surprised if GW support it for long if it doesn't pick up.
If LotR was doing well for you before, it probably doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference that GW are doing anything now. For me and my gaming community, LotR/Hobbit needs something to pick it up, not just more of the same.
People did not stop playing because they did not like the game or were over it. In my area, LotR died 6 months after WotR came out. WotR launched well and most were enthusiastic, but GW raised prices with new releases...a box of 20 went from $20-$24 USD to $29-$36 USD. GW did that to standardize it's prices as it's new releases were significant improvements over the older range and did not want the new boxes being priced at $5-$10 higher than the old boxes coupled with only 10 models in a box. Everyone I know stopped buying, only played with their current collection and moved on to other games to satisfy their desire to buy new stuff.
I think there is pent up demand. Prior to any of this being announced, over the last year and a half, I am seeing folks play LotR again, in spite of the lack of new stuff, books out-of-print, etc. Friendly competitive play (an excuse to play a lot of games in a short period of time) is springing up and well attended. I dusted off my collection as a result and have begin playing again. The news of GW supporting, re-printing and offering new releases; at least based on what I have seen over the last 18 months; seems to be a response to that grass-roots resurgence rather than the cause of it.
Obviously though, that's no good for those of us that have always thought the Finecast stuff (LotR and Hobbit) was ludicrously overpriced and not touched it with a barge pole for that exact reason. If it was just one set that was needed, I would pay it, but when you're looking at £80 for two Warbands, and Dain probably in the region of £25 at least, you're spending over a hundred quid just to get the basics of an army going (and you'd need to buy/convert a captain or other hero too). That same £100 could easily build a pair of decent LotR armies even at GW prices, or even more second hand.
There's just no reason for the models to be that expensive. I recently bought some top notch resin miniatures from a small Spanish company for a Euro a model. Now I appreciate this is ludicrously cheap, and that FW have both licencing and much larger overheads to pay, but the prices are just too high for something you're going to need at least a couple of sets of. I'd have happily paid £30, maybe even £35 for a set or two, but at £40 a pop they're just too far over the line for the amount you'd need.
@NTN: The reason those who've been with the game are annoyed by even the GW prices is that they used to be literally half the price! The 12 man boxes they're selling for £15, while still reasonably cheap relative to a lot of their products, is still irksome when that same £15 used to get you that sprue x2 a few years ago. I appreciate prices go up over time, but the particularly egregious doubling of the prices is still sore to those who were used to what it was before.
What we need is more threads about how GW has had price increases over 15 years.
I feel that people who are complaining about the price of plastics aren't those who actually play the game - if they were, they'd know that usually one box of plastics equals a warband, and usually about two is all you need for an army. It's the special metal and Finecast models that start racking up the costs.
Forgeworld resin dwarf infantry and $5 per model beats the snot out of trying to play Rivendell/Eregion and paying almost $7 for a Finecast Elf with Spear & Shield.
Like I said, the price is still somewhat reasonable. But when the price quite literally doubles overnight, it becomes hard to see the value in paying twice the price for the exact same stuff you've already been buying for years... We're not talking a gradual increase, we're talking a huge, sudden increase in price with absolutely no justification.
Yes, it's cheaper than a Finecast Elf army, but as I say, there's a reason I'm not playing a Finecast Elf army, I find those prices just as absurd and refuse to pay them.
Paradigm wrote: Like I said, the price is still somewhat reasonable. But when the price quite literally doubles overnight, it becomes hard to see the value in paying twice the price for the exact same stuff you've already been buying for years... We're not talking a gradual increase, we're talking a huge, sudden increase in price with absolutely no justification.
Yes, it's cheaper than a Finecast Elf army, but as I say, there's a reason I'm not playing a Finecast Elf army, I find those prices just as absurd and refuse to pay them.
When did the price quite literally double overnight? Was it recently? A news item? In January of 2012 - nearly 4.5 years ago, they went from two-sprue boxes that were $35 to one-sprue boxes that were (and remain) $24.75; Cavalry remained the same price.
Is that what you're talking about?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me clarify; when I say that a $5 Forge World Dwarf is a good price, I'm talking about May 2016 dollars, not January 2012 dollars or 2001 dollars or "back in the good ol' days" dollars, because, gosh, then everything sucks compared to when we could get a set of tin flats and three humbrol glossy enamel paints for 99p !
That's the one, I don't know about the US prices but in the UK they went from £16 for 24 to £15 for 12, so only a pound short of actually doubling. Might not be recent, but it's still the reason I've not bought a single LotR plastic set since then. Fortunately I had enough to finish up most of my armies, but that doesn't excuse the ridiculous increase. Something cannot just be valued at one price one day and then practically double that the next, it's just naked greed.
I know you're talking about current prices, but I'm arguing that even then, these models are too expensive for me personally to be interested in. If you can afford them and see the value then good for you, but I just don't.
Paradigm wrote: That's the one, I don't know about the US prices but in the UK they went from £16 for 24 to £15 for 12, so only a pound short of actually doubling.
No, you can even go and find the old threads about it on dakka back in January 2012; they dropped in price by 1/3, not one pound - the joke at the time was "33% discount for 50% less models!"
Once again, to everyone reading this thread in the News & Rumors section, there has been no overnight price increase for SBG models. The last increase was nearly 4.5 years ago - and in fact we've had a decrease on one kit and older out of print models are now being reprinted.
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Paradigm wrote: I know you're talking about current prices, but I'm arguing that even then, these models are too expensive for me personally to be interested in. If you can afford them and see the value then good for you, but I just don't.
I do; it is the best ruleset GW makes (and one of the best it has ever made) and is home to the best sculpts GW has ever done. The models and game put every other offering by GW and the offerings by the vast majority of other rules designers and figure manufacturers to shame.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: To be fair on the price, that's still cheaper than they are in finecast blisters right now. And they'll be sold in boxes of 12 (full war band size) rather than blisters of three. So it's better than it is right now.
It also helps that you don't need to buy 5-6 boxes or more of the little guys, like you would to play Deathkreig in 40K. You could mix one box of these with a dozen of the plastic Warriors of Erebor plus a few Heroes to have a playable force. Overall the "cost of entry" (the big problem with both 40K and WFB) is still pretty reasonable.
Not to be mediator guy... but I definitely understand both perspective. The only perspective I can provide is as someone who found the game in the last six months, coming from having played tons of 40k, WHFB, and Kings of War in the last couple of years (plus some "indie" games like Frostgrave, or This is Not a Test".
From that vantage point, Middle-Earth SBG is still legitimately a value rich game. Compared at today's dollars, point-for-point compared against other current game, SBG is still cheap, surprisingly available, and the rules are so, so good/clean.
That said, sure... I can imagine a particularly valid salt for those who haven't seen their favorite factions get new sprues, and instead just saw boxes of two sprues, suddenly become one. No one wants to feel that happen.
But, again for context... lets just soak in how pleasant it generally is that the new, and improving corporate culture of GW can not only put models and books back in print which was becoming unattainably rare/expensive on the secondary market, and even supporting the game with new kits (at, acceptable by most MODERN standards prices), for a game that honestly no one thought would see the light of day again.
Also, cheap by any standard, reprinted codexes, huge scenario books on the horizon, and some of the best, and cheapest quality terrain the industry has seen back in print?
All in all, i'm seeing a lot more positive here than not. :-) Well, unless you're that one guy who hates everything GW will ever do again, and only likes Magic cards. ;-) (I kid, I kid... its all in the name of good fun).
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all that, the fact GW is finally reviving the game that should never have gone away, and doing so with far more commitment than they've shown recently, is undoubtedly great news. I won't be buying much new stuff as basically, I don't need to with most of my armies being reasonably complete, but it's all good really!
Paradigm wrote: Don't get me wrong, I agree with all that, the fact GW is finally reviving the game that should never have gone away, and doing so with far more commitment than they've shown recently, is undoubtedly great news. I won't be buying much new stuff as basically, I don't need to with most of my armies being reasonably complete, but it's all good really!
I'm in much the same situation. I spend the last two years (and more money than I care to admit) completing my LOTR collection because I thought the end was immanent. Currently, with a meager handful of exceptions, I've got at least one of every character, 12 of every metal/finecast warrior and 24 of every plastic warrior ever made for the game.
I am looking forward to the new stuff they are promising us for the Hobbit portion of the range and I plan to pick up at least a couple of the re-released Osgiliath Ruins and Laketown buildings. Mostly, though, I'm just excited that this renewed support make generate some new players for club and league play.
Well gosh if any if you gents has any old metal mordor orcs, let me know! I'm working on completing a set of them and I've got some doubles/triples of some poses and looking to swap for ones I don't have yet
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: To be fair on the price, that's still cheaper than they are in finecast blisters right now. And they'll be sold in boxes of 12 (full war band size) rather than blisters of three. So it's better than it is right now.
a) 3 or 12, price per miniature is what counts
b) just because it might be better than now doesn't make the price fair. Sure it might not be 100£ per model but it's still too much for what it gives in return. While I COULD afford to pay if I wanted to with those prices I have better targets for my money.
Good thing there's ebay though takes bit more time. But GW is pricing themselves to point where time is less of a price.
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judgedoug wrote: What we need is more threads about how GW has had price increases over 15 years.
I feel that people who are complaining about the price of plastics aren't those who actually play the game - if they were, they'd know that usually one box of plastics equals a warband, and usually about two is all you need for an army. It's the special metal and Finecast models that start racking up the costs.
Forgeworld resin dwarf infantry and $5 per model beats the snot out of trying to play Rivendell/Eregion and paying almost $7 for a Finecast Elf with Spear & Shield.
Yeah I don't play anymore. You know why? GW priced themselves too high. Sure technically I could afford. It wouldn't drive me into poverty to buy. But it just ain't WORTH the money. Why spend this amount for bunch of models when there's better things I could spend the money? There's only so much euro's I'm willing to spend per model. And GW went over that long time ago.
Too pricey models, won't buy models. No models, can't play.
I used to play LOTR but with the pricing screw it. Too expensive for what it offers in return.
I really dont get the whole "i used to play but now i dont because the price is too high" why do you need to keep buying if you already have models to play?
It is true however that the prices are too high for what you get with the plastic lotr models. Single pose less detail smaller scale for the same price as 40k multipart high detail plastics with options and spares is rediculous. The hobbit minis are in a category of their own in crazy pricing. Doesnt bother me however because I already have a huge army from.back when morder orcs were 24 for £12 (which did rise to 15) and you got 2 heroes per blister for £5-6
All ill be buying is a new fallen realms book and ill be good to go!
If I was a new player however I'd be seriously put off playing just because of the cost of the basic models.
Bobug wrote: I really dont get the whole "i used to play but now i dont because the price is too high" why do you need to keep buying if you already have models to play?
'cause due to need for money and having lost gaming partners(not to mention your room getting ridiculously crowded so something needed to go) you sold your models?
For me to play now would require total rebuild from scratch.
(And for the record I don't agree with 40k prices either. While I have 40k models that I still use in 2nd edition games I have stopped buying new ones precisely for same reason. Not enough value to be given. Frankly GW prices are getting to the level I would rather invest in good system camera. Price vs fun is getting awfully good for system cameras favour...Only issue with THAT being that those are bit heavy for my main camera use)
What in the flying feth? So the SBG N&R thread is now populated with people complaining about a price increase from four and a half years ago and that somehow that price increase invalidated all the miniatures they used to own?
Can a mod please step in and edit/delete/enforce this thread? Because right now it's a pile of steaming garbage.
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tneva82 wrote: While I COULD afford to pay if I wanted to with those prices I have better targets for my money.
So, let me get this straight. You wander into the SBG News & Rumor thread in order to complain about a price increase from four and a half years ago and that somehow that price increase invalidated all the models you used to own (economically, GW did you a favor and increased the value of your models), and now you don't play the game, but you have the overwhelming urge to tell everyone that you don't play and you'd rather spend your money on other models.
Don't worry Doug. Its just a tangent, as long term threads tend to have... and as negativity goes, there is worse than discussion about a game where no one has a single bad thing to say about the game itself. :-)
Besides, you and I will, on our own, buy enough units to maintain GW's continued support. :-) I certainly appreciate everyone's opinions, but for my own self, I am buying EVERYTHING they release for this game going forward, and filling in my back-catalogue as they reissue units, and OOP models. :-)
I know that 12 decent plastic figures for about $25 is not a price I consider too high. I may pick up a box of the plastic dwarf rangers and the other plastic dwarfs. I never wanted 24 of each so this actually works out well for me.
I'm looking forward to seeing the plastic terrain too. I love my Moria set and my Goblin Town set.
I recently ordered a box of Conquest Games/Warlord Norman Knights to try to make some Rohan riders. I'm looking forward to this!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: From that vantage point, Middle-Earth SBG is still legitimately a value rich game. Compared at today's dollars, point-for-point compared against other current game, SBG is still cheap, surprisingly available, and the rules are so, so good/clean.
That said, sure... I can imagine a particularly valid salt for those who haven't seen their favorite factions get new sprues, and instead just saw boxes of two sprues, suddenly become one. No one wants to feel that happen.
I think the problem is that a lot of people that are complaining about a price increase from January 2012 are people that didn't actually play the game. As you and I and all actual SBG players know, normal SBG has units act in warbands of up to twelve warriors - that must be led by a hero. Having piles of dozens and dozens up to hundreds of models for SBG "in the good ol days" was either for some insane Legions of Middle-Earth army list, or... well, I have no idea, someone who just likes having piles of infantry surround them as they lament the passing of the good ol' days. Most armies have maybe 24 plastic infantry in them, tops. They are the least of any player's concern. Buying a box of 24 Dwarf Rangers may look great to someone who doesn't play, but the fact of the matter is you'll probably use like 8 or 12 of those guys in any Durin's Folk list. While we all dislike paying more, the 10/12-man boxes serve the Warbands rules perfectly well.
Plus, it happened four and a half years ago.
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CptJake wrote: I know that 12 decent plastic figures for about $25 is not a price I consider too high. I may pick up a box of the plastic dwarf rangers and the other plastic dwarfs. I never wanted 24 of each so this actually works out well for me.
I'm looking forward to seeing the plastic terrain too. I love my Moria set and my Goblin Town set.
I recently ordered a box of Conquest Games/Warlord Norman Knights to try to make some Rohan riders. I'm looking forward to this!
And now that Warlord is rereleasing the supercheap WGF figs with a price increase, I think we're leaving the days of supercheap plastic models. 12 dudes for $25 is a little pricey, but again, in the context of SBG when you need maybe two boxes, it's not bad. Especially since the vast majority are sculpted by Perry. And the Hobbit plastics are pretty much the best plastic infantry ever released - just got my fourth Warriors of Dale set because they are my favorite plastic fantasy infantry of all time and are well worth the price. No idea why I bought that fourth set, but whatever. hah
If you don't have the Osgiliath set, I recommend getting two. They are fantastic. I own five or six sets personally.
I recently got the Fireforge mounted sergeants to convert with plastic Numenorean infantry to make Numenorean knights!
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Don't worry Doug. Its just a tangent, as long term threads tend to have... and as negativity goes, there is worse than discussion about a game where no one has a single bad thing to say about the game itself. :-)
Besides, you and I will, on our own, buy enough units to maintain GW's continued support. :-) I certainly appreciate everyone's opinions, but for my own self, I am buying EVERYTHING they release for this game going forward, and filling in my back-catalogue as they reissue units, and OOP models. :-)
Okay, you have a point. We are in an era where SBG is getting new rules, new units, new books, out of production models back in print - and new models, that are actually CHEAPER than current models! The rules are some of the best GW has ever released (thanks to Alessio Cavatore and Rick Priestley, and now thanks to Adam Troke), the miniatures line is one of the finest to ever hit market. And the only real complaint is a price increase from years and years ago And yeah I'm in the same boat. I have nearly ever model released, except for some armies (I don't collect any Rohan, Khand, Angmar, or Rhun/Easterlings for instance)
Does anyone know if the re-releases last week made it to the rumours? Not sure if I read anywhere which models were going to be re-releases that week? Just interested if they are going to be doing weekly re-releases or if it will be spaced out more than that?
Yep, they were mentioned a page or so back. I believe they mentioned that every week there would be 'something', whether that is a new release or a re-release.
Bobug wrote:I really dont get the whole "i used to play but now i dont because the price is too high" why do you need to keep buying if you already have models to play?
I can think of a few reasons. While yes we don't have to buy anything new to play thing is we still love to buy new shiney stuff. So if the new stuff is priced high compared to what we use to pay for, we just don't find the worth in it now.
Another reason is trying to get to players. Why bother getting back in, while we don't have to buy anything else, if no new players will be coming in again, because of higher prices why bother starting?
I don't know if this would apply but I think it has something to do with high prices. The thing is, GW needs us, we don't need GW. While we would love to have LotR product again we don't need it. GW needs to sell it. Unlike AoS where GW have written the Fantasy players away and are expecting new players coming in to save them, there will be no new players coming in to buy LotR. It will be basically us, the old folks who use to buy LotR again to support this range and then hoping to bring in new players with the excitement we create. So again, GW needs us more than ever. So to price us out from the beginning, just boggles my mind. Wait I take that back, this is GW after all and I expect them to make stupid decisions. Even after all the good will they do, I still am leary of what they can do. Time will tell since we don't know what GW vision is yet of LotR.
So I am hoping to start buying again. Time will tell.
Doug really nailed it with his statements about how warbands, even in bigger SBG games are constructed. I will certainly echo his statement of, one box is all anyone but the most hardcore player would need of any given unit, outside of theme armies you, as a player, choose to build. Unlike say 40k, that one box for $25 may legitimately be the only time you buy "Thing X", which makes the price/value proposition far better as well.
Yes, nuts like me will want 24 of the new FW Iron-Hill Dwarves, but only because I LOVE Dwarves, and like trying extreme, odd, lists in SBG. Buying 24 of 'em certainly won't be a smart, or typical player experience. :-p
Nah... I stand by the fact that SBG is still one of the best miniatures games I have EVER played, and still has one of the cheapest barriers to play ever as well. Sure, it can be pricey if you go for a fringe, all-resin, faction, but 85% of the core armies can have good, fun, playable, and even competitive lists for under $100, which is amazing in this hobby.
And I would love new players to discover the game, and hope they will... but I don't need that to happen to find great joy in the game, and love growing and painting my collection. If anything, I hope my passion and enthusiasm finds just as many new players as does the prospect of "new" GW models and rules.
Bobug wrote:I really dont get the whole "i used to play but now i dont because the price is too high" why do you need to keep buying if you already have models to play?
I can think of a few reasons. While yes we don't have to buy anything new to play thing is we still love to buy new shiney stuff. So if the new stuff is priced high compared to what we use to pay for, we just don't find the worth in it now.
Another reason is trying to get to players. Why bother getting back in, while we don't have to buy anything else, if no new players will be coming in again, because of higher prices why bother starting?
I don't know if this would apply but I think it has something to do with high prices. The thing is, GW needs us, we don't need GW. While we would love to have LotR product again we don't need it. GW needs to sell it. Unlike AoS where GW have written the Fantasy players away and are expecting new players coming in to save them, there will be no new players coming in to buy LotR. It will be basically us, the old folks who use to buy LotR again to support this range and then hoping to bring in new players with the excitement we create. So again, GW needs us more than ever. So to price us out from the beginning, just boggles my mind. Wait I take that back, this is GW after all and I expect them to make stupid decisions. Even after all the good will they do, I still am leary of what they can do. Time will tell since we don't know what GW vision is yet of LotR.
So I am hoping to start buying again. Time will tell.
High prices drive out new players and without new players as people drop off the community gets smaller and smaller. The game eventually dies
Although I disagree with the price/unit size changes it is to be expected much like in every industry, however in the past GW seems to have taken a route which is both extremely aggressive and offensive to their customer base. LOTR SBG may be a warband style of game for many competitive gamers, i.e smaller point style where you may only find smaller amounts of units feasible, you may be forgetting the source material. The allure for many people who bought SBG products was the recreation of the large battles from the movies and or books, which is essentially why my friends and myself got into the game. While I do enjoy smaller battles for the time it takes to play them they really do not capture the same feel as the larger battles (despite the headache that massive amounts of units can cause). Perhaps a re-branding to Middle Earth Strategy Skirmish Game would be more appropriate than Strategy Battle Game?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Despite all of this disagreement on GW business decisions, past, present and future, I am happy that the BotFA models as well as OOP models will be released/re-released. This will allow both people to buy new from games workshop, as well as (hopefully) drive down 3rd party seller prices for secondhand models (i.e. ebay).
Mymearan wrote: To play devils advocate for a moment, wouldn't you need multiples of boxes that contain models with different armaments, like Uruk-Hai?
Uruks are SUPER easy to WYSIWYG outside of crossbows. The boxes make equal numbers of pikes, and sword-n-board, which is almost exactly the configuration you would take them in. Two boxes of 12, plus 1-2 blisters of crossbows, and a couple heroes/banner and you have a viable, fluffy, army. :-)
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SnakeSampson wrote: Although I disagree with the price/unit size changes it is to be expected much like in every industry, however in the past GW seems to have taken a route which is both extremely aggressive and offensive to their customer base. LOTR SBG may be a warband style of game for many competitive gamers, i.e smaller point style where you may only find smaller amounts of units feasible, you may be forgetting the source material. The allure for many people who bought SBG products was the recreation of the large battles from the movies and or books, which is essentially why my friends and myself got into the game. While I do enjoy smaller battles for the time it takes to play them they really do not capture the same feel as the larger battles (despite the headache that massive amounts of units can cause). Perhaps a re-branding to Middle Earth Strategy Skirmish Game would be more appropriate than Strategy Battle Game?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Despite all of this disagreement on GW business decisions, past, present and future, I am happy that the BotFA models as well as OOP models will be released/re-released. This will allow both people to buy new from games workshop, as well as (hopefully) drive down 3rd party seller prices for secondhand models (i.e. ebay).
I do think the game grows unwieldy beyond a certain size, but outside of re-creating REALLY fluffy scenarios that would require 1000+ points or more per player, most games are not played at skirmish size either. Sure, 300pts is a fun little game, but the competitive scene plays games, traditionally at 600-700 points, which can feature oh.... 20 models in an elite list, or 70+ models of Goblin town. That isn't skirmish or a tiny game by any stretch... and yet its still CHEAP to build toward that size.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Doug really nailed it with his statements about how warbands, even in bigger SBG games are constructed. I will certainly echo his statement of, one box is all anyone but the most hardcore player would need of any given unit, outside of theme armies you, as a player, choose to build. Unlike say 40k, that one box for $25 may legitimately be the only time you buy "Thing X", which makes the price/value proposition far better as well..
And even then it's too pricey. You get too few models for what you pay and what it gives in return.
2 boxes of minas tirith warriors, commander set, boxes of knights, mounted faramari. Pretty sure it was mentioned here as cheap 500 pts army in this very thread.
That's 29 foot models, 7 mounted models. And that's deliberately avoiding any more exoteric stuff(22£ for one foot and one mounted model? Give me a break. No 25mm scaled normal human sized model is worth that much money. Inflation hasn't been THAT horrible)
For almost half the price you can get excelent perrys models for 46 infantry and 15 cavalry.
Even if you arque LOTR models are superior quality it's not THAT big quality.
And finally. While LOTR is fun game it's not that fun. Just ain't worth the money. So GW priced them out and doesn't seem move to SG do anything to help. Just the opposite.
So there went my plan of restarting the game. Too bad. Sieges were great fun. But it's not fun enough to pay those prices.
I'm happy to see that they are supporting the SBG.
The price change completely killed the WotR game in my area.
It was hard enough to get others involved because of the way companies were formed. But the 33% increase (I swear it was a 50%) put the coup de grace on it.
Most of the armys I'd want to make would need 2 of the current boxes to get what I'd want as a core, and god forbid a Moria army.(Thankfully i have all the goblins i need, i think.)
Mymearan wrote: To play devils advocate for a moment, wouldn't you need multiples of boxes that contain models with different armaments, like Uruk-Hai?
Uruks are SUPER easy to WYSIWYG outside of crossbows. The boxes make equal numbers of pikes, and sword-n-board, which is almost exactly the configuration you would take them in. Two boxes of 12, plus 1-2 blisters of crossbows, and a couple heroes/banner and you have a viable, fluffy, army. :-)
Isengard is a pretty cheap and fun army to play! One box of Uruk-Hai gives you 5 sword & board and 5 pike. One box of Scouts gives you 4 Sword & Board scouts, 4 bow scouts, and 4 sword scouts. That's already like 200 points or so. Add the Commanders pack for a captain, banner, and musician for your first warband, and snag a Lurtz to lead your Scouts warband. That puts you at like 350 points already, not even including the shaman, and under $100. then if you feel like expanding, a pack of 4 Uruk Crossbows and a pack of 4 Uruk Berserkers and a box of Warg riders and maybe a Ugluk & Vrasku will get you to 500 points, and gosh add a box of plastic Orcs and Grishnakh if you want to be fluffy! And then add Saruman to flavor. And we're talking brand new, though you can get plastic Uruk sword/shield and pike warriors for 50 cents apiece on ebay. [edit!] I just realized GW still has the Uruk-Hai Command blister pack w/ captain and banner, which is an even cheaper option than the Finecast Isengard Commanders box set. Gosh, making a good/fun/cheap Isengard army really is possible!
I'll use this moment to pimp a couple auctions I have going for a Minas Tirith force and a Mordor Orc force - if any Dakka member buy-it-nows either or both of these I'll throw in some extra models too. An extra Orc Captain & Banner w/ the orc lot, and a Pippin as Citadel Guard and Boromir with the Minas Tirith lot. http://www.ebay.com/sch/djdoug242/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
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Davor wrote: there will be no new players coming in to buy LotR. It will be basically us, the old folks who use to buy LotR again to support this range and then hoping to bring in new players with the excitement we create.
Honestly, myself, and the 6 other people I play SBG with all started within the past year or two.
People always complain about the prices even though it has the most reasonably priced entry cost of GWs games (only talking GW here)
I'm excited and a lot of other people are too! Gotta finish my moria force and my Gondor and isengard forces! Just need some heroes and an isengard troll and I'm good to go!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Nah... I stand by the fact that SBG is still one of the best miniatures games I have EVER played, and still has one of the cheapest barriers to play ever as well. Sure, it can be pricey if you go for a fringe, all-resin, faction, but 85% of the core armies can have good, fun, playable, and even competitive lists for under $100, which is amazing in this hobby.
I fully agree. For me I believe it's one of the if not best rule sets out from Games-Workshop.
Bobug wrote:I really dont get the whole "i used to play but now i dont because the price is too high" why do you need to keep buying if you already have models to play?
I can think of a few reasons. While yes we don't have to buy anything new to play thing is we still love to buy new shiney stuff. So if the new stuff is priced high compared to what we use to pay for, we just don't find the worth in it now.
Another reason is trying to get to players. Why bother getting back in, while we don't have to buy anything else, if no new players will be coming in again, because of higher prices why bother starting?
I don't know if this would apply but I think it has something to do with high prices. The thing is, GW needs us, we don't need GW. While we would love to have LotR product again we don't need it. GW needs to sell it. Unlike AoS where GW have written the Fantasy players away and are expecting new players coming in to save them, there will be no new players coming in to buy LotR. It will be basically us, the old folks who use to buy LotR again to support this range and then hoping to bring in new players with the excitement we create. So again, GW needs us more than ever. So to price us out from the beginning, just boggles my mind. Wait I take that back, this is GW after all and I expect them to make stupid decisions. Even after all the good will they do, I still am leary of what they can do. Time will tell since we don't know what GW vision is yet of LotR.
So I am hoping to start buying again. Time will tell.
High prices drive out new players and without new players as people drop off the community gets smaller and smaller. The game eventually dies
How are the Hobbit "The Trolls"? I have been thinking about getting them and if they're good that's another cheap army worth mentioning. By my count, it's 405 points for the three with the campfire, so that's a pretty good portion of an army.
Also, they're like $55 online, so yeah: potentially a cheap army.
When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
There is nothing GW could do to that game, save price it way, way lower, that would make me, or most anyone I feel, interested in that game like it used to be.
You need a gateway game, otherwise it has to compete with 40k and... well just 40k these days.
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chiefbigredman wrote: People always complain about the prices even though it has the most reasonably priced entry cost of GWs games (only talking GW here)
I'm excited and a lot of other people are too! Gotta finish my moria force and my Gondor and isengard forces! Just need some heroes and an isengard troll and I'm good to go!
The 2nd hand market is great for LoTR models for highly detailed metals or even cheap plastics.
I use loTR models for my koW armys, minas tirith plastics and goblin town goblins on sprue for $1 each, metal trolls around $25 each for a monster. Characters around $5-$8 each. Metals are easily stripped, put them together and armies are cheap!
As for GW pricing, I think the cav models (with online discount) are around.$AU5 each for a quality cav model which is pretty good in my book (minas tirith knights/warg riders etc)
When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
There is nothing GW could do to that game, save price it way, way lower, that would make me, or most anyone I feel, interested in that game like it used to be.
You need a gateway game, otherwise it has to compete with 40k and... well just 40k these days.
People always complain about the prices even though it has the most reasonably priced entry cost of GWs games (only talking GW here)
It used to be far, far better.
Leaving failcast aside the prices are still low compared to anything 40K has to offer. Additionally, anything you can buy is useful, there are no possessed or Vespids, buy what you like, the system is very balanced with every unit having something to contribute. In fact, lotr does everything AoS wants to do but has always been better at it, that's why I never understood GWs step to a skirmish warhammer game in the first place, they already had a good fantasy skirmisher with balanced and well thought out rules. 40K is not really comparable, since it's Sci-Fi and attracts a different audience.
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
There is nothing GW could do to that game, save price it way, way lower, that would make me, or most anyone I feel, interested in that game like it used to be.
You need a gateway game, otherwise it has to compete with 40k and... well just 40k these days.
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chiefbigredman wrote: People always complain about the prices even though it has the most reasonably priced entry cost of GWs games (only talking GW here)
I'm excited and a lot of other people are too! Gotta finish my moria force and my Gondor and isengard forces! Just need some heroes and an isengard troll and I'm good to go!
It used to be far, far better.
Yes it did used to be more read-only priced but it's still the best value of GW games. I was the same age give or take as you when it came out.
Lord of the rings is what got me into mini wargaming. I got a box of uruk-hai warriors as my first thing and then the mines of moria set and then some harad warriors and on it went.
I'm currently in the process of painting up the rest of my isengard force and getting some more models.
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
There is nothing GW could do to that game, save price it way, way lower, that would make me, or most anyone I feel, interested in that game like it used to be.
You need a gateway game, otherwise it has to compete with 40k and... well just 40k these days.
I know you're enjoying remembering the good ol' days, as a lot of people are in this thread, but cavalry were never ever ever 12 in a box. They were always 6 in a box.
In fact, adjusting for inflation, a $20 box of 6 Riders of Rohan or 6 Warg Riders from fifteen years ago is about in line with the $29 they are today, and they remain a fantastic value - and those are the original cavalry releases. (Since then, GW has released plastic Galadhrim knights, Minas Tirith knights, Dol Amroth knights, Morgul knights, Easterling Kataphrakts, Haradrim Raiders - all reasonably priced with options and extra bits and often casualty models and other fun stuff on the sprues.)
As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army - to complain that it now costs a few dollars more than it did in 2001 to play a game demonstratesa lack of knowledge regarding how the game actually plays, and the fact that it remains the cheapest "gateway game" that GW offers. As has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you can have a good army for under $100 for almost every faction.
Don't make the mistake of confusing "me" with "the world", because when you remember when you could buy stuff for cheaper does not mean that no one else ever will buy models again.
edit: I hadn't looked at 40k prices in a long, long time, so I went ahead and checked Space Marines, and had to double check that I wasn't viewing the Australian site by accident. People are really paying $40 for a Tactical Squad and $46 for a 5 man Devastator Squad?
Then yeah, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are infinitely cheaper to play than 40k. Even the pricier Hobbit plastics are cheaper, and, in my opinion, look better and are for a better game system.
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
Sure it is! Stop focusing on price per mini and look at price per army. Its easy to build a playable army for less than $100US. Try doing that in 40K or WFB.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
You are certainly entitled to setting your own "line in the sand" when it comes to miniature prices. If we are comparing across GW's product range, there are plenty of 40K and AoS plastic foot figures that are selling for over $10US each, compared to $2-4 each for LOTR and Hobbit plastic foot figures.
It used to be far, far better.
Yes, and gasoline used to cost 10¢ a gallon. No one likes paying more for anything and I'll even admit GW price increases probably outstrip actual production cost increases but that's life. If you don't feel you can spend money on the SBG anymore that's your decision but I don't think you are correct that this is a universal feeling. I think in general the SBG prices are very comparable to several other popular games like Warmahords or Infinity. Buy a starter set and one or two more boxes for either game and the prices are very comparable to a SBG army.
The secondary market is a very good one. Harad metals and Perry twins orcs are shamefully overpriced, along with the mythical metal ent (not treebeard, the standard one). These aside, you golden.
This is actually another thing that makes me look at GW with my usual contempt. I did not use ebay before starting lotr, but because of unavailable minis and failcast I switched to ebay. Now I will look for my eldar transports there, too Is like blood bowl, they put it out again now, after years of people converting or buying from competitors. What about, you know, do not create that secondary market in the first place?
That said, is true that the models are of great value. I have to struggle to find an useless mini in lotr. Perhaps the Balrog*. If you buy a unit of dwarf warriors, you will buy 4 of each of the 3 kind of models inside (Two handed, shield, bow) and each one will have a different role and use. Same the rangers. with two boxes, you will have 6x4 different units and much fun learning how to combine their use.
We could use a whole thread on how to load out orcs and to make them work (but remember that when there is a whip, there is a way).
*Use with it the Hobbit rules for monsters, and perhaps houserule couple of Might points.
As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army - to complain that it now costs a few dollars more than it did in 2001 to play a game demonstratesa lack of knowledge regarding how the game actually plays, and the fact that it remains the cheapest "gateway game" that GW offers. As has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you can have a good army for under $100 for almost every faction.
TL;DR:
1) The game has often required more than 24 infantry for scenarios, and indeed GW has sold in much bigger army bundles; 2) The world has moved on and "cheap for GW" is not the same as "cheap".
I do know the SBG, I've played and loved it since 2001. One of the scenarios in the very first rulebook - The Last Alliance - called for TEN boxes of Moria Goblins, 240 figures, and while that was insane, the game has not been shy about putting 50-70 figures in a number of battle scenarios since then. IIRC Helm's Deep required 50+ Uruks. Indeed, GW used to sell a Rohan army of 48 infantry and 18 cavalry - 5 boxes.
If you go back to look at tournament lists from pre-warbands days, hero-poor forces like Rohan and Moria often used troop-spam lists requiring more than one box. The funniest remains the wood-elf spam list with about 70 of them...
I like Warbands, I think it's thematic and in the spirit of the game in the sense of the core of the rules centring on heroes leading and influencing bands of troops, but I also go back to those scenarios and bigger games. Scenario play is more central, for me, to the notion of gaming in Middle-Earth than balanced points matches.
War of the Ring also needed a lot of boxes - I'd say the most basic viable force was 2 boxes of infantry and 1 of cavalry plus a hero. Plenty of the armies pictured in the rulebook are much bigger. I'm not sure I've even heard of anyone completing a Moria force...
Incidentally, there's a neat mass-battle version of the rules in the Alamo supplement for Legends of the Old West if you can track it down. Unit-based, 5-8 units of 12 would be ideal. Obviously Courage checks are taken against the unit rather than individuals, and the core innovation is that everyone hits on a 4+, high Fight values attacking first.
As for costs, it's a matter of record that cavalry prices have increased by over 20 years' worth of UK inflation in just over a decade, and infantry prices have increased by almost 30 years worth of inflation in the same time (£10 to £18 for 6 cavalry and £12 to £30 for 24 infantry since 2004). I reject the notion that such price increases represent good value for money. Source is the Bank of England inflation calculator if you wish to plug the numbers in yourself.
Many of the sculpts are beautiful and still hold their own, and I appreciate that the newer sets with more parts are more expensive to tool, but it's reasonable to say that many of the older ones - Moria Goblins, Mordor Orcs - are showing their age (and weren't that great to begin with). Hobbit sculpts - Men of Dale and Mirkwood Rangers are rather nice, but the Mirkwood Palace Guard have awful lumpy cloaks, comparable to 20-year old metal historicals, and the Grim Hammers are... ok.
The gaming world has moved on in the last few years - those price increases have been against a background of a huge increase in the range of Dark Ages and Medieval plastics. If you don't mind proxies (and a lot of us have used historical proxies all this time), a couple of boxes of those will give 5-6 warbands plus captains, banners and horn-blowers for £40.
Yes, you struggle to find better-value fantasy figures... and certainly the ones you want. No argument there, and I'm very fond of my LotR dwarfs and elves.
I'm genuinely torn on the army books - I appreciate that they provide better balance and some much needed options in many of the armies (Rohan was rubbish for years in the 2000s), but as "the rulebook guy" in the group, £85 is expensive. The full rules plus stats bundle is now £135, with There and Back Again on the way, and that's multiples of what most other companies charge.
Again, the gaming world has moved on - Wyrd Games will sell me a Malifaux core rulebook for £10, a full Malifaux rulebook plus stats for all factions for £30, or the wave books for another £30 each (again all factions). But stat, upgrade and option cards are also free in the boxes, and you can buy a single-faction/single-wave deck for £6. The core ruleset is free at the moment on DriveThruRPG, so today you can start playing for the cost of a starter set. No direct comparison because it plays with fewer models, but you take my point about the cost of the rules?
I can start Saga with a £25 rulebook, a £22 box of plastics and some rip-off dice for £12 (everyone I know has made their own Saga dice).
Horses for courses - I await the new material with interest.
Yeah, the balrog, Sauron and Smaug might be models that aren't really useful in the standard game, like Tom Bombadil they should be reserved for scenarios. However, who buys a Moria army and doesn't put a Balrog in the shopping cart at some point? It's still cheap enough to get it.
Concerning prices: I was also mad about lotr prices 5 years ago. They were rising every year and then they cut the boxes in half. And for the hobbit they released overpriced failcast stuff, while they obviousely realized that it is of inferior quality and replaced failcast in their other systems.
However, the prices for lotr plastic boxes and hobbit boxes didn't rise since then, often enough you find people selling lotr stuff on ebay for higher prices than they are on the GW page, probably because people can't believe that they still have the same prices like 5 years ago over there...
Momotaro wrote: scenarios,
scenarios
scenarios
scenarios
Scenario play
Yeah, any number of scenarios, including ones you can invent yourself, can include any number of models, sure.
Momotaro wrote: If you go back to look at tournament lists from pre-warbands days,
Momotaro wrote: I like Warbands, I think it's thematic and in the spirit of the game in the sense of the core of the rules centring on heroes leading and influencing bands of troops,
Yeah, that's how one plays pick-up-and-play SBG. Modern SBG uses the Warbands rules, and it's fairly cheap to get into.
Kind of a crap ruleset, and it was written to handle those "big games" as you mentioned the 240 model Moria scenario which is basically unplayable in SBG. Thankfully it's gone so is a non-issue.
Momotaro wrote: Again, the gaming world has moved on - Wyrd Games will sell me a Malifaux core rulebook for £10, a full Malifaux rulebook plus stats for all factions for £30, or the wave books for another £30 each (again all factions). B
I can start Saga with a £25 rulebook, a £22 box of plastics and some rip-off dice for £12 (everyone I know has made their own Saga dice).
Yeah, but I don't like Malifaux minis or rules, and I do like Saga, but I prefer the Perry style LOTR plastics versus the chunky Foundry/Citadel style Gripping Beast models.
I mean, I can go buy some crap TooFatLardies ruleset for super cheap and use tin flats from 1972 and 25 cent cans of craft store chunky glossy enamel paint. Or play some ancient WRG ruleset with grains of rice or pieces of cardboard. But why?
This is SBG. The rules and models are great. We're in the SBG N&R thread. Why must everything devolve into a price comparison? What point are you trying to prove?
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
There is nothing GW could do to that game, save price it way, way lower, that would make me, or most anyone I feel, interested in that game like it used to be.
You need a gateway game, otherwise it has to compete with 40k and... well just 40k these days.
I know you're enjoying remembering the good ol' days, as a lot of people are in this thread, but cavalry were never ever ever 12 in a box. They were always 6 in a box.
In fact, adjusting for inflation, a $20 box of 6 Riders of Rohan or 6 Warg Riders from fifteen years ago is about in line with the $29 they are today, and they remain a fantastic value - and those are the original cavalry releases. (Since then, GW has released plastic Galadhrim knights, Minas Tirith knights, Dol Amroth knights, Morgul knights, Easterling Kataphrakts, Haradrim Raiders - all reasonably priced with options and extra bits and often casualty models and other fun stuff on the sprues.)
As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army - to complain that it now costs a few dollars more than it did in 2001 to play a game demonstratesa lack of knowledge regarding how the game actually plays, and the fact that it remains the cheapest "gateway game" that GW offers. As has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you can have a good army for under $100 for almost every faction.
Don't make the mistake of confusing "me" with "the world", because when you remember when you could buy stuff for cheaper does not mean that no one else ever will buy models again.
edit: I hadn't looked at 40k prices in a long, long time, so I went ahead and checked Space Marines, and had to double check that I wasn't viewing the Australian site by accident. People are really paying $40 for a Tactical Squad and $46 for a 5 man Devastator Squad?
Then yeah, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are infinitely cheaper to play than 40k. Even the pricier Hobbit plastics are cheaper, and, in my opinion, look better and are for a better game system.
All this talk about pricing and I'm just sitting here thinking about how many different things I'm going to buy...
Enough terrain kits to rebuild Osgiliath? Yep.
An entire Mordor army to fight my Gondor? Sure.
A Rangers of the North army? You bet.
More Lothlorien for my wife? Absolutely.
How about a couple of The Hobbit armies? Yes.
Oh, and WoTR movement trays. PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE bring those back!!!
Seriously, I'm really excited. After a small discount from my FLGS, I'm betting I can get all of that for less than a typical tournament sized 40K army.
MangoMadness wrote: The 2nd hand market is great for LoTR models for highly detailed metals or even cheap plastics.
I use loTR models for my koW armys, minas tirith plastics and goblin town goblins on sprue for $1 each, metal trolls around $25 each for a monster. Characters around $5-$8 each. Metals are easily stripped, put them together and armies are cheap!
As for GW pricing, I think the cav models (with online discount) are around.$AU5 each for a quality cav model which is pretty good in my book (minas tirith knights/warg riders etc)
Except that 5AUS is like 10 CAN which is terrible.
I'd play Lotr if people locally played it but GW with their one man stores aren't exactly good to find games in and FLGS' you gotta compete with other games.
Another nitpick I had was the Dwarves from the Hobbit set were smaller then the Lotr dwarves (being the same size as Lotr hobbits) so if I did buy Dwarves I'd have to convert them, as the scale is all wrong.
Rainbow Dash wrote: Another nitpick I had was the Dwarves from the Hobbit set were smaller then the Lotr dwarves (being the same size as Lotr hobbits) so if I did buy Dwarves I'd have to convert them, as the scale is all wrong.
I'm confused on this one. Everyone else was grumpy that the Hobbit dwarves were slightly taller than the LOTR dwarves.
Example: Erebor Grim Hammer from The Hobbit versus LOTR Dwarf Warrior
Even though I mentioned earlier in this thread about not liking the prices. I've never had massive problems with the price of LOTR plastics.
However, when I said pricing hurt The Hobbit, I was talking specifically about The Hobbit releases.
Rivendell cavalry at $50 for 6 (compared to $35 I think for the older cavalry sets).
Mirkwood Elves at $40 for a box (compared to $25 for LotR sets).
PLASTIC monopose characters at $25.
Escape from Goblin Town at $125. I don't know what Mines of Moria weighed in at, but I remember it being cheap enough that even here in Australia I impulse bought it. Goblin Town is way too expensive for people to impulse buy it.
It was also around that time (maybe a bit earlier?) we started getting transferred to failcast from metal, resulting in price rises and quality reductions for anything not in plastic.
Collecting a set of characters, say the Dwarves, Gandalf and Bilbo, was just vastly too expensive.
I think that pricing really hurt The Hobbit, along with people who didn't like the movies and the lack of a good value starter set.
I worry for GW as they jump back in to Middle-earth if everything is going to be at FW prices. Sure, it doesn't matter if you don't care about GW's involvement in ME, but personally I want GW to do well with LOTR and The Hobbit to encourage them to keep supporting it. If for no other reason than I'd really like some plastic Gundabad Orcs
I agree on some of those, Rivendell cav is pricy - but it is an incredible set. Morgul Knights and Galadhrim Knights and Easterling Kataphrakts are $37 for six, and are worth it at that price. It IS nice that the Rivendell set has options to make a captain, a banner bearer, and gives you neat casualty models.
However I thought the Mirkwood kit was overpriced til I bought one - probably one of the best plastic kits GW has ever made. The engineering on it is insanely good. But, they're a redundant kit; if you don't want those sculpts, the plastic wood elves kit is cheaper.
Also thankfully most the metal kits never transitioned to finecast, so there are still tons of metal blisters still available for LOTR.
Mines of Moria was a great starter set ($60 when it first came out), but the Hobbit kit blows it away in terms of model quality. TBH there doesn't really need to be a starter set.
At least Forge World prices are far, far cheaper than Finecast, which is why I am very happy that we'll actually be getting a price reduction along with an increase in quality for the new FW releases.
Rainbow Dash wrote: Another nitpick I had was the Dwarves from the Hobbit set were smaller then the Lotr dwarves (being the same size as Lotr hobbits) so if I did buy Dwarves I'd have to convert them, as the scale is all wrong.
I'm confused on this one. Everyone else was grumpy that the Hobbit dwarves were slightly taller than the LOTR dwarves.
Example: Erebor Grim Hammer from The Hobbit versus LOTR Dwarf Warrior
Does anyone still have the cardboard cut out figures that Battle Games in Middle Earth used to give you to make up the numbers for that issue's scenario that the sprue alone didn't give you?
Rainbow Dash wrote: Another nitpick I had was the Dwarves from the Hobbit set were smaller then the Lotr dwarves (being the same size as Lotr hobbits) so if I did buy Dwarves I'd have to convert them, as the scale is all wrong.
Momotaro wrote: 1) The game has often required more than 24 infantry for scenarios, and indeed GW has sold in much bigger army bundles;
This is true, and I'm generally a scenario player myself (as opposed to a "points match" player) but there are also lots of smaller scenarios so large numbers of figures are not required to play either way.
2) The world has moved on and "cheap for GW" is not the same as "cheap".
Like I said earlier, while the later Hobbit stuff is more expensive, I think overall the SBG is comparably priced to some other popular games like Warmahords or Infinity. Buy a couple boxes of figures and one or two blister packs, and they are pretty close in price.
One of the scenarios in the very first rulebook - The Last Alliance - called for TEN boxes of Moria Goblins, 240 figures, and while that was insane, the game has not been shy about putting 50-70 figures in a number of battle scenarios since then. IIRC Helm's Deep required 50+ Uruks. Indeed, GW used to sell a Rohan army of 48 infantry and 18 cavalry - 5 boxes.
I'm a long time scenario players and I've played some of those big scenarios. We always treated those big scenarios as group projects where the whole group would pool their miniatures collections to stage them. I'm a rabid LOTR fan and collector but while I could afford to buy more figures I never seriously considered buying six dozen Riders of Rohan, or 240 Moria Goblins all on my own.
War of the Ring also needed a lot of boxes - I'd say the most basic viable force was 2 boxes of infantry and 1 of cavalry plus a hero. Plenty of the armies pictured in the rulebook are much bigger. I'm not sure I've even heard of anyone completing a Moria force...
War of the Ring is a totally different game and I'm not sure its relevant to the issue of the cost of the SBG. I agree playing WotR is far from cheap but how does it compar to costs for WFB or KoW (those being the closest comparable systems)?
Incidentally, there's a neat mass-battle version of the rules in the Alamo supplement for Legends of the Old West if you can track it down.
I've got the Alamo supplement but never really read it. Sounds like I need to dig it out and take a look.
I reject the notion that such price increases represent good value for money.
Eh, you can prove they price increase is not justifiable based on inflation. Value for the money is a subjective decision and while you reject them as a bad value I still find them a good value for me based on the enjoyment I get out of the game.
Many of the sculpts are beautiful and still hold their own, and I appreciate that the newer sets with more parts are more expensive to tool, but it's reasonable to say that many of the older ones - Moria Goblins, Mordor Orcs - are showing their age (and weren't that great to begin with). Hobbit sculpts - Men of Dale and Mirkwood Rangers are rather nice, but the Mirkwood Palace Guard have awful lumpy cloaks, comparable to 20-year old metal historicals, and the Grim Hammers are... ok.
Any range is going to have some figures that better or worse than others. I actually like the plastic Mordor Orcs although I was never wild about the Moria Goblins and I agree the Mirkwood Palace Guard could be better. Unfortunately, I don't think we are ever going to see any new plastics, though, and IMO replacing the old plastic Goblins or Orcs with new resin figures is going to be really cost prohibitive.
The gaming world has moved on in the last few years - those price increases have been against a background of a huge increase in the range of Dark Ages and Medieval plastics. If you don't mind proxies (and a lot of us have used historical proxies all this time), a couple of boxes of those will give 5-6 warbands plus captains, banners and horn-blowers for £40.
Certainly, second party historical figures are viable for just about any of the human factions. Since in large part Tolkein based them on historical factions. While I generally like the movie aesthetics this does provide a way of someone with tighter finances to get into the game. Unfortunatly, finding usable plastic non-humans is a little harder, if you want something even close to the more realistic look of the official figures.
I'm genuinely torn on the army books -
This is one area where I can't disagree. GW's big, hardcover rulebooks are too expensive. I didn't buy the current Hobbit rulebook for years, until I happened on a copy marked down to under $50. The LOTR army books are not bad, unless like me you want or need to buy all of them, but I'm worried about the eventual selling price of this new hard cover "There and Back Again" supplement.
judgedoug wrote: As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army - to complain that it now costs a few dollars more than it did in 2001 to play a game demonstratesa lack of knowledge regarding how the game actually plays, and the fact that it remains the cheapest "gateway game" that GW offers. As has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you can have a good army for under $100 for almost every faction.
Don't make the mistake of confusing "me" with "the world", because when you remember when you could buy stuff for cheaper does not mean that no one else ever will buy models again.
edit: I hadn't looked at 40k prices in a long, long time, so I went ahead and checked Space Marines, and had to double check that I wasn't viewing the Australian site by accident. People are really paying $40 for a Tactical Squad and $46 for a 5 man Devastator Squad?
Then yeah, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are infinitely cheaper to play than 40k. Even the pricier Hobbit plastics are cheaper, and, in my opinion, look better and are for a better game system.
And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?
Add in boromir. boom 29e for 2 models. Guards of the Fountain Court? 21e for 4 infantry models.
And just because it is cheaper than 40k doesn't make it reasonably priced. Just because there's even more horribly overpriced doesn't make overpriced non overpriced. I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
Sure it is! Stop focusing on price per mini and look at price per army. Its easy to build a playable army for less than $100US. Try doing that in 40K or WFB.
Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.
Lotr is a skirmish game and can be played on a small scale. You need a hero and his band, that's it if you want. Pretty cheap to get into and expand from there. Most armies I've seen are about 3 bands with three heroes. That's still very cheap.
40k these days, I see a minimum of 1500 points on average (usually 1850-2k). That is a crap ton of cash, unless you got into it when it was cheap like many of us did (remember when that land raider was $50? I do ) Cheapest army I've seen is deathwing or grey knights. Deathwing can be done with 2 drop pods, 2 dreadnaughts, 4 term squads, a character, etc. A person could buy 4 dv term sets (usually 25) and 2 abl dreads (25) on ebay for fairly cheap. This army would only cost a couple hundred bucks.
The only game gw has that is cheaper than lotr is aos, and that I'd because you can legally play one model if you wish, no matter what your opponent has.
tneva82 wrote: And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?
Again, you only need one box or warriors and one hero blister to play the game. Two boxes and two heroes will get you a nice force. Sure theirs lots more figures you can buy (I've spent literally thousands of dollars on LOTR since it was first releases) but you don't need those figures to play the game.
I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.
And I've done that.
LOTR:
1 x Rohan Warriors box
1 x Riders of Rohan box
1 x Eomer
1 x Grimbold
TOTAL $82
WARMACHINE
1 x Khador Starter Box
1 x Khador Iron Fang Pikeman
1 x Khador Manhunter
TOTAL $110
Two playable forces of approximately the same size and not dissimilar prices. The only area that SBG is obviously more expensive is the big hardcover rulebooks. Certainly you could build a more expensive LOTR force by picking the all metal or finecast figures, like wise you could probably shave a few dollars off the Warmachine force if you cherry picked the cheapest options. Overall as far as I can see, however, the costs look pretty comparable. I'm also sure their are cheaper game options you could find (maybe Saga?), but their are more expensive one's, too (40K, KOW). Looking at GW products, SBG is cheap. Looking at the gaming industry as a whole, SBG is still pretty average.
Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.
No. Sure someone could play SBG with 100-150 figures but the game isn't designed to really handle that well. Entry cost is important. Average cost for a playable army is important. If you really want to play big battles in Middle Earth I'd use the War of the Ring rules, rather than the SBG rules, and even then I would maintain the costs are similar or cheaper than WFB (8th ed or 9th Age) or Mantic's Kings or War so again your argument fails.
Yes, GW has raised their prices since LOTR was first introduced. Yes, the increases have arguably exceeded inflation or justifiable production costs. Its still a cheap game for GW and pretty similar in price to many comparable games.
Rainbow Dash wrote: When the game came out I was like 12 and it was far cheaper then the other two, which made it great, now it isn't.
Sure it is! Stop focusing on price per mini and look at price per army. Its easy to build a playable army for less than $100US. Try doing that in 40K or WFB.
22 bucks (or so) for like 24 models, that was the plastic standard (or 12 cavalry) then they split the boxes into 12 and 6 and charged almost double.
Absolutely not.
You are certainly entitled to setting your own "line in the sand" when it comes to miniature prices. If we are comparing across GW's product range, there are plenty of 40K and AoS plastic foot figures that are selling for over $10US each, compared to $2-4 each for LOTR and Hobbit plastic foot figures.
It used to be far, far better.
Yes, and gasoline used to cost 10¢ a gallon. No one likes paying more for anything and I'll even admit GW price increases probably outstrip actual production cost increases but that's life. If you don't feel you can spend money on the SBG anymore that's your decision but I don't think you are correct that this is a universal feeling. I think in general the SBG prices are very comparable to several other popular games like Warmahords or Infinity. Buy a starter set and one or two more boxes for either game and the prices are very comparable to a SBG army.
I like your challenge, what are the rules, the points?
I like to think my veteranship gives me an edge.
Get back to me, and upon completion I will make a thread in the painting section.
I don't think it caused people to quit playing, Davor... Its just generally felt to be a pretty inferior game, that to the uninformed, might make them thing SBG is the game people are referring to when they mention Lord of the Rings miniatures.
As rules go, i've almost never found someone speaking ill of SBG mechanically. Price debates, etc... aside, SBG is rock solid.
judgedoug wrote: As has been discussed multiple times in the last page or two, anyone who plays SBG knows that one old box, or two new boxes, is more than enough core infantry for entire army
And anybody who plays the game knows you don't need just 2 box of old plastics. You do know there's all sort of other models right?
Yes, that's why I said _core infantry_, doe the specific complaints that four and a half years ago there was a price rise.
tneva82 wrote: And just because it is cheaper than 40k doesn't make it reasonably priced. Just because there's even more horribly overpriced doesn't make overpriced non overpriced. I presume you are aware there's other manufacturers than GW right? You need to compare at miniature industry as a whole. Not within one company.
Of course, I own probably... quick estimate... five thousand... or more? non-GW miniatures. gosh, probably almost a thousand WSS figs. And as much as I wish the Perry bros could keep on sculpting M-E and also at Perry prices, it's just not the case. But LOTR is not only the cheapest GW game to get into and play, it's still pretty affordable compared to other industry standards such as WMH and Malifaux. Right now someone could go buy an Isengard captain/banner blister and a box of Uruk-Hai warriors and have almost 200 points for less than $40. Now, if we start dipping into Bolt Action and such, and SBG starts looking not as affordable, sure. For example, I drive a Camaro because it looks awesome and it's incredibly powerful, and I know I paid a lot more than a Honda Civic which, sure, is more economical. My Camaro's 326 hp v6 engine is far superior, just as SBG's engine is far superior to most other games. The Camaro looks way cooler than a Civic, just as LOTR figures look way better than the more economical Gripping Beast dark age plastics. Probably not the best analogy, but I'm typing quickly while I'm at work The point being that SBG is a little pricier than a lot of other companies - but the rules and models are some of the best on the market. The only other company that I think matches the _overall_ strength of SBG's line is Mierce. The only other ruleset that I think is as elegant and solid are Kings of War and Terminator. (and Starship Troopers, may it rest in peace)
tneva82 wrote: Size of army is dependant on player. Price per model IS only applicable comparison within miniature scale.
Well, sure - but this is a problem within every miniatures line using every type of material. SBG is no exception. It's more expensive to build a horde army of finecast models (my lake town army, for example, which was painful to buy). But the same comparison can be made with the aforementioned Perry models... it's cheaper to play Bolt Action with Desert Rats or DAK because Perry makes them in plastic, and they'd probably be "regulars", versus buying Perry Italians which might be "inpexerienced" and only available in metal. It naturally would have more models in the army and cost more due to the material.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: But, but.... don't you understand Doug.... a 1000pts of SBG is more expensive than a 25ss game of Malifaux. :-p
Haha, and it's more expensive to do Waterloo at 1:1 scale as well
But seriously though, I too yearn for pricing from 5, 10, 15 years ago, sure. But those days are gone (sort of - as has been pointed out a lot, FW resin is considerably cheaper than Finecast, so we may be getting a series of price decreases!) The great thing is that if any new player wants to get in on the fun, SBG is still quite affordable to play. And there's you and me and all kinds of other people who will happily help someone, if they're like, "hey, I want to drop $100 and have a good starter force for SBG, what should I get?" and we can all help them choose what things to buy to get the best bang for their buck.
I don't think this was mentioned yet but if not here's what I could gather on what models are going to be coming out next:
Saruman and grima kit (Finecast)
Scouring of the Shire set (Metal)
The Shade (Metal)
Not sure if they will all come out on the same day but 1 model per source book so far anyways. They said they will re-release more models down the road but not sure which ones.
chiefbigredman wrote: Just an update on what I could gather on what models are going to be coming out next:
Saruman and grima kit (Not sure on material but whatever it was last produced in which I believe metal)
Scouring of the Shire set (Metal)
The Shade (again unsure of material)
Not sure if they will all come out on the same day but 1 model per source book so far anyways. They said they will re-release more models down the road but not sure which ones.
Saruman and Grima combo kit was a Finecast pack.
Shade was re-released in metal at Warhammer Fest so will be metal from GW again.
Shade was re-released in metal at Warhammer Fest so will be metal from GW again.
Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though
chiefbigredman wrote: Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though
You're right! Yes, the big news was that they found a usable master to make new molds, or something along those lines, but not in time to make it for W-Fest.
Well, I am hoping that the Mahud King Mounted is in the pipeline for a re-release, as its something I am waiting for. I am not diving to that army-list's purchases, until I can get him, and also Mahud models with blowpipes.
Like Doug, I hate doing a project piece-meal, so I would rather set aside money and then go in hard when I can make the list I would actually want.
Btw... do people use the Nazgul on Fellbeast as a catch-all proxy to represent any of the Nazgul who can take a Fellbeast as an option?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Btw... do people use the Nazgul on Fellbeast as a catch-all proxy to represent any of the Nazgul who can take a Fellbeast as an option?
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
chiefbigredman wrote: Ya I wasn't sure if it was metal or finecast just updated the post. I don't think that Shade was available for purchase at warhammer fest but it was on display? I could be wrong about that though
You're right! Yes, the big news was that they found a usable master to make new molds, or something along those lines, but not in time to make it for W-Fest.
Makes sense. Did GWnot say they "destroy" the old mods? Guess that's not true lol
Going to be making an order to GW soon if they release the fallen realms book
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
There was also a guide in a WD from like 4-5 years ago about converting them up. Most involved chopping the respective Nazgul off their metal horses (except for the Witchking, Kamul the Eastering and a few others who just got the greenstuff treatment to do their key details).
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
Thanks!
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There was also a guide in a WD from like 4-5 years ago about converting them up. Most involved chopping the respective Nazgul off their metal horses (except for the Witchking, Kamul the Eastering and a few others who just got the greenstuff treatment to do their key details).
Yeah... I'll get right on that.... cutting up a $30+ miniature for a head-swap. :-p
And yeah, as soon as Fallen Kingdoms book comes back in stock i'll be ordering a bunch of stuff too. At this point I can make virtually the lists I want, with only the Mahud King on Camel really missing and without a decent proxy, so i'll get what I can.
chiefbigredman wrote: The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...
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CptJake wrote: I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
Thanks!
I also heartily recommend the plastic Troll kit - comes with a ton of options (several weapons, helmets, armor, heads, and even drums), the plastic Ent with alternate faces (and dead orcs!), and the plastic Balrog kit (with weapon options). Some of my favorite plastic kits.
chiefbigredman wrote: The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...
Technically cheaper for you to buy it in Canada be $58 USD if you got it here at regular price....
Canada is the greatest place ever eh! Beer hockey and ice fishing is all I do! (That's actually not a lie lol)
chiefbigredman wrote: The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Or $62 in real money... Yeah I've got a problem, I've got a plastic Balrog and 2 metal Balrogs (one of each post), plus 2 plastic Fell-beasts and one of each of the two metal Fell-beasts...
Technically cheaper for you to buy it in Canada be $58 USD if you got it here at regular price....
Canada is the greatest place ever eh! Beer hockey and ice fishing is all I do! (That's actually not a lie lol)
Don't forget, "producing the greatest wrestlers to ever live" part of Canada. :-)
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'll vouch for the troll kit. I've already built four, and they are great renditions of the film aesthetic, and build some cool options.
I've got three plastic Isengard trolls and 2 metal Isengard trolls - had to make all possible combinations
judgedoug wrote: The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I didn't know that. I've got the original "tail standing" Nazgul on Fell Beast model, and a separate "tail sitting" Witch King on Fell Beast which has a different rider (WK with helmet and morning star) and a different head for the Fell Beast IIRC.
judgedoug wrote: The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I didn't know that. I've got the original "tail standing" Nazgul on Fell Beast model, and a separate "tail sitting" Witch King on Fell Beast which has a different rider (WK with helmet and morning star) and a different head for the Fell Beast IIRC.
plus the plastic flying Fell-beast actually has the reigns for the Nazgul to hold!
Witch King of Angmar with flaming sword OR Nazgul (with two different head and arm options)
two different neck/head options (with armor option)
two different lengths of reigns depending on neck/head chosen
judgedoug wrote: The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I didn't know that. I've got the original "tail standing" Nazgul on Fell Beast model, and a separate "tail sitting" Witch King on Fell Beast which has a different rider (WK with helmet and morning star) and a different head for the Fell Beast IIRC.
plus the plastic flying Fell-beast actually has the reigns for the Nazgul to hold!
Witch King of Angmar with flaming sword OR Nazgul (with two different head and arm options)
two different neck/head options (with armor option)
two different lengths of reigns depending on neck/head chosen
That's one of my favourite kits I always thought it only had the two options for heads (witch king or nameless nazgul) but I guess I was mistaken!
I have the witch king on foot model that is in the witch king pack that's out now (mounted and on foot) but lost the top of that giant flail so would not mind another version maybe a fell beast is an option!
chiefbigredman wrote: I have the witch king on foot model that is in the witch king pack that's out now (mounted and on foot) but lost the top of that giant flail so would not mind another version maybe a fell beast is an option!
I think I may have an extra one on foot w/ flail if you want it! I'll have to search around for him.
chiefbigredman wrote: I have the witch king on foot model that is in the witch king pack that's out now (mounted and on foot) but lost the top of that giant flail so would not mind another version maybe a fell beast is an option!
I think I may have an extra one on foot w/ flail if you want it! I'll have to search around for him.
Ah its okay man! Thanks for the offer tho! I'm just going to greenstuff a flail (or try at least)
I'm patiently (or impatiently actually) awaiting for new releases for the GW site....hoping new stuff for today!
chiefbigredman wrote: I have the witch king on foot model that is in the witch king pack that's out now (mounted and on foot) but lost the top of that giant flail so would not mind another version maybe a fell beast is an option!
I think I may have an extra one on foot w/ flail if you want it! I'll have to search around for him.
Ah its okay man! Thanks for the offer tho! I'm just going to greenstuff a flail (or try at least)
I'm patiently (or impatiently actually) awaiting for new releases for the GW site....hoping new stuff for today!
Today will be interesting, because officially the only NEW releases this week are a couple hobby things (tech paints, and bases iirc), but SBG items aren't being considered "new releases" per se, so we might get our weekly drip of new stuff.
Honestly, if Fallen Kingdoms book comes back in today, I will be happy, and will also start snagging my Harad stuff.
I expect next week we'll see the Sarumon/Grima pack as it was already in the cooker at WarhammerFest. Beyond that... something else to accompany the Free Peoples and Angmar books.
Today will be interesting, because officially the only NEW releases this week are a couple hobby things (tech paints, and bases iirc), but SBG items aren't being considered "new releases" per se, so we might get our weekly drip of new stuff.
Honestly, if Fallen Kingdoms book comes back in today, I will be happy, and will also start snagging my Harad stuff.
I expect next week we'll see the Sarumon/Grima pack as it was already in the cooker at WarhammerFest. Beyond that... something else to accompany the Free Peoples and Angmar books.
Well id imagine fallen realms will be today along with the saruman/grima pack.
With the free peoples pack it'll be the shire pack and the shade with the angmar one.
I'd imagine they won't tell people like they didn't last week
Both of those went in, and out, of stock twice in the last week. Hopefully GW takes note of that.
I just know I check once or twice a day to see if anything else has slipped back into stock. I think i'm going to start buying stuff again soon because it seems like demand is still there, and stock in general seems low.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Both of those went in, and out, of stock twice in the last week. Hopefully GW takes note of that. .
I'm sure they're aware of how many they sell.... the question for us is how many are they producing.
Ya this is key...how many did they actually produce for their stocks in each country.
Canada has the new models still in stock as well ss the mordor book but kingdoms of men is out of stock (good thing I already had a copy from a local shop from a while ago) and then fallen realms has been out of stock/unavailable for ever now.
I went to GW Dublin a few days ago. they said they're getting a full laketown board and the models will be in stock again when MESBG is out. only ME product in the shop is a Smaug on display.
Da krimson barun wrote: I went to GW Dublin a few days ago. they said they're getting a full laketown board and the models will be in stock again when MESBG is out. only ME product in the shop is a Smaug on display.
That's good to hear, maybe this will re ignite a bit of hype for the game here, even if only for a short period.
By the way there will be a Hobbit tournament in Gamers World Dublin (just across the way from gw in Jervis) on August 6th, for any irish users interested.
I might pick up the new hardback book, but I think I'll be sticking with the miniatures collection I amassed back in the day. The prices of the SBG have just grown too much in comparison to the other games I play these days.
Luckily I have enough Gondor and Mordor, plus a smattering of Allies, to last me. Always did want a full-fledged Angmar force, though. And man, if they ever put out affordable plastics of the Mirkwood Elves from the Battle of Five Armies...
But no, just the cost of a single character these days is practically an entire box of minis from Fireforge or Gripping Beast.
judgedoug wrote: I'm hoping that the US scene picks up a bit more too. I'd love to go to an official GW SBG tournament, to be honest.
Same here. Although first I need to swap out my pile of plastic elves, Gondor and goblins for enough Rohirrim to make a good official GW force.
I enjoy the game and the rules but at home I like to use my Red Box Games Helsvakt as a Isengard counts as warband and that's not going to work at a GW event.
The fortnightly middle earth battles collection from the early 2000s was very popular from what I remember. I have been surprised that they haven't tried to make a second run of that as seemed a good gateway for new gamers.
Aeneades wrote: The fortnightly middle earth battles collection from the early 2000s was very popular from what I remember. I have been surprised that they haven't tried to make a second run of that as seemed a good gateway for new gamers.
Battle Games in Middle Earth? That was done by De Agostini, with a license to use and distribute GW minis. Each magazine came with a sprue or a metal fig. It'd be very hard to do that nowadays!
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notprop wrote: That was made by Da Agostini not GW and had a film series to support it.
To be fair, it continued through July 2006 and covered tons of non-film stuff, too!
If my memory serves me, GW hated that magazine. They couldn't keep up with the stock and with how much of a discount it gave over the stores. I remember the 1st issue with half a box of Moria goblins was 99p. I think I bought like 12 issues of it for all the goblins. So I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again unfortunately.
judgedoug wrote: I'm hoping that the US scene picks up a bit more too. I'd love to go to an official GW SBG tournament, to be honest.
Well, it isn't official Doug, but we're having another seven or eight player event in CT this weekend, up from the five players just last week. As I mentioned elsewhere, its pretty easy to attract attention when we're playing on tables designed by one of the best terrain makers in the world, every week. :-p Even the FLGS owner who admitted to us that SBG did horribly for him sales-wise, in the past, is showing interest when we come in, and is taking note.
Its a gesture... but GW just acknowledging the game's continued life, even in limited form, has seemed to be a shot in the arm.
judgedoug wrote: I'm hoping that the US scene picks up a bit more too. I'd love to go to an official GW SBG tournament, to be honest.
Well, it isn't official Doug, but we're having another seven or eight player event in CT this weekend, up from the five players just last week. As I mentioned elsewhere, its pretty easy to attract attention when we're playing on tables designed by one of the best terrain makers in the world, every week. :-p Even the FLGS owner who admitted to us that SBG did horribly for him sales-wise, in the past, is showing interest when we come in, and is taking note.
Its a gesture... but GW just acknowledging the game's continued life, even in limited form, has seemed to be a shot in the arm.
I'm also only about a 90 minute drive from the DC Hobbit League but sometimes I'm just so very lazy. hahah
Well this thread has been enough to convince me to start a force. Just picked up some mordor orcs and a metal command set to lead them. Now I just have to convince my friends to give it a try
Shouldn't take much convincing. Just being seen playing locally has generated interest here. When people sit down to a demo game, and realize they've learned a full-ruleset, with excellent depth, in the span of an hour, it tends to impress. :-)
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
Thanks!
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Funny you should say that because when the plastic Balrog came out at £35 I thought it was really expensive, but nowadays it's not that bad compared to some of their other prices.
judgedoug wrote: I'm hoping that the US scene picks up a bit more too. I'd love to go to an official GW SBG tournament, to be honest.
I think it will. There' a surprisingly high amount of pockets who played LotR and would like to again if/when it becomes a thing. CA, Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, one podcast I can't recall In New England. Exciting times when we get those new dwarves (and the rest).
judgedoug wrote: I'm hoping that the US scene picks up a bit more too. I'd love to go to an official GW SBG tournament, to be honest.
I think it will. There' a surprisingly high amount of pockets who played LotR and would like to again if/when it becomes a thing. CA, Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, one podcast I can't recall In New England. Exciting times when we get those new dwarves (and the rest).
Just received an invite for the NOVA Open, apparently a 35 table SBG tournament will be taking place. September. They asked me to set up an Amon Hen table for them based on my Amon Hen terrain I posted over in the dakka SBG subforum
The plastic Nazgul on Fell-beast comes with a variety of options, so you can make the Witch King of Angmar or a normal Nazgul and I think there's even a couple arm and head/hood options on the sprue, too.
I did not know that, I didn't even realize it was a plastic kit. I may need to pick one up.
Thanks!
The nazgul on fell beast and the balrog both plastic kits for $75 is actually not a bad price. I've been wanting to pick one up for some time...damn I want every model haha
Funny you should say that because when the plastic Balrog came out at £35 I thought it was really expensive, but nowadays it's not that bad compared to some of their other prices.
Same. "£29 for a carnifex! God that's expensive.......can I really justify it?"
Not really. All it does is remind me of GW doing only a 1000 print run and then claiming everything selling out creating artificial hype. Who knows what the print run was, so until we know the actual numbers, no it's not a good sign, and just making people do more impulse buys. Hell it worked for 40K most times. Now they will try it out for LotR so it can claim how "popular" it is. If I am wrong I am wrong. I hope I am wrong since I would love to see LotR flourish again. Thing is, if it doesn't flourish, how is pre-orders a good sign then? Time will tell.
Hey guys!
Any more new info about MESBG from Forgeworld open day? Open day bulletin says that there were some special guests from Middle-earth Studio. I hope there were some new things revealed!
Breslerek wrote: Hey guys! Any more new info about MESBG from Forgeworld open day? Open day bulletin says that there were some special guests from Middle-earth Studio. I hope there were some new things revealed!
I don't know if you have seen this. Scroll down, the top stuff is Blood Bowl but there is some nice beautiful LotR/The Hobbit stuff. Here is a link I saw on Natfka site.
Breslerek wrote: Hey guys!
Any more new info about MESBG from Forgeworld open day? Open day bulletin says that there were some special guests from Middle-earth Studio. I hope there were some new things revealed!
I don't know if you have seen this. Scroll down, the top stuff is Blood Bowl but there is some nice beautiful LotR/The Hobbit stuff. Here is a link I saw on Natfka site.
The following was posted on the One Ring forum and has some interesting info!
Penddraig on The One Ring wrote:
Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
I`m a massive fan of Tolkien and Middle-Earth and had a long chat with Adam Troke who is so enthusiastic about the SBG. There is a lot planned for the SBG starting with the release of the Hobbit-tome, “There and Back Again”. The proofs have been sent off for approval and it is hoped to release this around December. The book covers all the Hobbit films and includes scenarios for all the key events of the films – based on the extended editions. The book also contains a campaign system for linking the scenarios together as well as profiles for all the units / heroes found within the films. A point that was raised was the power-level of the Hobbit profiles as compared to the Lord of the Rings profiles and Adam confirmed that the profiles have been balanced. One of the most exciting profiles for me is the inclusion of the Nazgûl as found in the Battle of Dol Gûldor! The book also includes rules for running armies of the main forces in the film such as the Iron Hill Dwarves or Gundabad. A new feature that is intended to be used in the revised armies is that by taking a force that is unique, the force will gain a bonus. The example given was that an army from Dale alone will gain a 3+ Shoot value. Dale bowman in a mixed force with Erebor or Lake Town wouldn`t take this bonus.
The previewed models such as Dáin, the Iron Hill Dwarves and the Gundabad Berserkers are all due for release from October to December alongside the Lake Town plastic house. Future plans are possible event-only models or special edition models. Event-only models will feature models that can be bought at GW events rather than through the webstore and represent a special role / pose of the character / unit whereas special edition models represent a limited time release.
Future plans involve a revised set of rules. Adam stated that he is not concerned about massive changes as the rules by themselves are mostly sound. Revisions will include special strikes as these are currently unbalanced and possibly magic. This is planned for next summer and will come under the heading “Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game” to demonstrate that the Hobbit and LOTR are using the same core rues.
At this point there are two planned ways forward which are not fixed in place. One option is to create a “One Book to Rule Them All” that will include the rules and the profiles of all the units, heroes, monsters of Middle-Earth so that everything is in one place. The second option is to release the rules as one book and then release separate source books that will cover the races with the profiles included inside.
Either way, all armies are to be revised in line with the idea stated above with army-specific bonuses. No army is going to be scrapped and all will remain a playable force together with a re-balancing. Army creation may be tweaked but not dramatically. More army options are to be included so for example Rohan may have Théoden`s Hall, Helms Deep, the Western Mark under Éomere and the Eastern Mark under Théodred and the charge of Pellanor Field. Each will play slightly differently to the others
One confirmed area of development are scenario packs that will focus on one event or character. An example was given of the “Ringbearer`s Journey” that would include scenarios, rules etc that follow Frodo from leaving Bag End to the destruction of the Ring. Other possible plans are the War in the North and the Eastern Realms.
Breslerek wrote: What will happen with the miniatures? Can we expect a completely new range of miniatures for every faction or we will be stuck with the old ones?
There's basically no chance they'll release new versions of existing models. You'll see re-releases of OOP models and some new releases they didn't have time to release, like the final Hobbit movie models. This is not really a rejuvenation of the game as much as putting it on life support and prolonging its life a few years through some very enthusiastic people at Forge World. The heyday of new plastic kits and Whte Dwarf covers is long gone, although I'm sure it can go on quite comfortably as a niche game
for LotR enthusiasts.
One of the most exciting profiles for me is the inclusion of the Nazgûl as found in the Battle of Dol Gûldor!
I'd love to see some new miniatures to go with these!
Future plans are possible event-only models or special edition models.
Oh, that! That's a terrible idea! To me one of the main attractions of the renewed attention to LOTR/Hobbit was being able to buy miniatures without paying the current eBay OOP surcharge (which can run from 50-300% depending on the miniatures). The last thing they need to start releasing limited edition miniatures that 90% of the player base won't be able to buy without paying scalper prices.
One option is to create a “One Book to Rule Them All” that will include the rules and the profiles of all the units, heroes, monsters of Middle-Earth so that everything is in one place.
I'd be okay with this, but what price would they have to charge? The Hobbit hardcover rulebook cost $80US and had only one movie's worth of scenarios and model stats. If they try and jam 6 movies worth of material into one book, in addition to the rules how much is it going to cost? $100? $120? More??? I suppose a new rulebook and a half-dozen separate army books would end up costing even more, but the expense could be spread out more, and people who were only interested in one or two factions wouldn't have to buy all the books (like I would!).
Army creation may be tweaked but not dramatically. More army options are to be included so for example Rohan may have Théoden`s Hall, Helms Deep, the Western Mark under Éomere and the Eastern Mark under Théodred and the charge of Pellanor Field.
My knee jerk reaction to any changes in the rules or army lists is "No!" but as I think about it, this might be fun. I'll have to wait and see, I suppose.
Breslerek wrote: What will happen with the miniatures? Can we expect a completely new range of miniatures for every faction or we will be stuck with the old ones?
I would not expect them to re-sculpt much if anything and I doubt we will see any new plastic miniatures. Obviously they are already working on some new minis for the BoFA movie, and hopefully we will see at least a few new miniatures as time goes by, and I think there were at least a couple things still missing/never released from the LOTR range.
September 17th and 18th is a very exciting time for fans of The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey™: Strategy Battle Game, as Warhammer World not only hosts the Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain, but also Games Workshop’s Middle-earth team will be at the event.
Both Jay Clare and Adam Troke (authors of the forthcoming Thjay adame Hobbit: Motion Picture Trilogy™ There and Back Again) will be participating in the event itself, and on Saturday night, they’ll be making a small presentation about their upcoming book, what to expect from the team in the near future… and perhaps a short Q&A if time allows!
Not only that, but if you attend, you’ll have the chance to see some of the latest work-in-progress models from the talented hands of Keith Robertson, Gavin Newton and Rob Macfarlane. Like the one below…
AND FINALLY…
Finally, and perhaps most importantly of all, there will be a very limited stock of an old favourite kit from the Citadel The Lord of The Rings™ range on sale on the day. We can’t confirm WITCH kit it might be just yet, the FATES are still aligning, but when everything is FINALised, we’ll be sure to let you know.
September 17th and 18th is a very exciting time for fans of The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey™: Strategy Battle Game, as Warhammer World not only hosts the Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain, but also Games Workshop’s Middle-earth team will be at the event.
Both Jay Clare and Adam Troke (authors of the forthcoming Thjay adame Hobbit: Motion Picture Trilogy™ There and Back Again) will be participating in the event itself, and on Saturday night, they’ll be making a small presentation about their upcoming book, what to expect from the team in the near future… and perhaps a short Q&A if time allows!
Not only that, but if you attend, you’ll have the chance to see some of the latest work-in-progress models from the talented hands of Keith Robertson, Gavin Newton and Rob Macfarlane. Like the one below…
AND FINALLY…
Finally, and perhaps most importantly of all, there will be a very limited stock of an old favourite kit from the Citadel The Lord of The Rings™ range on sale on the day. We can’t confirm WITCH kit it might be just yet, the FATES are still aligning, but when everything is FINALised, we’ll be sure to let you know.
I really hope they allow worldwide ordering of the Final Fate of the Witch King set - is has my favorite sculpt/pose of the Witch King and I would love to have one without paying $150+ on ebay :/
The Middle-earth™ team is delighted to confirm that the much loved ‘Final Fate of the Witch-king’ (see right) will be making its welcome return at The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies™ Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain on Saturday 17th – Sunday 18th September! Please note that this set will not be available on the webstore following the event, but may be available at the Warhammer World store and other events in the future.
There will only be a limited stock of 100 sets available over the weekend, so if you want to be amongst the first to have the chance to buy a copy of this classic Citadel kit, be sure to make your way down to Warhammer World on the 17th-18th September for our Doubles Weekend!
News of the rise of the Witch-king has spread, and a band of noble heroes are beginning to muster in order to protect their lands against this dark threat. Only time will tell who these brave DEFENDERS may turn out to be…
Please note that this set will not be available on the webstore following the event, but may be available at the Warhammer World store and other events in the future.
judgedoug wrote: I really hope they allow worldwide ordering of the Final Fate of the Witch King set - is has my favorite sculpt/pose of the Witch King and I would love to have one without paying $150+ on ebay :/
I'm hopefully down that way in October, I can try and pick you up one, for $149
Please note that this set will not be available on the webstore following the event, but may be available at the Warhammer World store and other events in the future.
Stupid, stupid, stupid!
Don't go down this stupid limited release path, GW. To regenerate interest in the game the miniatures have to be AVAILABLE!!!
Here’s another event for your calendar, we’ll be coming Machester this October for Ardacon – a weekend long event celebrating the Hobbit and Games Workshop's Hobbit Strategy Battle Game!
We’ll be a the Mercure Manchester Piccadilly Hotel from Friday 21st to Sunday 23rd October. We’ll be bringing the latest and greatest from Forge World, exclusive models and merchandise, and miniatures from our The Lord of the Rings™ and The Hobbit™ranges.
If you’ll be at Ardacon you can place an order now with free shipping to the event, and make sure you get exactly what you want from Forge World. You have until 13th October to place your order for collection at Ardacon. All you need to do is selected the UK as your delivery country, then when you’re checking out you’ll be able to choose the event for delivery.
You can also place orders for collection at the Warhammer European Open Day. You have until 18th September to place your order, just select the Netherlands as your delivery country then choose the event to deliver to. Make sure you get your tickets before they’re gone!
The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies™ Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain is almost upon us and we have even more exciting news to bring you!
Alongside the re-release of the Final Fate of the Witch-king, the Middle-earth™ team is proud to announce that the highly sought after Defenders of Rohan™ boxed set (see above) will also be making its triumphant return to Warhammer World on Saturday 17th – Sunday 18th September.
There will only be a limited stock of 100 sets of each available over the weekend, so if you want to be amongst the first to have the chance to buy a copy of this classic Citadel kit, be sure that you’re there.
Please note that this set will not be available on the webstore following the event, but may be available at the Warhammer World store and other events in the future.
Tickets are running low for this event, so now is your last chance to secure your place at The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies™ Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain, along with the opportunity to purchase these two amazing kits.
If you would like to find out more about this event, and buy your ticket, click the button to the right. We’ll see you there!
The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies™ Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain is almost upon us and we have even more exciting news to bring you!
Alongside the re-release of the Final Fate of the Witch-king, the Middle-earth™ team is proud to announce that the highly sought after Defenders of Rohan™ boxed set (see above) will also be making its triumphant return to Warhammer World on Saturday 17th – Sunday 18th September.
There will only be a limited stock of 100 sets of each available over the weekend, so if you want to be amongst the first to have the chance to buy a copy of this classic Citadel kit, be sure that you’re there.
Please note that this set will not be available on the webstore following the event, but may be available at the Warhammer World store and other events in the future.
Tickets are running low for this event, so now is your last chance to secure your place at The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies™ Doubles Campaign Weekend: Towards the Lonely Mountain, along with the opportunity to purchase these two amazing kits.
If you would like to find out more about this event, and buy your ticket, click the button to the right. We’ll see you there!
Oh now that's just taking the proverbial One of the best sets they ever came out with in terms of character sculpts and they make it an exclusive? gah! That would be a sell out for months if they put it up for general release.
Whilst acknowledging the existence of the Warhammer World only command tanks, one would be very surprised if they restricted the availability of the plastic town houses at all.
I have no idea what availability the rest of the range will have.
One wouldn't be too surprised if that was FW website only.
First painted pics of Dain cropped up in the GSC news thread, reposting here:
Spoiler:
That is better than anything GW main put out for The Hobbit by a country mile, it looks to be up there with the best of the Perry LotR stuff in terms of likeness, character and overall quality.
Though whoever wrote that Weapon of the Month box either has access to a different version of BotFA to the rest of us, or has never seen the film... I do think they ought to release a replacement mini of Bard using Bain as a crossbow (crossBain? Bainbow?), though!
- The next months will all about the Iron Hill Dwarfes, Azogs forces for the Bo5A, and the source book for the last 2 hobbit movies, aswell as re-releases.
- The Hobbit sourcebook contains scenarios based on the Extended Cut.
- It will contain rules for all characters and units found there - even for yet unreleased stuff.
- The Dol Guldur Nazgûl will get rules, models and new titles. They are still the same guys as during the war of the ring, but different Incarnations, so they use different titles than the ringwraiths (since the ringwraith appereance was known by people, but the Dol Guldur by other ones, and not many connected them). Witchking and Khamul still have the same name though . They are too awesome^^
- Sometimes next year, the big project will be an new BRB with rules for the whole middle-earth range, including the name rebrand.
- After this, they want to focuse on sourcebooks again. They can use everything from the LotR books, the LoTR movies and the hobbit trilogy. No rights on the simarillion sadly, but they are allowed to write their own "lore" (like the Nazgûl names).
- Themes they can use for future sourcebooks are f.e.:
- The Last Alliance. The hobbit made some cool hints that are based on bigger Silmarillion/Lost Stories lore, so we may even get Thranduils dad getting eaten by dragons there - The War of the Ring from the perspective of Thranduil, Dain and an old Bard. Dol Guldur will get manned again by Saurons forces, and heroes will die - Angmar and Balins Expedition, with models based upon the hobbit movies
- Of course these are just examples of stuff they would like to do, nothing is decided yet.
Well, they'd like to do a lot of exciting stuff!
The more of it actually gets to the finishing line, the better...
I hope LotR will get revived- 0 people I know are playing it, official support always helps.
LotR was my first war game, and I haven't played it since I was 12 or 13 (no opponents) , but about a decade later I might actually get Keen on it again! "start collecting" would help spread the popularity about!
I'm more interested in small thematic forces though, to have narrative skirmishes, so everything said about sourcebooks leaves me very hopeful
Oropher, Thanduil's father, was never eaten by dragons. He was slain on the field at the Battle of Dagorlad. The Hobbit films made zero references to the Silmarillion or the Book of Lost Tales due to licensing.
Chikout wrote: So are we going to get dwarves mounted on goats? That might just tip me over into collecting these guys.
Probably in the nearish future. We're getting Dain and these guys first and then the supplement next month. The supplement will most likely list everything to come for the dwarves.
I'll stick my neck out and say they'll be available from GW's website and stores. The biggest indicator of this is Smaug. No one thought he would get made, let alone be available from GW's web store. And he's a pure Forge World piece.
I'll stick my neck out and say they'll be available from GW's website and stores. The biggest indicator of this is Smaug. No one thought he would get made, let alone be available from GW's web store. And he's a pure Forge World piece.
Thank you, that is good to know. I forgot about that.
Those look outstanding. Though I must admit, all the dwarfs in the lotr line look great, the only outliers might be the Warriors of Erebor and the dwarven rangers.
I hope they keep selling them from GW, doubling the prices with the hobbit releases nearly killed the system, if they'd move it to FW now, it wouldn't help the situation.
Eh, it's Forge World, so it's about expected.
The troops are the interesting one, as they're now in warbands of 12, they're actually cheaper than the current GW blisters by about £8.
I'd argue that even for FW it's more expensive than usual.
I mean, I'm looking at two HH Praetors for 33£... and then Dain is almost 20% more expensive than they are.
I must admit that those prices are completely bonkers. And by doing that I think GW/FW has laid the groundwork for the new LoTR/Hobbit focus to fail completely.
50£ for a ballista. You can get like four from other miniature makers. It just doesn't make sense!
Compared to FW's HH Character Series Dain's price isn't so insane. The non-primarchs run from 32 to 45 pounds, with the 45 pound ones having exceedingly large display bases (compared to the 32 pound ones, which have less-large display bases).
Which makes sense since Dain is listed as a part of The Hobbit Character Series. He lacks an ott display base but comes with 2 versions of himself, so probably uses a similar amount of resin.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'd argue that even for FW it's more expensive than usual.
I mean, I'm looking at two HH Praetors for 33£... and then Dain is almost 20% more expensive than they are.
Well, like said above he's a named character you'll only ever need one of. So it's the usual thing to charge more for him. Besides, who's going to turn up the chance to own mini Billy Connolly?
And those Ballistae are seriously good. Scattering only 3" is pretty phenomenal, and then knocking down everything within 2" and dishing out a strength 4 hit...this thing is going to be really good against horde armies...
$160 for a 400-500 point army depending on upgrades. More than I'm used to paying for a LoTR army, but still not terrible I guess.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Compared to FW's HH Character Series Dain's price isn't so insane.
No, they're just both insane. So much for my interest in the revival. I was turned off by the prices post-Hobbit change-over, and now its even worse. I'll just stick with what I have and historicals, I guess.
The extreme prices are a huge barrier. After all the improvements and reforms they've been making lately, its a shame they still haven't learned that lesson.
That said, do the Army Bundles offer a decent discount? GW has been pretty good with discounted bundles and army boxes lately, but I don't know if Forgeworld has followed their example.
Well, that's horrible pricing. I'm out :( did they want to make FW very expensive compared to Gw again?
Not that I was 100% in, but I really liked those models..especially Dain, I would've gotten him, if he was 20 pounds.. 24 max :(
Bundles are priced exactly like the one-click bundles of yor I'm afraid.
Prices to appear to actually be cheaper for the foot soldiers than their hobbit counterparts (looking at the finecast examples). I'm not sure if people were actually expecting them to be the same (or cheaper) than the plastic box warriors as that would have been an unrealistic expectation.
I can see both sides of the argument with Dain. On the one hand, £40 for a dwarf model foot and mounted is a hefty price, on the other it is labeled as a character series model meaning you really can't even compare it to say a legion praetor or apothecary. It's closest analog would be a primarch or other HH special character, and the attention to detail in those guys is insane.
godswildcard wrote: Bundles are priced exactly like the one-click bundles of yor I'm afraid.
Prices to appear to actually be cheaper for the foot soldiers than their hobbit counterparts (looking at the finecast examples). I'm not sure if people were actually expecting them to be the same (or cheaper) than the plastic box warriors as that would have been an unrealistic expectation.
I can see both sides of the argument with Dain. On the one hand, £40 for a dwarf model foot and mounted is a hefty price, on the other it is labeled as a character series model meaning you really can't even compare it to say a legion praetor or apothecary. It's closest analog would be a primarch or other HH special character, and the attention to detail in those guys is insane.
Defiantly, but primarchs have far more space for details, than Dain. Yes, they cost more as well, but if someone puts 2 close by, i bet it will cause some brow raising. 2:3 in price, but is it 2:3 in quality and size?
Way overpriced. Dain especially, considering that comparable miniatures offered by GW only go for £27, and that is already quite expensive. For the same price as Dain I can get 6 of the dwarves of Thorins company. Or Elrond (foot and mounted) and Legolas. Or 3 Azogs (including 1 mounted). And that is even before the ridiculous shipping fees that FW charges. I really feel that all of the kits should have been 10 pounds less expensive. Then they would have been great. Now they are just meh. I really like these miniatures, but at the current price I just can't afford it to get them. I am not going to pay over €200,- for 24 warriors, a ballista and Dain. No matter how cool they are.
I must admit that those prices are completely bonkers. And by doing that I think GW/FW has laid the groundwork for the new LoTR/Hobbit focus to fail completely.
50£ for a ballista. You can get like four from other miniature makers. It just doesn't make sense!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The extreme prices are a huge barrier. After all the improvements and reforms they've been making lately, its a shame they still haven't learned that lesson.
That said, do the Army Bundles offer a decent discount? GW has been pretty good with discounted bundles and army boxes lately, but I don't know if Forgeworld has followed their example.
Theres LotR discounted bundles available? Where are they, I might get some!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The extreme prices are a huge barrier. After all the improvements and reforms they've been making lately, its a shame they still haven't learned that lesson.
That said, do the Army Bundles offer a decent discount? GW has been pretty good with discounted bundles and army boxes lately, but I don't know if Forgeworld has followed their example.
Theres LotR discounted bundles available? Where are they, I might get some!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The extreme prices are a huge barrier. After all the improvements and reforms they've been making lately, its a shame they still haven't learned that lesson.
That said, do the Army Bundles offer a decent discount? GW has been pretty good with discounted bundles and army boxes lately, but I don't know if Forgeworld has followed their example.
Theres LotR discounted bundles available? Where are they, I might get some!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The extreme prices are a huge barrier. After all the improvements and reforms they've been making lately, its a shame they still haven't learned that lesson.
That said, do the Army Bundles offer a decent discount? GW has been pretty good with discounted bundles and army boxes lately, but I don't know if Forgeworld has followed their example.
Theres LotR discounted bundles available? Where are they, I might get some!
Warhammer 40K and Age of Simar Start Collecting boxes. I don't think they've done any for the Hobbit.
I'm looking at those dwarves and I see standard FW prices on the infantry. Did anyone expect 2008 plastic pricing on those? Given that you need relatively few models to field a decent force in LotR compared to pretty much any other GW game, it doesn't seem that bad of a deal.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which makes sense since Dain is listed as a part of The Hobbit Character Series. He lacks an ott display base but comes with 2 versions of himself, so probably uses a similar amount of resin.
Acording to unboxing reviews he does come with cast scenic bases (although not OTT perhaps).
While Dain and the Ballista are a bit pricey, I'm pleased with the cost of the Iron Hills Dwarfs themselves. They are actually significantly cheaper than for example the Finecast Gundabad Orcs from the GW Hobbit range.
All in all, I think these prices are about as good as we could have expected.
The bundles are not discounted. Same price as if you bought the figures separately.
Didn't say they were discounted, just that those were the bundles. Anyone familiar with GW should know by now GW doesn't offer a discount on web bundles
As for the £40 price of the Iron Hills Dwarf Warriors, I'd like to point out that's actually cheaper than the resin troops that were released for the last movie which would have cost £60 for the same number of models.
completely bonkers that GW / FW thinks they can restart the Hobbit / LotR game with these prices. They killed it before it got of the ground.
I don't doubt collectors and fans will get a lot of these. I do doubt that this game will get any traction or build any base. If GW just want to break even on their investment, so be it, but these prices are stupid.
Look at what you can get from other hot games on the market right now....
Draccan wrote: GW / FW thinks they can restart the Hobbit / LotR
Where does this idea come from?
GW isn't restarting LotR. They're providing low cost support to a system that a portion of their customer base still plays. I very much doubt anyone at GW wants to make LotR a flagship. That would be rather silly.
Well, you said you don't doubt the fans and collectors will get a lot of those dwarves. I'd wait a little to see if perhaps they'll buy enough to turn a profit for GW.
I mean, I'll probably buy a few units, just because I love the LotR aesthetic.
Draccan wrote:
completely bonkers that GW / FW thinks they can restart the Hobbit / LotR game with these prices. They killed it before it got of the ground.
I don't doubt collectors and fans will get a lot of these. I do doubt that this game will get any traction or build any base. If GW just want to break even on their investment, so be it, but these prices are stupid.
Look at what you can get from other hot games on the market right now....
Just as I was thinking of coming back, I see this. I guess I am not part of GW demographic they want buying their product.
Horrible paint job coming in from Forge World. I expected better especially at those prices. Seeing that paint job, those prices, now I remember why I quit the first place.
Draccan wrote:
completely bonkers that GW / FW thinks they can restart the Hobbit / LotR game with these prices. They killed it before it got of the ground.
I don't doubt collectors and fans will get a lot of these. I do doubt that this game will get any traction or build any base. If GW just want to break even on their investment, so be it, but these prices are stupid.
Look at what you can get from other hot games on the market right now....
Just as I was thinking of coming back, I see this. I guess I am not part of GW demographic they want buying their product.
Horrible paint job coming in from Forge World. I expected better especially at those prices. Seeing that paint job, those prices, now I remember why I quit the first place.
I agree that those prices are very high and they have certainly priced themselves out of my buying range, but I am surprised that people are so surprised by this.
As soon as this was announced as a forgeworld project, this was what I was expecting. Dain is a little cheaper than Gorro and the infantry are a similar price to solar auxlia infantry.
Again I think the prices are very high but people need to learn to manage their expectations. On that note here is a heads up.
Resin bloodbowl teams will cost around £40. Star players will be £30 and up. Future specialist games stufg will also be very expensive. I am scared of how much they will charge me to get an adeptus titanicus game upand running
I feel like they're actually doing things right here, or at least par for the course.
The rumor was (is) that they are bringing back ALL of the discontinued LotR models. There is the starting point for new players. There is a LOT there to choose from when beginning a new force. Add in the rumored rolling of all books into one massive tome and you've got a recipe for easy army options going forward. Buy the core book, and then buy whatever armies tickle your fancy since you've got the rules already.
Forgeworld will remain a more expensive, yet prettier, option for those so inclined. While it's true they may be handling all of the new releases going forward, which is a minus, you've still got plenty of options outside Forgeworld for your Tolkien itch.
LotR:SBG is by miles the best skirmish system GW have, given its playable with a handful of models the prices of that handful isn't that bad - something like a 'start collecting' box would easily be a functional army here.
FW is probably the best place for this to live, and perhaps at some point get a plastic box to test the waters
The problem with forge world running the show for LotR.......is that forge world don't have a very good history of supporting their lines outside of HH and quietly leaving product lines to wither away, whilst they churn out the fiftieth variant of HH space marine armour for the button counters.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: The problem with forge world running the show for LotR.......is that forge world don't have a very good history of supporting their lines outside of HH and quietly leaving product lines to wither away, whilst they churn out the fiftieth variant of HH space marine armour for the button counters.
Something now is better than nothing, I suppose.
They hired new staff especially for this. I believe they have dedicated designers making the minis. They are approaching the specialist games stuff in a much more focused way than before.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: The problem with forge world running the show for LotR.......is that forge world don't have a very good history of supporting their lines outside of HH and quietly leaving product lines to wither away, whilst they churn out the fiftieth variant of HH space marine armour for the button counters.
Something now is better than nothing, I suppose.
They hired new staff especially for this. I believe they have dedicated designers making the minis. They are approaching the specialist games stuff in a much more focused way than before.
^^this. Wish I Had not ignored the job posting for MiddleEarth staff.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: The problem with forge world running the show for LotR.......is that forge world don't have a very good history of supporting their lines outside of HH and quietly leaving product lines to wither away, whilst they churn out the fiftieth variant of HH space marine armour for the button counters.
Something now is better than nothing, I suppose.
They hired new staff especially for this. I believe they have dedicated designers making the minis. They are approaching the specialist games stuff in a much more focused way than before.
Yeah. Forge World has three sections now, traditional FW stuff (heresy, 40k, AoS); Specialist Games and Middle Earth, with their own staff.
His Master's Voice wrote: Well, you said you don't doubt the fans and collectors will get a lot of those dwarves. I'd wait a little to see if perhaps they'll buy enough to turn a profit for GW.
I mean, I'll probably buy a few units, just because I love the LotR aesthetic.
Just in regards to this, coming from Ardacon, they completely sold out of all the Forge World items Adam Troke and the crew took there. I believe they stated they smashed their sales target by about 5 times the expected amount. So, the profit is already there, big time.
Ghaz wrote: .Didn't say they were discounted, just that those were the bundles. Anyone familiar with GW should know by now GW doesn't offer a discount on web bundles
I didn't say you did. I was just pointing that out for the folks that might think these bundles are something special other than just a way to save a few mouse clicks when ordering.
Just as I was thinking of coming back, I see this. I guess I am not part of GW demographic they want buying their product.
You are aware that these prices only apply to three items in the whole LOTR/Hobbit range, right? Unless you are determined to build an Iron Hills Dwarf army, the cost of these are irrelevant. You can still buy plastic warriors for £15/$25 a dozen, and mounted/foot character sets for £15.50/$24.75. Obviously, anything new is going to be at this higher FW cost, but there is still an extensive catalog of LOTR miniatures (and they continue rerelease OOP miniatures) at much lower prices. If you are flexible in which faction you are willing to play, its easy to get a playable for around $100.
Ghaz wrote: .Didn't say they were discounted, just that those were the bundles. Anyone familiar with GW should know by now GW doesn't offer a discount on web bundles
I didn't say you did. I was just pointing that out for the folks that might think these bundles are something special other than just a way to save a few mouse clicks when ordering.
Just as I was thinking of coming back, I see this. I guess I am not part of GW demographic they want buying their product.
You are aware that these prices only apply to three items in the whole LOTR/Hobbit range, right? Unless you are determined to build an Iron Hills Dwarf army, the cost of these are irrelevant. You can still buy plastic warriors for £15/$25 a dozen, and mounted/foot character sets for £15.50/$24.75. Obviously, anything new is going to be at this higher FW cost, but there is still an extensive catalog of LOTR miniatures (and they continue rerelease OOP miniatures) at much lower prices. If you are flexible in which faction you are willing to play, its easy to get a playable for around $100.
Sorry I think I didn't explain myself, I am not just talking of the Dwarves, but the rest of the range as well. So once the new rules come out it can only be ordered by Forge World and the old minis as well, so if I wanted something now I better buy if from GW before it moves over to FW or will it stay with GW. Hope this makes more sense.
judgedoug wrote: I get a feeling that the only people that are complaining about prices have never actually bought a LOTR/H model.
12 Iron Hills dwarves for £40 is currently $48.95.
12 Finecast Hobbit models is $100.
12 metal Lord of the Rings models is $60
10 plastic Hobbit Mirkwood Palace Guard is $40
Iron Hills Dwarves in resin are a fething STEAL at $48.95 for 12, less than half the price of Finecast and a significant savings over metal models.
I guess the reality of the pricing situation isn't as fun as inventing things to bitch about though
YOu speak sense. It's pricy but compared to Hobbit it's much much better. Now I have a reason to add GrimHammers to these FW Iron Hill dwarves to do more than just paint. I'm stoked. And when the rams come...
Good news for all fans of middle-earth - the new Hobbit Sourcebook (for cheap 35 pounds) and the Laketown Houses (for even cheaper 25 pounds) will be up for pre-order on November 26.
As said before, the houses are modular and should be useful for middle-earth games, AoS or even Mordheim. The rulesbook contains everything you need to re-play the last two hobbit movies (yes, rules without models!).
judgedoug wrote:I get a feeling that the only people that are complaining about prices have never actually bought a LOTR/H model.
12 Iron Hills dwarves for £40 is currently $48.95.
12 Finecast Hobbit models is $100.
12 metal Lord of the Rings models is $60
10 plastic Hobbit Mirkwood Palace Guard is $40
Iron Hills Dwarves in resin are a fething STEAL at $48.95 for 12, less than half the price of Finecast and a significant savings over metal models.
I guess the reality of the pricing situation isn't as fun as inventing things to bitch about though
Oh I have LotR mins but only The Hobbit boxset. I quit after that. I am not really complaining about the prices for Forge World. It's I can't buy it right away from a store.
If this has already been shared, apologies. From Atia's blog: War of Sigmar
Howdy Guys and Girls
Good news for all fans of middle-earth - the new Hobbit Sourcebook (for cheap 35 pounds) and the Laketown Houses (for even cheaper 25 pounds) will be up for pre-order on November 26.
As said before, the houses are modular and should be useful for middle-earth games, AoS or even Mordheim. The rulesbook contains everything you need to re-play the last two hobbit movies (yes, rules without models!).
judgedoug wrote: I get a feeling that the only people that are complaining about prices have never actually bought a LOTR/H model.
12 Iron Hills dwarves for £40 is currently $48.95.
12 Finecast Hobbit models is $100.
12 metal Lord of the Rings models is $60
10 plastic Hobbit Mirkwood Palace Guard is $40
Iron Hills Dwarves in resin are a fething STEAL at $48.95 for 12, less than half the price of Finecast and a significant savings over metal models.
I guess the reality of the pricing situation isn't as fun as inventing things to bitch about though
Well no. I've bought stuff in the past, but I think these models are too expensive for what they are. So I'm passing on them and getting my stuff from elsewhere. you can justify the prices to yourself if you like, but don't pin it on others if they disagree with the costs.
12 Iron Hills dwarves for £40 is currently $48.95.
12 metal Lord of the Rings models from 2016 is $60
12 metal Lord of the Rings models from 2006 is $48 OH WAIT
The Forge world resin just-released Iron Hills Dwarves are approximately the same price as 12 metal Lord of the Rings models from ten years ago.
There's no "justifying" going on here, it's just simply fact that the FW Iron Hills Dwarf infantry models are a significant price reduction not only compared to Hobbit Finecast but also to the currently available metal Lord of the Rings models, and are a comparable price to metal Lord of the Rings models from a decade ago.
I seriously think these models could be free and people would still just want to bitch because GW.
12 Iron Hills dwarves for £40 is currently $48.95.
12 metal Lord of the Rings models from 2016 is $60
12 metal Lord of the Rings models from 2006 is $48 OH WAIT
The Forge world resin just-released Iron Hills Dwarves are approximately the same price as 12 metal Lord of the Rings models from ten years ago.
There's no "justifying" going on here, it's just simply fact that the FW Iron Hills Dwarf infantry models are a significant price reduction not only compared to Hobbit Finecast but also to the currently available metal Lord of the Rings models, and are a comparable price to metal Lord of the Rings models from a decade ago.
I seriously think these models could be free and people would still just want to bitch because GW.
Sure cherry picking allows that but why keep picking most expensive options rather than more realistic comparisons?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I would quit the game entirely if they did that, and sell off of my entire collection to a new player.
Why?
Have you heard of the Laffer Curve?...
There will come a point at which I will have to draw a line and decide the game has become too expensive. And there are far too many competing games out there at much more reasonable prices. GW converting all its plastic kits to resin would involve a HUGE markup. One of the few saving graces of the SBG re the prices is that there are plenty of cheap plastic kits available, especially second hand. Take that away by replacing the plastic with resin, and you're just left with an extremely expensive resin range.
I haven't played the sbg in a year. If GW did this, I'd sell off my collection and invest it into SAGA and This is Not a Test (Fallout skirmish game).
It doesn't matter what distorted lens you view this through, Dain is considerably more expensive.
I certainly don't deny that. Forgeworld comes with a premium - always has and always will. If it means that they can still do fringe projects then so be it.
Its hardly a fringe product. The LOTR and Hobbit are huge movie franchises with strong brand recognition. If a complete stranger who's never had any involvement with miniature wargaming walks into a store you'd have to explain what the Warhammer universes are all about, but name drop the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit and they'd instantly know what you're talking about. The SBG community is thriving and going from strength to strength and are entirely responsible for sustaining the game for years without official support from GW.
Its about time GW recognised that the SBG is not a fringe side project, and indeed we're starting to see indications of that such as their new Middle Earth design team and latest releases.
Maybe its because I don't really use GW models for my LotR gaming, so if they all move to forgeworld it won't affect my current purchasing habits for the game.
The game would probably be better off continuing with the DIY attitude than GW sticking their oar in, I suspect.
I certainly have no insight into the inner workings of the GW hivemind, but I doubt that is going to happen. In fact, I think it would be an exceedingly stupid thing to do. AFAIK, FW is just going to produce new stuff that was never done by GW, like the Iron Hills Dwarfs.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Its hardly a fringe product. The LOTR and Hobbit are huge movie franchises with strong brand recognition. If a complete stranger who's never had any involvement with miniature wargaming walks into a store you'd have to explain what the Warhammer universes are all about, but name drop the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit and they'd instantly know what you're talking about. The SBG community is thriving and going from strength to strength and are entirely responsible for sustaining the game for years without official support from GW.
Further to that, LOTR was *the* big game when the films were out. Stores were full and GW could barely keep up with demand.
That it's now regarded as a fringe game has nothing to do with the IP.
The FW dwarves are not a new line in the sand, folks. LotR/Hobbit has been too expensive for a while. If these Dwarves give you sticker shock, you must have forgotten how expensive FC figs for this game have been for a long while now.
Oh, I'm not arguing Dain isn't expensive - he's stupidly expensive. $50 for a dwarf on foot and mounted is more than Bolg foot and mounted, and Bolg is several times more massive.
But the dwarf infantry are cheap as dirt. Anyone complaining about the cost of the resin dwarf infantry hasn't bought any LOTR models since 2005, because the resin dwarf infantry are the same price as metal LOTR models in 2006. They are cheaper than other resin infantry from other companies and look much nicer. And, yes, of course they're more expensive than plastic models - they're also more expensive than paper models too! but they are cheaper than the metals and half the price of finecast.
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Manchu wrote: The FW dwarves are not a new line in the sand, folks. LotR/Hobbit has been too expensive for a while. If these Dwarves give you sticker shock, you must have forgotten how expensive FC figs for this game have been for a long while now.
Or the fact that in 2006, metal LOTR models were $12 for a pack of 3, which is roughly the same cost as these resin FW Iron Hills dwarves a decade later.
In the last decade, metal LOTR models went from $12 for 3, to $13.25 for 3, to $15 for 3. the FW Iron Hills Dwarves are cheaper than LOTR metal models (and half the price of FC Hobbit models)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I would quit the game entirely if they did that, and sell off of my entire collection to a new player.
Why?
There will come a point at which I will have to draw a line and decide the game has become too expensive. And there are far too many competing games out there at much more reasonable prices. GW converting all its plastic kits to resin would involve a HUGE markup. One of the few saving graces of the SBG re the prices is that there are plenty of cheap plastic kits available, especially second hand. Take that away by replacing the plastic with resin, and you're just left with an extremely expensive resin range.
I haven't played the sbg in a year. If GW did this, I'd sell off my collection and invest it into SAGA and This is Not a Test (Fallout skirmish game).
You're the guy that burned his Dark Elf army on Youtube right?
judgedoug wrote: Oh, I'm not arguing Dain isn't expensive - he's stupidly expensive. $50 for a dwarf on foot and mounted is more than Bolg foot and mounted, and Bolg is several times more massive.
But the dwarf infantry are cheap as dirt. Anyone complaining about the cost of the resin dwarf infantry hasn't bought any LOTR models since 2005, because the resin dwarf infantry are the same price as metal LOTR models in 2006. They are cheaper than other resin infantry from other companies and look much nicer. And, yes, of course they're more expensive than plastic models - they're also more expensive than paper models too! but they are cheaper than the metals and half the price of finecast.
They are not cheap as dirt. Them being the same price as expensive metal models makes them also expensive, not dirt cheap. But I do not think anyone has complained about the price of the Dwarf troops. Miniatures in general are very expensive and these are fairly priced as far as GW products go. What people are complaining about is Dain, who is just on an entirely new level of ridiculously expensive.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I would quit the game entirely if they did that, and sell off of my entire collection to a new player.
Why?
There will come a point at which I will have to draw a line and decide the game has become too expensive. And there are far too many competing games out there at much more reasonable prices. GW converting all its plastic kits to resin would involve a HUGE markup. One of the few saving graces of the SBG re the prices is that there are plenty of cheap plastic kits available, especially second hand. Take that away by replacing the plastic with resin, and you're just left with an extremely expensive resin range.
I haven't played the sbg in a year. If GW did this, I'd sell off my collection and invest it into SAGA and This is Not a Test (Fallout skirmish game).
You're the guy that burned his Dark Elf army on Youtube right?
Why are you being so obtuse? Just because you are willing and able to spend huge amounts of money on miniatures does not mean that everyone is. The plastic LotR kits are significantly cheaper than the resin sets. If the plastics were converted to resin, that'd certainly bring a huge price increase with it which for some people would push the hobby from "expensive but affordable" into "too expensive" and they would give up on it. Is that so hard to understand?
I am hoping that if they ever remake the plastic kits (which I doubt they will) that they will keep them in plastic, rather than resin. New LotR plastics would be amazing.
So, let me get this straight, you guys are arguing that...
if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
THEN
you would take the armies you already own...
and get rid of them.
Brilliant!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote: They are not cheap as dirt. Them being the same price as expensive metal models makes them also expensive, not dirt cheap.
But I do not think anyone has complained about the price of the Dwarf troops. Miniatures in general are very expensive and these are fairly priced as far as GW products go.
What people are complaining about is Dain, who is just on an entirely new level of ridiculously expensive.
Seems to be several people over the course of the last few pages complaining that $4 for a resin miniature is somehow ridiculous, despite it being perhaps the cheapest you can get a highly detailed 28mm miniature in resin nowadays. My favorite arguments are "but they are more expensive than plastic!!!" Well no fething gak! It's also more expensive than paper standees - oh, gak, it's also more expensive than rocks with smiley faces painted on them!
There have been several complaints that somehow 50 bucks for 12 resin FW dwarves is price gouging or ridiculously overpriced compared to the rest of the line, when those arguments have been proven to be demonstrably false. They are cheaper than the metal LOTR miniatures and they are half the price of the Finecast miniatures. Anyone that plays Feifdoms, Gundabad, Laketown, Mirkwood (soldiers), or fields warbands of specialists troops such as Abrakhan Guard, Watchers of Karna, Mordor Uruk-Hai, Blackshields, Black Numenoreans, Black Guard, and a neverending list of models only available in metal and Finecast can attest to this simple fact.
But, people like to hate on GW even though they've actually released a product that is at a tremendously significant discount over the last ten years worth of releases! It's absurdly comical.
I don't think anyone has argued that Dain is reasonably priced.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had to take a step back and realize that the last couple pages have been people complaining that LOTR/Hobbit SBG, which has had no new releases for several years, is now getting new models and a new sourcebook (this month!) and the thread is littered with complaints. Good job everyone!
So, let me get this straight, you guys are arguing that...
if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics... and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits... to be released in FW resin...
THEN
you would take the armies you already own... and get rid of them.
Brilliant!
No. I would look at my incomplete armies and collection, and then look at the now obscenely expensive all FW resin Middle Earth range and decide...
"Well, I'm never going to pay these new prices for the newly remastered FW resin range, which means I can't complete my armies, collections, my WIP projects or the projects I wanted to do and started planning but haven't got round to yet, so the wisest and most economical thing to do is to abandon my incomplete SBG collection and sell it off so I can move on to other more affordable games that I can afford to continue investing in over the long term as GW has reached my breaking point".
Those games for me are SAGA, This is Not a Test and Frostgrave. All of which have a much more open community and selection of miniature ranges on offer, you aren't limited to one single extremely expensive range of miniatures. You can buy and use miniatures from a wide range of companies that cooperate and collaborate together, and when you go to tournaments your army won't be banned because you've used 3rd party miniatures.
Lately over the last year, I've been working on several Fallout armies for This is Not a Test. I have miniatures from countless retailers, Brother Vinni, Hasslefree, Worlds End, Pig Iron Productions, Brigade Miniatures, Wargames Factory.
Ditto for SAGA - Gripping Beast, Wargames Factory, Footsore Miniatures.
As for Frostgrave, I haven't started playing that, but I could re purpose a lot of the Hasslefree miniatures I got for D&D and some of my LOTR miniatures.
There have been several complaints that somehow 50 bucks for 12 resin FW dwarves is price gouging or ridiculously overpriced compared to the rest of the line, when those arguments have been proven to be demonstrably false. They are cheaper than the metal LOTR miniatures and they are half the price of the Finecast miniatures. Anyone that plays Feifdoms, Gundabad, Laketown, Mirkwood (soldiers), or fields warbands of specialists troops such as Abrakhan Guard, Watchers of Karna, Mordor Uruk-Hai, Blackshields, Black Numenoreans, Black Guard, and a neverending list of models only available in metal and Finecast can attest to this simple fact.
Who the feth is talking about the 12 Dwarves? We're talking about DAIN, which is £15 more expensive than its closest existing equivalents (Azog and Bolg).
I had to take a step back and realize that the last couple pages have been people complaining that LOTR/Hobbit SBG, which has had no new releases for several years, is now getting new models and a new sourcebook (this month!) and the thread is littered with complaints. Good job everyone!
Oh **** off. We're complaining that GW is taking two steps forward and one step back. They very nearly killed the SBG with their soaring prices and lack of support/releases over several years, and now they're repeating one of those two mistakes once again.
Stop looking at this from such a blinkered black & white absolutist perspective. Just because we're unhappy with the prices of the new releases, doesn't mean that we're complaining that GW has brought out new releases. Hell, on Facebook I'm singing the praises of the new releases and complimenting people's painting, the new miniatures are fantastic. I do like the new miniatures. But just because I like them doesn't mean I have to accept the absurd prices and shut up.
I'm exercising my right as a consumer to withhold a purchase and voice my reason why.
So, let me get this straight, you guys are arguing that...
if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
THEN
you would take the armies you already own...
and get rid of them.
Brilliant!
.
You seem very adamant and insistent that people are arguing and raving away in this thread, but I don't this at all. In fact the only person really coming across aggressively about things is you, when declaring why you are right and other opinions are wrong haha.
So, let me get this straight, you guys are arguing that...
if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
THEN
you would take the armies you already own...
and get rid of them.
Brilliant!
If the price hike means that he's never going to be able to get an opponent for them (bearing in mind this is a social game), then I really don't see why anyone would be surprised if he'd rather just sell up and move onto another game that he can actually play. It's likely better than just sticking them in the attic to be ignored for 30 years. But then, I'm not in a position (in terms of space or money) to keep hold of everything indefinitely; I'm on the absolute verge of selling off the last of my 40K since it's not come out in about 3 years.
judgedoug wrote: if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
is so absurdly improbable, so completely divorced from reality, that it really has no bearing on any sensible discussion, and that the idea of inventing such an outlandish scenario to validate hypothetically rage quitting is patently ridiculous.
So, let me get this straight, you guys are arguing that...
if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
THEN
you would take the armies you already own...
and get rid of them.
Brilliant!
If the price hike means that he's never going to be able to get an opponent for them (bearing in mind this is a social game), then I really don't see why anyone would be surprised if he'd rather just sell up and move onto another game that he can actually play. It's likely better than just sticking them in the attic to be ignored for 30 years. But then, I'm not in a position (in terms of space or money) to keep hold of everything indefinitely; I'm on the absolute verge of selling off the last of my 40K since it's not come out in about 3 years.
This. If someone sees the wind blowing in a direction they don't like or in a way that may make their choice of game more difficult to play, then why not sell up and cash out? Its an individual choice.
The whole thing was obviously never ever ever ever ever going to happen and didn't really need the threat of a rage quit or the (tedious) pissing contest that has followed.
The plastics aren't going anywhere, eBay isn't going anywhere, the future releases will be at approximately this price which isn't bad for the infantry and is expensive for the character series.
Pointless tangent over?
Have we had any hint of what follows the iron hills dwarves and the lake town scenery?
Vorian wrote: Have we had any hint of what follows the iron hills dwarves and the lake town scenery?
From what I have heard, mostly via Facebook, they have tons more that they want to do from the Hobbit movies. One rumor is ram cavalry for the Dwarves. There is certainly a ton of stuff left to do from Bo5A alone.
Herzlos wrote: If the price hike means that he's never going to be able to get an opponent for them (bearing in mind this is a social game),
Ah, gotcha. Well that makes more sense, but thankfully, we've seen a price drop for the infantry to approximately 2006 levels, and half the price of the last Hobbit Finecast infantry releases.
judgedoug wrote: if GW decided to destroy the steel molds to dozens of LOTR and Hobbit plastics...
and then redesign the miniatures from dozens of plastic kits...
to be released in FW resin...
is so absurdly improbable, so completely divorced from reality, that it really has no bearing on any sensible discussion, and that the idea of inventing such an outlandish scenario to validate hypothetically rage quitting is patently ridiculous.
Yes, correct Manchu - but the ragequit scenario involves a predetermined conclusion - that "GW is bad! They fethed this up SOMEHOW and I have to blame them!" that some pretty intense mental gymnastics are required to make this happen. As you said, so completely divorced form reality that it really has no bearing on any sensible discussion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote: Have we had any hint of what follows the iron hills dwarves and the lake town scenery?
Plastic modular Lake-Town house & scenery
Iron Hill Dwarf Chariot
Iron Hill Dwarf Ram Cavalry
Gundabad Berserkers
Gundabad Ogres
Gundabad Troll
The Nine
Adam Troke has let slip that some unreleased sculpts may be released, such as the unreleased sculpts for Bard and Thranduil seen in the oop Desolation of Smaug sourcebook.
Pretty sure GW are still sitting on an entire unreleased Thorin's Company, there's alternate sculpts for them all in the original rulebook that I don't think ever got released.
Paradigm wrote: Pretty sure GW are still sitting on an entire unreleased Thorin's Company, there's alternate sculpts for them all in the original rulebook that I don't think ever got released.
We were told they were originally made for the actors as one off sculpts during one of the tournaments at Warhammer World. When we were asked during the Q&A if people would be interested in it, pretty much everyone was, so who knows if they may come?
No more posts of any kind regarding the plastic-to-resin discussion, please - there is no evidence for this ever happening, and the hypothetical case has been thoroughly covered by now, regardless.
Let's stick to the topic of this thread, News & Rumors for the Middle Earth SBG.
I really don't understand GW... Their attitude to pricing has become truly schizophrenic lately. First we had the foot & mounted Dain Ironfoot blister pack for £40 (a big markup from the closest equivalent existing Hobbit heroes, Azog and Bolg at £25 and £27).
And now they've just come out with a fantastic value for money Osgiliath ruins multipack. Three sets of ruins for £40! That works out at £13.33 each! A single set is currently £18 each.
Credit given where credit is due, thats fantastic and exactly the sort of thing I want to see from GW.
They took two steps forward with the Iron Hill Dwarves, then one step back with Dain Ironfoot's pricing. This is another two steps forward.
Lady Atia wrote:Good news for all fans of middle-earth - the new Hobbit Sourcebook (for cheap 35 pounds) and the Laketown Houses (for even cheaper 25 pounds) will be up for pre-order on November 26.
The book has arrived but the buildings are nowhere to be seen yet. Atia is almost never wrong so I'm a bit worried, hope they haven't been delayed. I've already waited months for these so I can wait a bit longer as long as they are actually coming.
). But the cost, limited options model-wise and lack of real support killed off any grand plans I had for Hobbit armies going into the trilogy.
It's still cheap enough to get it.
that! That's a terrible idea! To me one of the main attractions of the renewed attention to 
