Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

It specifically states that they can replace the Twin-Linked Bolter with either a Meltagun/Plasmagun in the entry. Nowhere in the Chaos Wargear section does it state you can replace another piece of wargear with a piece of wargear.

You're stuck with a Twin Linked Bolter as the bike is a piece of wargear and the Lord/Sorcerer has no way of altering that wargear, they can only take it.

EDIT: And looking through, nowhere in the Chaos Wargear List does it say 'You may replace a bike's Twin-Linked Bolter with one of the following:', while in the Biker entry it specifically says you can replace it. Just a further elaboration on my dreadfully vague opening statement.

Jirin wrote:
It specifically states that they can replace the Twin-Linked Bolter with either a Meltagun/Plasmagun in the entry. Nowhere in the Chaos Wargear section does it state you can replace another piece of wargear with a piece of wargear.

You're stuck with a Twin Linked Bolter as the bike is a piece of wargear and the Lord/Sorcerer has no way of altering that wargear, they can only take it.

EDIT: And looking through, nowhere in the Chaos Wargear List does it say 'You may replace a bike's Twin-Linked Bolter with one of the following:', while in the Biker entry it specifically says you can replace it. Just a further elaboration on my dreadfully vague opening statement.

but to take a weapon you simply need to replace a weapon. It does not specify replace your bolt pistol or your ccw, or your force sword, it says any weapon.

are twin linked boltguns not weapons?

They are, but they are also an integral part of another item of wargear, rather than a stand-alone weapon that the character has.

I currently play it as being replaceable on my Lord's bike. The bike gives you access to a twin-linked bolter which you replace. Pretty straightforward.

Yes, you can replace the Bikes weapon with something else as its a weapon.

I can't actually find where it says a Lord must replace items to get them, can someone help me point out the page and approximate paragraph?

That said, the Bike actually is a specific wargear, fully kitted and bought as a whole. You can't replace it's armament unless given permission.

Why not?

The rules are you may replace a weapon the lord owns with a weapon from the wargear list.

The TL-bolter on the bike is a weapon.

The bike is a piece of wargear. It comes with twin-linked bolters.
The Lord does not have twin-linked bolters, the bike does. As such they aren't a weapon that can be swapped.

But where does it say he replaces weapons, I just can't find it. It says "May take items from the <lists>" and I can't find references for replacing anything.

Also, the bolter on the bike is part of Special Issue Wargear and is not a weapon he owns. You can't replace his Frag Grenade with a Melta Gun, can you?

The lord has the bike, therefore he has the TL-bolter.

I own an F-150, the F-150 has a V-8 engine. Therefore, I own a V-8 engine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mahtamori wrote:
You can't replace his Frag Grenade with a Melta Gun

This is because grenades arn't weapons.

And I think his entry says he replaces weapons for wargear from the lists.

As much as IRL comparisons make no sense - you void warranty if you replace engine.

Says "take" and not "replace" in my codex.

Frag Greandes are weapons according to the BRB appendix.

 Mahtamori wrote:
But where does it say he replaces weapons, I just can't find it. It says "May take items from the <lists>" and I can't find references for replacing anything.

Also, the bolter on the bike is part of Special Issue Wargear and is not a weapon he owns. You can't replace his Frag Grenade with a Melta Gun, can you?

Under the wargear list it says "A model can replace one weapon with..."

Bikes and grenades are listed under "special issue wargear," but the twin-linked bolter that the bike comes with is a perfectly fine "ranged weapon" as listed on page 65.

The thing is under the Chaos Biker list it specifically states; '..may replace either their close combat weapon or their bike's twin-linked boltgun with one of the following:'

Nowhere in the Chaos Wargear page nor in the Chaos Lord entry does it state you can replace a Bike's twin-linked boltgun with anything. you are given permission to exchange a model's ranged weapon but not the bike's twin-linked boltgun. The Bikers get a specific exception and wording for this, while the Lord/Sorc do not.

Who cares what the Biker entry says.

All that matters is Chaos Lords may replace any weapon with a list of items.

A Bike gives the Chaos Lord a weapon.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Who cares what the Biker entry says.

All that matters is Chaos Lords may replace any weapon with a list of items.

A Bike gives the Chaos Lord a weapon.

Why not just trade away the grenades? They are both ranged and CC weapons.

Grenades are special issue wargear, not weapons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Grenades are special issue wargear, not weapons.

I see Grenades under the Chapter entitled "Weapons" in the BRB. Furthermore, on page 61 of the BRB, it specifically states that grenades can be used as a Melee weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, Blight Grenades and Melta bombs are the only grenades I see listed under SI Wargear.

 Mahtamori wrote:
I can't actually find where it says a Lord must replace items to get them, can someone help me point out the page and approximate paragraph?

That said, the Bike actually is a specific wargear, fully kitted and bought as a whole. You can't replace it's armament unless given permission.

and the lord was bought fully kitted with a CCW and Bolt Pistol.

The permission is given that a character can replace any of his weapons with another one, the twinlinked boltgun is a weapon and it is the characters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jirin wrote:

Nowhere in the Chaos Wargear page nor in the Chaos Lord entry does it state you can replace a Bike's twin-linked boltgun with anything. you are given permission to exchange a model's ranged weapon but not the bike's twin-linked boltgun. The Bikers get a specific exception and wording for this, while the Lord/Sorc do not.

Under Melee weapons, Ranged Weapons and Chaos Artefacts it says "A model can replace one weapon" not one bolt pistol, not one ccw, not one weapon that he started with, not one weapon that is not on a bike, but JUST weapon.

Does the lord have a "Twin-Linked Bolter" listed in his wargear, or just the Bike?

If it is the former then he can replace it, if it is the latter he can not.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Does the lord have a "Twin-Linked Bolter" listed in his wargear, or just the Bike?

If it is the former then he can replace it, if it is the latter he can not.

As above.

The lord may take a Bike; the bike has a twin-linked bolter.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Does the lord have a "Twin-Linked Bolter" listed in his wargear, or just the Bike?

If it is the former then he can replace it, if it is the latter he can not.

As above.

The lord may take a Bike; the bike has a twin-linked bolter.

So the bike's TL bolter can't actually be fired, since the Lord doesn't have it, and the Bike does not have a BS value?

the bike is a piece of wargear with its own rules. the warlord has 2 weapons he can replace.. such as his ccw and pistol... he can take wargear as well.. the wargear cannot be altered. unless you have something saying the lord can excange the Tl bolter on his bike for something else. then you cannot.. the rule is a permissive set..meaning it gives you permission .. no permission.. no change..

A TL-bolter on a bike is a weapon. Chaos Lords have permission to replace ANY weapon with a weapon from the wargear list. it doesn't matter how they got that weapon, just that they have it.

If the Chaos Lord can't swap the TL-bolter for something, then he actually can't fire it at all. As Avatar 720 pointed out.


A Chaos Lord could infinitly replace a purchased weapon with another purchased weapon and so on.

man...wheres nosferatu when you need him... but you are wrong... is it posted in the lords rules anywhere? and plus who would want to fire the tl bolter anyway?..lol the bike is really just there for movement and increased toughness..

 Avatar 720 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Does the lord have a "Twin-Linked Bolter" listed in his wargear, or just the Bike?

If it is the former then he can replace it, if it is the latter he can not.

As above.

The lord may take a Bike; the bike has a twin-linked bolter.

So the bike's TL bolter can't actually be fired, since the Lord doesn't have it, and the Bike does not have a BS value?

Incorrect the Lord has a bike, the bike has a weapon.

"Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike." P. 45

Is the TL bolter covered under the "one weapon" rule on P.45, Yes it is, as that rule does not care who, or what, possesses the weapon.

I didn't contest that the bike didn't have allowance to fire, only the fact that its lack of BS prevents it from doing so.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I didn't contest that the bike didn't have allowance to fire, only the fact that its lack of BS prevents it from doing so.

My bolter doesn't have a listed BS either, and its wargear. My powersword doesn't have a WS listed... so either no wargear can use its weapon properties, or they all can

Back to the OP

A bike is wargear. Some wargear can be found under weapons. A bike isn't, can't replace it since it isn't a weapon. I don't even see the question here.

No. Bikes are wargear with fitted weapons. If those were replaceable with other options, it would be listed.

I would lean towards yes. The wargear is not at all specific about what can be replaced. If you argue the model doesn't have the weapon, p45 gives you no allowance to use their BS to make a shooting attack using a bike mounted weapon - it merely says they can fire a weapon for each rider. Well, if the model isn't counted as the bike, you cannot use the model's BS. The bike thus cannot shoot, which is obviously wrong. All the wargear section requires is the ability to replace a weapon. Hence, if the bike's gun can be used, it must be replaceable as it must be part of the model to use their BS.

I'll admit that looks flimsy but it seems to work at least.

I dont see any reason you could not replace ghe weapon; it is a weapon that the lord has, its just attached to a fething great bike. I expectg they will faq otherwise though...

No, wrong again, Nos. Chaos lords have to buy their combi-bolters, as well as the bikes they could ride. With bikes granting relentless to the riders, that is a hand-held and a bike-mounted set of bolter shots flying out, two rapid fire weapons, just like other codexes.

And another fallacy of the OP... just because chaos bikera may take add-on weapons, does not grant the chaos lord the same option. That's like saying because an h-k missile may be given to the ironclad dreadnought, the others can get one, too.

"Wrong again"? Wow, great way to start an argument.

You didnt actually address the argument at all. You did not address that the TL-bolters are indeed a weapon, a weapon that the lord has, and can therefore be replced.

Please, do so. Please argue the actual rules, as you have yet to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Wrong again"? Wow, great way to start an argument.

You didnt actually address the argument at all. You did not address that the TL-bolters are indeed a weapon, a weapon that the lord has, and can therefore be replced.

Please, do so. Please argue the actual rules, as you have yet to do so.

I see it as the Lord has a bike equipped with T/L bolters. Guess it could just be semantics.

The lord has a bike that has TL Bolters. The lord has, transitively, bolters.

The lord's bike has TL-bolters, the lord himself, just comes with a pistol. The upgraded weapons options replace the pistol or close-combat weapon, correct?

No, it states (as has been stated a few times now) the lords weapons. They do not specify bolt pistol / chainsword.

So the lord has tl-bolters, because his bike does. These are weapons. These can be exchanged

Prove otherwise.

What nos said. For the full reasoning why treating them as separate entities fails, check my post bottom of page 1. I'm not saying it's a definite yes but that point cannot work. The wargear says any weapon so it's hard to see how the tl boltgun doesn't count.

To argue that you cannot replace the bike combi-bolter is to argue it is not one of the Chaos Lord's weapons and, therefore, he cannot fire it anyway.

 jmurph wrote:
To argue that you cannot replace the bike combi-bolter is to argue it is not one of the Chaos Lord's weapons and, therefore, he cannot fire it anyway.

Guess it can't fire than.

Pg 45 BGB " Each bike ... in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike"

That just says how many weapons you can fire; it does not say who has to have the weapon.

The bike has permission to fire. It does not have permission to use the riders BS. Saying the bike is separate means it can never shoot as it is BS-.

I say yes, for two reasons.

First off, why the hell not? Exactly what kind of an unfair advantage do you gain if you're allowed to do this?

Second, it just makes sense. You're telling me a Chaos lord would never rip the bolters off his bike and replace them with flamers, just to be more terrifying? Are you kidding me? That sounds freaking awesome.

It definately fits in the fluff. I feel like the RAW argument could go either way, The real question for the RAW is "Is the weapon on the bike considered to be the bikes? or is it the lords?"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That just says how many weapons you can fire; it does not say who has to have the weapon.

It does say the bike can fire, not the rider. Odd wording eh

Irrelevant wording, regardless of how odd it is.
It does not describe the weapon belonging to the bike, and since it is purchased as part of the wargear FOR the lord, it is a piece of wargear that belongs to the lord and can be exchanged as such.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I didn't contest that the bike didn't have allowance to fire, only the fact that its lack of BS prevents it from doing so.

My bolter doesn't have a listed BS either, and its wargear. My powersword doesn't have a WS listed... so either no wargear can use its weapon properties, or they all can

You're misinterpretting what I said; I'm not saying the weapons themselves need BS values, I'm saying that the bike would, since, as has been quoted many times, the bike is the one that has allowance to fire a weapon, not its rider.

Either the TL bolter on the bike actually does belong to the lord, and he can therefore switch it out (or fire it using his BS, since it would be his weapon), or the TL bolter belongs to the bike, in which case it cannot ever be used due to the bike not having a BS value with which to fire it.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It definately fits in the fluff. I feel like the RAW argument could go either way, The real question for the RAW is "Is the weapon on the bike considered to be the bikes? or is it the lords?"

Well, we have 2 options and 2 very different results from those options.

1) The bolters are the Bikes weapon and cannot be replaced. This, however, means that the Lord cannot EVER shoot the bolters because they arn't his weapon to shoot. The bike can shoot them, but sadly has no BS.

2) The Bike and the Bolters on the Bike belong to the Lord. He can thus rip the bolters off and stick whatever the hell he wants in their place, and he can shoot the weapon.


One of the options makes sense and doesn't cause the rules to break.

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) The bolters are the Bikes weapon and cannot be replaced. This, however, means that the Lord cannot EVER shoot the bolters because they arn't his weapon to shoot. The bike can shoot them, but sadly has no BS.

Why can't he shoot the bikes weapon?

Nothing in the Shooting section restricts it, and the Bike section allows each rider to shoot one weapon.

Actually, it says you can shoot one weapon per rider. Not each rider can shoot one weapon.

Right, "Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike." (AKA each rider can shoot one weapon.)

Why can't he shoot the bikes weapon?

Nothing in the Shooting section restricts it.

Because, as people are arguing here, the Lord actually doesn't have the weapon. The Bike does.

The only way the lord can shoot the Bikes weapon is if he owns it. And by extension if he owns it it MUST be a legal option for swapping for a different weapon.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way the lord can shoot the Bikes weapon is if he owns it.

Got a rules quote that confirms this?

Got a rules quote that says he can just shoot any weapon he wants?

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with, or a Gun Emplacement or Emplaced Gun.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

Page 12. Nominating units to shoot.

"During the Shooting Phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

As the lord is not armed with a TL-bolter, by your assertion that it is the bike's weapon, he clearly cannot fire it.


This is clearly rediclous. Thus the Lord is armed with a TL-bolter when he purchases a bike. And thus is a weapon he can trade out.

That quote does not say "Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with."

It just says that "a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks"

Nominating a unit to shoot is the first step in the shooting sequence on P. 12.

Do you have a quote that says:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

They say the same thing.

Armed = equipped

You are asserting that:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

I can not find anywhere that says that in the BRB.

"During the Shooting Phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

All this says is that you can nominate a unit to make a shooting attack if that unit is armed with/equipped with ranged weapons. It does not say that a model can only shoot a weapon they are armed/equipped with. Note it says units can be nominated to make shooting attacks, as that is the first step in the shooting sequence.

It is different than what you are asserting.

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

A permissive ruleset is where it says this. If it dosent say you can fire a weapon that belongs to something else, then you cant fire a weapon that belongs to something else. Its that simple. Its like me saying "Well I'll get into B2B with my allied detatchment of Tau and fire their weapons!"

Not legit at all.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

I gathered the OP was talking about Lords and Sorc since they mentioned taking the Burning Brand of Skalathrax in place of the combi-bolter? I replied that the answer was no since the lord does not follow the same rules as CSM bikers and there for doesn't get the same options. He gets a standard bike with combi bolter. That is all. His bike does not have have options unless you can quote me specifically where it say it does? No I didn't think so..

If he were able to, it would say he was able to just like it says for CSM bikers.

I also mentioned it saying he has the combi bolter over the twin linked boltgun (even though they are essentially the same), because I believe to further differentiate him from being a regular CSM biker. Not that it needs it of course... then again, maybe it does.

Von Marlon wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.

A) you should read the thread, the op is not saying what you think he is say6ing.

and 2)The Chaos Bike for the biker and the chaos bike for the Lord/Sorc are exacty the same bike; the statement that one somehow has a different set of bolters is nonsense (and irrelevant anyways).

I gathered the OP was talking about Lords and Sorc since they mentioned taking the Burning Brand of Skalathrax in place of the combi-bolter? I replied that the answer was no since the lord does not follow the same rules as CSM bikers and there for doesn't get the same options. He gets a standard bike with combi bolter. That is all. His bike does not have have options unless you can quote me specifically where it say it does? No I didn't think so..

If he were able to, it would say he was able to just like it says for CSM bikers.

I also mentioned it saying he has the combi bolter over the twin linked boltgun (even though they are essentially the same), because I believe to further differentiate him from being a regular CSM biker. Not that it needs it of course... then again, maybe it does.

Chaos Lord, pg 93: "May take items from the ... Chaos Artefacts sections of the wargear list."

Chaos Wargear list - Chaos Artefacts, pg 91: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

Either the the combi-bolter on the bike becomes the Lord's weapon, and can therefore be switched out for the brand, or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

Where is the permission to fire a weapon he does have, I must be missing it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

Where is the permission to fire a weapon he does have, I must be missing it.

Page 12 under "Nominate Unit to Shoot"

That only says that the unit can be nominated to make a shooting attack if one or more models in the unit has a shooting weapon.

"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks" P.12 (This does not state each model may shoot a weapon he owns, it talks about nominating a unit to make a shooting attack).

Where is the permission to fire a weapon a model has?

I seriously can not find anything saying "A model can fire one of his own weapons in the shooting phase" Or similar.

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

I'd classify it more as a bolter with a one shot sub "thingy" comparably to a HKM on a Vehicle.
Gonna look up some combi's be back to discuss further, might even turn a 180 altogether.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, you can't trade out part of the combi-weapon as its one weapon with 2 firing modes(like Krak and Frag on a missile launcher)

You could trade the whole thing for something else.

I'd classify it more as a bolter with a one shot sub "thingy" comparably to a HKM on a Vehicle.
Gonna look up some combi's be back to discuss further, might even turn a 180 altogether.

The rulebook calls it an extra weapon just saying.

pg 56 second paragraph. COmbi weapons

Isn't that what I said?

Its a bolter with a second firing mode that happens to have one shot.


You know what I would have liked? Some piece of terrain that allows you to Re-arm one shot weapons, maybe one of the objectives or a purchasable fortification.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Isn't that what I said?

Its a bolter with a second firing mode that happens to have one shot.


You know what I would have liked? Some piece of terrain that allows you to Re-arm one shot weapons, maybe one of the objectives or a purchasable fortification.

Read the rules for Combi's they're classified as being a seperate weapon. Not just a firing mode.

I'd say no you can not trade out the bike weapons. It seems a bit beardy to try and do so. You buy all your wargear at once so techically you do not even have the bike when you purchase additional wargear.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

 Exergy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

Thats nice and all however the BRB lists it as 2 seperate weapons. The lord may trade out any weapon, so I will opt to trade out the plasma portion.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:


...or it is the bike's weapon, and cannot be swapped out but also cannot be fired since the Lord doesn't own it and does not have permission to fire a weapon he does not have, and because the bike does not have a BS value with which to fire it.

You can use your wargear. It's his wargear. If I have armour which gives me an attack or an amulet with a shotting attack, you think it needs to specifically state that I'm allowed to use the model's BS to fire... maybe they figured that when you give a model a skill for shooting and wargear that can shoot that the player could connect that dot.

If it's his wargear, then he can switch it out since it's one of his weapons.

So than I can trade out the Plasma part of a combi -plas?

It's his weapon, it has two distinct firing modes/components of Bolter/plasma

no because combi-plas are special versions of combi bolters that can fire once per game as a plasma. note they are twinlinked because they are combibolters, not bolters and further they isnt plasma gun. the combi bolter can fire as a plasma once per game.

Thats nice and all however the BRB lists it as 2 seperate weapons. The lord may trade out any weapon, so I will opt to trade out the plasma portion.

Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.


This is why you're wrong

"Proflles for the following ranged weapons are listed
on the summary page (pg 105). Their full rules can be
found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. pg 65 C:CSM

"combi-weapons" From the list below

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.

Page 65, top left corner: Profiles for the listed weapons in the box, have their full rules found in the Warhammer 40K rulebook.

Happyjew wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Combiplas for CSM are listed in the CSM codex, which trumps the BRB.

Can I get a pg #?

Not seeing it on pg 65 with the other ranged weapons.

Page 65, top left corner: Profiles for the listed weapons in the box, have their full rules found in the Warhammer 40K rulebook.

Which tells me to refer to the BGB?

Which tells me they're seperate weapons

Exactly. You can purchase a combi-weapon and then trade away either part as the BRB specifically says they are two separate weapons. You can also trade away your grenades, heck, you could even argue that since the bike allows you to make a HoW attack it too is a weapon (though I think that would be pushing it).

If you we're allowed to further modify the bike, it would be stated as an option under the entry, which it doesn't so you can't exchanged the weapon on the bike for something else.

An example is the Helbrute which has a power fist. There are options listed to further modify the power fist arm or even purchase another one.

The listing of the bike does not purvide with further options, so it cannot be modified in any way.
The listed options under the chaos bikers do not apply to The Lord as he isn't a part of that entry.

So no, buying a bike does not provide you with a further weapon for you to trade away.

You have permission as it is a weapon the lord "has"

Find explicit denial of that permission; or, find something saying it is not a weapon the lord "has"

Anything else is your unsupported opinion, unrelated to the written rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have permission as it is a weapon the lord "has"

Find explicit denial of that permission; or, find something saying it is not a weapon the lord "has"

Anything else is your unsupported opinion, unrelated to the written rules

So I can trade in the Bolter for a combi-flamer. Trade the flamer portion for a combi-melta, and the Bolter portion for a combi-plasma?

Sure, you have 2 one shot weapons.

Pretty useless for the point cost.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, you have 2 one shot weapons.

Pretty useless for the point cost.

No, he would have a combi-melta, and a combi-plasma, if that were allowed, so 2 boltguns and 2 one shot weapons.

Ahhh, indeed. you are correct.

Of course you are paying the points for 3 combi-weapons to get 2 so I don't see a fairness issue.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ahhh, indeed. you are correct.

Of course you are paying the points for 3 combi-weapons to get 2 so I don't see a fairness issue.

Of course instead you could buy a combi-flamer, trade the bolter for a combi-melta, trade the bolter for a combi-plasma. Now you have a combi-flamer-melta-plasma.

Which you have now paid 3 for 3 combi-weapons. Real expensive.

Not to mention every mode only gets one shot. Somehow I dont see this becoming meta

Under Melee weapons, Ranged Weapons and Chaos Artefacts it says "A model can replace one weapon" not one bolt pistol, not one ccw, not one weapon that he started with, not one weapon that is not on a bike, but JUST weapon.

Actually, the melee section does say bolt pistol and/or close combat weapon


I'm unsure, but I'm going to say no.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
If you we're allowed to further modify the bike, it would be stated as an option under the entry, which it doesn't so you can't exchanged the weapon on the bike for something else.

An example is the Helbrute which has a power fist. There are options listed to further modify the power fist arm or even purchase another one.

The listing of the bike does not purvide with further options, so it cannot be modified in any way.
The listed options under the chaos bikers do not apply to The Lord as he isn't a part of that entry.

So no, buying a bike does not provide you with a further weapon for you to trade away.

terminator armor comes with a combi bolter and a power weapon and you can modify those by swapping them out for additional weapons. It does not explicitly say you can swap them out in the rules, but you can.