Imagine a 3-way running gun battle through Trash City between Rick's Milita, The Trash People and The Saviours. Rick and the Saviours unknowingly attack simultaneously and the Trash People are caught between the two factions.
Maybe Rick and Negan could accidentally run into each other and have a personal showdown towards the end of the battle before they're both forced to retreat.
What's the point in the trash people again? Do they even have an analogy in the comics? Are they setting them up to take the place of some other group which they TV show's thrown under the bus (all I can think of is the show's portrayal of Ocean Side)?
Like the Wolves? Those guys were awesome right? Right!
(still have no idea how the Wolves made it all the way from the Southern United States - or wherever they went after Georgia finding that one kid's dead family - all the way to Alexandria - a weeks/ months long trip. If they were following Rick's group then it would have been in their character to have attacked them. However they appeared to have been established in the D.C. area beforehand given that setup they had with the trucks)
I suppose if they're doing away with Carl, and Sophia died ages ago, then Alpha lacking a daughter could also be a thing. Though that random girl they've had for a while now seems like she was supposed to be Sophia, though with Carl gone they can do away with her too (its not like she's done much).
Hey, maybe that Trash zombie who apparently has an amazing backstory's supposed to be Beta? Or that one old Trash person? Eugh.... Yeah, probably not.
Meh, its not like the latest issues of the comics have been much better. At least that's wrapping itself up.
I think there are a few conceptual echoes of the Scavengers from the comics in the trash people. The Wolves kinda took the Scavengers' spot in the story, but there wasn't much thematic resemblance between those two groups.
And no, I don't think (or maybe it's better said that I DO hope)...
Spoiler:
...that the Whisperers are just allowed to be the force of nature that they are in the comics, without too much explanation or humanization. IMO, they work much better as a mysterious 'Other', not completely unlike how the Tyranids operate in the 40K fluff. Every 'Tyranids were created by x!' fanfic I've read has been utterly lame, and I think a full Whisperers origin story would be the same.
But are we even getting the Whisperers next? I'm not 100% sure. Carl was basically the key character in the next phase in the comics, and with him out of the way on the show, things could diverge rather dramatically.
Though considering the show writers' recent history with creating new groups (trash people), I'm not too confident that a new group would be more compelling or better thought out than the Whisperers.
Considering that the current plot line seems to have been taken from the Woodbury novels I'm expecting an insane priest to show up by the end of the season...
I am personally so sick of characters suddenly getting these grand visions in their head that rule out all logical thinking until it all eventually collapses down on their head and they are forced to realize it was probably not a great idea. How many times is the show going to use this trope over and over again and expect us to care? Morgan not killing anyone. Carol wanting to live by herself and not talk to anyone. Rick wanting to farm and do no violence at all. Rick wanting to kill everyone all the time (and I'm sure I'm missing dozens from this list). I feel like Gabriel himself has had 1-2 different types of these crusades before. Were we supposed to care about him getting redemption if he managed to get the doctor back to Hilltop? Were we supposed to root for his failure because his 'quest' was obviously ridiculous?
Why can't we have real, actual character development on this show instead of constant ping-ponging of behavior types?
I just don't get it. Last week a chunk of the episode was about Neegan preaching about trying to figure out a way to resolve the war with as few casualties as possible. Then Simon goes and wipes out the trash people and not only do we get absolutely no resolution to that story (not a single member of Simon's team has more loyalty to Neegan than Simon? Really?) but all of a sudden this week Neegan wants to suddenly turn all the Hilltop people into zombies? And that wasn't even presented like Neegan was making a big change in approach, but rather just an idea that he got from Eugene?
I dunno...I probably 'liked' this one more than any episode in the first half of the season.
I get that people are tired of the vision quest thing, and don't necessarily disagree. However, I'm fairly confident that Gabriel's arrival at the bullet factory will end with him realizing he's in precisely the right place. It was already suggested by a new doctor's arrival at the Hilltop. The Lord has provided and put the pieces in the right spots...Gabriel just doesn't realize it yet and needs to hold onto his faith. At least I think that's where it will go.
Characters...sure, they continue to be an issue. I didn't think the show could ruin a character from the comics more than they did with Andrea, but Eugene is now #2 with a bullet. (Ha.)
Negan is still messy. I don't think the end was meant to suggest that he wants a war of annihilation just yet. But the actor and script tend to go for the 'muah-ha-has' and make that a little unclear. He's such a great character in the comics, and yet this creative team can't seem to figure out what to do with him. It's very frustrating, and with Carl now out of the picture I'm wondering about Negan's future. Feels like there's less need all the time for him to follow the path in the comics.
And Tara...man o man. Baffling that they'd keep that character around and kill off Carl, especially if *that* is what they plan to do with her.
Anyway, yeah, it wasn't particularly good television. But the bar has been set low by the midseason finale, and at least I wasn't scratching my head about where people are and what the heck they're doing. And at least the overproduced closeups and dramatic music are gone, along with the endless big speeches that fall flat. It's starting to feel a little more like TWD in the second half, and I think it's an improvement. They could only have gone up, of course, and I'm not sure it's going to be enough to reverse the steep ratings decline.
Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.
The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.
I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.
The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.
I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.
And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.
I rather fear you’re taking their decisions a little personally.
Anyways.
Last night’s episode, and so much needed action. Nice to see Negan and Rick have a bit of a showdown, and I’m interested to see how this all turns out for Simon.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.
The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.
I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.
And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.
Doing more bait and switches to troll comic fans will simply alienate me.
I'm already scratching my head wondering how they're going to paper over the gigantic hole that killing Carl off has created.
And yet another week has started, and two days have passed by before it even occurs to me to watch TWD. In fact, TWD would never even have crossed my mind if this thread had not jumped to the top of my Subscribed list. Didn't use to be this way, I used to stay up til 4am on a Monday morning to watch it at the same time as the Yanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, this episode was the final nail in the coffin for the character assassination of Eugene.
Not only have they completed perverted his character from the comics and made him into a traitor, but they've now...
Spoiler:
...introduced a random travelling Nomad lady selling schematics for windmills, watermills and all the other technological things that Eugene comes up with for the Communities after the War is over.
I'm fething done with this show, I want it to hurry and end. They're actively spiting comic fans now.
Last night’s episode, and so much needed action. Nice to see Negan and Rick have a bit of a showdown, and I’m interested to see how this all turns out for Simon.
...did you enjoy that showdown? Especially the part where Rick unloads two clips of an AK-47 into nothing to I guess rattle Negan a bit. You'd think living 7 years in a zombie apocalypse where only head shots count would have taught him some fire discipline.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Like with Game of Thrones, I've gotten to the point where I'm actively looking forward to its eventual cancellation. Hopefully they get enough forewarning to write a proper ending that wraps up loose ends.
The only reason I'm still watching the show is because I'm a fan of the comics and I've watched the show so far, so might as see it through to the conclusion.
I recorded it on monday but couldn't be arsed to watch it until Wednesday.I was in no hurry. I used to stay up late into the night on Sunday to watch it at the same time as the Americans, I was that excited for it.
And once again it seems to overestimate the comic audience. Why did we have to see the future vision quest from Carl on his deathbed? Everything in it was a spoiler for what's currently going on in the comic. A truly bizarre approach. Were they trying to say to the comic audience hold on guys I know you're not happy right now but look we're totally going to go where the comic is soon. After many years of watching this show I know its a red herring to feth over the comic readers. They'll swerve off in a completely different direction in a Ah Ha comic doucbags betcha didn't see that coming! Totally tricked you with that Carl spoiler vision quest thing that we did for some reason. Either way it's dumb and pointless.
Doing more bait and switches to troll comic fans will simply alienate me.
I'm already scratching my head wondering how they're going to paper over the gigantic hole that killing Carl off has created.
And yet another week has started, and two days have passed by before it even occurs to me to watch TWD. In fact, TWD would never even have crossed my mind if this thread had not jumped to the top of my Subscribed list. Didn't use to be this way, I used to stay up til 4am on a Monday morning to watch it at the same time as the Yanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, this episode was the final nail in the coffin for the character assassination of Eugene.
Not only have they completed perverted his character from the comics and made him into a traitor, but they've now...
Spoiler:
...introduced a random travelling Nomad lady selling schematics for windmills, watermills and all the other technological things that Eugene comes up with for the Communities after the War is over.
I'm fething done with this show, I want it to hurry and end. They're actively spiting comic fans now.
Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.
I don't think so. What purpose does Eugene serve now in the story? That stupid Nomad Merchant lady has taken Eugene's whole shtick, being the smart inventive type who leads the way in rebuilding society through technological innovation. At best they might have him redeem himself through a noble sacrifice, but he serves no real purpose now going forward.
The magic van lady -- let's be honest, she's a fairy godmother -- does seem to make Eugene less important. And if they off Eugene, I'm okay with it, because it's a shame what they've done to a great character in the comics.
And I'll say this -- although killing off Carl was baffling on many levels, it's very obvious that it will be the force driving the characters into the next phase. The comics have a much stronger, more consistent Rick who continually pulls the group across the line with the force of his will and guts. The show doesn't have that. So maybe it makes sense.
I don't think what we're getting right now is anywhere near the best quality TWD that we've seen, but I still think this half of the season has been an improvement over the nadir represented by the midseason finale. Feels like the characters are getting a little more room to do character stuff. I was fine waiting until Tuesday night to watch this episode however, and haven't gone near Talking Dead in forever. That says something.
Same here. I read the comics too so I'm still watching the show out of simple curiosity to see the big set piece events of the comics play out in Live Action. But even that is losing its appeal now.
Currently chewing my way through the previous seasons, and up to the second half of Season 4.
Whlist I continue to enjoy the show, there’s little doubt the quality has declined. But for my money, it’s still one of the few shows on TV I have any intrerest in whatsoever.
But where do people feel the problem(s) actually lie? Is the premise just a bit tired? Is the script, direction, acting?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Somehow I think they'll forgive or rehabilitate Eugene. Basing this on the Carl vision quest. Even though he's gone past the point of forgiveness for me he hasn't gone as far as Dwight and it seems Daryl has forgiven Dwight for that whole torturing him thing.
I don't think so. What purpose does Eugene serve now in the story? That stupid Nomad Merchant lady has taken Eugene's whole shtick, being the smart inventive type who leads the way in rebuilding society through technological innovation. At best they might have him redeem himself through a noble sacrifice, but he serves no real purpose now going forward.
Trouble with TV shows, is that actors may want to quit. Could be Eugene doesn’t survive Season 8, because the actor wants to move on.
Killing off important characters who still have crucial roles to play in the comics for crude shock value, leaving a big hole in the story that they're going to struggle to fill adequutely with another character, for one.
The show's pacing has always been abysmal. I don't think there's anything new wrong with it; just people increasingly aware of how little actual story there is in each episode. I also think for some reason Negan comes across in the show a bit more as the Gov 2.0 than he did in the comics. All Out War feels more like the Prison than I remember and I think that really makes the show feel like its lost its purpose.
I feel they need to wrap up Negan, and could’ve done so a bit quicker.
Going off-piste from the comics doesn’t bother me, as I’ve never read them. I’m not one to mix my mediums, by and large, preferring to enjoy one on its own merits until it’s concluded.
LunarSol wrote: The show's pacing has always been abysmal. I don't think there's anything new wrong with it; just people increasingly aware of how little actual story there is in each episode. I also think for some reason Negan comes across in the show a bit more as the Gov 2.0 than he did in the comics. All Out War feels more like the Prison than I remember and I think that really makes the show feel like its lost its purpose.
Kirkman just handles these characters better in the comic than the writers do in the show. Comic Negan is a *tremendous* character. You hate his guts and yet you also end up literally laughing out loud at the gak that comes out of his mouth (word balloon?). But y'know, a comic writer has complete control over his characters. It's not like that with live actors. It's more of a partnership that creates the characters.
As I've said many times in this thread, the show is highly focused on the changing moods of Rick. Comic Rick has had his ups and downs, but is a FAR more consistent personality than show Rick, who alternates between 'broken Rick' and 'bloodthirsty Rick' within just about every season. Part of that is probably because you have to give the star of your show some 'acting' to do. But it can make it feel like these characters drift a lot. Over time that adds up.
It should also be said that at a certain point, the ratings got crazy good, and that probably changed their approach to the show. It's different being a hit with general audiences than with a niche audience, and I think we saw a lot of very 'TV' styled audience manipulation in recent seasons in an attempt to keep those boffo ratings. In the process, I think they lost sight of telling the best story that they could.
Anyone else think that the 'jump the shark' moment was probably the Glenn dumpster dive?
Anyone else think that the 'jump the shark' moment was probably the Glenn dumpster dive?
Half of our viewing party decided they were done with the show after that one, so... yeah.
I was done before then, personally, but certainly by the time they had Glenn miraculously survive and then have Negan beat him to death anyway showed a degree of completely flailing with its characters.
Currently on the episode where we, erm....look at the flowers.
And it’s struck me that part of the problem may be that we the audience have become desensitised to the horrors the characters face.
On one hand, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. We see that they largely maintain their moral centres. Many of their actions are The Right Choice, however distasteful.
On the other, it does seem inevitable. The horde in Season 6 was a cracker in my opinion. Seeing the characters being smart, thinking their way out of it was very pleasing. But that’s an inevitable One Trick Pony. You just can’t replicate that, or increase the Walker threat beyond that point. Yet you have to do it sooner or later, or the threat becomes stale anyways.
Other slightly irksome things? The trick of covering yourself in gore, forgotten. Michonne’s Chop Shop Camoflague, forgotten. Sure the former is high risk due to the possibility of infections and diseases, but Michonne’s works.
Of course now, they’re focusing on the threat to new found civilisation. And not just a temporary reprieve. The Season 6 horde proved that between Alexandria’s walls, and a bit of thought, Alexandria is walker proof. It’s the humans that are the problem.
I fear that what they’ve failed to sell in the show (again, haven’t read the comics!) is why, with townships now established, they just can’t get along. That of course is a failure of story telling. Whilst I enjoy the interactions and the wider plot, there’s a missing link of motivation for just why Negan is so hard core. This week’s episode explained that a bit. And whilst I appreciate that effort, too little too late for many I fear. What most will know is that Rick and Negan hate each other, largely because reasons.
Why is Negan so brutal when he first meets people? How does he manage to rule over so many? I mean, I love the character, and I like the actor’s portrayal. But again, there’s just a slice of motivation missing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There’s also the issue of suddenly disposable cast members.
In the early seasons, there was at least an attempt to develop The Soon To Be Deceased so we felt the impact of their death.
And it can still be upsetting when a major character snuffs it, but they’re running out of those. Lots of Alexandrians have died. Anonymously. People you’ve never seen, even in the background, show up, then get shot up.
And that leads to my feeling that Alexandria has near infinite inhabitants, always just enough for a bit of a massacre which doesn’t actually dent numbers.
Consider Hilltop. We basically know Jesus and Gregory. Everyone else is relegated to cannon fodder or set dressing.
You know what I think the show needs? An episode or two where we don’t follow the Main Players. A below decks story where we see the inhabitants of Hilltop having a general chit chat about the situation. Give us a fresh perspective. Show that whilst they ultimately toe the line, it’s not done as blindly as it currently seems.
After all, everyone that’s survived this long is A Survivor. They must have some sort of skill, so give them some agency, eh?
It should also be said that at a certain point, the ratings got crazy good, and that probably changed their approach to the show. It's different being a hit with general audiences than with a niche audience, and I think we saw a lot of very 'TV' styled audience manipulation in recent seasons in an attempt to keep those boffo ratings. In the process, I think they lost sight of telling the best story that they could.
I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.
Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.
Big Mac wrote: I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.
Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.
Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.
Spoiler:
We know from Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 3: The New Frontier that Clementine is still alive and well in Richmond 2 year after All Out War. She even runs into Jesus, during his mounted Samurai Warrior phase.
Big Mac wrote: I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.
Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.
Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.
Spoiler:
We know from Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 3: The New Frontier that Clementine is still alive and well in Richmond 2 year after All Out War. She even runs into Jesus, during his mounted Samurai Warrior phase.
I didn't know that!
Clementine might be the only thing that can save TWD TV show.
Big Mac wrote: Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.
I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?
Big Mac wrote: Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.
I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?
Note that what I said is not the same thing as saying everything not in the comics is bad.
The Kingdom is fine with me. I have no problems believing there could be some wacky communities in the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are sillier than tigers. Daryl is a solid character, but he feels less important in the show all the time.
Didn't Kirkman say he put the tiger in the comic specifically to feth with the TV production staff and see how they'd handle it when they caught up with that part of the story?
Big Mac wrote: Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
All the worst stuff in the TV show is stuff that never happened in the books.
I disagree, the whole tiger and kingdom is beyond stupid imo and should be left out and replaced with something else. You don't like Darryl and Merrill's character that's added in?
Note that what I said is not the same thing as saying everything not in the comics is bad.
The Kingdom is fine with me. I have no problems believing there could be some wacky communities in the aftermath of a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are sillier than tigers. Daryl is a solid character, but he feels less important in the show all the time.
On the Daryl point, I think you may have something there.
Let’s take stock of our long time survivors. We’re essentially down to Rick, Carol, Maggie, Daryl, Michonne and Morgan. All strong characters, all capable. All believable as Survivors. Which is fine.
But....none of them have really developed since they settled in Alexandria. And worse, my previous point - nobody else has really received a great deal of development in their stead.
So whilst I still enjoy the show, it does need more than a bit of spit and polish. You can’t throw Drama at characters, and not have it noticeably change them and their relationships to each other.
Now I’m not creative enough to posit how that should be done. Just that as a regular viewer, they need to do something in that regard.
Big Mac wrote: I stopped watching after S7E7, just before the mid season finale, the RPG death animation was unwatchable, not to mention the reason behind it.
Looking back, I think when TWD started its death roll downhill, is when it let its female director to go do its off shoot FTWD; they just recycle the same story line, stick too close to the comics. Comic contents should stick to the comics, its unwatchable on a tv platform.
I had really wish they did some kind of bump in with Clementine, the characters from the video game.
Clementine is still a possibility, she's still alive as of this point in the comic timeline.
Spoiler:
We know from Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 3: The New Frontier that Clementine is still alive and well in Richmond 2 year after All Out War. She even runs into Jesus, during his mounted Samurai Warrior phase.
I didn't know that!
Clementine might be the only thing that can save TWD TV show.
That would just annoy me. I like how the comic and game are in the same universe and the show is over in its own.
Better episode tonight. Though they really need to be wrapping up The Saviours plot arc this season.
Much as I think they do big set piece battles really well (tactics being demonstrated, and the benefit thereof), they don’t allow a great deal of character development.
Case in point? Dr Disposable. Seemingly only introduced to ‘rubber stamp’ Siddiq as a medically trained person that’ll be learning on the job. I swear she’s fresh out of nowhere as a character, and only obliquely referenced by Maggie in a recent episode. And even then, it was so oblique I assumed she was referring to Siddiq himself when she said they’d got themselves a Doctor!
She was referring to Sidique. It was in the context of a discussion on how Carl sacrificed his life saving a stranger and bringing him into Alexandria > and now they have a Doctor. Direct causal link implied in the conversation.
This new female Doctor at the Hilltop was literally invented and killed off in one episode. I didn't even learn her name. Thats how disposable background characters are on this show, they're invented just to be killed off. Its as if random strangers including Doctors just wander into the 3 communities on a daily basis, are instantly accepted and integrated into the general population without any on-screen acknowledgement from the main cast, and then killed off immediately for a superficial sense of drama and tragedy.
When Simon began creeping up on Tara with his infected knife I thought "Gak! Maybe someone of importance will actually be killed off this episode!" But nope...they had Dwight shoot her with an untainted arrow to protect her from Simon (instead of having him shoot Rick as in the comics).
The only character of note that I know died this episode was Tobin, the guy from Alexandria who Carol had a brief tryst with. I was puzzled as to why they seemed so close, I'd forgotten that they had something between them. And I actually forgot his name too, and had to look it up. I just recognised his face.
So...yet another shallow filler episode where nothing of any real importance occurs.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Better episode tonight. Though they really need to be wrapping up The Saviours plot arc this season.
Much as I think they do big set piece battles really well (tactics being demonstrated, and the benefit thereof), they don’t allow a great deal of character development.
Case in point? Dr Disposable. Seemingly only introduced to ‘rubber stamp’ Siddiq as a medically trained person that’ll be learning on the job. I swear she’s fresh out of nowhere as a character, and only obliquely referenced by Maggie in a recent episode. And even then, it was so oblique I assumed she was referring to Siddiq himself when she said they’d got themselves a Doctor!
To each their own, I suppose.
After last week's way more fun/interesting episode, I felt like we went right back to the 'trope' playbook, where everything has to play out in the same tired way exactly as it needs to be as dictated by the playbook.
I still don't understand why the lack of resources in this world can't be something that actually becomes part of the action and conversation. Why is everyone still firing their guns on full auto when anyone with a brain knows its horribly inefficient/inaccurate to do so even when you've got an unlimited supply of ammo (which they certainly do not)? Why can't people have conversations about how they need to conserve ammo and then have the action scenes represent that? Because the showrunners clearly think that having tons of guns firing on full auto is a way to hide how bad the show is now.
The genius defensive strategy of the Hilltop was to open their gate and just let the Saviors inside? Sure, that plan can work in an actual castle where the interior keep area is completely secure (with a second set of walls), but even that tactic was reserved only for when the enemy managed to penetrate the gate...they didn't just open their gates to let the enemy inside. Those walls around the hilltop absolutely have defensive value and they totally threw it all away. I guess they were trying to give the Saviors the impression that they were stupid/afraid? I suppose. But if that's the case, I think they could have done a much better job of showing how they fortified the interior of the walls to prevent the enemy from simply running around inside the walls getting the drop on some of the defenders. I mean, Simon and Dwight were clearly sneaking up BEHIND Tara (who was shooting at another Savior who was between her and the walls), which perfectly illustrates that their plan, at best, was terribly organized.
And yay, another idiotic child character whose only purpose is to behave like a complete idiot and push the plot forward in a completely ridiculous fashion. It is just so, so, so cliched and painful. Where the heck were the guards watching the prisoners? Are we supposed to believe that they leave the prisoners unguarded all night long with only wire to keep them locked in? Really? Really? The worst part is, if the goal was mainly just to have the prisoners escape (as it seems), it was completely unnecessary to have the kid be the one to accidentally free them given the stupid 'zombie attack at night' plot. They could have just had one shot showing the guards fleeing the cage when they heard the commotion in the house and then had the prisoners (who have no doubt been waiting for their chance to escape) spring into action and break themselves out.
Which brings me back to the stupid 'zombies attack at night' scene. This was stupid on so many levels I just kept face-palming myself because I couldn't believe they were actually doing it on the show. First, the idea that every single person hit by the poisoned arrows would die in roughly the same period of time is pretty shakey internal logic, because it goes against what we've seen time and time again on the show where some people succumb to the zombie plague much more quickly than others. But I could certainly get over that little inconsistency if it was the most egregious part of the whole situation...but sadly it wasn't.
Amazingly, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the house goes to sleep at the same time? Apparently the only people on watch are out at the gates (which they never even bothered to show)? With that many people, that is INCREDIBLY unlikely. Nobody has insomnia? Nobody was so jacked up about the life or death battle they just lived through that they couldn't sleep? Please.
But even if every single person is unbelievably asleep when the first sick person died in their sleep, how is it magically that anytime walkers attack in the night they somehow turn into Tom Clancy zombies and manage to kill people without their victims being able to scream? Zombies don't give a crap about preventing their victims from screaming, so having even more than ONE kill happen in this fashion before everyone in the house is alerted and awakened is simply insulting. But then the showrunners had to just pile it on, and have a zombie fall down 2-3 FLIGHTS OF STAIRS AND HIT THE GROUND a few feet away from dozens of sleeping people and nobody wakes up? Those old houses are all wood and creaky as crap. Someone falling down a flight of stairs is VERY loud and people should have shot up out of their sleep when they heard that. It was just so, so idiotic.
The showrunners clearly just decided 'we need to have a zombie night attack' and threw out absolutely all logic and common sense from that point on to make it happen. Ignoring the fact that they already did essentially the same thing before in the prison season. So we absolutely did NOT need another 'zombie night attack' again in this show, as it was already done before and is therefore played out. In any decent show, our 'heroes' should have learned from the night zombie attack prison incident that they always keep someone awake during the night anytime you have injured or sick people (or really anytime, because you never know when someone is going to die from a heart attack or aneurysm). By having this night attack occur again, its another way that makes our 'heroes' seem even more like bumbling idiots, which is something this show seems to do comically often anytime they need to force a completely unbelievable situation into existence.
And again, it all wasn't needed. Since the whole zombie 'night attack' trope has already been played out in a previous season, why not go down a more interesting route where maybe ONE person turns in the night and kills ONE other person before everyone else gets awakened? Then you can actually have an interesting set of scenes where everyone figures out the weapons had to have been poisoned, and those who are infected realize they are doomed. We've obviously seen individuals bitten before facing the reality of their fate, but we've never had so many people infected/doomed all at once. So seeing how that was situation would be handled, how those people collectively would have to face the fact that they were all going to die within hours would have been something...you know...NEW.
But no. We got the same paint by numbers formula which is all this show does. Stupid defensive plan designed to make a chaotic full-auto battle? Check. Stupid stealthy night zombie attack? Check. Idiotic child who makes terrible decisions? Check. No name characters who never get any lines until the episode where they are going to die? Check, check, check.
They just need to do more than intro/kill new characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And my old season binge continues to Episode 1,Season 6.
Now....that quarry.
Walkers have already proven to be stupid, and their clothes flammable.
And once nicely toasted, pretty much useless.
I suspect I’m overlooking something, but why not a dozen or so strategic Molotov’s? Doesn’t matter where you lob them. Indeed, have your throwers on one side, and peeps on the other side to make some noise.
Roasty toasty, disabled if not kill the lot of them, then a leisurely head stabbing spree.
It’s not that Rick’s plan is fundamentally flawed, I just think mine is better.
I was thinking this episode about how long this war has been. If named character from either side died in each shootout we would have actually felt like what its like to go through a grueling months long bush war a la the Hatfields and the McCoys. The cast is so bloated now anyway. For example, Terra really could have died this episode, that would have been totally fine. Instead just a whole lot of Redshirts were chewed up again.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I still don't understand why the lack of resources in this world can't be something that actually becomes part of the action and conversation. Why is everyone still firing their guns on full auto when anyone with a brain knows its horribly inefficient/inaccurate to do so even when you've got an unlimited supply of ammo (which they certainly do not)? Why can't people have conversations about how they need to conserve ammo and then have the action scenes represent that? Because the showrunners clearly think that having tons of guns firing on full auto is a way to hide how bad the show is now.
It drives me crazy as well. I do think they have some syndrome were they've decided "full auto looks better on TV" but also I swear they don't do this just because it was done in the comic.
Spoiler:
In the comic Eugene can make bullets and it's like his superpower. He is physically timid and he knows he's useless in a firefight but he wants to contribute. To make up for this he literally almost works himself to death making ammo for the Alexandrians and this is one of the main reasons they win the war. He's literally a god damn war hero to everyone for his work ethic and brains by the end. It's also why he's one of the most beloved characters in the comic.
So of course the show has to be the opposite and have Eugene a traitor who gives the Neganites unlimited ammo. Even though I think he only started up his shop like yesterday. Fortunately, it doesn't matter because The Alexandrians have unlimited ammo through the power of magic. So, like, whatever.
I'll never forgive this show for what it did to Eugene as a character.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: How many members of the main cast have died this Season, besides Carl? (who is the one character besides Rick that SHOULDN'T have been killed off... )
I wasn't that broken up about Carl (who wasn't even killed in the war) because they had taken everything that made Carl Carl from the comic and....given it to Carol. Some typo in the manuscript gone horribly awry? One of the themes in the comic is that the generation of kids growing up now will be equal parts total badasses and totally messed up in the head as well. We look forward to seeing the Zombie Apocalypses first generation will become. In the show Carol is the next generation and the children do stupid TV things like unlock a cage full of prisoners....
Like the bizarre anti-Eugene storyline its important to make characters be the opposite of themselves...just cuz.
Meanwhile they kill characters who are likeable. I miss that one Saviour guy who lead the group at The Kingdom. In that scene I was thinking, "oh thank god, they aren't going to give this guy a cliche death and he can survive post-war as a cool character!". Then nope, gets killed by a kid. Eugh...
Spoiler:
Given that the war's going to end in peace, hopefully there's some Saviours who aren't complete dirt bags who survive. I can see the show maintaining them as villains who get killed off one by one. The comics imply that the remaining Saviours continued to want to be a power, even if separate from the other communities, but it'd be interesting if we had them at peace for a while. ...Then we could get some actual character development instead of having everyone being evil all the time. ¬¬
Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.
...they're going to skip the Whisperers and get right to the Commonwealth (or some version of it)?
Carl was the 'in' to the Whisperers in the books, and he's pushing up daisies in the show now. They could give his Romeo and Juliet stuff to someone else, but who? And would the Whisperers story be as compelling without the look inside and R&J stuff?
Meanwhile, both Georgie and the helicopter (and Jadis too, because clearly there's more going on with her than we first thought) suggest Commonwealth-level resources.
It occurs to me that telling the Whisperers story could mean walker and CGI budgets that are larger than AMC is willing to swallow at this point. A Commonwealth story -- which would probably be divergent from the books -- would certainly be cheaper.
What's more, it moves the show closer to a conclusion, which I think AMC almost certainly has to have in mind given the ratings trend and the high probability that they're going to lose key actors to other career opportunities soon. It also seems hard to believe that they'd set up the Commonwealth (or some version of it), only to set it aside for a season or two to tell the Whisperers tale. Then again, they've certainly baffled me with their decisions in recent seasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.
I think that reaction is just a natural result of show Rick wildly veering from Mr. Softee to Conan the Barbarian with such regularity.
I can imagine books Rick taking the same action, but there it makes sense because he's the kind of hard-ass that would have seen them as a security risk at that time.
Bit of an odd episode in terms of pacing and content, but enjoyable enough.
For those familiar with the comics, how far off-piste is the show going now? Is it sufficient that I could now read the comics without worrying about spoilers?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Bit of an odd episode in terms of pacing and content, but enjoyable enough.
For those familiar with the comics, how far off-piste is the show going now? Is it sufficient that I could now read the comics without worrying about spoilers?
Oh yeah, that was a while ago. The show just follows the general direction of the major arcs. The details are all different. Read the comic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: So do any other comics readers think that...
Spoiler:
...they're going to skip the Whisperers and get right to the Commonwealth (or some version of it)?
Carl was the 'in' to the Whisperers in the books, and he's pushing up daisies in the show now. They could give his Romeo and Juliet stuff to someone else, but who? And would the Whisperers story be as compelling without the look inside and R&J stuff?
Meanwhile, both Georgie and the helicopter (and Jadis too, because clearly there's more going on with her than we first thought) suggest Commonwealth-level resources.
It occurs to me that telling the Whisperers story could mean walker and CGI budgets that are larger than AMC is willing to swallow at this point. A Commonwealth story -- which would probably be divergent from the books -- would certainly be cheaper.
What's more, it moves the show closer to a conclusion, which I think AMC almost certainly has to have in mind given the ratings trend and the high probability that they're going to lose key actors to other career opportunities soon. It also seems hard to believe that they'd set up the Commonwealth (or some version of it), only to set it aside for a season or two to tell the Whisperers tale. Then again, they've certainly baffled me with their decisions in recent seasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Sigh, that last scene where Rick breaks his word and backstabs those guys....Like I straight up hate most of the Alexandrians or whatever they should be called now. Why should I even care about what happens to them? Is this on purpose? I don’t even get what the authorial intent of all the detestable things they do is. Am I supposed to hate Rick or does this stuff make him cool and therefore endear him more to me? Ditto, on Daryl who executed an unarmed man a few episodes back.
I think that reaction is just a natural result of show Rick wildly veering from Mr. Softee to Conan the Barbarian with such regularity.
I can imagine books Rick taking the same action, but there it makes sense because he's the kind of hard-ass that would have seen them as a security risk at that time.
Regarding your comic book arc story skipping theory I was thinking that as well but that’s a pretty huge storyline to skip. Maybe they’re just doing some extra early foreshadowing, I think they’ve done that before.
Negan. Where did he get the pistol and flare from all of a sudden? Is it a 'blinked and missed it' bit?
Rick running into Morgan. Where did Carol go, and how did Rick get there so quick?
Negan said something along the lines of: "you obviously don't really want to kill me or you wouldn't have left this bag of guns near me". Right before she walked out with the zombie-on-a-cart, you saw him shimmy to the right really hard, and then from that line we learned that there was a bag of guns, the pictures and a flare that she had left right near him.
Rick got the info about the location of the outpost from the reformed savior prisoner and drove there. Morgan was tracking them on foot. So they just happened on the same location at the same time.
Carol had started following Morgan, but then gave up when she realized she couldn't stop Morgan from his vengeance and then wandered off and found the kid being attacked by zombies.
Yep, it was pretty inexplicable why a bag of guns was there, but I am taking the view that this is all just some group RPing PA based on the WD survivors and he spent a character point or something. Rick's player is really hack n slash but RPs it up so the DM doesn't make him go evil. It makes alot more sense when you think of it this way- ass pulls when characters need it, never kill off the main group, filler sessions, I mean episodes, etc.
I still feel it's decent slice of TV. I've seen better, but there's nothing else I really watch. Well, barring Still Game, which remains frankly brilliant.
Looking forward to tonight's episode, as always. Though busy nights viewing. Wrestlemania on the commute home, The Last Jedi then Walking Dead. Just ain't enough hours in the day!
jmurph wrote: Yep, it was pretty inexplicable why a bag of guns was there, but I am taking the view that this is all just some group RPing PA based on the WD survivors and he spent a character point or something. Rick's player is really hack n slash but RPs it up so the DM doesn't make him go evil. It makes alot more sense when you think of it this way- ass pulls when characters need it, never kill off the main group, filler sessions, I mean episodes, etc.
Feth, now I kind of want to read a comic strip based on that. Like those old Lord of the Rings/ Star Wars strips. What were they? DM of the Rings & Darth and Droids?
But, common complaint is common - the sudden shift at Hilltop at the end. It feels like there's a scene been cut somewhere, where the roots of that disagreement began.
But onwards and, hopefully, upwards. New Showrunner for Season 9, in the shape of regular writer for the series Angela Kang.
But, common complaint is common - the sudden shift at Hilltop at the end. It feels like there's a scene been cut somewhere, where the roots of that disagreement began.
But onwards and, hopefully, upwards. New Showrunner for Season 9, in the shape of regular writer for the series Angela Kang.
The "disagreement" began when Rick let Negan live.
Problem with the new show runner is Gimple is still in charge of everything. Hopefully he's more directional and less hands on. I used to love the guy but this season and parts of last season made me basically just stop watching about 3 episodes before the finale. I plan on watching the finale and then Fear which was excellent last season. I'm hoping Gimple keeps his mitts off it.
I think a lot of the problem has been them reaching so hard to maintain their ratings. I don't think they need to work this hard and it's making them do stupid things and not focus on the right things. Since Fear has never been a blockbuster ratings wise I'm hoping they mostly let it keep going on a show by show basis the way it has been. Far, far better characters overall.
The finale went mostly as expected for people who know the comics.
I still wish the characters of Rick and Negan had been handled more like the comics. But at least they didn't have show Negan ponder whether Rick was right about all the communities working together. Show Negan wasn't as bright or stable as books Negan.
I also still don't like Eugene's heel turn. It didn't add any drama when his sabotage got a big reveal, because they'd already made him too unlikeable. But maybe that's just baggage from Gimple that the new lead writer will clean up.
I maintain that the second half of the season was a marked improvement from the disastrous first half, mainly because they smartly focused on character interactions instead of lamely-shot action sequences. It wasn't the best that the show has been, but it was a little better, and started to feel more like TWD again.
A heel turn for Maggie and Jesus would be incredibly unfortunate though, and feels like Eugene redux. Perhaps the end goal is Ms. Cohan's exit from the show, since her contract is apparently an issue.
@Hulk -- Fear has been really good, and I liked the opener. Sure, it's contrived to force Morgan onto the show, but they managed it as well as they could have IMO, and the end result should be a really solid cast of characters.
@Hulk -- Fear has been really good, and I liked the opener. Sure, it's contrived to force Morgan onto the show, but they managed it as well as they could have IMO, and the end result should be a really solid cast of characters.
Glad to hear it. Haven't watched it yet and I am leery of getting him onto the show. I think he'll be fantastic in a much less....judgy....group. And the fact that we don't see the same characters make the same stupid mistakes over and over again in that show is such a relief so far. With so much of the original cast gone from TWD and so much of the remaining cast not getting a ton of development time plus the killing off of Carl I'm not sure I'll turn on TWD next season. But Fear still has me excited. Like Into the Badlands does
Here's a thing, and I've not read the comics so I don't know how feasible this might be, but did anyone else notice that thanks to Rick's cut, Negan can now only speak in a... whisper?
Azreal13 wrote: Here's a thing, and I've not read the comics so I don't know how feasible this might be, but did anyone else notice that thanks to Rick's cut, Negan can now only speak in a... whisper?
Spoiler:
Negan's stuck in a cell for a few years, before getting out and then meeting up with the Whisperers. Whom he gets chummy with. The Whisperers of course being people who talk in whispers.
Though post those events he goes back to his usual snarky self, so I wouldn't want to miss out on the characterisation of those scenes if we can help it.
Ah, but I'm not amazingly happy with how the show's handling the Saviours. Mostly in who its choosing to kill off, considering they're going to go from bad guys to neutral eventually. In which case we're losing out on some interesting characters in the name of moving the plot arbitrarily forward (as in screw that Kingdom kid. Honestly, god what a cliche character; worse still that he killed off a better character as part of his arc).
Negan's not had any flash back scenes has he? Do we think that he'll have some in the next season?
Spoiler:
Along with Negan explaining his reasoning like he did in the comics; driving home that he really did think he was saving people (from themselves). They've brushed it in the show, but they could do with playing up the Saviours as not just a bunch of generic bad guys (which admittedly many of them were, Negan was just using them as muscle to fulfil his goals).
Andrew Lincoln leaving the show, and Norman Reedus to take center stage!?
Mild spoilers ahead for folks who aren’t caught up on The Walking Dead.
We’re hearing that, by the end of Season 9 of AMC’s hit drama series The Walking Dead, Rick Grimes himself will be walking away. That’s right TWD enthusiasts, Andrew Lincoln will be growling his way through the post-apocalyptic setting for just one more season before calling it quits. And while we won’t be spoiling just how the series’ founding character makes his exit, we do know that fans can only expect to see Lincoln in half-a-dozen episodes of the upcoming season.
Any time a major character from the show shuffles off this mortal coil (or heads to a spin-off series), it’s a big deal, but for the characters who have been there from the beginning like Rick Grimes & Co., their loss is catastrophic. We saw that effect when Chandler Riggs left the show just last season and we’ll likely see an even bigger fan fallout when Lincoln leaves in Season 9. To fill the void in the show’s leading man status, we’re also hearing that AMC has offered substantial compensation to long-running series star Norman Reedus to not only stay on board, but to take over the show’s leading role.
Off-screen drama has been fairly common for The Walking Dead this off-season with star Lauren Cohan, who’s not quite a TWD original but close, making waves across social media by holding out for a better contract. Her case was strengthened by the Season 8 finale, which put her character Maggie in a position of power that ironically mirrored Cohan’s own bargaining position at the negotiating table. Cohan is confirmed to be back for Season 9 of The Walking Dead, though it’ll only be for six episodes as well; her ABC pilot Whiskey Cavalier has been ordered to series, keeping her plenty busy. It’s possible that AMC will cut ties with both Lincoln and Cohan this season … or vice versa. Lincoln has been relatively locked down in the eight-plus years of starring on The Walking Dead, and while it’s a lucrative job, it limits the versatile star from taking on other creative challenges. Cohan, too, has been a sought-after talent during the recent TV pilot season and has increasingly high-profile films on deck at this stage in her career.
Don’t worry though, fans; Daryl Dixon is here to stay for the foreseeable future, so there’s no need to riot just yet.
Without Rick, Carl, or Maggie...it might just be time to call it a series. I don't see how 'The Daryl Show' will be compelling. Daryl is a great supporting character, but not a lead character.
Personally I think a lot of this is coming from several factors;
-Andrew Lincoln isn't enjoying the show anymore
-Andrew Lincoln probably isn't happy with how they handled Chandler after Chandler had made huge changes to his schedule to continue on the show.
-He's probably not happy with the jerking around they are doing with Maggie's actor.
-His "Family" has been removed. Outside of a couple of people the cast that made it a family have been taken out back and shot essentially. There is only Maggie, Daryl, Michonne, and Carol left. And they dusted half of the longer running cast members over just a season and a half.
-I feel there is a bit of discontent at how the entire "project is being run". I'll explain in the spoilers below. (Do not read if you care about spoilers for FTWD and haven't at least watched the first 3 episodes of the new season)
Spoiler:
The quality of TWD has dropped over the last 2 seasons. It's been trying desperately to live up to it's high points and instead of focussing on good story telling like had happened previously it's gone to shock TV and major character deaths to generate numbers. The problem is that this doesn't generally last. I think most of it started with bouncing Glen and Abraham at the same time. Both characters also brought life and energy to the show and to lose both at once and have mullet go darkside for essentially 2 seasons badly damaged the show.
I'll say it. I don't think Gimple is cut out to run a show like this for long. And it gets worse now that he is in charge of FTWD. It shows in that the character who plays Nick in FTWD left the show suddenly and didn't bother to show up for his Talking Dead appearance after he died. I think the franchise is almost trying to hard and while I had hope that FTWD would fill the hole I felt with TWD with Nick's death and Gimple's hand in that pool to now I might just be done.
Oh, and there is no f-ing joy on either show. There used to be ups with the downs. Without ups I see no reason to just be beat with downs an hour or two a week.
I think there's plenty of reason to question Gimple at this point. That being said, I thought FTWD has been good again this season, although I question the logic of the event you referred to there.
Again, I don't see how 'The Daryl Show' works. AMC and Gimple seem content to ride TWD all the way to the bottom and milk every dime they can out of the show even if it means ruining it as a franchise. The thing is going to look a lot like Happy Days after basically every character of consequence left except Fonzie, an all-time great supporting character that can't carry a show on its own.
Fine by me I hate Rick the most of everyone on the show so I think its a good thing. Now they can really go off in a different direction which actually seems to work better for this show anyway.
And yes FTWD has become good again. I actually had to stop watching it last year the second half got so bad which is a shame because the first half of the season was decent.
Reading the comics first then watching the show gives you a definite disconnect. Its like they took every major plot point, turned it into an action scene, then threw in some more action scenes between those as filler. The comics were written fine, but they feel the need to change things unnecessarily, with the endless violence just being boring.
Not to mention all the plot holes that they induce in order to facilitate a show piece. That last scene in the Saviour's arc where the majority of them kill themselves was ridiculous. Apparently out of the, what hundreds (?), of guys there, not one of them fired their gun that day. Or all those scenes where they fire their guns on automatic whilst not being able to hit anything until the plot dictates (I remember watching one scene thinking "they're going to make them all shoot on full auto randomly aren't they? Its going to be ridiculous, but they're going to do it). ...Ah, nobody told the writers that there probably isn't that many select fire AKs in the whole State its set in at the time of writing.
The comics aren't much better to be fair. Characters at this point seem interchangeable in how they act, all pulling the same gormless facial expressions on queue and with dumb one page cliffhangers that're quickly resolved on the next page over with no dramatic effect (its like they're doing it as a joke). Kirkman's new series Oblivion Song is better, but I'm wondering if that's just because its in a new setting and in fact we're just seeing the same characterisation again, though haven't noticed yet.
Well folks, we’re a smidgen over a week away from the new season, so I felt it was time to awaken Ye Thread Of Olde.
New show runner, outgoing main character (though whether through ded or just departing remains to be seen) and some stuff readers of the comics will know of. Also a time jump from the end of the last season.
I’m pretty excite for this, having enjoyed even the slower seasons. Interested to see if a new head honcho can put some verve back into it.
Not only are the ‘wars’ over, but we’re following True Survivors. The logic of what and why they were doing in the museum works. It’s people with time to breath and actually think doing sensible things, even things that won’t pay off for a while. That is a big change, and one I welcome. Short termism is over.
The time jump is clear, but I feel fairly nearly glossed over.
We’re also seeing tensions between the settlements and colonies. Questioning of Rick’s decisions. I happen to agree with Rick’s approach (think of the graffiti. Rick’s plan helps show you don’t have to be Negan to be fed and safe). And it was immensely gratifying to see Maggie ‘Doing What Actually Needed Doing A Long Time Ago’. But clearly stating she wants and needs that act to be a one off.
Suffice to say it’s not quite the full shilling yet, but I’m genuinely intrigued to see how this goes, and how it all develops.
Here’s my bet. Rick and Maggie will be written out, but not killed. Instead I think we’ll see and then follow a group that can no longer return to civilisation. The Carols, The Daryls, the Morgans. Those that have just spent too long on the road, too long fighting tooth and nail to settle down. I suspect they’ll put their skills to use expanding the alliance of survivors. Heading it into the wilderness where they thrived and found themselves as they try to find other enclaves, and contribute that way.
That could give the show a far tighter focus for at least a season or two, before returning to the established settlements.
Thought it was ok. Certainly better than some of last seasons episodes but cant say it was a super opening.
Hope they dont get too caught up in the whole internal politics thing between camps although no idea where they could take it without that. Feck it, just bring out some super zombies at this stage.
Plus they so need to utilise the guy who played Captain Vane in BlackSails!
I think they may be aiming for a few transition episodes. Start moving it to the new show runners vision. WD doesn't suit the sort of 'clean break' you can get with Dr Who after all.
I feel the internal politics may actually stand to save the show. Give us tension between previously good friends, as they start to rebuild civilisation. After all, they were friends of convenience to start with - all survivors thrown together, who had to get along.
Now peacetime has come? Some may struggle to adapt back (hence I feel Daryl, Carol and Morgan may go off a-wandering, giving the show a chance to refocus, or at least vary), the Ricktatorship can no longer being A Thing - and we're seeing elements of that.
Show us how people come back from the edge. Show the better nature of Maggie and Rick compared to Negan and The Governor. A period of adjustment and negotiation could be just what we need.
I think the new showrunner is an improvement, and I think we saw her influence in the back half of last season. Like those episodes, this season opener isn't nearly the best TWD has been, but it's better than the drek that we saw in the first half of last season.
Regarding where the show goes from here -- as I know I've said before in this thread, TWD isn't a story about the end of the world, but the beginning of a new one. Each adversary they've faced represents a different approach to the new world. That was lost on the show somewhat when they portrayed Negan as too much of a Governor-styled despot. Comics Negan is a much shrewder guy and more complicated (and funnier).
Anyway, the catch is that I think both the comic and show have fans that would prefer the crew to be in desperate circumstances and on the run all the time. That's not quite what's going to happen, so I expect that the show will lose viewers just as the comic seems to have lost readers.
Personally, I still like the comic. It's just at a much different place in the story. The next group they encounter on the show should be an interesting one though, provided that the do it justice (they really didn't with Negan and the Saviors).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mysterio wrote: ...to kill the ratings more than they've already managed.
This show has maybe one more year after this one, and then it will end, finally.
Maybe, but Happy Days limped along for a couple years after almost every important character left and it became the Fonzie show. TWD is on a similar path and not coincidentally has a bike-riding, leather-wearing, tough guy with a kind heart who's a *great* supporting character but not a character capable of carrying a show. They ought to just embrace it and have Daryl jump a pit full of zombies on his bike.
We did see him working on a bike, and there's a bridge that's out. Just saying...
Whilst the actor absolutely made Negan incredibly charismatic, they took too long to explain why he chose that approach - he’s vicious and brutal, because he genuinely believes he knows best. He doesn’t necessarily like what he’s doing, but like King Ezekiel (sp?), he puts on his front, because he needs people to believe in the legend.
And because they didn’t get to the core of that quickly enough, the impact of why Simon utterly failed as his replacement just didn’t land.
I’ve never read the comics (I’m not one to mix media. It’s a quick), so I dunno how it played out there. But on the show I feel the frustrating thing is we do see glimmers of potential brilliance that don’t quite manifest.
I’m totally in for this season, and the one after. From there, I may give up if it’s the same old same old. Much as I enjoy it, you need changes of pace and direction periodically. Lest you end up like a Soap Opera, where Dispoable Villiain A is finally dethroned, only to be replaced with Disposable Villain B, that’s pretty much Disposable Villain A, just in a slightly more fetching suit.
GOOD LORD! Character development! Tension! Smarter ideas! Still the odd ropey decision made off screen.
But the glimmer of improvement seen in Episode 1, just sparkled a little bit brighter.
Importantly, Maggie and Daryl’s motivations and take on things is making sense,
We’re far from out the woods yet, but there’s at least some sense of direction. Log scene was pretty cool as well, even if the CGI remains somewhat unpolished.
I think it's still better than last year but there was quite a bit of dumb in this. Log set up is all wrong. Why would you give someone like the savior the job of keeping the camp safe. The other two were super trusted people and single from a hole town. Rick, instead of taking his time because what was left of the herd was no threat SHOOTS a rope and undoes a metric ton of work based on the way they do things and sets it back further....
With regard to the second siren bloke, I feel like there was an exposition screen cut regarding his deployment. Perhaps something along the lines of Rick and his second chances.
Log thing didn’t bother me, because the impact was pretty cool.
Overall, the whole ‘everyone learning to pull together’ angle is working for me. The communal bridge camp basically confirms what I’ve always thought about humanity. Enough of us just want to get on with our lives that we can happily share. It’s just the extremists (including Daryl, which is very much in character for him) that can’t or won’t move on.
One thing did fall a bit flat. Negan attempting to taunt Rick as to why he’s bothering, because Carl snuffed it. As taunts go, it just doesn’t work, because Rick is shown not to be that self centred. He used to be a Copper, and that’s something people tend to go into from a sense of community, and wanting to protect others.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, Rick's family isn't gone. He's still got the sprog and Michonne.
For someone who dosent follow the comics:
Wasnt there helicopters shown a couple of episodes? Are they pure teaser bits for the TV show?
The Whisperers havent arrived yet correct?
Has the whole government attempted cure (from end of S1) been totally dropped?
There have been helicopter pass overs in EVERY season. They're always mysterious and hardly ever explained. The only one that might be is the one from the first episode, which was the one that was shown in season 2 to have crashed and the Governor killing the crew.
Whisperers have been teased as far back as 2 seasons ago, and again last season. They may, or may not, have made an appearance at the end of last episode.
I was pretty meh on the season so far until this latest episode. I was genuinely interested to see how people could not let things go and it’s quite understandable. It’s not just good guys vs bad guys there’s finally something compelling happening.
Yeah, he's definitely out. And a guiding light sacrifice to bring everyone together is most likely as we dont have enough time for a more washingtonian good bye.
But I’m just not sure that Andrew Lincoln would definitely shut that door.
See, I remember him when he was Egg in the sublime 90’s show ‘This Life’. Between that and Walking Dead, he didn’t do a massive amount of work.
We know he’s very, very well paid for Walking Dead. Taking a break is one thing, and totally understandable. But actually full on ending that revenue stream? I dunno. I personally am not convinced.
Well I guess that’s that. They almost got it right. I think the flashback/vision quest thing was the way to go but this episode should have been 100% Rick. There’s no need to check with the B, C and D plots this episode. Also, it was cool seeing Shane and Herschel but it made the absence of Lori, Carl and Glen very noticeable. You can’t have a vision quest without those people but I guess the actors didn’t want to do it. Oh well, certainly the end of an era.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, spoke too soon? Thought the episode was over but apparently the Rick era may not be over after all...
Anyone else surprised they’re gonna bring in the Whisperers?! Figured it would be too big of an arc...but hey, they confirmed it in Talking Dead after the show, so it isn’t comic book info. Not gonna lie, the show was getting stale...but the whole thing with Ann stealing Rick away and that little hint of what’s to come got me back in, ready to see what happens.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Well I guess that’s that. They almost got it right. I think the flashback/vision quest thing was the way to go but this episode should have been 100% Rick. There’s no need to check with the B, C and D plots this episode. Also, it was cool seeing Shane and Herschel but it made the absence of Lori, Carl and Glen very noticeable. You can’t have a vision quest without those people but I guess the actors didn’t want to do it. Oh well, certainly the end of an era.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, spoke too soon? Thought the episode was over but apparently the Rick era may not be over after all...
After their disgusting treatment of Chandler Riggs (sacking him shortly after he moved to Georgia to be closer to work) I'm not surprised he doesn't want to return for a cameo.
A decent episode and enjoyed the vision bits and ending but this 1000 times. I mean Sasha over Lori or Glen?
Also, it was cool seeing Shane and Herschel but it made the absence of Lori, Carl and Glen very noticeable. You can’t have a vision quest without those people but I guess the actors didn’t want to do it.
Ratius wrote: A decent episode and enjoyed the vision bits and ending but this 1000 times. I mean Sasha over Lori or Glen?
Also, it was cool seeing Shane and Herschel but it made the absence of Lori, Carl and Glen very noticeable. You can’t have a vision quest without those people but I guess the actors didn’t want to do it.
The answer the showrunner gave is that if it was Carl or Lori that showed up, he'd want to stay with them (i.e. dead). He was trying to 'find his family', right? She likened it to a 'third man' experience -- the people that he saw were there to give him specific things to keep fighting to live -- Shane to give him energy, Sasha to remind him of the big picture, etc. Visions of Carl or Lori would be counterproductive.
It's possible that this was a solution they 'backed' into based on actor availability, but I think it's pretty smart.
One minute into the episode, I didn't expect that ending. Maybe 45(?) minutes I started to get an inkling. So I guess
Spoiler:
Rick is at the TV show's equivalent of the Commonwealth?
Also,
Spoiler:
I take it that Judith will take over some of Carl's material with a relationship with Negan, etc. And maybe the show will give Magna more to do than the comics. She showed up in the comics as someone with leadership potential, but then kinda faded into being just another 'cast' member.
Having an established world, and audience knowledge of it could make for decent films. Films which can explore certain things better than a tv serial. They tend to need tighter plotting to tell their story in 2 hours rather than what, 16 or so for the serial.
the people that he saw were there to give him specific things to keep fighting to live -- Shane to give him energy, Sasha to remind him of the big picture, etc. Visions of Carl or Lori would be counterproductive.
the people that he saw were there to give him specific things to keep fighting to live -- Shane to give him energy, Sasha to remind him of the big picture, etc. Visions of Carl or Lori would be counterproductive.
Ok, thats a decent explanation
No it's not. That's the show's explanation for what casting gave them. It's not a big deal, can't do anything about casting but it wasn't "good".
Unless you have a well-placed inside source, there's no reason to think that other than out of pure cynicism.
The show is what it is, but Kang seems like a solid showrunner with some solid ideas. Her problem is that the show was at its absolute nadir when she took over, and is nearing the end of its life anyway.
I think the decision to make another time jump is a sound one. It's partially about Judith, but I think it also serves the show. It's going to be very different without Rick and eventually Maggie (and already was without Carl), so just doubling down on that and breaking from what's come before seems wise.
And like I said, I think the show now has room for a character like Magna, who never seemed to find her place in the comics.
Was it simplistic of me to think that "Rick passed out on horseback" was gonna make it all the way - at ambling speed - to (whatever) camp/stronghold and then "Surprise! Zombie Rick! Yay!" ?
Uggh, thought that last episode was a lot of filler.
I get they are trying to catch up on what X and Y and Z are doing but they need to move the Whisperer plot along faster.
Dunno. I feel it served to show divisions among the communities, without us having to plod through tedious plot constructs.
Instead, I find myself more intrigued by the aftermath. Everyone is more or less still chummy enough, but not friends. Why? How did things get to this stage? Was Rick really the lynchpin?
I get why some could consider it filler, and fair enough. But I feel it served a very specific purpose.
The slow burn of the Whisperers is likely to ignite in the next episode or two as we hit the mid-season break.
It's weird seeing the character shuffles they have to do now. I guess that kid whose name I can't remember and no one really cares about is now going to fill in for Carl storyline-wise. Michonne is now Rick except she's like an anti-Rick. Instead of keeping everyone together she's pushing them apart. Maggie has inadvertently become Michonne because Lauren Cohen has left the show. Was surprised to hear that on Talking Dead ( Michonne goes AWOL for a bit in the comic).
It's like a weird Elseworlds version of the comic. What would have happened if Rick died? Apparently everyone just splinters apart. Can't say I like that. Also, don't like how Michonne is apparently one of the driving reasons why.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: It's weird seeing the character shuffles they have to do now. I guess that kid whose name I can't remember and no one really cares about is now going to fill in for Carl storyline-wise. Michonne is now Rick except she's like an anti-Rick. Instead of keeping everyone together she's pushing them apart. Maggie has inadvertently become Michonne because Lauren Cohen has left the show. Was surprised to hear that on Talking Dead ( Michonne goes AWOL for a bit in the comic).
It's like a weird Elseworlds version of the comic. What would have happened if Rick died? Apparently everyone just splinters apart. Can't say I like that. Also, don't like how Michonne is apparently one of the driving reasons why.
Yeah, I'm with you on most of this. The only thing is that TV Rick was already kind of an Elseworlds version of comic Rick. "What would happen if Rick wasn't a steady, strong leader but instead a guy whose behavior veered wildly from Psycho Boy to Mr. Softee?"
I'm somewhat interested to see where they take Negan from here. I liked that this showrunner didn't make Rick and Negan's final All Out War confrontation exactly like the books. She correctly realized that it wouldn't make sense -- show Negan was kind of a lumbering dolt, and not a guy capable of seeing another way to handle things. Of course, the gun thing was...unfortunate. But anyway, with Sanctuary in a different state, Dwight apparently out of the picture, etc. I'm guessing there will be no redemption for show Negan, who was a less redeemable guy than comic Negan anyway. They can't be intending to have him lead Sanctuary again, but this time as a good guy, right?
Anyone know if the actor of the character who bit it wanted out? Because I don't really get that decision from a storytelling standpoint. Although I'm not sure where they were going with the character had he lived. He's right...he's not a leader. He's a great supporting character. It's like they tried to elevate him for a couple eps to make the death seem more dramatic.
Regarding the character who died...the actor was disgruntled that they effectively wasted the character by not making use of the material in the comics to make him into the badass character he was supposed to be. He never got any time to shine, like duelling with Negan etc. So he was actively pushing to kill his character off because he felt pointless.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: It's weird seeing the character shuffles they have to do now. I guess that kid whose name I can't remember and no one really cares about is now going to fill in for Carl storyline-wise. Michonne is now Rick except she's like an anti-Rick. Instead of keeping everyone together she's pushing them apart. Maggie has inadvertently become Michonne because Lauren Cohen has left the show. Was surprised to hear that on Talking Dead ( Michonne goes AWOL for a bit in the comic).
It's like a weird Elseworlds version of the comic. What would have happened if Rick died? Apparently everyone just splinters apart. Can't say I like that. Also, don't like how Michonne is apparently one of the driving reasons why.
Yeah, I'm with you on most of this. The only thing is that TV Rick was already kind of an Elseworlds version of comic Rick. "What would happen if Rick wasn't a steady, strong leader but instead a guy whose behavior veered wildly from Psycho Boy to Mr. Softee?"
I'm somewhat interested to see where they take Negan from here. I liked that this showrunner didn't make Rick and Negan's final All Out War confrontation exactly like the books. She correctly realized that it wouldn't make sense -- show Negan was kind of a lumbering dolt, and not a guy capable of seeing another way to handle things. Of course, the gun thing was...unfortunate. But anyway, with Sanctuary in a different state, Dwight apparently out of the picture, etc. I'm guessing there will be no redemption for show Negan, who was a less redeemable guy than comic Negan anyway. They can't be intending to have him lead Sanctuary again, but this time as a good guy, right?
Totally agree with you about Rick but it’s always been like the characters on the show read the comic and confuse Comic Rick with TV Rick.
I will miss the strange relationship that Rick will develop with Negan but because this Negan is also an Elseworlds version of Negan it’s probably for the best that they’re going this way anyway.
Seriously though I wonder if viewers will continue to stick with the show. In the comic Alexandria, Hilltop, Kingdom and Oceanside basically are a fledgling nation. Hope can be an important plot point especially when you put the characters through the ringer like TWD does. There’s just no hope or respite ever in the show and I think it can be exhausting for some of the viewers.
Well that was a really piss poor opener.
How long has this show been sliding now?
Im genuinely not sure why I bother anymore Morbid fascination maybe.....
I think the scenes with Lydia would have been a lot better with Carl but I guess they’re must have been some issues with Chandler Riggs. The absence of Maggie and Jesus is very noticeable as well. Like Terra’s in charge? Also, the reveal of The Whisperers was quite lame compared to the comic. They had territory and so were like a nation, a weird ass nation, but a nation nonetheless. So when they killed a bunch of people in the commuties and then said they want to be left alone it set up a difficult decision for everyone. Do we retaliate and have another war or just respect the now established border? Right now the whisperers are just some bogeymen. Another example of the show thinking it can out-write the comic but making it less compelling.
I don’t agree Carl would’ve been better, because he was too developed and set as a character. With Henry, we’ve no clear Plot Armour, and we can’t be sure how he’ll react overall.
Lydia’s backstory was well done. Differences visually in each iteration.
Whilst there is still room for improvement, what we’re getting is leagues better than recent seasons.
Can’t say too much without spoilers, so I’ll simply recommend that even lapsed viewers may fancy giving this season a whirl. It really has improved leaps and bounds since the days of Negan.
You may well find it not quite up to snuff still. It’s not like I’m telling anyone what standards to have. But as it continues to find its feet again, you may have enough intrigue to persevere.
For the last episode it’s like the show simply forgot that they were supposed to develope Lydia and New Carl into likeable characters which took a lot of drama out of the confrontation. Like for people who haven’t read the comic did any of you really care about that supposed dilemma of giving up Lydia?
Also, what’s up with leaving the baby to die thing by the Whisperers? Like I know they live like animals but animals usually protect their babies. That made no sense. Babies must have a 100% fatality rate in their group.
Likely a way to build in plot strands for The Whisperers.
Alpha has been telling them ‘got to be strong’ blah blah for a while, and through force of personality has seen it through.
Now? Now they’re faced with a solid, safe community. Well protected, well fed, well armed, well trained. And they actually give a monkey’s about the young etc.
Tension! Skill! Plot! Character development! Badassery! Fisticuffs! Actual Doing A Think!
Seriously one of the best episodes in a long, long, time.
I feel like having lost its main two leads, the show is actually better off. With Rick and Carl out the picture, other characters, including newer ones, are getting more of the screen time and development. And that’s only to the show’s benefit.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: For the last episode it’s like the show simply forgot that they were supposed to develope Lydia and New Carl into likeable characters which took a lot of drama out of the confrontation. Like for people who haven’t read the comic did any of you really care about that supposed dilemma of giving up Lydia?
Also, what’s up with leaving the baby to die thing by the Whisperers? Like I know they live like animals but animals usually protect their babies. That made no sense. Babies must have a 100% fatality rate in their group.
The baby thing might be the replacement for their other shocking "we're all just animals" attitude from the comics. While I understand why they may not have wanted to go there, it does build a stronger case for why they have to get Lydia the feth out of there.
And I think you hit it on the head...I don't trust or care enough about Henry to make this Romeo and Juliet story work. He just comes off as some dumb kid being led around by his you know what. If Carl was the one to vouch for Lydia, it'd be different.
The latest issue of the comic has a shot of Rick and Carl meeting up where they stand together and give each other a look. That isn't something which the show could replicate (ah, I mean because Carl's dead, not for all the other reasons).
Now that both Rick and Carl are out of the show, along with other major characters, there's just less weight to their replacements. I liked Michonne for Michonne's arc in the comics, now she'll have to do her thing and pick up Rick's. ...Which then becomes further complicated if they then try and pull in scenes where the two are supposed to be in conflict, by giving the drama to other characters (who were either non-existent, or doing their own thing),
You can see that they know how much they screwed up with Carl's death in that they replaced him at all. Similar to how characters like Jesus have also had to step in. But as I said, that means either potential mis-characterising someone or creating a new character for the role who just cannot fill the void of someone we've been following for years now.
Personally I'd have been fine if they just killed off Carl with the character's death. If they just had to get rid of the character then dump all of his scenes as well and find new material. The same with Michonne turning into a git all of a sudden and alienating the other settlements, for the sake of tying up plot contrivances and dealing with the character's disappearance in the comics ("oops, we already introduced the content from that arc in the comics seasons ago. What're we supposed to do with her now?").
Spoiler:
It'll be a wonder how they deal with the current arc in the comics with Michonne. They'll have to find another Rick Grimes substitute (or just bring the actor back). Though if the series makes it that far we'll need a Dwight substitute as well. One with the characterisation and weight to fill that role ...for you know, that one moment with Rick and The Governor. Though I'm sure they'll find someone to fit that role (tsk, if only they hadn't killed off all those good Saviours characters in previous episode for no reason)).
Or they're trying to free themselves from the comics somewhat.
I honestly don't know, as I'm not one to normally mix my media, preferring to see all of one, then consumer the next. I'm the same when eating my dinner.
I was pretty burnt on the show. We barely watched last season and the beginning of this season. The introduction of the Whisperers and with Rick and Maggie gone the wife and I gave it another go as if it was basically a new show and so far we're enjoying it since the midseason finale and break. We'll see if it stays decent.
Last night's episode suggests it's still gathering steam.
Kind of an aside to the main stuff, but fills in quite a lot of stuff. As ever it's well shot, well constructed, but also gives a lot of character development.
I feel like in seasons past, that tale would've been spun out over perhaps two or three episodes. But not here. Nicely done within the hour. Lovely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Was also really quite harrowing in the last quarter. For a show known for it's horror, that was quite something!
No spoilers of course, but as it's relatively stand-alone in the season, easy to give it a watch in isolation.
I’ve been waiting for the border wall to go up for a while. For a while it looked like they might skip that scene. Glad to see who survived it:
Spoiler:
Rosita. I don’t think the show can afford to lose her right now as well
and glad to see Henry not survive. He’s just not filling the shoes of Carl and I just don’t think that guy is a good actor at all. Also it sets up the next main plot point. Some people will actually want peace but no way in hell Carol is ever going to go for that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her and the King come down on the opposite sides of that debate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Watching Talking Dead now. I thought that might have Terra but it was hard to tell. I must admit I never really liked her so don’t really care and hope they find a way to get Maggie back but I know she’s off on another show right now. I think the one that I liked the most was actually Enid. Certainly a lot more than Henry which was supposed to be the big reveal.
I feel Alpha has somewhat shot her bolt, showing Daryl her Little Valley Of Zombies.
I mean, sure, she might have others, but that still revealing a huge part of your defence/offence strategy to your enemy. Pretty sure I’d want to keep such a treat up my sleeved. But then, I’m not a total mentalist. I mean, dressing in the skins is skanky, but very smart. Kicking off at people crossing into territory you’ve not previously marked? Seems a bit hatstand to me.
Am I the only one thinking about how funny it would be to fly over that valley and lay down a steady stream of napalm and explosives? Furthermore, I'd love to let them know I was going to do it about 5 minutes beforehand. Just long enough so that the people walking with the Dead couldn't get out without alerting the zombies they were there.
cuda1179 wrote: Am I the only one thinking about how funny it would be to fly over that valley and lay down a steady stream of napalm and explosives? Furthermore, I'd love to let them know I was going to do it about 5 minutes beforehand. Just long enough so that the people walking with the Dead couldn't get out without alerting the zombies they were there.
They tried the whole using thermobaric weapons on the zombie hordes thing already. It just left a city burning and a load of charred zombies melted into the tarmac clawing at survivors as they walked past.
Yes, we'll have to see how that whole mega herd thing pans out. Hopefully the show deals with it well. Probably not. The comics were super lacklustre.
Spoiler:
The herd is sent to Alexandria. There's a back and forth between the various survivor communities on who will help for a few issues as the Alexandrians duke it out. Then they get on their horses and steer the herd into the sea.
Every time a mega herd shows up in the comics its so boring. The herd gets turned away and its a problem for another day. They never do long term damage (bar the odd named character -at best - dying). Hell, in the past few mega herds in the comics I'm blanking on more than one named character dying.
The walking dead trailers for the first film and season 10;
And comic spoiler - Mean it. Really a spoiler. If you are not upto date on the comic then don't read this;
Spoiler:
Well, its over then! I certainly did not see that coming. I thought after Ricks demise we would still get a few more years of comics but nope. Really liked how it all ends, felt a little rushed but still good.
The walking dead trailers for the first film and season 10;
And comic spoiler - Mean it. Really a spoiler. If you are not upto date on the comic then don't read this;
Spoiler:
Well, its over then! I certainly did not see that coming. I thought after Ricks demise we would still get a few more years of comics but nope. Really liked how it all ends, felt a little rushed but still good.
Yes! Biggest comic shocker of all time!
Spoiler:
I quite enjoyed it though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For some reason I’ve been hearing that the movies were going to be TV movies but it looks like it’s a theatrical release after all!
Did Michonne say the Whsiperers had a tactical nuke?! I had to rewind that scene to double check WTF
Leaving aside that nonsense, it was a bit ho hum for me. Daryl n Carol are always watchable together so nice to see them get some air time but nothing really happened apart from that to drive anything forward.
As I said months ago not sure how they are going to make the whisperers into any sort of major threat - well apart from the spoiler above
Kicks off with a 7 year flashback, and some ‘meanwhile, in the present’, focussing on The Whisperers.
And what we’re seeing is pretty interesting, and adds some decent perspective on Alpha, really letting Samantha Morton show her acting chops. Bit of perspective on Beta as well.
May even be seeing a hint of cracks with Whisperer ranks.
Really good to see character development of the baddies for once. Don’t think we’ve had that since Terminus, and even that was pretty fleeting.
Some good gory bits as well, and some fairly shocking scenes, even 10 years in.
Definitely picking up and running with the spark of improvement we saw within Season 9.
Got to around half way through S10E3 last night, before I had to go to bed (had been to a gig, it was coming up midnight, and alarm goes off 5:30)
Go to say, Alpha is the main power behind the show's increasing quality. Not only is Samantha Morton a might good actress (and she is!), but Alpha is unpredictable in way Negan and The Governor just weren't.
She calls the meeting at the fence, shows off her knowledge etc - and just claims land. Even directly forgiving Carol for trying to shoot her there and then.
That's very, very welcome. They know what she's capable of (Horde O'Dead) - but not what might trigger her. That adds a serious chill factor to her behaviour.
I mean....is she actually, honestly trustworthy? Will she respect the border? Or is it all just a mind game for her own amusement?
Shall start the episode over, as tired Grotsnik isn't the most attentive, and I don't want to be head scratching at the second half.
Was an ok episode but not as good as the last one.
Im confused that during Negans war they had guns, grenades, trucks, cars up the wazzoo but a few years later are back to using horses, spears and bows?
Wasnt eugene able to make ammo and weapons due to his background? And the whisperes seem pretty well armed with hand guns etc?
Kanluwen wrote: I'd assume the idea is that the settlements save guns for the real "oh gak" threats.
Saviours also lost all theirs thanks to Eugenius exploding dakka trick, so that's a fair number gone.
And with six years passing last Season, it could be they simply struggle to maintain the workybits? I dunno. I'm no gun smith.
They were also living in relative peacetime, with no Big Bad for said six years. Could simply be it was easier to adopt less advanced weapons, than go to the bother of maintaining dakkadakka when there were more important things to invest manpower in?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Not related to the current seasons. But those peeps that turned up at Hilltop, traded plans for records. Then just sort of, stopped being a thing.
Huh?
Is this something from the comics?
My guess is they're from the
Spoiler:
Commonwealth,
which represent the next group of antagonists after the Whisperer Arc concludes.
Also I'm guessing that Rick Grimes was...
Spoiler:
kidnapped by The Commonwealth, or an early precursor to the Commonwealth. He'll be involved in the origins and founding of the Commonwealth and might even be merged into the role of The Governor or the head of Security Mercer.
No, I think they were just a one time thing to show how they got plans to build a windmill and stuff. In the comic Eugene just knows that kind of stuff. In the TV Show he was being evil at the time.
Overall, a most satisfying opening half. We've seen The Whisperers developed nicely, and our friends and chums being pushed somewhat.
Daryl and Carol need some venting though. Great actors and great characters, but with Rick and Carrllrlrrlrlr gone, they've been doing quite a bit of the heavy lifting. But hey, given they're the last survivors of the original group, perhaps that's to be expected?
On the upside, the other characters are being properly developed, and at a rate of knots.
A solid first half to the season. Returned to quite a dark space in some scenes which is never a bad thing imo.
Still meandered aimlessly in places though but much more watchable than some of the previous stuff.
betray Alpha. But I’m not sure if it’s gonna happen. This is an elseworlds Negan who spent a lot more time in prison and doesn’t have Rick around to emulate. However they went pretty deep into the Eugene swerve until they brought him back in line so I still expect something. However if he was ever gonna do something the time was a few days ago....
Pretty decent stuff, and TWD’s return to form continues. Very, very interested to see the next episode, and rueing that the final episode is necessarily delayed
For those that gave up on it, do consider checking this season out.
Ya, its kinda crazy they got every episode done except the last one! At least they got a lot of the main plot points done. So glad Maggie is back! ....next episode.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And we also saw the debut of The Commonwealth. I was wondering if that’s who was going to be the community the kidnapped Rick and has appeared in Fear. It also seems to be the setting of World Beyond. However seems to be different. It would have been cool if it was. Tie everything up together nicely.
First one was pretty ace. Nice to catch up with Maggie, and introduces new antagonists - though whether Maggie’s group earned their ire is kinda unknown.
Second one? Honestly, I love Carol and Daryl. They’re the only original cast members left, and their journeys have been consistently good, especially Carol. But this one just left me a bit cold. It may improve with a second watch.
Third one? Superb. Two previously naive characters continue their development as Credible Survivors.
Indeed, one thing the show has done is frame our antagonists as Credible Surviviors. Sure sometimes their plans are forged in Pure Narrativium, but none really commit “oh come on you’re dead now surely” faux pas.
Fourth episode airs in the U.K. in around 4 hours. I’ve avoided summaries and spoilers so no real idea what it’s about.
I suspect he will come back to rescue her. It might do nothing to put Maggie off, but it may be enough to get sufficient others on side to stop her this time.
Though I suspect the folk that nicked off will come back to affect the rescue, leaving Negan in potentially hotter water.
An interesting one, and quite differently paced from the first two. It’s not exactly filler, but I feel we’ll need to see the rest of the season to better appreciate it.
It certainly wasn’t boring, just not quite what I expected after the previous cliff hanger.
On my second watch. I do appreciate that we don’t really know the motivation of the folks hunting Maggie’s group. Are they really the bad guys, or did Maggie’s group perhaps get a bit Saviours, and might actually deserve their wrath?
I wonder if Rick and Michonne will make some late season appearances to say goodbye. The Commonwealth don’t have the same weight with Yumiko taking Michonne’s storyline.
First mid-season finale was fairly satisfying. Meridian scenes were great, but Alexandria felt very much same old same old.
Also watching The World Beyond. It definitely has a different feel, so that’s something. We also just got confirmation that whatever is animating the dead is also slowing their decomposition.
A relatively throwaway line, but a welcome one all the same, as it craftily explains why, many many years after the fall, we still see a ridiculous number of Zombies, when a regular corpse exposed to the elements would’ve long since rotted away entirely.
No, I’m preserving too. The last 2 episodes have been interesting actually. I’m just glad this show is going into the end game. We are definitely at the point where the universe has no point anymore. I’m on the other shows one of the characters was listening to a podcast or something like that. She listened to it on fast forward because she has so many to listen to apparently. Like if you have the tech, electricity and time to do something like that I think we’re past the desperate survival situation that would cause everyone to act all evil.
That’s why the introduction of the commonwealth’s time has come. They’ll begin to deal with more “normal “ political and societal issues.
Anyway, it would be nice if Rick and/or Michonne could make a final appearance but it would be hard to work them in storyline wise. It’s a shame because Yukmiko filling in for Michonne really doesn’t have the same emotional impact. Not sure who’s going to fill in for Rick’s story beats. Carol would make the most sense right now but they’ve already announced she’s got her own show. I think that just shows that AMC is really determined to milk this thing even at the sake of having a better story.
I guess Judith will be filling in for Carl but she’s a bit too young for the good she’s supposed to be filling there.
I really enjoyed the first episode of this bit of the season, but found the second to plod along a bit, and it feels very rushed with all the time jumps.
I stopped watching World Beyond but I guess I am missing some stuff that relates to this bit of the main show?
I'm still sticking with it though, maybe because it's a sunk investment, but I will see it through to the (bitter) end....
World Beyond and it’s wider place remains to be seen.
It does latterly offer some interesting tidbits.
Spoiler:
However, it does reveal that something about the infection slows the rate of decay, neatly explaining why years into it, there are [i]still[i] Zombies, despite it being fairly clear relatively few folk survived terribly long.
It also shows with a post-credit sequence that whatever the cause is, it seems to stem from a French laboratory
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of the time jumps, I’m kind of enjoying them.
Before, the show just sort of plodded along from one crisis to the next. The first original one (when we met Magna’s group) was much needed, as it gave them some space to play with, and mysteries/questions for us as the audience.
Season 11 I think they’re being bold. Initial big one, then suddenly dialled back. I find it quite tantalising. And given it’s the final season, I don’t think it’s going to be used to the point of boredom. Rather, its skipping over some potentially dull storytelling, whilst still dangling juicy tidbits to us.
They hinted that they would be introducing the running zombies seen at the end of World Beyond into the normal WD universe, but that leaves very little room left (6 episodes, right?). I bet it's going appear more in the new spin-off or the Rick Grimes movies.
I'm kind-of wondering if the Commonwealth is a branch of the CRM, competing with it, or even if they are aware of each other. I somehow doubt the CRM doesn't at least know about the Commonwealth, as they hooked up with communities across the country. Virginia is a lot closer to New York than Omaha, Seatle, or Texas, all places the CRM has a presence.
I was under the impression the Commonwealth and the CRM were one and the same?
I really don't think so. I'll be really surprised if they are because that would be really going against the source material (though that would hardly be the first time) . I don't think they've mentioned it directly in the show yet but The Commonwealth has a population of like 50,000 people.
Just watched the last episode. I think it was the best episode in a long time. I think the reason the whole TWD universe has become so stale is it’s fallen into this rut of simply introducing cartoonish supervillain after cartoonish supervillain that must be defeated. That’s become very boring. Let’s have some people with some nuanced positions. Hornby is the best new character.
Well actually I don’t find anything he says evil or crazy but they always play the scary, evil villain music whenever he’s talking. I wish they wouldn’t do that. I was enjoying the subtlety before that.
I like how it’s still not massively clear if The Commonwealth itself is rotten, or just elements within it.
We now know Lance is absolutely a wrong’un, and of course has his minions/supporters. But is Pamela in on it, or even aware of it?
Nice building of suspense overall.
I think they've definitely given Pamela plausible deniability. It's a rouge bureaucrat who unleased a rogue spook. It moved Lance another notch over into the evil column which I didn't really like. I wish they played him more Lord Varys. He's not a bad guy but someone has to serve the realm kind of thing.
Man this third is really knocking it out of the park.
Very little, if any, time wasted, without leaving narrative gaps or blanks.
Exactly how awful The Commonwealth is remains somewhat shrouded. We have clear and identifiable villains, but also some who are quite clearly at best uncomfortable with the shadier side.
We could simply be dealing with sadly pretty standard government corruption and dodginess.
Oh Mama I swear that despite my unashamedly low standards, this is top drawer stuff.
I’m genuinely loving this. It’s well paced, densely plotted without being overwhelming. It has a fair number of narrative irons in the fire, and none feel like they’re being left to cool in favour of others.
I’m really hoping this show is going to go out on a high.
It’s definitely miles better now than it’s been in ages. I look forward to the final 8 episodes, whenever they’re released. Will defo need to binge this partial season again beforehand though, as there’s some dense, but not overcrowded, plotting going on.
My understanding is that the next 8 episodes won't be the last, because the final season is actually 2 seasons? So after the next 8 episodes we'll be at the half way point?
That may not be the case but sure I'd read that the final season is effectively in 4 parts.
Either way, I agree, it's the best TWD has been in a very long time.
Edit: I googled after posting, turns out I'm wrong and it really is it after the next 8.
I’m impressed they’ve managed to keep Pamela Milton somewhat ambiguous.
Is she just incompetent and blind to what’s going on? Is she tolerating it, because she’s convinced herself the ends justify the means? We don’t really yet know how deep she’s in.
I wish they had kept Lance more ambiguous. I thought he made some good points in the shadowy apartment with Eugene but since he's gone cartoonish supervillian. That being said you can apparently make a face turn after anything in this show. I think we're supposed to consider Negan a good guy now.
Same reason you felt the need to leave a smart ass response.
I enjoyed it up till season 10 and haven’t caught 11 but it feels like it’s been the final season for forever.
I legitimately was surprised.
Sorry if my question offended you.
usernamesareannoying wrote: Same reason you felt the need to leave a smart ass response.
I enjoyed it up till season 10 and haven’t caught 11 but it feels like it’s been the final season for forever.
I legitimately was surprised.
Sorry if my question offended you.
The reason S11 might feel overlong is because Covid caused a delay (hence S10 got a few episodes tagged on to the end) and they've deliberately scheduled S11 in two halves. There was always a mid season break, but the timing is all to cock from usual (premier in Oct, break over new year, finish Q1 following year.)
So your internal metronome has several reasons to be off.
And it’s back, for the final third of the 11th and final season.
What a ride it’s been. A literal rollecoaster of highs and lows.
For the latest episode?
Spoiler:
I still can’t decide if Pamela is in on the nefarious side. She’s either genuinely clueless, or a super shrewd operator with a keen mind for Plausible Deniability.
It was a pretty solid opener, though it didn’t resolve the cliff hanger, of Lance flipping a coin, seemingly to decide the fate of Oceanside. But perhaps that will come.
Good action, nice to have car chases back too. And as ever, some new and interesting gore.
And three new shows were formally (re-)announced (that we all most likely knew of already). So far only Dead City sounds interesting (Negan + Maggie + NYC + Zombies Walkers = fun? )
I am about halfway through season 11… the show continues to be mediocre in my opinion but I feel invested in several of the characters and I keep hoping it will get better. Fear the Walking Dead rewarded me for my patience even if it later let me down again. I just wish the Walking Dead shows were better. There is so much potential in the setting and there are some great characters in the various shows.
When Rick “left” I thought that would be the end of it for me but fair play, the showrunners kept me coming back (I can not seem to turn down more Morgan and Daryl at the very least)… and got me watching the spin-offs. I still need to see the show about the USS Pennsylvania (although I am pretty pessimistic about how good it will be) and more of Tales of the Walking Dead (I only saw episode 1 but Terry Crews was awesome).
As for the newly announced spin-offs…
Spoiler:
I am not sure how I feel about more Negan and Maggie, their weird relationship has not been much fun for me as it seems so outrageous. Exploring Negan's backstory was fun but his “redemption arc” has been pretty inconsistent. Maybe that is realistic but I am not sure it makes for good storytelling. The show seems so arbitrary, so inconsistent in the decision making, on who people kill and who they spare. But being from Upstate New York myself, yes I am keen to see NYC of the Walking Dead.
And as much as I love Daryl, as much as I want to see Europe of the Walking Dead (given I have lived in Europe the last couple of decades), I am afraid we are going to end up in France… exploring more of the original outbreak as well as the new development of “runners” instead of “walkers”. A development I am not keen on at all.
Most of all I really, really wish Walking Dead would hire (and listen to) better military and police technical advisors.
Spoiler:
The raid on the military base in the beginning season 11 made no sense at all. Why not methodically just kill all of the zombies one at a time with bows/slings then get all the weapons, ammo and food there… instead of a half assed smash and grab? Ugh. Especially with starvation around the corner.
And the mercenaries? Looked and acted more like the biker gangs we have seen previously… not professionally trained veteran combat troops. And the leader had to be a powertripping, religious madman? Really? Where is the depth in that? Very disappointing. It would have been interesting to see the group actually using military procedures and protocols, training, doing rehearsals, operation orders, discussing sop's, setting up sector stakes on fighting positions, moving in formations etc. Instead we got masked horrors of the dark, then a sniper in a ghillie suit, then back to more masked monsters from The Purge with night time slasher tactics, then suddenly black clad bikers with basic room clearing tactics. It felt like the writers were inspired by the wrong parts of Apocalypse Now.
Still better than the Resident Evil tv series though I suppose.
The Reapers (thanks for reminding me of the name of the Purge-like group that I forgot the name of) came across more like just another biker gang than the US Army trained combat veterans they were supposed to be. The ghillie wearing “sniper” and the Reaper leader in particular came across more as a militia wannabe soldiers than a trained combat veterans. Even Negan's Saviors came across more real world military than the Reapers. Not that the Saviors were very soldierly.
There have been soldiers, sailors and cops in the show… Fear of the Walking Dead had uniformed troops at the start (remember the one US soldier who gets tortured by one of the protagonists?), Walking Dead had Abe and the soldiers the Governor ambushed, World Beyond had several military characters, including scenes of uniformed troops at the outbreak. Generally they have been portrayed as incompetent and unprofessional (the protagonist who tortured the US Soldier I mentioned earlier is an exception on the competence to a certain degree, his physical skills seem fine but he has severe mental health issues that degrade his overall competence) and almost all of them as just not very soldier like. Same for the Cops in Atlanta. Uniformed bullies looking out for themselves… which may be how a lot of non-Cops see the Police but from my experience not very authentic to real Cops. Rick in the beginning came across to me as an actual Cop trying to adjust to a new paradigm even if his behavior was not technically very cop-like most of the time. It is part of what originally drew me into the show. But the more I watched the more it looked like Rick was a stereotype of a “good cop” and Shane a stereotype of a “bad cop” from the perspective of people who have never made an arrest themselves.
I have been a soldier and a cop. There are certain things, certain habits and mannerisms that form part of the culture surrounding those fields. Any veteran on this board should know what I am talking about. Is is not just fingers off the trigger and shouting clear after entering room. Captain Dale Dye and his folks at Warriors Inc. have a way of bringing those things that bring authenticity to the screen when they are listened to… which is not often enough.
If a show can not speak with authenticity to give a voice for soldiers and cops then I would rather they just stick with the voices they can do justice to. So sure focus on civilians surviving the zombie apocalypse and keep the military off screen… or just hire and listen to some of the numerous veterans looking for work right now.
They have milked this universe to death. All the spinoffs they've announced are offensive. They're basically just keeping the show going and adding subtitles. I'm going to finish the main series, which I think is 8 episodes, and never watch anything TWD ever again. I'm merely watching as a completionist.
I am surprised there is not more talk about the big reveal at the end of Walking Dead: World Beyond…
Spoiler:
… regarding the origin of the outbreak being France and not it looks like it has mutated there now to create “runners” with short term memories. That seems like a real paradigm shift to the IP. Especially with news that Daryl will be going to Europe in a spin-off. I am not a big fan of “runners” generally but I know others feel otherwise from the polls I have previously posted..
I do not think the universe is milked to death largely because there are plenty of things I would have liked to see explored that were ignored so far.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I wouldn’t know because I’m British and we’re seemingly not allowed it :(
It is frustrating that these are not more readily available overseas from the States given the global nature of the Internet.
I caught episode 1 on YouTube, the one with Terry Crews. It was pretty good… but really only because of him. There were some very annoying plotholes but his charm helped me ignore them. I love that guy.
EDIT: I am surprised to find he second half of season 11 much more interesting than the first half. The Commonwealth plot should not be that engaging as it seems like going over well worn old ground but for some reason it has captured my attention and I am starting to care what happens next there.
Still can’t quite decide just how deep Pamela is, and just how rogue Lance actually went. To me that is good writing, as with Lance now locked up and his crimes exposed, I still can’t tell if Pamela genuinely didn’t know, or is stick to plausible deniability. And as a result, I can’t tell if there is any truth to Lance’s warnings to Our Heroes.
I mean, Pamela is definitely corrupt, no doubt there. But is she beyond Common or Garden Corrupt and actually malignant evil corrupt?
Greatly enjoyed watch Lance get ate off a Zombie. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy. But I fear for the Zombie as greasy, rotten food isn’t good for you,
Just got around to watching it and have to say the death was quite shocking actually.
Spoiler:
clearly going in a much different direction than the comic. Who’s going to be the final big bad now? Lance? Pamela? I like the way in the comic Pamela was willing to lock up her own son for the sake of society. It was what finally showed that civilization is back. I don’t know how they’re going to pull that off now.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Just got around to watching it and have to say the death was quite shocking actually.
Spoiler:
clearly going in a much different direction than the comic. Who’s going to be the final big bad now? Lance? Pamela? I like the way in the comic Pamela was willing to lock up her own son for the sake of society. It was what finally showed that civilization is back. I don’t know how they’re going to pull that off now.
I have not read the comic but it does sound like I would prefer how the comic handled that.
Spoiler:
I think there was a clue that Pamela is just as bad as Lance in that she demanded Mercer to protect her and he said his job was not to protect her but instead to protect the Commonwealth. Pamela accuses Lance of putting himself before the Commonwealth several times but she seems to be a hypocrite and does it too.
I wish the show had further explored the idea that Maggie is in her own way as much of an autocrat as Pamela is… but that she puts her people before herself.
I for one still can’t get a proper read on Pamela Milton.
Is she evil? Or is this her self delusion married to understandable grief? Certain bits feed into her having just turned a blind eye. Others that she truly didn’t know just how far Lance had gone. I mean, either way she’s still a villain.
Walkers able to open doors and climb? We’ve not really seen that since the second ever episode, where we saw rudimentary tools being used. Also a nice rug pull as I was sure we were dealing with a Whisperer remnant.
I genuinely feared for protagonist survival for the first time in a while.
It’s not often a show might peak in its intended finale season, but The Walking Dead might just be doing that very thing.
Well looking forward to next Monday!
Also…the Commonwealth need to watch it. Carol is still out there. And you don’t want Carol out and about if you’re going to hurt her friends. She can and will eff you right up!
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Just got around to watching it and have to say the death was quite shocking actually.
Spoiler:
clearly going in a much different direction than the comic. Who’s going to be the final big bad now? Lance? Pamela? I like the way in the comic Pamela was willing to lock up her own son for the sake of society. It was what finally showed that civilization is back. I don’t know how they’re going to pull that off now.
I have not read the comic but it does sound like I would prefer how the comic handled that.
Spoiler:
I think there was a clue that Pamela is just as bad as Lance in that she demanded Mercer to protect her and he said his job was not to protect her but instead to protect the Commonwealth. Pamela accuses Lance of putting himself before the Commonwealth several times but she seems to be a hypocrite and does it too.
I wish the show had further explored the idea that Maggie is in her own way as much of an autocrat as Pamela is… but that she puts her people before herself.
I think I know what's happening. In the comic Lance and Pamela are not evil or crazy. More importantly, The Commonwealth is not evil or crazy either. Clearly, societal norms were just slowly coming back. And so in the comics the Final Boss is the idea that all means are justified in a crisis is no longer how people want to live.
However, AMC got like 5 new Zombie shows coming out! So there's is no need to wrap things up in a satisfyingly manner. Quite the opposite. They probably need the Commonwealth to fully explode because they need a whole bunch more conflict to launch all these new series. The need ALL APOCALYPTIC ACTION ALL THE TIME FOREVER! So I can already see I will not like these last few episodes of this long running series because what they are really going for is a non-ending.
For me, it's just shows the weakness of the show. It's become so repetitive. In the comic Pamela call herself "The Governor" which The Alexandiarans mention has traumatic connotations for them. But Pamela assures them she's a different kind of Governor - you'll see. And sure enough she is. This show didn't duplicate that scene because...Pamela is pretty much the same character as The Governor. She now has a dead child she going to keep "alive" in a secret room as she slowly goes insane. They literally already did that storyline with Governor I.
I don’t agree we’re heading to a non-conclusion ending.
What I think we’re going to see is The Commonwealth get sorted out, and remain as the first bastion of civilisation.
But at the same time, those who have lost too much, or like Daryl embraced the wandering inherent to this apocalypse keep pushing outwards. Maybe finding other communities, to let them know of The Commonwealth. Or simply not be able to settle back into civilian life.
The Commonwealth stabilising doesn’t Fix The World. The Commonwealth surviving doesn’t Fix The World.
Yes it’s a staggering size by apocalypse standards - but the rest of the world is still largely buggered. People to find, places to see, things to explore.
In terms of spin-offs?
Fear The Walking Dead isn’t, so far as I remember, taking place in the same time as The Walking Dead, following the significant time jump between Rick going missing and Magna’s group arriving (five years, I think?), so that’s no affected by however TWD wraps itself up.
World Beyond is already concluded. Maybe I’ll go binge watch that, as episodically it never really gripped me.
Tales Of is an anthology of one shots. Again, doesn’t need to rely on TWD’s main story, as it can be backfilling, gap filling, what iffing etc
Daryl’s spin off is reportedly set in Europe. How the heck he gets there I dunno, but again the fate of the Commonwealth isn’t really a factor.
Dead City? Set in Manhattan. Commonwealth is in Ohio. Not as far away as Europe like, but also still far enough away The Commonwealth’s fate just….doesn’t matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for The Governor? I’m pretty sure the only characters still with us from that period would be Daryl and Carol.
Daryl isn’t one to be phased by it, and I think Carol got herself banished for those bad murders before the conflict? Or did she. Actually I don’t think she did? No she was there. But then…Carol is gonna Carol. Play the innocent harmless home maker until it’s time for some well deserved Murder Death Kill.
But those are the only two in the Commonwealth who were there for The Governor, as I don’t think Maggie has set foot inside?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Fear The Walking Dead isn’t, so far as I remember, taking place in the same time as The Walking Dead, following the significant time jump between Rick going missing and Magna’s group arriving (five years, I think?), so that’s no affected by however TWD wraps itself up.
There's a wiki for that with a Television Universe Timeline covering The Walking Dead, Fear the Walking Dead and The Walking Dead: World Beyond.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Fear The Walking Dead isn’t, so far as I remember, taking place in the same time as The Walking Dead, following the significant time jump between Rick going missing and Magna’s group arriving (five years, I think?), so that’s no affected by however TWD wraps itself up.
There's a wiki for that with a Television Universe Timeline covering The Walking Dead, Fear the Walking Dead and The Walking Dead: World Beyond.
Thanks for the link to that timeline. I clearly misunderstood the timeline of the various shows and now that has been reconciled for me. Cheers! 👍
And yes, it does feel like Pamela is Governor 2.0. Disappointing. Was her father the serving President during the Outbreak or before?
Spoiler:
So, is “the variant” in the Renn Faire Castle the same as the “runners” in France or something else new? Also, it amazes me that our heroes still manage to find a “new defensible location” in their region after several years of actively scavenging the area.
Most recent episode for Walking Dead felt disappointing to me. Definitely feels like the show is echoing other previous plotlines. So much so I have to wonder if it is on purpose.
I also managed to finally see Dead in the Water (the Fear the Walking Dead backstory prequel episode about the USS Pennsylvania. It was disappointing even with going in with low expectations. I suppose it could have been worse. Still, I really would like to see the showrunners use at least as much professional military technical advice as the Last Ship had in its early seasons. And that is not an incredibly high bar to reach.
Spoiler:
Lance's death was cliche and anti-climatic. I was really expecting something a bit more… remarkable.
The Commonwealth military do not act at all like trained professional soldiers or police officers. Despite having a West Point trained officer in charge of training. An officer who happens to be the son of a general. And given they train without armor against walkers armed only with a knife in their basic, why do so many panic while in the field with full armor and firearms?
What is the relationship between the Commonwealth and the Civic Republic? I can not see how these two settlements are not aware of each other. And what is with the all white armor for the Commonwealth and all black armor for the Civic Republic?
Why does Pamela's guards wear US Army Dress Uniform Infantry MOS insignia (the blue cords over the shoulder) on their strange black uniforms? Black uniforms… hmm. Coincidence? Probably. But those
While Dead in the Water was disappointing, it left open the door for a better attempt to explain what happened to the rest of the various fleets at sea as well as soldiers in nuclear lunch bunkers. Now, I was not a sailor so I do not know much about he Navy or life aboard a ship/submarine. However, there were things in The Last Ship which “rang true” to me because they mirrored some things I remember from my time in the US Army. And while I was never in a missile silo, I would think from what I have seen as an infantryman that there would be comms, weapons, food and water in abundance in each silo.
It really made no sense to me that the USS Pennsylvania had no comms and yet their was still mobile phone service on shore. Who would give an order to nuke Chicago? Why? It makes no sense to me at all. And think about the time it would take for them to be moved to their location from where they were originally on a NATO station patrol. Are officers on submarines routinely armed with sidearms? If so, some or all of them? Why was more effort not made to secure the armsroom they must surely have. I get that Zombies are terrifying but surely folks specifically selected for mental stability under extreme stress and difficult conditions as well as trained for conflict would react a bit better than what we saw. And aren't sailors taught to repel boarders. Plenty of chokepoints on a sub to channel walkers and kill them one at a time. The more I think about Dead in the Water the more plotholes pop up. Ugh.
Latest episode is…odd. On the surface it feels a bit anaemic. But.
The ending of it suggests this was a necessary bridging episode, to get us from shenanigans in the Commonwealth, to, well, shenanigans where we wound up. Thinking about the preceding episodes, I don’t think what happened here could really have been interspersed among the other ongoing plots. But whether that’s damning with faint praise I’m not sure. Certainly it’s been a long time since we had such an episode.
There is still stuff to enjoy, from the washed out palette to channel doom and gloom in certain scenes, to some (perhaps not entirely necessary) character moments.
I think it’s best to hold off judgement until we see how the rest of those section fully shakes out.
The ending of it suggests this was a necessary bridging episode, to get us from shenanigans in the Commonwealth, to, well, shenanigans where we wound up. Thinking about the preceding episodes, I don’t think what happened here could really have been interspersed among the other ongoing plots. But whether that’s damning with faint praise I’m not sure. Certainly it’s been a long time since we had such an episode.
There is still stuff to enjoy, from the washed out palette to channel doom and gloom in certain scenes, to some (perhaps not entirely necessary) character moments.
I think it’s best to hold off judgement until we see how the rest of those section fully shakes out.
I saw your post before I caught the episode… but I have seen it now and I agree with your observations. It felt… odd… to have the location reveal be what it is.
Spoiler:
I find it surprising that Mercer either knew about this and was ok with it or that he could be “The General” and not know about it. I get that not all of the Commonwealth military is loyal to him but as a trained officer who is the son of a General he should understand leadership requirements of his position. If he was just a good combatant, say a famous athlete before the Fall, who is now the figurehead military commander and recruitment posterboy for the Commonwealth, then I could understand how is acting/being treated. Especially with folks like the now dead CIA operative at the disposal of Lance and Pamela. All this with Mercer may seem trivial to some but it really damages my suspension of disbelief.
Excellent tension building and some good pay offs.
We see our group heal old wounds, seeing elements in a different light. And importantly, we see them putting their previous lessons to good use. We even get some redemption for certain elements of the antagonists, as well as new insight that perhaps Lance wasn’t as rogue as Pamela claimed.
And I’m happy to report that last week’s episode is slotting in better to the wider story now. I still think it was a wee bit iffy, but for someone with no knowledge of film making other than enjoying what I enjoy, it’s for wiser minds to suggest whether it was a necessary slowing of the pace.
With two episodes left, I really think it’s going to go out on a high.
Excellent tension building and some good pay offs.
We see our group heal old wounds, seeing elements in a different light. And importantly, we see them putting their previous lessons to good use. We even get some redemption for certain elements of the antagonists, as well as new insight that perhaps Lance wasn’t as rogue as Pamela claimed.
And I’m happy to report that last week’s episode is slotting in better to the wider story now. I still think it was a wee bit iffy, but for someone with no knowledge of film making other than enjoying what I enjoy, it’s for wiser minds to suggest whether it was a necessary slowing of the pace.
With two episodes left, I really think it’s going to go out on a high.
Just finished the episode and I quite agree.
Spoiler:
I am a sucker for a mercy over wrath plotline. I also found myself thinking, all the armor, weapons and training in the world is useless if you do not have the courage to put them to use… and even if you can find the courage to have a physical fight you still need the courage to do what is morally right. I really thought Mercer was going to let me down.
Its playing with the Cult of Personality, which has been a running theme throughout Walking Dead.
We get a nice bit of exposition from the Commonwealth Dude Daryl Stabs about leadership. But we see the Commonwealth Troops perhaps aren’t universally loyal or without morals. And nice bit of inversion with Negan coming to close to learning the pain he inflicted on others.
Maybe we’re building toward a fairly quiet revolution?
Its playing with the Cult of Personality, which has been a running theme throughout Walking Dead.
We get a nice bit of exposition from the Commonwealth Dude Daryl Stabs about leadership. But we see the Commonwealth Troops perhaps aren’t universally loyal or without morals. And nice bit of inversion with Negan coming to close to learning the pain he inflicted on others.
Maybe we’re building toward a fairly quiet revolution?
Again I agree.
Spoiler:
I am not sure it will be a quiet revolution though. I think the big question is, will the Commonwealth survive a revolution.
The Commonwealth soldiers would make better characters if we got to know some a bit better, they had NCOs/junior officers, with Daryl having become an NCO and then later they recognized Daryl as a former Commonwealth NCO to admire/respect. That may not have been in the comic but that is off screen personal head canon for me.
I am surprised at Eugene‘s character arc. Bit of a roller coaster but considering how much I used to hate the character I have to respect the show fo convincing me to like him. Same with Negan.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Most recent episode for Walking Dead felt disappointing to me. Definitely feels like the show is echoing other previous plotlines. So much so I have to wonder if it is on purpose.
I also managed to finally see Dead in the Water (the Fear the Walking Dead backstory prequel episode about the USS Pennsylvania. It was disappointing even with going in with low expectations. I suppose it could have been worse. Still, I really would like to see the showrunners use at least as much professional military technical advice as the Last Ship had in its early seasons. And that is not an incredibly high bar to reach.
Spoiler:
Lance's death was cliche and anti-climatic. I was really expecting something a bit more… remarkable.
The Commonwealth military do not act at all like trained professional soldiers or police officers. Despite having a West Point trained officer in charge of training. An officer who happens to be the son of a general. And given they train without armor against walkers armed only with a knife in their basic, why do so many panic while in the field with full armor and firearms?
What is the relationship between the Commonwealth and the Civic Republic? I can not see how these two settlements are not aware of each other. And what is with the all white armor for the Commonwealth and all black armor for the Civic Republic?
Why does Pamela's guards wear US Army Dress Uniform Infantry MOS insignia (the blue cords over the shoulder) on their strange black uniforms? Black uniforms… hmm. Coincidence? Probably. But those
While Dead in the Water was disappointing, it left open the door for a better attempt to explain what happened to the rest of the various fleets at sea as well as soldiers in nuclear lunch bunkers. Now, I was not a sailor so I do not know much about he Navy or life aboard a ship/submarine. However, there were things in The Last Ship which “rang true” to me because they mirrored some things I remember from my time in the US Army. And while I was never in a missile silo, I would think from what I have seen as an infantryman that there would be comms, weapons, food and water in abundance in each silo.
It really made no sense to me that the USS Pennsylvania had no comms and yet their was still mobile phone service on shore. Who would give an order to nuke Chicago? Why? It makes no sense to me at all. And think about the time it would take for them to be moved to their location from where they were originally on a NATO station patrol. Are officers on submarines routinely armed with sidearms? If so, some or all of them? Why was more effort not made to secure the armsroom they must surely have. I get that Zombies are terrifying but surely folks specifically selected for mental stability under extreme stress and difficult conditions as well as trained for conflict would react a bit better than what we saw. And aren't sailors taught to repel boarders. Plenty of chokepoints on a sub to channel walkers and kill them one at a time. The more I think about Dead in the Water the more plotholes pop up. Ugh.
In the comic the joke about Negan when he first appeared is that he was Governor II: Govern Harder. However, in the comic he does end up distinguishing himself from The Governor and Pamela is totally different of course.
In the TV show they decided to pretty much make all of them the same except Negan is a good guy now. Just keep doing the same storyline again, it's fine.
Speaking of which, they have now established that The Commonwealth and The Civic Republic are the same thing just one wears white and one wears black. I don't think there's a master plan for all of this, I just think they're out of ideas. I suppose if they can come up with a storyline connection we'll see it in the new Rick Grimes show. He has some sort of connection to The Civic Republic.
The Governor at least pretended to Be A Nice Guy to the folk in his rinkydink outfit. But they largely remained scavengers, and sooner or later were going to come a cropper as supplies became scarcer.
Negan never pretended. Brutality was the order of the day, but could be avoided by Loyalty. He was even surprisingly forgiven. Yes punishments could be harsh (and not always survived) but take your licks, learn your lessons and little stopped you getting back in his good books and a position of responsibility.
Pamela however? My jury is still out on how evil she actually is. Yes the mask does seem to have slipped some, but she’s also dealing with grief. It’s not nice losing a close family member, and whilst I’m not and hope never to be a parent myself, I’d imagine losing a child would be far more upsetting than when I lost my Mum. And that grief is heavily influencing her current actions. Is she vengeful and kind of petty toward Eugene? Yes. But I’d still struggle to say she’s actively evil. Perhaps she just turned a blind eye too often with Lance. Perhaps she knew all along and provided tacit or even direct approval.
Remember. The Commonwealth is said to be 50,000 strong. The access tests do make sense. You’re for all intents and purposes humanities best hope for riding out the apocalypse. Because whilst World Beyond established the dead are snowing delayed decay, they are still decaying. You don’t need to go crusading to take care of them - you just need to keep your walls strong and your people fed for a longer than expected time, doing what you can to keep the number of walkers in the vicinity manageable.
She’s…just a blue blood politician. Not necessarily a good person, just aloof, detached from what passes for Real Life, and potentially uncaring. Being a Karen isn’t a positive trait, but it doesn’t make one evil as such. She may even be a bit thick overall, and reliant on more genuinely malevolent advisors - the corrupt vizier to a fairly useless King, Queen, Emperor etc being a well established trope.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the 50,000 Commonwealthians? That’s sufficient numbers for Pamela not to know people are going missing. And sufficient numbers you need to be strict about who you allow to join.
The world has gone to poo. Anyone coming in now absolutely is a killer. They’ve had to be to survive. That changes people. That creates a motive to screen for threats. Because whilst near everyone will be a killer, that doesn’t make them a murderer, or without control. You offer a pretty decent prize - normality. Life as closer to How It Was Before than anyone else has managed.
Is she corrupt? Yeah. I think she is. Is she inclined to do Bad Things to preserve her position? Sure. But is she an outright bad’ I and Nutter? I’m not convinced. The Commonwealth would be a better place without her in charge I think. But she’s not an outright threat by her nature.
In fact it’s that very ambiguity which sets Pamela apart. The Governor was mad for sure.His actions made little to no sense in the long term. He was paranoid about being supplanted, and tried it hide it to appear normal.. Negan was brutal, but honestly so. He never hid his kills. He never tried to downplay them. But Pamela is far more ambiguous, and whilst by no means squeaky clean, exactly how one sees her is a matter of perspective.
Pamela and Lance started out ambiguous and that's when the storyline was good. Then they descended into cartoonish supervillainy due to this show being anti-nuance. The Commonwealth has secret slave labor now and a non-independent judiciary, secret police death squads. It's just a grab bag of half baked totalitarian ideas. Maybe if it was well done I could be down for it but I swear it's like they are just writing the episode right before it airs. What do we do this week? I don't know - Pamela evil now? Keeps her undead son around like The Governor? Sure, whatever.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Pamela and Lance started out ambiguous and that's when the storyline was good. Then they descended into cartoonish supervillainy due to this show being anti-nuance. The Commonwealth has secret slave labor now and a non-independent judiciary, secret police death squads. It's just a grab bag of half baked totalitarian ideas. Maybe if it was well done I could be down for it but I swear it's like they are just writing the episode right before it airs. What do we do this week? I don't know - Pamela evil now? Keeps her undead son around like The Governor? Sure, whatever.
I am inclined to agree. The show lacks nuance and I do not feel like there is a detailed long term plan for the writers.
Spoiler:
The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying.
The zombie (or Whisperer?) picking up the dropped knife for example in that herd… what is going to become of that? And why did the Commonwealth soldiers spend so much time looking at that herd with spotlights? Do they know to look for people hiding in herds? Why are they not thinning out that herd? One thing about the show I never got, why ever leave a zombie alone if you can put it down? The Commonwealth has never stated an ammunition supply problem. Why do our heroes leave alone zombies today that could kill people tomorrow? Especially when they become more dangerous when they gather in greater numbers. Annoying.
Of course killing even lone zombies gets harder when the writers add more intelligent zombies out of nowhere. Annoying.
I also find the flip flop from “ we can fool the zombies by covering ourselves in blood” to “ack, covering ourselves in blood can kill us” then back to “we can cover ourselves in blood and herd the zombies”…. annoying.
As for Pamela, I fail to see how she is unaware of what her son did, what Lance did and the current slave operations. What I took from the last couple of episodes with Lance is that he looked to Pamela as a surrogate mother figure. He was on par with her son in his malice and that malice was born from the actions of Pamela. And it is implied that she learned that from her father, a former US President. Pamela lied about the lottery, she handed out money to the wealthy, and she expected Mercer to protect her over the general public well being. She is unstable from her grief but I do not think that excuses the rest of her behavior.
I’m still not convinced Pamela is neck deep in it though. Knee deep almost certainly. Ankle deep definitely.
But being a weak leader who gave too much freedom to Evil Vizier is not in itself a crime. A sign of incompetence, absolutely. But not evil.
Let’s also pop on The Specs Of Possibly Wilful Ignorance. The outposts we know were Lance’s pet project, and Pamela was genuinely upset with him when he took the piss with it.
The railway clearance project? They’re far away from The Commonwealth, yeah? I don’t think it’s unreasonable Pamela wouldn’t know what’s going on. Lance handpicks the donkey caves running each project. He picks his own Yes Men, nasty in nature. This doesn’t mean Pamela is aware of what’s going on - or at least the extent.
Maybe she is, but the corruption spread and developed by such degrees well meaning stuff when wrong, and by the time she found out? It was too late. Yes that is enabling behaviour, and a reason to remove her from power. But does it make her evil? I’d say no - again just a weak leader.
Remember, her recent actions follow the loss of her only son. Grief does weird, weird things to you.
The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying
Spoiler:
We had walkers acting differently way back in the very first episode of The Walking Dead (trying to open doors, picking up their teddy bear, etc.). Admittedly, in real life it was because they had not worked out all of the details on how the walkers worked, but we don't have an in-universe explanation of their actions. Add that and the climbers to the scene at end of the 'Variants' episode and we're seeing the set up for the new Daryl Dixon series.
The plot with the new zombie “climbers” for example. I absolutely hated the “I have heard rumors of different types of zombies over the years but ignored them…” from Aaron. It is like having a character that isn’t introduced until the last chapter be the murderer in a murder mystery. If the writers had planted a seed way back when which they intended to be a false lead and now reversed it, that would be bad enough but to try to put something into the past…. annoying
Spoiler:
We had walkers acting differently way back in the very first episode of The Walking Dead (trying to open doors, picking up their teddy bear, etc.). Admittedly, in real life it was because they had not worked out all of the details on how the walkers worked, but we don't have an in-universe explanation of their actions. Add that and the climbers to the scene at end of the 'Variants' episode and we're seeing the set up for the new Daryl Dixon series.
Reconciling those two communities is something I have been having trouble with. So the theory mentioned there helps.
It still feels like Walking Dead constantly wants to jump yet another shark. This issue of variant Zombies is part of the reason I posted up polls on various forums about slow vs fast zombies. So we now have smart, fast, strong… as well as radioactive and armored zombies. Now that I think on it more, it does remind me of Ash adding variants to his game Last Days…..
Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!
Aye, heck of a cliff hanger.
Spoiler:
How is Mercer so incompetent? How has he not built up a network of loyal, reliable officers and NCOs that might notice a bunch of things going on all over the Commonwealth? I am trying to come up with own head canon that Pamela has a bunch of covert CIA and Secret Service assets in the civilian population from when her father was President but it is quite the stretch. How are so many rank & file Commonwealth soldiers willing to lead walkers into the Commonwealth urban center? It would have played better to have different, obvious factions in the Commonwealth Security forces. From Mercer with the Army, to another officer with internal police, and yet another with Pamela’s personal guards.
I will be gutted if Jerry and/or Judith buys it.
Some of the tension is absent due to announced spin-off info.
Climbing zombies…. Super rare… now everywhere. Sigh.
Of course a gate control only has a single guard. Of course.
Sometimes it seems the Commonwealth soldiers are zombies before they get killed.
Still, all that said… fair play to the showrunners to have me on the edge of my seat during this episode. Nice redemption speech from Negan.
This is the first time for a while we’ve seen Zombies in an urban setting.
Given how deft the survivors have become at dealing with Hordes etc, it does kind of make sense the relatively smarter zombies have likewise survived. So it’s not that they’re suddenly more numerous overall, just a higher percentage of whatever stinkyrotbois remain.
Looking forward to rewatching this one.
In terms of finale? Lydia I reckon is toast. We’ve one pre-existent example of someone surviving following limb amputation. Hershel barely made it, and even then thanks to relatively clean environs, sustained medical care and a safe place to be. And whilst Aaron wasn’t bitten (he was squished by a log), he likewise had ready access to some form of sustained medical care.
With Lydia, there’s the question of whether they got it off quick enough, and the strong chance of common or garden infection, not to mention bleeding out.
I don’t disagree with the other things though.
Still disappointed the finale isn’t a super episode, rather than being split. But that’s just me being fussy.
This is the first time for a while we’ve seen Zombies in an urban setting.
Given how deft the survivors have become at dealing with Hordes etc, it does kind of make sense the relatively smarter zombies have likewise survived. So it’s not that they’re suddenly more numerous overall, just a higher percentage of whatever stinkyrotbois remain.
Looking forward to rewatching this one.
In terms of finale? Lydia I reckon is toast. We’ve one pre-existent example of someone surviving following limb amputation. Hershel barely made it, and even then thanks to relatively clean environs, sustained medical care and a safe place to be. And whilst Aaron wasn’t bitten (he was squished by a log), he likewise had ready access to some form of sustained medical care.
With Lydia, there’s the question of whether they got it off quick enough, and the strong chance of common or garden infection, not to mention bleeding out.
I don’t disagree with the other things though.
Still disappointed the finale isn’t a super episode, rather than being split. But that’s just me being fussy.
Fair points mate.
Spoiler:
I agree on Lydia… but I suspect we will still get some drama surrounding her fella. The question is, will she live long enough to find out what happens to him and Jerry, and will they make it. I thought they would be ok but Jerry saying, “See you on the other side” really gave me a bad feeling regarding his life expectancy. Which threw me for a loop because I thought he might end up running the Kingdom 2.0. :(
I’d be surprised if Jerry buys it as a result of Walkers. He was stinked up, and even during the RV scene, only one of the zombies bit, despite a fair amount of action going on. The others were just sort of caught against the tide, and so had to walk on.
And it’s really not the time for anyone to Die Off Screen
Don’t leave it there! Give me the next and final episode now dammit!
Aye, heck of a cliff hanger.
Spoiler:
How is Mercer so incompetent? How has he not built up a network of loyal, reliable officers and NCOs that might notice a bunch of things going on all over the Commonwealth? I am trying to come up with own head canon that Pamela has a bunch of covert CIA and Secret Service assets in the civilian population from when her father was President but it is quite the stretch. How are so many rank & file Commonwealth soldiers willing to lead walkers into the Commonwealth urban center? It would have played better to have different, obvious factions in the Commonwealth Security forces. From Mercer with the Army, to another officer with internal police, and yet another with Pamela’s personal guards.
I will be gutted if Jerry and/or Judith buys it.
Some of the tension is absent due to announced spin-off info.
Climbing zombies…. Super rare… now everywhere. Sigh.
Of course a gate control only has a single guard. Of course.
Sometimes it seems the Commonwealth soldiers are zombies before they get killed.
Still, all that said… fair play to the showrunners to have me on the edge of my seat during this episode. Nice redemption speech from Negan.
Yes, a more nuanced politicking storyline ala Game of Throne would have been better but either these writers don't have that capability or they think their audience is doesn't want anything different. Also, what is the point of all that armour the storm troopers are wearing if it can't even buy you a few seconds against 1 zombie?!
@Mad Doc. Are you still deciding if Pamela is really evil? If so, I also think that is a failure or the writers imparting something to you. I think it's pretty clear the authorial intent with Pamela is that she's a cartoonish supervillian. Like they had to hammer it home so bad that Pamela picks up a machine gun and is somehow the only person that can shoot Judith. Like that is just so uncharacteristic of her that it's laughably bad writing IMO.
Anyway, I going to go ahead and stick that my original theory that this 11 year old show is just going with a non-ending ending because they can't actually have a resolution here. Total destruction of the Evil Commonwealth because they have 4 new zombie shows coming out. Got to keep milking this cow.
That being said, even I will find it hard to resist a Rick and Michonne show.....
She’s definitely a villain. But one who’s position has insulated from the reality of her decisions.
I’m still not convinced she’s as malevolent as say, The Governor who was seemingly a wrong’un from the get go. Pamela I think is the slow corruption of power. A not particularly clever or skilled politician, who allowed those around her to talk her into allowing ever more horrific acts. Her reaction to everything is very…spoiled. She doesn’t give a fig for The Commonwealth, just the power and comforts it’s brought her.
She’s definitely a villain. But one who’s position has insulated from the reality of her decisions.
I’m still not convinced she’s as malevolent as say, The Governor who was seemingly a wrong’un from the get go. Pamela I think is the slow corruption of power. A not particularly clever or skilled politician, who allowed those around her to talk her into allowing ever more horrific acts. Her reaction to everything is very…spoiled. She doesn’t give a fig for The Commonwealth, just the power and comforts it’s brought her.
It is interesting that you and I can get such different impressions from the same character.
I just think she’s been one of Slow Corruption. Turning a blind eye time after time until she’s hips deep in blood.
That in itself is evil of course. But I still think there’s a chance she’s never really taken stock of just what horrors she has sanctioned, because she herself never got her hands dirty. All done through Cat’s Paws and Black Ops type stuff,
And what we know of the apocalypse and the horrors Rick & Co faced? Perhaps there was a time it was justified. For instance, you need to keep the like of The Wolves (remember them?) out of the Commonwealth, for the good of everyone else. Or the cannibals of Terminus. They seemed OK at first, didn’t they? A bit too good to be true, sure. But OK overall.
You can see how that necessity can be corrupted into simply lumping more and more people into Undesirable for ever more spurious reasons.
And yet I took her behavior towards Lance and his history with her family, and her having a father who was President of the United States, as it coming across as a long established (malicious) leadership style established by the family. In fact I saw it as a dig at contemporary American politics and its protection of the rich.
The CIA assassin Lance dug up had to be forced out of retirement. Pamela is quick enough to get on the phone and call outposts rather than rely on someone to manage things for her. She has her own troops that Mercer is unaware of even after Lance and his cronies are out of the picture… and Pamela was behind getting rid of Lance‘s assets as we see in his cell.
I took her scenes with the hunting and her willingness to pick up a rifle against our heroes as being someone who is willing to get her hands dirty, in fact she scorned her son for being weak and expecting others to do his work.
I am still not sure how to interpret her apparent shock both of having blood on her face and shooting Judith. It seemed at odds with how she had been portrayed before that. Her hunting scenes reminded me of the Tywin Lannister hunting butchery scene… so maybe I have given her too much credit. Although she also did not flinch at shooting walkers. This is what I mean about confusing messages from the writers.
To be clear, I have no problem with communities needing to be strict on who they let in. The scene with Corporal Hicks covered that quite well actually. Good plot writing on not knowing exactly who the “good guys” and “bad guys” were on that.
And I get that in Walking Dead who you used to be, what you used to do, matters a whole lot less than what you do right now. Both Negan and Shane reflect that in their character arcs.
Largely satisfying. Surprise casualty in Rosita though.
One bit got me Right In The Feels on a very personal level. Specifically when Judith (my cousin’s namesake) called Maggie (my Mum’s namesake) Aunt Maggie. Was not prepared for that, to the point I never made that particular connection before.
Actually ending is somewhat drawn out, but after 11 seasons I can forgive as I don’t think it completely outstays it’s welcome.
I genuinely don’t recall any Commonwealth Soldier putting those natty forearm blades to use.
I mean, surely they’re there as a hands free, can’t be disarmed at an inopportune moment, last ditch but better than harsh language defence? But we never see anyone even try to use them as such?
It somehow feels surreal for it to be “over” but then of course it was not. For a mediocre at times post-apoc escapist Fantasy I was surprised to find how emotionally attached I had become to several characters during that extended “memories” ending.
Brilliantly done with Maggie and Negan by the way.
Oh, by the way….I am really, really irritated with armor that does nothing in tv shows/movies.
So in addition to the new spin-offs we still have Fear the Walking Dead for at least one more season. Not sure how I feel abou Fear these days. Morgan and Dwight are still pretty cool but everything else is becoming something of a shark jumping stretch.
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