So taking all the rumors from the main Astra Militarum thread, I've been trying to piece together how the codex will look like come Saturday. I am debating whether I should really buy it or not (my gaming group isnt super competetive, so playing with an older dex isnt taboo). Here's the arguments I have so far:
The good:
1) Improved orders, more orders
2) Pretty awesome warlord traits. Arguably the best of any codex released so far.
3) Being able to field Leman Russ tanks with a dirt cheap tank commander and 1 additional Russ (upto 2) as HQ. Oh and pretty nice tank orders, to boot!
4) better Leman Russ points cost balancing - nobody used to take the Punisher in the previous codex. Now, it is very much an option. Oh and the Eradicator got perhaps the best deal of all - massive points sink despite it never sucking in the previous codex. And Executioner also got a massive points sink, but has Gets Hot now. But hey - if you got a Primaris behind a squad of at least 2, it pays off and his prescience allows you to re-roll the gets hot rolls. Alternately, if your tank commander is Pask, you get this automatically as warlord trait.
5) Armored Sentinel massive points reduction - now more people will field these beauties.
6) Better Commissars - slight points reduction, don't automatically summary execute upon failing morale, and if you choose to, they don't auto-kill your sarges; also squad auto-passes morale upon summary execution, and you can attach them to pretty much every squad.
7) Much better Priests + Warhymns
8) Bullgryns (solid armor saves when in b2b, ability to protect units behind them by upping their cover save, and in combination with a priest, are there to stay, with a chance to re-roll their armor saves in cc. Now that's what I call a speed bump unit)
9) Cheaper vehicle upgrades all across the board, cheaper sniper rifles (3 sniper SWS squad costs 36 points now instead of the staggering 50 it used to in the old codex, making it a dirt cheap scoring unit that can hide and sit on an objective)
10) Veteran boost - their grenadiers doctrine dropped significantly in price and is now almost an auto-include.
11) Nork Deddog, like all the other Ogryns in this codex, gained HoW & lost furious charge, but dropped 25 points and gained a nice S8 AP3 concussive headbutt alternate special attack. And instead of making D6 attacks when he loses his last wound, he now makes 4 or can choose to do the headbutt and in both cases re-rolls all failed hits and wounds. In any case is more worth it now than he was in the previous codex.
12) Kell has dropped by 10 points and is otherwise largels the same.
13) Yarrick dropped a staggering 40 points in cost and kept most of his gear, but his unit is no longer Fearless and no longer re-rolls failed hits on the turn they charge; he also lost his Stubborn bubble and for some reason doesnt even grant it to his own unit (unlike Lord Commissars and Commissars in this new codex). However, he gained PE (Orks), Summary Execution (Yarrick couldnt perform this in the previous codex due to granting his unit fearless in the first place) and most importantly, can now issue upto 2 orders just like any Company Commander. His force field also got changed to a solid 4++ and his warlord trait is the one that makes your gunline surrounding him not take Leadership tests when taking casualties from shooting. I'd say the things he lost are insignificant compared to the things he gained AND his much lower points cost.
14) Techpriests have been buffed, such as being able to repair lost HPs and their servitors dropping in points. Oh and they now also have the ability to grant PotMS to a nearby tank.
15) Medic upgrade in the CCS only costs half as much now. Very handy, although FNP isnt what it used to be in 5th editon.
16) CONSCRIPTS! They got even cheaper now, also come with frags, and will see regular play being led by ministorum priests or comissars. The odd primaris psyker may also tag along and cast prescience on them since he has access to divination; all those BS2 lasgun re-rolls will be awesome.
17) Primaris Psyker. I like the new one. He does not occupy a valuable HQ slot, you can field upto 3 of them independently, and while they did lose their old (somewhat cool) powers, having access to multiple psychic disciplines (especially divination) means that for relatively low points costs you can use these guys as force multipliers on nearby shooty squads like Conscripts, Lascannon-HWS, Executioner LRs to prevent them from overheating etc. Just keep them out of harm's way.
18) Augur Arrays on vehicles - basically teleport homers that also work on any allied units. Precision deep strikes everywhere.
19) Better camo netting - not only points reduction, but they still work if your tank moved.
20) Deathstrike. Seriously. Nobody really took these in the old codex and I am really glad the new one has made them viable. The real damage this vehicle will do to your opponent is not physical, but psychological. I know i'd lose my shiz if there was a ticking time bomb sitting completely out of LoS in the enemy's deployment zone. It would cause me to make tactical errors and spread my units out and away from cover and have them annihilated by other Guard weapons before the Deathstrike even launched.
21) Knight Commander Pask. The biggest winner in the new codex. Elevated from what used to be an okayish upgrade for LR variants that needed a better Ballistic skill (Vanquisher, Punisher) to a literal MUST HAVE in the new AM codex. You can up the ballistic skill of LR tanks in the new codex, as well as get access to tank orders and D3 instead of D6 warlord traits via the default Tank Commander. What Pask (bought for the same amount of points as in the old IG codex as an additional upgrade over the tank commander upgrade) brings to the table is the default Warlord trait allowing his entire squadron to re-roll 1s (both to-hit AND to-wound!!!!) due to Preferred Enemy: Everything. He also lets your tank re-roll failed armor penetration rolls instead of just that +1 he used to have. And finally he gives the main turret weapon of each LR variant a unique special ability - e.g. rending for the LR Punisher, making it the most ridiculous bullethose in the entire IG arsenal - being able to severely cripple anything that comes in its range, from infantry to MCs to even Land Raiders thanks to the plethora of USRs working in concert.
22) Incandescent Blast. People don't realize how good this is. Thanks to GW's crappy blind rule wording, 8 models hit by Pask's Executioner Incandescent Blast means 8 blind tests for the affected unit. This is brilliant. 7th edition might fix this though.
23) IG got a lot better as an allied detachment choice for non-IG players, as well. Earlier, you had to take a CCS or Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker as "tax" for the mandatory HQ and then look for a way to keep them effective. In the new codex, a 30 point tank commander is all you need to get going, though you now have to take a minimum of 2 Russes if you go with this option. But that usually wont be much of an issue, as people willing to ally with IG are mostly doing so for access to Russes in the first place. And a 30 point HQ that gives one of your Russes BS4 and tank orders is pure win, in my opinion.
24) Taurox Prime (expensive glass cannon, but a very mobile BS4 anti-tank unit at 100 pts.)
25) Wyvern (shining gem of the new codex - essentially more than a replacement for the Griffon; the Wyvern MURDERS infantry in the new 7th edition rules).
26) Tempestus Scion command squad (looks cool modelwise, and ruleswise the concept of spamming 4 hot shot volley guns is also sweet).
The neutral:
1) Valkyrie price hike. I dont mind this at all, since it is a flyer and thus far more survivable than in 5th edition which the previous codex was written for. Besides, given the points reduction of the Valkyrie's own upgrades, I think it evens out. What sucks is that Hellstrike missiles are virtually useless now because Ordnance reduces the BS for all other shots to 1.
2) Vendetta significant price hike and transport capacity reduction. It was obviously necessary, but right now it is 10 points too much, IMO. But given their spam in the competitive meta, I'm not too peeved about this and can live with it, especially since it makes the Valkyrie more attractive. As if a Vendetta alone wasnt bad enough, Vendettas spamming triple melta Vets was a nightmare. Now that is gone, you can still spam triple Melta SWS with them, though, although this requires an infantry platoon. Such is the way of bringing balance to the meta, I guess. As long as the Night Scythe gets a points hike in the coming Cron codex, I'll be fine with this. Let's leave the Chaos players with their overpowered Helldrake, since the rest of their codex sucks balls anyways.
3) Chimeras going up in price. I agree that after the Wave Serpent, Chimeras really were one of the most dakka laden dedicated transports in the game, so spamming them (even in 6th ed's hullpoint era) wasnt a bad decision, but was a 10 point increase really necessary? ESPECIALLY when the Inquisition codex still lists them at their original points cost? GW just doesnt seem to be able to make their mind up even within the same edition it seems. Unless of course they stealth update it, given that the Inquisition codex is digital only.
4) meh relics.
5) Ogryns didnt really get fixed - they lost furious charge for HoW. Which is bad because a 3 man unit of Ogryns charging used to get 12 S6 I3 attacks in the old codex, while in the new ones this charge only yields 12 S5 I2 +3 S5 HoW attacks. But on the pro side you can now attach priests to them and they will benefit from war hymns, so have fun re-rolling ALL their wounds in close combat everytime the priest passes his LD test (which is kinda meh, to be honest). As well as hits for the first round, because priests have the zealot special rule. Oh and quasi-fearless.
6) Ratlings. They can run after shooting now. Hoo-fething-ray. How often are we going to use this anyway?
7) The changes to Officer of the Fleet and Astropath. The former has now both abilities, but can only use one each turn, and also has to test before doing it. The latter is now a level 1 psyker that has access to Telepathy, so you're hoping to get Puppet Master or Invisibility with him. In all other instances, it is preferable for him to keep Psychic Shriek.
8) Stormtroopers. Namechange aside, the default 5 man squad got 15 points cheaper (so now each trooper costs as much as a space marine instead of 2 points more and there is no extra tax for the sarge) and comes with Move Through Cover by default, but lost their special operations missions, so no more Scouts (and with it, Outflank), no more Infiltrate or re-roll scatter or first turn pinning on their weapons.
9) The Manticore went up by 10 points AND cannot fire directly anymore. Oftentimes subtracting those 3 inches could make all the difference. On the other hand, if it suffers a weapon destroyed result, it no longer loses the entire Stormeagle rocket rack, so that's definitely a huge improvement. Still, given these other two nerfs we have to contend with, I'll put this one in the neutral department.
10) Creed can give one less order now, but for that can re-roll all failed order checks. He can use the Gunslinger USR to fire both his hot shot laspistols instead of counting them as a single twin-linked one, and while he did lose his ability to grant a single unit the Scouts USR, he makes up for it by being 10 points cheaper and being able to roll for an additional warlord trait now, increasing the chance to get the Grand Strategist warlord trait (outflank D3 units) from 16.66% to about 30%. Sadly he has lost the unique For the Honour of Cadia! order.
The ugly:
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
4) Bastonne is gone
5) Marbo is gone (and NO, he will NOT be coming back. Given the recent direction GW has been going in creating and trademarking their own IP, to the extent of not giving a flying frak about their players and rebranding the name of one of the most popular 40k armies just to be able to trademark the name, I am sure they will no longer openly continue to sell a model whose name is an obvious mockup of Sylvester (Stallone) / Rambo. Not in a million years will this guy come back in the form of a digital supplement, not as long Tom Kirby is running the business. At least, not with his current name. Bur seriously, when was the last time GW went to the lengths of changing an ICs name and bringing him back?)
6) Harker got nerfed into oblivion - costs the same, has relentless now (standardized GW policy of applying rulebook USRs instead of writing it out longhand in each codex), and the only new ability is that his Heavy Bolter got rending, but he lost his own feel no pain (no biggie in 6th - was good in 5th), but more importantly, his ability to grant veterans infiltrate, move through cover and stealth (dangit! I LIKED infiltrating one of my veteran squads (preferably the 3 melta and 1 Lascannon one) and also giving them forward sentries so they could start the game with 2+ cover (thanks to stealth + cloaks) close to enemy tanks and fry them, with Harker's HB providing anti-infantry support along with the rest of the BS4 lasguns, now this tactic is down the drain). He is now only worth 15 points, 20 if you add in the "coolness" tax. But CERTAINLY NOT the points cost in the new dex.
7) The Griffon is gone (still in FW Imperial Armor books with identical stats and identical points cost as in the old IG codex, so you can technically use your old IG dex as "counts-as" Imperial Armor book and decide to slap your friend with it if he says thats illegal) - in any case we got the Wyvern
8) The awesome Colossus is gone (see above)
9) The Medusa is gone (see above)
10) The Penal Legion is gone (okay nobody really took them anyway, but these guys had character! And a great way to play Colonel Schaeffer's Last Chancers)
11) The Hydra nerf. Like, seriously. Going from an original 4 tl-S7 AP4 shots solid infantry hunter with ignores cover on turboboosting bikes (good vs ork bikers) and skimmers moving fast (making it an excellent light vehicle hunter) to being 6th ed FAQ'd to have skyfire (goodbye infantry hunter, but hello flyers, FMCs and still effective against skimmers) and ignores jink to just 4 tl-S7 AP4 skyfire AND OPEN TOPPED NOW for a mere 5 points reduction is hard to digest. Purchasing the closed crew compartment upgrade will bring it to 85 points, which is 10 points COSTLIER than the previous codex' iteration. Minus the ignores jink errata. Despite 7th edition's interceptor nerf, the fact that the ADL Quadgun at least has it, and that it can be fired by BS4 IG troopers, and that it is cheaper than the Hydra make it a more lucrative choice now (also because you dont have to pay extra $$$ for it if you buy an ADL, which most IG players now already have). Well at least the Hydra can move and shoot, and can be taken in a battery and thus will provide reliable AA concentration in higher point games.
12) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit that got stronger with each additional psyker into a mastery level 1 psyker with inferior rulebook powers and now also only LD8 instead of LD9 for the same points cost. Compared with Primaris Psykers, they're even worse because of their inferior LD and the fact that they occupy an Elites slot. Their only pro side is their larger body (and thus wound) count, and the fact that you can hide the majority of them behind LoS blocking terrain and have one guy pop out and do all the casting till he dies, and then rinse and repeat, while the Primaris Psyker is more vulnerable.
13) points cost increase for plasma pistol and power weapons on BS3 / S3 / I3 characters from 10 to 15. really, GW? Power weapons on IG were eye candy to begin with, now you punish us even more for this.
14) 5 years on, they still haven't realized that the Heavy Bolter should not be as costly as the Autocannon or nobody will take them because the Autocannon simply is the better option due to additional range and additional strength, at the cost of 1 shot. The HB should have gone down in price and cost the same as a Mortar, but NOPE. GW doesnt care.
15) We did not get any (non-D-weapon-toting) Baneblade variant as a super heavy even though Imperial Knights as super heavy walkers with D strength weapons are out and about.
16) The Taurox. An absolute disappointment, ruleswise. 11/10/10 seriously? That makes it more fragile than a Rhino! And its FIFTEEN points costlier than a Rhino, to boot.
17) No Solar Macharius, Gaunt or Schaeffer. We waited 5 years and still they aren't bothered to write them in. Imma slap anyone who brings up the word dataslate as retaliation.
18) Every army that has been updated so far by GW in 6th edition, got something powerful and nice to play with that shifted the meta. Chaos - Hellturkey. Tau - Riptide. Eldar - Wraithknight. Space Marines - Centurion Devastators. I think the Tyranid's new Flyer also performs pretty well. What awesome new unit did we get? Nothing. The Taurox sucks, the Hydra is faaar from scary now and the Wyvern is perhaps the only semi-decent new tank that was added to our arsenal. But more anti-GEQ firepower is exactly what we wanted. Right? .....right? It's not like we didn't have Eradicators and Manticores or simply massed lasgun fire to get the job done. Okay, we have the Paskisher, I'll give you that, but the Paskisher wasnt a pushover in the old codex either.
19) Rough Riders ACTUALLY GOT WORSE. 5 years of waiting for.... what? +1 point increase? You're kidding me, GW. You are seriously kidding me. Sure, Beasts & Cavalry can move 12" and assault 2D6" now instead of moving 6" and assaulting 12" like they did in 5th edition, and also have HoW now (woooow), but given the power lance AP nerf, Rough Riders still suck, and without Mogul Kamir, arguably even harder now.
20) no improvement for the Hellhound, Banewolf and Devil Dog. In fact, the latter went up by 10 points. Okay, so its blast strength is no longer halved if the central hole scatters off the target vehicle, and it can move 12" and also fire its hull mounted multi-melta at normal BS now in 6th, so I guess the small points increase was justified. However, the Banewolf still lacks torrent to even be worth taking, and, given how Eradicators have gained a significant price drop, the Hellhound (even back in 5th this one used to be the only semi-competetive option) is almost not worth considering anymore, unless you build a mechanized chimera list that zooms 12" and has Hellhounds keep up with them compared to the much slower Russes.
21) Straken. He received a staggering 35 point increase and gained the fearless, monster hunter and smash special rules (his attacks ignore all armor saves due to Smash granting AP2, but because 7th edition nerfed the smash double strength special attacks to just one attack, his 2D6 armor pen is now only possible with the single special smash attack) and is now forced to issue and accept challenges. Everything else stayed the same, except him losing his counter-attack and furious charge bubble from 12" to 6". His default warlord trait makes his CCS relentless, so thats great news for the Lascannon upgrade, but otherwise I'd say this guy actually got worse in CC and his huge points cost just does not make him worth it. However, a good way for die hard Catachan fans to use him is give his CCS a Lascannon and a MoO and put him in a Chimera. Monster Hunter also works on the units' shooting as it applies to every model in a squad so long as just one model possesses the rule; a Master of Ordnance and a Lascannon that both shoot from the top hatch of the Chimera, re-rolling to-wound against monstrous creatures is sure to hurt ground-based Tyranid armies!
Make of the codex what you will. Personally I think they had the chance to make an awesome codex until they decided to just snip away stuff left, right and centre. Oh and made a couple units that were cool, more than redundant in the current dex - why? Because reasons.
I dont see too much of a problem. I have all the imperial guard books and they all got changed up each edition. People talk favorably about those editions.
I dont like the removal of non special character units (such as the rumored artillery) But Guard characters can still be used as commanders or replacement special characters for new ones.
BUT if Marbo is gone for good im gonna be annoyed. Who doesnt have a marbo? More importantly who didnt have fun making their marbo? I will miss marbo dundee. Sigh.
I mean it could be worse, could be better, but what isnt in that situation.
When did the 5th edition codex come out? I remember it coming out but I never played guard at the time unfortunately so didnt pay attention.
I dont normally buy without testing but I feel confident in buying this book. Lets see if it was a dumb move.
I do love the new commissar rules though. No more will my officers be executed for no reason.
Charles Rampant wrote: For the love of god guys, get a grip. The book isn't even out yet and already your endless weeping and lamentation is filling the void.
Yeah, we may be pleasantly surprised. Probably not though
I'd really like it if GW actually explained why changes were made or why some things stayed the same and gave reasonings behind them rather than making themselves seem immensely arbitrary.
Well, I was thinking about starting an IG army. (Of CHAOS!!!) but it makes me sad to hear that ogryn weren't fixed. I'd have loved to convert a squad of them.
Nevie wrote: Well, I was thinking about starting an IG army. (Of CHAOS!!!) but it makes me sad to hear that ogryn weren't fixed. I'd have loved to convert a squad of them.
They lost their frag grenades, they lost Stubborn and they lost Furious Charge. Talk about nerf...
They gained relentless (wtf), krak grenades and hammer of wrath in exchange.
Nevie wrote: Well, I was thinking about starting an IG army. (Of CHAOS!!!) but it makes me sad to hear that ogryn weren't fixed. I'd have loved to convert a squad of them.
They lost their frag grenades, they lost Stubborn and they lost Furious Charge. Talk about nerf...
They gained relentless (wtf), krak grenades and hammer of wrath in exchange.
Stubborn is the big problem as it makes running them off the board much easier. Especially when Ogryns have such terrible leadership scores for such expensive models.
Kain wrote: I'd really like it if GW actually explained why changes were made or why some things stayed the same and gave reasonings behind them rather than making themselves seem immensely arbitrary.
It'd at least make me feel better.
I may not be from GW, but I can let you in on the summary of corporate meetings over the last two years.
GW CEO "our records show that in the last edition, models X, Y and Z sold really well, good job everyone!, now with 6th edition we need to spice it up a bit, we have these new models over here that jeff is really proud of, how can we get models a, b, and C to out sell xyz?"
GW Lackey, "well we could just make the x, y and z not quite as good as a b and c, I mean really bad."
GW CEO "great idea! now we have these other models we have rules for, but no models, we don't want those pricks over at chapterhouse to take our money again, so let's just tear those units out!"
GW lackeys "HUZZAH! now they have to pay the overpiced cost for a forgeworld book just to play that model!!!"
GW CEO: "that's right, i was such a genius for saying that anything we put out is legal to play in any game! which is funny, because we are after all, a 'model company' so we don't need to worry about balance or fair play, but we will charge the hell out of them for rules!
jason1977 wrote: Wait till the book is in hand. Dont trust the rumors.
The 'rumours' at this point are screencaps of previews, pre-release books, and pictures of the actual, legit book.
While true, not everything is confirmed.
No, but at the same time, people aren't bemoaning the unconfirmed aspects. Things like the removal of several units have been confirmed though, as have several point values for units.
Alternatively, I haven't heard a peep about Hellhounds, which I'd be interested in knowing more about.
All of them probably end up in a heros of the AM DLC a few weeks after the AM codex comes out .
Here is for hoping we get realy powerful orders and the warlord traits are realy good and not something like , AM can shot rapid fire weapons and then charge .
No idea why they made a new model like hydra so bad. Do they want all AM players to use tau as ally or FW in areas where FW is allowed?
Great list Sir Arun. You summed up my thoughts exactly. Its very difficult to see the good that will come out of this codex with the overwhelming nerfs to almost the entire codex. Did we see some awesome buffs in some areas? Yes, but at the cost of half of the codex's versatility. The new codex will have 2-3 builds that are effective & everything else will not be tournament viable. Did GW really think we wouldn't notice losing like 50% or more of our special characters? I was actually really excited about the new Ogryn models. Saw the rules, nope.
Makumba wrote: No idea why they made a new model like hydra so bad. Do they want all AM players to use tau as ally or FW in areas where FW is allowed?
Probably because whoever wrote the rules (I won't dignify them with the title "game designer") is still stuck in early 5th, when Hydras were considered overpowered. Playtesting that would spot the mistake is too expensive according to GW, so we're stuck with a new kit for a unit that is already too weak to use, with new rules that make it even weaker.
Alternatively, yes, GW wants you to ally in FW stuff and spend more money. But only after you buy a few of the new Hydra kits to try them out!
Makumba wrote: No idea why they made a new model like hydra so bad. Do they want all AM players to use tau as ally or FW in areas where FW is allowed?
Probably because whoever wrote the rules (I won't dignify them with the title "game designer") is still stuck in early 5th, when Hydras were considered overpowered. Playtesting that would spot the mistake is too expensive according to GW, so we're stuck with a new kit for a unit that is already too weak to use, with new rules that make it even weaker.
Alternatively, yes, GW wants you to ally in FW stuff and spend more money. But only after you buy a few of the new Hydra kits to try them out!
But it is odd , they make stuff like buffmanders and skyfire/interceptor riptides and then make something like the hydra . An AA gun without interceptor makes no sense and it doesn't require much playtesting . If something has a big ass turret and is mounted on a chimera hull , then the chance to survive to turn 2 , if the opposing army has important flyer units, is slim . Maybe your right they want us to buy them in squadrons in 2500+pts base games , maybe it is that.
Did we see some awesome buffs in some areas? Yes, but at the cost of half of the codex's versatility. The new codex will have 2-3 builds that are effective & everything else will not be tournament viable.
I would be happy if we had 3 different builds out of the codex. Eldar have 2 , not counting the titan one with escalation . Tau have two too , depending what ever they take eldar or farsight as ally. Having 3 builds without ally would make AM the best codex in 6th.
I'm a guard player. That means keeping up the guard rules as they change over time. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player. I'd be a person who plays a guard-like army with old rules.
Like the rules or don't like them, I'm still going to be buying them.
And if ogryn indeed have lost stubborn, that's not much of a loss. At Ld7 with no choice of rerolls you had to provide them with external leadership support anyways. They could have been reduced to Ld2 for all I care - my ogryn always use commissar's leadership anyways.
Get things straight, if we whine and moan now, when the codex is released we can only be pleasantly surprised with such low expectations!
I had been building up my IG for a while now so I will be as brutal as possible in figuring out at least a "half decent" build for these guys. Failing that, finding a good army to ally with.
I had made a Medusa... who would have figured they would trim down the choices rather than add.
I am a bit concerned in the designer direction that they feel the "theme" of IG is the people so open topped vehicles for everyone!! I must grumble something about "hostile environments", "life is portrayed as not cheap but expendable like snotlings" and fine, can you fix the Basilisk shortage so I get more of that weird artillery at my local hobby shop?
Will see what we can do with the Ogryn, it would be nice to find an excuse to at least have one squad. The ratlings have had their days so they need theirs.
Why do I have a suspicion this army is only good for Tanks and hordes of guys all over the place?
Anyway, await the codex and we can drown the "white knights" in a sea of lamenting...
Yes you should buy it. If anything, it is going to be a refreshing change to try out some new builds. To top it off , codexes are always a good read as well.
So, they got rid of every Basilisk variant other than the Basilisk, all of your special characters that didn't have models, the Penal Legion, got their Plasma Pistols/Power Weapons increased to be in line with every other army and, didn't buff your close combat units?
I guess some of that sucks, but really, not buffing close combat units in the Imperial Gunline army? Or not getting a Superheavy in your codex (when it's a lord of war)? Yeah, the Imperial Knights change things a bit, but, honestly, the Imperial Knights will probably stay the only Superheavys in 40k w/o Escalation, so people have a reason to buy them.
Might buy plastic ogryn for my free bootaz... maybe.
Depends if GW wants to burn them...I mean they already have two miniatures so I don't think they'd 'have' to to be consistent with protecting their ip...but who knows, maybe that happens.
blaktoof wrote: I don't see what the problem for the taurox is.
Mostly that it's redundant. IG squads are fragile, so they need a transport that can protect them. And that means the Chimera or Valkyrie/Vendetta, not a weaker Rhino. The extra firepower of the Taurox doesn't make up for its failure to do its job properly, you can get guns from every other part of the codex. And the insult to injury is that the Chimera just got nerfed, possibly to make the cheaper Taurox that nobody wanted seem more appealing.
blaktoof wrote: I don't see what the problem for the taurox is.
Yeah its side armor is 1 less than a rhino.
But it has much better armament, and can be a fast vehicle.
Its basically a non skimmer DE like vehicle, gives more variety to guard.
It's a ridiculously flimsy metal box that doesn't have the speed, certainly not the firepower, or saves that make Dark Eldar vehicles viable.
It is an answer to precisely none of the problems a Guard army faces and seems to mostly exist because a model designer really wanted a Buffalo MRAP in the Imperial Guard.
Barksdale wrote: To top it off , codexes are always a good read as well.
Except the old IG codex is 104 pages and the new AM codex is... 104 pages.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: I don't see what the problem for the taurox is.
Yeah its side armor is 1 less than a rhino.
But it has much better armament, and can be a fast vehicle.
only if you play Stormtroopers Codex
Honestly I'd pick a Multilaser and a Heavy Bolter over a twin-linked autocannon anyday. With the Chimera I have the option of at least hiding somewhere and presenting AV12 to the enemy and firing away, or rushing forward 18" and hoping for the best with dual heavy flamers. The Taurox is maybe 20 points cheaper and can re-roll difficult terrain tests, but I dont think many guard players would switch to them from Chimeras also because everyone has a handful of these lying around, but would have to purchase taurox kits and right now there is no incentive.
From preliminary information, I'm not excited at all about this release, and will not be pre-ordering anything. It certainly looks like IG are going to get the Tyranid and CSM treatment. Few units that needed help are going to get it, units that were largely OK are going to get the nerfbat, a couple of the old broken unit are getting really hammered, a bunch of new stuff that nobody asked for that's not particularly impressive will be added, and some other units will be flat out removed. Color me unimpressed.
That said, once the book comes out, I'll give it a good read over and may have to adjust my perceptions accordingly.
However, if my current perceptions hold, I'm going to be sticking to Imperial Armour books for the next few years it looks like.
All the cool characters that made me want to play IG are now gone? What replaced them?
This is more proof that GW is going downhill at an increasing rate. The Taurox looks so awful it's like something from a Nintendo game...
Also what's up with the measly 102 page codex? Seems like a rip. Also the Municipal Cafeteria Codex or whatever the other new one is called, what's up with that? 72 pages? Baloney! And to think I was considering buying some of the new GW books... what a joke.
The tyranid rumours even shortly before release contained a huge amount of BS/wishlisting that proved incorrect. So maybe some of this is wrong for the IG dex. If the dex does end up as Vaktathi described above, then if following the tyranid treatment IG players can expect dataslates/formations or supplements to come out bringing back some of the units/rules and/or flavour that may be removed or not added.
At this stage it wouldn't surprise me since we are talking about GW - why include everything in an overpriced dex when we can get players to buy the dex and additional rule releases to try to have a complete dex. At least for as long as players except these types of shenanigans.
Out of curiosity are the rumors about Doctrines gone entirely? Because Ill be honest if there are no Doctrines present in the new book then I will be sticking to my FWIG and probably a Space Marine army. Not turning my nose up at the book just yet, however I do think the Hydra in particular is a stupid way to go, Skyfire but no interceptor?
The mere concept that a new book has to make previous strategies invalid is super dumb having played a lot more different games over the past year.
Why not add new strategies and units or special characters instead of deleting many and invalidating previously viable armies? What, was Chimera spam too much of a winning power house? Wait, they don't care about that. So is there suddenly a narrative that the new MRAP tank is taking away from production of Chimeras, thus the cost to manufactur has gone up making them rarer?
Defending these new releases makes people look silly. They are actively abusing loyal player bases now after Tyranids. There's no reason that the formations couldn't have been in the book, more so after deleting units and invalidating different play styles.
If that is true about the Hydra, maybe interceptor will come out a few weeks after dex release in a dataslate/supplement - but you will have to have 6 hydra in your list (gotta sell the models)
darkcloak wrote: All the cool characters that made me want to play IG are now gone? What replaced them?
This is more proof that GW is going downhill at an increasing rate. The Taurox looks so awful it's like something from a Nintendo game...
*Cough*Huge Nintendo fan and Metroid/Mario loremaster*Cough*
I like Nintendo too, but I don't want to scoot my army dolls around in Diddy Kong Karts...
Anyone who thinks Nintendo isn't capable of serious or genuinely scary designs has never played Kirby, Metroid (the prime saga especially), looked at Zelda in depth; or went through the last bit of Earthbound where the cutsey story took a complete 180.
darkcloak wrote: All the cool characters that made me want to play IG are now gone? What replaced them?
This is more proof that GW is going downhill at an increasing rate. The Taurox looks so awful it's like something from a Nintendo game...
*Cough*Huge Nintendo fan and Metroid/Mario loremaster*Cough*
I like Nintendo too, but I don't want to scoot my army dolls around in Diddy Kong Karts...
Anyone who thinks Nintendo isn't capable of serious or genuinely scary designs has never played Kirby, Metroid (the prime saga especially), looked at Zelda in depth; or went through the last bit of Earthbound where the cutsey story took a complete 180.
Oh yeah, the end game of Earthbound / Mother is messed up. Such sweet, sweet nightmare fuel was made that day.
If the Taurox was redundant, that would be alright. But it's not as good as the Chimera and really serves no purpose.
Its sad if "redundant" would be an improvement.
Don't do it. Play an older Imperial Guard (screw this trademark bs) codex with your friends. Update the rules yourself for the 6th edition, if you insist on playing 6th (which I'd also heavily advise against).
GW can only make the game as miserable as you let them. Enjoying 40k without GW is my new philosophy and has worked out quite well.
No worries, nobody used him in official games anyway. Although he was awesome for casual games and proxies.
2) Al Rahem is gone
He shall be missed, although I can see why they'd axe him. Maybe he's getting replaced by something good!
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
I'm starting to feel like they're taking away too many special characters. Okay, whatever. Still sounds fine.
4) Bastonne is gone
I begin to feel annoyed.
5) Harker is gone
Wait, what? Seriously? Are you really serious? *takes a deep breath*. Okay. I can deal with this.
6) Sly Marbo is gone
I'm starting to feel a little abused.
7) The Griffon is gone
A lot abused
8) The awesome Colossus is gone
No.... please no.
9) The Medusa is gone
THE BEES! Not the bees! They're in my eyes!
10) The Penal Legion is gone
It hurts! The bees! Aaagh, they're raping me!
Sounding to me like the first friggin' codex that has less options than the codex published before it. I mean, wtf? The only thing I was really looking forward to was the Bullgryns. I'm still buying it because you have to or be an absolute relic if you play Guard, but I'm unhappy about it. Especially because I use lots of special characters and fluffy choices.
No worries, nobody used him in official games anyway. Although he was awesome for casual games and proxies.
2) Al Rahem is gone
He shall be missed, although I can see why they'd axe him. Maybe he's getting replaced by something good!
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
I'm starting to feel like they're taking away too many special characters. Okay, whatever. Still sounds fine.
4) Bastonne is gone
I begin to feel annoyed.
5) Harker is gone
Wait, what? Seriously? Are you really serious? *takes a deep breath*. Okay. I can deal with this.
6) Sly Marbo is gone
I'm starting to feel a little abused.
7) The Griffon is gone
A lot abused
8) The awesome Colossus is gone
No.... please no.
9) The Medusa is gone
THE BEES! Not the bees! They're in my eyes!
10) The Penal Legion is gone
It hurts! The bees! Aaagh, they're raping me!
Sounding to me like the first friggin' codex that has less options than the codex published before it. I mean, wtf? The only thing I was really looking forward to was the Bullgryns. I'm still buying it because you have to or be an absolute relic if you play Guard, but I'm unhappy about it. Especially because I use lots of special characters and fluffy choices.
its funny because of how the last IG codex was an infinite improvement over the pre-previous (3rd ed) one. It added so many new variants that used to be FW only and now GW takes it away from us again. maybe thats the reason people are whining.
I'm not convinced at all that they completely got rid of all guard special characters. Perhaps they might be in a dataslate, but they're not all gone forever. Not unless they added in a huge new heap of special characters to replace them.
I'd be sad if respawning conscripts got removed from the game, though. That was a fun way to play infantry platoons, and the only way I could get them to be decently powerful in 6th ed.
---
Also, on the GW website, the description of the codex includes:
Full descriptions of all the characters, units and vehicles available to the Astra Militarum; including each units role on the battlefield, its rules and unique skills.
Ailaros wrote: I'm not convinced at all that they completely got rid of all guard special characters. Perhaps they might be in a dataslate, but they're not all gone forever. Not unless they added in a huge new heap of special characters to replace them.
I'd be sad if respawning conscripts got removed from the game, though. That was a fun way to play infantry platoons, and the only way I could get them to be decently powerful in 6th ed.
You'll get your respawning troops in a dataslate for the low price of your right testicle.
Sir Arun wrote: its funny because of how the last IG codex was an infinite improvement over the pre-previous (3rd ed) one. It added so many new variants that used to be FW only and now GW takes it away from us again. maybe thats the reason people are whining.
Yeah.
Well and I think that the one problem with the old guard codex is that a lot of the fun options, like the special characters and elite choices, weren't worth using.
To fix this I wouldn't have piking removed them all! I would have done some rule changes, modified a few abilities. For example, I'd have have Al'Rahims ability be more useful. I would have given Penal Legions better special abilities, to make them actually feel like crazy combat vets instead of overcosted guardsmen. That sort of thing.
If they did remove all that (and it seems likely now), it's a step in the wrong direction.
Okay, Nintendo can do scary, resident evil 64 was sick. Castlevania? Also good.
But seriously, the Taurox looks like something out of a kid oriented video game. The new troopers look pretty weak too, like GW was planning a movie deal with Disney...
darkcloak wrote: Okay, Nintendo can do scary, resident evil 64 was sick. Castlevania? Also good.
But seriously, the Taurox looks like something out of a kid oriented video game. The new troopers look pretty weak too, like GW was planning a movie deal with Disney...
The general thought is that the Scions actually look pretty neat.
The Taurox is essentially what happens if you try to dieselpunk a buffalo MRAP though.
For those who want to wait and see what is in the book before buying I'll have it Friday night and will have an overview/review up on it the same night.
ClockworkZion wrote: For those who want to wait and see what is in the book before buying I'll have it Friday night and will have an overview/review up on it the same night.
Ohhh, thank you so much.
Make sure you describe the special characters and if rough riders are there.
ClockworkZion wrote: For those who want to wait and see what is in the book before buying I'll have it Friday night and will have an overview/review up on it the same night.
Ohhh, thank you so much.
Make sure you describe the special characters and if rough riders are there.
I always cover the whole thing. Even my impressions of the fluff (as I skim through it) and the art/model gallery. It'll be posted on TalkWargaming but I'll have a link in my signature and here, and the rumor thread. The views help offset the cost of a codex I'm buying only to review.
ClockworkZion wrote: For those who want to wait and see what is in the book before buying I'll have it Friday night and will have an overview/review up on it the same night.
I thought the new 6.5 rules say that you can use forgeworld approved stuff. So all of the heavy support stuff is in the AI books so they havent really gone anywhere (or was I only dreaming this?). Am pretty p***ed off aboot the characters tho :-/ long live marbo! He wasnt in 4th ed either so he will be back in 7th. . . .hopefully!
And thinking aboot it we are getting a 10pt hike on the chimera price and a 10pt drop on the vets. So the melta/plasma vets are going to be the same pts cost, minus the 3rd special weapon of corse. What other units do you buy chimeras for?
Useless Sidekick wrote: I thought the new 6.5 rules say that you can use forgeworld approved stuff. So all of the heavy support stuff is in the AI books so they havent really gone anywhere (or was I only dreaming this?). Am pretty p***ed off aboot the characters tho :-/ long live marbo! He wasnt in 4th ed either so he will be back in 7th. . . .hopefully!
And thinking aboot it we are getting a 10pt hike on the chimera price and a 10pt drop on the vets. So the melta/plasma vets are going to be the same pts cost, minus the 3rd special weapon of corse. What other units do you buy chimeras for?
TheKbob wrote: Taking one for the team or interest in IG? Either way, will be interested.
As neat as IG are they don't really get me interested in running them as an army, so the former not the latter.
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Sir Arun wrote: oh and when you do, make a comparison to the fluff present in the current IG codex i.e. how much of a copy-paste job it really ends up to be
If I do it, I'd need to do that as a separate post because that'd take a while to complete are everything.
OP: by your list, it looks like the goods already outweigh the bads.
Nobody uses most of those characters anyway. Marbo is a gimmick in an otherwise thoughtful and tactical army. He doesn't need to exist. And you have enough toys as it is that losing some of those other artillery pieces isn't going to matter.
Wilytank wrote: OP: by your list, it looks like the goods already outweigh the bads.
Nobody uses most of those characters anyway. Marbo is a gimmick in an otherwise thoughtful and tactical army. He doesn't need to exist. And you have enough toys as it is that losing some of those other artillery pieces isn't going to matter.
Taking away options is rarely a good idea for game balance. If they are broken, you change them; never cut them out. It is better to add onto them.
And thoughtful?
You mean "I park 200+ models in cover and never move once all game while shooting artillery and heavy weapons from across the map" right?
Also, the Guard by definition should have more and superior artillery than everyone else combined much as how their tanks should beat everyone elses point per point.
Also, the Guard by definition should have more and superior artillery than everyone else combined much as how their tanks should beat everyone elses point per point.
It's their thing.
And you still have the Basilisk, Manticore, and Deathstrike to do that with. You do not need 27 more variants.
And, unless this new wyvern is as good as GW's description would lead us to believe or they drastically reduced the price of russes (unlikely), then guard will continue to be a middle-of-pack shooting army after the new codex drops, just like they are now.
Because monstrous creatures and fliers really care about large blast weapons...
Also, the Guard by definition should have more and superior artillery than everyone else combined much as how their tanks should beat everyone elses point per point.
It's their thing.
And you still have the Basilisk, Manticore, and Deathstrike to do that with. You do not need 27 more variants.
Yes. Yes we do. Shoot, we have 7 types of models that represent the exact same type of infantry on the battlefield, we need 27 varients of everything.
Also, the Guard by definition should have more and superior artillery than everyone else combined much as how their tanks should beat everyone elses point per point.
It's their thing.
And you still have the Basilisk, Manticore, and Deathstrike to do that with. You do not need 27 more variants.
Except they do different things, which you clearly do not understand. Allow me to enlighten you.
The Basilisk is a super-long range, indirect fire high S AP3 platform, more suited to Apocalypse than anything else, the Manticore is an area saturation weapon and building smasher. the Deathstrike is useless . The Griffon was accurate anti-light infantry firepower, the Colossus was anti-entrenched MEQ, and the medusa was anti-bastion/anti-tank.
Each of these units served a distinct role with different specialties. None of the one cut were overpowered, they just didn't have mainline GW plastic kits.
Wilytank wrote: OP: by your list, it looks like the goods already outweigh the bads.
Nobody uses most of those characters anyway. Marbo is a gimmick in an otherwise thoughtful and tactical army. He doesn't need to exist. And you have enough toys as it is that losing some of those other artillery pieces isn't going to matter.
Either I'm all alone and play with gakky armies, or you're bad and need to feel bad.
The IG characters were one of the things that turned me on to the Guard. The concept of WW2 style tanks and infantry seemed fairly mundane. But the special characters and leaders really interested me- commandos, brilliant generals, fearless warlords, etc. I loved the idea of the average grunts being led by Ubermen, hosting a wide range of special abilities and leading their soldiers into battle with tactically brilliant maneuvers. Marbo in particular is my favorite character in 40k- he embodies all the best cliches of an old action hero, and is totally and completely unique in the 40k world.
A non-tactical gimmick, too? Having abilities like special orders, infiltration, heavier weapons and the like were the whole point of the characters. As opposed to being gimmicky I think these characters made all-infantry forces more interesting and tactical, not less. It's not very tactical to just mush a big pile of grunts forward- but it is tactical to have a commando stalking through the bushes, trying to choose the best time and place for him to reveal himself and assault the enemy.
However, not all is lost. I personally think they might be adding new heroes to the Guard that hasn't been revealed to us yet. Or maybe a later expansion or dataslate with even more characters than before.
Mysterious Pants wrote: However, not all is lost. I personally think they might be adding new heroes to the Guard that hasn't been revealed to us yet. Or maybe a later expansion or dataslate with even more characters than before.
Yeah I heard that one before. It was in September 2013 and went something along the lines of "...I'm sure Black Templars will get their own supplement soon instead of GW completely retconning them to vanilla chapter status."
If I am not mistaken every army has only got 1 supplement so far, with some popular armies getting more.
Tau - Farsight Enclaves
Eldar - Iyanden
CSM - Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter
SM - Sentinels of Terra, Clan Raukaan, LotD IG - Militarum Tempestus
I'm not really a fan of special characters personally. I always feel a bit dirty about using them for some reason, like they're a bit cheesy, so I wouldnt be fussed if they took them all out.
By the sound of it the units I don't plan on using much (if at all) got nerfed or cut so I'm not really affected by those so I feel quite positive. I'm quite looking forward to rejigging my army in fact and the new warlord traits and orders interest me most of all.
Also, the Guard by definition should have more and superior artillery than everyone else combined much as how their tanks should beat everyone elses point per point.
It's their thing.
And you still have the Basilisk, Manticore, and Deathstrike to do that with. You do not need 27 more variants.
Except they do different things, which you clearly do not understand. Allow me to enlighten you.
The Basilisk is a super-long range, indirect fire high S AP3 platform, more suited to Apocalypse than anything else, the Manticore is an area saturation weapon and building smasher. the Deathstrike is useless . The Griffon was accurate anti-light infantry firepower, the Colossus was anti-entrenched MEQ, and the medusa was anti-bastion/anti-tank.
Each of these units served a distinct role with different specialties. None of the one cut were overpowered, they just didn't have mainline GW plastic kits.
The Colossus even had "ignores cover, wounds MEQs on 2s and feth your 3+ save" before it was cool.
A non-tactical gimmick, too? Having abilities like special orders, infiltration, heavier weapons and the like were the whole point of the characters. As opposed to being gimmicky I think these characters made all-infantry forces more interesting and tactical, not less. It's not very tactical to just mush a big pile of grunts forward- but it is tactical to have a commando stalking through the bushes, trying to choose the best time and place for him to reveal himself and assault the enemy.
I still fail to see how "I'm going to throw this one cheap model on the board and have him throw a giant bomb at my opponent!" isn't a gimmick. The Doom of Malan'Tai had the exact same idea.
A non-tactical gimmick, too? Having abilities like special orders, infiltration, heavier weapons and the like were the whole point of the characters. As opposed to being gimmicky I think these characters made all-infantry forces more interesting and tactical, not less. It's not very tactical to just mush a big pile of grunts forward- but it is tactical to have a commando stalking through the bushes, trying to choose the best time and place for him to reveal himself and assault the enemy.
I still fail to see how "I'm going to throw this one cheap model on the board and have him throw a giant bomb at my opponent!" isn't a gimmick. The Doom of Malan'Tai had the exact same idea.
Cheap models and big booms is what the guard is all about.
Wilytank wrote: I still fail to see how "I'm going to throw this one cheap model on the board and have him throw a giant bomb at my opponent!" isn't a gimmick. The Doom of Malan'Tai had the exact same idea.
Marbo was (god-rest-his-fictional-soul) a very tactical choice. With Marbo it was all about placement. You needed to have Marbo arrive in a place where you wouldn't accidentally snowball your own units, and where you could hit important enemy units.
Marbo was also a fairly amazing killer, but kind of squishy: the best tactical use of Marbo would be to put him somewhere where the blast hits your enemies best units, but he's shielded from direct reprisal so that he can engage in combat and distract the enemy for a round or two. It takes great tactical use to be able to put Marbo somewhere where he isn't instantly gunned down after throwing the pie plate, but it should be usually possible.
No, I wouldn't really miss marbo. He was just there for the yukks.
Al'Rahem and Chenkov both unlocked very different playstyles for guard. It would be vaguely almost paramount to removing bike officers from the SM codex so that you couldn't run all-bike lists anymore.
Marbo, Mogul and Pask were just beatsticks (so to speak), but all of the other ones made a change to the way you played your guard army outside of just the special character himself.
Plus, it's not like they're getting rid of special characters. The other codices all have at least a half dozen apiece. Guard will have a bunch as well.
Ailaros wrote: I'm a guard player. That means keeping up the guard rules as they change over time. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player. I'd be a person who plays a guard-like army with old rules.
Like the rules or don't like them, I'm still going to be buying ....
Sparkadia wrote: I'll wait until it comes down in pri- Oh I couldn't keep a straight face for that one.
I can. I was going to pre-order it, but then I thought "why do that when I can just buy it on ebay after release for much cheaper?" Especially because I'd have to add onto my order to get free shipping from GW.
Al'Rahem and Chenkov both unlocked very different playstyles for guard. It would be vaguely almost paramount to removing bike officers from the SM codex so that you couldn't run all-bike lists anymore.
Wouldn't bother me, at least DA would finally have their niche's back.
Sly Marbo isn't left out of the codex. He has just chosen to go back hiding in the shadows (Sly Marbo doesn't hide in the shadows, it is the light that hides from Sly Marbo!), stalking you.
Man I played guard instead of any other army for Al'Rahem, plus the loss of artilery(guards icons all gone), and I dont want a remake of Marbo and Rahem I WANT MY GOD DAMN ARMY BACK! (im aware these are rumors but still)
It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.
It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.
Spoiler:
(Bonus points to whomever 'shops that to be the new IG book)
Agent_Tremolo wrote: It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.
It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.
That doesn't mean they won't be missed. The fact they cut anything at all is lamentable, and moronic.
Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!
Why?
I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?
zoat wrote: Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!
Why?
I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?
Errrr........the same as you've been doing up until now?
Al'Rahem and Chenkov both unlocked very different playstyles for guard. It would be vaguely almost paramount to removing bike officers from the SM codex so that you couldn't run all-bike lists anymore.
Wouldn't bother me, at least DA would finally have their niche's back.
Yeah I'm hoping the rumours are wrong because I loved Chenkov. Still, I can probably forgive it if I get 3pt Conscripts to work with...
Agent_Tremolo wrote: It's amazing. I play against guard quite often and have never seen a Colossus or a Medusa on the tables, not to mention Bastonne, Al-Rahem or Chenkov. I know the mortars were rather good on paper (the colossus was/is a D weapon in all but name) and the characters brought some color and theme to certain lists, but none were central to the army.
It's not mycetic spores you've lost, after all.
Yeah pretty much. Options are nice, but it's not heartbreaking or army-nullifying... unlike mycetic spores.
Yeah I hear ya and I agree that does suck. Thankfully I already have a copy for my super heavies, could you not photocopy the relivant pages from a friend?
zoat wrote: Like it or not I'm getting the book. In fact I already ordered it!
Why?
I spend far too much time on the hobby aspect of 40k. If I don't get the book, what am I to do with all the guard models I have collected and painted over the years?
Errrr........the same as you've been doing up until now?
As dust collectors you mean?
In the long run people are likely to respond badly to insisting on bringing lists from a codex that is actually obsolete. I am a guard player, so for me it was never a question of if, just when.
Yeah I hear ya and I agree that does suck. Thankfully I already have a copy for my super heavies, could you not photocopy the relivant pages from a friend?
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
CSM? You mean, like, CSMCSM or Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes CSM?
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
And then you look at event results, especially the Adepticon results, and wonder why they may feel that way
There's some notable problems with each of those books. CSM's are built around a gameplay style more suited to previous editions and have lots of gak mechanics lazily copy-pasted from Fantasy and largely failed to address the complaints of the previous codex, Tyranids are very mono-build oriented in practice and still have lots of "naff" units. DA's essentially got to be "Codex: Space Marines Alpha Test" and their new "unique" units are absurdly fragile. Then we get books like the Tau codex which is exquisitely built to the 6E ruleset and did a very good job of largely making *almost* everything in the codex useful.
I'm not saying each book should be "zomgwtfpowerBOOM", but usually they should get better than the previous incarnation, if nothing else than in edition compatibility and addressing units which do not function effectively, which is not necessarily the case by any means unfortunately. IG look like they'll still retain many of the problems of the previous codex, ineffective RR's and Ogryn, heavy reliance on Vets, etc.
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
You sure DA players got shafted? I think they came off very well compared to their 4th ed codex. Dakka Banners, 3 deathwing vehicle LRCs profiting from said banners, powerfield libbies, twin-linking turn 1 precision deep striking deathwing terminators, plasma gunthingy raven wing bikers, AV14 land speeders...
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ClockworkZion wrote: I think the real issues isn't that Guard is being screwed by that Tau and Eldar are too good.
I think they're on the same power level as Space Marines.
The only reason things are broken are battlebrother rules, but thats a general fault of 6th.
1) Vendetta price hike. It was obviously necessary, but right now it is 10 points too much, IMO. But given their spam in the meta, I'm not too peeved about this and can live with it.
2) Chimeras going up in price. I agree that after the Wave Serpent, Chimeras really were one of the most dakka laden dedicated transports in the game, so spamming them (even in 6th ed's hullpoint era) wasnt a bad decision, but was a 10 point increase really necessary? ESPECIALLY when the Inquisition codex still lists them at their original points cost? GW just doesnt seem to be able to make their mind up even within the same edition it seems.
3) Veteran points cost reduction by 10 points, but them only being able to carry 2 special weapons now. Not really a dealbreaker, given how everyone was spamming SW Vets, now they are an option instead of a mandatory must have.
The ugly:
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
4) Bastonne is gone
5) Harker has been nerfed to kingdom come - costs the same, confers relentless to entire veteran squad now (so you can assault after firing those plasma guns I guess? or move and shoot with that 1 heavy weapon which is pretty much the only useful thing here, especially if they're aboard a chimera), and his heavy bolter got rending, but lost his own feel no pain (no biggie), as well as his ability to grant veterans infiltrate, move through cover and stealth (dangit! I LIKED infiltrating one of my veteran squads (preferably the 3 melta one) and also giving them cloaks so they could start the game with 2+ cover (thanks to stealth + cloaks) close to enemy tanks and fry them, with Harker's HB providing anti-infantry support along with the rest of the BS4 lasguns, now this tactic is down the drain)
6) Sly Marbo is gone
7) The Griffon is gone
8) The awesome Colossus is gone
9) The Medusa is gone
10) The Penal Legion is gone
11) The Hydra nerf. Like, seriously. Going from an original 4 twin-linked S7 AP4 shots solid infantry hunter with ignores cover on skimmers moving fast and turboboosting bikes (making it an excellent light vehicle hunter) to being 6th ed FAQ'd to have skyfire (goodbye infantry hunter, but hello flyers) and ignores jink to just 4 tl-S7 AP4 skyfire for a mere 5 points reduction is hard to digest.
12) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into a complete mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable and now also only LD8 instead of LD9 for the same points cost.
13) Ogryns didnt get fixed - the lost furious charge for HoW, they lost stubborn (but you can attach commissars and the like to them now without penalty) and they lost their frag grenades so what little use they had as an assault unit is now gone. They gained krak nades, but I see little use for these.
14) Rough Riders barely got fixed (in that the hunting lance now gives +1 attack for laspistol) but did go up by 1 point (11 points now) and in 6th's meta are still too fragile to ever be worth taking (in comparison, look at the ridiculous points reduction bikes and assault marines received in the marine dexes)
15) points cost increase for plasma pistol and power weapons on BS3 / S3 characters from 10 to 15. really, GW?
16) We did not get the Baneblade as a super heavy even though Imperial Knights as super heavy walkers with D strength weapons are out and about.
17) The Taurox. An absolute disappointment. 11/10/10 seriously? That makes it more fragile than a Rhino!!!! And its costlier than a Rhino, to boot.
...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this? Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now. Next codex we could remove the Whirlwind for SM players and see how they react.
Just briefly, I like your "not everything is fethed" attitude
your neutrals - Vendetta nerf is for me positive. Chimera...well, neutral, but I like your analysisVets can still take 3 SW, you just need to drop heavy flamer from squad.
your cons
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - I miss those, but didnt see them played. Like really, even the good ones (=not completely useless like Bastonne)...but still, I miss them for the fluff reasons.
6 - He will return. Im sure of it. He must. HE MUST! He is just waiting.
7, 8, 9 - They are in IA books. For me its solid as codex. And to peopla I play with too. DKoK, Elysians...simply a lot of funny stuff to play, I dont bleed here and I hope wise TO wont cut it.
10 - No tears shed. Like, seriously, even Rough Rides has its (wobbly) role, but penal legion were simply unit for nothing. Not conscripts, not footsloggers, nothing.
11 - Heck, I missed the part about no more anti-jink. Are you sure? It would meant there is no need for Hydra, because I can take better counter-flyer combinations.
12 - New Psykers seems great to me.
13 - Ogryns became walking Aegis. Really, the unit is completely redone. IMO still too expensive, but their shield strategy is far from "didnt get fixed". And Nork Deddog can HEADBUTT! 14 - Yeah, still same "meh". Will play them sometimes for fun...when I make my Rouh Riders from Wellingtons hussars... 15 - IMO OK. Im not happy, but with cheaper Vets, Stormies, commisars and doctrines for vets its acceptable. Still, I wont pay 25 pts for Power Fist.
16 - Decision not to involve (probably) LoW into book is...for me strange. But, whatever, Escalation and IA here...still, its is strange.
17 - Taurox will rock, hear my word. I like him already, especially the Prime. He is fast, front armor is just point lower than chimera and he bring hell of firepower. For me its way to make quick strike from reserves, drop scions and make thrust forward. I think that soon Tauroxes will be used a lot...probably in some spam strategy, unfortunately :(
Sir Arun wrote:You sure DA players got shafted? I think they came off very well compared to their 4th ed codex. Dakka Banners, 3 deathwing vehicle LRCs profiting from said banners, powerfield libbies, twin-linking turn 1 precision deep striking deathwing terminators, plasma gunthingy raven wing bikers, AV14 land speeders...
That's sort of my point. Everyone seems to get angry when their codex comes out and isn't overpowered. I know DA players that complained blue in the face because after all those many years waiting, GW would dare produce a codex that blah, blah, blah.
Just as you're pointing out how DA isn't that bad, no matter what the whiners say, you could make the same argument that AM won't be that bad, no matter what the whiners say.
AtoMaki wrote:CSM? You mean, like, CSMCSM or Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes CSM?
... Because this is what the other side looks like. Are you really saying that CSM is an overpowered codex?
A codex can't both be overpowered and underpowered at the same time.
Or should we have a whine-off to see who's right?
ClockworkZion wrote:I think the real issues isn't that Guard is being screwed by that Tau and Eldar are too good.
Certainly, but that doesn't mean guard should have an overpowered codex. The problem with overpowered codices is overpowered codices, not everyone else who is balanced among themselves.
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
I agree that there is still way too much whining about those codexes.
But now imagine a CSM codex without any named characters, no demon engines, no new toys except an option that lets termies carry shotguns, and any mention of Slaanesh or any units/legion that serves her/m are not present.
THATS what's pissing me off about this book. I could write this myself by taking my old codex and ripping out every other unit, then arbitrarily changing values.
The only problem I have with the new codex is the removal of the extra artillery tanks and the named characters. I recently bought the Armageddon pattern Medusa from Forgeworld and I'm kind of upset I'll never get to use it. I liked the characters because they added a kind of specialty to your force. I hope there are at least some doctrines or something that will allow outflanking infantry platoons or send in the next wave. That aside, I'm very excited for the new orders!
I didn't use any of the models which got removed and I suspect that most IG players didn't either. It sucks for the people who did use them, but I'm fairly sure that they are a minority.
All the removed vehicles can be used with the old codex rules, because they have identical rules in Imperial Armour. I really don't think that many people are going to insist that you buy a FW book to get exact duplicates of rules you already have. Tournament players and people playing in GW stores might have some issues, I guess.
The vendetta price hike was entirely expected and mostly fair. It might have gone a little too far, but only a little. So long as prices are within 10% of what I think is balanced, I don't see much reason to complain.
Tanks generally got better, conscripts got much better, veterans (except chimera-riding SW spam vets) got a bit better, infantry squads seem to be the same but got a 'stealth buff' from better orders, more psykers and priests. Scions are a little better than Stormtroopers, although still underwhelming. Psyker squads aren't great, but a basic block of five is an OK method of getting a divination roll.
Chimeras got a price hike, but it's somewhat compensated for by cheaper vehicle upgrades. Lasgun ports instead of fire points is a mixed bag, but mostly bad.
Characters got a lot better, especially priests. Divination psykers buffing tank squadrons or seems like it will be the new power-build. Infantry become more support units, protecting the psykers and techpriests and moving up to claim objectives after they have been cleared by tanks.
I don't need to buy many more models for my army; the main changes are that characters now play a more important role, but I already had a bunch of psykers for my PBS who can become Primaris Psykers. I think that I will need to acquire some tech-priests, but probably not GW models.
The GW kits which I might actually buy are the Bullgryns and the Scions and the latter only really appeal because of the quality of the sculpts. They are more likely to be conversion-fodder or counts-as-something-else than fielded as scions.
FantomAntichrist wrote: The only problem I have with the new codex is the removal of the extra artillery tanks and the named characters. I recently bought the Armageddon pattern Medusa from Forgeworld and I'm kind of upset I'll never get to use it.
Use the IA1 rules, and punch your opponent in the face and tell them to stop being TFG if they whine and cry about how FW rules aren't "real 40k". Taking them out of the codex was an incredibly stupid decision, but the only people who will refuse to play against them are the TFGs that you don't want to have anything to do with anyway.
FantomAntichrist wrote: The only problem I have with the new codex is the removal of the extra artillery tanks and the named characters. I recently bought the Armageddon pattern Medusa from Forgeworld and I'm kind of upset I'll never get to use it.
Use the IA1 rules, and punch your opponent in the face and tell them to stop being TFG if they whine and cry about how FW rules aren't "real 40k". Taking them out of the codex was an incredibly stupid decision, but the only people who will refuse to play against them are the TFGs that you don't want to have anything to do with anyway.
Yeah and If I did that , the next closest place to play would be 300km+ away. in another country.
the buffs don't seem to be that good. platoons are the same as they were , vets got worse , we technicly got divination casters , but with INQ can cast the same divination and have a higher Ld and cost less and can have nice upgrades like servo skulls or psycannons.
Tanks got cheaper , or some did , but the points drop doesn't cover the price hike on chimeras and vendettas , so stuff will have to be droped from lists. Chimeras without the fire points with higher cost are sad transports and unlike other armies we can't just run something else. We don't have jetbikes and our flying transport went up in cost too.
If this was the first book in 6th ed , I would probably find it ok . But after demons , tau and eldar setting up the bar for normal codex , this just isn't enough.
DLC to get basic utility unit like marbo , is going to hurt people who can't buy them .
The only thing I am really caring about at this point are a few things:
-Doctrines .
-Plastic Steel Legion
If these do not happen I will not ever be running IG out of this book as they are the only thing I am looking for at the moment for an army, Codex Militarium Tempestus covered the Deep Striking Elite Infantry for me in regards to my second 2000pt. installation for my Elysians, but I this new book can do it better I will utilize this.
Any change or return of lumbering behemoth or are ordnance russes still terrible?
Also, Gets Hot! on the executioner is painful, more likely to kill itself. Losing the colossus is the worst though, that unit was incredibly useful in 6th for blasting cover hugging armies.
Losing options of any kind is bad, the special characters might not have been everyone's cup of tea but they were there for you to use, and had models that now are useless.
Not all doom and gloom though, I like tank commanders, like the scions and the taurox and wyvern are kinda cool.
Makumba wrote: ...we technicly got divination casters , but with INQ can cast the same divination and have a higher Ld and cost less and can have nice upgrades like servo skulls or psycannons.
75 points for a ML 2 Primaris Psyker is more points-efficient than 55 points for a ML 1 Inquisitor, plus you are no longer limited to two rolls on the divination table.
FantomAntichrist wrote: The only problem I have with the new codex is the removal of the extra artillery tanks and the named characters. I recently bought the Armageddon pattern Medusa from Forgeworld and I'm kind of upset I'll never get to use it.
Use the IA1 rules, and punch your opponent in the face and tell them to stop being TFG if they whine and cry about how FW rules aren't "real 40k". Taking them out of the codex was an incredibly stupid decision, but the only people who will refuse to play against them are the TFGs that you don't want to have anything to do with anyway.
If you punch someone in the face and/or jump up and down complaining about how the other kids won't let you use your toys, you are TFG. Also, if you use the term TFG, you might just be TFG... oh dammit.
besides, if nids get 3 data slates, how much you wanna bet guard get at LEAST that?
this new content model makes it really EASY for GW to add in catachans/tallarn/valhalla/ect through data slates over time. It also makes it profitable for them to do it, so I really do see them coming out with a few soon, and more as years go by.
definate buy o this codex... so much more to play with now then "spam max # of chimeras behind aegis, dettas and manticore)
now we can do massive troop waves, and have them be really effective with orders and buff characters, we can do mech guard with all tanks, and mech inf is still good, its just not top dog any more.
and as I ahve been saying for a long time, I knew IG would be the solution to WS spam, and it definately is. meta is going to be changed a lot in the next month or two
Sir Arun wrote: 18) No Solar Macharius, Gaunt or Schaeffer. We waited 5 years and still they aren't bothered to write them in. Imma slap anyone who brings up the word dataslate as retaliation.
Oh, please. I'm not going to bring up the word "dataslate", because it will never happen. The Cypher miniature is old but has a pass, the Macharius miniature is just beyond redemption. I seriously doubt anyone would shell out 8€ to field a mediocre character who looks like the Michelin mascot in drag, as imagined by the costume design team of a cheapo 1970s italian space opera
Having read through the full Tempestus book (not yet the full Astra Militarum book), I have to say, it's probably the worst instance of GW fluff writing I've ever encountered. I think it might actually be worse than the Space Wolves.
Between all the really bad Faux-Latin hamfisted in at every opportunity reading like a Harry Potter fanfic, and the over the top attempts to make the book Grimdark that just come off as the writing equivalent of torture-porn movies, the book is not only actually difficult to actually read (on a purely mechanical level), but not entertaining at all.
Vaktathi wrote: Having read through the full Tempestus book (not yet the full Astra Militarum book), I have to say, it's probably the worst instance of GW fluff writing I've ever encountered. I think it might actually be worse than the Space Wolves.
Between all the really bad Faux-Latin hamfisted in at every opportunity reading like a Harry Potter fanfic, and the over the top attempts to make the book Grimdark that just come off as the writing equivalent of torture-porn movies, the book is not only actually difficult to actually read (on a purely mechanical level), but not entertaining at all.
I hate to break it to you, but the setting has always been full of fake Latin mixed with real Latin all over the place. And Grimdark in 40k as always been pretty darn cartoony (go read an old Guard codex about how many die in battle. Heck a Guardsman has a life expectancy of 15 minutes once the fighting starts).
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Hollismason wrote: I foresee a lot of abuses if Psykers can just be put in any squad or a Battle Brother squad from an allied codex. Especially with Imperial Knights.
The Psykers were already pretty abusable before this book. But they're VERY squishy and don't come with a high mastery level so most people prefer better options. Plus their leadership isn't that great when compared to options like Eldrad.
I was thinking more in lines what a max unit of Centurions with a Psyker casting prescience on them a Priest to make it so they reroll wounds would do. That's not even really that much additional points.
Several points in the OP are irrelevant based on your review. Ogryns are still in a rough spot, though the Bullgryns might be ok for bubblewrap around tanks.
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Hollismason wrote: I was thinking more in lines what a max unit of Centurions with a Psyker casting prescience on them a Priest to make it so they reroll wounds would do. That's not even really that much additional points.
Though the optimal weapons for Centurions already allow re-rolls to wound. Really its for prescience or misfortune.
Hollismason wrote:I was thinking more in lines what a max unit of Centurions with a Psyker casting prescience on them a Priest to make it so they reroll wounds would do. That's not even really that much additional points.
Several points in the OP are irrelevant based on your review. Ogryns are still in a rough spot, though the Bullgryns might be ok for bubblewrap around tanks.
Hollismason wrote: The Psyker Battle Squads get access to Biomancy, how does that work with Psychic Brotherhood, I'm not familiar with Psyhics.
SInce the whole unit counts as being the psyker, the powers affecting the psyker are resolved over the entire unit, IIR-Brotherhood of Psykers-C. Haven't used BoP much so I will double check
Hollismason wrote:I was thinking more in lines what a max unit of Centurions with a Psyker casting prescience on them a Priest to make it so they reroll wounds would do. That's not even really that much additional points.
Several points in the OP are irrelevant based on your review. Ogryns are still in a rough spot, though the Bullgryns might be ok for bubblewrap around tanks.
Tanks with Camo Nets.
And the Deathstrike might not be too bad after all, a 4+ isn't that hard, especially with aforementioned camo-netting w/ Bullgryns providing cover.
Hollismason wrote: The Psyker Battle Squads get access to Biomancy, how does that work with Psychic Brotherhood, I'm not familiar with Psyhics.
SInce the whole unit counts as being the psyker, the powers affecting the psyker are resolved over the entire unit, IIR-Brotherhood of Psykers-C. Haven't used BoP much so I will double check
Hollismason wrote:I was thinking more in lines what a max unit of Centurions with a Psyker casting prescience on them a Priest to make it so they reroll wounds would do. That's not even really that much additional points.
Several points in the OP are irrelevant based on your review. Ogryns are still in a rough spot, though the Bullgryns might be ok for bubblewrap around tanks.
Tanks with Camo Nets.
And the Deathstrike might not be too bad after all, a 4+ isn't that hard, especially with aforementioned camo-netting w/ Bullgryns providing cover.
Vaktathi wrote: Having read through the full Tempestus book (not yet the full Astra Militarum book), I have to say, it's probably the worst instance of GW fluff writing I've ever encountered. I think it might actually be worse than the Space Wolves.
Between all the really bad Faux-Latin hamfisted in at every opportunity reading like a Harry Potter fanfic, and the over the top attempts to make the book Grimdark that just come off as the writing equivalent of torture-porn movies, the book is not only actually difficult to actually read (on a purely mechanical level), but not entertaining at all.
I hate to break it to you, but the setting has always been full of fake Latin mixed with real Latin all over the place. And Grimdark in 40k as always been pretty darn cartoony (go read an old Guard codex about how many die in battle. Heck a Guardsman has a life expectancy of 15 minutes once the fighting starts).
Right, the faux-latin has always been in there, but not spammed to the extent it is in this book. Just about every noun is replaced with Gibberish-Latin. It was affected by the concept described here in the extreme. And again, yes, 40k has often been dark-cartoony, and I think I'm one to normally appreciate most of that. But this was just awful. The actual writing itself was terrible and the stories were just really poorly delivered.
It felt like it was trying way too hard to be something that it couldn't quite attain, written by someone who doesn't have any writing skill.
Also, most of it could have been straight copy-pasted out of a Marine book, if you just left out the part about the Scions being part of the IG, then one would probably assume they were talking about an SM chapter much of the time.
Ah so not as initially useful as I'd thought but still Imperial Knights out of everything gained a pretty huge boost depending on what powers you can get or give them.
In terms of content, it's just as bad as much of his stuff, and I think in terms of just the mechanics of the actual writing itself, it might actually be worse
And this is for an army I've been wanting to see ever since starting 40k
Hollismason wrote: Everything I've read on it seems " meh". A couple of good buffs in places but then some nerfs in others. No better or No worse than the last one.
A LOT of points drops across the board. Very few upticks in points and they're mostly on things that deserved it, or needed it with how the rules now work.
Hollismason wrote: Everything I've read on it seems " meh". A couple of good buffs in places but then some nerfs in others. No better or No worse than the last one.
A LOT of points drops across the board. Very few upticks in points and they're mostly on things that deserved it, or needed it with how the rules now work.
To be fair, a lot of those things that got price drops also lost capabilities and in some cases, despite the cost decrease, were painfully nerfed (e.g. Hydra now open topped and lost its signature special rule for a 5pt drop) while others still struggle to really be what they should (Scions are cheaper than the older ST's but don't have as many cool special rules and still have some of the same problems).
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
Everyone needs to be as good as Tau/Eldar. That's what would bring balance.
I gave you how many points something shifted by (if at all) compared to the current codex, so just look at that and do the basic math. I'm not posting points values and potentially putting myself in hot water.
Sir Arun wrote: [also, is it true that ogryns did not lose stubborn or their frag grenades, but did not gain krak grenades?
Correct, but very few models come standard with Krak Grenades.
Sir Arun wrote: [And according to that site, Scions are Troops choices now but need a Scion Command Squad, is that correct?
You didn't read a single thing I wrote in that whole article did you? Scions are clearly an Elite choice.
Sir Arun wrote: Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now.
How is this different than any other codex that's come out recently that wasn't overpowered?
Tyranid got a new codex that wasn't OP, which means that tyranid players got shafted, and CSM and DA got new codices that weren't overpowered, and they got shafted. It's like people want a well-balanced game so long as their own codex gets stronger every time...
Everyone needs to be as good as Tau/Eldar. That's what would bring balance.
Tau/Eldar just need a good beating with a NERF bat.
ClockworkZion wrote: You didn't read a single thing I wrote in that whole article did you? Scions are clearly an Elite choice.
I read exactly what you wrote. Here, let me spell it out for you:
"Militarum Tempestus Platoon:
Consists of 1 Militarum Command Squad, 1-3 Militarum Tempestus Scions. Each Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the FOC.".
Yes you have put it in the Elites section, but with a wording like that you are only confusing your readers. The "consists of 1 Militarum Command Squad" also makes it appear that in order to field 1 Militarum Tepestus Scion squad, you'd need to field 1 MT Command squad first. Time for an edit, I think.
ClockworkZion wrote: You didn't read a single thing I wrote in that whole article did you? Scions are clearly an Elite choice.
I read exactly what you wrote. Here, let me spell it out for you:
"Militarum Tempestus Platoon:
Consists of 1 Militarum Command Squad, 1-3 Militarum Tempestus Scions. Each Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the FOC.".
Yes you have put it in the Elites section, but with a wording like that you are only confusing your readers. The "consists of 1 Militarum Command Squad" also makes it appear that in order to field 1 Militarum Tepestus Scion squad, you'd need to field 1 MT Command squad first. Time for an edit, I think.
Same goes for your Armored Sentinel...
says 15 points.
not +15
See, you could have pointed that out instead of instead using questions that make it sound like you're just lazily fishing for information.
So is the Tempestus Command Squad still required for you to be able to field 1 Scion squad in the Elites section?
And 2), is the Armored sentinel +15 points over the old Armored Sentinel points cost or +15 points over the old Scout Sentinel points cost?
Because if it is the former, then it got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard.
And lastly, could you give some vague information about the fluff section? How many pages is it? And is it a copy-paste job of the old codex' fluff? And is the Bestiarum section (unit descriptions) also very much a copy-paste job?
So is the Tempestus Command Squad still required for you to be able to field 1 Scion squad in the Elites section?
No that was a mistake and is fixed (B&C caught that one actually). This is what happens when you rush kids.
Sir Arun wrote: [And 2), is the Armored sentinel +15 points over the old Armored Sentinel points cost or +15 points over the old Scout Sentinel points cost?
Because if it is the former, then it got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard.
I apologize, I forgot to double check before putting a sign in there. It went DOWN 15 points.
Sir Arun wrote: And lastly, could you give some vague information about the fluff section? How many pages is it? And is it a copy-paste job of the old codex' fluff? And is the Bestiarum section (unit descriptions) also very much a copy-paste job?
About 20 pages, with a decent bulk of images. Not counting the Bestiarum fluff that is. I don't have a good grasp on how much is a C&P job because that'd require me checking basically page by page. I never memorized the entire Guard codex (mostly because Cruddace's writing has a nasty habit of putting me to sleep).
Sir Arun wrote: Updated 1st post. The good is starting to outweigh the bad, I might actually buy the codex now.
My only rage right now is with Harker, the PBS nerf, and the lack of improvement for Ogryns and Rough Riders.
What's wrong with Harker? PBS got a slight survivability buff through Brotherhood of Psykers, and Ogryns got small synergy based buffs in that they can allow things like Priests to join with them, and aren't forced to not be able to ride in vehicles once they disembark.
Sir Arun wrote: Updated 1st post. The good is starting to outweigh the bad, I might actually buy the codex now.
My only rage right now is with Harker, the PBS nerf, and the lack of improvement for Ogryns and Rough Riders.
What's wrong with Harker? PBS got a slight survivability buff through Brotherhood of Psykers, and Ogryns got small synergy based buffs in that they can allow things like Priests to join with them, and aren't forced to not be able to ride in vehicles once they disembark.
Apparently Harker lost a bunch of special rules from the last edition. No idea what they were.
Sir Arun wrote: Updated 1st post. The good is starting to outweigh the bad, I might actually buy the codex now.
My only rage right now is with Harker, the PBS nerf, and the lack of improvement for Ogryns and Rough Riders.
What's wrong with Harker? PBS got a slight survivability buff through Brotherhood of Psykers, and Ogryns got small synergy based buffs in that they can allow things like Priests to join with them, and aren't forced to not be able to ride in vehicles once they disembark.
Apparently Harker lost a bunch of special rules from the last edition. No idea what they were.
Harker lost his Catachan Devils rule which gave the squad Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and I believe Stealth which could stack with the camo cloaks so you could get a 2-3+ cover save in the terrain. He also personally lost his FNP. The only "buff" he got was just flat out giving the whole squad relentless which is okay but not a fair tradeoff in losing all the buffs.
Sir Arun wrote: Updated 1st post. The good is starting to outweigh the bad, I might actually buy the codex now.
My only rage right now is with Harker, the PBS nerf, and the lack of improvement for Ogryns and Rough Riders.
What's wrong with Harker? PBS got a slight survivability buff through Brotherhood of Psykers, and Ogryns got small synergy based buffs in that they can allow things like Priests to join with them, and aren't forced to not be able to ride in vehicles once they disembark.
Apparently Harker lost a bunch of special rules from the last edition. No idea what they were.
Harker lost his Catachan Devils rule which gave the squad Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and I believe Stealth which could stack with the camo cloaks so you could get a 2-3+ cover save in the terrain. He also personally lost his FNP. The only "buff" he got was just flat out giving the whole squad relentless which is okay but not a fair tradeoff in losing all the buffs.
Oh wow, Harker got hosed. Did he receive a price decrease at least? I know he has a rending Heavy Bolter.
Sir Arun wrote: Updated 1st post. The good is starting to outweigh the bad, I might actually buy the codex now.
My only rage right now is with Harker, the PBS nerf, and the lack of improvement for Ogryns and Rough Riders.
What's wrong with Harker?
Harker was a pretty decent IC in the last codex, in that he allowed one of your Veteran squads to infiltrate, gave them move through cover, and also gave them stealth. The restriction was, that you could not upgrade them with the grenadiers doctrine. However, this meant that you could buy forward sentries upgrades and in the old codex, you would then end up with:
An infiltrated veteran unit usually in 2+ cover with defensive grenades to boot.
Now you could give them a Lascannon and 3 Plasmaguns and Harker's Heavy Bolter and see how the MEQ player would try to get rid of this dakka laden squad without using cover-ignoring weapons. It'd be damn hard.
Now that tactic is down the drain and Harker has... err.... exactly 0 uses.
CHENKOV'S GONE?! :(
BASTONNES GONE?! :(
SLY MARBO IS GONE?! :(
I personally haven't seen the new codex but what the OP said it seems to me (IMO) that GW have butchered everything that made the IG, IG.
The fluff was what made the Guardsmen truly amazing and unique in the WH40k universe; simple and ordinary men that are forced to charge against the monstrosities of the 40k universe and if their step faultered there was the Administratorium (I think that's how you spell it?) behind them to ruthlessly dish out pain and send them packing to another galaxy. And the very fact that icons such as the ruthless Chenkov and the giving and willing Bastonne that led these guard that made them SO UNIQUE have been culled from the new edition it makes me sad.
Plus imo some of the new models are meh. They missed the chance to create a truly unique new kit of Guardsmen that you could customize and do whatever the hell you felt like to them that combined so many of the legions of metal together which sucks tbh, because I really was hoping that would happen.
Plus taking out Marbo... IMA KILL THEM! He was my secret weapon and my last resort characters that has done nothing but serve me faithfully in my games (Especially when he butchered a Librarian in CC). To see him go makes me want to strangle them because he was such a unique and defined character within the Guardsmen.
Makumba wrote: ...we technicly got divination casters , but with INQ can cast the same divination and have a higher Ld and cost less and can have nice upgrades like servo skulls or psycannons.
75 points for a ML 2 Primaris Psyker is more points-efficient than 55 points for a ML 1 Inquisitor, plus you are no longer limited to two rolls on the divination table.
Can't agree with that . the inq doesn't get shot , if he perils and gives servo skulls , I don't need to buy a commisar and a primaris psyker to get stubborn for my units. And this just pure buff monkey inq . no grenades , no psycannons , no terminator armor to tank wounds.
Makumba wrote: ...we technicly got divination casters , but with INQ can cast the same divination and have a higher Ld and cost less and can have nice upgrades like servo skulls or psycannons.
75 points for a ML 2 Primaris Psyker is more points-efficient than 55 points for a ML 1 Inquisitor, plus you are no longer limited to two rolls on the divination table.
Can't agree with that . the inq doesn't get shot , if he perils and gives servo skulls , I don't need to buy a commisar and a primaris psyker to get stubborn for my units. And this just pure buff monkey inq . no grenades , no psycannons , no terminator armor to tank wounds.
krazynadechukr wrote: I'm a guard player. That means keeping up the guard rules as they change over time. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player.
Yeah we heard it when Ailaros said it and you quoted it several pages back
If you didn't get the new codex, you could still be a guard player... just not a guard player who plays with the latest rules. One doesn't preclude the other unless your opponents won't let you play with old rules.
Makumba wrote: ...we technicly got divination casters , but with INQ can cast the same divination and have a higher Ld and cost less and can have nice upgrades like servo skulls or psycannons.
75 points for a ML 2 Primaris Psyker is more points-efficient than 55 points for a ML 1 Inquisitor, plus you are no longer limited to two rolls on the divination table.
Can't agree with that . the inq doesn't get shot , if he perils and gives servo skulls , I don't need to buy a commisar and a primaris psyker to get stubborn for my units. And this just pure buff monkey inq . no grenades , no psycannons , no terminator armor to tank wounds.
Why not both?
because all the stuff I use went up in points so much that am thinking about making coteaz my warlord , because I have a 140pts void in my list and I still will have to drop a vet squad .
Losing Al'Rahem, Marbo, Mogul Kamir (I actually use Rough Riders... not well, but I use them) and the Penal Squads was a deal breaker for me. I will not be getting the new codex and will continue to play with my 5th edition codex until something actually better comes along (so...9th edition, then?).
All of the new units/vehicles the IG got seemed to be units nobody was ever asking anyone for. Riot police Ogryns? An open-topped twin-linked mortar tank? A transport that somehow managed to be less durable than a Rhino? Can anyone here honestly say that they ever heard anyone wish the IG had anything like the above units?
Sorry, GW, you will not be getting my money for your sub-par army book and overpriced models. I run a Tallarn Guard army, now... I can buy everything I need off of ebay, and I can get it cheaper there than I can get it from you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
krazynadechukr wrote: I'm a guard player. That means keeping up the guard rules as they change over time. If I didn't get the new codex, I wouldn't be a guard player.
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
So they added something new? Great, they still kept Imperial Guard as their low gothic name, so I fail to see what the issue is here.
Now every group has their own high gothic name, however silly they may be.
Hardly a reason to say you're not a Guard player if you use the new book.
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
I'm not a fan of "AM", but I'm guessing the reason they didn't use "Adept-" is because "Adept-" implies some great skill or ability, where as IG are more of a meat grinder than representative of some great ability.
squidhills wrote: Losing Al'Rahem, Marbo, Mogul Kamir (I actually use Rough Riders... not well, but I use them) and the Penal Squads was a deal breaker for me. I will not be getting the new codex and will continue to play with my 5th edition codex until something actually better comes along (so...9th edition, then?).
All of the new units/vehicles the IG got seemed to be units nobody was ever asking anyone for. Riot police Ogryns? An open-topped twin-linked mortar tank? A transport that somehow managed to be less durable than a Rhino? Can anyone here honestly say that they ever heard anyone wish the IG had anything like the above units?
Ignore amazing orders, tank warlord, flexible HQ boost like priests and cheap psykers (= really important stuff for actual play, like ton of rerolls, ignore cover, precision shot for blobs) was your intention? Because nit-picking you didnt want ogres with shields is, pretty much, missing what makes the codex really good.
Im not saying you should buy it, but maybe you just didnt understand it...
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
While I don't have such a problem with introducing a new high gothic name for the IG, the level of which the faux-gothic gets spammed makes it read like a bad harry potter fanfic.
They say "Imperial Guard" in the codex far more than "Astra Militarum" so it really does not matter in the end.
Focus does seem to be on the units of guys and all the things / HQ's you can add to them and orders to give them a boost (like Sisters and Dark Eldar).
New orders, Psykers with Divination pretty much anyone you can add to a unit look to be the areas of interest.
REALLY confused on coming out with Taurox with 10 man capacity compared to a Chimera plus also you can still issue commands from a Chimera but not a Taurox (??!!). Not giving the new model a fighting chance.
I am not really seeing any "deals" yet in the points but the walkers are looking good to me (I was having alcohol at the time I read, so anything may have looked good).
Now I just have to figure out how to "hide" command squads while remaining close to the troops for commands. Really wish the radios in the squads extended command range.
A Tank commander squad could be fielded so freeing up at least one heavy slot is possible if you are a "tread-head".
Not sure I like the direction we want to "see" the "men" included in the new artillery but you can spend points to make it an enclosed compartment.
All in all: I have Imperial Guard models and the new codex lets me play with them as a "decent" force, not like Eldar or Tau, but I can play some non-White Scar marines and have a good scrap.
GW has succeeded to flog their models but the Taurox looks like marketing and the rules guys had a disconnect.
Just got the codex. I was "one of them suckers" who got the limited edition lol.
Now unlike my bro inlaws limited edition eldar dex the IG one has a lot more extras. Nice material bound hard case, card sleeve with baneblade diagram and material bound book.
I have just typed up a 1000pt list for our upcoming campaign and put in the new points next to the old ones. Most of the stuff is the same, infantry squads the same pts, HQ is a little bit more and only my exterminator has dropped by a lot.
Sniper rifles have gone down so with a bit of tweaking I have managed to get 2 more snipers and a Lascannon instead of a heavy bolter.
One thing that has annoyed me is the order for 'Take aim!'
"Aiming carefully, the officer bids his men steady themselves and recall page one hundred and nine of the Imperial Infantryman's uplifting primer - the Litany of Accuracy"
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
God, I know right. I mean check out the obvious glaring differences in guard models versus astra models! Unbelievable. Just a complete shake up of the entire 40k universe, and even our own private lives. Gw why? (And end scene.)
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
God, I know right. I mean check out the obvious glaring differences in guard models versus astra models! Unbelievable. Just a complete shake up of the entire 40k universe, and even our own private lives. Gw why? (And end scene.)
He wasn't talking about the models or the army itself; only the name. You aren't helping Asta's case here.
I like the new codex, it's all about the grunts and tanks.
I am disappointed in losing the Colossus and Medusa (the Wyvern is a more than acceptable substitute for the Griffon), but the cost reduction for Russes and the whole tank commander thing as an HQ choice. I'll be rocking double preferred enemy punishers for the inevitable Ork hordes coming our way soon.
Love the new command squad, the advisors may not be as good, but they are a lot cheaper. The new orders are great.
I hate the fact that heavy bolters cost 10 points each. Hell, the Tempestus Codex that came out a week prior prices valkyrie sponsons at 10 for the pair, why does IG pay 100% more? And I won't even go into the also relatively recent Inquisition codex that still has the old Valkyrie price. I could maybe buy the fluff argument that IG have to pay more than Stormtroopers for stuff like power weapons and plasma guns due to their scarcity, but heavy bolters? The heavy bolters are just some of the probably unnecessary 5 to 10 point tax hikes in the book, like for Manticores/Vendettas/Chimeras/heavy weapon teams.
Oh well, at least they priced infantry heavy flamers right.
Speaking of power weapons, the increase in price pretty much killed the power blob, but conscripts with priest/commissar/allied inquisitor with hammerhand and rad/psy grenades seem very promising.
Not sold on the new scions, they got cheaper but also lost a lot of their abilities, so at face value they are a wash. The Tempestus side has some very nice orders, but with only one order per command squad, they are highly limited. I think if the squad sgts could issue these orders to their own unit I'd like them a lot more. The Airborne Assault formation is very interesting, and offers most of the old flavor, but is one squad+bird too big to squeeze into most games. 75 points for grenadiers is probably the better choice.
It's disappointing that all the miscellaneous stuff (Ogryns, Rough Riders, Snotlings, Psykers) are all still crap, but for me IG has always been just about boots and big guns, and if I want wonky stuff, I can always bring in Sororitas or Astartes or even Necrons as count-as-Mechanicus.
Overall, the OP's summary is pretty much spot on, and I decided to get the new codex (note I didn't say buy). It has brought me out of 40K retirement, especially since I don't have to pick up anything except maybe a couple of skyshard mortar sprues off ebay.
Ignore amazing orders, tank warlord, flexible HQ boost like priests and cheap psykers (= really important stuff for actual play, like ton of rerolls, ignore cover, precision shot for blobs) was your intention? Because nit-picking you didnt want ogres with shields is, pretty much, missing what makes the codex really good.
Im not saying you should buy it, but maybe you just didnt understand it...
The orders we already have work well enough for my needs, I don't run armored companies (or have enough tanks to even try) my HQ is in the rear with the gear (apart from Al'Rahem and Mogul Kaimr... and Kamir can't get a priest or psyker anyway) so the things that make the codex really good in your eyes do pretty much nothing for me. Units and characters that I based my army around got removed (Penal Squads, Al'Rahem, Marbo, Mogul Kamir), and replaced with things that do not fit my army at all (Bullgryns, Taurox, and um... yeah. Oh, the Wyvern... that was the other one. Well, that one is kinda nice, I'll admit, but doesn't have a place in my army). While the codex may benefit you, it does very little to benefit me, and forces me to completely redesign my army from the ground up. You'll pardon me if I decide to think poorly of this codex, thank you.
Also, no matter how good they made psykers and priests, everyone has to admit that of the all-new units we got this codex (Bullgryn, Taurox and Wyvern) nobody asked for anything like them. At all. That the Wyvern is actually pretty sweet doesn't change the fact that GW gave us stuff nobody wanted, while completely ignoring things we did want (new plastic Catachans, or Tallarns, or Mordians, or Krieg, new Rough Riders, new SC models for older SCs, new elite slot units, etc). There was a satirical IG rumor thread a while back where a bunch of people posted the most insane new rules and units we could think of, and nobody came up with riot police Ogryns or a transport that was crappier than a Rhino, and we were trying to come up with crazy gak.
Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
ClockworkZion wrote: Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
ClockworkZion wrote: Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
ClockworkZion wrote: Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
Ignore amazing orders, tank warlord, flexible HQ boost like priests and cheap psykers (= really important stuff for actual play, like ton of rerolls, ignore cover, precision shot for blobs) was your intention? Because nit-picking you didnt want ogres with shields is, pretty much, missing what makes the codex really good.
Im not saying you should buy it, but maybe you just didnt understand it...
The orders we already have work well enough for my needs, I don't run armored companies (or have enough tanks to even try) my HQ is in the rear with the gear (apart from Al'Rahem and Mogul Kaimr... and Kamir can't get a priest or psyker anyway) so the things that make the codex really good in your eyes do pretty much nothing for me. Units and characters that I based my army around got removed (Penal Squads, Al'Rahem, Marbo, Mogul Kamir), and replaced with things that do not fit my army at all (Bullgryns, Taurox, and um... yeah. Oh, the Wyvern... that was the other one. Well, that one is kinda nice, I'll admit, but doesn't have a place in my army). While the codex may benefit you, it does very little to benefit me, and forces me to completely redesign my army from the ground up. You'll pardon me if I decide to think poorly of this codex, thank you.
Also, no matter how good they made psykers and priests, everyone has to admit that of the all-new units we got this codex (Bullgryn, Taurox and Wyvern) nobody asked for anything like them. At all. That the Wyvern is actually pretty sweet doesn't change the fact that GW gave us stuff nobody wanted, while completely ignoring things we did want (new plastic Catachans, or Tallarns, or Mordians, or Krieg, new Rough Riders, new SC models for older SCs, new elite slot units, etc). There was a satirical IG rumor thread a while back where a bunch of people posted the most insane new rules and units we could think of, and nobody came up with riot police Ogryns or a transport that was crappier than a Rhino, and we were trying to come up with crazy gak.
Yeah, yeah, you dont use orders, old were good (who cares the new one are 200% better) and nobody wanted new units. And we all wanted this and that. Dude, I didnt want plastic Catachans, Mordians etc. Dont speak for me - and honestly, you are not speaking for any IG player I know But yeah, I agree, if you are very niche player who plays Penal Legions with Marbo and Mogul Kamir, have no interest in orgers ignoring cover or making whole unit Precision shots and really need plastic models that have already models...in that case, this codex is big disappointment. I just fear, you are not majority, so none "we all wanted THIS"...well, I wanted new order, I wanted more flexible PCS, I wanted more freedom in forming my HQ
ClockworkZion wrote: Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
If you get the new codex, you won't be a guard player; you will be an Astra Militarum player. Your codex don't say "Imperial Guard" on the front, does it? Mine does, however...
Okay, I understand some people dislike the name change, but its no different than how Sisters of Battle have their 'codex' called Adepta Sororitas. Or how Space Marines is the common name for their true name; Adeptus Astartes.
They're still Imperial Guard. Astra Militarum is their high gothic name, or whatever.
No need to be overly dramatic about a name on a book.
Except that the Marines and the Sisters have always had a High Gothic name, since back in Rogue Trader. The IG hasn't. It's new, and not even in keeping with how GW has styled their other High Gothic names. "Astra Militarum" is crap. ADEPTUS Militarum would be better, and more in keeping with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Minisotrum, etc.
God, I know right. I mean check out the obvious glaring differences in guard models versus astra models! Unbelievable. Just a complete shake up of the entire 40k universe, and even our own private lives. Gw why? (And end scene.)
He wasn't talking about the models or the army itself; only the name. You aren't helping Asta's case here.
I guess my subtle sarcasm (showing identical models and calling one guard and the other astra) to make the point harping on the assinitity of an extra name added to guard, was lost on some.
How is this, "A rose by any other name is still a rose!"
Imperial guard are astra militorum & astra militorum are imperial guard.
Yeah, yeah, you dont use orders, old were good (who cares the new one are 200% better) and nobody wanted new units. And we all wanted this and that. Dude, I didnt want plastic Catachans, Mordians etc. Dont speak for me - and honestly, you are not speaking for any IG player I know But yeah, I agree, if you are very niche player who plays Penal Legions with Marbo and Mogul Kamir, have no interest in orgers ignoring cover or making whole unit Precision shots and really need plastic models that have already models...in that case, this codex is big disappointment. I just fear, you are not majority, so none "we all wanted THIS"...well, I wanted new order, I wanted more flexible PCS, I wanted more freedom in forming my HQ
I never said I don't use orders; I said i don't run armored companies (so Tank HQ does nothing for me). You may nothave wanted plastic catachans, but a lot of IG players (and others, too) have maintained that Catachans badly needed a re-sculpt. With the move away from metal minis, anyone who didn't want to play Cadians wanted to see plastic versions of the older IG armies (and plastic Krieg would be cheaper than FW, too so that got asked for a lot). I'm not pretending to speak for you, but I am speaking for every IG player that I personally know (except the guy who plays Tau Auxiliaries... he's just weird) and am echoing sentiments I've seen often enough on Dakka in the past. And it's great that you wanted new orders and more flexible PCS and freeform HQ, but I still haven't seen you say "I wanted a crappy transport and riot police Ogryns", which was my point. All of the focus on the new orders and priests and whatnot is great, but I don't see anybody who is really excited to see the new units (not new RULES) that we got. Remember the Valkyrie/Vendetta when it first landed? The response was "OMG we get a flyer and it is KEWL! The rules are great and it looks better than the flying land raider the SM got!" The Manticore? "Nine of these babies can table an opponent by turn 4!" The Executioner? "It's not FW anymore!!11!11!!"
This release? The response has been "Well, the Wyvern kills blobs super-dead, but don't we already have Manticores for that?" and "They nerfed the Chimera and made it cost more to sell a transport that is worse than a Chimera rules-wise and ugly, too" along with "Bullgryns? What?"
We not only weren't asking for these units, we aren't excited about them either (by and large... I have seen one or two people express an interest in Bullgryns, but nothing I would call real excitement for them).
Yeah, yeah, you dont use orders, old were good (who cares the new one are 200% better) and nobody wanted new units. And we all wanted this and that. Dude, I didnt want plastic Catachans, Mordians etc. Dont speak for me - and honestly, you are not speaking for any IG player I know But yeah, I agree, if you are very niche player who plays Penal Legions with Marbo and Mogul Kamir, have no interest in orgers ignoring cover or making whole unit Precision shots and really need plastic models that have already models...in that case, this codex is big disappointment. I just fear, you are not majority, so none "we all wanted THIS"...well, I wanted new order, I wanted more flexible PCS, I wanted more freedom in forming my HQ
I never said I don't use orders; I said i don't run armored companies (so Tank HQ does nothing for me). You may nothave wanted plastic catachans, but a lot of IG players (and others, too) have maintained that Catachans badly needed a re-sculpt. With the move away from metal minis, anyone who didn't want to play Cadians wanted to see plastic versions of the older IG armies (and plastic Krieg would be cheaper than FW, too so that got asked for a lot). I'm not pretending to speak for you, but I am speaking for every IG player that I personally know (except the guy who plays Tau Auxiliaries... he's just weird) and am echoing sentiments I've seen often enough on Dakka in the past. And it's great that you wanted new orders and more flexible PCS and freeform HQ, but I still haven't seen you say "I wanted a crappy transport and riot police Ogryns", which was my point. All of the focus on the new orders and priests and whatnot is great, but I don't see anybody who is really excited to see the new units (not new RULES) that we got. Remember the Valkyrie/Vendetta when it first landed? The response was "OMG we get a flyer and it is KEWL! The rules are great and it looks better than the flying land raider the SM got!" The Manticore? "Nine of these babies can table an opponent by turn 4!" The Executioner? "It's not FW anymore!!11!11!!"
This release? The response has been "Well, the Wyvern kills blobs super-dead, but don't we already have Manticores for that?" and "They nerfed the Chimera and made it cost more to sell a transport that is worse than a Chimera rules-wise and ugly, too" along with "Bullgryns? What?"
We not only weren't asking for these units, we aren't excited about them either (by and large... I have seen one or two people express an interest in Bullgryns, but nothing I would call real excitement for them).
I think you have some selective bias in what you think IG players want. Catachan resculpts? Plastic DKoK? Be realistic.
Yes, the new stuff is mostly terribad, yes most of the miscellaneous guard stuff still sucks, yes the removal of special characters is a blatant money grab.
The book overall though is extremely improved. Better orders, better HQ, better troops, better tanks.
ClockworkZion wrote: Just out of curiousity, when is the last time GW ever came out with something new and people said "that is exactly what we asked for?" Because as far as I can remember every release has had an undertone of having stuff no one asked for.
I asked for THIS and they gave it to me!!!
Let me clarify: When's the last time the main studio has released stuff and people felt like they got what they wanted?
I was being sarcastic because I'm frankly somewhat annoyed by all the whining; it seems that the 6th edition IG codex will certainly be far less of a disappointment compared to the Nid one.
I have no IG models so I'm not particularly well versed in how IG play currently, but the new codex seems like an improvement.
People don't like change I guess, but it could've been much worse.
Truth118 wrote: I was being sarcastic because I'm frankly somewhat annoyed by all the whining; it seems that the 6th edition IG codex will certainly be far less of a disappointment compared to the Nid one.
I have no IG models so I'm not particularly well versed in how IG play currently, but the new codex seems like an improvement.
People don't like change I guess, but it could've been much worse.
There are definitely positive aspects to the codex, but the negative aspects are still there (or not there, as it were) and people are rightfully annoyed.
Removal of most of the book's special characters was unwarranted, as was the culling of the arty section to make way for the Wyvern.
There are people on these boards who express their dissatisfaction in an irritating way, but that doesn't mean the negative criticism is whining.
Sure, the book could have been worse, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been better either. Removing several options from the book does not a happy player make.
That being said, I'm still moving on and adapting my army. Doesn't mean I'm also thrilled by the decision the design team with the book as a whole.
Bishop F Gantry wrote: Some Quick questions on the Ogryns, rough cost aproximation, equal to a termie per model or similar, are they elite or Heavy support?
Size of squad,main diffrences with bullygryns? For transports what size do they use 2 models or 3 models for transporting purpouses?
General impressions?
Ogryn
Equal cost to termy ppm
Min size 3 (2 normals, 1 bone ead)
Very Bulky
5+ save (flak armor)
T5 3W each model
Elite
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Bullgryns
5 points more than a termy
Same stat line as ogryn, except with a 4+ save (carapace armor)
comes with a 12" range blast only grenade launcher
has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
wait so do bullgryns come with 4+ saves by default, being able to increase it to 3+ due to the shield rule, or are they default 5+ save but increase to 4+ because of the shield rule?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
And in front of it IMO that's why Bullgryns aren't really that great. They increase the cover save of you unit, but they also end up increasing the cover save of everyone your unit tries to fire at, and given guard tend to favour shooting over CC, it's not really a great boost. Unless you can position them to grant cover against one unit while another unit is free to shoot at, but that's easier said than done with anything other than a 1 man unit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
And in front of it IMO that's why Bullgryns aren't really that great. They increase the cover save of you unit, but they also end up increasing the cover save of everyone your unit tries to fire at, and given guard tend to favour shooting over CC, it's not really a great boost. Unless you can position them to grant cover against one unit while another unit is free to shoot at, but that's easier said than done with anything other than a 1 man unit.
Or if the stuff you are shooting with doesnt have a great AP value in the first place. Like Manticores or even better, Wyverns that have the additional benefit of ignoring cover.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
And in front of it IMO that's why Bullgryns aren't really that great. They increase the cover save of you unit, but they also end up increasing the cover save of everyone your unit tries to fire at, and given guard tend to favour shooting over CC, it's not really a great boost. Unless you can position them to grant cover against one unit while another unit is free to shoot at, but that's easier said than done with anything other than a 1 man unit.
Well...I guess you can do Tau-like movement shenanigans.
Like, movement phase you move the Bullgryns out of the way to give the units behind them a clear shot, and then run them back in front after everyone has shot.
A bit risky though.
has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
wait so do bullgryns come with 4+ saves by default, being able to increase it to 3+ due to the shield rule, or are they default 5+ save but increase to 4+ because of the shield rule?
4+ save default, gets buffed to 3+ as long as there is another shield in the unit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
And in front of it IMO that's why Bullgryns aren't really that great. They increase the cover save of you unit, but they also end up increasing the cover save of everyone your unit tries to fire at, and given guard tend to favour shooting over CC, it's not really a great boost. Unless you can position them to grant cover against one unit while another unit is free to shoot at, but that's easier said than done with anything other than a 1 man unit.
Well...I guess you can do Tau-like movement shenanigans.
Good point, I forgot about that order when judging the Bullgryns.
I also guess they could be good for keeping PCS/CCS alive for longer. Though it's a lot of points to pay for a babysitting unit, for the same price as 3 Bullgryns you could get a whole extra Infantry Platoon with PCS and 2 squads, so an extra 25 wounds, a couple more scoring units and access to another Commissar.
Oh wow at +5 points they are a steal, then. I dont care if I lose the ripper gun for the launcher; bullgryns are much better value per points.
Still not gonna buy the new models though - even though the riot shields look cool, the bane masks on them (and the moustache guy) look stupid.
I have the old (not old old) ogryns and I'll just proxy them as bullgryns attributing the 3+ saves to their muscles lol. besides the ripper gun does look like an AA12 grenade launcher.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield, and grants +1 to cover saves of any unit behind it.
And in front of it IMO that's why Bullgryns aren't really that great. They increase the cover save of you unit, but they also end up increasing the cover save of everyone your unit tries to fire at, and given guard tend to favour shooting over CC, it's not really a great boost. Unless you can position them to grant cover against one unit while another unit is free to shoot at, but that's easier said than done with anything other than a 1 man unit.
Well...I guess you can do Tau-like movement shenanigans.
Good point, I forgot about that order when judging the Bullgryns.
I also guess they could be good for keeping PCS/CCS alive for longer. Though it's a lot of points to pay for a babysitting unit, for the same price as 3 Bullgryns you could get a whole extra Infantry Platoon with PCS and 2 squads, so an extra 25 wounds, a couple more scoring units and access to another Commissar.
Order the Bullgryn to Move, Move, Move! sounds like a good way to do those movement shenanigans.
Omegus wrote: Sucks for you if you miss one of those orders and your whole little juggling act falls to the ground.
You can still run if you fail, you're just not rolling 3d6 and taking the highest making it less effective.
Yeah. As I said, it's risky but possible.
Oh definitely, but it's one of those things that can pay out well when/while it works.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly I'd just put some Russes (or Bassies) behind the Bullgryns instead as they're all enough to draw LOS without losing the bonus.
Omegus wrote: I think you have some selective bias in what you think IG players want. Catachan resculpts? Plastic DKoK? Be realistic.
Yes, the new stuff is mostly terribad, yes most of the miscellaneous guard stuff still sucks, yes the removal of special characters is a blatant money grab.
The book overall though is extremely improved. Better orders, better HQ, better troops, better tanks.
I'm not saying the codex AM is bad. Heck, as long as you run blob infantry or a tank-heavy formation, you can do a ton of damage with it. The new *rules* make the codex a pretty good one... for some people. I'm not one of those people, as I now have to: a) rebuild my army from the ground up, completely changing the theme and play style I was using, or b) keep using the 5th ed codex and not change a thing, or c) stop playing IG until the units I have are back in the codex (HA!). This is the second time I have had to rebuild an entire (or most of an entire) IG army because of codex alterations. The previous time was when we lost doctrines. I've had a SM army since 2nd edition. Do you know how many times I've had to change that army over the last 5 codexes?
Not once. Heck, I've never even had to drop a single unit. I may have had to add units (either to fill points or because something new was too useful to pass up) but I've never had to re-design an entire SM army.
When you consider how many models can go into re-building an IG force, and how much $$ that will cost, you can't blame me for being utterly disappointed in the new codex.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
So basically the same problem with Bullgryns with Slabshields is the same problem that Deathwing Knights have?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
As shooting from a unit is assumed to be simultaneous, it would only matter once you moved to the next unit's shooting I would imagine, unless I'm missing something.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
As shooting from a unit is assumed to be simultaneous, it would only matter once you moved to the next unit's shooting I would imagine, unless I'm missing something.
It could matter if you have some AP4 weapons in there, but since wounds are separated into pools based on AP types they opponent could just make you roll the AP4 last to get the most utility out of it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
As shooting from a unit is assumed to be simultaneous, it would only matter once you moved to the next unit's shooting I would imagine, unless I'm missing something.
It could matter if you have some AP4 weapons in there, but since wounds are separated into pools based on AP types they opponent could just make you roll the AP4 last to get the most utility out of it.
AFAIK even then, if it's all from the same unit, it's still assumed to be simultaneous so the 3+ would stand until the next unit shot at them.
Just like say, if you had a unit of 5 dudes, 3 in cover, 2 out. if you took 5 wounds from an enemy unit, 3 AP2 and 2 AP5, if they have you take the AP5 first and you fail both saves, the rest of the unit doesn't lose its cover save against the AP2 shooting just because now a majority of the unit is no longer in cover, only a subsequent unit shooting at the unit would benefit from that.
Cover is done on a model by model bases (hence why you can focus fire) so yeah, the models out of cover wouldn't get a save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To further muddy the waters: Shadowfields are a 2++ save that once you fail it you lose it. I see that as being a pretty good precedence of something like this as the save becomes downgraded because of a failed save.
So basically, yes, failing saves can result in having a worse armour save from the same shooting attack as far as I see it.
I think the new codex is worth buying (and have since, purchased it).
I'd rate its release as "good." There has been a nice re-balancing of models and the non-viable units are less numerous than before (a LOT of IG stuff was non-viable before).
I'd have gone with "great" had they not cut out the characters and tanks, etc. etc.
Still, it is a marked improvement in 6th edition codices IMO
ClockworkZion wrote: Cover is done on a model by model bases (hence why you can focus fire) so yeah, the models out of cover wouldn't get a save.
I don't have my rulebook on me, so I freely admit I could be wrong, but, unless I'm mistaken and everyone I've played with is too, the unit as a whole gets the cover save until it gets shot at again, as it had a majority of models in cover when shot at (unless they specifically focus fired, and otherwise the Focus Fire rule would have little point). Casualty removal is not broken up into initiative style phases, the shooting is supposed to be simultaneous, and thus even if the AP5 hits kill off enough such that a majority of the unit is not in cover, it's assumed the AP2 shots are hitting at the same time and so the unit still gets the cover save if not focus firing.
I may have to start a YMDC thread on that, but I believe if this principle is followed, then the downgrading of the save would only apply to the next unit to shoot at the Bullgryns.
To further muddy the waters: Shadowfields are a 2++ save that once you fail it you lose it. I see that as being a pretty good precedence of something like this as the save becomes downgraded because of a failed save.
It specifically says you lose the save however as soon as its failed, and applies only to a single model.
ClockworkZion wrote: Cover is done on a model by model bases (hence why you can focus fire) so yeah, the models out of cover wouldn't get a save.
I don't have my rulebook on me, so I freely admit I could be wrong, but, unless I'm mistaken and everyone I've played with is too, the unit as a whole gets the cover save (as otherwise Focus Fire serves no purpose) until it gets shot at again, as it had a majority of models in cover when shot at. Casualty removal is not broken up into initiative style phases, the shooting is supposed to be simultaneous, and thus even if the AP5 hits kill off enough such that a majority of the unit is not in cover, it's assumed the AP2 shots are hitting at the same time and so the unit still gets the cover save if not focus firing.
I may have to start a YMDC thread on that, but I believe if this principle is followed, then the downgrading of the save would only apply to the next unit to shoot at the Bullgryns.
Since models get cover on a by model basis (thus making Focus Fire work as you are focusing on models with a cover save of X or worse and ignoring the ones who have better ones in the same unit) then I'd have to say you're mixing up 5th ed's cover with 6th ed's.
To further muddy the waters: Shadowfields are a 2++ save that once you fail it you lose it. I see that as being a pretty good precedence of something like this as the save becomes downgraded because of a failed save.
It specifically says you lose the save however as soon as its failed, and applies only to a single model.
The point was that there is already a situation in the game that basically mimics the kind of situation we're discussing: one where the saves can change during the same shooting phase.
Vaktathi wrote: As shooting from a unit is assumed to be simultaneous, it would only matter once you moved to the next unit's shooting I would imagine, unless I'm missing something.
The armour saves only come in to play when you allocate a wound to a model, at which point you take their save. There is nothing saying to work out armour saves earlier than this, and it is only for the model that takes the wound. So you only determine the save when it needs to be rolled, at which point a Bullgryn may only have a 4+.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ...has a shield that gives it +1 to it's save if there is another model in the unit with the same type of shield...
It is much worse than that, and is actually a bit limiting. You need to be in base contact with another slab shield to get the bonus, This means that you either have to have the models lined up in base contact, or separate them out into pairs boosting each other. The first makes them easy pickings for blast weapons, the second means that after killing one model with shooting, the next few shots are against 4+.
I can see resolving wounds against a unit of these being slow, as you have to worry about at which point saves change.
So the best way to field this unit is in a U formation as that way wounds will always be allocated to the outermost ones and the chain cannot be broken?
well I got the AM codex and made some changes to my 1st post since I had gotten some details wrong, but overall I think it is still a shame we lost units otherwise this would have been the perfect codex.
Sir Arun wrote: well I got the AM codex and made some changes to my 1st post since I had gotten some details wrong, but overall I think it is still a shame we lost units otherwise this would have been the perfect codex.
The funniest bit is that most of the things that made this codex meh could have just been fixed with some copy+pasting. If GW had just copy+pasted the special characters, the missing vehicles, and penal legion squads from the previous codex most of my issues would be solved. But nope, they took them out instead.
Why?
i.e. how much of a copy-paste job it really ends up to be
