I keep reading about how a lot of people would turn GW around but some of their examples, just mind boggle me.
So let's say you are in charge, how would you turn GW around. Mind you, you have to answer to share holders and you have to keep up the sales and make money. Not just initial purchases and that's it. (the way I see GW is being run right now. Get rich parents to spend $200-$1000 and be content to never been seen again. Not sure if true or not, but it seems how I feel and from reading what the internet says.)
I see a lot of comments of "make small skirmish battle games". I can't see how this would keep making GW money. I mean yes it can make initial purchases and make lots of money, but how can you keep making these kinds of sales to last through the years? What about after the initial $100 purchase? How can you sustain sales and growth after that?
I would like to see people's ideas, and then discuss why or why not these are good ideas for a large corporation and how it will make money for share holders. While for you and me most of the sales we would love to have, but for share holders it wouldn't be good enough. So how would you turn GW around?
For me, I would want to make interest into the company. Hold events and not have others to do it for me. I would support people who would want to run events. (now it has come to my attention, GW use to do this, but they are scammed and I can see why they don't want to do it no more. Again, how can you do it and not get scammed?) and promote through the intent and stores, owned and LFGS.
I want to increase sales, so I would have a more open relationship to LFGS, and not sho horn them into buying my way.
I would also do research and have open forums to see what my customers would want. I just can't believe I read Kirby is proud they don't do research and don't care what people want to buy. Yes I would have to sit through all the negativity and anger that a lot of customers have, but have to live with it because after all, GW created the problem, it has to be fixed one way. Only way I can see is, just start the forums, let people have their say, and eventually and in time, calm will happen and hopefully create a friendly environment for all parities.
I wouldn't shun away from competition. I would acknowledge it, (how many game forums you go to and you always see references for GW in there especially 40K). I would want to make sure, we all can have fun with everything, and make sure my product is improved so people will want to prefer my system if they can't play both. If you have to only buy one, by mine if you can't buy both great products.
I would promote and get people excited for future projects in the making. I wouldn't want just rely on Impulse Purchases. Give previews, interviews on people's blogs. I am shocked that I don't see no gaming site do this. I would go on sites like Dakkadakka, BoLS etc and give out interviews and promos just like how video games do like IGN etc.
I would also give reward programs. Buy so much, you get a discount, free paint or what not. Possibilities are Endless.
I would also refine what kind of company we are. If I am a miniature company and want to sell minis, why are my books so expensive? I would think that if I can put more books into peoples hands they would see more of my product and would want to buy it. I would want to make more sales on volume instead of relying on expensive sales with little volume. Maybe GW has a supply problem and just can't manufacture enough now? If that is the case then I would have to look at that and see why we can't produce much product. Do I want to sell books or do I want to sell miniatures? Do I want to sell a hobby on the whole?
I would also have to look at the books. Is really selling at above premium prices with little inventory really that successful? No proof of this, but I would lower the prices so people can buy more. I would try and give value to my product so people will want to buy it. Good quality and good fair price. Good example for me is when ever I buy X-wing, I feel like I am getting value when I buy Star Trek Attack Wing I find I am buying bubblegum machine toys.
All I know is, how do I get people buying my product. How do I get the veterans back that are upset? Once I get the veterans back how do I get them to keep buying once they bought everything? I guess that is where the research will have to be done do see what they want. How do I get new people into the game? How do I get them to stay and keep buying.
I guess there's not much you'd be able to do since the company is public, it seems spending any type of money to invest in the rules or miniatures seems to be out of the question, so does lowering the prices to sane levels.
mitch_rifle wrote: I guess there's not much you'd be able to do since the company is public, it seems spending any type of money to invest in the rules or miniatures seems to be out of the question, so does lowering the prices to sane levels.
I think the internet community complains far more about GW's prices than the average public. My local GW store gets tons of business.
mitch_rifle wrote: I guess there's not much you'd be able to do since the company is public, it seems spending any type of money to invest in the rules or miniatures seems to be out of the question, so does lowering the prices to sane levels.
Not sure what you mean here? Why would share holders not want you to increase sales to make more money? I am sure a lot of publicly traded companies when doing bad, do a lot of changes to turn a company around. Why would this be so different? You telling me shareholders would say not to decrease prices in order to increase sales? You saying shareholders would say not to advertise or reach out to other 3rd parties to increase awareness?
Allways updating the rules seems to me to be annoying a lot of people. Not only in 40k, in fantasy allso. I have 3 exemplares of Empire(fantasy), and they don't even update every fraction either. Bretonians haven't seen a new "codex" in years... So If I were to increase sales, focus on the models, skip spending money on new editions all the time.
I would perhaps consider making more variations within the main factons, like they do with Imperial Guard; with different uniform-styles, but otherwise all within the same codex, but I realize it's expensive to cast stuff. Perhaps selling licenses to make models to companies interrested to hack into the WH-universe could make money; they don't need all that money, once they've fired all the ones making new editions all the time
Davor wrote: I see a lot of comments of "make small skirmish battle games". I can't see how this would keep making GW money. I mean yes it can make initial purchases and make lots of money, but how can you keep making these kinds of sales to last through the years? What about after the initial $100 purchase? How can you sustain sales and growth after that?
The proposed small skirmish game isn't the end. It's the means. Small 'all in one box' games serve as the gateway drug to get people into the hobby. Once they're in, you start enticing them in further with the 'good' stuff.
What I would do:
- Hire a Community Representative, who would run the official GW Facebook page, twitter feed, and Flikkr, liaise with tournament organisers and clubs, and generally spread the word about the hobby and give the impressions that the company is aware that its customers are human beings rather than just walking wallets.
- Hire and editor. Someone with actual editoral experience, rather than just someone who likes Space Marines and can say 'Yes sir, Mr Kirby, sir!'
- Start collating feedback from customers about the current state of the games, with a view towards tweaking the next editions to be more in line with what customers actually want rather than just changing stuff for the sake of change and hoping people buy it.
- Lift the Official Citadel Veil of Secrecy. Publish sneak peeks of WIP minis to Facebook. Publish test rules (ala the Trial Assault and Vehicle rules from way back when) for upcoming publications to White Dwarf, Facebook and the GW website.
- Reorganise the pricing structure. High prices aren't in themselves a problem. Inconsistent pricing is. Similar kits should be similar prices. Otherwise customers get confused, and confused customers become angry customers.
- Remove the restrictions on selling outside of geographical regions and for US stores to sell online. These policies accomplish nothing useful, and just remove the ability for 'legitimate' stores to compete with those who find ways around them. If customers are buying online from halfway around the planet instead of locally, that's a sign that you need to reorganise your pricing structure, not a reason to try to limit where and how those customers can access your product.
- Release softcover versions of all rulebooks and army books.
- Once the new direction of each of the core games has been established via aforementioned customer feedback, publish full and complete rulesets. Abandon the separate codex format - Each game would come with a core rulebook, and an army list book that would include all current armies. Boxed sets and/or rules would be adjusted to ensure that every box includes a legal, fieldable unit, and would include that unit's rules on a stat card in the box.
-- Over the course of the edition, the studio could then focus on releasing campaign material, expansions and fluff books, with new miniature releases sprinkled through (made possible by the rules being included in the box) rather than always playing catch-up to get each army with current rules.
- Reverse the move to one-man stores. Stupid idea, which is made even more obvious by the fact that (going by their financial reports) GW knew full well that the one-man stores would have worse sales figures than the stores they replaced. Making decent stores more profitable is a far more sensible option than replacing them with stores that nobody can find, that have to close whenever the 'manager' has to go to the bathroom.
And the final one for this current stream-of-consciousness-ness: Stop with the nonsense legal actions. Shutting down fansites for having the temerity to promote your product, and dragging your own name through the mud by attacking 3rd party producers for making stuff that you had no intention of making yourself does no good for the hobby or for anyone involved.
The proposed small skirmish game isn't the end. It's the means. Small 'all in one box' games serve as the gateway drug to get people into the hobby. Once they're in, you start enticing them in further with the 'good' stuff.
Lots of great ideas there Insaniak. This stood out to me. What if people will not change? What if they decide to stick to small games? Just like how a lot of people are refusing to play Unbound or in 6th edition, 1999+1 games, what if they don't want to increase gaming size? I believe that is why GW kept on making bigger point games and lowering points on units so people will buy more.
How would you get these people to keep buying more while still playing low point games? What if the rules for small point skirmish games become the fave and people don't want to play more than say 750 points, or 1000 points the most? What can you do then? How do you get people to play bigger games to spend more?
1) Clean sweep of all executive positions. They're not doing the company one lick of good. Good bye.
2) GW is a miniature and game manufacturer. Why they decided to become a miniature and game RETAILER is beyond comprehension. They spend a STUPENDOUS amount of money supporting a sideline that has little to do with their main focus... and do it badly. In the meantime they're also alienating the people who retail games as THEIR main focus. This would lead me to
a - close GW stores too close to a local game shop (ideally, close ALL GW stores, but that might leave some areas without a place to game... and I'm too much of a gamer to do that to my co-hobbyists)
b - end a LOT of policies aimed at getting people to buy direct instead of through the FLGS c - indeed, actively COURT FLGS to sell our product.
d - including having regional sales reps go and run regular events at the FLGS in their region. This is non-negotiable; if you can't do it then how do you expect to sell GW games?
In short, stop pushing the idea that GW can cover all aspects of GW gaming by itself equally well, because they've spent the past twenty years demonstrating they can't. And since we'd no longer be spending that stupendous amount of money running GW stores, I could...
3) Chop prices to more reasonable levels. I'd also make the prices a bit more rational than they are now (no $50 for 10 core troops, even if they can be used to make a rare troop as well). We'll make less per unit, but likely move a LOT more units.
4) The entry-level game MUST be made more affordable as well. A $100 box set that is only marginally playable by itself simply will not do. A $100 basic rulebook is ridiculous for a starting player. Ideally the starter box should be fully playable and comparable in cost to other mini games - which seems to be in the $50 range. A WFB skirmish game starter would fit the bill quite nicely.
5) On a related note, given that I got started into WFB through Blood Bowl, I'd bring back the specialty games. Surely the molds are still in storage somewhere, and the rules are out there on the internet as well.
Now onto the long-range plans.
6) Announce that new editions are forthcoming and open a forum for the fans to discuss what is good and bad about 40K, WFB, Mordenheim/Necromunda, Epic/Warmaster, Blood Bowl, BFG, etc.
7) Actually listen to what the fans say. Small point, but vital.
8) Actually playtest the rules, not just in-house but in beta releases. Hunt down the really evil manipulative rules--lawyers among the fans and set them loose on the rules to see how badly they can be broken... and then fix them. On a related note, since you never manage to catch everything, FAQ updates WILL be regular and as comprehensive as needed. New print runs of the rules will incorporate the rules changes.
9) Release new editions of the updated rules, possibly with multiple different starter sets - one per army. Say, a basic legal 500 point army and the rulebook, using existing sprues instead of custom ones.
10) E-book will sell for a reasonable amount. Updates of existing e-book files will be available. Not sure if free will be possible, but as cheap as can possibly be arranged. If we have to make the fans pay because we screwed up, we certainly won't profit from it.
11) All army books WILL be updated before releasing a new edition. New edition rules will not make existing armies dramatically under- or overpowered.
12) The forum will have regular polls asking what needs fixing, what minis need to be redone, so on and so forth. We will then refer to step 7 again.
Big changes, I know, but I think it would really help the company by helping expand the community. GW fans know at least as much about making the game fun as the game designers do. It's past time they were listened to.
Davor: Battletech has run it's basic ruleset for thirty years with only one trivial change. And yet it's still a profitable game.
Davor wrote: Lots of great ideas there Insaniak. This stood out to me. What if people will not change? What if they decide to stick to small games? Just like how a lot of people are refusing to play Unbound or in 6th edition, 1999+1 games, what if they don't want to increase gaming size?
Then that's a good thing. Because you now have games in your portfolio that attract both those who like small games, and those who like big games. Those people are often not the same people.
There's clearly an audience for games that allow for larger battles... (the fact that 40K is the only real scifi game that does so currently available is a large part of the reason I've stuck with it for so long). But the huge growth in recent years of skirmish games and all-in-one-box games since Kickstarter became a thing shows that GW is missing out on a fairly significant slice of the pie by not catering to gamers who are into such things.
I believe that is why GW kept on making bigger point games and lowering points on units so people will buy more.
Believe it or not, that was actually started by the gamers themselves.
2nd edition was really only intended as a skirmish game. It very quickly got clunky and unweildy at larger points values. But what happened over the life of the edition was that people started playing bigger and bigger games with it. And so part of the objective when 3rd ed was written was to give people a game that actually allowed them to do so without reaching retirement age halfway through turn 3.
It's hard to say how much the contonuing trend in more recent years is pushed by the gamers and how much by GW's financial department, because somewhere after 4th edition was released, GW stopped asking their customers what they wanted and started just assuming they already knew.
How would you get these people to keep buying more while still playing low point games?
I wouldn't make it about 'low point games'. I would make it about a succession of all-in-one box games that people can buy and play straight out of the box. Stuff like Space Hulk and Heroquest, with simple, easy to learn rules that you can just pick up and play, but that lead you into the setting and so the next game released is already somewhat familiar even before you open the box, while giving you a new way to explore that setting.
Some players will gravitate to the smaller games and stay there... and so you give them a steady supply of new games to try out.
Others will play the small games and start looking for more... and for those, you have the 'core' game waiting.
Davor wrote: Lots of great ideas there Insaniak. This stood out to me. What if people will not change? What if they decide to stick to small games? Just like how a lot of people are refusing to play Unbound or in 6th edition, 1999+1 games, what if they don't want to increase gaming size? I believe that is why GW kept on making bigger point games and lowering points on units so people will buy more.
How would you get these people to keep buying more while still playing low point games? What if the rules for small point skirmish games become the fave and people don't want to play more than say 750 points, or 1000 points the most? What can you do then? How do you get people to play bigger games to spend more?
If you sold them a $100 all in one game and they didn't buy into the greater product range because of it, it's not necessarily failure of the product to act as a gateway. Chances are that people was simply never going to otherwise be your customer. If a $100 all in one game is 'enough' for them, trying to sell them $500 worth of models for a single army isn't going to accomplish much. At that point, you be happy they paid you money for something and move on to the next customer.
There comes a time when that hard sale just becomes more trouble than it's worth, and there's easier sales to make.
Same with people who buy a single 10 model list for Infinity and download the rules. Was it pointless for Corvus Belli, since they only sold 10 models and no rules? Well no, because they sold 10 models. Is it pointless for Wyrd if someone buys a single Malifaux crew and a small rules manual, but no fate deck, arsenal decks or additional models? No, because they sold them a crew and a rules manual.
The main point with Games Workshop right now is in order to interact with the greater community, the price of entry is absolutely horrendous.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Insaniak makes some good points but the problem is to make money you have to spend money, i don't think GW are willing to take risks anymore.
I agree with that point, unless theres a complete restrucuture and re-think of the way they do business and sell products, than their dead in the water
Personally I'd start fostering the community. Encourage players to play games on store tables, and bring back items at the $5-$20 impulse price point. Blister packs of HQs, or a couple of troops. Tshirts, Video games, stickers etc, anything to boost those low cost high volume high profit sales. Especially for the teenage market, they're gonna think long and hard about that $50 box of terminators, but that $15 aquila shirt is going to fly off of the shelves.
Look at other "luxury" brands- from my own experience, paintball. A good tournament marker is around $1200-1500 (or at least was when I was still playing circa 2009), and all of these brands had a VERY extensive supporting line to go with it. From actual gear (GW could do this with playing accessories, beyond their normal dice/tape measure stuff.) to what they referred to as "lifestyle" products. Aka $20 tshirts that people bought by the bucketful to proclaim the fact that they were a paintballer.
Translate this into the GW context, and you have relatively low cost, tempting "PLEASE MOM PLEASE" impulse buys. I for one would buy the crap out of some chaos star t-shirts.
The first thing I'd do is see what I can do to make the CHS thing go away, accepting that it'll involve writing a large check.
Then I'd send a huge freebie pack to every independent retailer that still has an account; as a means of a thank you / support, for them to use to fit out an in-store gaming table and as prize / promo support for their customers, giving a reason for them to promote GW again. Budget for maybe £150 per store in raw material costs (so about £600 in RRP); that should get them a RoBB, some scenery, and a few dozen blisters / sprues to give out. Ship them out like the old black boxes - no packaging, just bagged sprues to save on costs.
Then I'd look at outsourcing the rules writing to FFG/River Horse (Allesios new company) and focus on producing minis.
Once all of that was in motion, I'd pay off Kirby and shake up the entire management structure, and re-instate a few of the global HQ's.
I'd try and court other companies to use GW for production; they have the skills and capacity, so it should be a good profit source. I'd do it either via the Citadel label, or make up a new casting subsidiary.
With the stores; I'd drop any which aren't going to be profitable, and instead try and improve support for independents, with a few travelling support staff. I'd also try and stock as many franchised GW stuff as possible (the FFG games), gift cards for the Apple/Android games, merchandising, a comprehensive Black Library range, etc. I'd try and get as many sub £10 items into the stores as well, even if that means splitting boxes up further. Basically trying to capitalise on the impulse buying market.
Rules and unit entries need fixing. I only know 40k, but I'm sure Fantasy needs it too.
The quickest way to fix them is with Errata, but there's none of that happening. There was the mixed-range change last year, and the Heldrake's neck, but that's about it.
If a unit needs a points change, get it changed. And leave it there until other stuff around it has been fixed. Don't wait for the next codex, years later.
Management needs a shake-up. How many of them don't know the hobby industry, and just see GW as a toy company with stores? Get shot of them.
Get player input into the company. There must be ways to get players elected into a players' committee of some sort. Maybe get the big forums recognised, and a rep from each of them put forward. Have a portion of the committee made up from the store managers, even if it's only from the bigger, more-than-1-man stores. Tournament winners could make up a couple of places, too.
Run any new rules or models past them before release. Use them for playtests and sanity checks.
For struggling GW stores, run a 'sanctioned store' programme. Allow them a bit of free rein, and stock selected non-GW items, like FFG games or modelling materials. If that works, expand it to other stores that have the room.
Open engagement with the community and proper market research. Out of all the 'bring back squats' 'nerf Riptides' 'give marines ws5 bs 5 etc' comments find out what will actually be a benefit and will retain/gain customer goodwill and indeed customers.
There are so many dissenting voices as to what makes a good rule set, game, world, army that doing this may take a while. It may be better for long term viability to target just one or two aspects but the main thing is to get the ship moving in a direction.
A hobby centre in major locations. Encourage uptake and participation events in these centres. Make them a destination, a social experience. promote these spaces and use them as centres for community outreach.
Core rules for major games released free as PDFS etc. Core rules are to be play tested to death before release. professional editors will be hired to ensure these things are legible and coherent, with as few ambiguities as possible. development will including giving to non gamers to see if they can understand them.
Added value in the form of full unit sizes and equipment in each box/blister.
Data sheets or a code for a downloadable PDF ebook file with full unit rules included.
Physical rules will be available for sale.
3rd parties should not be a threat. if a 3rd party product is superior then that should be a spur to make the best model figures in the world. If they actually infringe take steps. The best way to beat the 3rd parties is make sure that your on products are better.
Engage FLGS, win back their business with a product that shows profit potential and long term viability. I'm in the GW business so I want to see shelf space taken with my product, I also want said product to be number 1 in consumer minds.
Tournaments are my friend. Prize support, funding, advertising, engagement. A big tourney can act as a mini con. Tout the product to high heaven. work with organizers to produce tourney packs etc.
Advertise them! They are playing MY game!
New product research. Feth me! chibi fantasy dungeon crawlers are all the rage, space corridor zombie games are in! big (small) robot mechs are back! Pokemon - I REMEMBER! its still around! I want my consumers thinking and playing in my game worlds in their sleep. In fact, I want them sleeping under Sigmar duvets, drinking from Aquila branded mugs, wiping on slaaneshi embossed toilet paper.
Licensing - see above, if it isn't viable for main company to do it see if it is valuable to someone else (within reason and taste - slaaneshi toilet paper is mine though I know a paper converter!)
Social fething media and a platform to comment. I'm a big boy i can take it.
This is what I put in the other thread. It is all high level stuff.
Reconnect with your customers. Right now you have got half your old fans actively working to undermine you because they are so disgusted with the direction you have taken the company and the game(s).
Reconnect with your retailers. You might make less from one kit sold through an independent, but if you can sell two kits through the independent you make more. Also you can't fill the world with official GW shops. It is too big.
Make proper use of your shops. Invent some new games to sell. Bring in the best licensed 3rd party games such as the Fantasy Flight role-playing and card games.
Get more staff to run demo games and modelling skills classes. You don't have any other way to recruit new players because you pissed off all the veterans, don't go to shows, and don't sponsor clubs and tournaments any more.
Make some boxed games. Some of them should be complete-in-one-box type (like Space Hulk.) Others could be extendable, like a renewed Battle Fleet Gothic with fleet expansion packs. You should make some new games though, not just recycle old ideas. You need to show people who go into your shops that they don't have to just spend £1000s on being able to play only one game.
Prices need to at least be held for a while to allow people to price back in. Maybe do some bundles to provide value without obvious price cuts.
Also, the rules and codexes really need to be available in cheaper editions. People who don't buy the rulebooks won't buy the models.
Get rid of Codexes and have a FoC and data sheet in every box.
So for example you buy a box of tactical marines and in the box is a card with all the stats and options plus any special rules and where they fit in the FoC.
This is what other games systems like malifaux do and I think it works really well.
Then make the mini rule book available to buy seperately so you don't have to buy the massive hard back one.
Then if people want it rather than Codexes they could produce source books for background, fluff, painting etc.
Troops choices and rule book should be loss leaders to make them cheaper or should be available as bundles with higher discount, which Storm Claw already demonstrated can be very successful, just should have been available for longer.
GW have also already produced kits with rules in, the Imperial Knight has stats on the instruction sheet and some of the newer buildings have them on the instruction sheet too.
I'd introduce starter sets as a kind of gateway drug.
Many, though not all, of these games would include figures that could be used in Warhammer and 40k.
So, for example, an Eldar vs Tyranids skirmish game, probably on a cardstock board that includes miniatures that can be used in other armies. (Yes, pretty much Doom of the Eldar) Bring back Space Hulk. Gorkamorka. Chaos vs Imperial Guard, or marines in a perpetually mutating ship. Tau invading a Tomb World to stop it activating.
probably Necromunda too, and not even worry that the models were not all directly applicable to 40k.
Bring back Mordheim. Have a dwarf versus skaven and/or goblins tunnel skirmish game. A wood elf versus beastmen forest skirmish game. An empire versus vampire counts tomb raider game with heroes, but also models useable as Empire State troops. An Orc versus Ogres semi-humourous gladiator game. A high versus dark elf game where you are racing against each other to complete some sort of magical task, and probably fighting as you do it. A Chaos warbands trial-by-combat game. Each game could be as similar or as utterly divorced from the main game as you liked.
Bring back Blood Bowl. 'Nuffle Said.
I would investigate whether there is a market for bringing back Adeptus Titanicus. It was always my favourite when it was one of the three staples of GW. I am just not sure there is enough profit in it.
Make each of them so there is no saving on buying the models separately, but include some unique models in each, but also just the regular models from other games to save expense. The rules and cardstock would be more or less free, but an incentive to buy.
Well, some of what I would do is tactical, and some of it is strategic. Bear in mind I'm no finacial or business wizard.
1. Change the Mission statement of the company. It would no longer be about making the best Miniatures int he world, but instead be to make the best miniature games in the world. I would recognize the fact that without games or backstory you have nothing.
2. Switch back to Cult Marketin. Cult marketing is where if people "bu-in" to your product hey get additional access to how the company works and operates. It is more personality driven and less product driven. Think about Apple when Steve Job was around. Think about GW when everyone knew Gav, Jervis, and Andy. This would also include previews, behind the scenes vids, seminars, and battle reports. Make the customers feel like part of the successof the company.
3. Use Social Media extensively to engage with customers. The thing that differentiates Miniature wargames from other forms of entertainment is the social interaction and creative outlet. This needs to be capitalized on. This would inclde forums, facebook, twitter, instagram, vine vids, and youtube channels. This can be used to gather important market/insight data.
4. Build relationships with FLGS and Communities and reduce my own retail exposure. Physical brick and Mortar retail is a dying space. Let indies take the risks tere, and do what you can as a distributor to help them. However, don't try to fight the internet anymore. Embrace it. These relationships can also sub as your marketing/insight channels for relatively cheap.
5. Make more games. Use your expansive IP to tap intot he potential and create lots of cross-over potential. Keep 40K and Fantasy your flagships, but create a web of games that competes in all "markets" of the Wargaming space. Compete for market share in all avenues to undercut your competetion. GW has more resources than their competitors, but if they don;t leverage their advanage to force their rival to expend capital they are missing a trick. By competing everywhere, no other company can simply take market share without a fight. Int he far future there is only corporate war!
6. Restructuring the pricing to be tiered. Basic stuff to play the games should b cheap and potentially loss leaders, i.e. Rules, Codexes, and troops. Think of it like selling drugs; you give someone a taste relatively cheap until they are hooked. Then you crank up the price.
7. Abandon churn to earn strategies. It is far cheaper to retain a customer than to create one. Business 101 really.
8. Stop caring too much about shareholders, because at the level GW is playing the shareholdes don't care too much about them. Focus on the long term success of the company first by investing as much back into the comapny as possibel and reduce the dividend.
10. Get rid of 'Yes Men" and replace them with results oriented people. Create a culture of accountability to those results fromt he ground up. The only path to promotion should be results.
11. Define success as Marketshare growth not necessarily sales numbers. If your customer base grows, it will translate to increased sales thanks to your tiered pricing strategy and competition in all wargaming/boardgaming markets.
So really, if took over it would be a complete cultural and tactical shift before I ran the company ruthlessly into the ground and sold of the assets for my own personal gain.
When I see anyone posting things like "fire the board of directors", "ignore the shareholders" or "slash prices 40%", I feel safe to assume one of two things; they're either working for someone like Privateer Press and want less competition, or the poster is so utterly clueless they don't realise that ideas like this aren't just bad, some are illegal. Plans like that are absolutely the best way to kill off GW faster than anything the current management are doing.
It's also true that this thread is a bit unrealistic, as anyone 'in charge of GW' would never be involved in the minutiae of designing new products, setting prices or writing rules. But what the hell, I'm going to dip into the realm of fantasy too. Wooohooo.
As I see it, GW has a lot of unused potential. Their primary strength over competitors is their production and design capacity - this should be leveraged as much as possible to restore former market share. The IP is also a huge resource, and provides a very recognisable brand able to draw in customers via other media. Here's my rough plan (note that I don't mention WHFB at all, as I know nothing about it or it's issues)
Short Term
The overall goal is to reduce the barrier to entry and bring in new players without them needing to immediately drop a fortune on models, paint, codexes and rules. If the hobby is less daunting to start, there is more chance of a customer sticking around to build up a collection over years.
The first objective is to stem the sales decline and improve cashflow, so no more cuts are required. I'm confident that this can be achieved with a simple new product line - the entry level skirmish game several people have already mentioned. The heart of this is a cut-down version of the main 40K game in a similar style to Kill Team, intended for 300-1000pt games. It would include only the core rules and scenarios, with no vehicles and very few USRs. These rules would be made available via free PDF download on the website, and in free leaflets in stores.
To support this, a new 'core product' range would be identified. This would consist of the basic units for most factions, such as Space Marine Tactical Squads, Eldar Guardians, Tyranid Guants, etc. The core range for each faction would recieve a simple 2-3 page army list with the relevant unit entries and options, also made available for free via download. These products would likely require increased production, taking advantage of GW's high-volume plastics manufacturing capability.
This range would be supported by limited release starter sets akin to Stormclaw, although with fewer models; a Tac Squad vs Tyranid Warriors + Guants would be a good example. The set would include rules, dice, templates and glue, and be priced in the £40-50 range. These products would then be pushed not only through GW stores and FLGS, but also any possible new customers such as toy stores. This would be the start of a new focus on trade sales, aiming for volume rather than margin in order to grow GW brands.
Alongside these starter sets, items in the core range would also recieve regular special offers via GW stores, encouraging customers through the doors to see the wider range in person. Store managers would be encouraged to run intro sessions of these skirmish rules, teaching new customers how to play and building excitement.
The end goal is to draw customers up from these starter sets toward mainstream 40k, once they own a sufficient collection to play it.
Long Term
Once cashflow has been steadied, test the water for Specialist Games by releasing an established product via Forge World. That production method is ideal for small-run items as part of a premium range of products, and nothing fits that description better than a Necromunda gang.
I'd also look into FW producing some mainstream GW products, such as special characters, and having them sold transparently in the same manner as finecast items currently are. This would make it easier to update old low-volume items like Phoenix Lords without resorting to overblown dual-kits or pointless accessories like Logan's pimp-mobile.
I'd be looking closely at competitor's products and seeing what we can do better. Many of them gained inspiration from GW games in the first place, so there's no reason GW can't compete back.
GW also has a pretty obvious untapped potential... allowing other companies to produce miniatures using their IP. Ranges at scales other than 28mm (like BFG and Epic) could be resurrected via IP license in a similar way to video and board games, with full approval over aesthetics. This would have two key advantages: firstly GW would undertake next-to-no risk, as the producer has to cover all their own production costs. More importantly, it helps to reduce competition, giving GW a portion of income where previously they had none.
GW needs more "hobbyists". It seems to me there are too many corporate ladder-climbers in there now.
GW's hiring practices need to be simplified as well. Their own hiring practices cut out or reject some of the very people they need in order to make any significant changes.
If you get the right people in there, naturally they'll have the right "attitude", then you'll see changes for the better in all areas.
GW has had their chance and squandered it. Its time for someone else to manage their IP's. They are sitting on a gold mine but cant see past their greed to realize it.
1. Rules. Get a set of solid stable core rules to draw people back into the game that have left and bring new people into the game. The purpose of the rules will be to get people playing the game not to manipulate the models they buy or be a significant source of funds.
1A. Regularly update the rules for balance every quarter and use the updates to market and release new material. Every faction will get new stuff at least one time per year. Rules will be available online to allow people to keep up to date without always buying new stuff. Collectors editions of the rules will be sold with new versions coming or roughly every 2 or 3 years filled with fluff, modeling tips and bonus rules to layer over the core rules. WAAC/tournament players will be drawn to the current, balanced rules, hobbyist casual gamers will probably like the print versions.
2. Prices. Starter armies will be available for around $100-130 and contain two full squads of the faction's basic trooper, a minor HQ option, a special squad and a vehicle/monstrous creature type model. Deluxe starter armies will be available for about 2x the cost with an extra unit or two and better core units.
2A. Units will be priced based on their on table performance. The stuff in the starter boxes will have low prices as will a limited number of other models for each army. Then the bulk of the stuff available will sell at tier two prices, followed by tier three prices for the second largest block of surg and tier for prices for a limited number of the best/coolest options for each army. (This excludes really big stuff which will be pricier still). If you want the good stuff you will have to sacrifice or have money, but you will still be able to compete if you can't afford the better stuff.
3. Warhammer 80k. Release a new game that slowly reveals the world in the 81st millennium. Start by releasing just 2-4 armies. The balance of power has shifted, but when the game is released the story of what is happening throughout the galaxy is hidden. The scope starts small in a corner of the Galaxy with little info about what events led up to the current situation. Every faction's tech has changed significantly so every unit is unique in this setting dosing from the 40k setting. A new faction is released each year with an expansion of the fluff. The whole thing though is a vision of a farseer or prophet so events as they unfold in 40k impact 80k. Rules would be roughly compatible with and similar to 40k so as to not erode that played base.
If I had complete totalitarian control of the company...
1. Sack the ENTIRE board of directors.
2. Start buying back company stock as quickly and as much as possible.
3. Separate the design studio from marketing & sales.
4. Restructure the US market to support LGS's.
Put Tom Kirby and Matt Ward in a arena in a fight to the death. Whoever survives must then turn towards the audience and they decide via thumbs-up or thumbs-down if the survivor gets to live or the lions are released.
I would hire Michael Bartels from PaintingBuddha. com, and known as Zaphod Beeblebrox here, to run the company for 42 days.
Here are two statements from his blog on masterminis.net -
I know there are a lot of new people reading these blog entries. Some might think "who is this guy anyways?". Well, in the words of Gag Halfrunt: "Zaphod's just ziz guy, you know?".
First and foremost, I am a nerd. In my life before making my life-long dream true by starting our company Paintingbuddha, I was Global CIO of ALDI South, one of the most successful global discount retailers worldwide. My credo: High quality + low price = mass sales that kinda thing.
I believe I could do a better job than the current GW management, even though this may sound arrogant.
And I believe it should take about 42 days to turn Games Workshop around. Because that's how I roll
I believe in you Michael, and if I had complete control of GW you would hear a knock on your door about an hour after the paperwork had been signed.
That would be awesome, Daemons is when the cracks started, by grey knights and crons it was falling apart, I haven't read the codex fluff entirely since, I try but then I just toss it aside at the first sign of trouble saying "F it, not wasting braincells and time on this".
Random Dude wrote: I would separate game design from marketing. I really dislike the buffing/nerfing of certain units to increase sales.
Tau Flier, Dark Angels Flier, newest Nid MC, Bullgryns, stupid big Ork Stompa thing, Taurox.
Not only is the whole nerf/buff things to manipulate sales demonstrably untrue, it would also require a degree of finesse and understanding of the finer workings of the game that there is a pall of evidence to suggest that the current studio possesses.
Aside from what others have said... create your own LotR bubble.
What I mean by that is ride a hot franchise right now. Let's say, Game of Thrones. Try working out some kind of deal with GRRM or HBO or whatever to create a GoT game. Advertise the gak out of it. Make the minis inexpensive (like LotR minis back then, not the prices they are now). Of course this would require money that they may not havew right now but hey, one can dream.
Because they strive to make dividends, everything is driven towards the profit margin. Now they could still do this without shareholders, but taking GW private should be the first thing.
Remove the insular attitude towards the world-
A one way communication with customers has alienated their customer base and treat them as money bags and nothing more. Now, it is not ever going to be an equal two way street if they come back to the table and want to talk with their customers, but at least try and feel out what customers want and find out how to provide it.
Change the culture-
One man stores and the stripping down of resources is not a good sign. Complete the transition to what you want to be and focus on making a great game and making sure you grow your customers.
Rinse and repeat-
Maintaining the customer base is not hard so long as you don't screw up that much. Just make sure that you don't lose your shirt pandering to customers or losing them.
heartserenade wrote: Aside from what others have said... create your own LotR bubble.
What I mean by that is ride a hot franchise right now. Let's say, Game of Thrones. Try working out some kind of deal with GRRM or HBO or whatever to create a GoT game. Advertise the gak out of it. Make the minis inexpensive (like LotR minis back then, not the prices they are now). Of course this would require money that they may not havew right now but hey, one can dream.
It would also require a paradigm shift in how Kirby et al run GW. They've staked their reputation and the future of GW on turning (or attempting to turn) their products into high priced, Premium products. "They'll buy whatever we make". We won't EVER see cheaper models again from GW while the Old Guard remain in place, because to do so would be to admit that they were wrong.
Cheaper prices is not the magical cure-all that some think it is. In their current financial situation, it would be corporate suicide. They need to make better rules and interact with their customer base. People would happily pay high prices if the rules were good and the new releases were better (flying shipping container, logan clause, murder mcmurderson the murdery from planet murdercide). If you have an undesirable product, selling it cheaper does not in any way fix your business or keep the customer base happy. Do a better job play testing and balancing the game, re open your Facebook account and forums, sponsor tournaments, and make your trade terms with FLGS more conducive to them selling your product. Let the GW stores succeed or fail on their own merit. Any of them that are not profitable should be shut down. Hire a regional rep to go around to the FLGS in the area to setup leagues, tournaments and painting contests. Talk to the store managers that are running profitable stores and figure out the common themes. My guess is more gaming space, less hard sales tactics, etc. Capitalize on your IP with low cost, high volume things like dice for each faction with their colors and their symbol on the 6 side, t shirts or polos with the army symbol, etc. Give each customer an account so you can track who is buying what and how much they're spending over time. At $500 you get a free widget, at $1,000 you get a small discount from that point on. Reward customer loyalty in a way that doesn't destroy your profit margin but makes customers think you just might see them as something other than a wallet with legs. All of these strategies would help turn the company around with minimal overhead or risk and a high ROI, but none of them will ever happen because GW is so set in their ways that clearly aren't working.
I'd start having all the rules designers fired. Out of a cannon. Then I would get better rules writers to make a make balanced and tactical version of 40k and Fantasy, whilst also changing the release schedule so a random faction gets a release each week, instead of a couple of factions receiving all the love whilst the rest get ignored.
@TheAuldGrump.
I agree that GW plc need to separate the sales department influence/control from the studio.
AFAIKGW plc literally do not have a marketing department, no marketing director/manager , no marketing office etc.
Just a sales department.(That do not actually do any marketing, which is different to sales.)
Unless my friends that work at GW were telling me 'fibs for effect'?
And actual proper marketing, with accurate and relevant market research.Is the first step to turning GW plc around.
Find out who your customers are and who they could be,What they actually want, and the most effective and efficient way to deliver this.
Rather than Tom Kirby just picking the easiest group to sell products to and then maximizing returns of this ever shrinking group.
(People who just want the idea of a game to inspire them to by bits of plastic at the same cost per weight at 18 karat gold. )
Oddly enough I sent a letter to Tom Kirby last week (I loves me some good old fashioned snail mail ) that was in essence this thread.
1. Replace lots of pointless 1-man stores with fewer big stores - well staffed, open for evening gaming, full range of stock, plenty of gaming/painting space, somewhere to buy a sandwich/cake/drinks.
2. Make White Dwarf and the website relevant again by actually having content, community feedback, designer interviews, sneak peeks etc.
3. Put head above parapet and go to conventions, get interviewed by gaming media (basically stop being an ostrich).
4. Have a new edition of 40k/WFB be a one off event with all the background, rules and army lists published in one huge 7-volume set (but you could get by with min of 2) with everything properly balanced and playtested.
5. Spend the years between edition with designers alternating between putting out campaigns and smaller 'game-in-a-box' offerings; models to be updated as needed in a mixed release schedule - always something new for everyone!
6. Consistent pricing across the range.
Azreal13 wrote: 1) Reorganise the retail operation. Close the pokey one man stores and centralise the operation into larger multi staff destination stores open 7 days a week and well into the evening. Incorporate staff bonus schemes to include community growth as well as sales growth, linked to tournament entries, game night attendances etc. The staff would be responsible for organising these. Move to stock Forge World and FFG materials in store.
2) Produce a genuine one per faction starter that included a small but balanced force and codex for an appreciable discount.
3) Instruct the studio to produce a small, squad based skirmish game, using the core rules from the main games as their inspiration, with a two step structure allowing for a very basic intro game but with a more advanced level, a la Infinity. Box it with absolutely everything needed to play, get it into non specialist retailers and advertise it in mainstream media. Use this system as both a bridging game and a means to stimulate sales on some under performing lines. Imagine how good a DE Mandrake could be at skirmish level with rules allowing it to redeploy all over the table, make sneak attacks etc, as opposed to their decidedly mediocre 40k showing.
4) Accept the internet exists
5) Acknowledge that indys, employed correctly, are a valuable asset and not an irritation
6) Give the studio more control, only intervening if their ideas were genuinely too costly.
7) Realise that the demographic I was alienating (vets) had more money and were more likely to continue to stick around and adjust the company output to at least reflect the older players interests.
At this point - there is not much that can be done. I think that a good start would be to clean up the 40k rules (can't be done since 7th just came out). Rebalance all the codexes by throwing them out and streamlining the army lists, cutting out all the bloat (can't be done since 7th just came out). Repackage all the models into "base kit", "add ons" at revised and consistent (possibly cheaper) prices. This would lower cost of entry, AND encourage those who just want the upgrade sprues to buy those separately.
I think that GW management has conveniently thrown the very tools they need to patch the sinking ship overboard, under the misguided notion that lowering the weight of the ship will stave off their destruction.
Just like to add my view since I've started a thread about GW prices which I think reflects the same aspect of this question.
As said before the company is public which creates more restrictions than solutions but for one the company directors should employ a full on marketing team to which would with ease boost the company 10x over with proper market execution.
People want to see the following.
1. A drop in price between 25-35% on all items.
2. A customer account plan ( spend x amount of money and get bonus points which turn into extra money off or go toward other boxes)
3. Bundle discounts if again a certain amount is spent.
4. More competitions with prizes from GW to draw customers in
5. Local tournaments which winners or runners up get prizes
This for me is a base to start increasing customer sales and popularity among the masses. More buys from people will result in more profits and the amount of action going on will draw in more newbies and thus the domino effect of success will begin.
A few things I would do would likely be unpopular for current fans, though I suspect less so than many of the past big moves made by the company.
1: Modernize and refine rules for both major games.
Current editions would get some support as new editions are developed. Not much new from new editions from GW but I am talking about rather drastic changes ,possibly larger than the 2e to 3ed shift. Old army books would not transition to new editions and the army books would hopefully rapidly release updates with no new models and only rules updates. I have some ideas about how to do this and honestly, if I still played 40k or had some other motivation I'd be working on a set of fan rules already.
2: Shift from army book style release to campaign or anthology style releases.
I don't believe the army book style release schedule is good for long-term sales or for game balance. I like the anthology style books that many other companies produce. They leave no army out. I would try to push the design team to make the expansion books profoundly story-driven which might not lead to perfect game balance, but should still leave fans excited and feeling included. This also gives a more steady rate of income rather than the surges and lulls the company gets now.
3: Split the retail chain and game/model production sides into two companies.
The first two suggestions might be tame and generic but I've never heard anyone suggest this before. GW have a huge asset on their hands that they are squandering: the largest game store chain in the world. They have global recognition and key locations but still the retail chain seems to be a means to an end rather than the massive money maker it could be. splitting the company into Games Workshop Hobby Centers and Citadel Games would be my solution. GWHC stores would then be allowed to sell any game they saw fit but a contract would be in place between GWHC and CG to promote Citadel Games' products and distribute exclusives etc.
I cannot understand how so many people are suggesting the elimination of such an asset or spending so much more on a very limited sales position. Perhaps most importantly, it would allow creators to run creative endeavors and experienced retail executives do what they do best and build up a traditional retail chain.
4: Bring added value to many of the grievously overpriced kits
Direct price reduction of everything as many have suggested would ruin the company. My solution would be to gradually repackage some of the kits to have more models for the same price. Five-man units for $50+ would become ten or fifteen strong. Expensive transports and tanks might have a small squad included. Considering their low material and production costs vs. the crazy shipping rates these days, boxes of more stuff seems like a more economical approach. Also, SKUs might be reduced through such bundling. The idea is to help the customer get more value without hurting the company or retailers. No matter how much we want lower prices for the same things it is not possible without driving GW out of business.
5: Gather metrics
The recent revelation that GW does not conduct market research is baffling. This essential step to a modern, global publicly traded company's development process would be added right away.
6: Add gateway games to the Citadel Games brand
Whether it is a modern version of Space hulk, Blood Bowl, and/or Mordheim or something brand new, smaller stand-alone purchases and board games would be needed to not have the entire company stand only on the Warhammer IP as it does now. This is without even considering the benefits of new gamers and customers being brought in.
7: Involve the community
Restart a facebook page and company forums. Have company representatives give honest answers. This industry is so heavily reliant on the community GWcannot afford to ignore that aspect any longer. Not everything needs to make everyone happy but honest and open communication will go such a long way in restoring the reputation and faith of fans in the company.
Start from scratch with a couple of guys and a small shop by designing a good rules set, exceptional figures, and build on a reputation of a gaming company.
Open up for more games. Instead of shelling out for a larger Corporation structure, I'd shell out for quality writers, and serious design staff. If I have a few younger staff members, I'd throw them to the wolves and have them become the eyes and ears of the company in public forum.
A name to a face. Instead of hiding in the ivory tower, I'd be out in public, playing, talking up, and having a good time with the product, instead of crying over shareholders.
Develop a solid idea, and build on it, not reinvent the wheel on every edition.
Books would build on each other. Not be wizbang flavor of the month bolterporn.
Games, games and more games.
T Shirts, reasonable prices, and know the market, as well as the customer. WHO IS THE TARGET AUDIENCE- anyone with green in their pocket. If you are loyal to the brand, then we can give you a little place in the sun as well.
SHOPS- GW shops would be gaming stores that sold- games. even mantic, independents, and everything else. They would basically be B and M gaming stores. I would do exactly what they are doing with the stores, but with more attitude and exactly what they are there for. Competition in the market for FLGS's.
If I eat your lunch, you must be doing something wrong.
I would not penalize FLGS's either. If you want to sell my stuff, put it in your window, sell it. Even if it was just a box or two, You have that option. Small Medium and large store options to increase sales. Incentives to sell my products. If you have sold over 1,000 units, We'll do a RT event in your store with a special guest appearance by someone on staff.
I would use this as a two fold event. One to encourage sales, TWO to throw writers, designers, and staffers to the wolves and see what everyone out there likes or hates and is able to say it to your face.
Getting the ground truth about the product from staff, stores, and the public, and actually improve it or make changes that sell, not that I am personally married to.
All in all- basic sales and marketing, and business 101.
* Freeze 40k and WHFB right now. Talk to the public, tell them that we're going to be evaluating the games and rewriting the core rules to make them more balanced, more fun and more accessible. Explain that we understand our customers have made a significant investment in our products, and that we appreciate that, and will try to accommodate as much as possible in the new, forthcoming versions.
Then start work on new versions of both. Involve the community; give previews, have an open beta, spread the word. Send representatives to the big tournaments in Europe and North America, and find out what are people's pain points, what they like, what armies are seen and what that comp is; take notes. If all the Space Marine armies are bikers with Kor'sarro Khan, that's something to address. If you only ever see Chaos with Nurgle, make a note to fix that.
Actually go and fix the rules. Focus on a tight set of tournament rules, and then allow them to be expanded. Nothing should be so OP that it wins games on its own without a hard counter.
* Immediately institute a price freeze while you "evaluate" options. New products get priced appropriately, not higher because they're new.
Offer discounted bundles through the web store, maybe even get Mail Order again where you could call up and say you wanted to start a new army, and get a discount on some stuff. While this is going on, come up with "starter armies" for each faction in the game, say around 750 points that has a good balance. Throw in the Codex/Armybook for free.
Streamline boxes - a unit box should contain everything needed to field that unit in a normal format. So for example, a Space Marine squad should contain 10 guys and include jump packs, enough special/heavy weapons to make a Devastator Squad, or the like. Maybe even include a Command Sprue with some extras so you could build a Captain if you wanted. WHFB boxes should be based around 20 troops (either 20 regular or 17 + command) for infantry, and 10 for Cavalry. Even at the current prices, this isn't that bad as you're getting more bang for your buck.
Eventually you come up with some PR BS about streamlining the casting process and how you're going to pass this on to the customer (in reality you didn't do anything) and slowly reduce prices on new kits while still offering deals from the store. Prices should be comparable to Mantic/Warlord/Perry, slightly higher but not more than a few bucks.
Standardize prices so Australia isn't getting screwed.
* Get rid of one-man stores. Either staff them appropriately, or shut them down. Work with independents whenever possible, especially in North America. Encourage a weekly league night for 40k and Fantasy (a la FNM).
* Bring back some of the board game type of games e.g. Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, with colored plastic figures that can be used in 40k/WHFB if needed. This provides a real beer-and-pretzels game but you can expand if you want. Do expansions for this to appeal to other armies.
Look at bringing back specialist games in some form, possibly similar to the above board game.
* Embrace social media. Encourage designers and staff to have blogs about collecting, painting, battle reports, etc.
1) Close down all the retail stores. GW is a game maker not a retailer and they don't know squat about running a retail business.
2) funnel the retail money into reps who travel the country going from LGS to LGS running demos and events. This would build a bond with your LGS and the community. They could provide support to your LGS owners by showing them how to run events and offering prize support for leagues and tournaments. Help your store owners with promotional materials like posters
3) Release information on new products ahead of time and take pre-orders (much like Gamestop does for video games).
4) Allow LGS to order what they want.
5) Do market research
6) Hire a community manager/social media manager
7) Create a basic rules and advanced rules. The basic rules would be your starter game, geared for 1 hours worth of play and be a skirmish level game. Advanced rules would cover larger point games and apocalypse level battles.
8) Bring back games day and foster a tournament environment
9) Advertisement - in the form of small guerrilla style marketing. when someone buys a 40KPC game, throw a brochure in the game box and have and advertisement in the game load screen. Stupid little things like that.
10) Sales. Do a year end inventory clearance for old product and maybe a black friday christmas sale.
11) evaluate your product lines and determine which products sell and which don't. cut the products that don't sell well enough.
12) lower the price on products that are ridiculously over priced. Looking at you blood knights.
Allow forgeworld products to be sold at the local gamestore level without having to order it online only. This to me is a huge one for years all my local stores had and still have a no forge world rule and its because they say its nice we we do not and cannot carry it due to no price breaks and if they price increase it then people will just order it direct.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We wrote: 1) Close down all the retail stores. GW is a game maker not a retailer and they don't know squat about running a retail business.
2) funnel the retail money into reps who travel the country going from LGS to LGS running demos and events. This would build a bond with your LGS and the community. They could provide support to your LGS owners by showing them how to run events and offering prize support for leagues and tournaments. Help your store owners with promotional materials like posters
3) Release information on new products ahead of time and take pre-orders (much like Gamestop does for video games).
4) Allow LGS to order what they want.
5) Do market research
I agree with all and add the forgeworld stuff in.
6) Hire a community manager/social media manager
7) Create a basic rules and advanced rules. The basic rules would be your starter game, geared for 1 hours worth of play and be a skirmish level game. Advanced rules would cover larger point games and apocalypse level battles.
8) Bring back games day and foster a tournament environment
9) Advertisement - in the form of small guerrilla style marketing. when someone buys a 40KPC game, throw a brochure in the game box and have and advertisement in the game load screen. Stupid little things like that.
10) Sales. Do a year end inventory clearance for old product and maybe a black friday christmas sale.
11) evaluate your product lines and determine which products sell and which don't. cut the products that don't sell well enough.
12) lower the price on products that are ridiculously over priced. Looking at you blood knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agreed with WE
I was going to post a long list, but I arrived at two conclusions:
1) Most of the stuff has already been covered
2) I think selling out is the best strategy now as GW is a bit over the cliff and I think they need complete overhaul before they will get back in the good graces of many players and gaming stores.
insaniak wrote: The proposed small skirmish game isn't the end. It's the means. Small 'all in one box' games serve as the gateway drug to get people into the hobby. Once they're in, you start enticing them in further with the 'good' stuff.
What I would do:
I found myself nodding as I read insaniak's response--found myself agreeing pretty much 100%.
On a related note, my pet gripe with GW is that it once had a fantastic "channelling approach" working for them.
At 28mm, 40K was, with it's small-scale, squad-level focus, the perfect "gateway drug".
They later introduced the 6mm Space Marine, which was great for those of us who wanted a new challenge. "Bored of 40K? Have you tried Space Marine?" The 6mm game allowed us to take the battle to a larger scale, but with a ruleset that catered much better to massive conflicts than does the 28mm scale.
They even introduced the Battle for Armageddon boardgame, which while a solid boardgame in its own right, was even better as a campaign system for either 40K or Epic.
And let's not forget BFG, which allowed you to explore the universe of 40K from an entirely different perspective.
These other "channels" have now gone, leaving only 40K and a few expansions on the 40K rules that, to my thinking, don't really fill the void left my those other channels. Apocalypse, for example, really wasn't streamlined enough or focussed enough (in my opinion) to enable massive conflicts, and as such wasn't a good substitute for Epic.
I realise there are many here who will disagree with my assessment, but I think GW suffers greatly now from offering less variety to gamers.
GR00V3R wrote: I realise there are many here who will disagree with my assessment, but I think GW suffers greatly now from offering less variety to gamers.
Aside from the most determined white knight, I don't think there's anyone who will disagree with you.
Offering updated miniature ranges in Epic, 40k and Battlefleet Gothic, introducing a skirmish level game and readjusting 40k down to platoon level, then offering a campaign system to link all four would be a fantastic move.
I feel like I'm just repeating what has been said but the more people see it the better it sounds I guess.
1. Before a new edition/codex comes out have the community test it either by sending it to FLGs or events. This will fix many of the balance issues and to see if any rules are confusing so we won't have to pause a game to debate on a rule.
2. Price drop on models. This will help in the long term because I think people will make more armies and this will get new players since it won't cost them so much to get into the hobby.
3. If dropping the price on models is impossible have gifts/benefits for spending so much and don't limit it to certain items. Maybe have a few sales on items once in awhile. I see this getting more people into the hobby and older players building more to their armies or starting another one.
Those are some of the few things I would do. I think one main issue GW has is that they are cutting out potential customers due to their prices/marketing. You might have someone who loves the lore of 40k but then sees the price to start and army.
They have backed themselves into a corner where cutting prices would just make their situation worse. It takes time for a price increase to pay off. They are not making decisions based on 5 years from now. They are making decisions based on the next half year report so that shareholders don't dump them and the fat cats on the board can keep cashing their dividend checks. This is one of the issues with the company being publicly traded.
GW needs a major crash or disruption to force them to re-evaluate. Nothing that would make them go under (as they would probably take the rest of the hobby with them), but a big enough hit that forces them to think about what they do.
With that in mind, here's what I would do:
PRICES. It's what matters more then anything else; GW could probably survive many of their other poor decisions if they hadn't messed this up. In my heart of hearts, I would like to see an across-the-board price cut, sales, packages that are actually deals, and good point-of-entry products. I also worry that people who have been buying at the current prices will feel screwed if that happens. So, at a minimum, an across-the-board price freeze.
I think one approach would be to do a whole line of "easy-fit", snap kits for common models for all the factions, priced at an easier level. These snap-kits would cover the low end, just as Forge World captures the high-end power modelers who want something baller and have the money to spend on it.
ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY -- but be careful about the trolls. (Social media is the big buzzword, but social media campaigns are easy to hijack and go horribly wrong #redskinspride.) Any attempt to open up to the community is going to come with an enormous amount of hate and trolling, and a lot of it is unmerited (Matt Ward probably does not deserve death threats for what you think is bad fluff in a codex.) I still think they should do it, though, as GW is so aloof and quiet it just begs to be hated. Even something as simple as a more transparent release schedule could go a long way.
WHAT's DEAL WITH RETAIL? Seriously, why does GW have a retail arm at this point? Ten, even five, years ago the model of having a large store which would serve as a community hub made sense. I suspect a lot of people on these boards got into the hobby because of a demo with a GW employee.
Now, GW has decided that that is too expensive, and they don't want to be in that business, which is all well and good. But the one man stores serve...what purpose exactly? They can't host a large event, they have weird hours, the poor manager is always overworked...and GW stores are getting a bad rep. I don't think GW can afford to go back to the 'big store' model, so at this point it needs to question whether its retail business is worth the cost.
A corollary of this, of course, is that they stop slotting off independent retailers, including online retailers.
A NOTE ON RULES. I used to think that the cost of rules and codices was a relatively minor expensive to play the game compared to all the models, paints, cases, etc. that you needed. I also feel like releasing a dataslate or supplementary codex near-simultaneously with a "regular" codex feels like double-dipping (what, all the Space Wolves models that are out now are NOT in the Space Wolves codex?) Rules should be cheaper, and more accessible.
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. One of GW's greatest strengths is that it has an iconic, unique, and memorable IP in Warhammer 40k (Fantasy less so), and they could definitely do more to leverage it. Looking at the earnings statement, it's clear that THQ's implosion and the loss of revenue from Dawn of War and other games really hurt them. Making good Warhammer games (not shovelware for mobile games.) would help a lot with Warhammer's broader reach, brand, and the bottom line. (I have high hopes that the Creative Assembly-designed WHFB game will come through and be awesome.)
I agree with Harakiri on a few points, especially merchandise. GW could just allow a 3rd party company to create everything for them.
Get someone to completely revamp the GW personality. Every shop owner I talk to seems upset of jaded by working with GW.
Keep up this release schedule as is. We are seeing GW release books at a new speed, we also recently had an amazing box set. Might be a hint of new things to come.
GR00V3R wrote: I realise there are many here who will disagree with my assessment, but I think GW suffers greatly now from offering less variety to gamers.
Aside from the most determined white knight, I don't think there's anyone who will disagree with you.
Offering updated miniature ranges in Epic, 40k and Battlefleet Gothic, introducing a skirmish level game and readjusting 40k down to platoon level, then offering a campaign system to link all four would be a fantastic move.
QFT, I've wanted to get into BFG for bloody ages now. Do you know why I can't? Because GW don't do the models any more. I don't want to pay the silly 'OOP' prices on Ebay. I've got the money for a 40K fleet game, but it appears they don't want my money. So I bought some Firestorm Armada ones as proxies. If they released BFG and a neat little platoon level game, I'd be all over it like me on a plate of chips.
ComTrav wrote: GW needs a major crash or disruption to force them to re-evaluate. Nothing that would make them go under (as they would probably take the rest of the hobby with them), but a big enough hit that forces them to think about what they do.
People used to say the same about TSR - gone for how long, now?
And as GW pulls back to become more and more its own sole means of sales and distribution... GW going under will matter less and less.
They are treating the Local Games Stores as competition, instead of as a means to sell product.
Dictating terms that a number of game stores found unpalatable enough that they spat GW right out of their stores.
And GW is surprised that sales through independent retailers is in decline?
Though I do not entirely disagree - an industry within the industry exists solely to add value to GW's properties - Victoria Lamb, Kromlech, Chapterhouse... and GW's response was what was supposed to be the first of many lawsuits against those 3rd parties supporting their company.
Those lawsuits were stopped, not by common sense, but rather because that first lawsuit met with unexpected resistance - and because their target received incredible pro bono support from the legal community.
Accepting the 3rd party and aftermarket companies would be a major first step that GW could take on turning around - some of those companies do more advertising than GW... despite being much, much smaller.
In my opinion, there is no turning back now. They've passed the point where they can turn the ship around on their own. Let it run aground and salvage the important parts from the wreck.
If I were the sort of "angel investor" that GW needs, the kind that saved D&D from death, I'd be watching this downward spiral like a hawk, waiting for a chance to swoop in and acquire the valuable bits from amongst the mess. Most of it isn't worth saving: the incompetent design studio that created an unfix-able game, the doubly-incompetent management that drove the whole company into the rocks, even the manufacturing facility that is pitifully outdated compared to those used for Gunpla kits. The only thing of value is the IP, and even that's debatable.
With the IP secured, I'd set about rebuilding a new company from the ground up. New studio, new management, everything. Secure the manufacturing capabilities to actually make the "best miniatures in the world." Introduce a new crop of games at varying buy-in prices, fine-tuned through public beta. How many of us wouldn't jump at the chance to test a new edition before it launched and give feedback?
Above all, reengage with the fanbase. "The Warhammer worlds you love, without the company you hate!" will only get you so far. Sponsoring events, encouraging creativity, and rebuilding the community would go a long way to demonstrating to customers that they are valued, unlike the current state of affairs.
I think Warhammer and Warhammer 40K can survive, but only without Games Workshop pulling them down.
If people are gonna rebuild GW, I guess they should take a page from the new DnD 5th Edition. WotC released DnD 4th Ed. and most of the players of 3/3.5 hated it and the game died slowly. With the new 5th ed., WotC spent years playtesting (with constant input from the community with what they want and what they want changed/kept the same). They let the community help with how it should be molded (mostly letting players playtest the materials). Now, only the basic rules are available but from what I can see it is what a huge chunk of the community wants.
If GW's gonna relaunch everything that is the minimum of what they have to do.
heartserenade wrote: If people are gonna rebuild GW, I guess they should take a page from the new DnD 5th Edition. WotC released DnD 4th Ed. and most of the players of 3/3.5 hated it and the game died slowly. With the new 5th ed., WotC spent years playtesting (with constant input from the community with what they want and what they want changed/kept the same). They let the community help with how it should be molded (mostly letting players playtest the materials). Now, only the basic rules are available but from what I can see it is what a huge chunk of the community wants.
If GW's gonna relaunch everything that is the minimum of what they have to do.
Ironically, WotC borrowed the approach that they took for 5e from Paizo - who had taken over the lead in the RPG market by updating the 3.5 rules instead of throwing twenty plus years of experience out the window.
Which means that WotC learned from their own mistakes and paid attention to what their competition was doing right.
And they did a ton of market research on 5th - which was notably lacking for 4th. (They were still denying that 4th edition was in the works the week before they announced the upcoming release of 4e.... Turns out that customers don't like being lied to.)
For a brief time WotC was making many of the same mistakes as GW - but they took note of falling sales, and are turning the Titanic around.
*EDIT* To be fair to WotC, much of the change was caused by Hasbro altering the terms of what lines would receive support - and D&D looked like it might be marginalized.
My math might be a little off, so if someone wants to double check my numbers please.
A lot of people say GW needs to lower prices and they will make more money. Let's look at some numbers I made up. Lets assume a unit retails for $100. GW sells this to Independent stores for $60, and it cost GW $15 to manufacturer*.
GW makes $45 per unit and the retail store makes $40.
Now, lets say GW drops the retail price of that unit 25%, and they drop the wholesale price by 25% as well. The Retail price is now $75, GW sales to the independent stores for $45, and both make $30 on the sale of the unit.
One last assumption, lets assume in the prior year both sold 100 units under the old price. With the new unit the independent store needs to increase sales of units by 33% and GW needs to see an increase of 50% just to make the same profit.
* - This includes fixed and variable cost and R&D.
I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand that lowering prices is not a magic button you can push to fix everything. With the way they've alienated the customer base, a 20% price drop is not going to make the people that left come back. Without marketing, it will hurt more than it helps. If they do decide to start advertising, that's a large cost to take on and they won't be able to lower prices. GW have backed themselves into a corner where they've nearly priced themselves out of the market but lowering prices would accelerate the death spiral.
I was thinking earlier how awesome Warhammer World would be if they allowed the use of other systems. They could concievably have an event every weekend with minimal work, have plenty of space and good facilities so would be in pretty high demand.
They could even go the whole hog and sell other ranges too and turn it into a proper gaming mecca. Obviously they could keep the Warhammer theme and museum, but I'd totally go down for Malifaux or Historics weekenders.
Toofast wrote: I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand that lowering prices is not a magic button you can push to fix everything. With the way they've alienated the customer base, a 20% price drop is not going to make the people that left come back. Without marketing, it will hurt more than it helps. If they do decide to start advertising, that's a large cost to take on and they won't be able to lower prices. GW have backed themselves into a corner where they've nearly priced themselves out of the market but lowering prices would accelerate the death spiral.
Because the current prices aren't working.
If they do not do something to increase actual sales then they will likely go out of business.
I think that they need to do a complete reboot - stop everything, rewrite and reprice the entire lines, and start over.
This will take time - during which they will not make any money.
So I do not see this happening.
Frankly, I do not see GW ever pulling out of this spiral - they may slow the collapse, but I do not see the company lasting all that much longer without a major effort in rebranding themselves.
And that will take a willingness to spend the needed time and money to get back into a competitive position.
No matter how much they preen and pose, they are not the Porsche of the wargaming world. I joke about them being the Yugo, but really, they are the Ford - middle class, and all over the place... but they are trying to sell to an upscale market with a product that just does not justify that position.
To be fair, I think Tom Kirby realized that GW plc was in a decline that he could not be bothered to correct since 2005.
And after about 2009, I think most people would struggle to turn GW around.
The only way to save GW plc would have been to use the success of the Hobbit, to effectively use GW plc licence to generate enough interest to get people engaged with GW plc again.
Eg re-create the LoTR marketing tie in/price points to get more people through the door.
Then actually invest the money from this in actual market research and adding value to the product range.
Eg better rules to improve game play experience, better box to unit ratio etc.
However, Tom Kirby seemed to think that pricing products effectively to engage new customers 'cheapened the brand ' too much.
And is intent on grabbing as much cash from GW plc as he can before he uses his golden parachute.(If he can off load £4 of his shares . with the proposed corporate share buy back' that may signal his swansong?)
The more I look into it the more I agree with TheAuldGrump.
Lanrak wrote: To be fair, I think Tom Kirby realized that GW plc was in a decline that he could not be bothered to correct since 2005.
And after about 2009, I think most people would struggle to turn GW around.
The only way to save GW plc would have been to use the success of the Hobbit, to effectively use GW plc licence to generate enough interest to get people engaged with GW plc again.
Eg re-create the LoTR marketing tie in/price points to get more people through the door.
Then actually invest the money from this in actual market research and adding value to the product range.
Eg better rules to improve game play experience, better box to unit ratio etc.
However, Tom Kirby seemed to think that pricing products effectively to engage new customers 'cheapened the brand ' too much.
And is intent on grabbing as much cash from GW plc as he can before he uses his golden parachute.(If he can off load £4 of his shares . with the proposed corporate share buy back' that may signal his swansong?)
The more I look into it the more I agree with TheAuldGrump.
I think that between 2006 and 2011 or so Kirby was hoping that somebody would buy GW - lock, stock, and plasma core. And was positioning the company for just such a takeover.
I have heard that there were interested parties (including the often mentioned Hasbro).
But that they all left without expressing the kind of interest that would lead to a takeover, leaving GW in the position that Kirby had put it in.
Toofast wrote: I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand that lowering prices is not a magic button you can push to fix everything. With the way they've alienated the customer base, a 20% price drop is not going to make the people that left come back. Without marketing, it will hurt more than it helps. If they do decide to start advertising, that's a large cost to take on and they won't be able to lower prices. GW have backed themselves into a corner where they've nearly priced themselves out of the market but lowering prices would accelerate the death spiral.
Because the current prices aren't working.
If they do not do something to increase actual sales then they will likely go out of business.
I think that they need to do a complete reboot - stop everything, rewrite and reprice the entire lines, and start over.
This will take time - during which they will not make any money.
So I do not see this happening.
Frankly, I do not see GW ever pulling out of this spiral - they may slow the collapse, but I do not see the company lasting all that much longer without a major effort in rebranding themselves.
And that will take a willingness to spend the needed time and money to get back into a competitive position.
No matter how much they preen and pose, they are not the Porsche of the wargaming world. I joke about them being the Yugo, but really, they are the Ford - middle class, and all over the place... but they are trying to sell to an upscale market with a product that just does not justify that position.
They are not a Porsche.
The Auld Grump
I agree with this. Games like 40k need a complete reboot to make them good games and competitive. At this stage though I have doubts that even if GW stopped everything to rewrite 40k that they would put the needed effort into it. To get back up making money quickly I could see them doing a short 'down tools' reboot that would result in a shoddy reboot. I just have to look at the tyranid 5th ed and 6th ed dexes/dataslates to see the level of shoddy work, lack of concern for customers and lack of desire to even do easy fixes to make a product much better. I see GW doing just enough to hopefully get by and hope that the die-hards sing the praises of GW and how they have done what we players wanted by fixing the game to give the company some more life and delay their demise. I do hope I'm wrong and they seriously revamp 40k but I think there needs to be a serious change in mentality at GW and that probably means staff changes or contracting the rules out to a competent game company.
I would completely rweplace the edition of rules and codexes for both 40K and Warhammer.
Fix it agnd get it balanced.
Balanced armies and rules that the two most important things GW needs to do, and are actually the cheapest to fix as it just involves replacing existing publications, not existing tooling.
With a properly balanced bs free editions of the two main games half of GW problems would go away in a single year.
LOWER THE PRICES. Seriously they want to bring in new gamers, not push old ones away. I'm to the point where I flat refuse to order and GW items from the GW store. I amazon, Ebay, and local-shop search for discounts. If they concentrated on bringing people into the hobby without having to give blood to afford the models, they'd be in much better financial shape.
Kronk would have the 'Eavy Metal team paint 1 of every unit from FW and GW and send it to Kronk for evaluation. Maybe duplicates of Troop Choices as Kronk prefers Battle Forged Lists.
It seems like the real issue is not being able to hold on to existing customers and bring in new customers. These are separate issues that would need to be dealt with on their own.
The biggest obstacle for people to enter seems to be pricing. I see a lot of parents bringing their kids into my FLGS and walking away with 1 or 2 small boxes. This is very different from a few years ago, when they would buy a starter set, paints and other upgrades suggested by staff and hangers-on.
While that story is allegorical, it does speak to some of the things we have seen in recent financial reports. I suppose it's possible people are going away and buying online, it doesn't make sense that someone would pay full price online when they could get it at a 10% - 20% discount at a FLGS.
The biggest thing I hear complaints about from veterans is the new Codex format and the rules for various armies. The game is a lot more complex these days, with Lords of War, Fortifications, and other elements that don't really add up for the average player. Add to that the idea of 'tiered' Codexes, where there's a perception some armies are better than others, and you have a situation where some of the people loyal to the game have disincentives to want to purchase part of the model line.
So, were I to take over:
- Start a loyalty program, offer discounts based on multiple purchases. These would be available through the webstore and retail establishments, and would net people about 5% off over time.
- Reduce prices for troop and elite models. Give people a financial incentive to want to use these guys in their armies and expand the number of models you can sell. It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
- Adjust the rules through a FAQ. Let players officially decide if LoWs, Fortifications, etc, are allowed in each game. GWs rules need to be 100% crystal clear and eliminate ambiguity for the community to focus on having fun.
- Do a study around which units are not being used in each Codex and FAQ them until they work. This could be as simple as an online survey kept up over a 3 month period, with FAQ answers coming out each quarter. Get the community watching for it so they know 'things will get better.'
- Eliminate Supplements and other DLC-type stuff. Include this material as part of a White Dwarf subscription, like they did in the past. Supplements work against GWs model in that they are selective, you have to already have the army to want the supplement. It diminishes the opportunity for people to learn about cool things you can do with another army, which certainly affects sales with existing gamers. The Internet only says bad things and you don't want them controlling the message.
I suspect this would result in an revenue increase of around 5% in the first 6 months.
techsoldaten wrote: It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
It's really not. Models should be priced on practical design and production costs, not on their in-game role.
For less than the cost of one mono-pose, plastic space marine commander, you can get a box of three mono-pose, plastic Guild Riflemen, each of which are of equal or better quality. If you're not interested in Guild, there are dozens of other choices.
Even in their large kits, GW are overpriced. When I can get three of these for the cost of one riptide, or five for the price of one Imperial Knight, the issue really comes into focus. Especially considering that the kit I linked to is fully poseable and molded in full color.
The price of GW kits are really and truly inexcusable. This is why they're in such decline: excessive cost for kits that are average at best, sub-par at worst.
techsoldaten wrote: It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
It's really not. Models should be priced on practical design and production costs, not on their in-game role.
I'm not saying it's right, I am saying it would be better business to sell the troops cheap. Let people pay higher prices for the other stuff to fill out their army.
Guildsman wrote: For less than the cost of one mono-pose, plastic space marine commander, you can get a box of three mono-pose, plastic Guild Riflemen, each of which are of equal or better quality. If you're not interested in Guild, there are dozens of other choices.
Even in their large kits, GW are overpriced. When I can get three of these for the cost of one riptide, or five for the price of one Imperial Knight, the issue really comes into focus. Especially considering that the kit I linked to is fully poseable and molded in full color.
The price of GW kits are really and truly inexcusable. This is why they're in such decline: excessive cost for kits that are average at best, sub-par at worst.
Think about the cost of a Lord of Skulls compared to Wraithguard. You get about 3 WG for the cost of a LoS. That equation seems unbalanced.
I agree, the prices are too damn high. If I was trying to correct the problem, where I would start is by making it cheaper to get into the hobby. If the average cost of an infantry model was around $2, I could see more people playing the game.
techsoldaten wrote: It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
It's really not. Models should be priced on practical design and production costs, not on their in-game role.
For less than the cost of one mono-pose, plastic space marine commander, you can get a box of three mono-pose, plastic Guild Riflemen, each of which are of equal or better quality. If you're not interested in Guild, there are dozens of other choices.
Even in their large kits, GW are overpriced. When I can get three of these for the cost of one riptide, or five for the price of one Imperial Knight, the issue really comes into focus. Especially considering that the kit I linked to is fully poseable and molded in full color.
The price of GW kits are really and truly inexcusable. This is why they're in such decline: excessive cost for kits that are average at best, sub-par at worst.
I do not disagree with you that prices are both too high and not consistent with themselves. But as I explained above lowering prices will not fix GW, not unless they expect to sell 50% more units. GW has backed themselves into a corner that is going to be difficult to get out.
I would agree. Models are one thing and yes GW models are absurdly priced in many cases and their rulebooks and dexes are also way too high. Even if some are willing to keep buying at whatever cost it not only makes it hard to get new players to start the game but lots of veteran players have reached a point where the cost is a factor in dropping 40k or at least drastically scaling back purchases.
The other point has to be the poor rules/dexes, IMO. There will be those that like the rules how they are or grumble but continue buying/playing but the incredibly horrible balance issues, scores of sup-par units and wargear make 40k unbearable for many players that would likely come back if serious effort was put in to correct this issue. On top of this is errata done properly - correct rules problems or point cost problems or whatever to make all units gear functional and balanced (not talking about perfection here).
techsoldaten wrote: It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
It's really not. Models should be priced on practical design and production costs, not on their in-game role.
For less than the cost of one mono-pose, plastic space marine commander, you can get a box of three mono-pose, plastic Guild Riflemen, each of which are of equal or better quality. If you're not interested in Guild, there are dozens of other choices.
Even in their large kits, GW are overpriced. When I can get three of these for the cost of one riptide, or five for the price of one Imperial Knight, the issue really comes into focus. Especially considering that the kit I linked to is fully poseable and molded in full color.
The price of GW kits are really and truly inexcusable. This is why they're in such decline: excessive cost for kits that are average at best, sub-par at worst.
I do not disagree with you that prices are both too high and not consistent with themselves. But as I explained above lowering prices will not fix GW, not unless they expect to sell 50% more units. GW has backed themselves into a corner that is going to be difficult to get out.
You're absolutely right. For business reasons, they can't just slash prices. There's no guarantee that sales would respond proportionally, and that's the issue. GW has put themselves into a position where they can't go on in their current plan, but may or may not be able to afford to course correct. That doesn't change the fact that the kits are a poor value as they stand right now.
Guildsman wrote: You're absolutely right. For business reasons, they can't just slash prices. There's no guarantee that sales would respond proportionally, and that's the issue. GW has put themselves into a position where they can't go on in their current plan, but may or may not be able to afford to course correct. That doesn't change the fact that the kits are a poor value as they stand right now.
I agree, which is why I would aim to increase the value to turn it around. You don't need to lower the prices or throw more models in the box but little things like talking to the community, supporting and running events, listening to feedback, putting painting articles and short stories in White Dwarf instead of trying to sell them separately and put some White Dwarf articles up on the website a few months later for free.
GW need to become a company people want to buy from again, if the do the price issue wont go away but it'll diminish greatly.
techsoldaten wrote: It's fine to have high priced generals and heavy support options so long as the troops are cheap.
It's really not. Models should be priced on practical design and production costs, not on their in-game role.
For less than the cost of one mono-pose, plastic space marine commander, you can get a box of three mono-pose, plastic Guild Riflemen, each of which are of equal or better quality. If you're not interested in Guild, there are dozens of other choices.
Even in their large kits, GW are overpriced. When I can get three of these for the cost of one riptide, or five for the price of one Imperial Knight, the issue really comes into focus. Especially considering that the kit I linked to is fully poseable and molded in full color.
The price of GW kits are really and truly inexcusable. This is why they're in such decline: excessive cost for kits that are average at best, sub-par at worst.
I do not disagree with you that prices are both too high and not consistent with themselves. But as I explained above lowering prices will not fix GW, not unless they expect to sell 50% more units. GW has backed themselves into a corner that is going to be difficult to get out.
You're absolutely right. For business reasons, they can't just slash prices. There's no guarantee that sales would respond proportionally, and that's the issue. GW has put themselves into a position where they can't go on in their current plan, but may or may not be able to afford to course correct. That doesn't change the fact that the kits are a poor value as they stand right now.
They are a big enough company they can afford to test market. They could release boxed set / bundles that reduce the overall cost for a set of models, or slash prices on individual units.
I am of the theory that GW's latest problems are a result of being too expensive for parents to afford for their kids. Gotta have a gateway.
Want to increase good will with the players ?
Want to encourage people to play and buy more armies ?
Want to do it with a minimal, if not neglible, investment ?
DOUBLE the contents of all, non vehicle, boxes of product. That's it. Don't need to lower the prices, just include more product.
When the price per figure drops from the current $5 a fig level to $2.50 per figure, the recasters and 3rd party manufacturers won't be able to compete in resin.
The existing player base doens't feel like they are being bent over a barrel buying 5 man squads, and models like Centurians and Meganobz become less comically priced, ecouraging players to expand their collections.
People stop buying as many recast models, recasters stop recasting because it's not profitable, and GW sells more GW models.
3rd party manufacturers product become niche and no longer high quality resin for the same price as GW plastic
There are a lot of great replies in this thread, but I can't help but feel that many suggestions would end up hurting or killing FLGSs. If GW slashed prices or doubled the contents of boxes, I know our store wouldn't be able to survive the loss of revenue unless GW also decided to buy back all the product that we currently have (in which case they probably couldn't handle the losses). If I were put in charge of GW,there would be a number of new policies that I would implement.
1) Customer outreach-
this one should be obvious to everyone. They need to renew their facebook accounts, establish "official" forums, and re-implement the skulls program. Customers who feel like they are getting a good deal or something for free are happy customers. I would also change white dwarf (again) and redesign it along the lines of WSS or Wargames Illustrated.
2) More games-
Look at some of the most popular games out there besides 40k. You have skirmish games, fighter games, fleet games- the list goes on. Re-releasing Battlefleet gothic with modern rules and new miniatures and watch Spartan Games implode overnight. Make a 15mm version of Epic and compete with Hawk and Battlefront. I know if they made a modern version of Necromunda and Mordheim I would pack my store with old-timers coming out of the woodwork. If they wanted to keep people from using their bigger armies in skirmish games, make the figures 30-32mm, though I personally would keep it at 28mm. GW has some of the best rules-writers in the world working for them, give them the atmosphere and support to make amazing games. Develop fast play rules that allow a gamer to play with a battleforce or less. GW already makes the best figures out there (IMO).
3) Licence your brand/magazine/stores. GW is a game/model company. Why are they trying to sell tools/brushes/scenery. I'm not even talking about GF9 or ArmyPainter, I think their stuff is even more marked up than GWs. Partner with Vallejo for paints, Woodland Scenics, Plastruct and Evergreen for your terrain and partner with Zona, Testors, Bob Smith and Xuron for tools and glue. All of these companies specialize in materials for modelers, and their quality is better for less money than GW's competitors. Most gamers aren't aware of these companies, and will be amazed at the difference. Have these brands repackage their products in GW labels and watch the competition dry up. Carry Airbrushes/resin casting/ model building materials in your stores, and sell/trade ad space in your magazine for these partners. None of these companies are or should be competitors with GW, and farming out the supplements can allow GW to focus on what they do best.
ATAHobbies wrote: There are a lot of great replies in this thread, but I can't help but feel that many suggestions would end up hurting or killing FLGSs. If GW slashed prices or doubled the contents of boxes, I know our store wouldn't be able to survive the loss of revenue unless GW also decided to buy back all the product that we currently have (in which case they probably couldn't handle the losses). If I were put in charge of GW,there would be a number of new policies that I would implement.
1) Customer outreach-
this one should be obvious to everyone. They need to renew their facebook accounts, establish "official" forums, and re-implement the skulls program. Customers who feel like they are getting a good deal or something for free are happy customers. I would also change white dwarf (again) and redesign it along the lines of WSS or Wargames Illustrated.
2) More games-
Look at some of the most popular games out there besides 40k. You have skirmish games, fighter games, fleet games- the list goes on. Re-releasing Battlefleet gothic with modern rules and new miniatures and watch Spartan Games implode overnight. Make a 15mm version of Epic and compete with Hawk and Battlefront. I know if they made a modern version of Necromunda and Mordheim I would pack my store with old-timers coming out of the woodwork. If they wanted to keep people from using their bigger armies in skirmish games, make the figures 30-32mm, though I personally would keep it at 28mm. GW has some of the best rules-writers in the world working for them, give them the atmosphere and support to make amazing games. Develop fast play rules that allow a gamer to play with a battleforce or less. GW already makes the best figures out there (IMO).
3) Licence your brand/magazine/stores. GW is a game/model company. Why are they trying to sell tools/brushes/scenery. I'm not even talking about GF9 or ArmyPainter, I think their stuff is even more marked up than GWs. Partner with Vallejo for paints, Woodland Scenics, Plastruct and Evergreen for your terrain and partner with Zona, Testors, Bob Smith and Xuron for tools and glue. All of these companies specialize in materials for modelers, and their quality is better for less money than GW's competitors. Most gamers aren't aware of these companies, and will be amazed at the difference. Have these brands repackage their products in GW labels and watch the competition dry up. Carry Airbrushes/resin casting/ model building materials in your stores, and sell/trade ad space in your magazine for these partners. None of these companies are or should be competitors with GW, and farming out the supplements can allow GW to focus on what they do best.
I am going to both agree and disagree with this in general....
Getting rid of their support lines would hurt them - I know folks hat buy GW paints (over priced as they are) but not GW miniatures. As for their plastic buildings - the last GW items that I bought are GW terrain pieces. (Bought at half price at a store that was going out of business - not because of GW, just a messy divorce.)
But I also think that GW needs to reestablish their stores as general gaming stores - carry other folks material. Acknowledge that they aren't the HHHobby.
The Auld Grump - it is what GW started as, once upon a time....
While lowering prices may not fix the problem as some said, it is the main reason for me, and I believe others we are out. We have put up with shoddy and unsupported rules for years now. We even put up with price increases, but enough is enough now.
Enough of shoddy unsupported rules. Enough of poor writing and unedited rules. Enough with copy/paste. While yearly price increases are gone, but raising prices during a codex launch is just as bad. The buy in is way too expensive.
If GW feels that sales give a bad view or seems to deman their product, then don't have prices so high that people seem you need to have sales then.
Also don't think we are stupid. Giving a 33% price decrease while giving out 50% of the product is an actual price increase. Don't force your customers to pay more for less.
Also get rid of White Dwarf or give it away for free. After all, it is advertising. Why are you making your customers pay for advertising? Usually companies pay for advertising, not charging others for it.
Don't make us feel like if you could, you would charge us the air we breathe for walking into your store.
I love how many people have a fantasy that GW could just drop prices 30-40% and not have problems with that.
It is rather simple of stop abusing customers (making a codex then making it playable by releasing data slates to extort a bit more). Stop with the weird fragmentation of say like the HH series into a million mini stories and books, similarly a codex should be a codex not a codex and ten dataslates and then there are the supplements...
Listen to what customers want, Chaos wanted customisation of legions, start doing it and you'll sell more.
As people have said community engagement, but the biggest one by far is license out some products.
Understand video games are real and money makes, engage with developers and make it happen. To little is being done on this front but I'm very hopeful about ECrusade.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I love how many people have a fantasy that GW could just drop prices 30-40% and not have problems with that.
Well it's the raising prices that they priced out a lot of people out of their hobby. So what you are telling me, if you are having engine problems with your car, you change the tires? The reason why people left are prices. So if you still have high prices a lot of people will not be coming back no matter what.
So you telling me, if you do something and it keeps hurting, you stop it right? You do something else so it doesn't hurt. So if you keep rising prices and people are leaving because of it, you still keep raising prizes? No you should stop raising prices and then lower them so YOU GET MORE SALES. Only time you don't WANT MORE SALES is when you are comfortable making the small sales you have now. GW doesn't want to grow, it's happy with it's small sales base.
It is rather simple of stop abusing customers (making a codex then making it playable by releasing data slates to extort a bit more). Stop with the weird fragmentation of say like the HH series into a million mini stories and books, similarly a codex should be a codex not a codex and ten dataslates and then there are the supplements...
This is what people were asking for. GW just implemented it differently than what people wanted. I guess people thought they wanted data slates and but they wanted them later because they were use to the every 4 or 5 years redo. They wanted something in a 2 year cycle not the next week after release of the new codex.
Listen to what customers want, Chaos wanted customisation of legions, start doing it and you'll sell more.
Well that is obvious. I am shocked GW doesn't do this. No wonder the AM have those ugly vehicles, Thorax or what ever it's called.
As people have said community engagement, but the biggest one by far is license out some products.
GW is like Wizkids. They can't handle any negative criticism. Then again, GW can't make a good product, so instead of making a good product it's easier to just delete negative comments. When that becomes too much work, just shut everything down.
Then again, GW fostered a sick/venomous/negative environment. They made a lot of us hateful and spiteful. It is only GW who can turn this around. If they don't want to do it, then that means they want to accept it.
Understand video games are real and money makes, engage with developers and make it happen. To little is being done on this front but I'm very hopeful about ECrusade.
Not sure what you are talking about? There is so many video games out there about 40K and some for Fantast, GW is already doing it. Why do you say GW nned to understand video games are real. It is not GW fault that people don't know how to make video games. Then again, it is GW fault for letting CRAPPY 40K video games being made and released though.
Well they had a huge success with Space Marine and it is a great way to build the IP similarly with Dawn of War and they were good games to boot. But the fall of THQ and as such the loss of a number of licenses that were active means nothing is being done to capitalise on them and this is simply a problem of GW not going forward and engaging with the video games industry to get that ball rolling again.
But that is largely because they are a collectibles company, and hate money. Or at least that seems to be the case.
As for the prices no, the prices are actually fine. People will blow £40 on a game or £80 on a night out where I am from but balk at £20 for a box of space marines? You get the time painting and playing and a fairly decent resale value at the end. But regardless of whether or not you agree with that I'll say this:
They have a feduciary responsibility to their shareholders and can't play fast and lose with a 40% drop in prices (we don't even know if that would cover the full costs, I doubt they have that big a margin) and hope that it would be made up in increased sales. What they could do is freeze prices and largely they have been. Not overcharging people for codexs would be a good start.
This thing with the dataslates though, we wanted updates not a wallet grab that feels more like a personal violation and not engineered new codexes that are designed to "need" the data slates.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: As for the prices no, the prices are actually fine. People will blow £40 on a game or £80 on a night out where I am from but balk at £20 for a box of space marines? You get the time painting and playing and a fairly decent resale value at the end. But regardless of whether or not you agree with that I'll say this:
They have a feduciary responsibility to their shareholders and can't play fast and lose with a 40% drop in prices (we don't even know if that would cover the full costs, I doubt they have that big a margin) and hope that it would be made up in increased sales. What they could do is freeze prices and largely they have been. Not overcharging people for codexs would be a good start.
This thing with the dataslates though, we wanted updates not a wallet grab that feels more like a personal violation and not engineered new codexes that are designed to "need" the data slates.
You would have a valid argument if a box of Space Marines was enough to PLAY THE FETHING GAME, but it's not. You need a lot more than "£20 for a box of space marines" to play 40k, that's the problem. Even their "bundles" (even the actual deals) is barely entry-level for a good chunk of cash, that's the issue. Spending $300USD on a boxed army is fine and dandy, but not so much when that boxed army is like 750 points, the bare minimum for any kind of serious game, because you have to spend a lot more to actually get a decent sized army.
Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
And GW costs less than a Ferrari, so what?
The point is a comparison to other war games because they're competing for the same customers' money.
Yeah it is disposable leisure income. It is entirely relevant. What is GW's competition? There is no one out there with their quality of sculpts or scale and design. In this they remain a very very good company, it is the management that let them down.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah it is disposable leisure income. It is entirely relevant. What is GW's competition? There is no one out there with their quality of sculpts or scale and design. In this they remain a very very good company, it is the management that let them down.
Ah there we go, the standard "Nobody can compare with quality or scale" argument. No, you are wrong. GW has a lot of competition: Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Infinity, Bolt Action, Kings of War, etc. All this crap really boils down to is "There's no competing large scale 28mm grimdark sci-fi wargame with Space Marines called Warhammer 40k".
GW prices should be compared only to other wargames, not to any sort of disposable leisure income; if you collect antique cars it can be very expensive, that doesn't mean that GW's price are okay because some unrelated activity costs a lot more. This kind of fallacy argument really needs to stop being made, because not only is it incorrect but it's insulting to people who make actual comparisons as it comes off as being completely ignorant and dismissive of the actual argument, comparing apples to oranges to prove a nonexistent point.
Yes that is entirely comparable when I evaluate my hobby be it cars, drinking or wargaming I am looking at the value for money I get out of it and how I utilise my disposable income relative to that.
Since I like 40k, the setting, the models and other associated things comparing it to another wargame would be just as irrelevant as I give no gaks about them. Unless there were two competing companies using the same IP.
Ultimately I feel I am getting value for money, I think comparisons show higher quality and they aren't a new company that just does models, there is all sorts of other baggage with 40k that add to that value.
I'm fine with that, and having personally run a few businesses where people thought I was making a fortune, when realistically they had no idea of the hidden costs, I wouldn't advocate a 40% cut in prices without knowing their bottom lines. I think its ignorant to do so.
To quote a representative of Reaper: "While I agree we are competitors, there are major differences in how each of our companies approach marketing and sales, let alone the products themselves, and the intended purposes/uses of them.
We try to keep the prices of our models well within the industry norms, and on the low side of average in fact, where we can afford to do so. Nevertheless, there will be model for model comparisons where GW comes off cheaper, as I am sure there are comparions one could find where a Reaper figure come out cheaper than a comparably sized GW model.
We're just happy to provide high quality figures as an alternative. "
It might be a valid comparison for you yourself, but it's not a valid comparison for a discussion on it. Comparing wargame to wargame GW is almost always more expensive, at least in initial "investment", than any other wargame.
Jaq Draco lives brings up a great point. It is disposable leisure income. So we can compare to other companies similar to GW, and video games and drinking out, and movies and dining out etc etc.
The problem is, Games Workshop is not giving me VALUE. For other people it can be great Value. Buying cigarettes on the Indian Reserve is way cheaper and great value. For them, not for me. GW value may be great for others, but it's not.
When I rather spend $100 going out or what not than on GW, that that means I am getting better VALUE that what GW is giving me.
So when people are saying is costing too much, that to me means, they are not getting as much Value that they would be from another game or what ever else. There is more value in video games, or smoking, or drinking or even going out to see a movie. Yes going to a movie with a couple could cost $50 for a nite, and that could be a box of Space Marines, but there is more Value in going out than buying a box of Space Marines.
So it comes down to value not how much something costs to something else. I am getting less value buying a book or rules at $100 from GW since it will only last 2 years now.
While GW can be said they make the best plastic miniatures (can be debated) GW is offering less and less value over time now.
I don't mind paying full price for GW stuff. Problem is when I don't get the value for what I am paying, they why purchase something?
Why go out and buy a $170 mini (Imperial Knight) if nobody wants to play against it? Where is the value in that? Where is the value in paying almost $100 in rules if it's only for less than 2 years?
I think we'd be more kindly disposed to the model prices (but probably a price freeze over a long time, they've forgone yearly price increases btw but increased prices as new sculpts arrive) if they weren't increasing prices of codexes then adding formations on top through data slates.
Formations should be free, with all the rules only in the codex, so you pay once and everything else comes for free.
They are trying to get more money out of every person and not just through model sales and I think that means they aren't so much valuing us as customers but seeing what they can get out of us. Codexes, well I don't care if they went hardback and are nicer, they are still more expensive no matter how you justify it. I don't want pretty in my codex (and they don't even have good artwork in anymore, just photos).
So yeah I think it is less about individual model cost and the gestalt of the cost of the game and where the value is in the rest of it.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I think we'd be more kindly disposed to the model prices (but probably a price freeze over a long time, they've forgone yearly price increases btw but increased prices as new sculpts arrive) if they weren't increasing prices of codexes then adding formations on top through data slates.
Formations should be free, with all the rules only in the codex, so you pay once and everything else comes for free.
They are trying to get more money out of every person and not just through model sales and I think that means they aren't so much valuing us as customers but seeing what they can get out of us. Codexes, well I don't care if they went hardback and are nicer, they are still more expensive no matter how you justify it. I don't want pretty in my codex (and they don't even have good artwork in anymore, just photos).
So yeah I think it is less about individual model cost and the gestalt of the cost of the game and where the value is in the rest of it.
Well said. I am not a coffee drinker but the saying can be said none the less. While yes that mini costs $170, I could for go Timmies for a while (Timmies for those that don't know is Tim Hortons a coffee chain in Canada that millions love) to get it. Problem is, where is the Value in forgoing the Timmies when I don't see the value in the mini. I get more satisfaction getting a Timmies.
Codices became 100% more expensive and getting less value. Nice on the book shelf, a pain to carry around because of being bigger and heavier. Less value more expensive. Also a you said, data slates and the supplemental books that come out one weak later after the release of a codex. Now instead of paying 100% more you feel like you need to pay 200% more or Quadrupling the price of what should have been a normal codex.
Why doesn't GW give me value? What is wrong for paying for expensive books if in the return I will be getting free data slates and formations? I swear, if GW could charge us for the air we breathe when in their stores they would.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah it is disposable leisure income. It is entirely relevant. What is GW's competition? There is no one out there with their quality of sculpts or scale and design. In this they remain a very very good company, it is the management that let them down.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah it is disposable leisure income. It is entirely relevant. What is GW's competition? There is no one out there with their quality of sculpts or scale and design. In this they remain a very very good company, it is the management that let them down.
A Games Workshop model
Not a Games Workshop model
Geez wonder where they got there inspiration from for power armoured gladiators from. I mean ffs if you are going to pick a rather silly bad example instead of any of the amazing GW or FW sculpts that are so detailed they are just wonderful to look at and paint...and contrast it with someone else doing it you could at least pick someone who isn't basically creating something obviously designed to be used in 40k!
It basically says, yeah there are some other quality sculptors out there, more or less nothing to match the IP though. And GW don't just do a few quality sculpts, it is army after army and the FW stuff is a huge range with the creation of heresy era stuff.
Also I find Scibor rather silly looking, something not right about them at all. I don't think its a good comparison.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah it is disposable leisure income. It is entirely relevant. What is GW's competition? There is no one out there with their quality of sculpts or scale and design. In this they remain a very very good company, it is the management that let them down.
It basically says, yeah there are some other quality sculptors out there, more or less nothing to match the IP though. And GW don't just do a few quality sculpts, it is army after army and the FW stuff is a huge range with the creation of heresy era stuff.
Need a hand moving those goal posts, or are you good by yourself?
It's a great comparison? Just saying it's not a great comparison means nothing without an explanation.
Just look at the detail. Once looks like a cartoon the other one looks serious and grid mark. Even the painting of the "armoured man" looks so much better than what GW is putting out now.
While one is a copy of the others work, it goes to show you how much better someone else can do your own work.
Is this competition? Nope. This is a small company with a couple of to my mind mediocre sculpts based off GW IP. I don't think I am moving goal posts as these aren't competition they are tagging onto GW.
Now instead of picking the worst GW model why not compare it to one of their best?
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Is this competition? Nope. This is a small company with a couple of to my mind mediocre sculpts based off GW IP. I don't think I am moving goal posts as these aren't competition they are tagging onto GW.
Now instead of picking the worst GW model why not compare it to one of their best?
LOL what are we doing debating each other today? I love a good debate. Problem with that mini, is GW is not releasing good minis like that anymore. Pirate Orks, A Pregnant Robot looking Ork, and a Space Wolf riding a sleigh. Not great things coming out of GW lately. I am almost dreading what Blood Angel players are going to get.
GW was once great. Not so anymore now. Creativity in minis are considerably lacking now. While I will agree the Imperial Knight is an awesome mini, what has GW produced in the last 6 months that make you go OH MY GOD THAT IS AWESOME? I know when my army came out, Tyranids, it was lack luster in the mini department. Nothing there that I had to buy right away. Astra Militarium or was it the other one? (See name eludes me, so not really exciting there.) Now I finally stopped laughing when ever I look at their Torax or tank or car, what ever it is. Now I just groan when ever a pic of it is shown.
So as the title says, How to turn GW around, not dwelling in the past.
As GW treats us, what have we bought from them lately, we an turn that around and say, "What has GW done for us lately?"
No, I know, let's compare two models with very similar subjects, rather than arbitrarily comparing across ranges.
You also need to educate yourself on the definition of "competition." Any company selling product into the same market is competition, there are merely degrees of significance.
You also need to learn the difference between subjective opinion (you don't like the Warmachine model? Fair enough, neither do I) and quantifiable fact (that Warmachine model isn't hugely more expensive than that single, infantry sized, very low points in game, Commisar)
You're reusing the same one old model? Pathetic. Try comparing the commissar to something else? Try looking at the marines, the eldar, the Imp Knight. Not just find a model that is pretty poor (clearly fantasy) and keep harping on about it.
And no competition in war games would be privateer press and the like not some little hobby shop producing the odd models. I looked at PP and I thought the designs and sculpts were terrible.
Davor: You are right the choices of what to sculpt has been terrible of late admittedly, I mean a santa sleigh? But then again they've always seemed to have a child like interpretation of SW. Wolfy Canis Dog Lording Wolfborn, Half expected them to replace longfang missile launchers with a wolf on a stick firing out howls.
Basically I'm absolutely certain these things and a lot of the other problems mentioned are dragging GW down and really making it a frustrating hobby at times. But they are very good at some of what they do and the competition seems pretty poor in comparison. A lot of this is subjective of course.
What exactly makes Beast 09 crap, beyond the fact you apparently don't like the aesthetic? Besides, if you're talking about comparing sculpts, you're comparing a character to a Warjack. Compare a Dreadnought to Beast 09.
Here's a better comparison:
GW:
Spoiler:
Not GW:
Spoiler:
Those two figures are pretty comparable IMO. A slightly different look as one is a sci-fi Commissar, and the other is basically a steampunk Commissar; Kommandant Irusk has slightly more small detail, but is slightly more chunky. But by all means go ahead, say how the PP figure is "crap" presumably because it's not a sci-fi Commissar with a laspistol.
Well yeah I'd still say that is pretty crap in comparison. Aesthetics, detailing etc. A lot of subjective but a little objective in my critique.
But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Well yeah I'd still say that is pretty crap in comparison. Aesthetics, detailing etc. A lot of subjective but a little objective in my critique.
But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
We do give them their dues; very few of us have said that GW figures are bad, we've said they aren't worth anywhere near the price they are asking and that other games are cheaper. It's always the pro-GW people who will make comparisons based on quality, aesthetics, etc. and use that to somehow justify paying $30 for a plastic monopose figure or hundreds for an army.
Hell I've even said many times that I want to play 40k again, but I cannot justify spending the money on a starting army when I can buy a normal-sized army for other games.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: You're reusing the same one old model? Pathetic. Try comparing the commissar to something else? Try looking at the marines, the eldar, the Imp Knight. Not just find a model that is pretty poor (clearly fantasy) and keep harping on about it.
And no competition in war games would be privateer press and the like not some little hobby shop producing the odd models. I looked at PP and I thought the designs and sculpts were terrible.
Firstly, I've been editing extra images back into my post, so go take another look.
Secondly, I'd recommend adjusting your tone, you're coming across a little rule one-y
Thirdly, competition, in wargames or any other business is exactly what I said it was, and won't cease to be that because you said so, sorry kid.
Most of this is subjective so we'll just agree to disagree young man. On the competition point I fundamentally disagree but forget it, no interest in going on about it.
The quality of sculpts is irrelevant to the problems of GW which mostly relate to how they treat their customer base anyway.
It really isn't, the only thing in this discussion that's subjective is if one likes or doesn't like a specific sculpt by a specific company.
I will grant that you appear to have a specific agenda, and unless you're willing to open yourself up to the possibility that people don't "hate" (shudder) on GW just because, that further discussion is moot at this point.
Jaq, just because you love the IP doesn't mean GW makes a good game. In fact, the game frequently goes against the fluff.
The Beast 09 figure I find to be awesome, better than a SM dreadnaught. But that's subjective.
Another subjective. The Taurox, santa's floating bathtub and Murderfang McMurderson I find to be somewhat embarrassingly awful miniatures.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Most of this is subjective so we'll just agree to disagree young man.
The quality of sculpts is irrelevant to the problems of GW which mostly relate to how they treat their customer base anyway.
The problem is what they charge not the quality of sculpts.
No, by and large it is what they charge and the quality of their sculpts.
Together those make up the quality known as Value - and how they interact determines what the Value of a miniature is.
By and large, GW makes better looking miniatures than Mantic - but I have bought a heck of a lot more Mantic over the last year or two than GW over the last five years. (With the two most recent years registering zero in the GW column.)
In that case it is the price.
I have bought resin steampunk miniatures that cost more than most GW miniatures - and I felt that they were worth the money - in that case the Value came from the quality of the sculpting.
GW needs to improve Value, whether by lowering prices or increasing quality. *EDIT* Or increasing what comes in the box - be it number of figures or options... but adding a choice between flamer, melta-gun, or plasma-gun does not add as much value as adding in a second squad - nor does having options to turn Witch Elves into uber-elite Witch Elves - since the squad will only be one or the other.
As it stands, they are just not worth the money that they are charging for miniatures that are made of either high impact plastic or really crappy resin. (I like resin - but Finecast is just not a good example of the material.)
$105 for a two frame plastic Nagash? Uhm... no. For that exact same amount of money I could get a Leviathan from Dreamforge - a better model, larger, with a heck of a lot more poseability.
That Leviathan has more Value, at least to me. (And would be easy to turn into something a it more steampunk.)
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
1) 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos costs £95
2) Where are you going on a night out that costs £95?
Bottle of spirits: ~£15 (+ ~£5 for coke/lemonade/whatever to mix if you want) Bottle of wine: £7-10 20 pack of carlsberg: £15
So, pick your poison. That will come to around £20 max
Then pre-drink until tipsy/drunk.
So then you're apparently spending £75 on getting to where you're going, paying entry, buying more drinks then getting home.
So again, where are you going that costs that much?
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
1) 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos costs £95
2) Where are you going on a night out that costs £95?
Bottle of spirits: ~£15 (+ ~£5 for coke/lemonade/whatever to mix if you want)
Bottle of wine: £7-10
20 pack of carlsberg: £15
So, pick your poison. That will come to around £20 max
Then pre-drink until tipsy/drunk.
So then you're apparently spending £75 on getting to where you're going, paying entry, buying more drinks then getting home.
So again, where are you going that costs that much?
2 Pints Sea Dog Stout - $10.
Movie tickets for 2 - $25.
Latest season of Sherlock on DVD - $40.
Waking up the next morning next to your girlfriend - priceless.
And that boxed set of Sherlock is going to take more than a night, so that $40 will be shared over a full week. (The downside... Megan has a thing about Cumberbatch. )
Also... we skipped the movie, and went straight to the Sherlock. (We wanted to see a movie, but not any of the ones that were playing.)
Also, Sherlock is really good - my hopes were low, but they shattered by how much we enjoyed that series.
TheAuldGrump wrote: 2 Pints Sea Dog Stout - $10.
Movie tickets for 2 - $25.
Latest season of Sherlock on DVD - $40.
Waking up the next morning next to your girlfriend - priceless.
And that boxed set of Sherlock is going to take more than a night, so that $40 will be shared over a full week. (The downside... Megan has a thing about Cumberbatch. )
Also... we skipped the movie, and went straight to the Sherlock. (We wanted to see a movie, but not any of the ones that were playing.)
Also, Sherlock is really good - my hopes were low, but they shattered by how much we enjoyed that series.
The Auld Grump
I like the cut of your jib, sir
Though when it comes to me and my girlfriend a single series of a tv programme usually doesn't last a week. We're binge watchers
Jaq Draco lives wrote: But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
'The internet' doesn't 'love to hate' GW.
GW cop a lot of criticism, certainly. In most cases, they've earnt it... but they still get plenty of credit where it is due, as is evidenced by the release threads for any of their better models... see the News and Rumours threads for the new Stormtroopers and Knights (at least up until people saw their rules) as a couple of examples straight off the top of my head.
The big problem with GW's model range isn't so much quality as it is consistency. Yes, they have some excellent models in their range. But some of the stuff that gets approved for release (pumbagore being a prime example, or Murderfang more recently) just leaves people scratching their heads and wondering how these models can co-exist in a range that includes stuff like Nagash and Lelith.
Also, GW is more expensive than my other new hobby: boxing. I don't need to buy things anymore, I just have to get punched a lot.
Does that mean GW is expensive when I compare it to that? See how absurd it is if you compare two entirely different things? Everything would be expensive if your hobby is like, collecting local twigs.
Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
Azreal13 wrote: Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
I... thought those were Pocky.... *Backs away, slowly*
It retails for around $120-$140, and is available in a single pose.
This is the Bandai MG Jesta kit for Gundam, which is also almost the same height as the Imperial Knight, so it works well as a proxy:
Spoiler:
I can get a second one off Amazon right now for around $50.00.
It comes with a beam saber, the rifle, and a shield which can be moved around to cover various facings, so it already comes equipped to cover for the weapons and gear on the Imperial Knight titan.
It is also completely poseable, even down to the fingers.
Now, while I like the aesthetic of the IK, the idea that I'd be paying over 2 times as much for a "premium" model that is monopose is laughable.
insaniak wrote: But some of the stuff that gets approved for release (pumbagore being a prime example, or Murderfang more recently) just leaves people scratching their heads and wondering how these models can co-exist in a range that includes stuff like Nagash
WayneTheGame wrote: What exactly makes Beast 09 crap, beyond the fact you apparently don't like the aesthetic? Besides, if you're talking about comparing sculpts, you're comparing a character to a Warjack. Compare a Dreadnought to Beast 09.
Here's a better comparison:
GW:
Spoiler:
Not GW:
Spoiler:
Those two figures are pretty comparable IMO. A slightly different look as one is a sci-fi Commissar, and the other is basically a steampunk Commissar; Kommandant Irusk has slightly more small detail, but is slightly more chunky. But by all means go ahead, say how the PP figure is "crap" presumably because it's not a sci-fi Commissar with a laspistol.
To be fair, whilst pp metals are generally pretty solid, that irusk sculpt isn't the best by any means.though his upper body looks quite beefy (I remember the jokes that he'd been hitting the gym), His body is very much out of proportion, with gorilla arms that reach his knees, tiny legs that comprise about a third of his body etc. I'd much rather use sorscha or strakhov as a comparison to be fair. I was almost thinking of converting Malakov into a 'young irusk' sculpt. then again, that out of scale thing is frequently also a feature of gw's work. Heck, that commissar has a holster the size of his thigh. Forgeworld stuff Is generally quite excellent, the regular gw stuff often comes up short when compared to it, if you ask me.
I have an agenda? I am quite willing to accept that the IP doesn't make the game. I hate what they did to Tyranids and Orks, that they went completely against the fluff in the game. That they absolutely hate assault and have overdeveloped shooting and the amount of AP2 to the point where it is a slugfest.
Me talking about the quality of the sculpts and the things GW does well doesn't mean I don't have a problem with GW. I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW. That there are individual groups out there that can sculpt as well but tabletop gaming companies where I could pick up and play an alternative system. That is GW for me.
But all of this arguement started based off people saying that GW could take a 40% haircut in what they charge. The arguments of value and aesthetics and sculpting arose from that.
Does anyone have any concrete figures to say what their margins and costs are as to whether or not we even know if they have bloated margins?
Does anyone have any concrete figures to say what their margins and costs are as to whether or not we even know if they have bloated margins?
GW's margins average about 70% on their price to retailers. If you add the cost of their own retail arm, then their margins will drop significantly though. Solution? Shut down all GW stores, they've been nothing but a millstone around the companies neck for a number of years now!
If it is true that GW has the best quality models something else needs to be done to turn the company around, because it suffered 8% drop in sales last year despite its wonderful models.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW.
*highlighted bit for emphasis*
le sigh. GW isnt the only game with a large catalogue of lore. If anything, I'd argue gw don't necessarily have 'decades of lore' to hand, what they have largely amounts to 'lore, written decades ago'.
Now, with respect, I will tell you about privateer press' lore. Simple fact is that Despite claiming they lack decades of lore and fluff build up, I don't think you have looked hard enough. Warmachine, for example, has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now - 2001 I think, and the fluff has been constantly developed and pushed forward since then. It's an evolving timeline for one - we are about four years into hostilities with the current story arc. And the plot has been advancing forward steadily since warmachine amounted to a few border skirmishes four years ago to the current total war scenario.
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that other games dont have well developed backgrounds. . Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up.
the first place for fluff, as you can guess is the rulebook and army books for both warmachine and hordes. they have the ongoing fiction, as well as character back stories, unit descriptions and the FOW books often describe some of the logistics, and actual nuts and bolts of army organisation, and history. they're good solid reads (i love the retribution book in particular, itsbackground material is phenomenol!) but generally, act as a great intro. If you are interested, the fluff goes all the way back to Mk1 and the original books from over 10 years ago. if you get the PP reader app, you can download all the old books for a song. its well worth it, IMO. the hordes expansions (mutagenesis and evolution iirc) have some really excellent story material.
the second place is PPs magazine. No Quarter. it is an excellent read. pick it up at your FLGS, and if you want the older copies, check out the PP reader app, where you can get all the old issues for a few pence. there are short stories throughout the magazine. they also run very popular and very well written fluff articles in the magazine. For example, you have the Gavyn Kyle files, which elaborates on, explores and deepends the fiction behind a lot of the "names" in the game. Not just casters. But other famous individuals too. Sometimes its units (there was one exploring the history and culture of the kayazy). Another great one is the Guts n Gears files, which are like the GK files, but are less about individuals, and more about the fluff behind unit types and warjack chassis (where they were made, how long they were in service for, development history etc). the NQ magazine is well worth a read - it has some excellent content and is well worth its price tag. i think they're re-releasing some of the fiction via skull island as well (see below). there is also regular fiction which includes both once off short stories, and stories that continue on the arc from those in books - for example, what happened to Kallus at the end of Domination is explained in one.
the third place (and my personal favourite) is the RPG material. Warmachine originated as a D20RPG using the DnD open source licence. their very first adventure was called "the witchfire trilogy" and is a great read, with some interesting little nuggets. the "old" D20 material comprised the character guides (which ahave a lot of the basic information, cosmology, history etc) 2 monsternomicons (with huge bits of info on infernals, and skorne culture/history, although its generally about the monsters that inhabit immoren), a small exansion on the port of Five FIngers, and the excellent world guide. I cannot recommend these enough; the World GUide in particular. its epic. you can literally smell the smoke when you read it. they're very, very engrossing, and do a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - not just the history, but crime&punishment, trades and learning, entertainment, finance, language, cosmology, and lots of information on locations, towns, cities, forts, and the big names in all of them. Now, the old material is still online (if you know where to look; winkwinknudgenudge) but they're also all being updated by PP into a new RPG series using a proprietary rules system based off of the wargame. So far they have the IKRPG core rules, five fingers and the excellent Kings Nations and Gods books. again, all well worth the read. upcoming is a new monsternomicon and the iron kingdoms: unleashed "complimentary" RPG which focuses on adventures in the wilds, and expands on the races to include tharn, farrow etc. Im quite looking forward to that one! i think thw RPG material on its own is stellar, and really does a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - far more than youd expect from a regular wargame.
the fourth place is PPs publishing wing. skull island expeditions.https://skullislandx.com/
they dont yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but whats there is very solid. i will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). the iron kingdoms excursions series is a series of short stories that are quite fun to read too.
Azreal13 wrote: Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
I... thought those were Pocky.... *Backs away, slowly*
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW.
*highlighted bit for emphasis*
le sigh. GW isnt the only game with a large catalogue of lore. If anything, I'd argue gw don't necessarily have 'decades of lore' to hand, what they have largely amounts to 'lore, written decades ago'.
Now, with respect, I will tell you about privateer press' lore. Simple fact is that Despite claiming they lack decades of lore and fluff build up, I don't think you have looked hard enough. Warmachine, for example, has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now - 2001 I think, and the fluff has been constantly developed and pushed forward since then. It's an evolving timeline for one - we are about four years into hostilities with the current story arc. And the plot has been advancing forward steadily since warmachine amounted to a few border skirmishes four years ago to the current total war scenario.
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that other games dont have well developed backgrounds. . Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up.
the first place for fluff, as you can guess is the rulebook and army books for both warmachine and hordes. they have the ongoing fiction, as well as character back stories, unit descriptions and the FOW books often describe some of the logistics, and actual nuts and bolts of army organisation, and history. they're good solid reads (i love the retribution book in particular, itsbackground material is phenomenol!) but generally, act as a great intro. If you are interested, the fluff goes all the way back to Mk1 and the original books from over 10 years ago. if you get the PP reader app, you can download all the old books for a song. its well worth it, IMO. the hordes expansions (mutagenesis and evolution iirc) have some really excellent story material.
the second place is PPs magazine. No Quarter. it is an excellent read. pick it up at your FLGS, and if you want the older copies, check out the PP reader app, where you can get all the old issues for a few pence. there are short stories throughout the magazine. they also run very popular and very well written fluff articles in the magazine. For example, you have the Gavyn Kyle files, which elaborates on, explores and deepends the fiction behind a lot of the "names" in the game. Not just casters. But other famous individuals too. Sometimes its units (there was one exploring the history and culture of the kayazy). Another great one is the Guts n Gears files, which are like the GK files, but are less about individuals, and more about the fluff behind unit types and warjack chassis (where they were made, how long they were in service for, development history etc). the NQ magazine is well worth a read - it has some excellent content and is well worth its price tag. i think they're re-releasing some of the fiction via skull island as well (see below). there is also regular fiction which includes both once off short stories, and stories that continue on the arc from those in books - for example, what happened to Kallus at the end of Domination is explained in one.
the third place (and my personal favourite) is the RPG material. Warmachine originated as a D20RPG using the DnD open source licence. their very first adventure was called "the witchfire trilogy" and is a great read, with some interesting little nuggets. the "old" D20 material comprised the character guides (which ahave a lot of the basic information, cosmology, history etc) 2 monsternomicons (with huge bits of info on infernals, and skorne culture/history, although its generally about the monsters that inhabit immoren), a small exansion on the port of Five FIngers, and the excellent world guide. I cannot recommend these enough; the World GUide in particular. its epic. you can literally smell the smoke when you read it. they're very, very engrossing, and do a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - not just the history, but crime&punishment, trades and learning, entertainment, finance, language, cosmology, and lots of information on locations, towns, cities, forts, and the big names in all of them. Now, the old material is still online (if you know where to look; winkwinknudgenudge) but they're also all being updated by PP into a new RPG series using a proprietary rules system based off of the wargame. So far they have the IKRPG core rules, five fingers and the excellent Kings Nations and Gods books. again, all well worth the read. upcoming is a new monsternomicon and the iron kingdoms: unleashed "complimentary" RPG which focuses on adventures in the wilds, and expands on the races to include tharn, farrow etc. Im quite looking forward to that one! i think thw RPG material on its own is stellar, and really does a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - far more than youd expect from a regular wargame.
the fourth place is PPs publishing wing. skull island expeditions.https://skullislandx.com/ they dont yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but whats there is very solid. i will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). the iron kingdoms excursions series is a series of short stories that are quite fun to read too.
This. Exalted as much as I can exalt it. PP has great stories and characters that are more complex than they might appear at first glance. The way the histories intertwine is fascinating. For example, in one book I read how after a major battle, a bunch of Cryx, a bunch of undead pirates and raiders) came by and stole bodies. I was "What the heck?" But then in the Cryx book it explained how they've secretly been building a vast armada and have an empire to rival any other. Any day they will start their invasion of the mainland. Mind was blown. A huge threat and no one's prepared for it. The Convergence of Cyriss fluff is some of my favorite and have a clockwork/Lovecraftian thing going on with a secret goddess whispering into people's dreams telling them to prepare the world for her coming. Unlike Space Marine fluff where every character is just different shades of the same color. (Honor, brotherhood, glory...really, they're all the same.) There are scoundrels fighting for their own causes, people who serve their country but have different dreams and hopes, mercenaries out for revenge or redemption. It's far more varied with no cookie cutter characters.
And there is no reason that you cannot use the fluff from WHFB in Kings of War.
The lore is not tied to the system - heck, GW has changed the system on a regular basis! (And the fluff, too... I hate their three ring binder approach to setting history.)
So, if you want your Knights of the White Wolf then field them. Or buy a mess of Perry War of the Roses minis and call them Knights - Kings of War is about the system, not the setting.
And that is one of the armies with the most distinct (in a 17th C. way) of the WHFB armies. (Pretty sure that early GW mostly just wanted to use their historical figures in a fantasy setting - so you have 13th - 15th C. French and 17th C. Holy Roman Empire. They just took cultural archetypes from our history, and added a fantasy gloss... so, Aztec frog people lived in South America.)
I actually liked the fluff better in the Warhammer 3e days - the setting had more dirt under its fingernails, back then.
For other armies.... The design aesthetic has changed as well. Ghouls have gone through how many changes? (And the current ones... look like crap.)
Do you really think that changing the fluff makes people look at an armored skeleton and go 'What the heck is that?'
Or do they look at it and say 'Armored skeleton'. (Or, more likely, 'Die you undead scum!' A lone skeleton, armored or not, won't last long....)
If you like the fluff, then use the fluff - but that is not a reason to limit your selections.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Does anyone have any concrete figures to say what their margins and costs are as to whether or not we even know if they have bloated margins?
I think they mentioned in one of their annual reports that the cost to produce and package a plastic kit is about 5% of retail. But that was some years ago (stuff was cheaper) and doesn't include overhead (design, infrastructure, their stores, and everything else)
Thing to consider about GW's expensive firesale attempt for a one time sale is that it massivly oversauturates the second hand market.
Good for you GW you just sold an army for 1000 bucks to someone wholl loose intrest in six months, and it will be sold of on ebay how many times 4x-5x times. Thats 3 potential army sales lost.
Second hand isnt a problem itself. but its GW's buisness methods thats oversaturating the market, GW is actually outcompeting themself by shuffeling armies on rich parents.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Those figures are roughly in line with GW's own reported figures, however the conclusion about the retail chain is not as simple as a straight price cut of 50%.
The shops are basically GW's only marketing effort at the moment. If they went, the product would have to compete with all the other wargames on Indy shop shelving, so GW would have to spend a lot more on advertising and promotions.
This might of course be more cost effective anyway than having a retail chain.
Kilkrazy wrote: Those figures are roughly in line with GW's own reported figures, however the conclusion about the retail chain is not as simple as a straight price cut of 50%.
The shops are basically GW's only marketing effort at the moment. If they went, the product would have to compete with all the other wargames on Indy shop shelving, so GW would have to spend a lot more on advertising and promotions.
This might of course be more cost effective anyway than having a retail chain.
It would probably be a good thing if GW actually had to do promotions, community relations, and compete -- it would be healthy for it.
Back when the GW Store was sort of a local hub for the hobby, and they could rely on a pretty large sales staff to be their ambassadors, they could do without. I really don't feel like the retail chain in its vestigial form is "making back its points."
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Not seeing costs for sculpting and design, writing of codex or other support mechanisms in place and other base level costs which your main product must contribute to.
So as it stands though even without those figures those people saying GW could do a 40% price cut are living in cuckoo land unless of course they decide to change their entire company structure.
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Not seeing costs for sculpting and design, writing of codex or other support mechanisms in place and other base level costs which your main product must contribute to.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Not seeing costs for sculpting and design, writing of codex or other support mechanisms in place and other base level costs which your main product must contribute to.
So as it stands though even without those figures those people saying GW could do a 40% price cut are living in cuckoo land unless of course they decide to change their entire company structure.
General design studio costs are probably absorbed into overheads.
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Not seeing costs for sculpting and design, writing of codex or other support mechanisms in place and other base level costs which your main product must contribute to.
So as it stands though even without those figures those people saying GW could do a 40% price cut are living in cuckoo land unless of course they decide to change their entire company structure.
General design studio costs are probably absorbed into overheads.
Exactly, they are accounted in the 24% parcel along with mold making costs and other things like that. Its basically everything that is needed to produce a model from nothing until its a complete product ready for sale.
Fair enough so in that case though I mean a 13% margin doesn't leave a lot of room for change especially when you consider they have trimmed down to a one man store format.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Fair enough so in that case though I mean a 13% margin doesn't leave a lot of room for change especially when you consider they have trimmed down to a one man store format.
Close the stores, voilá, they now have an extra 55% of margin to work with!
Kilkrazy wrote: But with no marketing, and they become reliant on independents they have spent the past few years deliberating grinding down as hard as possible.
They are already heavily reliant on independents (and on their online channel), everywhere that isn't the UK. And how effective are their new 1 man stores, tucked away outside major traffic areas, from a marketing standpoint really?
They've completely cut down on promotional events in these past few years, there are no more official tournaments, no more official conventions, no more global campaigns. Heck, there aren't even any more GW store tournaments or campaigns to help drum up interest for the game. How big of a loss would it really be, from a purely marketing stand point, if all those stores just went away?
Reconnect with customers through social media. Begin running contests and begin beta programs immediately.
Reach out to the Independents you've crapped all over and begin supporting them properly. (Losing their loyalty directly feeds both funds and more importantly players to your competition.) Begin closing all non UKGW stores.
Once you have established your beta program begin development of 2 new games.
They are both to be gateway skirmish level games for your two flagship systems. Use your existing strong range of miniatures for both games.
If people have a fun engaging game to buy into that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars just to start, they will more willingly begin playing your mass battle game when doing so is only a couple units and a rulebook away. Even if they don't that is still sales you weren't getting before.
I agree with Killkrazy, GW plc are in a very fragile position right now.
The warning signs were there before and after the LoTR boom.(2000, / 2005.)
The B&M stores were functioning as mainly 'loss leading hobby centers' that added value to the product range,but were costly to maintain.
A competent C.E.O or chairman would have had a complete and in depth look at the way GW plc used sales and marketing to promote their product range/hobby.
And looked at the social media/ internet as a more cost effective way to promote and retail GW plc product.
Promoting the hobby with some thing similar to the Outriders program , where 'GW Hobby Managers', help and support local clubs, LFGS, and gaming groups organize fun events like tutorials , campaigns and tournaments.
This would have allowed GW plc to scale back retail chain slowly over time, to allow GW plc to maximize returns on all revenue streams .
Rather than try to change the way the world works to fit how Tom Kirby wants the world to trade with GW plc.(Like it was back in 1992.)
I agree with TAG, I think that Tom Kirby believed all he had to do was cut costs, raise prices to maintain turn over in the short term, and GW would be bought out by a big company like Hasbro, and he would retire with a massive pay out.
When GW plc did not get bought out ,Tom Kirby hoped the Hobbit would allow them easy success like the LoTR license did.
However,his attempt at maximizing profits off the Hobbit licence, over priced the product range effectively culling interest in the Hobbit minatures in many cases.
The actions needed now to repair the damage caused by Kirby and his cronies is quite extensive, and requires the skills and mindset the current corporate managers simply do not have.
I was not proposing just shutting all the GW B&M stores over night.
But find ways to communicate with and build up the players base , to be able to minimize dependence on GWs costly retail chain.
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Not seeing costs for sculpting and design, writing of codex or other support mechanisms in place and other base level costs which your main product must contribute to.
So as it stands though even without those figures those people saying GW could do a 40% price cut are living in cuckoo land unless of course they decide to change their entire company structure.
Cost of sales is ~37k
Revenue is ~ 124k
Cost of sales includes all development costs, production costs, basically everything to get a concept from the creator's brain to the shop shelf.
So an average cost per item is approx 29% of RRP before tax. This is quite a jump from last year (which was around 23% IIRC)
The issue that occurs and eats into the margin is the non product related costs, ie the stores, if it weren't for the massive overhead of running the stores and employing staff, GW would be making bucketloads of cash even with the declining income and sales.
As it stands, they could still significantly alter the contents of the boxes to include more without a great impact to the margin per box, as cost per sprue will be tiny once designed and the mould created, the trick would be balancing the increase in unit sales against the drop in revenue (people would only buy 1x10 man box, as opposed to 2x5 man boxes for a 10 man unit, but would enough extra people buy the better value box to offset that?)
On a personal note, I'd happily hand over £30 for a ten man Sternguard box, but have not purchased any of the 5 man boxes at that price, and don't really intend to.
Lanrak wrote: From my friend who works at GW Nottingham.
The cost of manufacturing plastic kit boxes is appx 6% of RRP.
The cost including all overheads except retail and logistics is appx 24% of RRP
Logistic is appx 8% of RRP.
So that is appx 32% of RRP includes every thing apart from the cost of the retail chain.
The retail chain costs appx 55% of the retail price.(leaving about 13% clear profit.)
So if GW plc just used independent retailers and their own web store to sell product , they could cut prices by 50% and still make 5% more clear profit.
Imagine how much more profitable they might be if they ditched the retail chain, engage independent retailers as an ally (instead of competitor), and actually conduct a little bit of advertising.
Kilkrazy wrote: What GW should do -- I have made this point often in the past -- is make better use of their retail chain by selling more than two products.
Well, three products (40k, WHFB, and Citadel paints/hobby stuff.)
Do you think they'd be better off launching (or re-launching) other lines, or bringing in other producers/partners to try to make the retail space more profitable?
Kilkrazy wrote: What GW should do -- I have made this point often in the past -- is make better use of their retail chain by selling more than two products.
Well, three products (40k, WHFB, and Citadel paints/hobby stuff.)
Do you think they'd be better off launching (or re-launching) other lines, or bringing in other producers/partners to try to make the retail space more profitable?
I was going to comment, but didn't then I saw your post. Well GW also sells Vision, White Dwarf, Paints, brushes, glues, drills (tools) etc. So they do sell more than 2 or 3 product ranges.
Thing is, GW can get away with just 2 lines, problem is, they have no respect for their customer and put themselves in where they are now. Just imagine if GW actually cared what their customers thought, cared what they wanted and gave customers a product they really enjoy and don't complain about.
Problem is, GW seems to be stuck in the 80's or is that 90's mentality that just doesn't work in this day and age. I am surprised that kind of mentality actually worked in the 80's and 90's.
Bring back Necromunda...blood bowl and all the other things we'd love to buy on a related note.
I tend to think they have an oversaturation of stores if my area is anything to go by. We got newcastle and the metrocenter and if people are going to one they are going to the other yet we have a store in both. Could shut down the metrocenter one and have two members of staff in newcastle and actually run some games.
I tend to agree when people say close stores cut prices, not sure what bricks and mortar do these days compared to other things (that GW are TERRIBLE at) I mean if you closed 30-50% of the stores even and then offered a 20% cut it is still something.
Kilkrazy wrote: What GW should do -- I have made this point often in the past -- is make better use of their retail chain by selling more than two products.
Well, three products (40k, WHFB, and Citadel paints/hobby stuff.)
Do you think they'd be better off launching (or re-launching) other lines, or bringing in other producers/partners to try to make the retail space more profitable?
I was going to comment, but didn't then I saw your post. Well GW also sells Vision, White Dwarf, Paints, brushes, glues, drills (tools) etc. So they do sell more than 2 or 3 product ranges.
Visions and White Dwarf really don't stand on their own as product ranges; they are catalogues of other products and without 40K/WHF they wouldn't exist. Hobby tools/materials are a stand alone product range though - there's still a reason to buy them even if you're not interested in 40K/WHF, but they are predominantly a support range for their mini's, as most non-GW gamers have already found better alternatives (I've almost entirely switched to Vallejo for paints).
Kilkrazy wrote: What GW should do -- I have made this point often in the past -- is make better use of their retail chain by selling more than two products.
Well, three products (40k, WHFB, and Citadel paints/hobby stuff.)
Do you think they'd be better off launching (or re-launching) other lines, or bringing in other producers/partners to try to make the retail space more profitable?
Yes.
The hobby supplies are an accessory range not a core product line. No-one goes to GW just to buy hobby supplies, they buy hobby supplies for doing Warhammer.
Seasoned wargamers and modellers don't buy a lot of GW hobby supplies even for Warhammer because GW do not sell everything you might need (saws, airbrushes, plastic card, epoxy cement), their stuff is overpriced and sometimes lower quality than you can get elsewhere.
If you could go into a GW and buy Fantasy Flight boxed games like Runebound or X-Wing, RPG books, or the new 5th edition AD&D, Space Hulk, Blood Bowl and that kind of thing, GW would attract a lot more customers who might then also buy Warhammer stuff.
This is basically turning GW back into the general games retailing company they used to be.
I do see alot of posts regaring a missing community as in a Forum / facebook pages and so on.
The first thing that pops up in my mind, for searching a reason for missing a community would be the flood of criticism on the facebook page/forums.
As seen on many threads on Dakka, alot of people have a lot of criticism on GW. I think they are really afraid on being nuked for everything, and will cost them even more ptoentially costumers as they will read all the criticism of others.
It sounds more like a country which is lead by dictators; do what they want, but no one is allowed/able to say something about it.
It really shows how GW thinks about a community / costumers.
Rachnaros wrote: I do see alot of posts regaring a missing community as in a Forum / facebook pages and so on.
The first thing that pops up in my mind, for searching a reason for missing a community would be the flood of criticism on the facebook page/forums.
As seen on many threads on Dakka, alot of people have a lot of criticism on GW. I think they are really afraid on being nuked for everything, and will cost them even more ptoentially costumers as they will read all the criticism of others.
It sounds more like a country which is lead by dictators; do what they want, but no one is allowed/able to say something about it.
It really shows how GW thinks about a community / costumers.
I wonder if they ever thought about...I don't know....maybe addressing those criticisms? That might be something new to try.
Those criticisms are irrelevant because that kind of person doesn't buy GW products. GW sells to people who enthusiastically buy its product offerings.
Kilkrazy wrote: Those criticisms are irrelevant because that kind of person doesn't buy GW products. GW sells to people who enthusiastically buy its product offerings.
Why should that be irrelevant? New and existing users will join a community (forum), which ofcourse will be flooded with people making threads about the costs and so on.
So; like i said on another thread; when you buy Island of blood you may assume you can play the game (which is extremely unbalanced, no army books etc etc). So, finally after whining about a year to his parents that he wants Island of blood for christmas (because he cannot afford himself), and finally got it, to then find out he can't even play the game........ This is just an example of criticism you will get.
Secondly, a community as in a forum can provide you alot of knowledge before buying something (regardless the product / game / car or what). So when i want to buy for lets say a Mercedes c63 AMG, but reading at the forum its totally crap; its leather is like plastic, and the engine cant even get to 70 miles/h do you think i still buy the car?
Kilkrazy wrote: Those criticisms are irrelevant because that kind of person doesn't buy GW products. GW sells to people who enthusiastically buy its product offerings.
Why should that be irrelevant? New and existing users will join a community (forum), which ofcourse will be flooded with people making threads about the costs and so on.
So; like i said on another thread; when you buy Island of blood you may assume you can play the game (which is extremely unbalanced, no army books etc etc). So, finally after whining about a year to his parents that he wants Island of blood for christmas (because he cannot afford himself), and finally got it, to then find out he can't even play the game........ This is just an example of criticism you will get.
Secondly, a community as in a forum can provide you alot of knowledge before buying something (regardless the product / game / car or what). So when i want to buy for lets say a Mercedes c63 AMG, but reading at the forum its totally crap; its leather is like plastic, and the engine cant even get to 70 miles/h do you think i still buy the car?
If you read the GW financial reports and various missives from "Kirby" of GW, Kilkrazy is pretty much saying what GW thinks is their target market.
The criticisms are "irrelevant" to GW because that is not their target audience so supplies no motivation for change.
Not sure where you are going with the car parallelism but negativity will happen, just ask for a pro/con of a given thing and most people can do that with some thoughtfulness.
Many of us have learned the hard way that despite the most inspired of rants, we are not an avenue of change for GW.
They have decided they are the market leaders and will determine what we as customers will want.
They do no market research... yadda... yadda... yadda... Kirby arrogance still is impressive to me.
Although it's not a big thing, a more transparent release schedule would be nice. ("Fantasy 9th Ed is coming summer 2015", or something.)
We've talked a lot about community relations, and if GW even made the barest, most minimal effort to communicate what's down the road, it would start to make a difference.
The idea that announcing that (say) Necrons would be coming in November would utterly destroy Necron sales now and sink the company is really, really silly.
ComTrav wrote: Although it's not a big thing, a more transparent release schedule would be nice. ("Fantasy 9th Ed is coming summer 2015", or something.)
We've talked a lot about community relations, and if GW even made the barest, most minimal effort to communicate what's down the road, it would start to make a difference.
The idea that announcing that (say) Necrons would be coming in November would utterly destroy Necron sales now and sink the company is really, really silly.
Agreed. I've been waiting a long time for Operation Ice Storm from Infinity and in the meantime my excitement keeps growing and I've bought more Infinity minis in the wait than I normally would have.
ComTrav wrote: Although it's not a big thing, a more transparent release schedule would be nice. .
No, that is a big thing.
Several store owners have mentioned the lack of news about upcoming releases being a major factor in recent poor sales. And it annoys gamers who have no way of knowing when to expect anything for their armies. I know of several Dark Eldar players who quit back in 5th edition after waiting a decade for a new codex who said that they would have stayed in the game if they had been given some word that the new codex was actually coming.
ComTrav wrote: Although it's not a big thing, a more transparent release schedule would be nice. .
No, that is a big thing.
Several store owners have mentioned the lack of news about upcoming releases being a major factor in recent poor sales. And it annoys gamers who have no way of knowing when to expect anything for their armies. I know of several Dark Eldar players who quit back in 5th edition after waiting a decade for a new codex who said that they would have stayed in the game if they had been given some word that the new codex was actually coming.
Pretty shameful, or at least no respect. I mean all those people who love Dark Eldar and quit after not getting anything in over 10 years. How long should anyone have to hang on and hope something is coming their way? Shamefull that GW holds out so someone will "impulse" buy a DE while disrespecting the current DE fans and customers back then. Impulse buy are really that more important than actual customers and fans?
I hate the super secret GW release. It ends up screwing people over more then it attracts people. I feel sorry for the people who bought the 6th edition rulebook a few months before 7th was released. It's just not right.
I don't know whether to find it amusing or depressing that the majority of average hobbyists know more about the market than GW execs do. If GW had any sense, they would hire Zaphod as their new CEO and listen to every single thing he tells them to do.
ComTrav wrote: Although it's not a big thing, a more transparent release schedule would be nice. .
No, that is a big thing.
Several store owners have mentioned the lack of news about upcoming releases being a major factor in recent poor sales. And it annoys gamers who have no way of knowing when to expect anything for their armies. I know of several Dark Eldar players who quit back in 5th edition after waiting a decade for a new codex who said that they would have stayed in the game if they had been given some word that the new codex was actually coming.
I stand corrected -- I guess it is a big deal.
It's good to know that my experience isn't unique -- I'm on the fence about buying a block of Ironbreakers and a few other odds and sods to fill out my dwarf army, and if I knew 9th ed's release date, I could at least make a decision.
Plus, it's part of the company's complete lack of community engagement. I feel like I can come to the game and the hobby with lots of interest, enthusiasm, and yes, cash, and GW doesn't even care to tell me that a new sculpt is going to be available.
) that was in essence this thread.
