A large part of the GW40K universe is made up by the Black Library pulications on the stories, battles, and generall fluff. I'm wondering if BL has written enough stories and background to raval Star Wars? Thoughts?
Star Wars has a much bigger library and the Star Wars universes is a lot more developed.
But more developed is not necessarily better. 40k makes good use of unreliable narration, so discontinuity and plot holes are part of the fun. No matter what you read in 40k you never really know if you are getting the “real” story.
Since Star Wars has tight creative controls over the license you can’t have nearly as much creative freedom in that universe as you can in 40K.
The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.
If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.
Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.
Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.
Star Wars fluff has superior consistency by virtue of its canon organization. That doesn't stop huge swaths of it from being utter crap though. Pretty much everything post-RotJ is garbage with the exception of a few novels.
The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.
If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.
Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.
Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.
This. Actually, because of the amount of free reign in the BL novels, it can even make certain fan created works and other stuff seem credible.
IHateNids wrote: So, The Galactic Empire declares war on the Imperium of Man, and marches on the Milky Way through a Time Rift.
What happens?
Horrible slaugther of the GE fleets because they have no hyperspace routes here.
Oh god, it sounds like this all over again, only replacing Federation with Imperium of man.
The biggest issues would be figuring out the following:
Industrial Capacity and Territory holdings (how fast does it take to make ships/weapons and how many planets can provide men)
Propulsion Technology (how quickly can they traverse the galaxy)
Weapons (This includes all ship-based weapons, not including things like torpedoes or missiles)
Torpedoes (would also include missiles)
Shields (what protects the ship)
Sensors (self-explanatory)
Communications (range and other limitations)
Power Generation (self-explanatory)
Special Technology (includes things not listed in the above categories)
IHateNids wrote: So, The Galactic Empire declares war on the Imperium of Man, and marches on the Milky Way through a Time Rift.
What happens?
Byebye Galactic empire fleet, the moment they go to hyperspace they die because in the 40k Hyperspace is the warp, Geller field is different than normal shield! Darth vader will become a demon prince "Feel the dark chaos!"
Honestly we can't really say. Would the force exist? Would it not? Would by arriving they would be a heard of foolish humans and Xenos easy to get claimed by the gods of chaos? Do they register in the warp? Is the warp only in the galaxy or is it the universe but only concentrate where life is so they are split apart? Would they run into a Tyranid rush, would Eldar IG and even tau temporarily unite to Devestate them? What planet are they attacking (many have crazy anti space), is the warp in the mood to help, would the empire break down in panic?
Also does the GE have time to set up travel points?
The problem is we don't have the necessary information.
For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour? What about a Lascannon? Can it puncture an AT-AT's heavy armour plating? How will IoM deal with planet destroyers such as the Death Star, or even the Sun Crusher? How quickly can the IoM respond to attacks half-way across the galaxy?
Assuming a stable wormhole opened up, how soon would anyone know about it and be able to respond? If the opening is in a remote enough area, the Empire would easily be able to send millions of probes and within a few days have a map of the Milky Way. They would then be able to jump from planet to planet and due to the fickle nature of the Warp, who knows when the Imperium will be able to respond.
It would be an interesting battle thats for sure. but, I think las-shots can penetrate stormtrooper armor, I don't see the blasters that they use as much better than the lasuns the IG use. lascannons would probably penetrate the armor of the AT-AT but not the bigger ones and god save me I for the life of me cannot remember what they are called.
IHateNids wrote: So, The Galactic Empire declares war on the Imperium of Man, and marches on the Milky Way through a Time Rift.
What happens?
Horrible slaugther of the GE fleets because they have no hyperspace routes here.
Oh god, it sounds like this all over again, only replacing Federation with Imperium of man.
The biggest issues would be figuring out the following:
Industrial Capacity and Territory holdings (how fast does it take to make ships/weapons and how many planets can provide men)
Propulsion Technology (how quickly can they traverse the galaxy)
Weapons (This includes all ship-based weapons, not including things like torpedoes or missiles)
Torpedoes (would also include missiles)
Shields (what protects the ship)
Sensors (self-explanatory)
Communications (range and other limitations)
Power Generation (self-explanatory)
Special Technology (includes things not listed in the above categories)
And then added to this, how long would it take to retro-engineer the clever/unique gubbins of the other side and either create a hard counter, or just nick the technology and put it into general use. Invariably it falls down to which universe a correspondant prefers and how much handwavium they need to expend in justifying the comparison of oranges to neutron stars.
Well, interestingly, the Imperium doesn't seem to be able to respond to things very quick. I think it was one of your posts that said they take on average 100 days to retaliate with a sizable force, which in most cases is too late.
And yes, it is the problem with 40k as a whole that not enough information is given.
But, I do think we can assume that a Lasgun is slightly weaken than a GE Blaster Rifle, due to the fact that Lasbolts don't leave 8" wide craters on walls that they have hit.
The force would exist because AFAIK it comes from the midichlorians that are within every living thing.
Warp Presence, not sure. I would assume so. A small one, like an individual Guardsman
A Lascannon would be at least equal to if not have more hitting power than the weaponry on an AT-ST, and as seen in RotJ, on AT-ST can easily take out another.
The Imperium would deal with the planet killers much like it deals with everything else big and dangerous: sending something bigger and dangerouser (totally a word)
I think its the rest of the races in 40k that the GE would have the trouble with.
Tau weapons will easily tear through the armour of the GE
Necrons will have the GE gakking its pants, due to the fact they don't fight stuff that just doesnt die.
Space Marines might be able to get a decent strike off, but after that, they fall to greater numbers.
And then, the weapons themselves: Will Battle Cannon shells do anything at all to AT-AT/STs? Will the power field on a power weapon stop a Lightsabre? Will Bolts pierce Stormtrooper armour?
IHateNids wrote: Hyperspace is not a dimension change. They literally just go just faster than the speed of light, so no Deamons for trouble.
Star Destroyers will more than give a Cruiser a run for its money surely.
Eh... pretty sure it says everywhere that Hyperspace is a sort of an alternate dimension or parallel universe, because the writers are smart/lazy enough not to make starships go over the speed of light, lest they be dealing with massive unanswerable scientific and technological difficulties relating to FTL travel.
raiden wrote: It would be an interesting battle thats for sure. but, I think las-shots can penetrate stormtrooper armor, I don't see the blasters that they use as much better than the lasuns the IG use. lascannons would probably penetrate the armor of the AT-AT but not the bigger ones and god save me I for the life of me cannot remember what they are called.
Blasters have an effective range of 100m with a maximum range of about 300m (SW Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)
M36 Lasgun has an effective range of 100m with a maximum range of 400m (Only War)
Blaster clips have 100 shots and can either be fired in semi-auto or full auto (though full auto is not recommended, as it throws the alignment out of whack).
Lasgun clips have 60 shots and can either be fired as single shot or semi-auto (Only War). According to Lexicanum and Wahammer 40K wiki it is single shot or Full auto.
Power is harder to quantify. The only known power output of a lasgun is 19 Megathules. But nobody knows what a megathule is.
Blasters on the other hand...The power of this gun is nearly difficult to quantify, but we've seen that it has much more knock-down power than a modern SMG or even a carbine. It can heat stormtrooper chest-plate armour to red-hot, it can blast grapefruit-sized chunks out of the Bespin walls and small pockmarks out of Death Star bulkheads, and it can even kill a man with the explosive shockwave from a near-miss. This latter capability indicates high-velocity fragmentation from the explosive power of the impact, and it was demonstrated twice in ANH: once during the Death Star detention centre break-in, when an officer was killed by a hit to the wall behind him, and once during the "Tarzan scene", when Leia fired at a stormtrooper on the upper level, hit the wall directly behind his head, and killed him with the resulting shrapnel (it must have pierced the large flexible rubber section just beneath the back of his helmet). However, it can't penetrate the armour of Death Star blast doors or the forcefields used in Death Star garbage compactors. The explosive power of a blaster rifle shot may explain the utility of stormtrooper armour; like modern infantry body armour, it protects against shrapnel and glancing hits (unless they happen to hit a flexible joint area), but it can't stop a direct hit.
IHateNids wrote: Hyperspace is not a dimension change. They literally just go just faster than the speed of light, so no Deamons for trouble.
Star Destroyers will more than give a Cruiser a run for its money surely.
Eh... pretty sure it says everywhere that Hyperspace is a sort of an alternate dimension or parallel universe, because the writers are smart/lazy enough not to make starships go over the speed of light, lest they be dealing with massive unanswerable scientific and technological difficulties relating to FTL travel.
It is unknown how Hyperspace works. It has alternately been described as a parallel universe, an extra dimension of space, an alternate mode of physical existence, or simply the universe as viewed traveling faster than the speed of light.
What about Blasters and Turbolasers? Many blasters use plasma based technology, so would that factor into their damage potential?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about Blasters and Turbolasers? Many blasters use plasma based technology, so would that factor into their damage potential?
IHateNids wrote: A Lascannon would be at least equal to if not have more hitting power than the weaponry on an AT-ST, and as seen in RotJ, on AT-ST can easily take out another.
I agree that a lascannon would have no problem with AT-STs. Even without actual numbers, I'm fairly certain it would have more energy then two swinging tree trunks. AT-ATs are a horse of a different colour. Those are the massive 4-legged walkers whose only known weak point would be the neck joint (and even then it required the rebels to trip them up to get a clean shot)
The Imperium would deal with the planet killers much like it deals with everything else big and dangerous: sending something bigger and dangerouser (totally a word)
What though? The first Death Star only had a single flaw, a small thermal exhaust port. Even then it was only through the Force that Luke was able to make the shot. The Death Star II was incomplete when it was attacked. Had it been completed there would have been no chance to destroy it. The Suncrusher on the other hand is a very small ship that was designed to withstand anything thrown at it, including a blast from the Death Star (which puts out 1E38 joules in a single shot. For those who don't know that is a 1 followed by 38 0's (100000000000000000000000000000000000000) joules).
And then, the weapons themselves: Will Battle Cannon shells do anything at all to AT-AT/STs?
AT-STs definitely see above regarding lascannons. AT-ATs who knows.
Will the power field on a power weapon stop a Lightsabre?
Without knowing the properties of how power weapons work this cannot be determined.
Will Bolts pierce Stormtrooper armour?
If they hit in the black rubber joint sections, definitely. If they hit the white armour, more than likely not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, I hope everyone is having as much fun with this as I am.
The GE doesn't have any capable enemies in its setting with which to wage a war where as the IoM has multiple opponents so the GE would be at one disadvantage due to it not being in the practice of waging war in the first place. This would be a mental set back instead of a physical one. They are essentially just a police force but the GE setting isn't grim dark enough to compare with the 40k one.
Mellow wrote: The GE doesn't have any capable enemies in its setting with which to wage a war where as the IoM has multiple opponents so the GE would be at one disadvantage due to it not being in the practice of waging war in the first place. This would be a mental set back instead of a physical one. They are essentially just a police force but the GE setting isn't grim dark enough to compare with the 40k one.
Actually the GE does have a capable enemy in its setting - the Rebel Alliance (aka traitors).
Fluffwise, EU is more specific. But its full of greater artistic license and poor quality writing. BL has better quality control.
As for the GE vs Imperium, Imperium all the way.
The GE has a silly small army. We're talking numbers only in the low millions. You want writers with no sense of scale, Star Wars makes GW numbers seem plausible.
The GE is also NOT a totally unified place. Even at it's height, the Empire didn't have anywhere near the proper utilization of resources that the Imperium has.
If the Imperium needs an army, they can raise billions of Guardsmen within a few years. Only slowed down by communication and bureaucracy. But once the wheels are turning there is no stopping them.
The GE doesn't have the political clout to raise an army of trillions, which is what would be required to even stand a snowflake's chance in hell against the Imperium in open battle. In the Imperium, they raise billions of new soldiers each day. Soldiers who are utterly dedicated and fanatical. Nothing in Star Wars can compare.
Also discounting the difference in ship size and armament. The main ship of the line of the GE is barely pulling the same tonnage as an Imperial Escort. Imperial ships fight opponents at distances of millions of kilometers. The GE ships would be taking fire before they even knew what was happening. Not to mention being unable to track the Imperium's ships, who would literally be popping out of nowhere.
The Imperium does have poor reaction time to threats, but that wouldn't be a problem. The GE might have some successes for a few years until the Imperial counter-blow arrives and smashes the GE forces like tin cans.
The best weapon the entire GE could make was the Death Star. A single space station capable of destroying an entire planet.
In the Imperium, any ship with Torpedo tubes is capable of destroying a planet provided they have access to Cyclonic Torpedoes. A couple skyscraper sized missiles can accomplish the same thing as a moon sized battle-station.
Mellow wrote: The GE doesn't have any capable enemies in its setting with which to wage a war where as the IoM has multiple opponents so the GE would be at one disadvantage due to it not being in the practice of waging war in the first place. This would be a mental set back instead of a physical one. They are essentially just a police force but the GE setting isn't grim dark enough to compare with the 40k one.
Actually the GE does have a capable enemy in its setting - the Rebel Alliance (aka traitors).
Which really just says how sad the affairs in the GE are.
They were brought down by at most a few million active dissidents when they had an entire Galaxy at their disposal.
It could, and should, have taken centuries of warfare to overthrow the Galactic Empire given the scale of things.
Grey Templar wrote: Fluffwise, EU is more specific. But its full of greater artistic license and poor quality writing. BL has better quality control.
Better quality control? Do I need to mention C.S. Goto and his infamous Eldar steal tanks, and worship Slaanesh (including Eldrad). What about his Landraider to Razorback conversion? EU has very tight restrictions on SW.
If the Imperium needs an army, they can raise billions of Guardsmen within a few years. Only slowed down by communication and bureaucracy. But once the wheels are turning there is no stopping them.
And how quickly can they get them to where they need to be? The IoM might have the manpower, but when the enemy can jump across the galaxy in a matter of hours, no matter how many men you have you'll never be able to react in a timely fashion.
Also discounting the difference in ship size and armament. The main ship of the line of the GE is barely pulling the same tonnage as an Imperial Escort. Imperial ships fight opponents at distances of millions of kilometers.
The problem is ISDs jump right to within weapons range, so there is no shooting from millions of kilometers.
The best weapon the entire GE could make was the Death Star. A single space station capable of destroying an entire planet.
And the Sun Crusher which destroys whole systems. I've yet to hear of any IoM weapon capable of causing a star to go nova.
In the Imperium, any ship with Torpedo tubes is capable of destroying a planet provided they have access to Cyclonic Torpedoes. A couple skyscraper sized missiles can accomplish the same thing as a moon sized battle-station.
Do said torpedoes make the planet inhabitable, or does it completely destroy the planet into asteroid sized chunks? How well does it handle planetary shields? How quickly does it destroy the planet?
Which really just says how sad the affairs in the GE are.
They were brought down by at most a few million active dissidents when they had an entire Galaxy at their disposal.
First the movies only show a small portion of the war. Even then, the only reason the Emperor dies was due to his own overconfidence. And some luck on the side of the rebels. Even then it was years before the "Galactic Alliance" finally took control of Coruscant and even longer before they completely defeated the Galactic Empire (which really ended in a truce).
Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.
EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.
Actually, a number of Stormtroopers that were killed by Ewoks, were knocked down to ground where the Ewoks would have had easy access to the weak rubber joints.
The actual armour portion of stormtrooper armour is rather strong. When a person in armour is hit by a thrown spear hard enough to be thrown across the room, and the armour only has a small nick, that is some pretty well made armour.
The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.
If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.
Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.
Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.
That's only partially true, as for a long time (don't know the current status), almost all Starwars stuff not directly put out by Lucasfilm was specified to be not cannon. Shadows of the Empire, which came out long after a very huge bulk of Starwars fluff was the first ever recognized by Lucas as official cannon bit of fluff.
So the Solo kids, Splinter of the Minds Eye (Luke and Vader's first fight 'in the flesh'), Grand Admiral Thrawn, and others were all completely 'servitors popping wheelies' (in Splinter of the Mind's eye Vader effectively flies, not hyper leaps, but basically flies, and shoots Ken/Ryu Hadookens at Luke). This could be different, but as far as I know, there are only a few truly cannon bits of Star Wars fluff (and there are stuff just as crazy in the novels/fluff for Starwars as 'wheelie popping servitors). They do, however, try to play nicely with each other better than the BL does.
raiden wrote: It would be an interesting battle thats for sure. but, I think las-shots can penetrate stormtrooper armor, I don't see the blasters that they use as much better than the lasuns the IG use. lascannons would probably penetrate the armor of the AT-AT but not the bigger ones and god save me I for the life of me cannot remember what they are called.
From what I recall, and I don't know that it is official, but Blasters are "more powerful"l than laser weapons in Star Wars. They're more of a particle beam/plasma type weapon than a raw laser, and the blaster has largely replaced the laser in most cases as it is all round better.
The AT-AT (All Terrain Armoured Transport if memory serves) is the name of the big one, the AT-ST (All Terrain Scout Transport) is the chicken walker that you are likely thinking of.
As for Star Wars, the same individual asked similar questions of Leland Chee (maintainer of the Star Wars Holocron, which is an internal continuity database which is kept secret from the public and which informs Star Wars authors what they must stay consistent to), and he responded with this:
The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly, there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.
I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.
When challenged by certain agenda-driven individuals who claimed that they studied George Lucas' public interviews and therefore knew his intentions better than people who worked with him professionally, Mr. Chee further clarified with this:
All contradictions are dealt with case-by-case ... Does LucasFilm Ltd. itself actually have a Canon Policy? No. ... The quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not.
So in summary, the policy of Lucasfilm is that the books count, although not as highly as the movies.
Interesting, I know when Shadows of the Empire came out it was a huge deal that is was the first official Starwars spin off. The game, book, and comic were sold as the first bits to be 'yes that really happened'. At the time I want to say Lucas had a 'this is neat, and you can follow it if you want, but it has no bearing on anything' attitude towards anything not the original trilogy and Shadows.
I cannot remember now if that was also held to be true for Shadows of the Force (obviously only one of the two endings could actually occur, but it got into the ludicrous realm with pulling Star Destroyers into a planet, flying jedi, and a guy who pretty effortlessly beat the carp out of both Vader and the Emperor).
All Terrain Assault Transport, but you weren't far off
The Scout Walkers are also probably at least the size of a Dreadnought if not bigger, and the AT-ATs would probably be able to stand on at least half of a Chimera/Rhino with one foot, and not even at Max Firepower should easily be able to one-shot a Land Raider, seeing as how it one-shotted a Shield Generator about 4 times it's size when at max.
And really, if something can get brought down by wrapping its legs in tow cables its not much of a threat. I mean its already a sitting duck for any antitank weapon the imperium has within 10 kilometers and it doesn't even have the mobility of a Titan to save it.
The AT-AT also doesn't have shields, only armor. So the first war hound that comes along is just going to one shot it. Or even a formation of LRBTs will knock it over with multiple battle cannon rounds.
Of course, it is only a transport not a battle tank.
The AT-AT's poor close-in combat capability is simply the inevitable side-effect of its sheer size and power. Real-life heavy armour is similarly limited at short ranges, hence the need for support from light vehicles and infantry. In the case of the AT-AT, it derives close-range support from its AT-ST escorts, which were seen in both TESB and ROTJ. While the AT-STs cannot do battle with enemy artillery, assault fortifications, and destroy large structures, they can support the vehicles which can, by keeping their flanks clear of infantry and light vehicles. This is a good example of the sort of complementary weapon classes which normally work together in real-life armies, as well as the Imperial army.
Grey Templar wrote: Somehow, I'm not impressed by a vehicle which exploded when it was sandwitched between a couple logs or loses its balance so easily.
Happyjew wrote: The problem is we don't have the necessary information.
For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour?
I should hope so, considering 2 foot teddy bears with rocks and sticks managed to trash a battalion of stormtroopers
To anyone else remembering Endor, just remember that most of the little fuzz balls and main characters had plot armor. That's a 0+ armor save, in 40k terms.
kinratha wrote: Well this will turn into a "My made up world is better then your made up world"
My votes on 40k
But i'm sure there will be someone alone shorty to tell me that im wrong.
I disagree. Seeing as how we do not have hard number, or the necessary information to calculate the numbers needed, we can't really make comparisons. For example, assuming Earth-like in nature, it is not that hard to calculate the mount of energy required to destroy a planet in less than 4 seconds (as seen in Star Wars) would require 1E38 Joules. And this is on the low end.
Compared to Cyclonic Missiles (Two-Stage) we have no idea how quickly they would be able to destroy a planet.
Neither fictional world is "better" but they are different.
Omegus wrote: The Star Wars EU has plenty of good books, certainly better than most stuff from BL.
I disagree. Although I've only read about 10 BL novels (cf. ~40 SW), I generally find the quality to be much better on average. Although, when a Star Wars book is good, it is very very good. There are a great deal though that are utter drivel, perhaps I'm just lucky in my selection of BL titles so far?
kinratha wrote: Well this will turn into a "My made up world is better then your made up world"
My votes on 40k
But i'm sure there will be someone alone shorty to tell me that im wrong.
I disagree. Seeing as how we do not have hard number, or the necessary information to calculate the numbers needed, we can't really make comparisons. For example, assuming Earth-like in nature, it is not that hard to calculate the mount of energy required to destroy a planet in less than 4 seconds (as seen in Star Wars) would require 1E38 Joules. And this is on the low end.
Compared to Cyclonic Missiles (Two-Stage) we have no idea how quickly they would be able to destroy a planet.
Neither fictional world is "better" but they are different.
How many Imperial navy ships have cyclonic missles?And how many GE ships have a death star super laser?
Orblivion wrote: Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.
EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.
both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.
At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.
In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.
Happyjew wrote: The problem is we don't have the necessary information.
For example, how powerful is a Las-shot? Can it make it through Stormtrooper armour?
I should hope so, considering 2 foot teddy bears with rocks and sticks managed to trash a battalion of stormtroopers
More like a 2+ save, 2+ invuln save reroll able, and a 2+ FNP (just a small enough chance for them to kill main characters)
To anyone else remembering Endor, just remember that most of the little fuzz balls and main characters had plot armor. That's a 0+ armor save, in 40k terms.
The authors of the Black Library are given pretty much free reign to write whatever they want in their stories, and are not constrained by the information provided in the Codices or in any other BL novel, FW publication, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal or any other source of 40K information.
If a BL author wants to write a love story between an Eldar Farseer and a Space Wolf, resulting in furry cubs with pointy ears, s/he can totally do that. If a BL author wants to have the Rhinos driven by wise-cracking servitors that pop wheelies (trackies?) and do sick... and by "sick" I mean "totally sweet"... jumps, s/he can.
Star Wars writers? They can't really do that in most cases. There are well-established boundaries of what things can and cannot do. AT-STs don't tap-dance, for example. The tech is, within the universe, fairly well-established and categorized around what it can and cannot do.
Most importantly, the Star Wars fandom has an established order of canon, based on sources, of what overwrites what. It starts at things George Lucas says and goes down to things like video games, comic books, and other, third-party products. Basically, though, something in Star Wars is canon until something with a higher rank in the canon comes along and contradicts it. Some things, though, like the Star Wars Infinities comic books, are universally non-canon.
That's only partially true, as for a long time (don't know the current status), almost all Starwars stuff not directly put out by Lucasfilm was specified to be not cannon. Shadows of the Empire, which came out long after a very huge bulk of Starwars fluff was the first ever recognized by Lucas as official cannon bit of fluff.
So the Solo kids, Splinter of the Minds Eye (Luke and Vader's first fight 'in the flesh'), Grand Admiral Thrawn, and others were all completely 'servitors popping wheelies' (in Splinter of the Mind's eye Vader effectively flies, not hyper leaps, but basically flies, and shoots Ken/Ryu Hadookens at Luke). This could be different, but as far as I know, there are only a few truly cannon bits of Star Wars fluff (and there are stuff just as crazy in the novels/fluff for Starwars as 'wheelie popping servitors). They do, however, try to play nicely with each other better than the BL does.
The important bits, because a lot of that article is long and repetitive:
Wookieepedia wrote: In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity-tracking database referred to as the Holocron continuity database. The Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years, but the capabilities of database software allow for each element of a story, rather than the stories themselves, to be classified on their own merits. The Holocron's database includes an area for a single-letter (G, T, C, S, N or D) representing the level of canonicity of that element; these letters have since informally been applied to the levels of canon themselves: G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon. As part of his work with the Holocron, Chee was responsible for the creation of this classification, and he spent the early stages developing and refining them into what they are today.
G, T, C and S together form the overall Star Wars continuity. Each ascending level typically overrides the lower ones; for example, Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, forcing the retcon of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story. However, this is not always absolute, and the resolution of all contradictions is handled on a case-by-case basis.
G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].
C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.
N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.
D is Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.
Star Wars is a much more developed universe and is much more maturely written. GW really has little idea what they're doing on just about every aspect of their product.
That being said EU has produced a lot of shlock over the years.
IoM wins, because a grizzled scarred helmetless Marine sergeant clad in the finest plot armour available to the Imperium of Man will clean the floor with the GE's face.
Orblivion wrote: Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.
EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.
both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.
At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.
In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.
Those cities are nearly always only one of up to several dozen than will dot a particular planet. So the average 40k hive world is going to have several trillion people at least.
And remember the definition of Billion when most of GW's numbers were written was the Imperial definition of Billion, which in our modern numerical designations is actually Trillion. So when GW gives the population of a planet in billions its actually in trillions.
Orblivion wrote: Whatever hyperspace might be, it at least isn't completely entering a parallel universe like warp travel is. Even in the movies it is specified that it is still possible to collide with objects in the material realm while in hyperspace. It is further expanded in the EU to explain that gravitational fields affect hyperspace, which is why the Empire's Interdictor Cruiser was so effective.
EDIT: I completely agree with Grey Templar's point about the ridiculous numbers we are given by Star Wars material. The "saviour" clone army deployed in the prequels originally numbered 200,000 troops to be deployed across an entire galaxy. Recent history shows us that the US had nearly double that number stationed in Iraq alone.
both universes, and star trek for that matter have real scaling problems. North Korea has more soldiers today than the IoM has space marines.
At least star wars has planets with 200+ billion people. 40k has hive cities with 10billion, slightly more than we have today on earth.
In any advanced star faring empire you are going to need new units of measure to talk about the number of people in any function. Current earth could probably support an army of 200 million, or 2*10^8. If you had 100,000 worlds one might expect you to have armies on the order of 10^15 in total war scenarios.
Those cities are nearly always only one of up to several dozen than will dot a particular planet. So the average 40k hive world is going to have several trillion people at least.
And remember the definition of Billion when most of GW's numbers were written was the Imperial definition of Billion, which in our modern numerical designations is actually Trillion. So when GW gives the population of a planet in billions its actually in trillions.
and in GW a burrito is an orgy but back OT if the IoM catches them (imo unlikely) with a sizable force I gotta give it to the IoM. numbers man, numbers.
I'm imagining storm troopers as models:
Imperial Stormtrooper- Unit of 10 or more, 2 pts per model
BsWs S T A W I Ld 1 N/A 3 0 1 1 3 7
Equipment: Flashlights, except they shoot out red light and sometimes smoke
They're terrible shots, never, ever do melee, getting hit period = insta-gib, and what the heck is this "armor" you speak of?
Essentially, the guardsmen would win because even shining their flashlights will be like a hot knife going through butter, and their foes are simply even more inaccurate then they are.
KommissarKiln wrote: I'm imagining storm troopers as models:
Imperial Stormtrooper- Unit of 10 or more, 2 pts per model
BsWs S T A W I Ld 1 N/A 3 0 1 1 3 7
Equipment: Flashlights, except they shoot out red light and sometimes smoke
They're terrible shots, never, ever do melee, getting hit period = insta-gib, and what the heck is this "armor" you speak of?
Essentially, the guardsmen would win because even shining their flashlights will be like a hot knife going through butter, and their foes are simply even more inaccurate then they are.
You are the only person I have seen make a Star wars to 40k statline for stormtroopers that wasn't Space marine stats. thank you.
Harriticus wrote: Star Wars is a much more developed universe and is much more maturely written.
You'll have to introduce me to the EU you're talking about. My experience has led me to believe it's basically gutter trash and a constant stream of writers trying to one-up each other.
KommissarKiln wrote: I'm imagining storm troopers as models:
Imperial Stormtrooper- Unit of 10 or more, 2 pts per model
BsWs S T A W I Ld 1 N/A 3 0 1 1 3 7
Equipment: Flashlights, except they shoot out red light and sometimes smoke
They're terrible shots, never, ever do melee, getting hit period = insta-gib, and what the heck is this "armor" you speak of?
Essentially, the guardsmen would win because even shining their flashlights will be like a hot knife going through butter, and their foes are simply even more inaccurate then they are.
Wow. Just wow.
We've seen that it has much more knock-down power than a modern SMG or even a carbine. It can heat stormtrooper chest-plate armour to red-hot, it can blast grapefruit-sized chunks out of the Bespin walls and small pockmarks out of Death Star bulkheads, and it can even kill a man with the explosive shockwave from a near-miss.When was the last time a las-gun knocked a man down just from the shot, or blew grapefruit size chunks out of metal?
A stormtrooper's body armour capabilities are very impressive. According to the SWVD, the hardened white shell is virtually immune to corrosion (very important considering the fact that corrosive gas grenades exist), and it can resist any hand-held projectile weapons. In fact, we learned in "Rebel Dawn" that stormtrooper armour is so well made that it commands a high price on the black market, which is why Han Solo was smuggling stolen armour for profit. Not once in any of the three original films did we see anything penetrate the hardened armour apart from a direct hit with a blaster bolt, although the rubberized flexible joint sections were obviously not quite so strong (numerous stormtroopers were killed by arrows to the flexible neck covering in ROTJ, and Leia killed one with a shrapnel hit to the wall behind him, taking advantage of that same small weak area). The novel "Lightsabres", from the Young Jedi Knights series, contains a sequence of events which helps demonstrate the mechanical strength of stormtrooper armour:
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."
Qorl's droid used its superhuman strength to throw a spear with such great force that it lifted a man off his feet and hurled him against a nearby wall. It should be noted that we have no materials in real life that can be manufactured in lightweight thin plates and yet retain such strength against deformation or cracking. Moreover, no real-life assault rifle fires projectiles with anywhere near enough momentum to throw a man around like a rag doll, so this means that stormtrooper armour is basically impervious to present-day small-arms fire (not to mention the shrapnel that is ejected by anti-personnel weapons). A real-life soldier would have to score direct hits with concussion grenades or use a very heavy tripod-mounted gun in order to kill a stormtrooper through his armour (contrast this with Federation soldiers, whose pajamas wouldn't be of much use against an M-16). Blaster bolts are much too powerful to block, but by blocking shrapnel, a stormtrooper's armour ensures that the enemy must score a direct hit in order to kill the man inside.
They actually have quite good aim. Some of the shots in ROTJ (hitting R2D2 and Leia from 30 metres away, with a quick snap shot) are actually very difficult. When they were on a mission where they were clearly ordered to shoot to kill, they shot to kill. When they were probably under orders not to shoot to kill, they shot to barely miss. Their accuracy was as good as that of real-life soldiers, who do not have the sort of ridiculous "Lethal Weapon" accuracy that some people think they do.
KommissarKiln wrote: I'm imagining storm troopers as models:
Imperial Stormtrooper- Unit of 10 or more, 2 pts per model
BsWs S T A W I Ld 1 N/A 3 0 1 1 3 7
Equipment: Flashlights, except they shoot out red light and sometimes smoke
They're terrible shots, never, ever do melee, getting hit period = insta-gib, and what the heck is this "armor" you speak of?
Essentially, the guardsmen would win because even shining their flashlights will be like a hot knife going through butter, and their foes are simply even more inaccurate then they are.
Wow. Just wow.
We've seen that it has much more knock-down power than a modern SMG or even a carbine. It can heat stormtrooper chest-plate armour to red-hot, it can blast grapefruit-sized chunks out of the Bespin walls and small pockmarks out of Death Star bulkheads, and it can even kill a man with the explosive shockwave from a near-miss.When was the last time a las-gun knocked a man down just from the shot, or blew grapefruit size chunks out of metal?
A stormtrooper's body armour capabilities are very impressive. According to the SWVD, the hardened white shell is virtually immune to corrosion (very important considering the fact that corrosive gas grenades exist), and it can resist any hand-held projectile weapons. In fact, we learned in "Rebel Dawn" that stormtrooper armour is so well made that it commands a high price on the black market, which is why Han Solo was smuggling stolen armour for profit. Not once in any of the three original films did we see anything penetrate the hardened armour apart from a direct hit with a blaster bolt, although the rubberized flexible joint sections were obviously not quite so strong (numerous stormtroopers were killed by arrows to the flexible neck covering in ROTJ, and Leia killed one with a shrapnel hit to the wall behind him, taking advantage of that same small weak area). The novel "Lightsabres", from the Young Jedi Knights series, contains a sequence of events which helps demonstrate the mechanical strength of stormtrooper armour:
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."
Qorl's droid used its superhuman strength to throw a spear with such great force that it lifted a man off his feet and hurled him against a nearby wall. It should be noted that we have no materials in real life that can be manufactured in lightweight thin plates and yet retain such strength against deformation or cracking. Moreover, no real-life assault rifle fires projectiles with anywhere near enough momentum to throw a man around like a rag doll, so this means that stormtrooper armour is basically impervious to present-day small-arms fire (not to mention the shrapnel that is ejected by anti-personnel weapons). A real-life soldier would have to score direct hits with concussion grenades or use a very heavy tripod-mounted gun in order to kill a stormtrooper through his armour (contrast this with Federation soldiers, whose pajamas wouldn't be of much use against an M-16). Blaster bolts are much too powerful to block, but by blocking shrapnel, a stormtrooper's armour ensures that the enemy must score a direct hit in order to kill the man inside.
They actually have quite good aim. Some of the shots in ROTJ (hitting R2D2 and Leia from 30 metres away, with a quick snap shot) are actually very difficult. When they were on a mission where they were clearly ordered to shoot to kill, they shot to kill. When they were probably under orders not to shoot to kill, they shot to barely miss. Their accuracy was as good as that of real-life soldiers, who do not have the sort of ridiculous "Lethal Weapon" accuracy that some people think they do.
Your reasoning to demonstrate the strength of stormtrooper armor is severely flawed. A strong man can easily lift another man off the ground and throw him several feet back with a punch, by your logic that means a human punch can deliver more power than the rounds from a modern assault rifle.
@ a human punch: in some cases of extreme range it can, jokes aside your right
@ have you ever seen a lasgun blow chunks out of metal or blow a hole in a man (paraphrased).
Yes we have, a lasgun has been described blowing limbs off, hotshot even punches through marine armour, that's made of ceramite and adamantium..pretty powerful I'd say
As a avid fan of both worlds and having read the fluff on both a hell of alot, star wars simply cannot compete with the craziness of the 40k universe.
Orblivion wrote: Your reasoning to demonstrate the strength of stormtrooper armor is severely flawed. A strong man can easily lift another man off the ground and throw him several feet back with a punch, by your logic that means a human punch can deliver more power than the rounds from a modern assault rifle.
A human fist has more momentum than a bullet does, however, the bullet focuses all of its energy into one small point, where as the fist spreads it out a bit more. Hence the reason a bullet can penetrate armour where a human fist cannot.
Stormtrooper armour is lightweight and the fact that a spear (which is designed to penetrate and as such focuses its energy into a small point (just like a bullet)) was thrown with enough force that a person was lifted off his feet and slammed into wall (hard enough to make him near unconscious) and a that happened to the armour was a small dent. That says quite a bit about the strength of Stormtrooper armour.
Based on what I know stats for a regular trooper would be:
WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:4+
They are trained soldiers so they would likely have some training in hand to hand combat. However we never see them fight hand to hand, so it is possible their WS could be a 2 if melee training is ignored.
They are exceptional shots and rather accurate (despite people toting otherwise).
They are normal men and as such would have the same Strength, Toughness, Wounds and Initiative as a regular person.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formosa wrote: @ a human punch: in some cases of extreme range it can, jokes aside your right
@ have you ever seen a lasgun blow chunks out of metal or blow a hole in a man (paraphrased).
Yes we have, a lasgun has been described blowing limbs off, hotshot even punches through marine armour, that's made of ceramite and adamantium..pretty powerful I'd say
As a avid fan of both worlds and having read the fluff on both a hell of alot, star wars simply cannot compete with the craziness of the 40k universe.
It would depend though. In space, the Empire has the speed necessary they can just jump from system to system. When was the last time the IoM made it halfway across the galaxy in under a week?
If the IoM managed to catch the Empire on a planet in ground combat, they most likely would decimate the Empire.
Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Except this discussion is on the Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire. If it was SW vs 40K then yes we would have to take in account all of the various races and factions.
The IoMs opponents are relevant to this discussion. If the Imperium can stand against them, and even win most of the time, what chance does the GE stand against the Imperium?
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Except this discussion is on the Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire. If it was SW vs 40K then yes we would have to take in account all of the various races and factions.
To be honest I think this is a big problem. We mention the GE probing the galaxy before fighting and a rift but then we have to pause and say... wait what are the other races doing? How will they affect them? We certainly can't have a 1v1 between the IG and the Emperium. Not only would this imply that they don't have to worry about any foe besides the GE anymore but would also imply that every other race has dissapeared never once intercepting a single probe. So are the Imperium still fighting the other forces besides GE? Is it just GE vs the Imperium of Manking with nothing else?
Also why the imperium has gone in less then a week... and in a couple hundred years... and going back in time...
Also I very much doubt probes could observe the entire galaxy in any short span of time.
Also not entirely sure about bs4. Whilst they are professional, the stats of 40k are exceptionally wonky and honestly don't always make sense. Tau have a bs of 3 even though that is pretty much the biggest part of their training yet when lit with several markerlights bam bs5 fools! Also yes lasguns have crazy fluctuating power. Then again power swords can sometimes kill guys and sometimes destroy tanks.
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Nids got prevented from doing Planetfall by a single (!) Eldar. Also, 1000 Space Marines kicked their butt, surely 5000 Storm Troopers can too. And let's not forget that Vostroyans starved (!) nids to death. Lol. I guess Jabba would have enough "reserves" to repeat that feat
As for Necrons, watch Episode I. Gungans beat robots.
For Eldar, well, they got pwned by Tyrandis and Necrons, and we know how the above two would fare against anything reasonable
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Nids got prevented from doing Planetfall by a single (!) Eldar. Also, 1000 Space Marines kicked their butt, surely 5000 Storm Troopers can too. And let's not forget that Vostroyans starved (!) nids to death. Lol. I guess Jabba would have enough "reserves" to repeat that feat
As for Necrons, watch Episode I. Gungans beat robots.
For Eldar, well, they got pwned by Tyrandis and Necrons, and we know how the above two would fare against anything reasonable
Except that you just mentioned a single eldar kicking the butt of nids before suddenly saying eldar get powned by nids, necrons aren't robots. They are smarter, stronger, not stupid, and all effectively deadly able to reanimate from preposterous deaths and march onwards. Onto nids, 1000 space marines and a bunch of pdf and guard where many of those marines died (at least 100) and don't forget that this chapter that lived had one of the greatest armors of all. PLOT ARMOR! You know the thing that makes storm troopers like like complete idiots that can't aim for trash whenever han, luke, and leiea appear and make them start shooting in circles?
Also if we want to bring all the races in. Have fun dealing with orks that spawn more and more when dead, nids crawling into your race from inside and making it fall apart, the whispers of chaos, your bud's head randomly exploding with chaos, daemons ruptruing from a warp and fading in and out of reality whilst ripping you apart all the while another shooting fireworks that make another into a a pool of water flames mutating everybody else as they scream in terror. And Titans!
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Except this discussion is on the Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire. If it was SW vs 40K then yes we would have to take in account all of the various races and factions.
To be honest I think this is a big problem. We mention the GE probing the galaxy before fighting and a rift but then we have to pause and say... wait what are the other races doing? How will they affect them?.
It depends on a few factors. For example, the Tyranids have only been encountered enmasse in the eastern and southern sections of the galaxy. If the wormhole opened up in galactic northwest, The Empire might not encounter too many Nids. We have no idea how the Tau would react to their appearance, more than likely leaving them alone as they are not trying to settle planets there would be no conflict. Orks are Orks. Nuff said. Dark Eldar would try raiding the Imperial Fleet with unknown success. The Eldar are enigmatic. They might perceive the Empire as a threat, they might not. Most likely as long as the Empire was not hostile towards the Eldar, the Eldar would most likely leave them alone or try to use them as pawns. I don't see Chaos Daemons as a threat in space as, barring the Eye of Terror, there are no Warp Rifts in space (that I know of). CSM would most likely attack.
Something I have always liked was nids vs Borg, who would assimilate who, or would it create a more terrible race than we could conceive of, imagine gaunts with Borg shield tech, or Borg spawning in the billions.... I like these fluff mash ups
Something I have always liked was nids vs Borg, who would assimilate who, or would it create a more terrible race than we could conceive of, imagine gaunts with Borg shield tech, or Borg spawning in the billions.... I like these fluff mash ups
That's easy. Nids would crush the Borg. They are cannot Run and since only Trek uses "phased" weaponry, the Borg will not be able to adapt.
Something I have always liked was nids vs Borg, who would assimilate who, or would it create a more terrible race than we could conceive of, imagine gaunts with Borg shield tech, or Borg spawning in the billions.... I like these fluff mash ups
That's easy. Nids would crush the Borg. They are cannot Run and since only Trek uses "phased" weaponry, the Borg will not be able to adapt.
Why not? Tau "out-adapted" the Nids. Why shouldn't the Borg (or, as a matter of fact, Starfleet) be able to do the same?
It depends on a few factors. For example, the Tyranids have only been encountered enmasse in the eastern and southern sections of the galaxy. If the wormhole opened up in galactic northwest, The Empire might not encounter too many Nids. We have no idea how the Tau would react to their appearance, more than likely leaving them alone as they are not trying to settle planets there would be no conflict. Orks are Orks. Nuff said. Dark Eldar would try raiding the Imperial Fleet with unknown success. The Eldar are enigmatic. They might perceive the Empire as a threat, they might not. Most likely as long as the Empire was not hostile towards the Eldar, the Eldar would most likely leave them alone or try to use them as pawns. I don't see Chaos Daemons as a threat in space as, barring the Eye of Terror, there are no Warp Rifts in space (that I know of). CSM would most likely attack.
Daemons are nasty, I give you that.
But Nids haven't really been a threat to anything. They didn't just get their ass handed to them by Ultramarines. They've been beaten by Ork Freebootaz, by single Inquisitors, by Vostroyans with old-fashioned nuclear weapons, etc... Not sure if they ever really did beat or eat anything "named" that wasn't just invented to be "beaten" by the Nids in the first place.
Well, Iyanden I guess. At least until Yriel showed up. Counts as half a victory I guess. Nids 1/2 : the rest of the 40K-verse 1.000.000.000.000.00.000.000.000.000
Ah but all it would take is the Borg to assimilate a few ships (biological) and that in turn would corrupt and infect the other nids in the target hivefleet
Also trek has the most reliable and accurate weapons and ships in any of the settings, they can literally go where they please when they please, add to that the best sensors on any of the settings, they can detect ships whole sectors always, thats pretty beef alone
Also cubes are roughly comparable in size, tacticals are also similar.
Formosa wrote: Ah these are the mistakes you are making happyjew, I said 40k universe, eldar, necrons.. Hell tyranids, star wars simply has no answer to these threats, crons can go where they please, eldar would have issue but would win every space engagement, and nids would do what they do best, overwhelm.
Except this discussion is on the Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire. If it was SW vs 40K then yes we would have to take in account all of the various races and factions.
To be honest I think this is a big problem. We mention the GE probing the galaxy before fighting and a rift but then we have to pause and say... wait what are the other races doing? How will they affect them?.
It depends on a few factors. For example, the Tyranids have only been encountered enmasse in the eastern and southern sections of the galaxy. If the wormhole opened up in galactic northwest, The Empire might not encounter too many Nids. We have no idea how the Tau would react to their appearance, more than likely leaving them alone as they are not trying to settle planets there would be no conflict. Orks are Orks. Nuff said. Dark Eldar would try raiding the Imperial Fleet with unknown success. The Eldar are enigmatic. They might perceive the Empire as a threat, they might not. Most likely as long as the Empire was not hostile towards the Eldar, the Eldar would most likely leave them alone or try to use them as pawns. I don't see Chaos Daemons as a threat in space as, barring the Eye of Terror, there are no Warp Rifts in space (that I know of). CSM would most likely attack.
True true. That being said it doesn't factor in possible nid outbreaks, necron surprises, and the fact that whilst we have our iconic armies, we also know that in the fluff we have some scary xenos races such as the hrud and those octopus fliers. Whilst there aren't quite warp rifts in space, there are a large number of warpstorms dotting the galaxy. From the second largest Maelstrom to Tallarn's warpstorm. In these places logic falls apart and I find it very probable that quite a few disasters would occur in such areas. Along with that, chaos isn't so logical. If memory serves me, Slaanesh actually took over the battleship possessing a blackstone foretress. This seems to imply that chaos to some extent can function in space albeit with some unpredictability. Perhaps chaos can even just bloop into your crib. Oh and don't forget leaving the warp opens a gaping hole into disreality and supposedly there are planet sized daemons.
How could I forget disruptor lol, that is roughly comparable to necron tech, it "disrupts" the molecular bonds of the target and potentially vaporizes it, that's also cool
Something I have always liked was nids vs Borg, who would assimilate who, or would it create a more terrible race than we could conceive of, imagine gaunts with Borg shield tech, or Borg spawning in the billions.... I like these fluff mash ups
That's easy. Nids would crush the Borg. They are cannot Run and since only Trek uses "phased" weaponry, the Borg will not be able to adapt.
Why not? Tau "out-adapted" the Nids. Why shouldn't the Borg (or, as a matter of fact, Starfleet) be able to do the same?
The Borg adaptation is based on frequency and phase coherence (hence the reason they can adapt to Phasers). In fact, shoot them with regular bullets and they go down. That says nothing about bullets with a mind of its own.
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Formosa wrote: they can literally go where they please when they please, add to that the best sensors on any of the settings, they can detect ships whole sectors always, thats pretty beef alone.
Now this is funny.
IIRC Janeway said it would take 75 years to traverse 70 000 light years at maximum warp. which works out to what? About 3333c (roughly)? Where as hyperdrives enable ships to travel at several millions times the speed of light (especially considering the fact that the SW galaxy is much larger than ours and travel still only takes a day or two at most.
Also, unlike the Federation, SW ships can detect cloaked ships.
However, I think we are starting to veer away from this board.
Borg don't just adapt to energy weapons, they adapt to projectile weapons too, changing the frequency of a shield to the same resonance of a physical attack would also stop it, Borg in the fluff have done this, they also adapt armour on there drones to better protect from physical and ballistic attacks, they. Are pretty much nids but technological in nature.
Note though I'm not talking a straight up frontal attack, Borg don't have the numbers for thst, they would find the weak points in there fleets and teanswarp there, destroy the stragglers and assimilate the others and run the hell away before nids could respond, also nids hibernate in transit and the Borg would see this and jump on them and rum before they could respond
Da krimson barun wrote: Happyjews stats gave the stormtroopers BS 4.I'm starting to wonder has he only read the books and never seen episodes 4-6.
Actually, I've seen the movies in the proper order. And i'm not going off just the books.
I was kidding.And name 2 times in the movies when stormtroopers hit a target other then princess leias shoulder.And that was ONCE.
What about hitting R2-D2 (in the same scene)? And of course there was the entire opening from ANH. Let's not forget the accuracy referenced by Old Ben regarding the wrecked Sandcrawler.
The beginning where they kill several rebel soldiers. Storm Troopers are supposed to be good. That being said, apparently clone troopers are generally better but that is a different story. Anyways, they are known for being efficient, powerful, and capable of relatively precise aim for an army. Obi Wan describes this at the destroyed vehicle of the jawas where they tried to disguise their true presence. The problem comes from plot armor and the underdog situation. In reality, the main characters would have long been gunned down. The thing is, the story was a coming to age adventure that children could watch and the main characters dying within the first few minutes doesn't sound particularly interesting nor would it make for a long story with a possible sequel.
Da krimson barun wrote: Happyjews stats gave the stormtroopers BS 4.I'm starting to wonder has he only read the books and never seen episodes 4-6.
Actually, I've seen the movies in the proper order. And i'm not going off just the books.
I was kidding.And name 2 times in the movies when stormtroopers hit a target other then princess leias shoulder.And that was ONCE.
What about hitting R2-D2 (in the same scene)? And of course there was the entire opening from ANH. Let's not forget the accuracy referenced by Old Ben regarding the wrecked Sandcrawler.
Thank you! The Sandcrawler was the scene I was thinking about! In reality, the Storm Troopers suffered the same fate as many antagonists/adverseries. Even 40k has it. IG slaughter CSM, SM slaughter SM, SM slaughter every race with units of 5 against preposterous odds, one eldar kicking the butt of nids, Nids losing to 1000 SM and the pdf force.... etc etc.
It is in that order, whilst not chronological, to avoid ruining the big reveal of episode 5 that was a major aspect. Sure it is one of those spoilers that means nothing anymore but the impact is still lessened no matter what and promotes Darth Vader as a badass before providing some backstory into his fall.
Lasgun is a laser. Blaster is beyond a laser. Some blasters are equivelent to Plasma guns to deal with armor, most are "better" in terms of efficiency to deal with biologicals.
Science and Technology
Star Wars trumps. IoM treats technology as religion. GE treats it as science, promotes it's learning, innovation, use, etc... IoM's "networks" would be an absolute joke to the GE, and most ships/armor/etc would probably just be shut down remotely. IoM outclasses GE in terms of brute strength, but brute strength isn't everything.
Troops
Storm Troopers, despite their portrayel in Episode 4/5/6 are the elite of the elite. They under go the best training available to military forces. They are the Special Ops of the Empire. Storm Troopers would probably be equivalent to, well Storm Troopers of the IoM in training, but I'd give Storm Trooper (GE) an edge over carapace. Storm Trooper Armor was designed to keep the wearer alive when struck by heavy weapon blaster bolts, and provided near immunity to kinetic weapons. In comparison, IG armor would be like paper to Blasters. Carapace would probably provide some protection. Power Armor would be the only thing I'd rely on against it. Their training would be inferior, their weapons are inferior.
Now if the GE showed up in the IoM universe, then of course the IoM would win, shoudl the IoM show up in the GE universe, the GE would win. Both sides picked up and placed in a neutral universe? Hard to say.
Blasters are no more true lasers than las guns are, poor writing and "visual" effects show this, true lasers move at the speed of light, neither las guns nor blasters do this, sad but true.
The iom don't use networks, they use brains and miu's, can't shut that down easily
I'd have to hand the initial advantage to the GE - they have incredibly fast travel even if it's more risky for them without charted, pre-set routes. They also have instant galaxy-wide communications with the holonet, though they'd probably have to start seeding relays. And some pretty staggering production capacity if needed... the Death Star was built in secret (so the manpower and materials wasn't noted as missing) and in only a few years.
What I can't see is any reason for them to start trouble at all. Exploration beyond the known areas of the Old Republic has long been discouraged, and the armed forces are used more for policing their own systems than anything else. In a way they're stretched as thin as the IoM.
Spetulhu wrote: I'd have to hand the initial advantage to the GE - they have incredibly fast travel even if it's more risky for them without charted, pre-set routes. They also have instant galaxy-wide communications with the holonet, though they'd probably have to start seeding relays. And some pretty staggering production capacity if needed... the Death Star was built in secret (so the manpower and materials wasn't noted as missing) and in only a few years.
What I can't see is any reason for them to start trouble at all. Exploration beyond the known areas of the Old Republic has long been discouraged, and the armed forces are used more for policing their own systems than anything else. In a way they're stretched as thin as the IoM.
Even if they can't get maps, they do have technologies for mapping out unknown territory. How do you think they charted out their own galaxy? Not only can they use simple optical observations to map out much of the galaxy with conventional astronomy techniques, but they can launch thousands of probe droids to map out territories which are not so easily observed, and to refine the information they get from the initial optical survey. Optical data on our galaxy depicts information which is, at worst, a couple of hundred thousand years old, which is nothing in an astronomical context. No astronomically major changes occur over such a short time-frame. And if they lose half of the probe droids in the process, who cares? They're cheap and disposable anyway.
It started out good, asking about the real-world differences between the Star Wars EU and the Black Library.... and then descended into the place where dreams go to die, which is yet another "who would win?" thread.
Between 40K and SW, specifically, this varies only based on the theme of the board you're posting on. Because this is a 40K site, then the Imperium wins. If this were a Star Wars site, then the GE would win.
Mainly because there are a great many things that one has to take for granted within the setting and then try to force them into fitting into the other setting, or not, but by discarding those aspects, you are imbalancing the battle in favor of one side or another.
These sorts of threads are, basically, the most circular of internet circle jerks, and fail to be entertaining or insightful after page 2 at the most.
They also crop up on these boards once every couple of months. It's always someone's first time, I guess.
NO YOU PANZY GIT ITZ GOING TOOO B EVIL SUNZ ORKZ DO YA WANT DA DEFFSKULLZ TO TAK DA CRIDET!!!?!WAAAAAAGH!
SHUD ET YA "UMIE LIKE GIT WEZ ALL KNOWZ DAT DA BLOODAXES IS DA BESTEST AN DA STRONGEST AND DA TOUGHEST! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Goodness, I was just trying to cleverly mock the poor portrayal of the troopers from the original trilogy.
Yep, for all of the political and "science is a religion" reasons, the Imperium, as we should all know, would be a terrible place to live, whereas most other eras of Star Wars would be much preferable.
...Is it just me, or do I want to hear stormtroopers shout: "HERESY!" when they shoot at people in the films?
Will the power field on a power weapon stop a Lightsabre? Will Bolts pierce Stormtrooper armour?
Please for the love of all that is Holy, by George Lucas, Ray Bradbury, Isaac Assimov, Aaron Dembski-Bowden and any other great scifi writer's names whom I may invoke, let this be a thing. Someone do a drawing of a grizzled Space Marine Captain in power armor and cloak with a power sword dueling with a Jedi knight as Republic Troopers blast away at Space Marines and they return disciplined volleys of fire in the background. I would pay multitudes of moneys for a print of that to hang on my wall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but unfortunately I have to say the luke vs libby pic seems to have been made by a SW fan. Luke just feels more baddass In that drawing. maybe its the armor and cape. power sword>lightsaber tho
There was a picture I'd seen once, split , with Anakin on top, Luke on the bottom.
Anakin: But Obi-Wan, I'm the Chosen One. I'm supposed to be special.
Luke: But Uncle Owen, I was going to go to Toshe Station to pick up some power converters
At least now we know where he gets it from.
Spetulhu wrote: I'd have to hand the initial advantage to the GE - they have incredibly fast travel even if it's more risky for them without charted, pre-set routes. They also have instant galaxy-wide communications with the holonet, though they'd probably have to start seeding relays. And some pretty staggering production capacity if needed... the Death Star was built in secret (so the manpower and materials wasn't noted as missing) and in only a few years.
What I can't see is any reason for them to start trouble at all. Exploration beyond the known areas of the Old Republic has long been discouraged, and the armed forces are used more for policing their own systems than anything else. In a way they're stretched as thin as the IoM.
The IoM communication and travel depends on the astronomican, which has a rather short range(doesnt reach the eastern fringes)
At least the GE FTL tech can work anywhere, if it needs some set up. The IoM could never travel into GE space as they would not be able to navigate.
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Happyjew wrote: It really isn't a who would win? thread. It is more of a discussion of different strategic assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but unfortunately I have to say the luke vs libby pic seems to have been made by a SW fan. Luke just feels more baddass In that drawing. maybe its the armor and cape. power sword>lightsaber tho
Nah, the Libby is about to set his hand on Luke's forehead. And either zap him with lightning or just pulp his skull with his natural strength.
They were not present on endor according to the movies (Battlefront 2 suggests so though) but they were the ones responsible for raising the Jedi Temple
Void__Dragon wrote: The 501st (You know, the guys on Endor) really were the elite of the Imperial Army though.
During and immediately following the Clone Wars, yes.
Afterwards, in the Rebellion Era? Not so much. As casualties mounted, the original clones were replaced with either copies of copies of clones, or with natural (non-Mando) humans... and the 501st became a shadow of its former glory.
Problem with this argument is that for the most part neither would be able to move in eachothers respective galaxies.
IoM relies on the Warp, and the GE relies on carefully mapped out Hyperspace lanes, and these take a very long time to properly mapout, hence why parts of the galaxy are still uncharted. It all depends once again on which galaxy the hypothetical conflict is taking place in.
In the milky way, which for all intents and purposes, contrary to an earlier post, seems to be larger than the SW galaxy, the GE would likely lose, simply because they would 1. not be able to move and secondly would be ground down by relentlessness of the 40k universe/IoM.
Now in the SW galaxy, IoM, despite all it has to throw at the GE, would simply be outmaneuvered and outgunned.
If you start adding Chaos, Orks and other parts of 40k into the debate, then 40k simply wins due to its grimdark nature, I highly doubt the GE would even try to persist in any campaign in the Milky Way.
Another problem is that in fiction there is little true consistency, stuff can do stuff for the sake of plot, though there is sources that aim to provide scientific basis for weapons and techs they usually fall short, suffice to say a deal of common sense and fairness has to be used. Fans of one Universe or another also tend to distort things in their favour.
tl;dr Two different Universes, couldn't really say who'd win.
And to get back to my second point - is there anything either of them can gain or even have the ability to pursue by getting into a conflict? The IoM is surrounded by hostile forces on all sides and also ever watchful for inevitable internal struggles. Another enemy is the last thing they need. The GE is also more inclined to keep onto what they have instead of going outside their area of influence. Palpatine has personally stopped efforts to explore outside the domain of his Empire.
Happyjew wrote: Is there any evidence that the Immaterium exists outside the Milky Way?
eh really only "The warp is a Parallel of real space" seeing as real space kind of goes to the edge of the universe so does the warp according to that phrase
The oldones built they webway which allowed them to travel across the galaxy without suffering from the tides of the warp, are the old ones from this galaxy or from another one? it seems that if they were from another one what reason would they of had to build the webway if the warp didn't exsist out there.
I don't know what this is from but "The Webway is an extradimensional construct that spans the dimensions of Creation, primarily defined by the fact that it sits between the material realm and the roiling tides of the Warp, an interstice comparable to the fabric of a veil cast over something foul."
Real space spans creation, webway was built between real space and the warp, If the webway spans creation than logically the warp would to.
IHateNids wrote: so you pick up both armies and place them in a random galaxy, neither side has the home field advantage
and then the IoM cannot move while the GE ships can move very quickly only after having set up hyperspace lanes.
Same universe or Different universe?
and does random galaxy have sentient life? (that will determine if there are daemons/chaos in that area)
Cause if its the same universe IOM will have speed advantge of a Calm warp (even if they leave the galaxy the warp is still there)
but they cannot navigate the warp without the astronomican.
If you are assuming that they take earth, the golden throne, and big E with them to the new Galaxy then it is just a matter of time before some GE forces take him out.
IoM navigation depends on big E, how they ever got around before big E is the question.
from the way it is written, yes it should work anywhere. The issues is that the nav computer needs to have suffiencet data about the route being traveled.
Star Wars ships don't need mapped out hyperspace lanes to travel. Hyperspace lanes in the Star Wars galaxy are simply the fastest routes between the largest commercial hubs, but ships can enter hyperspace in any direction they choose. Their nav computers are sophisticated enough to detect celestial bodies and/or gravitational anomalies that would affect the ship and drop them out of hyperspace accordingly.
but they cannot navigate the warp without the astronomican.
If you are assuming that they take earth, the golden throne, and big E with them to the new Galaxy then it is just a matter of time before some GE forces take him out.
IoM navigation depends on big E, how they ever got around before big E is the question.
During the GC they were able to navigate the warp with out the astronomican because the warp was relatively calm. the only reason they need the Golden throne is because the warp is now hurricane storm that gaks on everthing 24/7.
if they are in a new galaxy they would be able to get around in this "calm warp" aslong as there aren't any sentient beings in galaxy before they arrive
Only if they suddenly learn how to navigate without triangulating based off the Astronomican. Navigators have been relying on that fixed point for 10,000 years now. It is highly unlikely that any of them know how to pilot a vessel without using that as a reference point.
And if we want to talk about SW vs 40K...
... which era of SW? Are the Sith also involved?
If the Sith get involved...
Darth Nihilus? This man kills planets by flying past them.
Exar Kun? He causes stars to super-nova with his mind.
Naga Sadow? This guy has a tactical mind that gives Yarrick and Creed a run for their money, not to mention that his own Sith Master may have taught him the secret to living as nothing more than a severed head.
The Sun-Crusher? This is a vessel that can destroy worlds without having to go to them. It sits somewhere... anywhere... and fires super-nova-causing torpedoes through hyperspace at a designated target. These torpedoes are unstoppable while in transit, and offer a defense force only minutes to stop them once they arrive in-system and head for the local star.
Psienesis wrote: Only if they suddenly learn how to navigate without triangulating based off the Astronomican. Navigators have been relying on that fixed point for 10,000 years now. It is highly unlikely that any of them know how to pilot a vessel without using that as a reference point.
And if we want to talk about SW vs 40K...
... which era of SW? Are the Sith also involved?
If the Sith get involved...
Darth Nihilus? This man kills planets by flying past them.
Exar Kun? He causes stars to super-nova with his mind.
Naga Sadow? This guy has a tactical mind that gives Yarrick and Creed a run for their money, not to mention that his own Sith Master may have taught him the secret to living as nothing more than a severed head.
The Sun-Crusher? This is a vessel that can destroy worlds without having to go to them. It sits somewhere... anywhere... and fires super-nova-causing torpedoes through hyperspace at a designated target. These torpedoes are unstoppable while in transit, and offer a defense force only minutes to stop them once they arrive in-system and head for the local star.
Actually the Sun Crusher has to be in system to fire its torpedoes into a star. The Galaxy Gun is the one that fires Hyperspace capable missiles.
The Sun-Crusher had the advantage of being able to be shot by a Death Star and not even blink and simply fly through a capital ship (tearing it in half) without even scratching its paint.
The Sun-Crusher had the advantage of being able to be shot by a Death Star and not even blink and simply fly through a capital ship (tearing it in half) without even scratching its paint.
Yup, thats the one. The one that needed to be placed inside a star just to make it inaccessible to the baddies. Of course when it was pulled back out of the sun, it was still fully functional.
Well, true, but then this goes back to my earlier question. At what point in the SW universe are we talking about having them fight the IoM? If it's Rebellion-era... pff... they're worse off, technologically, than the IoM is compared to the Great Crusade.
Star Wars won't get its really good stuff until either very much before this time, or well after it.
Darth Nihilus? This man kills planets by flying past them.
Nihilus is indeed very powerful.
Magnus the Red is more-so. Capable of also "killing planets" (Razed the surface of Prospero in his battle with Leman Russ, stopped Ahriman's world-pulverizing Rubric, etc.), has far greater telepathic power since even from the other side of the galaxy he telepathically creamed Lorgar, who similarly mentally dominated the Daemon inhabiting Fulgrim, who as you will recall was able to telepathically control an entire planet. And indeed, in A Thousand Sons, a mere flex of effort on his part caused nightmares among an entire feral world he happened to be astral projecting by as a side-effect.
Exar Kun? He causes stars to super-nova with his mind.
Uh, Kun never did that, to my knowledge. I am pretty sure you are thinking of Naga Sadow, who used tech, and Dark Side relics to accomplish this. It was not under his own power.
Naga Sadow? This guy has a tactical mind that gives Yarrick and Creed a run for their money, not to mention that his own Sith Master may have taught him the secret to living as nothing more than a severed head.
I know relatively little on Sadow so will take your word for it.
The Sun-Crusher? This is a vessel that can destroy worlds without having to go to them. It sits somewhere... anywhere... and fires super-nova-causing torpedoes through hyperspace at a designated target. These torpedoes are unstoppable while in transit, and offer a defense force only minutes to stop them once they arrive in-system and head for the local star.
The Sun Crusher is indeed powerful, as is the Planet Gun. It is hard to say if a world's Planetary Defense Grid could deal with it.
GE would probably beat the Imperium in the long run, simply due to logistics. FTL travel in SW is just so much faster and more reliable, and while the Imperium would have the advantage on the ground and in terms of one-on-one space battles IMO, the GE would decide the terms of combat damn near every time.
That said, to use the best of SW, one must use the best of 40k. In which SW would be unceremoniously crushed. Even the mightiest of beings in SW like Abeloth, the Bedlam Spirits, or the Father, simply can not compare in power or scale to the Chaos Gods, C'tan, Eldar gods, or any other deities. Not to mention the variety of mortal nasties running under them.
Bit silly to pitch one game-world against another. But silly can be fun I guess
My bet would be on the Imperium of Man. I mean, wouldn't they continously out-gun GE? Imagine rebels having Lascannons, Plasmacannons, Multimeltas etc at Hoth. I doubt the AT-AT's would have gotten very far.
And as for space battles. In the movies (haven't read any SW books/comics), the spaceships of the GE tends to just go "pew pew pew pew", hitting nothing and usually a hit means little. IoM has shipweapons on their ships that would slaughter stardestroyers at huge distances. GE's ships, atleast in the movies, always have to get close.
Also the GE has the emperor and Vader when it comes to "space magic", but how would they stand up against a whole host of psykers, fanatical priests, tech-priests and everything the inquisition can conjure up? Not to mention the damage the Officio Assassinorum can inflict on the GE.
I mean even if the GE is faster, they wouldn't be able to hurt the imperium enough. Once the ball starts rolling its a steamroller and GE would crumble. Thats how I see it atleast
but they cannot navigate the warp without the astronomican.
If you are assuming that they take earth, the golden throne, and big E with them to the new Galaxy then it is just a matter of time before some GE forces take him out.
IoM navigation depends on big E, how they ever got around before big E is the question.
During the GC they were able to navigate the warp with out the astronomican because the warp was relatively calm. the only reason they need the Golden throne is because the warp is now hurricane storm that gaks on everthing 24/7.
if they are in a new galaxy they would be able to get around in this "calm warp" aslong as there aren't any sentient beings in galaxy before they arrive
during the great crusade, the emperor was strong enough to project the astronomican without the consumption of psykers and while walking around.
Void__Dragon wrote: The problem is that the Imperium takes forever to do anything, whereas the GE can mount a full-scale invasion force in a matter of days. Maybe less.
An invasion force of a few million Storm Troopers wouldn't phase the Imperium. It would take them years to take over any planet that had any sort of space defense.
1 Ion Cannon with shielding gave the GE trouble on Hoth. Imagine a planet completely covered in more destructive weaponry, Ion Cannon only temporarily disrupts various systems, all of which is shielded by technology that transports the incoming objects and energy into an alternate dimension(that's what Void Shields do)
The first Hive or Forge World they get to will grind them to a halt. And they'll quickly run out of ground troops.
The Imperium wins by attrition. They can afford losses, the GE simply cannot. Not when your army's numbers are measured in only millions. The Imperium has trillions of soldiers in their standing army. The entire Imperium is in an eternal state of raising armies and sending them to warzones, one more warzone isn't going to cause an issue.
during the great crusade, the emperor was strong enough to project the astronomican without the consumption of psykers and while walking around.
you are correct however
"Constructed in M30[3] by the Emperor in preparation for the Great Crusade[4], the "psychic light" of the Astronomican is beamed from Terra, from the Chamber of the Astronomican. The Astronomican is powered by ten thousand[1] psykers trained by the organisation; the omnipotent will of the Emperor constantly directs this energy across around fifty thousand light years of the galaxy. Although the Emperor does not provide the energy of the beacon, only he has the psychic power to handle such immense energy and direct it across the galaxy."
This would put macragge and the eastern fringe out of range but they still use the warp to travel (Milky way is about 100-120k light years across and
Grey Templar wrote: 1 Ion Cannon with shielding gave the GE trouble on Hoth. Imagine a planet completely covered in more destructive weaponry, Ion Cannon only temporarily disrupts various systems, all of which is shielded by technology that transports the incoming objects and energy into an alternate dimension(that's what Void Shields do)
This assumes parity in firepower rather than Star Wars guns being far more powerful than 40k guns. If, instead, the comparison is more like muskets vs. nukes then it's quite possible that a star destroyer could sit in orbit and turn a 40k planet into a sea of glass without even noticing a dent in its shields.
1 Ion Cannon with shielding gave the GE trouble on Hoth. Imagine a planet completely covered in more destructive weaponry, Ion Cannon only temporarily disrupts various systems, all of which is shielded by technology that transports the incoming objects and energy into an alternate dimension(that's what Void Shields do)
The problem was not the Ion Cannon but the shield.
They mention that the planet has a deflector sheild (not all planets have such expensive pieces of technology)
and that it is capable of withstanding a heavy bombardment (not all planetary shields are this strong)
It is also from an early early movie. The death star is supposed to have tens of thousands of TIE fighters, yet when engadged by 20 fighters, they only deploy 3 fighters to counter them. Clearly there are limits to what could be shown on screen at the time.
If Star Wars navel weaponry actually put out as much energy as is claimed, the planet would have been completely irradiated within a few days. Everyone would have been dead from all the latent energy leftover from all the weapons fire. Sensors would be completely useless because of background static so you'd be firing blind(can't aim manually, looking directly into space would be hazardous for your health)
Ergo, star wars weaponry isn't all that powerful. At the best it would be comparable to 40k.
No, because his goal was to capture Luke alive. Destroying the rebel base was just a nice bonus.
If Star Wars navel weaponry actually put out as much energy as is claimed, the planet would have been completely irradiated within a few days.
You're assuming that it puts out radiation all directions, that shielding capable of resisting direct fire can't protect against stray background radiation, and that radiation magically stays around in a giant cloud of unpleasantness instead of expanding outward at the speed of light like real radiation.
Yeah, its going to expand outwards. Lots of it in the direction of the unfortunate planet.
I am assuming the ships would fine, but their sensors wouldn't be functional.
It would eventually dissipate, but with the numbers of ships that were actively fighting it would rapidly become a giant cloud of radiation that you wouldn't be able to fight in very well.
All the energy of the weaponry stopped by shields is going to expand outwards. It turns directional energy into ambient energy. That's what is going to end up contaminating the local area.
And Vader could still have at the very least seriously messed to planet up to flush the Rebels out instead of sending in ground forces that wouldn't accomplish much. then just nab Luke as he tries to escape via ship.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, its going to expand outwards. Lots of it in the direction of the unfortunate planet.
How do you know this?
I am assuming the ships would fine, but their sensors wouldn't be functional.
Why are you assuming that their sensors are broken?
It would eventually dissipate, but with the numbers of ships that were actively fighting it would rapidly become a giant cloud of radiation that you wouldn't be able to fight in very well.
You don't seem to understand how radiation works in a vacuum. It expands outward at the speed of light, which means as soon as the source goes away the radiation is gone. Even if we grant your assumption about radiation from shooting you'd have very brief spikes of radiation with every shot, but no lingering effects.
All the energy of the weaponry stopped by shields is going to expand outwards. It turns directional energy into ambient energy. That's what is going to end up contaminating the local area.
You're assuming that shields work that way.
And Vader could still have at the very least seriously messed to planet up to flush the Rebels out instead of sending in ground forces that wouldn't accomplish much. then just nab Luke as he tries to escape via ship.
Again, killing the rebels was just a side benefit. Planetary-scale destruction isn't exactly subtle and controllable, if you start bombarding the planet around the base to the point that the base itself is affected then there's a pretty good chance you're going to kill everyone in the base. And there was no way Vader would take that kind of risk when capturing Luke alive is his only goal.
And I'm not really sure what move you watched where there were ground forces that didn't accomplish much. In the one I saw the ground forces quickly overwhelmed the rebel defenders and sent them running, and had no real difficulty in bringing down the shields or getting into the rebel base.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, its going to expand outwards. Lots of it in the direction of the unfortunate planet.
I am assuming the ships would fine, but their sensors wouldn't be functional.
It would eventually dissipate, but with the numbers of ships that were actively fighting it would rapidly become a giant cloud of radiation that you wouldn't be able to fight in very well.
All the energy of the weaponry stopped by shields is going to expand outwards. It turns directional energy into ambient energy. That's what is going to end up contaminating the local area.
And Vader could still have at the very least seriously messed to planet up to flush the Rebels out instead of sending in ground forces that wouldn't accomplish much. then just nab Luke as he tries to escape via ship.
how close are most of the ships to the planet actually? Is the level of energy output greater than the sun? Even if it is, the sun is on 24 hours a day, 365 days a year(or whatever that works out to on a distant planet)
A battle lasting 3 hours, where the amount of energy released per hour is 100 times that of the sun, in space 100 times closer to the planet than the sun is, is still unlikely to irradiate the planet.
Now if the battle is 100 times more powerful than the sun, it would be dam bright, and if it was 100 times closer the planet might get rather hot, but planets are large(understatement). It might result in the hottest day on record but it is unlikely to boil the oceans or melt the surface.
This assumes parity in firepower rather than Star Wars guns being far more powerful than 40k guns. If, instead, the comparison is more like muskets vs. nukes then it's quite possible that a star destroyer could sit in orbit and turn a 40k planet into a sea of glass without even noticing a dent in its shields.
The opposite is probably true, actually.
The Night Lords Legion, when leveling "hundreds" of guns on Nostramo, utterly obliterated it in a single lance firing.
We don't know the exact size of Nostramo, but assuming it is of similar size to Earth (And it is definitely made of far sturdier stuff, considering the high levels of Adamantine), and assuming that "hundreds" equates to something like 900 rather than a lower, less impressive number, this would result in each gun having roughly a yield of 63.6666 Exatons (Going off the Gravitational Binding Energy of Earth, which would require 57.3 Zetatons to destroy).
The highest numbers I have seen for Imperial Star Destroyers were just a tad under petaton range, IIRC.
I'm Pretty sure one acclamator can destroy a planet.It just takes a while.But that was a republic(still used by the empire I think)Capital ship.A escort from the Imperium would out gun it.So if the Imperium planet has any navy nearby at all they auto win.If its a calm warp.Or its a forge world...Seriously at best the empire could take one planet.Then?SPESS MUHRINES!
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, its going to expand outwards. Lots of it in the direction of the unfortunate planet.
How do you know this?
I am assuming the ships would fine, but their sensors wouldn't be functional.
Why are you assuming that their sensors are broken?
It would eventually dissipate, but with the numbers of ships that were actively fighting it would rapidly become a giant cloud of radiation that you wouldn't be able to fight in very well.
You don't seem to understand how radiation works in a vacuum. It expands outward at the speed of light, which means as soon as the source goes away the radiation is gone. Even if we grant your assumption about radiation from shooting you'd have very brief spikes of radiation with every shot, but no lingering effects.
All the energy of the weaponry stopped by shields is going to expand outwards. It turns directional energy into ambient energy. That's what is going to end up contaminating the local area.
You're assuming that shields work that way.
And Vader could still have at the very least seriously messed to planet up to flush the Rebels out instead of sending in ground forces that wouldn't accomplish much. then just nab Luke as he tries to escape via ship.
Again, killing the rebels was just a side benefit. Planetary-scale destruction isn't exactly subtle and controllable, if you start bombarding the planet around the base to the point that the base itself is affected then there's a pretty good chance you're going to kill everyone in the base. And there was no way Vader would take that kind of risk when capturing Luke alive is his only goal.
And I'm not really sure what move you watched where there were ground forces that didn't accomplish much. In the one I saw the ground forces quickly overwhelmed the rebel defenders and sent them running, and had no real difficulty in bringing down the shields or getting into the rebel base.
If something expands in every direction, its going to run into a planet that's just sitting right next to it. Practically touching on a cosmological scale.
The sensors aren't broken, just scrambled by the feth ton of Radiation that MUST be floating around. Energy can't be created or destroyed, its going somewhere. And if it isn't going into the target ship it must be going into the surrounding space. A shield wouldn't be much good if it didn't send the energy away from the ship it is protecting.
Radiation would go away, but we are also talking about chunks of destroyed ships floating around that would be bleeding tons of constant radiation as well.
The space above the planet would rapidly become a zone of dodgy instrument readings and hazardous sources of radiation.
I'm not an expert on radiation by any means, but the figures given for Star Wars weaponry is ridiculously absurd. A Star Destroyer's weaponry could destroy an entire planet given a little time, yet we know from the movies it would require "over a thousand ships with more firepower than I've ever seen" to destroy a planet.
Its a crime people in Sci-fi are frequently guilty of. They toss around large numbers as to what X ship can put out or withstand, yet they forget these numbers when these weapons are turned on ordinary materials and shop blosts simply making moderate sized craters and having comparable effects to 21st century weaponry on the human body. When in actuality those weapons, with given energy output, would obliterate continents and atomize something like a human. Leia's little arm wound in RotJ should have ripped her arm completely off and killed her from the shock.
Thus, we can determine that Star Wars numbers for their weaponry is many orders of magnitude off.
1 Ion Cannon with shielding gave the GE trouble on Hoth. Imagine a planet completely covered in more destructive weaponry, Ion Cannon only temporarily disrupts various systems, all of which is shielded by technology that transports the incoming objects and energy into an alternate dimension(that's what Void Shields do)
The problem was not the Ion Cannon but the shield.
They mention that the planet has a deflector sheild (not all planets have such expensive pieces of technology)
and that it is capable of withstanding a heavy bombardment (not all planetary shields are this strong)
It is also from an early early movie. The death star is supposed to have tens of thousands of TIE fighters, yet when engadged by 20 fighters, they only deploy 3 fighters to counter them. Clearly there are limits to what could be shown on screen at the time.
The first Death Star battle only saw a single squadron - Vader's. Tarkin didn't think that small one-man fighters were a threat. Vader did, so he took his own squadron, out of all one Y-wing, 2 X-wings, and only Vader's experimental TIE survived.
This assumes parity in firepower rather than Star Wars guns being far more powerful than 40k guns. If, instead, the comparison is more like muskets vs. nukes then it's quite possible that a star destroyer could sit in orbit and turn a 40k planet into a sea of glass without even noticing a dent in its shields.
The opposite is probably true, actually.
The Night Lords Legion, when leveling "hundreds" of guns on Nostramo, utterly obliterated it in a single lance firing.
We don't know the exact size of Nostramo, but assuming it is of similar size to Earth (And it is definitely made of far sturdier stuff, considering the high levels of Adamantine), and assuming that "hundreds" equates to something like 900 rather than a lower, less impressive number, this would result in each gun having roughly a yield of 63.6666 Exatons (Going off the Gravitational Binding Energy of Earth, which would require 57.3 Zetatons to destroy).
The highest numbers I have seen for Imperial Star Destroyers were just a tad under petaton range, IIRC.
Based on the movies, Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: A Star Destroyer's weaponry could destroy an entire planet given a little time, yet we know from the movies it would require "over a thousand ships with more firepower than I've ever seen" to destroy a planet.
Destroy is being used in two different contexts. The normal Imperial method of planetary destruction is BDZ, where they just blow the feth out of the surface making it inhabitable. Han's quote is talking about the amount of energy required to turn a planet into an asteroid field.
Based on the movies, Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons.
The Death Star is a single ship. In the movies at least, the only one of its kind.
Based on the movies, Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons.
The Death Star is a single ship. In the movies at least, the only one of its kind.
Imperial Ships can also blow up planets.
IoM Imperial or GE Imperial?
Also the Death Star is not one of a kind. Or did you forget the second, larger, more powerful, able to fire off-axis incomplete (because it was supposed to be a trap and would have worked if not for those meddling kids..ahem sorry) one? Plus there is the prototype at the Maw Installation, and there was the Darksabre.
Darth Nihilus? This man kills planets by flying past them.
Nihilus is indeed very powerful.
Magnus the Red is more-so. Capable of also "killing planets" (Razed the surface of Prospero in his battle with Leman Russ, stopped Ahriman's world-pulverizing Rubric, etc.), has far greater telepathic power since even from the other side of the galaxy he telepathically creamed Lorgar, who similarly mentally dominated the Daemon inhabiting Fulgrim, who as you will recall was able to telepathically control an entire planet. And indeed, in A Thousand Sons, a mere flex of effort on his part caused nightmares among an entire feral world he happened to be astral projecting by as a side-effect.
But Magnus is not part of the Imperium currently, and so doesn't matter.
Exar Kun? He causes stars to super-nova with his mind.
Uh, Kun never did that, to my knowledge. I am pretty sure you are thinking of Naga Sadow, who used tech, and Dark Side relics to accomplish this. It was not under his own power.
He sets up the destruction of the Cron system, he uses Aleena Keto as the trigger for it.
The Sun-Crusher? This is a vessel that can destroy worlds without having to go to them. It sits somewhere... anywhere... and fires super-nova-causing torpedoes through hyperspace at a designated target. These torpedoes are unstoppable while in transit, and offer a defense force only minutes to stop them once they arrive in-system and head for the local star.
The Sun Crusher is indeed powerful, as is the Planet Gun. It is hard to say if a world's Planetary Defense Grid could deal with it.
GE would probably beat the Imperium in the long run, simply due to logistics. FTL travel in SW is just so much faster and more reliable, and while the Imperium would have the advantage on the ground and in terms of one-on-one space battles IMO, the GE would decide the terms of combat damn near every time.
That said, to use the best of SW, one must use the best of 40k. In which SW would be unceremoniously crushed. Even the mightiest of beings in SW like Abeloth, the Bedlam Spirits, or the Father, simply can not compare in power or scale to the Chaos Gods, C'tan, Eldar gods, or any other deities. Not to mention the variety of mortal nasties running under them.
Well, if we're going to involve deities, I'm out, because the SW universe was created by a non-theistic guy with an interest in Eastern religions,mainly Buddhism and Taoist thought. Even the gods that are mentioned as being objects of worship in SW are never stated to be real, just things people believe.
But Magnus is not part of the Imperium currently, and so doesn't matter.
Hahaha, are you serious?
So you pick and choose what counts for Star Wars (Not a single faction like the GE, ALL of Star Wars), but we can not discuss anything from 40k except the current Imperium?
I am sorry but no, take your hypocrisy to another forum.
He sets up the destruction of the Cron system, he uses Aleena Keto as the trigger for it.
Oh I see. IIRC he did that with neither a thought nor under his own power/with his mind.
Well, if we're going to involve deities, I'm out, because the SW universe was created by a non-theistic guy with an interest in Eastern religions,mainly Buddhism and Taoist thought. Even the gods that are mentioned as being objects of worship in SW are never stated to be real, just things people believe.
Well, that is factually untrue, considering we meet some of them. Like the Bedlam Spirits, the Father and his children, and Abeloth.
I'm sorry but star wars sucks, it really does, the only reasons people like it is because of the special effects. You take the movie battleship back to the era and people would be hailing it as a masterpiece.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Star Wars is like 40k accept with simplistic story lines, lack of any moral ambiguity (Buddhist Jedi against Space Nazis), anything over pg 13, death of main characters, real gakky behavior by all sides. Darth Vader would gak his pants after spending ten minutes on any planet in the warhammer universe.
Kaesoron wrote: I'm sorry but star wars sucks, it really does, the only reasons people like it is because of the special effects. You take the movie battleship back to the era and people would be hailing it as a masterpiece.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Star Wars is like 40k accept with simplistic story lines, lack of any moral ambiguity (Buddhist Jedi against Space Nazis), anything over pg 13, death of main characters, real gakky behavior by all sides. Darth Vader would gak his pants after spending ten minutes on any planet in the warhammer universe.
Wow, what a compelling argument. I have seen the Light! Omnissiah be praised!
this, we should compare SW to Star trek, and 40k to.. um. starshiptroopers?
Agreed, SW and Star trek are annoying morality tales meant to make us optimistic about the future. 40k and Starship Troopers are meant to be grimdark and make us say about our current world, you know maybe things aren't so bad after all.
Okay then... on the topic of GE vs IoM the IoM would probably win. Power Armor is far stronger than Stormtrooper armor. Clone armor is much stronger than Stormtrooper armor by a great margin but Stormtrooprer armor has better enviromental capabilities.
As for weapons a Stormtrooper E-11 blaster rifle as noted can bust holes in walls and is superior to a Lasgun Though not as good as an actual Bolter.
As for Vehicles it's kinda even AT-STs and AT-ATs are not all they have. They have a HUGE armament of vehicles compared to the IoM LARGE Amount of vehicles.
GE has better Super Weapons and (probably) better heroes.
Spess: Probably even. Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers vs The Imperial Fleet
Final verdict: The IoM will win do to numbers and Spess Mahrens. If the GE had Alien Stormtroopers then they would have had moar of a chance and possibly even have won. (STORMWOOKIES!)
If it was multiple factions then the IoM would most likely lose. What with Mixed species Rebels, GE Stormtroopers, and Yuuzhen Vong then it'd be pretty even. (YUUZHEN BIO-TECH!)
Well if it was multiple factions IOM would have every 40k faction since that's what you give GE.Nids eat biomatter.What's yuzzhang Von stuff made of? .The empire would lose space simply because:How big is a star destroyer which is their main ship?How big is an Imperium ESCORT ship?The empire have like six Super star destroyers If you ignore timeline.How many ships bigger then that do the Imperium have?thousands.(maybe hundreds but still.LOTS)Death stars:Lets try a Imperium fleet against it.Now since it takes night lords seconds to destroy a planet that I'm pretty sure was mainly metal I doubt a death star would last very long.
shinros wrote: I wonder why we are comparing these two universes? They are pretty different in my opinion.
this, we should compare SW to Star trek, and 40k to.. um. starshiptroopers?
When you say Star Trek are we talking just Federation, or Star Trek on the whole? Because I'm pretty sure Q would just conjure up a bowl of popcorn and sit back.
this, we should compare SW to Star trek, and 40k to.. um. starshiptroopers?
Agreed, SW and Star trek are annoying morality tales meant to make us optimistic about the future. 40k and Starship Troopers are meant to be grimdark and make us say about our current world, you know maybe things aren't so bad after all.
Star Wars is not a morality tale to make us optimistic about the future.It takes place a long time ago. And (IIRC) it is basically based off another Sci-Fi story.
this, we should compare SW to Star trek, and 40k to.. um. starshiptroopers?
Agreed, SW and Star trek are annoying morality tales meant to make us optimistic about the future. 40k and Starship Troopers are meant to be grimdark and make us say about our current world, you know maybe things aren't so bad after all.
Happyjew wrote:Star Wars is not a morality tale to make us optimistic about the future.It takes place a long time ago. And (IIRC) it is basically based off another Sci-Fi story.
- Star Trek is a platform for Sci-fi writing that took a heavy injection of moralism by the 1990s. TNG and DS9 alternate some of the best stories in the history of Trek with others that are basically "Dr. Quinn, medicine woman" with aliens and spaceships.
- Star Wars IS a tale about the downfall and redemption of a man, paralled with a Campbellian story about the making of a hero. Nothing about optimism or even the future here - Star Wars could have been set in medieval Japan without losing a iota of meaning.
- Starship Troopers is a coming-of-age story aimed at young readers.
- Star Trek is a platform for Sci-fi writing that took a heavy injection of moralism by the 1990s. TNG and DS9 alternate some of the best stories in the history of Trek with others that are basically "Dr. Quinn, medicine woman" with aliens and spaceships.
- Star Wars IS a tale about the downfall and redemption of a man, paralled with a Campbellian story about the making of a hero. Nothing about optimism or even the future here - Star Wars could have been set in medieval Japan without losing a iota of meaning.
- Starship Troopers is a coming-of-age story aimed at young readers.
Da krimson barun wrote: The empire would lose space simply because:How big is a star destroyer which is their main ship?How big is an Imperium ESCORT ship?
Size doesn't matter. All that matters is firepower and defense, a big ship with awful guns will lose to a small ship with better firepower and defense. For example, a single Culture warship is a few hundred meters long, but could effortlessly destroy the entire Imperial navy if it didn't get bored first.
- Star Trek is a platform for Sci-fi writing that took a heavy injection of moralism by the 1990s. TNG and DS9 alternate some of the best stories in the history of Trek with others that are basically "Dr. Quinn, medicine woman" with aliens and spaceships.
- Star Wars IS a tale about the downfall and redemption of a man, paralled with a Campbellian story about the making of a hero. Nothing about optimism or even the future here - Star Wars could have been set in medieval Japan without losing a iota of meaning.
- Starship Troopers is a coming-of-age story aimed at young readers.
- 40k is an overblown political joke
40k is a setting, that many stories with different themes can and do reside in.
If a imperium ship can destroy planets I'm pretty sure it can take down a star destroyer.As a matter of fact:We have NO idea what happens to lance and turbolaser shots when they hit enemy shields.
The main difference with the two universes is one takes place in a real place which we know of: The Milky Way; and Star Wars takes place in its own Galaxy. We do not know the scale of the SW galaxy, so estimating numbers is pretty difficult.
If i'm honest the Idea that the Imperium is made up of a million worlds is pretty laughable, the spread of the Imperium would mean that the actual concentration of worlds within the Imperial "border" would be tiny.
Even if the Imperium were to inhabit only habitable earth-like worlds, we are talking 40 billion planets of this category, say the Imperium only controlled a tenth, thats a billion. If we go simply for habitable earth like planets orbiting sun-like stars, thats about 11 billion candidates, assuming 10% then a billion, As we have seen the Imperium inhabits plenty of dead and feral worlds, so this number of worlds should be even greater.
With these figures the populations we are talking about are truly staggering and in some sense make the kind of losses the Imperial guard see seem pretty inconsiquential. This is the main problem for any invasion, the logistic of destroying the Imperium are unimaginable, billions of people mean nothing, those numbers could be made up in weeks or even days.
The Star Wars galaxy even if its is a much smaller galaxy the same rules would apply. This further shows just how completely ridiculous some of the Star Wars scale is: The Grand Army of the Republic being 5 million strongish for example... 40k is far closer to the mark in this regard but is still too small in scale, despite everything.
Its partly due to the nature of Warp Travel. Systems that are close in the physical sense might be inaccessible directly by warp. You may have to take a long way around to get to it.
Having a million worlds in a galaxy full of hostile aliens and other lesser empires isn't silly. The Imperium doesn't have defined set borders. Its more of a collection of Islands in a sea of hostility.
The Imperium doesn't own even a majority of planets in the galaxy. its just the largest political entity in the Galaxy, which can still put them at only a tiny amount of the planets.
And even with only a million planets, only a fraction of which are hive worlds, we still have insane population numbers.
Zookie wrote: Star Wars has a much bigger library and the Star Wars universes is a lot more developed.
But more developed is not necessarily better. 40k makes good use of unreliable narration, so discontinuity and plot holes are part of the fun. No matter what you read in 40k you never really know if you are getting the “real” story.
Since Star Wars has tight creative controls over the license you can’t have nearly as much creative freedom in that universe as you can in 40K.
I prefer the W40K BL material over most of the Star Wars EU. As much as I love Star Wars, nearly everything post Return of the Jedi is a bunch of convoluted weird stories and plots that don't even feel like Star Wars. The Vong don't feel like they belong at all, and the whole story of the galactic invasion was poorly executed.
The only era I recommended is the Old Republic. Most of it is well-written and properly executed without a large amount of discontinuity.
Also, as for the Stormtroopers, they were actually winning Endor. They only lost when the ATST showed up. As for their armor, it wouldn't stop a lasgun, just as the IG flak armor wouldn't either. Plastoid works like a ballistic vest. You can actually survive a point-blank blaster shot so long as it wasn't a high powered blaster or a glancing hit, so long as a medic comes by. However, plastoid is extremely effective at deflecting all melee attacks, IIRC, a Stormtrooper recruit was hit by a thrown spear from what I think was a wiki, that sent him flying through a room and smashed into a wall. The armor wasn't even dangerously damaged and the recruit survived. However, if it hits the body glove they wear, while vacuum sealed, is easily penetrated with enough force from a combat knife or spear.
As for quality, Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers tend to be better than Imperial Guardsmen. However, there's simply an outlandish numbers difference that would take months to solve (the Empire has access to Spaarti cloning chambers. With the know-how, you can reduce the cloning time to weeks and raise an army in the billions in a month if you went industrial and built them on every planet. The problem is doing so and finding out how to prevent the clones from going insane due to the speed at which they were created.).
All of their weapons would cause similar damage due to death, although I think the typical lasgun has greater range than most weapons a Stormtrooper from the Galactic Empire has access to besides snipers.
As for the ships, some EU material boosted Star Wars to stupid levels. Incredible Cross Sections gave the Acclamator (old carrier cruiser from the clone wars) a yield of 200 gigatons per shot from its main guns. The Imperial Class Star Destroyers should not only have more powerful shots, but also in greater numbers. Plus, Star Wars ships have way better FTL and FTL speed (unless you count the possibility of random time travel) than the IOM, that also doesn't run the risk of having your face clawed off by Daemons.
I've been in these discussions before. It typically boils down to, in a fight, the Galactic Empire's ships running circles around the Imperium and striking worlds with heavy firepower, then running the minute they show up. However, whenever the IOM brings its best heavy hitters to play (which they also have in greater numbers than the GE's biggest ships like the Executor and Eclipse Classes), the Empire has to immediately fold all its resources and retreat.
As for why the Rebels won- a greater portion of the galaxy hated the Galactic Empire (and main characters have Doctor Who levels of plot shields). They would be constantly bogged down in effective resistance cells, similar to how Nazi Germany got bogged down by Poland because their resistance forces were ex-military and trained well. It didn't help either that Palpatine specifically built the Empire to crumble upon his death, as to prevent assassination.
However, the Galactic Empire did survive the Civil War and still is around over a hundred years ABY. Just vastly different.
Wyzilla wrote: As for their armor, it wouldn't stop a lasgun, just as the IG flak armor wouldn't either.
Except, Flak armour very clearly does stop lasgun shots. Just 1/3 of the time.
Depends on the calcs for the lasgun in the novel. Lasgun calcs vary between light lasers to boom guns that blow off limbs/greater portions of a torso and blow apart concrete chunks. Blasters meanwhile focus on penetration an internal vaporization.
We are all trying to justify our comparisons of apples to oranges, I thought I'd put that out there.
Anyways, for context's sake, try to think of that simple flak armor as a close comparison to modern-day Kevlar. Changes perspective, knowing it's not just cardboard, eh?
KommissarKiln wrote: We are all trying to justify our comparisons of apples to oranges, I thought I'd put that out there.
Anyways, for context's sake, try to think of that simple flak armor as a close comparison to modern-day Kevlar. Changes perspective, knowing it's not just cardboard, eh?
No, Flak armor is a lot better than modern day kevlar. Just it does squat against the more powerful weapons above a lasgun. Doesn't help either it normally doesn't cover the majority of the body. Meanwhile, carapace armor is above and beyond flak, just as power armor is above carapace.
but back 
