Just watched the video. A nice looking batch of figs. Nothing I need right now, but they look notably better than the WGF greatcoats infantry (not bad figs, but not great) and worlds ahead of the Greatcoat HW box (ugh..). I imagine the Defiance Germans will be even better. They give a very brief view of the aliens and the German rifle at the end.
Piston Honda wrote:Do you have a run down what exactly this game is suppose to be?
It's a game about squad or platoon strength battles in the 23rd century, featuring existing countries or derivatives thereof. The only magic tech is the FTL drive, which enables planet to planet transport in the space of a fortnight, more or less, and has been used by the various powers to establish colonies off world. There are a few alien species we know of so far - Hudson's bugs (which I've read as basically a territorial pack hunter rather than a faction in its own right) and the Vralk (apparently some kind of furry with a sub-modern technology base).
That video was a really nice way to showcase these models. I liked the bit-by-bit breakdown of the sprue contents. I hope they can do similar breakdowns as new models come out! It's also a good way to keep interest in light of all the delays and the like. Looking forward to getting a set of my own.
Yeah now the people who ordered months ago can finally get what they paid for. =o]
Hopefully Tony also kicked the crap out of convinced the mold maker for the delays Now Defience can work on the Germans and the USMC Hardsuits.
I love the look of the Hardsuit, like I said before it's got a MaK vibe to it that I like and I think it would fit in well with Tomorrow's War. Get the run going tony for the Hardsuits and it will be 'shut up and take my money'.
Piston Honda wrote:Do you have a run down what exactly this game is suppose to be?
It's a game about squad or platoon strength battles in the 23rd century, featuring existing countries or derivatives thereof. The only magic tech is the FTL drive, which enables planet to planet transport in the space of a fortnight, more or less, and has been used by the various powers to establish colonies off world. There are a few alien species we know of so far - Hudson's bugs (which I've read as basically a territorial pack hunter rather than a faction in its own right) and the Vralk (apparently some kind of furry with a sub-modern technology base).
Piston Honda wrote:Do you have a run down what exactly this game is suppose to be?
It's a game about squad or platoon strength battles in the 23rd century, featuring existing countries or derivatives thereof. The only magic tech is the FTL drive, which enables planet to planet transport in the space of a fortnight, more or less, and has been used by the various powers to establish colonies off world. There are a few alien species we know of so far - Hudson's bugs (which I've read as basically a territorial pack hunter rather than a faction in its own right) and the Vralk (apparently some kind of furry with a sub-modern technology base).
crap, why did I ask, I'm interested now.
fahk fahk fahk
Then whatever you do, dont go onto their forums, because it'll only get worse from there
There's a lot of cool ideas floating around and seems like they've got a really cool universe in the making. Basically, think of 18th to 19th century colonialism and expansionist policies, except with FTL travel, conflicts deciding the ownership or entire planets, and constant threat of alien attack thrown in for good measure.
Almost all the major world powers are going to be represented. If I remember corectly, besides germans and americans, french, commonwealth (english, austrailian, india, and others) chinese, and russia, will all play major roles and recieve "core" sets (basically, they'll be a main army). Then you've got various mercenery outfits and fringe interests groups (there may even be a Vatican honour guard force in the making) as well as the local alien natives that are being "colonized".
For the record, us playtester types should be getting a couple of sprues each in the mail (a couple of the guys have already got theirs). When I get mine I'll get them assembled post-haste and post pictures along with size comparisons with GW and Mantic stuff.
Piston Honda wrote:crap, why did I ask, I'm interested now.
The forces so far, and a few comments on how I'd like to see them done:
USA - USMC: Think Colonial Marines. Medium quality infantry in medium quality armour. I've suggested the US military be split along mobile vs. defensive lines - the former (USMC) having to punch above its weight due to the constraints of the FTL technology while the latter (Army/Space Coast Guard/whatever) can compensate by just building more big tanks.
Germany - Panzergrenadiers: Elite infantry in heavy armour, backed up by full size walkers instead of hardsuits. Definitely not Space Nazis.
France - French Foreign Legion: Combined human/alien force. The existing use of the FFL as a path for non-Frenchmen to gain French citizenship is well suited to sci-fi.
Vatican - Vatican Armed Forces: Consider themselves peacekeepers in the Jedi sense, with Force powers replaced with mecha. Should be an opportunity to make more stylised hardsuits that fit in better with 40k's aesthetic.
China - People's Liberation Army: Primarily made up of conscripts from their colonies both on and off world, lead by hardsuits. I've suggested they get the heaviest, slowest warships, so they can hold in reserve the capacity to destroy Watch satellites or deploy heavier armoured units.
Nordic Federation - Valkyries: An all female, all hardsuit fighting force. The concept art shows a "female" variant of the Assured Outcomes hardsuit, with lighter armour and heavier weapons. Might be an excuse to make some Mass Effect-style armoured bodygloves for dismounted pilots or infantry too.
Independent - Assured Outcomes: A Private Military Company lead by a Russian veteran. The concept art shows a "male" variant of the Valkyrie hardsuit, with heavier armour and lighter weapons.
Commonwealth - ???: Not much information yet, but I've suggested it be based out of Australia rather than the UK. You'd still have things like the S.A.S. and Gurkhas, but I think having a "King in exile" would be an interesting development.
Japan - ??? ("Hashimoto Robotics Corporation" is the force I suggested): No information yet, but I'm hoping for combat robots that are sold to other countries. This would provide a way to do things like field heavy weapons before your force's heavy weapon kits are available.
Hudson's Bugs & Vralk: I've already mentioned these. Both are present on the first campaign world, Aleutia.
The Watch - Artillects: A background only force. Made up of AI-controlled peacekeeper satellites that lob munitions at people who do things they don't like. I've argued that they should be toned down both in strength and in how trigger-happy they are but it remains to be seen whether Tony takes my advice.
.... I'm really glad that they're taking the time to show us all these videos and stuff. It really helps get interest in it when they can point at the sprue and go, "Yeah, we thought this would be cool, here's why."
I also really liked how they were giving tips for how to convert them, like how for the MG's, he states that if you hate the underslung GL, the easiest way to get it off is with an exacto knife along the bottom of the gun. People on the forum had had mixed feelings about it, but I'm glad they slapped it on and said "hey if you don't like it, here's the best way to get it off."
That said, I wish they'd use something besides an iPhone to take the videos. That showed the detail fairly well, but I think it wouldn't hurt after they sell a few kits to get a HD camera for pics of their models...
I agree 100% with everything you state here. The sprues look great, you get a lot for your money, there seems to be PLENTY of variety in the box, and he even tells you how to easily change some of the pieces if you care for them. But good lord I hope he at least sets his camera on a box next time. I was getting sick about half way through.
Love how he has the open bottle of Sam Adams on his desk while he is filming that video. Wish they would of been a little smaller, the comparison shot has them as the same height as a Space Marine. Still going to have to get some though. They look awesome.
is there going to be Heavier Weapon options, Missile Lauchers, Futuristic M2 .50 Cals, Mortars, etc so it might be possible to use them for other game systems. Don't think I could win too many games armed with nothing but Heavy Bolters, and autoguns.
Fosner1703 wrote:Wish they would of been a little smaller, the comparison shot has them as the same height as a Space Marine.
I would never expect anyone to scale their models to Space Marines - they're not even in scale with themselves!
is there going to be Heavier Weapon options, Missile Lauchers, Futuristic M2 .50 Cals, Mortars, etc so it might be possible to use them for other game systems. Don't think I could win too many games armed with nothing but Heavy Bolters, and autoguns.
It's actually closer to heavy stubbers and autoguns, I think. But yes, DFG do intend to release USMC heavy and special weapon sprues.
From Defiance Games facebook page, just posted by Tony:
We're looking at the German parts now and finalizing everything. Take a look at these and tell us what you think. One question we have - on the armor plates would you like to have that raised central area on each plate further raised (i.e. a higher ridge)? Would that make it easier to paint? Let us know your thoughts!
Fosner1703 wrote:Love how he has the open bottle of Sam Adams on his desk while he is filming that video. Wish they would of been a little smaller, the comparison shot has them as the same height as a Space Marine. Still going to have to get some though. They look awesome.
is there going to be Heavier Weapon options, Missile Lauchers, Futuristic M2 .50 Cals, Mortars, etc so it might be possible to use them for other game systems. Don't think I could win too many games armed with nothing but Heavy Bolters, and autoguns.
On the scale thing, normal IG cadians and catachans are already taller than normal space marines, so if anything, they'll be perfectly in scale with other IG guardsmen. I stood some of my cadians up to some AoBR marines the other day, and was shocked to notice that my guardsmen were looking DOWN on the space marines. Yes, I know the SM are kind of crouching, but still, that doesn't make any sense at all. And those are GW official models
As for the heavier weapons options, yes, there are heavy weapons on the list for the future. Hardsuits will be out first though, which are basically normal guys in heavily armored exosuits with heavier weapons than a normal infantryman could carry, but smaller than an actual dedicated heavy weapon. They'll probably release heavy weapons after the germans get their walker, the USMC get their hardsuits, and the bugs get their warriors.
Absolutionis wrote:Aren't these the guys that split off from Wargames Factory after the new management?
If these are really the guys that were responsible for the delays in the Wargames Factory production, and the current production of Defiance Games is again way behind schedule, I see a pattern.
winnertakesall wrote:From Defiance Games facebook page, just posted by Tony:
I hate it. I hated it when we first saw it three months ago, and I still hate it now. The concept art suggested that the Panzergrenadiers would be wearing a suit of body armour of a consistent style (plates-over-straps-over-fatigues), not the hodgepodge seen on the models.
Absolutionis wrote:Aren't these the guys that split off from Wargames Factory after the new management?
If these are really the guys that were responsible for the delays in the Wargames Factory production, and the current production of Defiance Games is again way behind schedule, I see a pattern.
These are the former WGF guys, but if you actually go and look at all the facts in that situation,it was, in fact, the current Chinese WGF guys that caused the issues with delays. It looks very much like Tony sold shares of the company to the Chinese manufacturers to get some operating capitol so he could get some sets out faster. Then for some strange reason the shipments from China suddenly started getting delayed more and more, further causing WGF to have financial issues because if you don't have stuff to sell then you cannot get capitol from the profits. It finally ended with a forced cue with inside help from the sales manager with the Chinese guys stating that Tony wasn't doing enough to sell product that he didn't even have because they had it held up in shipping.
I do not know if this is a 100% accurate telling of the situation, but from what I understand it is rather correct. The Chinese guys who operate WGF now pretty much caused fake issues to drown the company in operating costs so that they could take over and produce crappy models. So the delays that you speak of were caused by people other than Tony, AFAIK. So while there are delays associated with both companies, I do not actually see a pattern at all.
kenshin620 wrote:And yet the "new" WGF are at least releasing models at the dates they call
Not saying I approve of them, just pointing that whatever problems they had are now naught
Well of course they are. Shortly after Tony and Howard got forced out the product magically appeared and started shipping. I do not know 100% of everything that went down, but the whole situation was suspicious and I find it hard to understand how product just magically appeared shortly after Tony signed the papers that ended his ownership of WGF.
Anyways theres a quick review from someone who got the test sprues. He did a few alterations
WIP: Defiance Games...
Marine. Had to take a break from painting yesterday for a few hours as we were having a boiler fitted in my attic workspace - not very condusive to sitting in deep concentration with a steady hand - so I started putting together a Defiance Games Marine from the three test-sprues Tony Reidy sent me. Let me state immediately - I like these! Despite the furore (you weren't aware of it? Where have you been!?) that's surrounded the release (well about to be released to be more accurate) of these miniatures I think they have a great deal of potential in terms of conversion (which is why I ordered several sets in the first place) and will look great with (and in) a number of the 28mm sci-fi vehicles I have in my collection. Being plastic there are some issues - lack of undercuts, 'soft detailing - but the material is so easy to manipulate and work with that these are only minor problems for anybody with a little modelling experience and the right tools.
I've put together a head, torso and legs and removed all the mould lines which are inherent to any casting be it metal, resin or plastic. I've then set about refining the detail and improving the undercuts in certain areas.
Here are some comparison pics of a marine OOB and one I've 'enhanced' - pockets; buttons removed to be replaced at a later stage, flaps and expansion pleat given sharper definition. Body-armour; back of the arms, shoulder pads given undercuts and better definition. Boots; soles defined. Head; peak of cap thinned near ears, 'Colonial Marines' collar added to neck (I tend to do this with most figures that have a seperate head to improve the fit - the head is not permanently attached just blu-tacked - I would normally do this with modelling epoxy but here have drilled out the end of a plasticard tube and filed it down to nearer scale thickness then cut the opening in the front). Belt; most importantly, for me, I've given him an 'arse' by carving away the belt at the rear and then recarving to give an overall smaller waist and better shaped posterior. This also makes the back of the body armour appear bulkier and overhang the waist. A little more cleaning-up then I'll move on to the arms and weapon.
I agree with the blobby knees and not following the concept art. The knee issue is, I believe, the top of the shin armor. A little filing should give it more of a hard edge. Which brings up another point...why is it that some mini's can have nice crisp edges in plastic and others cannot? It's obvious that the mini can he designed with imense amounts of detail. So I am left to believe that the mold cutting technique is the failure here. I guess that better crisper detail requires a more expensive mold making technique or something similar.
And why is it that so often you see mini's that only vaguely resemble the concept art? I loved the armor details and design in the concept art, but the actual models armor looks vastly different. Again, I am left to believe that the mini was altered to deal with mold making issues/deficiencies because a less expensive technique had to be used.
I could also be completely wrong on all counts though. Either way, I still like them and still plan to purchase them, just wish we had gotten something closer to the actual concept art instead.
I think they follow the concept art fairly well, but the knees are definitely too round and blobby for my tastes, and are the most noticeable straying from said concept art.
Fetterkey wrote:Wow. These miniatures are really nice-- those comparison pictures are quite telling.
Haha....what?
You realise that the Defiance model is the blobby piece of garbage in the middle of each photo right?
Did you see the post where someone who mind-bogglingly states that they like the range spent at least half an hour hacking detail into a model with the definition and layering of a novelty candle?
Why do hobbyists keep supporting the production of crap? It's cheaper than GW so we'll accept design and production values that would be unacceptable in Kinder Surprise toys? Alternatives to GW don't have to be half-assed piles of fecal matter. If you're going to vote with your wallet then at least cast a vote for quality and not just for anything that isn't GW.
plastictrees wrote:
Haha....what?
You realise that the Defiance model is the blobby piece of garbage in the middle of each photo right?
Did you see the post where someone who mind-bogglingly states that they like the range spent at least half an hour hacking detail into a model with the definition and layering of a novelty candle?
Why do hobbyists keep supporting the production of crap? It's cheaper than GW so we'll accept design and production values that would be unacceptable in Kinder Surprise toys? Alternatives to GW don't have to be half-assed piles of fecal matter. If you're going to vote with your wallet then at least cast a vote for quality and not just for anything that isn't GW.
Holy balls.
The models don't look terrible in my eyes. They're not as good as GW's, but they look better to me than Mantic or WGF models. I'm really looking forward to seeing some good pictures of these guys painted up, as flat grey plastic isn't exactly impressive to photograph.
Fetterkey wrote:Wow. These miniatures are really nice-- those comparison pictures are quite telling.
Haha....what?
You realise that the Defiance model is the blobby piece of garbage in the middle of each photo right?
Did you see the post where someone who mind-bogglingly states that they like the range spent at least half an hour hacking detail into a model with the definition and layering of a novelty candle?
Why do hobbyists keep supporting the production of crap? It's cheaper than GW so we'll accept design and production values that would be unacceptable in Kinder Surprise toys? Alternatives to GW don't have to be half-assed piles of fecal matter. If you're going to vote with your wallet then at least cast a vote for quality and not just for anything that isn't GW.
Personally, I think the Defiance USMC look better than any of the other human miniatures shown. They are clearly much better-proportioned than the goofy GW Cadians and absolutely blow WGF greatcoats out of the water. At this point, if I were making an Imperial Guard army, I would strongly consider using the Defiance Games miniatures-- perhaps with GW weapons, and perhaps without. Overall, I think GW more or less does a good job-- I love my Marine army-- but 30 dollars for 10 Cadians is too much, especially when my dream IG army would have 100+ infantry and several vehicles. Let's say I want 95 guys-- that would cost me about 100 from Defiance, and about 300 from GW. When I think the Defiance models are probably better than the GW ones, and I can get three of them for each GW one, the choice becomes pretty obvious.
If that's not your opinion, whatever, but don't throw a fit because other people don't like what you like.
Fetterkey wrote:Wow. These miniatures are really nice-- those comparison pictures are quite telling.
Haha....what?
You realise that the Defiance model is the blobby piece of garbage in the middle of each photo right?
Did you see the post where someone who mind-bogglingly states that they like the range spent at least half an hour hacking detail into a model with the definition and layering of a novelty candle?
Why do hobbyists keep supporting the production of crap? It's cheaper than GW so we'll accept design and production values that would be unacceptable in Kinder Surprise toys? Alternatives to GW don't have to be half-assed piles of fecal matter. If you're going to vote with your wallet then at least cast a vote for quality and not just for anything that isn't GW.
Ummm....what? <GW = "half-assed piles of fecal matter"? What are you on? They look like quite nice models to me, not up to the same standard that GW is, but it's perfectly fine. I'm considering adding a couple to my IG army.>
Need to see some painted, or at least primered models. The light coming off the plastic and the lack of shadows is making it hard to gauge.
But at those prices, I think most models would be worth it so long as they weren't pockmarked with craters or weapons drooping like they were left out in the sun too long.
Yeah the only thing that bugs me at the moment is the shinguards, everything else on him looks pretty good. A little work with an exacto knife and I could probably fix them pretty easily. I'm not about to spend an hour on each guy, but a couple minutes sharpening the lines wouldn't be too bad.
Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality won't be quite as high (the whole you get what you paid for thing) But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them. If they're this close to GW quality, and they can get you almost 2.5x the amount of guys for the money, I don't see why most people would ever bother with the cadians.
I'm still hesitant to say "awesome figs" until I get mine, but from everything I've seen, I think they'll end up being a good buy.
EDIT: Tried to reword my post so it makes more sense.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality will be lower.
That's just nonsense. Much of the problem I have with these is caused by deliberate design decisions like the bloated helmets and breastplates instead of the form fitting armour shown in the art. The rest... if they can get adequate sculpt quality on the guns, there's no reason why they can't do the same thing with the rest of the model.
But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them.
You ignore the third option. As long as neither Defiance nor GW are willing and able to sell a product I find acceptable, I'd rather go without.
I'll post pictures of primered minis tomorrow -- I plan to start painting tonight so, as long as you can stand brown mini like the Mantic Skellie above, that's what you'll see. This assumes I remember to take the pictures before starting the paint.
As to combining GW parts with DG, I wouldn't advise it. I actually did some tests using spare Cadian arms and while they don't look too off, the hands are enormous combined to the original mini! Plus, if you want to use a Cadian head you'll need to build up the neck with some green stuff, as the head sits very low on the shoulders otherwise. You could splice on a lasgun, but it'll look HUGE (moreso than normal). There's also this comparison shot of a Catachan Tony took:
Tonight, I'll take some shots of parts mixed and matched using spare legs and Cadian torsos plus Marine arms.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality will be lower.
That's just nonsense. Much of the problem I have with these is caused by deliberate design decisions like the bloated helmets and breastplates instead of the form fitting armour shown in the art. The rest... if they can get adequate sculpt quality on the guns, there's no reason why they can't do the same thing with the rest of the model.
But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them.
You ignore the third option. As long as neither Defiance nor GW are willing and able to sell a product I find acceptable, I'd rather go without.
What I was implying was that while these guys aren't as amazing as the GW models, to me, I feel the extra minis was worth it for the price. I wasn't a huge fan of the original marine concept art, so it doesn't bug me as much. I can understand you being a bit miffed that it's not dead on the concept art, they did change a lot. However, I don't mind the changes (except for the shinguards, I agree, something looks off on them. It's like in some pics they look fine, and in others, god awful. I'll have to wait till mine show up before I can make up my mind on them) If they had gone with a smaller helmet, the head would have looked tiny compared to the body. And if you look at the comparison pics, like the one above my post, I don't think they look that bloated when they're compared to other companies figures, or even other marines. These helmets are packed with electronics, and protection to help the guy stay alive. Had it been any smaller, and I would've had a hard time taking it seriously to be honest. Once you take the rest of the model into account, they seem to fit fairly well. I'll probably even replace all the heads on my cadians with spares from my USMC, since they look a million times better than that football helmet the cadians wear
And if you don't have to buy the models, cool, that's your choice man. I was merely comparing the two and asking which you would rather have. Slightly sharper details, or 14 more guys. There are guys that will go with the latter (like me), and guys like you who will go for the former (not saying you want GW, just you want more detail, which is perfectly understandable! ) and there's nothing wrong with either viewpoint. For a guy like me who plays a massive foot horde guard army, one or 2 guys with slightly soft details doesn't bother me so much, as I highly doubt my opponent would notice. For a guy who's playing smaller games, this could be very annoying, so I don't blame them for being miffed at all. The fact that they're barely more than WGF Great coats (for how much you're paying per model) and yet seem to be leagues ahead in quality, is plenty enough for me. If I don't like it, that's what I've got greenstuff and exacto knives for
I'm not trying to call you out or anything, just trying to explain my point of view. I'm sorry if I came across as mean or snobby, kinda hard to type well on a tiny little Kin phone
Well... feth. Why is the man incapable of just following the concept art?
Seriously, how is he not following the concept art in a way that does not make them what you expected?
I'm sitting here looking at a DFG Marine in my hand, and the image you link to. Here are the differences I see:
A. The pose is different from what I could do with the set. No seperate helmet, and no arm that lets the gun hang down by the figures side.
B. The bare head on the sprue doesn't have the mic, only the head with the 8 point hat does.
C. The hands do not have the half gloves.
Other than those things, the rest of the details you can point to on the concept art are on the drawing. Maybe not in exactly the same proportion, but come on, can you point to any concept art/mini pairing that doesn't have differences? I'm a huge fan of Sandra Garrity, Julie Guthrie, Gene Van Horne and Bob Rudolfi, and as much as I love their stuff, I can grab a lot of the concept art that's been given to them by Reaper and nit pick differences between the art and the minis they've done. That's simply the reality of the differences between a detailed 2d drawing that's 6-8" high, and a 3D sculpted mini that's a little over an inch tall.
Now, of the 3 differences I note above:
A. I can live without the pose in the concept art. It's likely a pose I'd only use for a sergeant or officer anyway, and will only need one of in my army. No big loss.
B. There is a head with the mic. Plus most of mine are going to have helmets, since smart soldiers wear theirs in combat. I can wait for more head options on later sets.
C. This is the one major omission from the concept art I can see. Frankly, the lack of gloves don't bother me, bare hands will be easier to paint.
Are these the greatest miniatures in the world? No. But they look pretty darn good and similar levels of quality when set next to any of the plastic GW figs I've drug out - which includes a Necromunda Orlock, a 90's era Space Marine and a LotR Gondor Swordsman figure. It also looked pretty good compared to a Reaper NOVA Corp figure.
And a funny thing about setting next to the GW figures - I noticed for the first time ever how skewed the leg proportions are on the GW figures. Hold your elbow next to your knee, and place your forearm against the side of your calf. Your finger tips will end right about your ankles. The forearms on most of the GW minis are twice as long as the lower leg is.
Well... feth. Why is the man incapable of just following the concept art?
Seriously, how is he not following the concept art in a way that does not make them what you expected?
Look at the cuirass and the helmet. In the art, both are quite thin and do not obscure the silhouette of the soldier that wears them. The armour on the model is far bulkier, distorting the apparent proportions of the model in a way the art's armour does not.
Any chance all y'all could stop bickering back and forth about this? The Marines differs from the concept art: the proportions are different and the torso armor is different. Neither of these bother me, but that's a matter of personal taste. No sense bickering back and forth about it. Mr. Holker doesn't like the changes and that's the be all, end all of it. No sense berating him about it (and vice versa, honestly -- it's all a matter of individual tastes).
Blackhoof wrote:i dont mind the models at all. far more realistically proportioned than GW
I agree 100%. The preportions are excellent. It's one of the reasons I like these guys. Also love the alien bug as well. I like how it isn't a super bug in size and is actually smaller than the marines. I look forward to seeing how the various hardsuit designs come out. And the heavy weapons.
Blackhoof wrote:i dont mind the models at all. far more realistically proportioned than GW
I agree 100%. The preportions are excellent. It's one of the reasons I like these guys. Also love the alien bug as well. I like how it isn't a super bug in size and is actually smaller than the marines. I look forward to seeing how the various hardsuit designs come out. And the heavy weapons.
The warrior bugs should be larger down the road, probably about the same size as the hardsuits. These bugs we're seeing right now are the basic workers/drones. They're not exactly made for combat, but apparently they can hold their own fairly well.
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.
It looks kind of wierd. I expected a taller box. Looks like they're packing the sprues either 3x3x3x3 in quadrants, or doing 6 deep side by side, with the former being more likely. Probably a good thing, as that will be much easier to fit on store shelves. I remember the weird shape the greatcoat trooper boxes were in back at WGF and they don't fit on shelves very well at all...
Xeno wrote:Scale comparisons with every relevant mini I could dredge up:
With Cadians and Marines
....
Thanks for posting these pics. Clearly the Deviance plastics aren't quite up to the level of detail as GW, but they aren't bad figs at all. Note that while the helmets and legs are a bit softer in detail than their GW counterparts, the weaver rail and some of the smaller detail on the assualt rifles is as fine as anything on the cadians. This speaks well of Defiances design/production capabilities and the possibilities for future sets.
Interesting that they are actually a smidge taller than cadians. Compared to true human proportions they are still a bit on the heroic side for both the bodies and the guns, but that's practically a requirement for sci-fi 28/30mm these days and they certainly aren't the chunky gunned, massive handed (my biggest beef with WGF Greatcoats, Cadians and Catachans) and rediculously musclebound (Cadians anyone?) proportions that GW favors.
They look like they could mix fairly well with cadian parts (with abit of modding) though thankfully they're too small to work well with Catachan parts.
A minor point, but I do wish they'd not put a raised section on the bottom of their bases, as it makes it more difficult to glue coins or washers to the inside of the base to add weight. I'm sure it can be cut out, but it's still an annoyance. I really like the fact that it's so easy to glue pennies inside of non-slotta GW 25mm round bases to add a touch of stability.
All in all, I'd say nice job to Defiance for their first release. Well ahead of WGF Sci-fi figs, and not far behind GW. A good quality kit whose minor issues are far outweighed by a very affordable price. I'm not currently in the market for more basic human troopers, but if I were, these would be on the list for consideration.
Related issue:
Anybody have pics of these figs with a Pig Iron head yet?
The pictures aren't very clear (cheap camera, no light box) but, at least to me, the DG Marines are about as detailed as the Cadians. It's just a touch harder to tell without paint on them. I'd have some painted pic, I screwed up the paint job and decided to just Simple Green the guys and star over :(
MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.
Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.
Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.
You have a great point. Clearly he started this project KNOWING ALL THE WHILE that the Eagle Globe and Anchor is trademarked. This way, he can take customers money, promise the product and just before it releases, declare a delay due to possible litigation! THEN, while no one was looking, he could have jumped out the window with the suitcase of ill gotten gains. And he would have gotten away for it if it wasn't for all the dedicated sleuthing you did piecing together his perfect crime.
That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.
That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.
Yes, buuuuut every aspect of this project has lead to delays. Everything. Designing, mastering, mould making, delivery now box art.
I mean, I dont think the guy is really a big crook, I just think he is very very dumb. I mean, come on, how can you invest the kind of money that is needed to print up a load of box art without even checking if you are in breech of copyright against ELITE TROOPS WITH BIG GUNS?
Its not that Tony comes across a willfully trying to rip everyone off, he comes across as a total fool. Why give him money when there are equally as cheap and equally as good models already on the market?
MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.
Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.
kenshin620 wrote:Huh, found this on TT fix. Looks like we're gonna have some more sci fi plastics in the future. I think these were the same guys who popped in here a few months ago with some type of poll (or was it a different forum? Cant remember.)
Also they named their range Alien Suns....
Although ehh....models look okish. Not much to tell, only one thing. And MORE GAS MASK GERMANS IN THE FAR FUTURE
That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.
Yes, buuuuut every aspect of this project has lead to delays. Everything. Designing, mastering, mould making, delivery now box art.
I mean, I dont think the guy is really a big crook, I just think he is very very dumb. I mean, come on, how can you invest the kind of money that is needed to print up a load of box art without even checking if you are in breech of copyright against ELITE TROOPS WITH BIG GUNS?
Its not that Tony comes across a willfully trying to rip everyone off, he comes across as a total fool. Why give him money when there are equally as cheap and equally as good models already on the market?
He probably assumed, as did i, that military insignia isnt copyrightable. Thats why movies dont go out of their way to change the iron cross, or why GW doesnt get sued for the double headed eagle.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.
Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.
Do you have a link to this info or are you speculating? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't find any word of this on their site. This is the kind of statement that should really have a link to the source.
He's been working on this universe for years, apparantly, in his spare time. A few years back, he checked to see if it's legal, and apparantly it was. Having no reason to suspect otherwise, when the company started up, he assumed it was still good. The boxes haven't been printed yet, the changes have been made, no harm no foul.
And only 6 months behind schedule!
At this rate, they'll run themselves out of business inside a year unless they can keep selling the marines because I don't see people trusting their release schedule and plunking down pre-order money.
Quite sad, really; I had high hopes for them when they first started up....
noneoftheabove0 wrote:He's been working on this universe for years, apparantly, in his spare time. A few years back, he checked to see if it's legal, and apparantly it was. Having no reason to suspect otherwise, when the company started up, he assumed it was still good. The boxes haven't been printed yet, the changes have been made, no harm no foul.
I'm calling BS on that one. Copy right laws haven't changed that much and the USMC has always been particular about how their symbols and name are used.
Here is a policy letter from 1997. http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%205030.3B.pdf You want to us to believe that Tony complied with that even if he didn't comply with current procedure? If he did, he would have had approval, even if it was done a long time ago.
As far as I see it, who cares if he had to change the name, as long as they still get the product out and there is no delay, which there isn't because all that had to be changed was one thing. This isn't the first company in existence who has had to change a name because of legal troubles.
I personally wouldn't have thought it was an issue, but that's why I don't make things like this. Has anyone actually heard him say he checked it out? Or is all of this assumption and word of mouth? Perhaps he just got bad legal advice by someone, but like I said i don't mind since the boxes will still be printed Monday and the frames are still being produced.
Howard said its because of the 2009 policy the USMC made. But even so, it was a simple fix and the boxes are still getting printed Monday. Model and miniature companies always run this risk, especially scale modeling companies. I'm just glad there is no delay.
The USMC and UAMC dealie is explained in greater detail by Tony:
When I first researched future Marines I hunted around for info on the use of the USMC name and all that goes with it. Unfortunately, I was looking at really dated info because a couple years ago the Marine Corps got TOUGH with their trademarks including "USMC", "US Marines", "United States Marine Corps", "Marines", and the globe and anchor logo! The info I DID find at the time led me to believe it would be no problem. Coupled with the fact that there were also so many other miniature companies using the terms USMC and US Marines it didn't seem like an issue, and I didn't bother pursuing it further. Bad Tony.
Luckily, the "new" (2009) trademark laws were pointed out to us RIGHT before we printed the boxes today! To make sure we don't run afoul of USMC branding, I've reintroduced an idea from the original timeline and we've removed any reference to USMC, US Marines, and the glove and anchor logo, etc. to steer clear of any issues. Thanks to some hard work by our printing company, we can move forward with redesigned boxes without missing a beat.
So what are these changes and what is the UAMC? I had always envisioned the USA in Alien War being larger than today's 50 states with the incorporation of Mexico and a few other bits...but had thought to just keep it as the United States of America. This inability to use the USMC name brings us back to the idea that the name of the country should really change when a merger of the magnitude I had in mind occurs. And this is a merger in the true sense of equal partners coming together in our future timeline. Hence - the United Americas are born.
The United Americas was formed during the late 22nd century in the aftermath of the Central American War (2168-2173). That conflict sprouted from the national governments of Nicaragua, Honduras, and Guatemala fighting off Andean-backed Neo-Feudal insurgencies. The Andean Confederation was originally comprised of the former nations of Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador but had grown in the mid-22nd century to include Panama, Costa Rica, and El Salavador. The Andean Confederation, a Neo-Feudal state, was a member of the Free People's Coalition for Mutual Benefit - supported by Imperial China as were dozens of other client states across the globe. At first the conflict was nothing more than any of the dozens of other "Small Hots" that constantly broke out across Earth and the Off Earth colonies, but that changed quickly.
As the Central American state governments faltered against the well-armed and coordinated insurgents, Mexico, assuming it was next on the list in the ever-expanding Andean Confederation, went "all in" with their own military. It was the perfect excuse for the Andean Confederation to commit their forces under the guise of "peacekeepers".
Mexico was quickly put on the defensive and ultimately pushed back across it's own southern border. Anonymous vid and "reports" of atrocities by Mexican troops against their own citizens gave the Andeans all the legitimacy they needed to move troops into the Yucatan Peninsula.
Impotent protests came from across the world and even from the mostly defunct United Nations of which neither Mexico, China, or the Confederation were a member - but the Andean advance was inexorable.
United States President Tess Nakamura, responding to urgent requests for assistance from the Mexican president, invoked the near-forgotten Monroe Doctrine and committed US forces to Mexico's defense. Faced with the potential for total war against a military peer, the Chinese-supported Andean forces backed down and "transferred" responsibility for "peacekeeping" to the United States.
By the time this played out, new Neo-Feudal regimes had been installed in Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Honduras with formal admission to the Confederation and in turn the Free People's Coalition for Mutual Benefit - i.e. client states of the Chinese Empire. The Central American nations joined dozens of others in South America, Africa, and Asia already part of the FPC. The southern Mexico border became the most militarized stretch of land on Earth with US and Mexican forces in the north and an Andean Confederation and Chinese line troops in the south.
This new Andean/Chinese threat and the American response effectively super-charged the already existing "Special Relationship" that Mexico and the US had developed throughout the 21st and 22nd centuries. Starting with NAFTA in the late 20th century, the two nations had slowly removed nearly every barrier becoming in effect a North American version of the European Union (although that entity didn't exist at this point of course). With linked cultures and parity between standards of living, Mexico and the United States were essentially operating as a single mega-country in everything but name. The new and apparently permanent Andean/Chinese threat became the catalyst to move the relationship to its logical conclusion - integration.
Still, over 20 years passed from the time Representative Jacob O'Brien of the US and Senator Ruben Javier Macias of Mexico presented their joint Articles of Union until the treaty was finally ratified by both nations. While many in both nations worked hard to come together, there were also many incidents of unrest, outright revolution, and massive exoduses of groups Off Earth who wanted no part of the conjoined nation.
The Articles of Union were signed on September 16, 2197 which also marked the 387th year since Mexican independence from Spain. A new nation comprising 85 states and 2 federal districts with a population of over 1 billion was born - the United Americas.
One of the most difficult challenges for the process of union was the integration of the various branches of the military. One branch that had very little difficulty was the United States Marine Corps as the Mexican equivalent was wrapped directly into the merged Coast Guards of the two nations. The official name change took place on November 10, 2197 to ensure that the "Marine Corps Birthday" remained unchanged. Although there were protests internally and from former Marines at the changed name, the reborn United Americas Marine Corps is truly a direct descendant of the USMC retaining all its traditions, organization, and function as America's first responder on Earth and Off. Today, over 62 years later, UA Marines still man the no-man's land that is the southern UA border with the Andean Confederation - affectionately referred to them as "The Rot" and "El Sudor".
****
There you have it - a further peek inside the history of the Alien War universe leading up to our present year 2260.
I am sad we can't have just good ol' fashioned Jarheads running around Bug Hives - but the UAMC is the direct inheritor of their traditions, espirit de corps, and "attitude" - so I don't think I'll miss them THAT much. A big thank you to the fans who caught this and let us know - I've passed the info on to a couple other wargame manufacturers who also seem to be in violation. If you know of any other armed forces - especially German, UK, or French that have similar restrictions on name use - please let us know. We'll make sure to have a lawyer look into this in the future as well as much as that pains me! ;-)
CptJake wrote:.Copy right laws haven't changed that much and the USMC has always been particular about how their symbols and name are used.
Here is a policy letter from 1997.http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%205030.3B.pdf You want to us to believe that Tony complied with that even if he didn't comply with current procedure? If he did, he would have had approval, even if it was done a long time ago.
I submit his research wasn't that good....
BUT::::: It is a moot point, he fixed it and is on track.
Girls with guns? The "I want female IG." grunters are going to love this. Might be a smart business move....if they actually start getting kits out the door that is.
I'm not a fan of female minis. I felt the need to throw minis in there not to be misunderstood, but I have been called a misogynist more than a few times. Either way, I certainly wouldn't want the markets to be dictated by my tastes. If the people want female guard, let them have it. I'll be waiting for something more interesting.
Doesn't look too bad, but females are easily done with headswaps and maybe some adjustments in arms and legs lenght and mass...
Gear tend to be uniform regardless of sex. Thou the ones with larger chest-departments might have special issue torso-armour... (read larger size or maybe a different cut to accomodate for the non-standard body siluette. )
Sikil wrote:Doesn't look too bad, but females are easily done with headswaps and maybe some adjustments in arms and legs lenght and mass...
Gear tend to be uniform regardless of sex. Thou the ones with larger chest-departments might have special issue torso-armour... (read larger size or maybe a different cut to accomodate for the non-standard body siluette. )
Sikil wrote:Doesn't look too bad, but females are easily done with headswaps and maybe some adjustments in arms and legs lenght and mass...
Gear tend to be uniform regardless of sex. Thou the ones with larger chest-departments might have special issue torso-armour... (read larger size or maybe a different cut to accomodate for the non-standard body siluette. )
Your point is well taken in that there are alterations necessary to properly accommodate female soldiers, but I think the essence of the Sikil's statement is true as regards appearance. The combination of relatively loose fatigues, bulky body armor/helmet and combat gear means that male and female combatants in a warzone are going to look pretty darn similar. There will be some differences,, but these are mostly functional, not visual, and certainly not what would be very visible on a 28mm figure.
That said, I do prefer that sculptors take the necessary liberties to make female soldiers appear female (as long as female grunts aren't sculpted like supermodels) but the kinds of differences that make male and female figures readily recognizable at a distance in 28mm figures are definitely going to be more based on artistic license than real-life appearance.
lord_blackfang wrote:That's supposed to be a concept sketch? Looks like the doodles I did in high school, not something I'd want to show potential customers.
It's a concept sketch, not a finished drawing. It's just blocking out the general shapes/silhouette of the model.
lord_blackfang wrote:That's supposed to be a concept sketch? Looks like the doodles I did in high school, not something I'd want to show potential customers.
It's a concept sketch, not a finished drawing. It's just blocking out the general shapes/silhouette of the model.
Exactly. They threw it up so that people could critique it and mention what needs to be changed and what they'd like to stay the same. Go down the thread and people are already putting critique on it. Seems to be a lot of interest in the elbow pads, and hilariously enough, the debate of long sleeves vs rolled sleeves is back again .
Alex, I'd like to ask you if you think I'm comfortable in body armor with a full ruck? I mean, do you think men find it nice and cozy? The uniform, although designed to go under body armor, is also horribly uncomfortable. The rucks are designed already to put weight on the hips and legs, and they're still horrible. I understand the kit isn't suitable for women, but it's mostly because it isn't suitable for humans. It's thirty pounds of steel, ceramics and kevlar. Not to mention a minimum of seven full magazines, at least a gallon of water, and whatever else you need to strap to your back. And I've seen another post you made commenting on how it's degrading female combat performance, but I find it worth noting that it also degrades male combat performance as well. And as far as creating a female specific combat uniform, the percentage of females in the Army are comparable to the percentage of lefties in the Army, somewhere between ten and fifteen percent. And the Army still won't take the step to adopt an ambidexterous rifle, let alone a leftie specific variant, god forbid leftie specific grenades and all that. I just wanted you to know modern body armor is inherently uncomfortable and having unisex body armor is not some chauvanist plot to keep women down.
Back to topic:
If the people want female troops, let them have female troops. The sketch looks exactly like what one would expect a sketch of a female wearing that uniform to look like.
Sikil wrote:Doesn't look too bad, but females are easily done with headswaps and maybe some adjustments in arms and legs lenght and mass...
Gear tend to be uniform regardless of sex. Thou the ones with larger chest-departments might have special issue torso-armour... (read larger size or maybe a different cut to accomodate for the non-standard body siluette. )
No need to be rude Alex, I know you are extremely fearless sitting behind your computer screen, but you definitely could have said that in a less jerky way.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the set but I would rather prefer hard suits.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.
Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.
???
Do you know how or why? I thought the USG could not claim trademarks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT-Ah... it's a coat of arms, official business issue. Thanks for the link.
Anyways, news. They've got a preview (and by preview I mean ROUGH preview ) of the german infantry's dedicated grenade launcher. Apparently, they took the criticism to the slightly ugly underslung previous version and redesigned it from the ground up. This time round, it's basically a bigger, meaner, grenade shooting version of their main assault rifle. They're asking for opinions on the forums here.
As for my opinion, aside from the humongous spear thing on the front that's supposed to be the sight, I think they're onto a good start. It's miles ahead of the previous version at least. Hopefully they'll post up some revised pics soon...
Defiance Games
UAMC NOW SHIPPING!
Defiance Games 28mm hard plastic UAMC Marines
MARINES SHIPPING NOW!
We're thrilled to announce that the Marines are shipping! The 24 figure box set features 12 frames of parts to build 2 full squads of Marines along with 25mm plastic bases and a Marine Force File for the Alien War rules - all for just $29.95! Click here to order: UAMC Marines Set
Bugs! Bugs! Incoming!
Bugs - the scourge of mankind everywhere - are hot on the heels of the Marines. Featuring 30 Drones per box (including 30mm bases) - the Bugs will ship in mid-May.
German Panzergrenadiers are right behind them and then we'll have UAMC Hardsuits (power armor troops), Female Marines, German heavy weapons, UAMC heavy weapons, and more all in early Summer!
They look pretty good for layering and some of the edge highlighting looks decent. I just wish they'd upload pictures that are bigger than a postage stamp!
I think what I'd do is shave down the rolled up sleeves and either use greenstuff to sculpt or just a knife to scribe some sleeve lines at the wrist and then also paint up their hands like they are wearing gloves.
I think am going to get a box of these to build a small force for Infinity.
That sergeant looks so serious the way his eyes are painted
This is good though, that means they should be here soon. I live roughly 6-8 hours away from their company, so I should get mine (hopefully) soon. I probably shouldn't have bought two boxes, now I've got 54 of the little buggers (and the gunny) to paint Although I have to admit, that is a bit of a steal for $60...
EDIT: Oh, and just a bit of news I just found out. The preorder bonus that gets you the free gunny figure is almost over. However, for guys who missed the preorder on the gunny and are still wanting him, you've still got a chance to get him.
Tony wrote:
We've gone one better - in the Marine boxes is a promo code that will allow you to get a free Gunny with any order placed between now and the end of May!
(Which should cover Bugs and Germans!)
So essentially, when the bugs and germans come out, you'll have a code in the box to get a free gunny with those purchases too. At least thats what I'm seeing from this. I posted a question in the thread to ask him whether the code is in all marine boxes or only the ones that ship after the preorder. I'll edit in his answer if he responds.
Brunius wrote:Brother SRM, what whacky type of postage stamps do they sell over in your part of the world?
Just a complaint that the images they upload are a bit on the small side is all!
Here's a test model for one of the Germans:
Shipping madness continues here at Defiance Games and we will be finished getting the Marine orders out the door in the next couple days.
A ginormous THANK YOU to all of you who have ordered and made our very first product launch such a success!
But there is no rest for the wicked! A set of Marines is no good without opponents to pit them against!
First up will be the Bugs!
The Bug molds are coming together nicely and we expect to have the first production-ready parts in the next few days. As long as everything looks good the Bugs will go straight into production and when we have enough stock built up we'll release them.
And then it's onto the Germans!
Sculpt-meister Tim Barry has been refining his original sculpture to push the limits on what can be done in hard plastic with this design. We're finalizing the parts, poses, and options this week and they will be going off to molding as soon as we're done. Let us know what you think!
Considering the head on them has to take into account the helmet's size as well as the dudes noggin inside of it, I don't really see it as being altogether too much of a problem to be honest.
Glad they got rid of the diamond texture, and I hope that a painted version doesn't look too busy.
Absolutionis wrote:They made the body pudgier and the head as comically large as the USMC. They also dropped the diamond texture from the pants.
It's a step in the completely wrong direction, but it still looks nice.
A lot of people hated the diamond pattern on the forums, hence why they removed it.
As for the head size, any smaller and it would like kind of wierd I would think. They're shooting for a mix between the "heroic" and "realistic" scales, and that's probably the best medium they can get. Any smaller, and the helmet will look paper thin. You gotta remember that's more than a steel pot that guy is wearing, that's got comms and other gear in it. Add in the face mask and respirator, and I'm surprised his head isn't bigger
My main concern though is wondering if their mold will be able to handle a model this complex. If they can pull this off, they'll make my cadian guardsmen look like those little green army men from the dollar store. I'm sure a few details will be lost in the mold, there's no way they can pull off that much detail for cheaper than GW is charging. Although I would love to be proven wrong
Certain areas like the rifle and the forearms especially look amazing (to me at least) Can't wait to get some!
The heads, with helmet, seem pretty much in line with what I see from most minis manufacturers. Plus, once you put a helmet on someone, with all the padding, armor, and mask, their head is going to look very large. Plus, it's useful to keep in mind that these guys use the same "heroic" aesthetic that most 28mm minis companies (and most 15mm companies for that matter)I can cite use -- oversized heads, weapons, and other identifying details to make them visible from the normal several-foot viewing distance of your average gaming miniature.
The Diamond weave is a mesh that multiple people commented on disliking, particularly because it departed heavily from the original design.
The original concept art and the production art for reference:
Plus, German heavy weapons concept art (for a later set)
I asked Tim to show us a little more of the Panzergrenadiers. This one has the same basic body parts (toros/legs) but is holding the dedicated Grenade Launcher and has the field cap instead of the helmet.
The set will have enough helmets to outfit ALL your troops but we'll also have a variety of field caps and bare heads (both male and female). You will be able to turn this into an all-female set if you choose.
I underlined a detail that I know is very important to some of you.
Hmmmm, they cut down on the front sight a bit (that thing was enormous orginally) but I wonder if people will still complain. I'm not a fan personally, but thats what exacto knives are for
Also, really diggin the field caps. It's going to be a tough decision between the helmet and the caps, and I'm sure people are going to be excited about having enough heads for an all female squad. The way DFG is talking, they've got 2 helmet heads, 2 male field cap/bare heads, and probably 2 female field cap/bare heads as well. Should offer a good variety as well as plenty of extra cool heads for the bits box
Kanluwen wrote:I am liking the Panzergrenadier. Is that a digital render or an actual sculpted piece?
I'm actually not 100% sure if it's a 3D model with a really good material applied or a resin cast. Here's another image:
I've got to say I really do like rifle that's sort of subtly reminiscent on the G36 rifle with the grip under the sight rail. I don't know how much of that is conscious on their part and how much of that is wishful thinking on my part (I love me some G36C in Battlefield) but I really like the gun designs.
Wow with each passing shot I know I have to get these guys and maybe pick up a copy of Tomorrow's War to use these guys! I really like the marines, but these Germans are full of pure win for me.
I have to agree I love the G36 look to the weapons. They really pulled them off well. I can hardly wait to see what the sprues look like!
It's a render. Pretty impressive stuff. One of the issues with renders, though, is that it sort of leads to a mental image of a figure ten thousand times the actual size of the mini. To give an idea of scale, the rails on the UAMC rifle are about the size of finger print ridges. I'm assuming that the German rails will be similar.
I like the big renders since they really show off the nitty gritty detail we'll be painting. I am looking forward to seeing some plastic though, as that will be what makes or breaks them obviously.
Wow, the Panzergrenadiers actually look good so far. I personally think that the Marines look dire and wasn't too interested in Defiance's stuff, but the Germans may change my mind.
They need to fix those helmets. The fluting on the back extends too far down and makes the helmet look silly. Also, the detail around the goggle is way too "soft" there needs to be more definition beteen the two IMO. Otherwise they look great and I'll probably end up buying a dozen or so boxes lol.
Personally, I want to see them show what the Germans look like with the backpack attached. That's the element that really adds the heavy infantry "bulk," I think.
The problem is the posture of the figure doesn't look like it is wearing a heavy ruck. Same with the Marines. Guys with a ruck on stand a lot differently than a guy without.
Trust me, I have a tiny bit of experience in this.
CptJake wrote:The problem is the posture of the figure doesn't look like it is wearing a heavy ruck. Same with the Marines. Guys with a ruck on stand a lot differently than a guy without.
Trust me, I have a tiny bit of experience in this.
THIS!
I keep saying and saying and saying that soldiers who don't look like pack mules don't look right!
Xeno wrote:Personally, I want to see them show what the Germans look like with the backpack attached. That's the element that really adds the heavy infantry "bulk," I think.
That is going to be the 'make or break' it for me. Can't wait until all this stuff is out of the way and Tony can get to work on the hardsuits. Those are what I am really waiting for. --Loves Ma.K-- and those suits have such a good vibe going on with them.
According to their website the marines have ship and they also posted a road map of what's next:
May - Bugs
May/June - Germans
June - Marine Hardsuits
June/July - Female Marines
I hope they are able to keep such a tight schedule. I am looking forward to seeing these and seeing if this company manages to take off, which I hope it does.
If their hurdles/delays with the UAMC were a one time thing that's been squared away, then I think they can do it (as the design team could simply have moved on to working on the next kits during the delays).
My order came in today, and I must say they look really good. Unfortunately I have to go to work but when I get back tonight I'll put some pics up of the sprues, the unit's rules card (looks really cool btw) as well as anything else people want to see
While the proper PDF version hasn't been made available yet, Howard Whitehouse has been emailing the WIP version out to anyone who asks. See this thread.
AlexHolker wrote:
While the proper PDF version hasn't been made available yet, Howard Whitehouse has been emailing the WIP version out to anyone who asks. See this thread.
I just got mine today! They threw an extra sprue of marines in my box. I did not get my Gunny though. I got a sheet saying he leads from the rear and would be mailed separately.
The rules card is sweet and contains the points value and squad organization style as well as a cool WTF!?! table on the backside of the card that has random events that can happen during the game.
The sprues are great! The "bits" are packed nicely on the sprue and really use the space well with little wasted space.
They fit perfectly in the box. So perfect that my extra sprue wont fit in with the rest of the minis.
The only complaint I have is with the absent Gunny. He leads from the rear? That's a sad Gunny that is very undeserving of the rank. That's the kinda guy that catches a grenade while he is in the head.
I will post pics as I start working on them. Still not sure on a paint scheme yet. Either woodland, urban or winter night.
Received my marines today in the mail.nice work, nice details. i'm happy that there will be extra parts that i can use for my IG and vice versa. Can't wait for the panzergrenadiers to come out. i'll try to post pics of my sprues and wip marines.
Pics will be up sometime tomorrow, as I'm currently assembling several different combos to show off all the parts you get as well as some cool kitbashing with IG stuff, but I can tell you one thing right now.
Putting a catachan head and torso on a DFG marines legs and using their arms is one of the funniest looking models I've ever made. The guy's head looks like its some sort of bizzare watermellon head or something. I mean, yeah, the heads are big compared to even "normal" GW models, but compared to the slightly more realistic scale the dfg marines have, and it's friggin huge. However, just using the legs with cadian torsos looks awesome and I'll be using my spare 12 legs per box to build myself some vets for sure!
MrMoustaffa wrote:Pics will be up sometime tomorrow, as I'm currently assembling several different combos to show off all the parts you get as well as some cool kitbashing with IG stuff, but I can tell you one thing right now.
Putting a catachan head and torso on a DFG marines legs and using their arms is one of the funniest looking models I've ever made. The guy's head looks like its some sort of bizzare watermellon head or something. I mean, yeah, the heads are big compared to even "normal" GW models, but compared to the slightly more realistic scale the dfg marines have, and it's friggin huge. However, just using the legs with cadian torsos looks awesome and I'll be using my spare 12 legs per box to build myself some vets for sure!
I agree with the scale comparison 100%! These guys make cadians look HUGE! I am loving the more realistic proportions though. When I first opened them I was thinking they looked kinda small. After assembling some, however, they actually look perfect.
You could use the GW Cadian heads to make a bobblehead model with the Defiance marines!
As far as scale goes, it's worth noting that ridiculous clown proportions for IG models are only a recent thing from GW, with the catachan and cadian plastics.
Before those were released, we had an excellent range of Perry-sculpted metals for 7 different Imperial Guard regiments that were much smaller in size and without the ridiculous proportions... they looked much better next to a space marine than the current lot do.
Just think of the stuff made by DFG and other companies to be a return to the good old days rather than "small" and you'll be fine. Really, guns the size of telegraph poles and pistols the size of a model's torso are what's out of place, as soon you have a think about that for a second, it all becomes a lot easier to deal with.
Don't put GW weapons on them without a little conversion work first! I saw a lot of people do that with the mantic corporation models and it looked downright terrible.
Looking forward to the hardsuits the most, really liking the design, and would love to pick some up to go with my mantic stuff... also, since it's not an organic sculpt, the digital sculpting will probably work out well.
Wonder how well the Defiance heads will go on Mantic Corporation bodies. Have you tried a comparison scarletsquig?
Also wondering if the Wargames Factory Shock Troop heads are too big for these guys, or the Mantic Corporation dudes. Reason I am wondering is I need a lot of helmeted dudes with gasmasks/goggles etc, but no idea what fits what miniatures.
Looking forward a lot to the German dudes, they should look great.
agree 100% with not putting GW weapons on them. The weapons are almost as big as they are.
If you are planning on using these guys for IG, use them as catachans, then buy a couple of the plastic catachan command squads. These are the closest GW comes in plastic to the scale the DFG marines use (although they still lok very buff, its not as extreme) some of the heads will even work on the marines. Obviously your guys will look slightly smaller than most IG players, but they'll still look good. the bits from the catachan box work pretty well for the marines as well, and I've been using them a lot to customize my marines.
The bases that DFG uses are the same size as the GW ones, so they'll work well for your base infantry. You can only tell a difference if you look at the bottom of the base.
Most of my kitbashing involves mixing catachan and marines bits, and I think they turned out well. Just need to finish a few more and the pics will start rolling in
EDIT: fenriswulf, I'll throw a couple of the WGF greatcoat trooper heads on and see. One thing I can say though is that detail on the marines blows the WGF greatcoats out of the water.
Yeah I had thought that would be the case. The problem I am going to have is I need a bucketload of the respirator style heads which look half decent, and I can't find a good alternate design for them from other miniature suppliers.
I had thought about trying my hand at sculpting something similar to the Djanbazan (sp?) miniatures from the Haqqislam line of infinity figures, but I don't think I am quite there yet in my sculpting skills.
Ok, there's a good amount of pics. I've spoilered all of them to make it easier on slower computers. I haven't had a chance to paint these guys yet. It's been raining nonstop but I should be able to prime a squad tomorrow and get started on them. Also, some pics didn't come out right. I'm not sure if it was the lighting in the room or the camara, but these are the best I can get for now. I'll give some of these another go tomorrow and edit in better pics if I get them. If you want pics of anything I didn't post here, or want to see certain combos (I have another 20 still unassembled) PM me and I'll see what I can do. Anyways, enough jibber jabber, lets get to the pics.
First up, the rules card that comes in every box. It's basically a codex entry, except it comes with the box, giving you basic stats as well as available loadouts for your marines, along with recommended squad sizes and fireteam makeups. A cool thing I noticed is that you can choose how "experienced" each soldier is. So you can either sink the points in and make a very tough veteran squad, or you can go light on the points, and bring 2 or 3 squads of green troops, who apparently have lower accuracy. Lends itself to a lot of flexibility which should keep the game interesting
Spoiler:
On the back you have the "What the...????" tables. These special situations occur randomly throughout the game, and can be either awesome, or terrible, depending on what you roll. On the bottom, which I couldn't get a good pic of due to how it's placed on the card (stretched along the bottom) are some special rules for the marines.
No-one Left Behind: Marines will not willingly leave the battlefield without recovering all casualties, alive or dead. Semper Fi!: Once per game the player may reroll one failed die roll to rally from being pinned down or to make an Assault test or a Nerve test.
Bad table
Spoiler:
Good table
Spoiler:
Next up, some size comparisons between various minis I had laying around. My camera phone was very fussy, and certain pictures just wouldn't come out how I wanted. These are the best I can get for now...
Two marines with a commissar
Spoiler:
A terrible quality pic of a WGF greatcoat next to a DFG marine. The marines are much higher quality, and better proportioned. The WGF greatcoats are almost a head taller than them though
Spoiler:
A comparison shot between a Cadian, a DFG marine, and a catachan
Spoiler:
Now for some kitbashes. I found what works best are bits from the plastic catachan command squad. They're close enough in size to be roughly appropriate for the marines, and have gear that matches their look. Cadian equipment like grenade belts and knives are hit and miss, some look good, some look meh. Don't even bother putting the older catachan parts on them though, they are comically oversized and do not match the marines at all. However, backpacks from both ranges work well with the marines provided you're willing to fiddle with them
A veteran Sarge I made for my guard army using a spare set of the marine legs. They fit GW guardsmen really well and look pretty good.
Spoiler:
Some pretty heavily kitbashed shotgun vets I made using parts I have laying around. Gun arms are from WGF greatcoats, torsos and heads are GW, and legs are DFG marines. Since you get an extra 12 legs per box, this was a no brainer to try and I have to say I really like the look both with cadian and catachan torsos.
Spoiler:
This squad of DFG marines all have GW backpacks, aside from the SSW gunners and their assistants. They look really good provided you don't use the ones with giant swords.
Spoiler:
Finally, a kitbashed Sgt. for my marines, using a head, torso, and various bits from the catachan command box
Spoiler:
And for kicks and giggles, here's why you don't use regular catachan heads and WGF greatcoat heads on the marines
frozenwastes wrote:Thanks for the pictures. Those Catachan heads are way, way oversized.
I really like how the UAMC are holding rifles properly for once. They actually look like real soldiers.
One thing that's hard to tell, is that in that pic I have of the 13 marine squad, you can get a really surprising amount of variation out of that one sprue. All those guys in the pic? They all have the same torso and head, just placed at different angles. You can also change the angles of their arms quite a bit, hence the guys holding their weapons at ease, reloading them, clearing jams, etc.
For example, every SSW machine gunner you see are using the same right arm. By mixing the left arms that I used, and fiddling with the angle, i have guys that appear to be running, guys firing, clearing jams, one guy firing his GL, etc. Granted, there's only so much you can do with 5 different weapon arms, but that's what kitbashing is for
I love it. I wasn't a big fan of the helmet design, but those patrol caps have me sold. I'll probably pick up a set just because-- if Defiance keeps putting stuff of this quality level, I may become a repeat customer!
When I finally get my Tau finished I am going to have to use these guys for my guard. Seeing them assembled is awesome and I think they put Cadians to shame.
These rules look interesting, and while I haven't read the playtest rules yet I really like the inclusion of rules in every box. It makes updating armies with new units very easy if that's the route they continue to take. Thanks for all the comparison pictures!
yeah the heads difference was crazy when I first tried it. It's not that the DFG marines are tiny (theyre the same height as a cadian) its that the more realistic proportions make them look skinnier, especially the legs. A cadian helmet head and a marine helmet are roughly the same size, but I don't know why you'd ever want to put a cadian head on these guys
The main problem is that all the catachan sculpts except the command box are rediculously big (they dwarf spess mehreens) And as the picture above shows, it makes kitbashing them.... difficult to say the least. I may try putting a pair of catachan arms on a marine though just to see how funny it is.
That said, if you've got mostly cadian bits or the catachan command box, kitbashing is quite easy between the two, and many of my marines are sporting grenades and other misc. kit from the gw boxes (basically anything that isnt a sword, has a skull on it, or the eagle emblem)
I really like this kit, and if you're on the fence, get a box. The quality is great for the price, and the box gives you enough marines for roughly two squads, so you'll be able to start playing the game the moment the rules come out.
The rules themselves aren't included in the box, though they will be free on the site. What came with the box is a force sheet with the force composition, point cost, and special rules on one side and the special event tables on the other.
Here's a quick explanation of the rules:
At the start of each round you roll a d6 againt an activation chart based on the type of communication and squad training (professional or non). The role determines how many "elements" you move, where "element" is a discrete unit of soldiers; you can change element size on the fly. Normally, this is "Move (x) elements + any element lead by a 'leader'," where any non-com or officer counts as a leader. This makes leaders very important, obviously, an highly professional forces like the USMC and Germans become very flexible in that regard. If you roll a 6 you get a special event (a.k.a. "What The . . .?!), where you only move one element, then role to see if the event is Good, Bad, or Other. The first two are generally force dependent, while the Other category is for environmental or scenario dependent effect.
As a side note, there are effects that can temporarily or permanently lower a squad's communication type; partly, this is because the game assumes that there is electronic warfare and such going on in the background interfering with command and control.
Shooting is a matter of rolling vs the element's Combat Value (CV, usually 2-4, the higher the better) vs a chart, rolling a number of dice based on the weapons being used (the default assault rifle rolls 2 dice at relatively close range and 1 die beyond, while the Squad Support Weapon rolls a variable number based on whether you moved or spent an action setting up the weapon). Any hits are then resolved based on the hit soldier's level of experience and armor worn vs the weapon being used (specifically, it's "Impact" value). The game assumes that more experience soldiers are better are taking advantage of cover, reducing their profile, and reacting to incoming. Soldiers who are Wounded or Out of Action can be treated by a Medic, plus they must make a CV check on the next "What The" role (their side or the enemies) to see if their condition improves, stabilizes, or worsens). Out of Action soldiers are likely to die unless treated by a Medic. Wounded soldiers act at reduced effectiveness.
Winning the game means earning Victory Points for achieving objectives. You LOSE Victory Points if your soldiers die or you are driven from the battlefield and leave them behind; treating your wounded is important in this game since no human force sees their soldiers as being disposable cannon fodder (or, at least, the soldiers themselves certainly don't!). One of the advantages the Bugs have is that they don't care about their wounded (and usually just eat them, anyway); added to them having a Hive Mind and usually always acting makes for a relentless, attack-based force. Plus, Bugs aren't all that fragile -- they are armored as well as Marine, fight at CV 4, and hit hard in close combat.
Unfortunately, I can't personally tell you how well the rules play since I haven't had much time for wargaming lately. The other playtesters (a couple of whom have posted here) could tell you more.
Fenriswulf wrote:Wonder how well the Defiance heads will go on Mantic Corporation bodies. Have you tried a comparison scarletsquig?
Also wondering if the Wargames Factory Shock Troop heads are too big for these guys, or the Mantic Corporation dudes. Reason I am wondering is I need a lot of helmeted dudes with gasmasks/goggles etc, but no idea what fits what miniatures.
Pig Iron heads and West Wind heads should work well as both are a bit smaller than GW proportions.
Here's my 2 figures that i have built and painted. One is a Marine with extra pouches, the other one is a kitbash IG w/ extra pouches. It would give you an idea how cool these minis are.
I think it's my only option. I can cut off the part on the side of the helmet, and smooth them down if I need to. Otherwise I don't think I will have the patience to sculpt what I need, nor the know how on how to cast them up for myself.
Edit: They have smooth helmet versions. Easily done then.
Yeah you get 2 of the female head tabs (12 total) 2 tabs of male heads (another 12, they havent shown those yet) and 3 tabs of the helmet heads (so 18 there). Overall 42 heads total, with a decent variety. Only problem is you will not have enough to do an entirely female squad with just the heads in the box, so remember that if you're wanting an all woman unit. Technically you could get around this with a few of the respirator helmets, but I imagine this will still be sad news for certain people.
The preorder bonus for these guys are 12 "hive" bases with cool stuff like corpses, bones, and bits of kit from their victims. Pretty cool looking. You also get 30 bugs per box (so they're a buck apiece essentially) I know they've posted the tentative release date for these guys, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Tony's mentioned that he's going to be much more cautious about mentioning release dates for figures after the whole marines bit, so hopefully he won't say a date until he's absolutely positively certain they're ready.
CptJake wrote:Actual lady who modeled for the Goiter Gals:
Not quite. The stub extending from the head is likely a cylinder with a rounded edge from the look (and common sense) and not what you're alluding too. It's simply longer than the GW style one (likely due to a bigger chest chavity for the head on the torso).
Are the panzergrenadiers going to be the same plastic as the marines or are they more like restic? The UAMC are some of my favorite sci-fi minis, but I think they'd lose a lot of their luster if they came out in a material besides plastic.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Are the panzergrenadiers going to be the same plastic as the marines or are they more like restic? The UAMC are some of my favorite sci-fi minis, but I think they'd lose a lot of their luster if they came out in a material besides plastic.
IIRC, DFG said that they tested the first Bugs to make sure plastic glue worked on them. That would suggest that it's proper plastic even if it's not on proper sprues, but you'd be better off waiting for the first Bug customers to get theirs so we know for sure.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Are the panzergrenadiers going to be the same plastic as the marines or are they more like restic? The UAMC are some of my favorite sci-fi minis, but I think they'd lose a lot of their luster if they came out in a material besides plastic.
What makes you think they would be in anything other than plastic?
They've come out and stated it will be a plastic resin blend that they've titled "Hard Plastic." Although I find the name Hard Plastic confusing, in that it sounds like it's plastic, but they wanted to avoid the stigma of other failed plastic resin blends, Finecast comes to mind. They've were talking about trying to get a blend that was plastic glue friendly, I haven't heard anything one way or another about how it went following testing. They're planning on using Hard Plastic on all sets from here on out.
Hmm, the actual UAMC with the caps look a lot better than I first thought with the helmets. I'd really like to see the Panzergrenadiers with their packs on though. They look good now but I think the packs really help add a sense of heavy to the concept art that I'd like to see on the model itself.
I am with you, kenshin620. As far as I'm concerned, hard plastic means injection moulded polystyrene (like Airfix kits or the box you show).
I hope it is made clear when they are sold because the plastic/resin mix will have different properties the styrene, even if you can get away with using poly cement to stick them together.
noneoftheabove0 wrote:They've come out and stated it will be a plastic resin blend that they've titled "Hard Plastic."
But hard plastic is usually a term associated with Wargaming plastic as opposed to "soft plastic"
example
Spoiler:
That is correct. Hard plastic differentiates from soft plastic. This is especially pertinent for old-school gamers whose first exposure to plastic figures was the soft plastic 1/72 (20mm) figures from companies like ESCI, Revell Airfix (their other models are hard plastic, but the mini figs were soft) That plastic is more difficult to glue and paint doesn't adhere as well. These kind of figures are still quite popular among some historical wargamers because they are really cheapr. Often 50 figures for under 10 bucks. New sets are released each year and most of the sets (thougn not all) reviewed here are soft plastic http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx
Recently Krylon Fusion and other plastic specific spray paints have made painting soft figures easier and the results more durable (still can only be glued with superglue though), but wargames companies still go out of their way to make it clear when their figures are of hard plastic which is far easier to glue (can usually use plastic solvent glues), make modifications to, and paint.
I just got my marines, assembled a few, and showed up at the local store. Everyone at my FLGS is hoping they'll carry the line, because they are amazing. I personally will scrap my catachans and cadians in favour of these. I'd go so far as use panzergrenadiers as stormtroopers, fill up my army with female marines, and buy the hardsuits just because they look promising.
If anyone is interested, I've been posting my take on the Bugs' background, biology, and so on over on the Defiance Forums. Take a look, see what you think, and comment here or there. I've been itching for the Bugs for a long time, so much so that my one claim to fame is that I named the creepy little bastards (yep, you can blame "Hudson's Bugs" on me).
I think it's more about costs .. usually 10's of thousands to get molds made for styrene plastic models. But, plastic is usually a better material for modeling and stuff and lots of us want plastic over metal, so it's cheaper to do the resin-plastic instead.. lower mold costs so small companies can afford it, and the gamer gets a model that's fun to put together since it's still plastic
I personally like metal better for regular figures.. but bigger kits or figures with tons of little parts need to be plasticy for me
I really, really want their future releases not to suck. Even if they need super glue, this would not turn me off of them, as long as the sculpts look great. The chance to finally have genders almost equally represented in a force would be awesome.
Also, wouldn't it be fun if a faction had their female box first? Instead of being male first for every core set? I know it's probably easier to sculpt guys first and then go off that frame to make the female version, but still...
Supposedly, the conventional wisdom is that female minis don't sell well, and even then they need to be cheesecake. I'm not so sure about that myself. I think some of it is that no one really produces full lines of non-cheesecake female minis so there's no real reason to buy them except just to paint. On the other hand, who wants to gamble tens of thousands of dollars on a line that won't sell if the conventional wisdom turns out to be true?
That's the nice thing about restic: the gamble is more along the lines of hundreds of dollars, rather than tens of thousands.
As a side note, I can't wait to get the Bugs I ordered. The first thing I'm going to do is hack them apart and see how the material cuts and carves compared the polystyrene.
The Marines seem to be plastic. The material looks and feels like it. But I used superglue for all mine so I cant say for sure. Plus I'm pretty sure they say on the box they're plastic. I'll double check tomorrow though.
The Marines are in plastic. They decided to switch to restic after the massive delays they suffered with the marines. Hopefully after they are more established they can go back and redo some of the more basic sets to come in hard plastic proper.
Xeno wrote:Supposedly, the conventional wisdom is that female minis don't sell well, and even then they need to be cheesecake. I'm not so sure about that myself. I think some of it is that no one really produces full lines of non-cheesecake female minis so there's no real reason to buy them except just to paint. On the other hand, who wants to gamble tens of thousands of dollars on a line that won't sell if the conventional wisdom turns out to be true?
That's the nice thing about restic: the gamble is more along the lines of hundreds of dollars, rather than tens of thousands.
The "conventional wisdom" is nonsense. Remember, Games Workshop is a company willing to devote nine sprues to five different Space Marine Dreadnoughts, or the equivalent of two sprues to limited edition Skull Rocks. If they are unwilling to even find out if a combined HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support kit for an undersupported army and an undersupported half the population might be 1/9th as popular as the Dreadnought or 1/2 as popular as their limited edition Skull Rocks, they are either cowards or bigots.
So the Panzergrenadiere are released in restic, too? Bummer. I´ll still probably buy them and restic is better then metal imho but plastic is my absolute favorite. We´ll see.
According to Tony, the Germans will include four one piece models, one will be a prone machine gunner and the other three are casualty models. In addition to a boat load of heads including male, female and helmeted, two types of torsos, four different legs and four rifle carrying varients, a grenade launcher, a machinegun, a panzerfaust and a carbine. The great thing about the resin/plastic blend is that they can include more variety in any given box, and it looks like they are capitalizing on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, that's a list of different parts, not a grand total. It's supposed to be enough for 16 models plus the bonus stuff.
Dont forget that there should be enough packs in the box this time to outfit everyone but the 4 one piece figures.
As for this restic material. tony says its similar to what mantic uses for their corporation troopers i.e. Super glue only. Other than that, it should work just like plastic. He says its drillable, file able, flexible enough to not be brittle but not to the point where its soft, etc. Should have much better detail than the marines were capable of with plastic. We'll see when the bugs come out though. They'll be a good "litmus test" for what to expect with the germans.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Weren't we supposed to be in the pre-order phase for the Germans by this week, too?
You expected the Germans to stick to the schedule? What made you think the Germans would be a punctual and orderly release, like the running of a well-engineered machine?
Maybe a bit. The marines turned me on so much that I decided to evacuate my GWIG infantry models (and tanks) and replace them with DFG models. Seeing as I don't want to pay for shipping every time I order a single box, I was hoping they would stick to their updated road map.
I'm not complaining, I can be understanding, I just like their product so far and want to see more. Competition can only make this hobby better, not worse.
Thought you guys might like to see this. It's not my figs/sale, but it's a really good combo of Defiance marines bodies and legs with GW arms and pig iron heads
It's WAY better than the marine one. He invested in a tripod, and the video is greatly improved because of it. No real extreme closeups of bugs, but from what I could tell in the video, this new material gives them much improved detail over the plastic marines.
not sure I like the paint job on that combo. the hands or gloves especially. Although I do like the pig iron heads, the hands just seem enormous in that combo, as well.
I do hope the Germans come out before the end of summer. Although with the GW drop of new stuff coming soon, later might be better for my finances.
insaniak wrote:Yay for the continuing trend of presenting promo videos instead of just giving us images we can look at.
Completely with you. No matter how good a video is, the resolution is never good enough to see the fine details on a mini. Hell, even the best videos are still someone mumbling about things that are completely self evident (these heads can be used on hero or leader models .... umm ... they'll fit a variety of manufacturers' minis ... ummm) while clumbsily trying to hold a piece close enough to the camera to get some detail but not so close as to throw off the focus. And is it just me, or is it kind of wierd seeing someone's thumbs that close up? A series of closeups would nearly always be the better way to go. You can then take your time with the pieces, examine them at your liesure without trying to pause it right at the moment where the camera is about to focus on their fingers instead. By the way, not just railing against this particular video, but the entire unboxing experience has always been odd to me.
Vaguely related: Is it just me or does it seem like the production value on the new GW teaser videos look exactly as good as local used car dealership commercials?
I too would love some up close high definition pics. The quality of the video has improved dramtically from the marine one, but I think a good idea if they want to keep doing these is maybe splice in close up photos of each piece while he explains it instead of trying to hold it up to the camera. And by pics, I dont mean renders, I mean actual pictures of some of the parts showing off detail and what not. Then once he's done with a pic he can pull out other minis to show scale, potential poses, etc.
MrMoustaffa wrote:...but I think a good idea if they want to keep doing these is maybe splice in close up photos of each piece while he explains it instead of trying to hold it up to the camera.
A better idea would be to just post pics instead of a video
Have to admit, that was a pretty good troll post they did when they started that article. Gave me a good laugh right after I got done thinking"there's no way after all that hype over a free PDF they'd charge for it"
Defiance Games wrote: We know the Hobby Games community has been waiting with baited breath for this momentous date! The rumor mill has run rampant with speculation on the upcoming rules! The leading rumor was that pre-orders would start this day...to be followed by the official release next weekend. The rumors also claim that this is to be a bloated, over-priced rules set that you'll just have to live with. Well, we're here to tell you that the rumors were WRONG! Releasing TOMORROW! FREE! ALIEN WAR!
In a time when gamers have come to accept that a rules set must be a bloated, over-priced volume handed down without consultation, to be followed without question, we thought we'd do something different. We thought we'd give you a set of rules to test, and see if you like them. We thought we'd open up the process of development to a wider audience and listen to what people had to say. For the last year we've had gamers from three continents playing these rules and adding their suggestions. And tomorrow we are offering it to you, free. Play it, see what you think. If you are interested in contributing to it, that's what we'd like. We won't promise to use every suggestion (and we aren't going back to step one, either!) but if you'll play it and let us know what you think, we'll have a better game at the end of it all. The Alien War rules - a FREE 31 page illustrated PDF showcasing the hard-hitting, realistic nature of ground combat in the 23rd century. Tomorrow...
However, it wasn't professional in the slightest. I know these guys are wargamers themselves, and love that, as they're very relate-able and seem to listen to the community. But, tempting fate with the biggest boy in the business may not be the best move.
That said, I can't wait to see what changes were made from the test rules and see what this game is like. I've got plenty of minis to try it as it stands, and once germans release I'll have two armies ready to go. Might be the time to try and get a few friends into wargaming. There's no way they'd play 40k with me with prices the way they are, but $30-$60 and you've got everything you need isn't bad at all... especially since the rules will be free.
Anyways FRP games has quite a few pre orders up. Most of them are widely inaccurate in terms of dates. But theres quite a few interesting units. Though I get the feeling half of these arent really "real", just some weird mix ups
28mm Sci-Fi - Alien War: Alien Bugs (30)
PreOrder (Est. July, 2012)
Price: $29.95 $26.95
Add to Order
28mm Sci-Fi - Alien War: Female Marines (24)
PreOrder (Est. July, 2012)
Price: $29.95 $26.95
Add to Order
The numbers are right for the Hudson's Bugs, female Marines and Panzergrenadiers, but I couldn't say for the others. I'd certainly hope DFG is going to put more than four bikes in a box, and charging heavy infantry prices for the Sequoia light infantry seems a bit rough.
Brother SRM wrote:I think that's an optimistic number of items for July right there! Cool sounding items though; I look forward to seeing some.
Especially since we are almost halfway through and can't get a solid fix on the Germans, even as a pre-order. Good thing I am in way over my head, otherwise I would still visit their page every day, hoping to give them sweet, sweet money.
In the past I was very critical of Defiance. However, I am very pleased with these developments.
The new bugs look good. I was afraid that they would be expensive, as I heard they would not plastic. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they are quite cheap.
kenshin620 wrote:They technically are plastic, just not the Hard Plastic
Yeah, but "technically" ain't worth gak. Finecast is technically a plastic, but that doesn't stop it being more expensive, slower to mass produce, more prone to flaws and more fragile than proper plastic.
The important bit here is that with the help of Troll Forged Miniatures, Defiance Games is making not-proper-plastic miniatures that possess at least one of the superior qualities of proper plastic: the price.
kenshin620 wrote:They technically are plastic, just not the Hard Plastic
Yeah, but "technically" ain't worth gak. Finecast is technically a plastic, but that doesn't stop it being more expensive, slower to mass produce, more prone to flaws and more fragile than proper plastic.
The important bit here is that with the help of Troll Forged Miniatures, Defiance Games is making not-proper-plastic miniatures that possess at least one of the superior qualities of proper plastic: the price.
Let me assure you, Finecast *is* cheaper than metal. Otherwise, GW wouldn't be moving over to casting with it. Luckily they pass those savings onto us. Oh, wait, no. I meant "themselves".
So I guess whenever Defiance says something, add two months?
So whenever Defiance sets a deadline, ignore them. They've only ever met one deadline, and that was the release of the rules the next day. I tried to convince them to give people a heads up before they reach a deadline that they know they're going to miss, but that obviously didn't take.
I'm hoping my bugs show up soon, but having been on their side of the fence I know it takes hella long to make stuff :( Better to just say "coming soon" and leave out real dates
Basically, when they say a date, give up on any hope of it coming out by then, and then tack on a month or two for good measure.
Now, whether their quality will matchup with their longer than projected development time remains to be seen. The UAMC marines were alright quality wise, but ultimately were nothing that jaw dropping (guns and heads were pretty well done, legs were very soft by comparison) I haven't bought any of the bugs, as they just aren't my style, but when the Panzergrenadiers go on preorder I'll probably order two boxes. That will be the make or break moment for me. If they're awesome, I'll be buying stuff from them for a long time. If not, well, I'm not exactly rich, and I'll have to spend my money elsewhere...
And yet they did it again. They said they would have major announcements in the next ten days. They could have just said "upcoming." And don't get me wrong, I want to buy from them.
It's the rushing on to new stuff before the old stuff is properly out.
Suposedly the bugs are cast and in house and just need boxing up, so why not dedicate all your companies time to packing boxes and getting the pre-orders out (and then boxes to ship to retail)
It would be different if all they needed to do was comission a sculptor but (I think) that's done in house too, as casting will be soon as they have machines coming in (great),
but again i'd say take the week or 2 full time, or however long is needed to box stuff and fullfill preorders as fast as possible (rather than playing with the new toys and designing new sculpts)
I agree. Although I didn't preorder any bugs, I think rewarding those that had faith enough in your product to give you money before seeing any is paramount to good service.
You're right about the dates, getting a company up to speed can be a challenge, especially if they are juggling another job at the same time while this one makes enough profit.
I just want my female marines. (Nothing fishy, I just want a modern force)
Also, there's supposedly going to be pics up of the germans "today" as well as information for 3 (I"m not making this up) sets that will be launching within the next month.
Guess all we can do now is wait and see what DFG posts in a few hours. Looking foward to seeing the Germans in the flesh (plastic) and what else they've been up to during this whole time.
This has already been posted in the Trollforged thread, but is worth reposting here
Defiance Games has taken on Ed Fortae (Trollforged Miniatures) as a (part) Owner, who will be doing their casting in house using his spincastable plastic (he's the one who cast the bugs)
I like both of those. The German troops made a great transition to reality and the if the hard suit does the same (and doesn't cost a fortune) i'll have to pick some up.
Depending on reviews from people in this thread and hopefully a couple more photos of the finished models the Panzergrenadiers might end up becoming my Stormtrooper/Karskin squad.
If I'd seen the UAMC before hand I might not have purchased any IG infantry at all. $1/model? That price is right.
Pricing will be $29.99 for the hardsuits, with 8 in a box. Should be loads of options, but I'm not sure what.
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plastictrees wrote:Germans are still horrible. Totally incompetent translation of the concept from the start.
Hard suit looks like a fun kit, looking forward to seeing the finished model.
Eh, if you say so, but it seems like a pretty good translation to me. The major issue is, and also has been, the neck - too little armor. However, the head is separate so, for those who wish, it can be modified with some filing down and a touch of green stuff.
For the record, that second image is the reference sheet produced by the concept artist.
The only thing that seems to have been lost was bulk, which does make the model look a bit lanky. The only other unsettling detail is the drop from the torso to the shoulders, I hope that is just a screw up in gluing them on.
I wonder if the neck looks vulnerable simply because the part's being temporarily held in place by a lump of blu-tak and is thus a little higher than intended? Regardless, as it is separate, looks pretty easy to lower it by filing the bottom of the neck joint a bit.
Re the low crotch, I'd assumed this represented some crotch armour, vital if you were planning on having kids
insaniak wrote:Ok, so the elongated torso and stubby legs was at least a direct match for the concept art... it's just a bad concept, rather than bad execution, then
Look at the armor again, that groin plate is whats giving the impression he's got tiny legs. If you look where his belt is, it's at about the right level. I think it's supposed to be an elongated plate to guard the groin area. Reminds me almost of a catcher's chest plate or the heavy vest bomb defusal teams wear.
Also, don't modern bulletproof vests that the US marine corps wear have a long groin plate that comes down similar to this one?
That said, I could be completely wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. But I love the panzer grenadiers, so take everything I say with a shakerfull of salt
In response to the long neck and sloping shoulders comment here's a quick photoshop job that dropped the head and raised the arms. it is rather poorly done but i think it slightly improves the heft of the model. A larger pack like the concept art would be nice but i think these models have promise. (please please please ignore the waste area. rather than try to rebuild the lost armour and belt details i just smudged the grey about to fill.)
wana10 wrote:In response to the long neck and sloping shoulders comment here's a quick photoshop job that dropped the head and raised the arms. it is rather poorly done but i think it slightly improves the heft of the model. A larger pack like the concept art would be nice but i think these models have promise. (please please please ignore the waste area. rather than try to rebuild the lost armour and belt details i just smudged the grey about to fill.)
That should be easy for a modeler to do, at least to raise the arms. As for the added bulk around the collar, that's what Greenstuff is for I guess.
Of course, one thing to think about, these guys are not "heroic" scale. They are meant to be more "realistic" in scale, which makes for much more slender models. Granted, if they were gonna go chunky on any model, it should have been this one. I would have loved bulkier grenadiers to give them a more imposing stance compared to the marines
I thinking of using the marines as my Imperial Guardsmen, and to keep the aesthetics the same, use the Hardsuits as Marine Allies, if their mounted on 25mm bases, if their mounted larger then no go,
MrMoustaffa wrote:Look at the armor again, that groin plate is whats giving the impression he's got tiny legs. If you look where his belt is, it's at about the right level. I think it's supposed to be an elongated plate to guard the groin area. Reminds me almost of a catcher's chest plate or the heavy vest bomb defusal teams wear.
Wht makes it look wrong is that the pants go into the bottom of that groin plate. If it's supposed to be an elongated plate that protrudes below his actual groin (which introduces whole levels of impracticality as a combat uniform) the pants would still be following his legs. As it is, he's either got very short legs, or he's wearing hip-hop pants.
Also, don't modern bulletproof vests that the US marine corps wear have a long groin plate that comes down similar to this one?
Some do, yes. But it's a flap hanging down the front, rather than something incorporated into their pants that pushes them halfway down their thighs.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Look at the armor again, that groin plate is whats giving the impression he's got tiny legs. If you look where his belt is, it's at about the right level. I think it's supposed to be an elongated plate to guard the groin area. Reminds me almost of a catcher's chest plate or the heavy vest bomb defusal teams wear.
Wht makes it look wrong is that the pants go into the bottom of that groin plate. If it's supposed to be an elongated plate that protrudes below his actual groin (which introduces whole levels of impracticality as a combat uniform) the pants would still be following his legs. As it is, he's either got very short legs, or he's wearing hip-hop pants.
Also, don't modern bulletproof vests that the US marine corps wear have a long groin plate that comes down similar to this one?
Some do, yes. But it's a flap hanging down the front, rather than something incorporated into their pants that pushes them halfway down their thighs.
Ah, good catch, didn't notice that
And yeah brother SRM, I don't think they've ever been able to figure out how to do a pointing arm. The greatcoat troopers back when they had WGF had arms just like these and I hated them just as much as the pointing arm on the germans Oh well, at least everything else looks good.
The Germans will be $29.99 for 20. Also, the hardsuits are mounted on 40mm bases; they should be a bit bigger than a Space Marine, based on a size comparison between a Defiance marine and Space Marine. The hardsuits should be properly scaled with the marines.
Saxon wrote:The arm that is pointing is far, far too long.
I'm not sure if it's too long or not, but why oh why did they have to go with the stupid looking thumbs up pointing pose. It looked awkward and terrible on WF Greatcoats and it looks terrible here.
I really want to like these guys and I kind of do, but I think alot of folks are going to be wanting to see the final sprues on these.
Xeno wrote:The Germans will be $29.99 for 20. Also, the hardsuits are mounted on 40mm bases; they should be a bit bigger than a Space Marine, based on a size comparison between a Defiance marine and Space Marine. The hardsuits should be properly scaled with the marines.
I think I'm going to have the local store bring me in a box-- they were able to bring in the marines, so they'll probably be able to bring these in as well.
For $1.50 a miniature, they are really, really solid. Current local retail for Cadians come out to about $3.50 a miniature. So less than half the price, and a way, way less cartoony aesthetic.
And if I end up not liking the groin plate being so long, that's an easy conversion to remove it.
Their site is not, I think, the most optimized. I keep waiting a long time for images to load or to bounce from page to page. I think you just have to be patient. Or PM me your email so I can send them to you,
frozenwastes wrote:For $1.50 a miniature, they are really, really solid. Current local retail for Cadians come out to about $3.50 a miniature. So less than half the price, and a way, way less cartoony aesthetic.
And if I end up not liking the groin plate being so long, that's an easy conversion to remove it.
The marines were too much work to salvage regardless of price but these guys will look decent once the Fedayeen helmets and hipster crotches are fixed, so they're a decent proposition. The hardsuits similarly will need their torsos de-bloated and armholes de-distended at minimum but seem fair value in spite of that.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Their site is not, I think, the most optimized. I keep waiting a long time for images to load or to bounce from page to page. I think you just have to be patient. Or PM me your email so I can send them to you,
Having looked at their site code, that is, I think, a gross understatement. But they're hardly unique in having problems with PDFs not loading properly directly into web browsers. When it happens, just right-click and choose "Save link as..." then open that once it downloads.
I was trying to be polite, I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry than make the most exquisite site in existence.
Maybe they listened to some of the criticism that said the pants looked too tight to allow for ease of movement.
Concerning the hardsuit, they look pretty much like the concept art, it is the first time I hear someone looking for a way to slim them down. Wouldn't they look like terminators at this point?
That guy on the ground clearly looks like he has the top part of a Darth Vader helmet on...
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Concerning the hardsuit, they look pretty much like the concept art, it is the first time I hear someone looking for a way to slim them down. Wouldn't they look like terminators at this point?
The original concept art was nice and sleek. The reference orthographics made concessions to realism by adding some bulk and separating the wearer's upper arms from the suit's. The renders make it positively obese, with a gigantic fat roll around its waist, and the wearer's arms have been dislocated to shove them back fully inside the suit arms - but the enlarged armholes remain. There are a bunch of lesser issues such as the height of the head ridge and the electric breadknives of doom but those are my major complaints.
I'll give you the breadknives. Aside from a shotgun, what would make a good close quarters weapon? I know a guy on the DFG forums keeps asking for those.
Looking at the concept art and the render, I think I somehow see the arm things. I hope there is still time for those to be somewhat corrected.
The fat roll, heck, we all have it, we should feel right at home. ;-)
Mathieu Raymond wrote:I'll give you the breadknives. Aside from a shotgun, what would make a good close quarters weapon?
As I've said before, if a hardsuit is going to have a CCW, it should be one that plays to its strengths. The UAMC hardsuit is heavily built with poor dexterity, so give it something like a prybar or an ice axe - something you can use to simply smash obstacles and enemies. The current weapon isn't going to survive more than a single hit.
So, on their facebook page they've posted there's also a new edge force about to be released. The Aleutian Swamp worm (yes that is what they're calling it) I'm guessing this was the edge force they were hinting about on the forums a few weeks ago. Apparently, we'll be seeing painted plastics in a week.
Which means they'll be out sometime next year probably
At least they aren't zombies. Still not a real force, though. One animal was okay, so you could have your Marines ride in and save the colonists from a Bug attack, but adding a second so soon is just redundant. They don't have the brains to be a compelling protagonist, and they don't have the technology to be a credible threat without the rules writer cheating in their favour.
People are really quite good at killing animals - we've hunted species to extinction by accident armed with little more than sharp sticks. Stick us on a new world where we don't have to worry about the ecological impact with something stupid enough to pick a fight, and we're more than capable of exterminating the entire species.
True that, Alex. I'd have much rather preferred an intelligence-capable species (to differentiate them from humans), which could have grown not into a core set, but at least something else than a biosphere set.
Some kind of pneumatic hammer (more like a jackhammer than a proper hammer) would make sense, if they are meant to crack fortifications. A buzzsaw to slice through bulkheads for ship-to-ship combat?
AlexHolker wrote:At least they aren't zombies. Still not a real force, though. One animal was okay, so you could have your Marines ride in and save the colonists from a Bug attack, but adding a second so soon is just redundant. They don't have the brains to be a compelling protagonist, and they don't have the technology to be a credible threat without the rules writer cheating in their favour.
People are really quite good at killing animals - we've hunted species to extinction by accident armed with little more than sharp sticks. Stick us on a new world where we don't have to worry about the ecological impact with something stupid enough to pick a fight, and we're more than capable of exterminating the entire species.
Second? Are you counting the bugs as the first animal? Because they're meant to be a much more threatening force like the tyranids or the zerg, not some local insect. Supposedly hudsons bugs are all over the galaxy
MrMoustaffa wrote:Second? Are you counting the bugs as the first animal? Because they're meant to be a much more threatening force like the tyranids or the zerg, not some local insect. Supposedly hudsons bugs are all over the galaxy
They're fine as an invasive species writ large, remarkable for their tenacity, but they can't pass as an existential threat like the Tyranids. Nor should they, because a lack of motivation is pretty much the only reason not to jump straight to total war, with humanity setting aside its petty differences in favour of unmaking the Bug menace.
In the current timeline, the Bugs are regarded as nothing more than a particularly annoying pest. The damned things are everywhere and they're a serious threat to the under-armed and unprepared, but not to a military force with some decent backup. However, there are also technologically advanced Bugs capable of posing a real threat to a human military force. According to Tony, the Bugs are not a natural species -- someone out there engineered them and armed them, and the Bugs humanity has encountered are just the first wave.
Xeno wrote:In the current timeline, the Bugs are regarded as nothing more than a particularly annoying pest. The damned things are everywhere and they're a serious threat to the under-armed and unprepared, but not to a military force with some decent backup. However, there are also technologically advanced Bugs capable of posing a real threat to a human military force. According to Tony, the Bugs are not a natural species -- someone out there engineered them and armed them, and the Bugs humanity has encountered are just the first wave.
And I still don't like that idea. I'd rather see a six-limbed, tauric race wearing hard plate armour (like Stormtroopers wear in Star Wars) that is reminiscent of a "Tech Bug" look than just straight "Tech Bugs".
No, no art for Heavy Weapons, or Command group, as well as no renders of female marines. There was art for an all-female unit of hardsuits, as a edge set, but haven't heard from them in a while.
September, supposedly. Which might mean, which do I prefer: finally revamping my IG completely, or completing my dark angels company and adding to my chaos army?
MrMoustaffa wrote:So, on their facebook page they've posted there's also a new edge force about to be released. The Aleutian Swamp worm (yes that is what they're calling it) I'm guessing this was the edge force they were hinting about on the forums a few weeks ago. Apparently, we'll be seeing painted plastics in a week.
Which means they'll be out sometime next year probably
I am really looking forward to this release. I wonder if some hentai fans will be happy as well.
But I would really wish some of the current things would be out now instead of more previews for more things. Do we even have art for Heavy Weapons?
They posted the USMC machinegun on facebook a few months back:
and the USMC missile launcher was posted on the old forum before it disintegrated, though I neglected to save the picture. I'll see if I can get them to repost the image.
Oh, and the German heavy weapon pic I've posted before:
The walker concept looks great (very flyingdebris style) but since everyone at Defiance wears clownshoes I guess I shouldn't expect it before 2015.
The Heer they have on the front page looks absolutely terrible (seriously, what happened to his legs?!) but other pics make them look pretty darn good!
AlexHolker wrote:
And I still don't like that idea. I'd rather see a six-limbed, tauric race wearing hard plate armour (like Stormtroopers wear in Star Wars) that is reminiscent of a "Tech Bug" look than just straight "Tech Bugs".
I suspect you're in the minority, then.
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A higher res shot of the hardsuit, probably the finished model or close to it.
Yep, arms are a bit too high, though that seems to be pretty much standard on most powered armor miniatures I've seen.
It's very similar to a line of vehicles and suits that appeared in kits under the names Maschinen Krieger
and SF3D.
I don't know all the details, but they're a really cool series of kits, though they tend to be a bit expensive as they aren't as cheap as they used to be and some are OOP.
I don't have any use (yet) for the other DG releases, but I'm pretty excited about this one and will likely be buying a box.
It's also a great kit for those looking to do classic Starship troopers or Battletech Battle armor in 28mm.
Eilif wrote:It's very similar to a line of vehicles and suits that appeared in kits under the names Maschinen Krieger
and SF3D.
I think it is obvious that this specific model was the "inspiration" for the Defiance games model. Maschinenkrieger is for alternative WW2 design what Star Wars is for SciFi.
These will be useful to me! I wish they would show us the guns though. If it has mini guns and missile pods like the art then I'm all in for a couple boxes!
jedi76 wrote:These will be useful to me! I wish they would show us the guns though. If it has mini guns and missile pods like the art then I'm all in for a couple boxes!
AlexHolker wrote:
And I still don't like that idea. I'd rather see a six-limbed, tauric race wearing hard plate armour (like Stormtroopers wear in Star Wars) that is reminiscent of a "Tech Bug" look than just straight "Tech Bugs".
I suspect you're in the minority, then.
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A higher res shot of the hardsuit, probably the finished model or close to it.
Yep, arms are a bit too high, though that seems to be pretty much standard on most powered armor miniatures I've seen.
I would buy this. Several times over. I care little for what I've seen from defiance outside of this so far, but this... oh boy... it causes quite the stirring.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Depending on the final look and reviews from fellow Dakkanauts those Herr are looking more and more like my Stormtrooper counts as.
Same here. I've already bought my meltaguns and have them ready. Just waiting on DFG to start selling them. Stormtroopers that don't cost almost $50 for a single squad? I'll take 30.
I second that. I think they have potential enough to be used as veterans as well, if one turns them into grenadiers. That would make for quite a bit of carapace armour.
Now Defience can work on the Germans and the USMC Hardsuits.
) and there's nothing wrong with either viewpoint. For a guy like me who plays a massive foot horde guard army, one or 2 guys with slightly soft details doesn't bother me so much, as I highly doubt my opponent would notice. For a guy who's playing smaller games, this could be very annoying, so I don't blame them for being miffed at all. The fact that they're barely more than WGF Great coats (for how much you're paying per model) and yet seem to be leagues ahead in quality, is plenty enough for me. If I don't like it, that's what I've got greenstuff and exacto knives for 
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