As I was looking though the 40k ReBoot thread, one of the most common things I have seen seems to be a remake of the armor. I Agree it needs it bad, But how would you do it?
I have found two tries at this so far
Anyone know of any more? Which do you like better? How would you change those?
I don't like either, if I'm honest. First one is too angular and the second just does not tell me it's a Marine. Looks more like a human in a suit than an Astartes.
The eight current marks do the job and very well, in my opinion. They convey the heavy, hulking muscular bulk of the Marine whilst still hinting towards grace & athleticism with the smooth curves across the body & limbs, and with the rounded shoulder pads.
Within those eight marks there is a lot of diversity - from the bulky 'Hrrrrr!' Mk II & Mk III, the graceful, although more angular (in places), Mk IV, the beauty that is the Mk V & the quirky appearance of the Mk VI. Mk VII & VIII I do find to be boring but I do like Mk IV & V. Mk I Thunder is just fugly.
If those marks were to be redesigned GW may well lose the visual identity of the Astartes. When you look at an image, such as this, for example;
You know instantly that this is a Space Marine, one of the Angels of Death, one of the sons of the Emperor. No second thoughts, no doubt about it, it's immediately identifiable. That it's a Sergeant from the Crimson Fists is by-the-by. Point is that you identify with the image of the Astartes instantly - it's as much a trademark as 'Warhammer 40,000' is. With people still eagerly buying Space Marines it appears that many people still like the visual appeal of the current designs.
Nothing says "walking man tank" better than an Astartes in Power Armour.
They're supposed to be huge, imposing, intimidating, just by their sheer size. Having some super slim suit cut into mildly realistic plates and proportions makes them just another pointless cliche super solider.
The trick with Space Marine armor is that it is walking tank armor housing a 9 foot tall 350 lb killing machine. Even scouts Carapace armor is "bulkier" than other equivalents due to the necessity for the armor to interact with the marines internal systems via the black carapace. Even the Tau, arguable the most tech advanced race in the game, have huge battle suits to incorporate the same amount of protection as Marine Power Armor. The problem with a massive redesign is that you would lose everything that makes power armor what it is. A big suit of armor that can stop an autocannon shell dead, or shrug off a withering hail of heavy bolter rounds.
Scouts don't have a Black Carapace, and carapace armor doesn't require it, as it's not powered, and a Scout receives his Black Carapace upon his graduation to full Battle Brother. It's the last of the implants.
Incidentally, 9 feet tall is the BL version of SM. They're only 7-8 feet tall, "by the book" (and the real-life scale drawing they have pictures of from the GW offices floating around on the net.). Me, I preferred them as 9 feet myself, but, eh, what ya gonna do, right?
The look of Space Marine Armor is very unique to Warhammer and a complete redesign could ruin that. Having said that, I would like to see more Mk8 Errant Armor marine models:
Psienesis wrote:Scouts don't have a Black Carapace, and carapace armor doesn't require it, as it's not powered, and a Scout receives his Black Carapace upon his graduation to full Battle Brother. It's the last of the implants.
Initiates/Aspirants aren't the only Scouts.
Veteran Astartes(read: Black Carapaced Astartes) in many Chapters will wear Scout Armor if they feel it fits the mission profile.
A pair of good examples are Telion and the Dark Angels' Scout Sergeant Naaman.
I'm a huge fan of maximus armor, and that one Mark XVI or whatever? Prometheus is it? That is cool looking armor.
I think if they went ahead and redid the entire marine line with that style of armor and moved forward with more of that (tac squad of that) I would go to ebay and find a discounted box set.
Veteran Astartes(read: Black Carapaced Astartes) in many Chapters will wear Scout Armor if they feel it fits the mission profile.
But that, then, is a Battle-Brother "dressing down" to Scout gear, not a Scout wearing Power Armor. If I remember correctly, Naaman was the Scout Company Sergeant, which makes him a Space Marine responsible for the training of Scouts. Of course, he's dead now, so w/e, but he was more than "just a Scout" if memory serves. Telion is in the same boat. He's a trainer of Scouts, not a Scout himself. While he might wear Scout armor, because the situation requires it, he's a veteran Battle-Brother, and can kit out in Astartes Power Armor should he need to.
A Veteran Astartes is, by definition, a full-on Space Marine.
All those designs look too anime to be Astartes. The IoM has some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy, manufactured by clumsy Ogryns with big fingers. Everything should look bulky, oversized, and imposing. The idea of the IoM is a technologically superstitious society. The Imperium doesn't understand technology enough to refine and streamline its appearance. If its bulky, who cares? All the IoM and Astartes want to know is if it can kill xenos and heretics.
That's why the IG has WWI-era tanks. That's why shoulder pads are xbox huge. That's why the Astartes look the way they do.
Giving them strealined, sexy, tech-utopia looking gear is the exact opposite of what should be done. You want sexy looking tech? Go play Tau.
Honestly I myself would like to see the armor, without the Gods Awful shoulder pads. The bell bottom legs could use a bit ol work as well, the the shoulder pads are the issue to me.
I wouldn't object to a reduction in shoulder pad size (though it seems to me that the pads are really only exaggerated in the artwork, rather than on the models themselves... or maybe I'm just so used to seeing them in plastic that they don't look off to me anymore...) on the basic Marine design. I don't think the legs need any alteration (think of all the weight they support... being wider at the bottom isnt a bad thing).
If you want Master Chief play HALO. If you want Anime Mech suits, watch anime. This is 40k you're talking about, the Space Marine and his armor are as much an icon as the double headed aquilla or the trademark words "Warhammer 40,000". SM are supposed to look like a giant armored wall running at you full speed, they aren't supped to look like fey armored acrobats. If you want that play Tau or one of the Eldar.
All those suits look like they would fit better into the Tau or Eldar lines not with Space Marines.
Hunterindarkness wrote:As I was looking though the 40k ReBoot thread, one of the most common things I have seen seems to be a remake of the armor. I Agree it needs it bad, But how would you do it?
I have found two tries at this so far
Anyone know of any more? Which do you like better? How would you change those?
I personally like the second one. It is more in mine with the original SM from '87, thus has a logical progression from it. Armour like that would get me interested in SM, to be honest...
No changes for Space Marine armor. The current look says "Take cover? Pfft! Forward!!"
I agree with the feelings that those "new looks" are more Tau, or IG not space marines.
I remember reading a story describing trench warfare between Ultramarines and Tyranids. A Termagaunt landed in a tench on a marine sgt's back and he threw himself flat on his back, rolled back and forth and crushed it. Space Marines should have huge bone structures and frames.
Phydox wrote:No changes for Space Marine armor. The current look says "Take cover? Pfft! Forward!!"
I agree with the feelings that those "new looks" are more Tau, or IG not space marines.
I remember reading a story describing trench warfare between Ultramarines and Tyranids. A Termagaunt landed in a tench on a marine sgt's back and he threw himself flat on his back, rolled back and forth and crushed it. Space Marines should have huge bone structures and frames.
Perhaps the new look should be more like Robocop?
*shrugs* To be faire, I'm not a big fan of the SM. If they looked like the 25th Anniversary model, I would be more interested...
Besides it has been argued to death before if power armour proportions prevents it form actaully letting the marine move, rise his arms, close his legs, etc. But power armour is power armour, this is grimdark, when size does matter and GW has a crush with oversizeing weapons, armour, etc. If you take a look you will find lots of examples. Power armour is one of this, but without it, marines wouldn't be the monsters they are supposed to be in fluff.
slick_jimmy wrote:The trick with Space Marine armor is that it is walking tank armor housing a 9 foot tall 350 lb killing machine
Do you know how fething absurdly skinny you'd be if you weight 350 lbs at 9 feet tall? And second, Space Marines are only 7-7.5 feet tall, not 9. That's just jibberish from Black Library authors trying to make the Marines seem more exciting sounding. But a 9 foot Space Marine would probably weight like 600-700 pounds, outside his armor. Maybe more. You have to remember that increasing along with height is the size and density of the bone structure designed to support all that weight.
I know some mouth-breather will throw a fit about rule of cool, but honestly, the larger they get past 7-7.5 feet, the less useful and less efficient they are. They become too big and too heavy to be supported by structures designed for regular humans, they become too tall and too wide to fit in a lot of passage ways or doors, etc. Since there are a gazillion regular humans and 1 million Marines, you guess what the vast majority of structures are sized for.
Then again, I guess this is also the universe where super-heavy tanks and titans are plausible and wouldn't require absurdly careful planning to ensure the ground composition was sturdy enough to bear their weight.
slick_jimmy wrote:The trick with Space Marine armor is that it is walking tank armor housing a 9 foot tall 350 lb killing machine
Do you know how fething absurdly skinny you'd be if you weight 350 lbs at 9 feet tall? And second, Space Marines are only 7-7.5 feet tall, not 9. That's just jibberish from Black Library authors trying to make the Marines seem more exciting sounding. But a 9 foot Space Marine would probably weight like 600-700 pounds, outside his armor. Maybe more. You have to remember that increasing along with height is the size and density of the bone structure designed to support all that weight.
I know some mouth-breather will throw a fit about rule of cool, but honestly, the larger they get past 7-7.5 feet, the less useful and less efficient they are. They become too big and too heavy to be supported by structures designed for regular humans, they become too tall and too wide to fit in a lot of passage ways or doors, etc. Since there are a gazillion regular humans and 1 million Marines, you guess what the vast majority of structures are sized for.
Then again, I guess this is also the universe where super-heavy tanks and titans are plausible and wouldn't require absurdly careful planning to ensure the ground composition was sturdy enough to bear their weight.
Here is a fun question... how well would SM be against the Clone Troopers from Star Wars? They may lack the power armour, but my money would be on the Clone Troopers...
Space Marines seem somewhat over-hyped to me. One reason why I don't like them.
slick_jimmy wrote:The trick with Space Marine armor is that it is walking tank armor housing a 9 foot tall 350 lb killing machine
Do you know how fething absurdly skinny you'd be if you weight 350 lbs at 9 feet tall? And second, Space Marines are only 7-7.5 feet tall, not 9. That's just jibberish from Black Library authors trying to make the Marines seem more exciting sounding. But a 9 foot Space Marine would probably weight like 600-700 pounds, outside his armor. Maybe more. You have to remember that increasing along with height is the size and density of the bone structure designed to support all that weight.
I know some mouth-breather will throw a fit about rule of cool, but honestly, the larger they get past 7-7.5 feet, the less useful and less efficient they are. They become too big and too heavy to be supported by structures designed for regular humans, they become too tall and too wide to fit in a lot of passage ways or doors, etc. Since there are a gazillion regular humans and 1 million Marines, you guess what the vast majority of structures are sized for.
Then again, I guess this is also the universe where super-heavy tanks and titans are plausible and wouldn't require absurdly careful planning to ensure the ground composition was sturdy enough to bear their weight.
Here is a fun question... how well would SM be against the Clone Troopers from Star Wars? They may lack the power armour, but my money would be on the Clone Troopers...
Space Marines seem somewhat over-hyped to me. One reason why I don't like them.
The Space Marines would decimate Clone Troopers. Clone Troopers would be about as good as well trained Guardsmen. Space Marines are on a whole different level, armour wise, equipment wise and training wise. Aaaaand now I've answered a 40k vs Star Wars question.
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Hunterindarkness wrote:Better then most , for sure. Still it has those nagging shoulder pad issues of the rest. Where does that Image come from?
I'm not sure if it's the original source, but the image you were asking about appears in the Dornian Heresy Ultramarines section.
slick_jimmy wrote:The trick with Space Marine armor is that it is walking tank armor housing a 9 foot tall 350 lb killing machine
Do you know how fething absurdly skinny you'd be if you weight 350 lbs at 9 feet tall? And second, Space Marines are only 7-7.5 feet tall, not 9. That's just jibberish from Black Library authors trying to make the Marines seem more exciting sounding. But a 9 foot Space Marine would probably weight like 600-700 pounds, outside his armor. Maybe more. You have to remember that increasing along with height is the size and density of the bone structure designed to support all that weight.
I know some mouth-breather will throw a fit about rule of cool, but honestly, the larger they get past 7-7.5 feet, the less useful and less efficient they are. They become too big and too heavy to be supported by structures designed for regular humans, they become too tall and too wide to fit in a lot of passage ways or doors, etc. Since there are a gazillion regular humans and 1 million Marines, you guess what the vast majority of structures are sized for.
Then again, I guess this is also the universe where super-heavy tanks and titans are plausible and wouldn't require absurdly careful planning to ensure the ground composition was sturdy enough to bear their weight.
Here is a fun question... how well would SM be against the Clone Troopers from Star Wars? They may lack the power armour, but my money would be on the Clone Troopers...
Space Marines seem somewhat over-hyped to me. One reason why I don't like them.
Please don't start this...
A clone trooper is a clone of a mandalorian, with a few genetic changes (ie grow faster, learn faster, obey orders to the letter), but other than that, they're mandalorians. Mandalorians are a warrior people, naturally strong and have amazing martial prowress... but that's about it.. They're natural, they haven't tinkered with their genes, they don't have super organs, their blood doesn't clot at amazing speeds and so on and so forth.
It's not just the armour they lack but the whole shebang that makes a SM a SPHEZ MARINEZ....
Personally I like clone troopers, they're fun and well they look cool, but don't pit them against a SM otherwise they'll begin to look more like bantha fodder...
SM's at 9ft? I think we've had this discussion before... size isn't everything , bigger is better, but it gets to the point where bigger is stupid... 7.5-8 ft is already pretty big. I mean I'm like 5'7, so there's a lot that's taller than me, but 9ft? Rather unproportionate.... I don't think they'd fit through ANY doorway....
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Sovereign6 wrote:I feel like I'm the only one who absolutely loves the shoulder pauldrons. :[
You're not alone
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Hunterindarkness wrote:As I was looking though the 40k ReBoot thread, one of the most common things I have seen seems to be a remake of the armor. I Agree it needs it bad, But how would you do it?
I have found two tries at this so far
Anyone know of any more? Which do you like better? How would you change those?
I like this one though... not really sphez marine-y, but I like the pic, SAVED!
Marines are definitely between 7 and 8 feet tall. Much broader than normal humans, and much taller too. How many 7 foot tall people do you see on a daily basis? 6 to 6'5 not uncommon but anything over 6'6 is rare let alone 7-8 feet. I think the 9foot confusion comes in when talking about the Primarchs. The Primarchs (Alpharius and Omegon excepted) are a good foot, or more in some cases, larger than a Space Marine. I think that's where the 9 foot tall rumor comes from at least/
I'm quite fond of this redesign, and would buy a fair few boxes worth of them, were models to be released in this style (with decent proportions for once too):
I find it to be a vast improvement to the Space Marine design, both aesthetically and functionally, while remaining faithful to the original look.
That said, I think the major issue with Space Marine armour is not the design itself, but the way they're represented in the models. The proportions are just so horrendous.
As for Space Marine height, 7 feet is plenty. I'm 6'2", and my roommate is 6'4", and he still appears to tower over me. A few inches is a lot, especially once you throw bulk into the equation.
Fafnir wrote:I'm quite fond of this redesign, and would buy a fair few boxes worth of them, were models to be released in this style (with decent proportions for once too):
I find it to be a vast improvement to the Space Marine design, both aesthetically and functionally, while remaining faithful to the original look.
That said, I think the major issue with Space Marine armour is not the design itself, but the way they're represented in the models. The proportions are just so horrendous.
As for Space Marine height, 7 feet is plenty. I'm 6'2", and my roommate is 6'4", and he still appears to tower over me. A few inches is a lot, especially once you throw bulk into the equation.
Looks like Gears of War Marine to me. Hooray for Captain Marcus Fenix from the COG Marine Chapter. Also looks a bit like Warjack Marines.
Considering the great disdain I have for Gears of War, especially its horrid character design, I'd have to disagree.
The shoulders themselves are smaller than normal Astartes powered armour (the marine could believably look to their side, for example), and everything on a whole looks like it can actually move to a more realistic degree. Furthermore, the above design eschews the Space Marine and Gears of War aesthetic of massively bulky bell-bottom leg armour in favour of a sleeker, more efficient appearance, while retaining the idea of functionality with a leg-shield that would be effective while kneeling.
The shoulder pads and large shin guards actually makes sense much like a tank's glacis plate. They are armored more heavily where shots are likely to strike. The shoulder pads act like attached shields.
Those are not attracted shields, but attached riot shields of such size not only can you not look to your sides, but can not lift your arms. I feel like they should be able to roll up in a great armored ball like a human armodilo.
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Fafnir wrote:I'm quite fond of this redesign, and would buy a fair few boxes worth of them, were models to be released in this style (with decent proportions for once too):
I find it to be a vast improvement to the Space Marine design, both aesthetically and functionally, while remaining faithful to the original look.
I agree, it still has two issues, that Single odd shin guard and those shoulders are still to large.
Those are not attracted shields, but attached riot shields of such size not only can you not look to your sides, but can not lift your arms. I feel like they should be able to roll up in a great armored ball like a human armodilo.
They can lift their arms because it's power armor. Marines can see just fine, just like you can raise and lower your shoulders so can space marines. Plus you have to remember space marines have auto senses, they don't even see with their eyes its all direct fed data. What is stopping this guy from seeing over his shoulder?
Those are not attracted shields, but attached riot shields of such size not only can you not look to your sides, but can not lift your arms. I feel like they should be able to roll up in a great armored ball like a human armodilo.
They can lift their arms because it's power armor. Marines can see just fine, just like you can raise and lower your shoulders so can space marines. Plus you have to remember space marines have auto senses, they don't even see with their eyes its all direct fed data. What is stopping this guy from seeing over his shoulder?
The problem is that the models look nothing like this.
I see no reason to redesign marine armour and most of the examples given in this thread seem like allusions to mundane conventional sci fi mise en scene which (minus the Tau) 40K manages to steer clear of. No thanks.
And the idea that they can't see over their shoulders is not evident on the models. It's only evident in the recent trend of marine artwork which for some reason has decided to give marines tiny heads.
The shoulders can move up and down anyway depending on how much defense is needed. The main issue with sight would be more be up to the "eyes", looking down without moving their head for example.
I do find it funny how the space marine cant see over his shoulder pads. It like he saying theres no point in looking anyway but straight ahead.
As for clone troppers, get that rubbish out of here. They fight using ranks. And cant hit the broadside of a barn. They only won due to the droids clustering up in ranks as well. It was like watching two neapolionic armies fight... With machineguns.
You do notice in those models how the two men in the background are going to decapitate themselves as soon as they left those arms. Look at the trooper in white. somehow his right pad is almost gone, which the left pad rests on his neck.
Chap on the left is an Apothecary, not just a 'trooper in white'. His shoulder pad has rotated round - as he lifted and rotated the arm so has the pad moved with it. His left pad sits near to his helm but there is an obvious gap between them. The two at the rear could probably flap their arms up and down without coming near to hitting their heads with the pad rims.
If the pauldrons are attached at the top of the shoulder joint, like medieval armor, it's impossible to "chop your head off" by lifting your arms, unless somehow you are a mutant and your shoulder joints are too close to your head.
I fight in medieval plate-mail, and I cannot get my pauldrons to hit my own head even if I am doing pull-ups or basketball jump-shots in my armor, unless I tilt my head wayyy over to the side, or I use the set that has sword-catcher edges that stick up like on a Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Chaos marine's pad. Now THOSE are stupidly designed and would cut your head off.
At worst, Space Marines' large rounded pads would mean that because their helmet is also large, they could possibly bonk into the pauldron at about the ear-level. And because they are attached at the top of the shoulders/arms, anything other that lifting the arms straight out from the sides causes them to rotate back like on the apothecary/standard bearer. If anything, like on the actual models, you then have to worry about the pad connecting with the backpack vent.
Pilau Rice wrote:If a Space Marine has an enemy behind him he isn't fighting right.
Marines are specialists in line breaking and surgical strikes behind enemy lines. Surely if they DON'T have an enemy behind them they are doing something wrong...
Pilau Rice wrote:If a Space Marine has an enemy behind him he isn't fighting right.
Marines are specialists in line breaking and surgical strikes behind enemy lines. Surely if they DON'T have an enemy behind them they are doing something wrong...
No, it's like a Space Marine sandwich, they are the bread the Ham and Cheese is the enemy.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I do find it funny how the space marine cant see over his shoulder pads. It like he saying theres no point in looking anyway but straight ahead.
As for clone troppers, get that rubbish out of here. They fight using ranks. And cant hit the broadside of a barn. They only won due to the droids clustering up in ranks as well. It was like watching two neapolionic armies fight... With machineguns.
Yeah, it's a daft idea. Like a 17th Century pirate fighting against a 14th century French knight. They did this in a series called "History's Deadliest Warriors." The knight was a tank, and the armour saved him a lot of the time. But some of the items in the Pirate's arsenal are, in fact, armour piercing. And when they did the simulations, they found that the pirate, in fact won the fight.
Clone Troopers were for the Clone Wars. After that, there were regular people signing up, and the quality of the troops went right down. The Clones were also disgusted at the reduction in quality. So, Stormtroopers are naff, and we are dealing with Clone Troopers. Whilst they have weaker armour, they also have a lot more agility and flexibility in it. How quickly can a SM move with the power armour? Super fast? Okay...
So Power Armour makes you invincible.
Unless you disable the Power Armour.
Think about it: that armour needs a power source to keep going. It needs to function right, or else the Marine inside isn't going very far. And if the visual system is disabled, then he can't see. A Clone Trooper can quickly rip off his helmet when it is damaged. The SM can't do that. Period. Here is why...
THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
This is the problem the Knight had: Yes, he could protect himself from most attacks, because he is a walking tank. But his movements were much more restricted. He had a more limited field of vision. I would assume that the Vision system for the SM armour would work along the same lines. Can the guy turn his head well in that helmet? And back to the shoulder pads... they are of a design that would hit against the chest armour at about 75 degrees, by my reckoning. Which means he lacks the movement to take of his helmet, or if he can, it'll take him time. Which is all that is needed for someone to deal a killing blow.
Manoeuvrability is a deadly weapon. Just ask the DE.
Also, People said that the Clones were made from a Mandalorian. Yep, one that Dooku had quietly put through the wringer, making sure that there was a very high chance Jango Fett would die. He survived, and thrived in the scenario. He never knew he was being tested, however. And Mandalorians are tough SOBs. They are a tribe, if you will, living on the planet Mandalore. They are bound by ideology, not genetics. Boba Fetts own Granddaughter is quarter Kiffar, a non human species. And Boba Fett, whilst not a Clone Trooper, managed to fight his way out of the Sarlacc, killing it in the process, kick Vader's behinney (Not killing him, simply because he didn't think it was worth having the Empire's wrath on him for all eternity), fed intelligence to the New Republic -and eventually - fought directly with them in the Yuuzhan Vong War, and trained Han Solo's daughter to kill the Sith Lord that was threatening the galaxy. And she did it, too.
Therefore, nature created one utter badass with Jango Fett, and his DNA isn't to be taken lightly.
Also, the Clone Troopers had freedom of thought as well. Large numbers questioned Order 66, and some disobeyed it outright. Which is right, when you look at the wording of Order 66. It was a Jedi Kill command sneaked in a long list of protocols. Others did obey without question, true. But they were able to assess orders, and question them.
If people still want to go and say there is no contest, consider this: Trooper armour is nothing like proper Mandalorian armour. Because it is made from Mandalorian Iron, which would happily deflect Lasgun fire, and most - if not all - weapons fire.
Also, all you need to do with a Space Marine is field an injury that'll cause internal bleeding. It'll slow him down long enough to start tearing up the Power Armour, which is the true objective. Cacked up Power armour is like tying an anchor to your neck. If one leg is disabled, you're not going to be running, or walking, are you?
This is all before we consider the ballistic capabilities of Clone Trooper firepower, and SM Ballistic firepower. Do they match up? I doubt it.
All this feeds into my feel that the 25th Anniversary armour is far, far better than the current SM design. It shows greater flexibility, mobility, with the same durability of current SM armour.
If you've never done Medieval re-enactments, you'll never understand the trade-offs and hindrances armour has. It isn't all benefits.
Sardaukar
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yep, another army that'd wipe out the SM is the one from the Dune series...
You do realise that you don't need to lift your arms very high at all to remove a helmet? All you need to do is have your upper arms at right angles to your body, elbows pointing in front of you, upper arms pointing in to grab the helmet and lift. It wouldn't even affect the angle the shoulder pads are attached at.
Power armour is also designed so that the wearer's speed isn't actually affected by wearing it, hence the Marines are faster than normal humans despite the armour.
Regarding ballistics, Clone troopers have lasers, Marines have self-propelled explosives firing from a machine gun as standard weaponry.
Durza wrote:You do realise that you don't need to lift your arms very high at all to remove a helmet? All you need to do is have your upper arms at right angles to your body, elbows pointing in front of you, upper arms pointing in to grab the helmet and lift. It wouldn't even affect the angle the shoulder pads are attached at.
Power armour is also designed so that the wearer's speed isn't actually affected by wearing it, hence the Marines are faster than normal humans despite the armour.
Regarding ballistics, Clone troopers have lasers, Marines have self-propelled explosives firing from a machine gun as standard weaponry.
Right angle=90 Degrees.
Shoulder pad Mobility= 75 degrees.
Oh, and 135 degrees is the maximum a person can do, based on my guesswork, based on the assumption the person has full mobility in their arms.
Clone Troopers have Blasters, Ion Blasters, heavy... wait. Ion Blasters can disrupt electrical components. SM Power Armour has electrical components, to make them super fast and super strong. So, if you used Ion Cannons, you could disable entire squads of Power Armoured SM, and then take them apart at your leisure.
Which is in my assessment in the first place. The armour is a massive weakness if it is disrupted. Don't aim to kill the SM, aim to disrupt and disable his power armour.
As stated, there are advantages and disadvantages to armour.
Stonelessword wrote:Blasters are lasers but basically plasma weapons. I would love to see star wars meet 40k though would be and interesting deal.
Agreed. When you consider that one thing ignored so far is tactics, it'd get really interesting to see what would happen.
I love how people are rooting for SM to win, when they've clearly got no idea as to the topic. With all combat, there are trade-offs and advantages/disadvantages. If you've done proper re-enactment stuff, you'll appreciate restrictions armour has and everything.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.
This one has an interesting vibe
I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit
I'm willing to bet that Space Marine armor, if it were real, would be build just like medieval armor. A pauldron (shoulder armor) floats above your shoulder and doesn't get in the way of 75% of more of arm movements. Actually, very much like my avatar.
They aren't like knee-pads, which are tight over the joint. There's a free-moving armored arm under there, encased in it's own armor (specifically, the part that goes around the bicep is called a "rerebrace", as opposed to the "vambrace" that is over the forearm). If you jump up, as you come down a pauldron will flop up some and then come back down on it's own with a clang when you hit the ground.
In medieval platemail, the pauldron is hung from a strap at the top (either to the neck or torso armor) and usually loosely attached to the rerebrace with segmented "lames" that go over the outside of the upper arm like a lobster-tail (they're so no weapon can slide up under the outside edge of the pauldron), and then a simple strap that goes around the arm (but it's not tight around the arm). All this really does is to keep the pauldron and lames from flopping free forwards and backwards too much when you swing your arm.
In Marine armor, I'll bet that it would look just like when you are putting a plastic figure together, and there is a smaller shoulder and arm underneath the pauldron that it 'cups' over. It's just rather than being attached all over the shoulder like you would glue a figure, it's just attached at the top and probably hangs free under it's own weight.
When you raise your arm in a set of pauldrons, they just slide down along the outside of the bicep as the arm comes up. They barely move in towards the head until your arms are quite far up past horizontal to your body.
AegisGrimm wrote:I'm willing to bet that Space Marine armor, if it were real, would be build just like medieval armor. A pauldron (shoulder armor) floats above your shoulder and doesn't get in the way of 75% of more of arm movements. Actually, very much like my avatar.
They aren't like knee-pads, which are tight over the joint. There's a free-moving armored arm under there, encased in it's own armor (specifically, the part that goes around the bicep is called a "rerebrace", as opposed to the "vambrace" that is over the forearm). If you jump up, as you come down a pauldron will flop up some and then come back down on it's own with a clang when you hit the ground.
In medieval platemail, the pauldron is hung from a strap at the top (either to the neck or torso armor) and usually loosely attached to the rerebrace with segmented "lames" that go over the outside of the upper arm like a lobster-tail (they're so no weapon can slide up under the outside edge of the pauldron), and then a simple strap that goes around the arm (but it's not tight around the arm). All this really does is to keep the pauldron and lames from flopping free forwards and backwards too much when you swing your arm.
In Marine armor, I'll bet that it would look just like when you are putting a plastic figure together, and there is a smaller shoulder and arm underneath the pauldron that it 'cups' over. It's just rather than being attached all over the shoulder like you would glue a figure, it's just attached at the top and probably hangs free under it's own weight.
When you raise your arm in a set of pauldrons, they just slide down along the outside of the bicep as the arm comes up. They barely move in towards the head until your arms are quite far up past horizontal to your body.
One problem with your argument is that you are fielding the assumption that SM shoulder pads can be compared to pauldrons from medieval armour. I doubt any soldier from that time period would consider wearing armour designed to go on the set of Dynasty... Not to mention that they also kill the side view something chronic.
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AegisGrimm wrote:If the pauldrons are attached at the top of the shoulder joint, like medieval armor, it's impossible to "chop your head off" by lifting your arms, unless somehow you are a mutant and your shoulder joints are too close to your head.
I fight in medieval plate-mail, and I cannot get my pauldrons to hit my own head even if I am doing pull-ups or basketball jump-shots in my armor, unless I tilt my head wayyy over to the side, or I use the set that has sword-catcher edges that stick up like on a Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Chaos marine's pad. Now THOSE are stupidly designed and would cut your head off.
At worst, Space Marines' large rounded pads would mean that because their helmet is also large, they could possibly bonk into the pauldron at about the ear-level. And because they are attached at the top of the shoulders/arms, anything other that lifting the arms straight out from the sides causes them to rotate back like on the apothecary/standard bearer. If anything, like on the actual models, you then have to worry about the pad connecting with the backpack vent.
Didn't dee this at first... looks like we have the answer to the debate...
Cameron Baum wrote:
Also, People said that the Clones were made from a Mandalorian. Yep, one that Dooku had quietly put through the wringer, making sure that there was a very high chance Jango Fett would die. He survived, and thrived in the scenario. He never knew he was being tested, however. And Mandalorians are tough SOBs. They are a tribe, if you will, living on the planet Mandalore. They are bound by ideology, not genetics. Boba Fetts own Granddaughter is quarter Kiffar, a non human species. And Boba Fett, whilst not a Clone Trooper, managed to fight his way out of the Sarlacc, killing it in the process, kick Vader's behinney (Not killing him, simply because he didn't think it was worth having the Empire's wrath on him for all eternity), fed intelligence to the New Republic -and eventually - fought directly with them in the Yuuzhan Vong War, and trained Han Solo's daughter to kill the Sith Lord that was threatening the galaxy. And she did it, too.
Therefore, nature created one utter badass with Jango Fett, and his DNA isn't to be taken lightly.
Also, the Clone Troopers had freedom of thought as well. Large numbers questioned Order 66, and some disobeyed it outright. Which is right, when you look at the wording of Order 66. It was a Jedi Kill command sneaked in a long list of protocols. Others did obey without question, true. But they were able to assess orders, and question them.
If people still want to go and say there is no contest, consider this: Trooper armour is nothing like proper Mandalorian armour. Because it is made from Mandalorian Iron, which would happily deflect Lasgun fire, and most - if not all - weapons fire.
Also, all you need to do with a Space Marine is field an injury that'll cause internal bleeding. It'll slow him down long enough to start tearing up the Power Armour, which is the true objective. Cacked up Power armour is like tying an anchor to your neck. If one leg is disabled, you're not going to be running, or walking, are you?
This is all before we consider the ballistic capabilities of Clone Trooper firepower, and SM Ballistic firepower. Do they match up? I doubt it.
All this feeds into my feel that the 25th Anniversary armour is far, far better than the current SM design. It shows greater flexibility, mobility, with the same durability of current SM armour.
If you've never done Medieval re-enactments, you'll never understand the trade-offs and hindrances armour has. It isn't all benefits.
Sardaukar
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yep, another army that'd wipe out the SM is the one from the Dune series...
Yes i made the point about mandalorians. They are bound by ideology and not genetics, that I agree with. But that's not to say that there aren't people out in 40k that have the same sort of ideologies and skills. There are plenty of warrior peoples across the galaxy, cadians, valhallans.... etc... SM are recruited from worlds like these, deathworlds, hive gangs, the SM recruit the toughest they can find. Salamanders recruit from a death world that goes through major geological upheavals, SW recruit from a frozen death world that has wolves the size of a man, you fight or you die. So after they've selected the best from these death worlds, they go a step further and enhance them with genetics and implants.
Boba fett is a bad ass that's true, but there are plenty of people in 40k that aren't genetically enhanced that have done things just as bad. Just look at all the IGBL novels, there's tonnes of that stuff.
SM have freedom of thought as well, sure plenty of them go through the whole brain washing business but then how do you explain all the renegades that have left the Imperium? They choose to leave, something someone without freewill wouldn't have been able to. Plus all of the other little occurences where marines disobey their superiors to finish missions and so on and so forth.
Trooper armour stops lasguns yes.... but how bout rocket propelled grenades flying at you at high rates? How about plasma shots? Flamers? Or droids? Clone Troopers die by the numbers, I fail to see how their armour could stop all weapon's fire.
You do know that SM's have amazing healing rates right? Larraman cells basically go to the sites of bleeding and clot it up pretty quickly forming a layer of skin/skab... And how would you give a SM internal bleeding? Punch him in the gut? Explosives? Things that SM armour is designed to protect against?
I'm also not blind to the cons of SM armour however, I know it's slow, I know there are probably some places on his back he can't scratch, but trying to compare clone trooper armour to a SM's is just no comparison. Sure if there were two people of the same skill in both suits of armour, I would be inclined to try testing that, but other than that... It just doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Yes i made the point about mandalorians. They are bound by ideology and not genetics, that I agree with. But that's not to say that there aren't people out in 40k that have the same sort of ideologies and skills. There are plenty of warrior peoples across the galaxy, cadians, valhallans.... etc... SM are recruited from worlds like these, deathworlds, hive gangs, the SM recruit the toughest they can find. Salamanders recruit from a death world that goes through major geological upheavals, SW recruit from a frozen death world that has wolves the size of a man, you fight or you die. So after they've selected the best from these death worlds, they go a step further and enhance them with genetics and implants.
Boba fett is a bad ass that's true, but there are plenty of people in 40k that aren't genetically enhanced that have done things just as bad. Just look at all the IGBL novels, there's tonnes of that stuff.
SM have freedom of thought as well, sure plenty of them go through the whole brain washing business but then how do you explain all the renegades that have left the Imperium? They choose to leave, something someone without freewill wouldn't have been able to. Plus all of the other little occurences where marines disobey their superiors to finish missions and so on and so forth.
Trooper armour stops lasguns yes.... but how bout rocket propelled grenades flying at you at high rates? How about plasma shots? Flamers? Or droids? Clone Troopers die by the numbers, I fail to see how their armour could stop all weapon's fire.
You do know that SM's have amazing healing rates right? Larraman cells basically go to the sites of bleeding and clot it up pretty quickly forming a layer of skin/skab... And how would you give a SM internal bleeding? Punch him in the gut? Explosives? Things that SM armour is designed to protect against?
I'm also not blind to the cons of SM armour however, I know it's slow, I know there are probably some places on his back he can't scratch, but trying to compare clone trooper armour to a SM's is just no comparison. Sure if there were two people of the same skill in both suits of armour, I would be inclined to try testing that, but other than that... It just doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.
Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.
Also, we have to assume that Clone Trooper armour is an evolution from Republic Trooper armour, which can take grenades, and all sorts. Just look at the trailers for "The Old Republic," and you'll see it.
As for droid troops... Well, they are powered by mechanical and electrical systems, so should be vulnerable to Ion Blasters. Why they were not used en masse is a mystery to me.
As for the SM, and all of their magic marvels... I love it. It makes me smile. Being bigger, they would have to work harder to deal with their higher centre of gravity, not to mention work hard on speed, agility, And manoeuvrability, to compensate for their big, heavy frame. Not to mention the fact they are in a tank-suit, and this slows them down further. Not to mention the massive metabolism these guys will have, to support and maintain such a robust frame. Gracile builds are less energy - and resource - demanding than Robust frames. Which means less need to eat, and all of that. And given the stupid shoulder pads that stop the helmet from coming off, they would need a food tube or something to keep them fuelled. And lets not go into waste... I'd hate to think amount of poo these guys would produce from all the eating they have to do. It'd be like elephants...
I think you should watch some episodes of "History's Deadliest Warriors," because it'd be an eye opener for you. It was for me... Apache warriors have no armour, and they are scary, scary folks. You have them teaching US troops to this day techniques. Armour isn't everything.
In an awful lot of the fluff, particularly the older stuff, SM shoulder pads are described as being 'auto-reactive', that is they can automatically adjust their position depending on where the SM is looking. Power Armour is just a suit of armour wirh a few motors in it, it's supposed to be advanced stuff, so adjusting parts of itself to suit the position of the wearers head or arms should be well within it's remit.
This stuff is an intelligent, protective, life-supporting and enhancing item of technological wonder, not just a few bits of carefully beaten tin and some leather straps.
farmersboy wrote:In an awful lot of the fluff, particularly the older stuff, SM shoulder pads are described as being 'auto-reactive', that is they can automatically adjust their position depending on where the SM is looking. Power Armour is just a suit of armour wirh a few motors in it, it's supposed to be advanced stuff, so adjusting parts of itself to suit the position of the wearers head or arms should be well within it's remit.
This stuff is an intelligent, protective, life-supporting and enhancing item of technological wonder, not just a few bits of carefully beaten tin and some leather straps.
Considering that PA functions quite fine in areas of intense radiation I would say it definitly has EMP resistance.
and all the arguments about space marines being unable to rip their helmets off quickly are absurd. In BL novels they rip their helmets off quite quickly when they get disabled.
and the Pauldrons are moterized to move, if the pauldron would constrict the marines movements it will automatically move to a place its not. Remember that the Blace Carapace literally fuses the marine with his armor, he can control it as if it were his own body.
Clone Troopers may be well trained, however they are still just piddly humans in armor that is only designed to stop energy weapons(and rather poorly at that as troopers take direct hits on their chest plates and it does practically nothing to stop it) SW fluff has anything that does kinetic damage pop right through. Even Jedi can't block solid projectiles very well in the fluff.
Clone Troopers might be on the same level as Stormtroopers for equipment and Cadians for training. Space Marines will slaughter these guys.
Yes, the space marines arn't invincible but the Clone Troopers would need to bring anti-tank weapons to bear to have even a chance of taking them down quickly.
How in the name of the Emperor did this become 40k vs SW? Anyhow On the shoulder pads, yeah guys I find them to freaking big, you can keep comparing them to knights armor, but a 14th century knights armor' shoulders were not the size of shields and did not cover him from neck to elbow. Even a reduction of about 30% would do worlds of good.
RAVEN 97 wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.
This one has an interesting vibe
I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit
I myself Like the shoulder pads as well, the things has some flaws, its to busy for 40k for one and why in Gods name is the top of his head exposed? Over all I find it a good base for an armor type.
Grey Templar wrote:Considering that PA functions quite fine in areas of intense radiation I would say it definitly has EMP resistance.
and all the arguments about space marines being unable to rip their helmets off quickly are absurd. In BL novels they rip their helmets off quite quickly when they get disabled.
and the Pauldrons are moterized to move, if the pauldron would constrict the marines movements it will automatically move to a place its not. Remember that the Blace Carapace literally fuses the marine with his armor, he can control it as if it were his own body.
Clone Troopers may be well trained, however they are still just piddly humans in armor that is only designed to stop energy weapons(and rather poorly at that as troopers take direct hits on their chest plates and it does practically nothing to stop it) SW fluff has anything that does kinetic damage pop right through. Even Jedi can't block solid projectiles very well in the fluff.
Clone Troopers might be on the same level as Stormtroopers for equipment and Cadians for training. Space Marines will slaughter these guys.
Yes, the space marines arn't invincible but the Clone Troopers would need to bring anti-tank weapons to bear to have even a chance of taking them down quickly.
This is from Wikipedia:
An electromagnetic pulse (sometimes abbreviated EMP) is a burst of electromagnetic radiation. The abrupt pulse of electromagnetic radiation usually results from certain types of high energy explosions, especially a nuclear explosion, or from a suddenly fluctuating magnetic field. The resulting rapidly-changing electric fields and magnetic fields may couple with electrical/electronic systems to produce damaging current and voltage surges.
In military terminology, a nuclear warhead detonated hundreds of kilometers above the Earth's surface is known as a high-altitude electromagnetic pulse (HEMP) device. Effects of a HEMP device depend on a very large number of factors, including the altitude of the detonation, energy yield, gamma ray output, interactions with the Earth's magnetic field, and electromagnetic shielding of targets.
The electromagnetic shielding part is the true thing... are they designed to take it?
You want anti-tank? Okay, what about...
TX-130 Saber-class fighter tank
All Terrain Tactical Enforcer (AT-TE)
All Terrain Attack Pod (AT-AP)
Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry
That should cover that one... If you're wanting Anti-tank, then that allows for the whole GAR to be used. I'd like to see SM with Power Armour survive being trampled on by a several tonne heavily armoured walker...
Also, Clone Trooper blasters can do a rapid fire, and and you'd have the air filled with blaster bolts. Probably from a DC-15A blaster rifle, which packs a nasty wallop.
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Hunterindarkness wrote:
How in the name of the Emperor did this become 40k vs SW? Anyhow On the shoulder pads, yeah guys I find them to freaking big, you can keep comparing them to knights armor, but a 14th century knights armor' shoulders were not the size of shields and did not cover him from neck to elbow. Even a reduction of about 30% would do worlds of good.
RAVEN 97 wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.
I like the shoulder pads, but that would make good amour for an alternative unit like a new unit
I myself Like the shoulder pads as well, the things has some flaws, its to busy for 40k for one and why in Gods name is the top of his head exposed? Over all I find it a good base for an armor type.
I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.
I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.
An AT-AP has fairly thin armor. Bolters will be able to snipe the driver without too much difficulty or will just be able to damage the vehicle itself.
the AT-TE is really slow. It isn't like a 40k walker that can step on enemies deliberatly. A Space Marine would use stealth to sneak in close and then run up and lob a few Krak grenades into its weak spots, or he would just rip a hatch open and climb inside. its one turret is manned by an exposed gunner and it has no other weapons capable of covering its flanks.
Marines bring anti-tank weapons themselves so it isn't like an enemy tank is going to phase them. I'd like to see the reactions of Clones when a Meltagun vaporizes their TX-130. Its so small that the entire vehicle would get slagged, not just crippled. the same goes for the AT-TE.
the AT-TE is more of a long ranged artillery platform designed to engage enemy vehicles at a distance and function as a mobile command base. and Anti-tank weapons still need to be used against the target. because Marines use cover the anti-tank weapons will have some difficulty in being brought to bear.
Thats why Marines are so effective. The armor of a tank combined with the mobility of an infantry soldier, who just happens to be a genetically modified super-soldier.
We also can't have this discussion without having the IG involved. The Space Marines will be conducting lightining raids on the republic's supply lines and eliminating their commanders while the IG engages the Republics military from the front.
LRBTs have tougher armor then a TX-130 and sport more weapons viable against a wide range of targets. Not to mention the IG attacks with thousands of tanks and millions of Guardsmen at a time.
The Republic has nothing equivilant to Titans and the Imperial Navy will prevent the Republic from having air-superiority.
I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.
I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.
I never said that Armor should replace the SM, I said I found it interesting. It is a bit to busy for the SM look, You would have to smooth it down. It was mostly shown for the Shoulders really, they looks effective without being overly huge. It has a profile, not unlike that of a SM, after all.
Grey Templar wrote:An AT-AP has fairly thin armor. Bolters will be able to snipe the driver without too much difficulty or will just be able to damage the vehicle itself.
the AT-TE is really slow. It isn't like a 40k walker that can step on enemies deliberatly. A Space Marine would use stealth to sneak in close and then run up and lob a few Krak grenades into its weak spots, or he would just rip a hatch open and climb inside. its one turret is manned by an exposed gunner and it has no other weapons capable of covering its flanks.
Marines bring anti-tank weapons themselves so it isn't like an enemy tank is going to phase them. I'd like to see the reactions of Clones when a Meltagun vaporizes their TX-130. Its so small that the entire vehicle would get slagged, not just crippled. the same goes for the AT-TE.
the AT-TE is more of a long ranged artillery platform designed to engage enemy vehicles at a distance and function as a mobile command base. and Anti-tank weapons still need to be used against the target. because Marines use cover the anti-tank weapons will have some difficulty in being brought to bear.
Thats why Marines are so effective. The armor of a tank combined with the mobility of an infantry soldier, who just happens to be a genetically modified super-soldier.
We also can't have this discussion without having the IG involved. The Space Marines will be conducting lightining raids on the republic's supply lines and eliminating their commanders while the IG engages the Republics military from the front.
LRBTs have tougher armor then a TX-130 and sport more weapons viable against a wide range of targets. Not to mention the IG attacks with thousands of tanks and millions of Guardsmen at a time.
The Republic has nothing equivilant to Titans and the Imperial Navy will prevent the Republic from having air-superiority.
anyway, way off topic.
Yeah... which is why DE Splinter weaponry can own Marines. There's an amusing thread on it I'm following.
The commanders were Jedi. I think they'd feel in the Force if a SM was about to sneak up and attack them. Force Push and Lightsabre. I'd also love to see an SM get the drop on Mace Windu, or Yoda, for that matter. And you never commented on the Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry, suggesting a lack of answer for it. Since they had Y-Wings available, just launch Proton Torpedoes at a distance at the site. See how the IG can cope then. Mind you, there is also the Venator Star Destroyer able to be in Atmosphere. Planetary assault would be my straight off tactic after talking to you. Flatten the planet, and then move in with troops.
Dresden the battlefield, then move in on survivors. Not to mention develop acid canisters to eat the metal of the armour the SM are wearing... Acid grenades. Like to see the Miracle armour cope with that...
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Hunterindarkness wrote:
Cameron Baum wrote:
I know... How did this happen... Because I made a mention about Clone Troopers, people Said outright SM were better, I'm arguing otherwise. It's getting a little surreal, but there we go... SM lovers out there love their shoulder pads, and their unstoppable death machines, not realising that once they started throwing down the gauntlet for Anti Tank, it gets to be no contest. Particularly when you've got a half dozen Republic Gunships in the air.
I think the armour you're talking about would serve better forTau than SM, to be fair. Has a better ring with them.
I never said that Armor should replace the SM, I said I found it interesting. It is a bit to busy for the SM look, You would have to smooth it down. It was mostly shown for the Shoulders really, they looks effective without being overly huge. It has a profile, not unlike that of a SM, after all.
I agree. The shoulder pads were a lot better. And smoothed down... Yeah, I'll go with that.
I always found alot of the apparent 'awkwardness' of space marine armour isn't so much the pauldrons but how bulky it looks because the plates and such are always drawn thick. I mean hell the pauldrons alone in som eartwork look at least a good 3-4 inches thick, and even the leg and shin armor can usually be 2-3 inches thick subjectively. Thin it down some and it might not look so awkward.
I dont know if its just the artwork or appearance, but Forge World depictions of Marines in some cases (like the Raptors in Taros) always looked 'slimmer' to me.
Connor MacLeod wrote:I always found alot of the apparent 'awkwardness' of space marine armour isn't so much the pauldrons but how bulky it looks because the plates and such are always drawn thick. I mean hell the pauldrons alone in som eartwork look at least a good 3-4 inches thick, and even the leg and shin armor can usually be 2-3 inches thick subjectively. Thin it down some and it might not look so awkward.
I dont know if its just the artwork or appearance, but Forge World depictions of Marines in some cases (like the Raptors in Taros) always looked 'slimmer' to me.
Agreed. The whole thing looks ungainly and poorly thought out. People should know my preferences by now, so I'm not repeating it.
The thing is those shoulder pads on the drawing are good enough to cove the shoulder....that is all. The marine shoulder pads cover far more. They provide additional protection to the neck, head, and body. In a kneeling pose a marine can basically hide behind the left shoulder pad and shin guard, effectively doubling his armor. Its the whole reason older marks had the reinforcement studs only on the left side.
You issues with the shoulders are purely aesthetic as the design makes sense based on fluff and partially in reality. If you look at the typical body armor worn today it only cover the top of the head and chest, and abdomen, really just the vitals. Great it someone is shooting at you and you are facing them. Now turn your body into a standard two armed shooting pose.....You are not really protected at all. Now I have seen where the military is testing ..........Giant shoulder pads that protect the flanks. The theory is that normally one of your shoulders is facing the enemy.
I love how the drawing has so much armor and yet the top of the head is completely exposed. I mean what kind of guy runs around in full armor without head protection, must be some kind of idiot, i mean you'd never see a space marine......well.....wait....ummm. Nevermind
Cameron Baum wrote:Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.
Oh really? Sir Francis Drake, whom the Spanish called a pirate, in armour;
I don't know why people would ever reference Deadliest Warrior. It's so idiotic it's hilarious to watch. I mean, seriously, the GIGN-9 team don't spot the SWAT team when they're silhouetted against the sky above them? And they group up into a tight group behind a chain-link fence making themselves a huge target? Or the Samurai vs. Vikingr where the Vikingr doesn't even use his shield to a) protect himself from the arrows or b) in conjunction with his other weapons (which is what it's there for). Or Joan of Arc giving the most ridiculous 'killing blow' to William of Normandy, a hit where the flat slapped against his back and would have done nothing. Or the Mongolians vs. Musketeers where the triple barrelled cannon gets 3 kills? Seriously? Those things, as tested a few years ago by a museum in America, showed they couldn't hit anything at spitting distance. The Celt one was just pure comedy. Fortunately I've never watched the pirate one but I know it will be terrible. Those things are horrible distortions of the truth and should never be even considered as tertiary evidence or even historical evidence of any kind.
/rant over.
The thing about power armours thickness is that visually it enhances the bulky, walking bunker look of Astartes. It also underlines the extra protection ceramite power armour grants. Stormtroopers & Kasrkin wear carapace armour formed from ceramite or armaplas plates which on a human look big and bulky but they have to be large and thick to give necessary protection. Marine armour is enough tougher so it makes sense that it will be a lot thicker. As Astartes have the strength to carry that thick ceramite armour as though it were a second skin, it's additional thickness & weight makes sense. A full suit of ceramite power armour weighs in at over 200lbs (lightest was Mk IV at 190lbs - source: FFG Deathwatch rulebook). That's just a bit more than I weigh for a full Mk IV suit. So if a Marine can wander round quite happily wearing that as if it were a cotton t-shirt then the thicker = the greater protection = the better.
Cameron Baum wrote:Again, it is the reference to the Knight against the Pirate. The Pirate won. And pirates had no armour.
Oh really? Sir Francis Drake, whom the Spanish called a pirate, in armour;
I don't know why people would ever reference Deadliest Warrior. It's so idiotic it's hilarious to watch. I mean, seriously, the GIGN-9 team don't spot the SWAT team when they're silhouetted against the sky above them? And they group up into a tight group behind a chain-link fence making themselves a huge target? Or the Samurai vs. Vikingr where the Vikingr doesn't even use his shield to a) protect himself from the arrows or b) in conjunction with his other weapons (which is what it's there for). Or Joan of Arc giving the most ridiculous 'killing blow' to William of Normandy, a hit where the flat slapped against his back and would have done nothing. Or the Mongolians vs. Musketeers where the triple barrelled cannon gets 3 kills? Seriously? Those things, as tested a few years ago by a museum in America, showed they couldn't hit anything at spitting distance. The Celt one was just pure comedy. Fortunately I've never watched the pirate one but I know it will be terrible. Those things are horrible distortions of the truth and should never be even considered as tertiary evidence or even historical evidence of any kind.
/rant over.
The thing about power armours thickness is that visually it enhances the bulky, walking bunker look of Astartes. It also underlines the extra protection ceramite power armour grants. Stormtroopers & Kasrkin wear carapace armour formed from ceramite or armaplas plates which on a human look big and bulky but they have to be large and thick to give necessary protection. Marine armour is enough tougher so it makes sense that it will be a lot thicker. As Astartes have the strength to carry that thick ceramite armour as though it were a second skin, it's additional thickness & weight makes sense. A full suit of ceramite power armour weighs in at over 200lbs (lightest was Mk IV at 190lbs - source: FFG Deathwatch rulebook). That's just a bit more than I weigh for a full Mk IV suit. So if a Marine can wander round quite happily wearing that as if it were a cotton t-shirt then the thicker = the greater protection = the better.
The end fight is a drama, concocted from the computer simulation results. It isn't the basis of the show, it is the testing of the weapons. Seeing a katana slice though sides of animal is a distortion of truth? Looking at how they got their empirical evidence, I feel it is solid. Else I wouldn't be using it. And the samurai helmet showed an elegant protective design, by being curved in such a way to deflect blows. As for American museums... let's not go there. If the weapon was that useless, it would have been abandoned or superceeded. But, if it'll make you happy, I'll change the comparison to Kabalite Warrior and SM. Same agility, Splinter weaponry, and has light armour to boot. No, I forgot... the SM would be slow moving, and the Kabalite is Eldar, so moves faster anyway.
As for the walking bunker idea... build a bomb proof bunker, someone will build a better bomb. A walking tank is, ultimately laughable. But then, I've long since stopped laughing at the sheer metabolic requirements an SM would have. Oh dear, I've started again... The idea is completely ridiculous to me, sorry. 7 feet guys are not going to be able to be effective on the field, no matter how much genetic manipulation they've had, or how much armour they are wearing. The bigger they are, the easier the target to hit... And I'd be likely to be hitting them happily with caustic chemicals, to melt the armour. There's no such thing as an undefeatable enemy, and the SM have weaknesses to exploit.
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Andrew1975 wrote:Well the greatest enemy of the space marines would be wooden walk ways.
"Where did the heretics go"?
"They crossed that chasm using those wooden planks."
"GO after them"
"Johnson tried sir, the boards wont support 600 pounds"
"Cheeky Bastards"
Could you imagine the comedy of marines walking through ruined buildings.
"I don't know sir, those stairs look rickety"
If super armour is so great, why isn't it still in use today? Why don't we have modern soldiers head to toe in the 21st Century equivalent to SM armour?
Because armour is heavy, and clunky. No matter how many servos it has.
Cameron Baum wrote:Seeing a katana slice though sides of animal is a distortion of truth? Looking at how they got their empirical evidence, I feel it is solid. Else I wouldn't be using it. And the samurai helmet showed an elegant protective design, by being curved in such a way to deflect blows.
Katana's are not bad for cutting through flesh. Because of the gentle curve it places the full force of the strike in to the part of the blade that makes contact. Good start. Bad areas are that the blades are very thick, they were made by average smiths as a side-arm for the peasantry - a cheap weapon which was carried as a side-arm but not a serious weapon. Because of the thickness of the blade, and its considered lack of evolution, compared to European blades, it's actually a really naff weapon. Admittedly it's a lump of metal you can hit people with - that's the whole point. When they have armour then it becomes a whole different kettle of fish. If you look at the edges of a German Longsword circa c14/c15, the edges are rather slender which would allow it to slice through maille with a good stroke whereas a period katana would just bounce off (leaving a lot of bruising but unbroken armour). There are a couple of cracking videos about that display how brilliant the longsword is yet Japan's superbly handled sale of it's culture to the West has given people the impression that the katana is amazing.
As for American museums... let's not go there.
Why not? They took an actual period weapon & tested it, checked to see how good/bad it was and the results were that it was awful.
As for the walking bunker idea... build a bomb proof bunker, someone will build a better bomb. A walking tank is, ultimately laughable. But then, I've long since stopped laughing at the sheer metabolic requirements an SM would have. Oh dear, I've started again... The idea is completely ridiculous to me, sorry. 7 feet guys are not going to be able to be effective on the field, no matter how much genetic manipulation they've had, or how much armour they are wearing. The bigger they are, the easier the target to hit... And I'd be likely to be hitting them happily with caustic chemicals, to melt the armour. There's no such thing as an undefeatable enemy, and the SM have weaknesses to exploit.
But within the 40k universe not many handheld weapons -can- penetrate that walking bunker. It's one of the reason why Astartes have used power armour since the Mk I 'Thunder'. The protective qualities are just too good to not use. As for their height & bulk, yes they're a bit easier to hit at close range but their armour protects them. That enormous height, reach & strength advantage makes them as deadly as some of the races out there - they're as fast as Eldar & as good with ranged & melee weapons, they think & react quicker than regular humans, have excellent hand-to-eye co-ordination, are ambidextrous, can handle even the heaviest portable weapons without much issue. They also have no fear.
Space Marines aren't really meant to be a part of stand-up battles - they drop in near vital targets and carve a path to their objective, complete it and withdraw. It's the Guard who are there to fight the pitched battles whilst the Marines do their thing.
And everyone has their weaknesses; Eldar have inferior armour & are only as strong & tough as regular Guardsmen, Orks can't hit for toffee and are not as strong as Astartes, Tau are horrendous in melee but not bad at shooting their super-laser type weapons - of course everyone has a weakness that can be exploited, but as Tom Holt once wrote, it's best to attack an enemy through their strength - strengths are taken for granted, weaknesses are carefully guarded.
If super armour is so great, why isn't it still in use today? Why don't we have modern soldiers head to toe in the 21st Century equivalent to SM armour?
Because armour is heavy, and clunky. No matter how many servos it has.
Because regular humans aren't 7'+ tall superhumans who can crush a mans head in his hand as though it were a fresh hens egg and that's before they put their armour on. Armour is making it's come back, as it goes, with police forces & militaries around the world testing out new technologies & designs to increase protection. For example a British group of scientists are working on a gel that hardens to a consistancy stronger than concrete when struck - a 5.54mm bullet isn't going to go through it. Armour went out the window because the technology at the time couldn't sustain the credibility of wearing armour - musketeers in c17 were far more manouverable & moved quicker than the more cumbersome armour clad pike blocks. Now technology is moving towards being able to provide decent defence that's light & comfortable enough to move around in I doubt it will be long before soldiers will be wearing far more protective armour.
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
I find your lack of human physiology and kinesiology disturbing.
Going to set up a test for you. Tuck your elbows to your body. Now, curl your forearms to form a 35 degree (or so) angle. Rotate your arms straight upward. Notice where your hands end up placed. Then tell me how the shoulderpads would prevent a Marine from taking his helmet off. You do realize that the shoulder pads are attached to the Space Marine's arms, and not to his chest, and will move with the rotation of the arms. There are certain range of motion limitations a Space Marine would encounter with his arms due to the shoulder pads. Removing his helmet would not be one of them.
The idea that medieval armour makes you slow is wrong and probably derived from tournament armour, which was indeed quite heavy.
Most suits of medieval plate weight about 20-30kg ( not more than a modern soldier has to carry ), distributed among the wearer's entire body.
A knight in such armour was both very well protected ( there is a reason why swords, with the exception of very thin and narrow ones, became less and less useful ) and still mobile enough to run, jump, mount his horse or grapple. The enclosed helmet limited the field of vision but given the vulnerability of the head in medieval warfare this was an acceptable tradeoff.
I see no reason why powerarmour shouldn't offer similar advantages, especialy with the advanced technologies used.
I am not a mouth breather and I resent that accusation.
Furthermore, what makes 40k unique is that it's grimdark. Everything else it's stolen. Power armor is from Starship Troopers. So are Tyranids (though from a different name). Chaos is from Michael Moorcock. Titans are from Battle Tech/Mech Warrior. I could go on and on. If we took away the grimdark, 40k wouldn't have anything to make it unique (besides it's ludicrous cost).
Andrew1975 wrote:
You issues with the shoulders are purely aesthetic as the design makes sense based on fluff and partially in reality. If you look at the typical body armor worn today it only cover the top of the head and chest, and abdomen, really just the vitals. Great it someone is shooting at you and you are facing them. Now turn your body into a standard two armed shooting pose.....You are not really protected at all. Now I have seen where the military is testing ..........Giant shoulder pads that protect the flanks. The theory is that normally one of your shoulders is facing the enemy.
I love how the drawing has so much armor and yet the top of the head is completely exposed. I mean what kind of guy runs around in full armor without head protection, must be some kind of idiot, i mean you'd never see a space marine......well.....wait....ummm. Nevermind
Man the only reason those shoulder pads are that big is...wait for it....Aesthetics. That's right they are that size because it give you a nice big area to place unit logos and such on. No other reason. There is no reason, fluff or otherwise to limit movemnt and leave such a large surface like that. It is a hindrance more then a help. You can easily armor the area just as well in other ways.
As for the other pic..yeah that confused me as well. Armored like a tank, but lets just go ahead and not armor the top of the head...yeah great call right there.
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
Is it ruined? Having just looked carefully at all of the films, they do, admittedly, make sense. Particularly when you include EpIII scenes and stuff in the mix. TBH, the New Jedi Order period, with the Yuuzhan Vong War is my favourite time in it, mostly because you had no idea is they would survive, let alone win... Lucas is good at writing, good at producing, bad at directing. There is a lot missing in the films that you need to read the novels for to get a better understanding. Especially EpII.
Be glad I haven't done a comparison against the Sardaukar then... because I doubt there would be much contest.
SM smack of a rip-off of them any way. But then, there are a lot of amusing similarities to SF and other Genre stuff in 40K.
I'd comment more on SM armour, but I have to do it later.
Andrew1975 wrote:
You issues with the shoulders are purely aesthetic as the design makes sense based on fluff and partially in reality. If you look at the typical body armor worn today it only cover the top of the head and chest, and abdomen, really just the vitals. Great it someone is shooting at you and you are facing them. Now turn your body into a standard two armed shooting pose.....You are not really protected at all. Now I have seen where the military is testing ..........Giant shoulder pads that protect the flanks. The theory is that normally one of your shoulders is facing the enemy.
I love how the drawing has so much armor and yet the top of the head is completely exposed. I mean what kind of guy runs around in full armor without head protection, must be some kind of idiot, i mean you'd never see a space marine......well.....wait....ummm. Nevermind
Man the only reason those shoulder pads are that big is...wait for it....Aesthetics. That's right they are that size because it give you a nice big area to place unit logos and such on. No other reason. There is no reason, fluff or otherwise to limit movemnt and leave such a large surface like that. It is a hindrance more then a help. You can easily armor the area just as well in other ways.
As for the other pic..yeah that confused me as well. Armored like a tank, but lets just go ahead and not armor the top of the head...yeah great call right there.
Here is the problem you are not seeing, Its not limiting, they have full range of movement. If it was pure asthetics why doesnt everyone have giant shoulder pads ala Warzone. Now those were shoulder pads, and most were useless.
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
Is it ruined? Having just looked carefully at all of the films, they do, admittedly, make sense. Particularly when you include EpIII scenes and stuff in the mix. TBH, the New Jedi Order period, with the Yuuzhan Vong War is my favourite time in it, mostly because you had no idea is they would survive, let alone win... Lucas is good at writing, good at producing, bad at directing. There is a lot missing in the films that you need to read the novels for to get a better understanding. Especially EpII.
Be glad I haven't done a comparison against the Sardaukar then... because I doubt there would be much contest.
SM smack of a rip-off of them any way. But then, there are a lot of amusing similarities to SF and other Genre stuff in 40K.
I'd comment more on SM armour, but I have to do it later.
You should watch the RedLetterMedia reviews on the Star Wars Prequels. They'll change yer mind; they changed mine.
Here is the problem you are not seeing, Its not limiting, they have full range of movement. If it was pure asthetics why doesnt everyone have giant shoulder pads ala Warzone. Now those were shoulder pads, and most were useless.
And here is what you are not getting man, It can not move that way. It may be places and glued in that position but it could never rotate in that manor. It simply would not work. You are free to think they would, just as I am free to call BS on it.
The only thing wrong with Space marine Pauldrons are the stupid right angles at the bottom. Medieval armor plates are rounded for a reason, so that the limb moving back and forth under them doesn't catch on the armor. Having your arm bent up at the elbow past 90 degrees and then moving it along the bottom of the pad would be a real pain as it catches on the corner.
And here is what you are not getting man, It can not move that way. It may be places and glued in that position but it could never rotate in that manor. It simply would not work. You are free to think they would, just as I am free to call BS on it.
I don't know why not, as long as they are attached to the shoulder, rather than above the collarbone like Medieval armor. Then it would just rotate back in the opposite direction of the arm (if you are lifting an arm it to point straight ahead.)
Sure, SM armor is a bit too big and over-heroic sized I'll give you that, but pauldrons like the ones below are way huge on a normal sized person and still really aren't limiting at all, even when wielding two-handed weapons, and certainly not impeding in taking a helmet off. The thing with them, like Space marine armor, is that when you cross you arms over your chest, they simply come out from under the pauldrons. You can scratch your nose and the shoulder will barely even move, just hang there.
Sigh...Where is the power pack? SM, Unlike Knights, have this here massive backpack. Also both examples you just shown are only half as long down the arm as the Sm Pads.
They are simply smaller and do not have a back restriction then the same proportion on the SM armor. Number 1 would never work with a Sm (even if it is smaller then what they have now) because of the Power pack. Number two is a good size however
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Maybe bomb disposal marines, Or hazardous work marines.
I'm fairly certain that any 'bomb' or 'hazardous material' that a Marine's suit couldn't handle on it's own would need something with an actual armor value to handle.
I like the first one more because it is bulkier and that is kinda like the SM theme is a big bulky model that will club you to death. I like how it is smooth but with sharp angles it is really clean. That being said I think the models will stay the way they are because I believe that will be a little to complex to mold into plastic.
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Maybe bomb disposal marines, Or hazardous work marines.
I'm fairly certain that any 'bomb' or 'hazardous material' that a Marine's suit couldn't handle on it's own would need something with an actual armor value to handle.
Wasn't terminator armor originally based on plasma engine maintenance suits? Yeah you don't get much more hard core than that.
The first thing I said when I first saw a Space Marine was "What the hell is with that goofy-ass armor? Am I supposed to take these guys seriously or is this one of those dopey games for young children?"... And that was back at the dawn of 2nd Ed. Sadly, nothing has changed. Since then, every race has had significant and vast improvements in the way of armor design, except Space Marines.
Changing Space Marine armor would indeed change the game... Just like changing Dark Eldar armor changed the game. I don't understand what the hold-up is.
DiRTWaL wrote:I like the first one more because it is bulkier and that is kinda like the SM theme is a big bulky model that will club you to death. I like how it is smooth but with sharp angles it is really clean. That being said I think the models will stay the way they are because I believe that will be a little to complex to mold into plastic.
First off thank you for commenting on the topic. I do not think they will change, that was not the point of the thread. The point was if "you" could change them how would you do so. And trust me man, they could so make it in plastic, have you seen what they do for other units? Or what other games mold? The designs are not to complex by a mile.
I like the armour the way it is spank you very much, leave your Master Chief and Vanquish armour wannabe sorts in their own dimensions please.
If anything Pauldrons are not large enough, they should be big enough to contain the Space Marines pack lunch, diary, an innocent bystander should they be at risk and be fully removable so that the Space Marine can use them as a house if they are expecting to it rain.
Although I believe they could rework some aspects of the appearance of Space Marines, it would have to be a gradual process that would have to always at least stick to the core concepts of the Space Marine design (ie, walking tank).
That said, some changes would certainly be welcomed if they were well implemented. For example, making Terminator armour look like it was physically possible to wear would be a start.
Hunterindarkness wrote:As they are the size of caddy trunks, I think they are a large enough.
If they were larger, and had wheels, they could replace Rhinos - actually they could call them Turtles
I am pretty sure they are big enough now to roll into a giant armored ball.
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Fafnir wrote:Although I believe they could rework some aspects of the appearance of Space Marines, it would have to be a gradual process that would have to always at least stick to the core concepts of the Space Marine design (ie, walking tank).
That said, some changes would certainly be welcomed if they were well implemented. For example, making Terminator armour look like it was physically possible to wear would be a start.
Two Space Marines combine to form a football for Warhound Titans.
Epic
So that is why the feaking pads are so big! The secret is out!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a new one I found. The image is a bit to busy in places and is a robot(see knees and lower torso) but, I like it and think it has pretty good shoulder pads. Over all I posted it as it has a very SM look
Two Space Marines combine to form a football for Warhound Titans.
Epic
So that is why the feaking pads are so big! The secret is out!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a new one I found. The image is a bit to busy in places and is a robot(see knees and lower torso) but, I like it and think it has pretty good shoulder pads. Over all I posted it as it has a very SM look
Nice Bioroid
And look how bulky the actual arm armor has to be because he does not have shoulder pads that he can use to. Again the giant shoulder pads are like the glasius plates on a tank, super heavily armored in the places most likely to get hit while letting the rest have less armor saves weight over all.
The arm armor in the one I posted is no larger the the SM armor, he simply lacks the massive pads( although his are not small ) the neck then yeah, but if you look that is because of the neck/back armor not shoulder armor.
his forearms are massive and even his arms are thicker compared to a marines. They need to be to offer protection. The problem is he appears to have the same level of protection everywhere, instead of thinner in some areas and heavier where it counts.
Eh his forearms are smaller then some shown on the SM armors( Go back and look at some of the Images on page One and two). His upper arms are no thicker either. The only real diffidence is he lacks the over large, binding shields on his shoulders. Those things do not add protection, they are there to have big honking unit insignia promptly displayed and nothing more. They are silly and hurt far more then they would help. You can disagree, but I will not see them as anything more then a needless bit of silly that harms the look far more then it could ever help.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The arm armor in the one I posted is no larger the the SM armor, he simply lacks the massive pads( although his are not small ) the neck then yeah, but if you look that is because of the neck/back armor not shoulder armor.
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I simply had to do this.
This armour strike me as 40k Space Marine power armour in a universe without the Horus Heresy.
Warmaster Horus leads his Sons of Horus clad in the new MKXXIII against the Eldar remnants or some other Iterator propaganda
Crazyterran wrote:When I saw that armor above, I thought "Starcraft Marine!" not "Warhammer Space Marine!"
Eh it does not look like SCM at all, the shoulders, the chest, the helmet, non of those look anything like what is posted above. The only thing the armor I posted above is missing is a few more decorations( sorry couldn't do em in paint) and the silly shoulder pads.
Could you point out what Iconic SM thing it is missing? Other then the shoulder pads?
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Voodoo_Chile wrote:
This armour strike me as 40k Space Marine power armour in a universe without the Horus Heresy.
Warmaster Horus leads his Sons of Horus clad in the new MKXXIII against the Eldar remnants or some other Iterator propaganda
Glad I was not the only one who thought it looks 40kish.
Sovereign6 wrote:How anyone could knock Warhammer 40k armor and like Starcraft armor is hilarious They REALLY can't see to their sides!
Anyway, the pictures legs are what make it feel very Terran dominion-esc.
I'll give you that, the legs are very much alike, not that I mind its the top half that goes to hell on the TM anyhow. The Legs to me feel right, they have a good look and a good heft. They look like something not only that would allow you to pivot and move, but the feet are made in such a way you could bring traction and weight on different parts. I see them as a very functional look. To me the Bulk, purity seals, banners, crests and Helmet are the 40kSM. Those to me are the Iconic parts. And skulls...gots to have skulls..when in doubt put a skull on it.
It looks too bulky, sure the current armour is bulky but it's... the wrong kind of bulky?
SM armour is huge because marines are huge, other than the shoulders and the legs of some marks it really isn't that thick, the marines inside are just that big, that armour is huge but its designed for a regular human, resizing it so a marine would fit would make it bigger than terminator armour. Plus I don't understand why it has such huge vambraces/thighs/feet and yet it has an exposed stomach.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The armor is not totally awful..but yeah those shoulder pads have to go. I would love to see it just once without those damned shoulder pads.
This one has an interesting vibe
Nooo! Not the pauldrons! Anything but our beloved, chunky pauldrons! What're we going to mount our skulls on now?!
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
Is it ruined? Having just looked carefully at all of the films, they do, admittedly, make sense
The might make sense. I've really never analyzed them.
They do however, completely suck, at every level, lol. Terrible, terrible films. The universe is ruined by continuity errors in the license material, but that's irrelevant The only part of it that remains relevant are the films, and they are so bad that you wonder how Lucas managed to even participate in cinematic classics like the first three films, or Indiana Jones, etc.
Phantom Menace, and the two tragedies that followed it, are almost textbook examples of how not to make films. George Lucas was never a masterful director (it is no secret that the undisputed best of the six Star Wars films (Empire) is the only one George Lucas didn't write and didn't direct, and ironically, reportedly his least favorite, lol). However, when he made the prequels, he surrounded himself with "Yes Men" who simply went with every moronic, outlandish thing he came up with. He is such a bad director that he took skilled, respected actors like Samuel Jackson and Natalie Portman and coaxed out of them the worst performances of their careers. Though, in their defense, Helen Mirren or Marlon Brando would probably seem fake and wooden under Lucas's directing hand.
LoneLictor mentioned RedLetterMedia;'s reviews. They are a great. Very funny, but also made by a guy who really knows his stuff when it comes to story telling and movie making.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The only real diffidence is he lacks the over large, binding shields on his shoulders. Those things do not add protection, they are there to have big honking unit insignia promptly displayed and nothing more.
So 3" of armour, for example, is now better than 3" + 3" = 6"? The shoulder pads in no way inhibit the Astartes movement but they do double up the amount of armour covering the arm & ribs, as well as providing additional protection for the shoulder joint (generally a weak point in armour). Their large curving shape will also help to deflect projectiles without endangering the arm to potential blunt trauma damage* - whilst power armour has many various bits that will help cushion the impact of weapons & projectiles, as well as the toughness of the Marine's body to help, surely severely lessening the chance of damage is better than not?
The shoulder pad is essentially the marine bringing his own cover with him.
he can kneel down and present his side to the enemy. that results in his pauldron protecting the bulk of his most vulnerable part(his helmet) and he can just peek around it, not that he needs to with his autosenses.
And if there is actual cover he can be even better protected.
the weight and it getting in the way are solved by the powered nature of the armor and the black carapace. Marines are actually faster and stronger in their armor then they are out of it because the servos increase their strength and reaction times.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The only real diffidence is he lacks the over large, binding shields on his shoulders. Those things do not add protection, they are there to have big honking unit insignia promptly displayed and nothing more.
So 3" of armour, for example, is now better than 3" + 3" = 6"? The shoulder pads in no way inhibit the Astartes movement but they do double up the amount of armour covering the arm & ribs, as well as providing additional protection for the shoulder joint (generally a weak point in armour). Their large curving shape will also help to deflect projectiles without endangering the arm to potential blunt trauma damage* - whilst power armour has many various bits that will help cushion the impact of weapons & projectiles, as well as the toughness of the Marine's body to help, surely severely lessening the chance of damage is better than not?
Lets not forget that Astartes are fearless guys, and they have been known to charge into battle with utmost vigor. Judging by the armour you propose, the marine's shoulder joints and neck will be on full show, key points to attack if you wanted to incapacitate an enemy. With the pauldrons, and a little momentum, the Astartes becomes a nigh inpenatrable battering ram, important joints and neck will be covered and relatively safe. Just imagine a Khornate Bezerker in full charge at a non-pauldron'd warrior, and the situation begins to stack.
I don't know where all the shoulder pad hatred comes from, they are iconic.
The robot armor is awesome but it's not 40k.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i find it difficult to believe people are using the result of "worlds deadliest warrior" as sceintific explanations of anything. The very basis of that program is complete bull crap
Hunterindarkness wrote:Here is a fun one I ran across, The armor is...umm to skinny and odd but I think the shoulder pads are a much better size.
This one would be cool for the sisters of battle. But this type is too fragile looking compaired to the current mk VIII. The others are too angular and smooth looking. They lack that gothicesk look that makes 40k. Power armor of 40k is meant to look almost ancient. Because in the era that we play the game. It is. It adds character to the game that the galaxy is so vastly old and the heros who fight use those ancient suits are made that much nobler. And that each suit of armor is just as revered if not more so then the Astartes who wears is. Like in olden times when family swords and armor were passed from one to the next and the wepons and armor took on a sense of strength and honor all their own. The power armor of the Astartes is identifiable for the game and gives the game its feel. That, even though the game takes place is the future it has the feel of something midevel.
Grey Templar wrote:
he can kneel down and present his side to the enemy. that results in his pauldron protecting the bulk of his most vulnerable part(his helmet) and he can just peek around it, not that he needs to with his autosenses.
A lot of people miss this point. A marine's shoulder pad does not impede his vision. Autosenses provide him with a full array of all sensory information greater than as if he were unarmored. When a marine looks to his side, he can see through his shoulder pad.
SpankHammer III wrote:I don't know where all the shoulder pad hatred comes from, they are iconic.
The robot armor is awesome but it's not 40k.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i find it difficult to believe people are using the result of "worlds deadliest warrior" as sceintific explanations of anything. The very basis of that program is complete bull crap
They may be Iconic, but they are gods awful and need to go (IMO) They mask, the colors, the symbols and such are much more Space marine then the shoulder pads. You could make them smaller or lose them and it would change nothing.
Oh and I so agree about deadliest warrior , the show is a fun waste ol time to watch em hit pigs with weapons or something, but is in no way ever scientific in any way.
Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:
This one would be cool for the sisters of battle. But this type is too fragile looking compaired to the current mk VIII.
I agree it is a bit silly, but was intresting, far two thin and has boobs, but I found the shoulderpads a better proportion then what is currently used.
See I do not care a whole lot for the IoM's aesthetics all told, SM armor is suppose to be so advanced it can not be easily made, most is repaired and little understood. However it does not look it, it looks like clunky knock-off armor made by folks who could no longer find or maintain the good old style tech armor. It does not look like something churned out off a pattern of an STC from the very height of human technology. It looks like junk they use because they could not get anything better., base Guard armor often looks more technical and advanced then SM armor.
That is the issue I have, it simply does not fit the fluff in any way.
SpankHammer III wrote:I don't know where all the shoulder pad hatred comes from, they are iconic.
The robot armor is awesome but it's not 40k.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i find it difficult to believe people are using the result of "worlds deadliest warrior" as sceintific explanations of anything. The very basis of that program is complete bull crap
They may be Iconic, but they are gods awful and need to go (IMO) They mask, the colors, the symbols and such are much more Space marine then the shoulder pads. You could make them smaller or lose them and it would change nothing.
Oh and I so agree about deadliest warrior , the show is a fun waste ol time to watch em hit pigs with weapons or something, but is in no way ever scientific in any way.
Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:
This one would be cool for the sisters of battle. But this type is too fragile looking compaired to the current mk VIII.
I agree it is a bit silly, but was intresting, far two thin and has boobs, but I found the shoulderpads a better proportion then what is currently used.
See I do not care a whole lot for the IoM's aesthetics all told, SM armor is suppose to be so advanced it can not be easily made, most is repaired and little understood. However it does not look it, it looks like clunky knock-off armor made by folks who could no longer find or maintain the good old style tech armor. It does not look like something churned out off a pattern of an STC from the very height of human technology. It looks like junk they use because they could not get anything better., base Guard armor often looks more technical and advanced then SM armor.
That is the issue I have, it simply does not fit the fluff in any way.
I'm going to say, first of all, some people in here have no idea how pauldrons work, going so far as to ignore the guy who has actually WORN knight's armor. Pauldrons on the models may be exaggerated, but so is everything else, it's "heroic" scale. Nothing about anyone's proportions make sense. See the picture posted earlier of the guy in power armor at E3 or wherever that was, proportioned to fit an actual human. His movement looks almost entirely unrestricted. Even without any servos or the like, those pauldrons would simply rotate or slide along the bicep and move out of the way for most motions.
Second, the reason Guard armor, or the random pictures people are posting, look more "high tech" is because of random panel lines and raised edges thrown all over them for no reason. Every discontinuity in that armor is a weak point, every ridge or gap is a potential shell trap. You think it looks high tech because it has gee-wiz factor, not because it actually makes sense.
For really high tech armor, try smoothly curved, highly advanced ceramic-metal composite plates. That would stop bullets (and I mean in reality). Your armor will probably end up looking like a knight because, hey, maximizing plate coverage of the human body has been done before. Realistically, the pauldrons should be as large as possible without sacrificing mobility due to the increased protection they provide the entire upper body while in a firing stance, especially if they can be made large enough to cover the shoulder joint from the front, a major weak point. Similar hanging plates should go over the groin/hip. Now bury a high-tech motivating system under the plates, where it's safe from enemy fire. Sensors, comms, and the like should be embedded for protection whenever possible. Heck, even a bell-bottom flare on the greaves makes sense, given the oversized servos you'd need to stabilize the ankle joint.
You end up with something that looks vaguely like power armor, imagine that.
I don't get the Pauldron hate. Especially when using some of the horrible artwork where nothing is standard.
Model-wise, I don't own a single Space marine figure where that's in a "shooting stance" (Bolter held properly in both hands, firing to the side) where the top of their pauldrons comes up past the hoses on the sides of their helmet, other that the stupid pauldrons that have the huge ornate upper rim, like Deathwatch or Chaos. same with any kind of akimbo "boltpistol and chainsword" stance.
Sure, they can't see the ground right at their feet when they look to the side, but neither can American football players. Autosenses aside, their own helmet eye-holes probably restrict more vision that their own body armor, unless they are to look over their shoulder behind them, because then they'll see nothing but the back-pack vent.
I can't think of any way I could normally pose a Space marine figure, (if they are equipped with standard pauldrons) in a pose where they can't "see" past their own pauldrons, unless you rotate either of the arms so hugely far up to the front that the 90 degree angle at the bottom of the pauldron rim is even with their face, pointing towards the sky.
So..... basically Marines can't keep their situational awareness while they do pull-ups. All the enemies of the Imperium, take heed!
Realistically, the pauldrons should be as large as possible without sacrificing mobility due to the increased protection they provide the entire upper body while in a firing stance, especially if they can be made large enough to cover the shoulder joint from the front, a major weak point.
That's actually the weakness I see, as a person who wears medieval armor on a regular basis. Nothing about a Space marine's pauldron covers their vulnerable armpit, unless the arm is tight up against the body. Medieval pauldrons overlap the chest, sometimes almost so far that they nearly touch each other. The straight upright edges of Marine shoulder armor are a horrible design.
That's so when you have your arm 90 degrees out to the side, it curves down to cover the armpit from the front/back. Some even have what I think are called "Roundels", which are disks of plate which hang from the edge of each pauldron to cover even further in that pose.
In fact, see these- I actually fight in this exact set of pauldrons. They are awesome, because they don't restrict the movement at all (I can shoot even basketball in them!):
I'm going to say, first of all, some people in here have no idea how pauldrons work, going so far as to ignore the guy who has actually WORN knight's armor. Pauldrons on the models may be exaggerated, but so is everything else, it's "heroic" scale. Nothing about anyone's proportions make sense. See the picture posted earlier of the guy in power armor at E3 or wherever that was, proportioned to fit an actual human. His movement looks almost entirely unrestricted. Even without any servos or the like, those pauldrons would simply rotate or slide along the bicep and move out of the way for most motions.
Second, the reason Guard armor, or the random pictures people are posting, look more "high tech" is because of random panel lines and raised edges thrown all over them for no reason. Every discontinuity in that armor is a weak point, every ridge or gap is a potential shell trap. You think it looks high tech because it has gee-wiz factor, not because it actually makes sense.
For really high tech armor, try smoothly curved, highly advanced ceramic-metal composite plates. That would stop bullets (and I mean in reality). Your armor will probably end up looking like a knight because, hey, maximizing plate coverage of the human body has been done before. Realistically, the pauldrons should be as large as possible without sacrificing mobility due to the increased protection they provide the entire upper body while in a firing stance, especially if they can be made large enough to cover the shoulder joint from the front, a major weak point. Similar hanging plates should go over the groin/hip. Now bury a high-tech motivating system under the plates, where it's safe from enemy fire. Sensors, comms, and the like should be embedded for protection whenever possible. Heck, even a bell-bottom flare on the greaves makes sense, given the oversized servos you'd need to stabilize the ankle joint.
You end up with something that looks vaguely like power armor, imagine that.
So Space Marine armor actually makes more sense then other sci-fi armor. Interesting...
its all in the curves. Their armor is curved at almost every point of impact, meaning shots will deflect rather then hit with their entire force.
The only weak spots are the neck and armpits, which are very hard to hit with ranged attacks accuratly. No sniper trains for a head shot, they train to hit center mass. head shots are something they might pull off once in a lifetime with a perfect set up.
I think they are much to large to be useful and yes on the figs that are very damned restrictive, they simply good not move into some of those poses. It really does not matter that they can "Move on their own". Some would have to move by a foot or more to get into some of those poses, slowing you down, blocking views( A great many do not use helms so auto sense are not helping them), leaving gaping wholes in areas it should be protecting just so you can move. One luck shot into a moving "cover" and congrats, if your lucky your arm is merely stuck and you have not been hurt or killed by that weak spot they just hit so you could move your arm.
You guys keep showing armor, but every example you show is 40% smaller on the largest set next to that used by the SM. If your examples were as big on proportion as the SM, Knights would not have used them either, the few that did, used em for jousting and it was never meant for real combat. They are simply an aesthetic choice that has zero to do with "protection" or any of that. Some of you have admitted the proportion was way off . So please except it for what it is, a design choice not some way to protect them when it ids far to large to do that, they could get the same level of protection with a much, much smaller pad, without levying themselves wide open. Snipers would have a field day crippling them with some of the explanations used here . Wait for the shoulders to move, nail the weak spot. Works every time.
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
Is it ruined? Having just looked carefully at all of the films, they do, admittedly, make sense. Particularly when you include EpIII scenes and stuff in the mix. TBH, the New Jedi Order period, with the Yuuzhan Vong War is my favourite time in it, mostly because you had no idea is they would survive, let alone win... Lucas is good at writing, good at producing, bad at directing. There is a lot missing in the films that you need to read the novels for to get a better understanding. Especially EpII.
Be glad I haven't done a comparison against the Sardaukar then... because I doubt there would be much contest.
SM smack of a rip-off of them any way. But then, there are a lot of amusing similarities to SF and other Genre stuff in 40K.
I'd comment more on SM armour, but I have to do it later.
You should watch the RedLetterMedia reviews on the Star Wars Prequels. They'll change yer mind; they changed mine.
Thank you for the referral. I am going to pass, however.
You are discussing a universe that has got stories told over tens of thousands of years, told over multiple forms of media, by dozens of authors. Discrepencies are inevitable.
As for the prequels, I found that they needed the same treatment as the first three films: You read the novels of them. That is when they make the most sense. Episode II is an awful lot better for it. You get why Padme fell for Anakin, and motivations and everything. I'll stop here, to do the next post, because i want it all in one lump before moving on.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Cameron Baum wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Cameron Baum wrote:THE SHOULDER PADS STOP HIM FROM MOVING HIS ARMS THAT HIGH.
To paraphrase a Star Wars character, since you seem so high on that garbage, ruined universe from Sell-out hack-"writer"/"director" George Lucas (lol):
Is it ruined? Having just looked carefully at all of the films, they do, admittedly, make sense
The might make sense. I've really never analyzed them.
They do however, completely suck, at every level, lol. Terrible, terrible films. The universe is ruined by continuity errors in the license material, but that's irrelevant The only part of it that remains relevant are the films, and they are so bad that you wonder how Lucas managed to even participate in cinematic classics like the first three films, or Indiana Jones, etc.
Phantom Menace, and the two tragedies that followed it, are almost textbook examples of how not to make films. George Lucas was never a masterful director (it is no secret that the undisputed best of the six Star Wars films (Empire) is the only one George Lucas didn't write and didn't direct, and ironically, reportedly his least favorite, lol). However, when he made the prequels, he surrounded himself with "Yes Men" who simply went with every moronic, outlandish thing he came up with. He is such a bad director that he took skilled, respected actors like Samuel Jackson and Natalie Portman and coaxed out of them the worst performances of their careers. Though, in their defense, Helen Mirren or Marlon Brando would probably seem fake and wooden under Lucas's directing hand.
LoneLictor mentioned RedLetterMedia;'s reviews. They are a great. Very funny, but also made by a guy who really knows his stuff when it comes to story telling and movie making.
Did I ever say that they were great films? No, I said they made sense. And they are not terrible films. They are not on the same level as Uwe Boll or David DeCoteau. Right there is a special level of cruel torture...
I'll defend Lucas, because he created an amazing universe and set several landmarks. He created ILM, which created so many special effects, the industry was revolutionised. He took a recommendation from Speilberg, and used John Williams instead of Classical music for the soundtrack, thus bringing back the idea of specific music for the film. Do I need to continue?
The real mark of the prequels is if they do the same as the IV-VI: inspire and influence the next generation or two of film makers. I'm certain that they will. However, Lucas is a poor director. I'm not going to go out to lynch him, because I wish to reserve that for Steven Moffat and JJ Abrams, who are decidedly worse than Lucas.
Also, it is easy to criticise directors for their films, but they've gone out and DONE it. How many of us say "We could do that better," and have no experience of film making, or an idea as to how to do it? There is a lot involved, more than we appreciate. Like with Rowling and Harry Potter. How many of us have said it could be better, and we could write better, but the ideas never materialise onto paper?
Credit where credit is due. Just not for directing.....
Grey Templar wrote:The shoulder pad is essentially the marine bringing his own cover with him.
he can kneel down and present his side to the enemy. that results in his pauldron protecting the bulk of his most vulnerable part(his helmet) and he can just peek around it, not that he needs to with his autosenses.
And if there is actual cover he can be even better protected.
the weight and it getting in the way are solved by the powered nature of the armor and the black carapace. Marines are actually faster and stronger in their armor then they are out of it because the servos increase their strength and reaction times.
You know, the Shoulder Pads are useful. Have a harpoon, rope attached and a fast moving vehicle, and we have a downed SM...
And what happens if the servos fail? What good is his armour then?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:
SpankHammer III wrote:I don't know where all the shoulder pad hatred comes from, they are iconic.
The robot armor is awesome but it's not 40k.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i find it difficult to believe people are using the result of "worlds deadliest warrior" as sceintific explanations of anything. The very basis of that program is complete bull crap
They may be Iconic, but they are gods awful and need to go (IMO) They mask, the colors, the symbols and such are much more Space marine then the shoulder pads. You could make them smaller or lose them and it would change nothing.
Oh and I so agree about deadliest warrior , the show is a fun waste ol time to watch em hit pigs with weapons or something, but is in no way ever scientific in any way.
Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:
This one would be cool for the sisters of battle. But this type is too fragile looking compaired to the current mk VIII.
I agree it is a bit silly, but was intresting, far two thin and has boobs, but I found the shoulderpads a better proportion then what is currently used.
See I do not care a whole lot for the IoM's aesthetics all told, SM armor is suppose to be so advanced it can not be easily made, most is repaired and little understood. However it does not look it, it looks like clunky knock-off armor made by folks who could no longer find or maintain the good old style tech armor. It does not look like something churned out off a pattern of an STC from the very height of human technology. It looks like junk they use because they could not get anything better., base Guard armor often looks more technical and advanced then SM armor.
That is the issue I have, it simply does not fit the fluff in any way.
I'm going to say, first of all, some people in here have no idea how pauldrons work, going so far as to ignore the guy who has actually WORN knight's armor. Pauldrons on the models may be exaggerated, but so is everything else, it's "heroic" scale. Nothing about anyone's proportions make sense. See the picture posted earlier of the guy in power armor at E3 or wherever that was, proportioned to fit an actual human. His movement looks almost entirely unrestricted. Even without any servos or the like, those pauldrons would simply rotate or slide along the bicep and move out of the way for most motions.
Second, the reason Guard armor, or the random pictures people are posting, look more "high tech" is because of random panel lines and raised edges thrown all over them for no reason. Every discontinuity in that armor is a weak point, every ridge or gap is a potential shell trap. You think it looks high tech because it has gee-wiz factor, not because it actually makes sense.
For really high tech armor, try smoothly curved, highly advanced ceramic-metal composite plates. That would stop bullets (and I mean in reality). Your armor will probably end up looking like a knight because, hey, maximizing plate coverage of the human body has been done before. Realistically, the pauldrons should be as large as possible without sacrificing mobility due to the increased protection they provide the entire upper body while in a firing stance, especially if they can be made large enough to cover the shoulder joint from the front, a major weak point. Similar hanging plates should go over the groin/hip. Now bury a high-tech motivating system under the plates, where it's safe from enemy fire. Sensors, comms, and the like should be embedded for protection whenever possible. Heck, even a bell-bottom flare on the greaves makes sense, given the oversized servos you'd need to stabilize the ankle joint.
You end up with something that looks vaguely like power armor, imagine that.
Yeah, and they were iconic in Dynasty, too. Except they were seen as a joke in the end by the general public.
History's deadliest warriors is useful. They are showing you what the weapons and armour could do.
As for really high tech armour, you need to make sure it can deal with EMP, power surges, water penetration to electronic components, air flow, heat, viruses... Also, with all those components, and the complexity, what happens if one fails during battle? If he can't see, or if the left leg servos glitch, or the air flow stops, he's in serious trouble.
I would seriously love to see how well SM armour can take burning Napalm. Will the heat generated melt wires and components? Could it melt circuit boards? And it will consume the oxygen all around the marine, making it a challenge to breathe. And you need systems to keep the SM cool, to prevent him from cooking to death. All this is in assumption that the suit is completely airtight, and there are no seals broken or damaged. Assuming this is the case to begin with, since all the SM armour lovers are quick to say they cap rip off helmets in no time. Can't be done in a contained system...
Then there is Thermite or molecular acid. Lets see how long the SM squad lasts when sprayed/hit with those...
Also, the shoulder pads are a problem in high winds. Yeah, the servos can compensate, but that extra strain could be all that's needed to cripple the system...
As for armour, I'll throw these into the hat, to see the response:
First off, it would have to be one hell of a harpoon to penetrate the ceramite and then you are assuming the marine can't get up once he's down. He would grab the chain(because a rope would just snap) and dig his heels into the ground and your fast, speedy, light, vehicle suddenly finds itself attached to a half ton monster with no way of escaping it.
yes, the servos can fail. however you are talking about something that is highly unlikely. PA is the culmination of thousands and thousands of years of technological invention. The systems incorperated to protect the internal workings will be unbelievably complex.
And if the suit does lose power the marine isn't helpless. He is just slowed similer to how a medieval knight would be with unpowered armor. Its not like the suit freezes up and he can't move anymore.
The miniatures arn't of a proper scale and artwork is done as, well, artwork. The proportions will be slightly different IRL. and Pauldrons can be quite big without interfering with your movements(especially if they are powered)
Yep they fail, a sniper will take one out, or a footmen or that there harpoon when he moves as he is exposing them. The "They work because of hydraulics" simply does not cut it. They are to big and a liability in and every way you look at it.
In the end it comes down to taste. Some of you think they are fine and some of us thing they are far from fine.
You do realise how stupid that sounds. A sniper isn't going to be able to reliably hit the head. They train to aim for center mass.
Even a Vindicare is going to aim for the chest. It will be far easier to take out the spine then go for a headshot.
And yeah, they are exposed when he moves. Try to hit a moving target reliably with a weapon. Now try to aim for a very small part of that moving target. Its not going to happen except once every thousand attempts.
"They work because of Hydraulics" is a perfectly fine explaination. Do you have a specific reason it wouldn't?
Because to many damned moving parts makes to many targets. They move a few hundred times per minent.or so, They are old, sometimes ill kept and would be a hell a lot ol ware and tear.
Every time they move they make a weak spot, a sniper does not need a head shot, he just has to hit that weak spot and cripple that arm movement. You jam a rifle in there..bang, crippled arm . They would be fouled up often, small damage could mess up the way it lays and those Hydraulics are now broken and useless.
They are a liability and any SM ith an once of sense will be ripping those off the first sign of jamming, so about 10 mins into a battle.
All these moving parts are inside the armor. And you are seriously stretching plausability when you say a sniper is going to hit this weak spot. its incredibly difficult to hit a person, let alone a specific spot on that person. Even if a Space Marine is standing perfectly still a sniper is still going to stretch his skills just to hit him. Less so then a normal person but its still not an easy thing to accomplish.
All these moving parts are inside the armor. And you are seriously stretching plausability when you say a sniper is going to hit this weak spot. its incredibly difficult to hit a person, let alone a specific spot on that person. Even if a Space Marine is standing perfectly still a sniper is still going to stretch his skills just to hit him. Less so then a normal person but its still not an easy thing to accomplish.
All these moving parts are inside the armor. And you are seriously stretching plausability
Sigh, no they are not. They are between the armor and the pad, other wise they could not ya know move them. You guys keep saying they move the pads up and out of the way so he can move. That makes a gap, you can not move them out of the way without making a gap. Go look at the art and the figs. They would have to move a hug amount for some motions and they would be moving dozens of times in a row, hundreds of times. And each and every time it does in this 10k old armor that is a chance for it to brake down and a chance for an enemy to hit that opening and cripple that movement.
You are the one seriously stretching plausibility here. To think this aging, ill kept , little understood armor can move that much and never brake down is one thing, to think nothing would ever get struck in the moving parts is a second and to think someone would not aim for them is a third. The "Hydraulics moves it" is simply silly and moves it even more a liability then it juts being stupidly over large
They arn't visable from the outside. The moving parts are between the pauldron and the actual shoulder. Not somewhere a sniper is going to put a bullet.
Telion is one dude, and a space marine to boot.
Even if its possable, and it always is, for a sniper to do that its going to be such a freak occurence that it will not invalidate the armor.
The argument that its a weakness is extremely faulty. just because something can go disastrously wrong a very tiny % of the time isn't reason to say something needs fixing.
They still would have to make a gap man, a large gap for some movements. You keep ignoring that, the pads simply get in the way of ANY movement not up and down . Any and every movement moves them pads, to pull his arms straight out you would have a huge gap.
Its only going to be vulnerable in close combat. No one is going to get a hit there at range unless they are EXTREMELY lucky. even less if the marine is taking cover(which he will be)
and the idea that it restricts movement was debunked ages ago. stop saying it does because it doesn't.
First of all the power armour Astartes use is extremely well maintained. It is kept in good order by the Astartes caring for the suit, which is as much a part of him as his own hearts, the Techmarines or Techpriests repairing & maintaining the suit and the innate Machine Spirit helping out in its own way. If it was not well maintained then not only would stick out as going contrary to the Astartes martial discipline but the power armour would have been replaced millenia ago. A suit of power armour is an item of reverence - earlier marks are held to be of great value & their owners are held in high esteem, especially those who wear the much coveted, lighter Mk.IV 'Maximus'.
Hitting those 'weak' points will not be an easy matter. Too many factors come into play. First of all the battlefield; explosions, bullets zipping through the air, las weapons discharging their beams, slugga's barking, tank & vehicle engines roaring, acrid smoke & dust sheeting the combatants, the weather hammering down at them. Secondly the Astartes; very fast moving, as quick as the Eldar, heightened senses plus the auto-senses mounted into their helmet allows them to spot & prioritise threats quickly, faster than a regular human would be able to, allowing them to adapt to the situation with a speed that is inhuman. Often decades of combat experience helping them to use cover & concealment to their advantage, excellent shots & phenomenal martial artists allow them to dominate both ranged and melee combat, huge reach & strength.
Now tell me that a renegade Guardsman, as an example, is going to calmly rise up to his feet, sight his lasgun on the weak part of the armour and blow a hole in it with a Marine bearing down on them - I think not. More likely duck out of cover, fire quickly and duck back. Self-preservation would say not to do anything that might anger those behemoths.
On to the pads moving - yes they'll move but there's a load of well shaped ceramite covering the arms & torso, so whilst the additional shoulder pad is an advantage in protection if a shot does get under it it isn't the end of the world. Just that extra armour & space between the pad & arm will help to protect the Marine further than if the pads were a) smaller or b) not there.
If you guys think they are fine, cool. Some of us disagree. This thread is about what changes people would make, not 40k vs, SW, Not I think it is fine don't you dare think otherwise. I respect you like them as they are, I disagree there is any real reason other then pure aesthetics as to why they are that big. I am not buying the theory you are pushing, I am not buying the idea they must be that big to function or that making them smaller suddenly makes them "Un-40k"
My personal opinion on this thread: If different types of power armor could be thrown into the mix I would suggest maybe something along the lines of Fallout-based Power Armor like this:
I would also like to add maybe some of this or other suits that could be used by Stormtroppers or Kaskrins. Just suggestions
DeadlySquirrel wrote:I see the word "shoulder pads" appear a lot here. THEY'RE CALLED PAULDRONS!
Yeah I know, I also know I will mangle that word to such an extent the spell check will give me something like pantaloons or pander or something.. I say shoulder pads, y'all know what I mean
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LORD_PANTERA wrote:My personal opinion on this thread: If different types of power armor could be thrown into the mix I would suggest maybe something along the lines of Fallout-based Power Armor like this:
I would also like to add maybe some of this or other suits that could be used by Stormtroppers or Kaskrins. Just suggestions
Yeah I am thinking about it. Already there is "Heavy" armor, terminator armor. I have did more then a little reworking of the Astarte myself and the idea of light "scout" armor I feel is not uncalled for. Also I like the proportion of those pads .
LORD_PANTERA wrote:My personal opinion on this thread: If different types of power armor could be thrown into the mix I would suggest maybe something along the lines of Fallout-based Power Armor like this:
I would also like to add maybe some of this or other suits that could be used by Stormtroppers or Kaskrins. Just suggestions
Of course this suffers from the issues mentioned earlier that each ridge on the armor creates a weak spot compared to a completely smooth surface which has completely uniform protection. The ridges and stuff just look cool.
But it is made of scrap metal in a post-appocalyptic world so we can't judge it too much. PA is made by a Galaxy spanning empire and is the height of 20,000 years of armor development.
But it is made of scrap metal in a post-appocalyptic world so we can't judge it too much. PA is made by a Galaxy spanning empire and is the height of 20,000 years of armor development.
It just looks half a step more advanced then stuff Orks make Some of it is even painted red!
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I read napalm somewhere in the last few pages...
There's promethium in 40k, used in flamers, I'd hazard a guess that they're probably pretty similar. Cooked marines taste the best XD
Not sure about the table top, but in the RPG's Flamers do have penetration, its hard but yeah they can cook someone in PA. They may not breach, but they will overload its power and shut it down, roasting from the inside. Also Plasma weapons do a fine jub of poking wholes in it.
Maybe a sustained bath in a flamer would kill the marine but if its just on him for a couple seconds its not going to do much. Marines regularly get hit by flamers in the fluff and come out with little more then a singed paint job.
PA is completely sealed(it can operate in a vaccum) so the flamer won't penetrate. Ceramite is also stated to be a poor conductor of heat.
So flamers arn't going to do much unless they are hot enough to melt the ceramite(Flamestorm cannons)
I would say that in the fluff, Power Armor must have some sort of high resistance to heat and acids, as the first Terminator suits were built to work inside of inactive plasma reactor units, so they had to be able to stand up to the toxic enviroments inside. Power armor should at least be some lesser magnitude of that protection.
And as for why plasma goes through TDA, they still get a 5+ invuln against it and there is a big difference between a plasma reactor and a bolt of plasma. a Reactor is more like a flamer then a plasma bolt.
It can get through the air filters even if they are sealed because it is small enough. Perhaps the filters are even made with organic material that the virus can eat through.
they seem to flip flop on if it is sealed. I tend to say it is, which kills the whole virus, unless it can eat though the casing or something.
As I said above, I do not think flamers could burn then( except the whole bunch who go helmless...) but it could cook them, they will have a threshold and if it works more like naplame I think givin time it'll ovr load the suits cooling system.
Grey Templar wrote:
PA is completely sealed(it can operate in a vaccum) so the flamer won't penetrate.
How does the Flesh-eater Virus get through?
iirc in Galaxy in Flames that they mixed in a compound that makes it slightly corrosive meaning it can eat into the weaker sections of the suit and break the seal.
jonolikespie wrote:
iirc in Galaxy in Flames that they mixed in a compound that makes it slightly corrosive meaning it can eat into the weaker sections of the suit and break the seal.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I think some folks are thinking of the extermnus virus which is a whole other level ol nasty.
There is not such a thing as "the Exterminatus virus". Exterminatus is an action/declaration; the Flesh Eater Virus is one such weapon which can be classed as an "Exterminatus weapon".
There is the Life-Eater virus, which is one kind of Virus bomb and the effects of which tend to vary depending on which author you read. Some people treat it as an actual bio weapon, wheras other authors seem to ascribe some bizarre properties.
I like the 'walking tank' marines.
I have to admit, one of my fave figures is the really old model of a marine om early model terminator armour. Do a modern range of these please
Hunterindarkness wrote:I think some folks are thinking of the extermnus virus which is a whole other level ol nasty.
There is not such a thing as "the Exterminatus virus". Exterminatus is an action/declaration; the Flesh Eater Virus is one such weapon which can be classed as an "Exterminatus weapon".
Eh more or less the same thing. If it can do that, that pretty much is what it is.
Daedricbob wrote:I like the 'walking tank' marines.
I have to admit, one of my fave figures is the really old model of a marine om early model terminator armour. Do a modern range of these please
that is just, ugh. Just awful man. To me anyhow,except the legs, I like the Legs
Hunterindarkness wrote:I think some folks are thinking of the extermnus virus which is a whole other level ol nasty.
There is not such a thing as "the Exterminatus virus". Exterminatus is an action/declaration; the Flesh Eater Virus is one such weapon which can be classed as an "Exterminatus weapon".
Eh more or less the same thing. If it can do that, that pretty much is what it is.
No, it's not "more or less the same thing".
One thing is a "classification", which covers many various things: in this case that classification is Exterminatus weapons.
"Exterminatus weapons" is an obscenely broad category. It can range from planet-cracking torpedoes on one end of the spectrum, to things like the Life-Eater Virus.
"Exterminatus" proper can also include massive amounts of standard weapons fire leveling everything on the planet.
No no, they're pretty much the same thing to everyone who isn''t trying to be pedantic about it. Your tone makes it sound like your personal honor is at stake or something, lol. xP
Considering the poster I replied to has been making quite a few threads arguing the "technical" aspects of 40k--"being pedantic" is a bit of a luxury here in this thread.
I can not take someone's statements remotely serious when they are getting upset about the "science of 40k" in a thread complaining about the Imperial Guard's tanks--and then they shrug it off as "eh close enough" when they're corrected on something.
I would agree with you if the point of contention wasn't something as minimal as a classification/grammar error... which it is, lol. Saying "the exterminatus virus" is the short-hand version of saying "the virus Horus used to perform exterminatus on Istvaan". I'm pretty sure we all know what the point he was trying to convey was, so it just seems like nitpicking to me, honestly. It'd be like me saying "the Hiroshima bomb" and someone jumping on me and saying that there's no such thing as a "Hiroshima bomb". Obviously, by "hiroshima bomb" I'm referring to the nuclear bomb America dropped on Hiroshima, lol.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah man a virus that pulls an Exterminatus is an Exterminatus virus. What else do you call it ?
Guy one: "Can you pull out Exterminatus type 3 virus weapon ?"
Guy 2: " The Exterminatus virus right?"
Guy 1: We've got four different types of virus aboard we can unleash under an Exterminatus order - we want number 3. Not 5, 6 or 9.
There isn't just one virus or one type of warhead used during Exterminatus - there are differing payloads with differing results. Therefore, when loading & preparing the weapons, they would be -very- specific as to which payload is to be used.
Be like going into a WW2 tank fight with your tanks cannon loaded with HE instead of AP - still cannon ammunition isn't it?
LORD_PANTERA wrote:My personal opinion on this thread: If different types of power armor could be thrown into the mixI would suggest maybe something along the lines of Fallout-based Power Armor like this:
I would also like to add maybe some of this or other suits that could be used by Stormtroppers or Kaskrins. Just suggestions
Hunterindarkness wrote: I am not gonna argue semantics . Call it what ya wish, if it pulls off an Exterminatus, then Exterminatus virus is a good enough name for me.
Soooooo torpedoes are viruses..... I'm just messing with you...
But slightly back on topic, I doubt that many things can survive an exterminatus (virus or torpedoes) unless they come prepared. Marine armour can last for a while against the virus but even on istvaan they needed bunkers. Course armour has come a long way, but like I mentioned before, Iife support isn't infinite... and the virus lasts pretty long
All in how nasty it is but yeah, the armor has weak points, all armor does. Seals, joints or the like. If something is nasty enough to eat flesh and maybe corrode some metals , then yeah they are screwed.
Over all most base type of virus or bio-weapons would be useless to use on them with an undamaged suit and a sealed helm. I know some books may say otherwise, but That is a bit silly don't ya think.
I'd also like to point out that marine armour, whilst miles better than flak armour, is still puncturable. I know nobody has fallen into the trap of saying they're indestructable because of said armour, but I would like to say that a rifle (sniper) shot will still take a marine's head off (DOW2). Even then, hack-and-slash weaponry like chainswords can tear through power armour with a little effort.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
And I must ask. Has anyone seen a SM mini or know of a pic of one without the massive pads?
Delving back onto the subject of PAULDRONS, build a SM, leave off the PAULDRONS.
Sure they look rather stupid, but they're loyalists. At least Chaos gets imaginative with what they clamp onto their shoulders...
Neophiles94 wrote:I'd also like to point out that marine armour, whilst miles better than flak armour, is still puncturable. I know nobody has fallen into the trap of saying they're indestructable because of said armour, but I would like to say that a rifle (sniper) shot will still take a marine's head off (DOW2). Even then, hack-and-slash weaponry like chainswords can tear through power armour with a little effort.
Eh, a computer game is hardly a good way to judge the background. Question is, what sort of precision rifle are we talking about? A Longlas? A Stalker bolter? A solid-slug rifle? The Stalker is a slightly more precise bolter which fires the same ammunition as a regular boltgun. A Longlas is potentially able to punch through ceramite power armour, but that would most likely only happen after the marksman had overloaded the cell to give off one or two highly powerful shots, which will heavily degrade the lenses & the barrel, but that's by the by. Solid slug rifles, such as the common 'Hunting rifle', might go through Flak but because the bullet is similar to those used by Stubba & Auto weapons, it'd most likely just bounce off of a Marine's power armour.
If we do go by game terms, as you brought up DoW2, in the TT Codices, 'Sniper Rifles' are AP6 - that's not even enough to go through Flak!
Chain weapons do not go through power armour armour with 'little effort'. They have a very tough time against ceramite power armour, it's generally the phenomenal strength of the Astartes behind it that force it through the armour* - ceramite is an incredibly tough and durable material, but quite heavy. Hence why the suits are powered - the lightest, MkIV, weighed in at 190lbs. The others are 200lbs+. That's heavier than I am at 179lbs. Imagine just how much protection that armour grants! The image of Astartes wading through small-arms fire with it pattering off them like rain is well-founded, I think. Power swords are another matter entirely - with the energy field that surrounds these weapons, upon activation, they make all armour essentially useless, but such weapons are rare & few and far between.
*They're big fat weapons with big fat teeth. That doesn't bode well for armour penetration. It's like the katana - good for going through thin or light armours and flesh but against armour its fat blade really struggles as it forces a gap with the edge and then the rest of the weapon has to try and force itself through that gap - like forcing an obese person through a thin doorway.
Heh, guys if I had SM and had seen them before adding the pads you think I would have asked what they looked like without them?
Anyhow some one in the painting forum was nice enough to post a pic without them and someone else pointed out someone who had made a SW themed SM army without the massive pads.
Looked so much better to me. I was warned however the heads might be to big.
I've always liked this. Isn't it interesting how the Military is now moving in this direction?
As an Ex-Military Officer some jobs were really unsuitable for troops and regularly resulted in injury usually heavy lifting jobs (Heavy Ordance reloading like 155mm Shells or loading weapon on Helicopters and Aircraft). I don't think Troops will get them, but specialists at Airfields or Logistics troops or Heavy support troops might carrying 120mm Mortars and ammunition easily around.
This bit of kit is very interesting...
Not quite power armour, but the dexterity and the augmentation/multiplying of human strength is very interesting.
On Topic; I would say that TDA should look like this...
Found it on DeviantART a few weeks back and copied to my desktop, I have been after inspiration for Iron Hands Morlock terminators (both Pre-Heresy and 40k ones).
The Torso, to Shoulders to Arm's look quite good and more believable than a normal Terminator. His cloven hoofs and short backwards legs are meh, but I like the aesthetic. Imagining him with an Assault Cannon, I also like the Powerfist look of his left hand.
I think an AD-MECH force would be ripe for this, Tech-Guard, with lower level skitarii as troops and Tech-Guard Praetorian type modified terminators .
Not really, no. They are not as large in proportion as the current ones for a SM, believe it or not.. They also do not hang the same way and while they would be restrictive ( as other parts of the suit is) I am ok with that as something like heavy assault armor such as a terminator. Its bulky slow and over armored, giving up agility and movement for extra armor.
I should note: I would cut them down on the top there a bit , if it were up to me.
First off, it would have to be one hell of a harpoon to penetrate the ceramite and then you are assuming the marine can't get up once he's down. He would grab the chain(because a rope would just snap) and dig his heels into the ground and your fast, speedy, light, vehicle suddenly finds itself attached to a half ton monster with no way of escaping it.
yes, the servos can fail. however you are talking about something that is highly unlikely. PA is the culmination of thousands and thousands of years of technological invention. The systems incorperated to protect the internal workings will be unbelievably complex.
And if the suit does lose power the marine isn't helpless. He is just slowed similer to how a medieval knight would be with unpowered armor. Its not like the suit freezes up and he can't move anymore.
The miniatures arn't of a proper scale and artwork is done as, well, artwork. The proportions will be slightly different IRL. and Pauldrons can be quite big without interfering with your movements(especially if they are powered)
Yes, a Harpoon. With enough force, it can penetrate. It will have a barbed end, causing damage as you pull it out, if you can. Also, if you think about it, to grab the harpoon means not grabbing your weapon, so you have to make yourself defenceless to try and deal with it. And you seem to forget that the flyer will have power and thrust, thus meaning that the Marine is being tugged hard. Also, I question your half tonne weight. If that is so, and it loses power, then you have a guy trying to haul him self around in a half tonne suit. That makes no sense to me. Who is inside? The Incredible Hulk?
Cameron Baum wrote:Yes, a Harpoon. With enough force, it can penetrate. It will have a barbed end, causing damage as you pull it out, if you can. Also, if you think about it, to grab the harpoon means not grabbing your weapon, so you have to make yourself defenceless to try and deal with it. And you seem to forget that the flyer will have power and thrust, thus meaning that the Marine is being tugged hard. Also, I question your half tonne weight. If that is so, and it loses power, then you have a guy trying to haul him self around in a half tonne suit. That makes no sense to me. Who is inside? The Incredible Hulk?
Inconsistent argument...
A harpoon would almost always glance off the rounded curves of power armour.
Further, power armour is so called because it is powered. It contains self moving motors which not only take the weight of the armour itself, but also add to the wearers strength and speed.
Cameron Baum wrote:Also, if you think about it, to grab the harpoon means not grabbing your weapon, so you have to make yourself defenceless to try and deal with it.
Marines have two hands and are more than capable of wielding their bolters with just one hand - if an Astartes can crush a mans head with one hand, with ease outside of their armour, I'm sure they'd find firing a bolter weighing in at 7kg+ with just one hand ridiculously easy. So, in this example, they wouldn't have a problem grabbing a harpoon with one hand, using their colossal strength to rip it from their armour & still use their boltgun to fight back. With the various implants Astartes have, any damage caused by the barbs of a harpoon would be nullified as their wounds clot & start healing almost immediately.
Cameron Baum wrote:Also, if you think about it, to grab the harpoon means not grabbing your weapon, so you have to make yourself defenceless to try and deal with it.
Marines have two hands and are more than capable of wielding their bolters with just one hand - if an Astartes can crush a mans head with one hand, with ease outside of their armour, I'm sure they'd find firing a bolter weighing in at 7kg+ with just one hand ridiculously easy. So, in this example, they wouldn't have a problem grabbing a harpoon with one hand, using their colossal strength to rip it from their armour & still use their boltgun to fight back. With the various implants Astartes have, any damage caused by the barbs of a harpoon would be nullified as their wounds clot & start healing almost immediately.
I think pretty much every rule set for 40K has mentioned Marines being able to fire bolters with one hand. If anything, the servo-assisted joints should be great at compensating for recoil, weight and natural sway. Despite how silly this discussion is, certainly a Space Marine could defend himself adequately with a single hand.
I agree, the armor will give if it meets enough force. Sm armor is not invulnerable, just though. If construction beams can get though it, something like a harpoon can as well.
Eh Sm's use spears, Troops use swords in 40k, does not mean they are steel. Weapons while they may be "primitive" they are not limited to "primitive materials". Aiming for the joints would be the best idea, they are always the weak points on any type of armor.
I am not so sure, but 9.5 times out of ten I'll agree. Without some kinda od extra power he might not get though. Weakened or damaged PA however might be a different game.
. Wait for the shoulders to move, nail the weak spot. Works every time.
