So I was at work today, and got into conversation with a coworker (an elderly lady, who is usually quite a nice, caring person), and we go to talking about hobbies.
As the wargamer that I am, I mentioned the hobby, describing it as like a combination of Airfix and an over-complicated version of chess. She said that she had com across it before, and was shocked that I was into it, saying that it's for "boys who never grow up", and that "women don't have anything to do with it".
This lead me into several lines of thought for the rest of the day:
1) I can understand the initial thought of wargaming being immature (many parts of it is, especially considering much of it breaks down into "pew pew layzorz"), but part of her initial response to me was "that's not a thing for girls". I would like to point out that, at the time, she was the only female in the room. So that confused me for several hours...
2) Her attitude towards the subject was not just one of misunderstanding, but of actual repulsion. I have known several people who act this way towards the idea of wargaming, but not so overtly, and it has always made me wonder "What exactly about wargaming provokes this response"?
3) During the conversation she acknowledged that Airfix was a respectable hobby, and that strategy games like Risk and Chess were also good pastimes, but her response to the idea of combining the two was almost as if she found the idea offensive.
4) I have found this sort of reaction in many people, some of my friends included, and I have never understood why the reaction is nigh-universal to those who are largely detached from "nerdy" hobbies.
So, I suppose the real questions are, "Are these responses common?", and "What causes them?".
Well, first you have to look at the person. You describe her as 'elderly.' Now, I doubt she was as she was at work, making her likely younger than 60, but if she is of an older generation, she will likely be quite ignorant of modern culture, and likely hold views that one would consider old fashioned in many cases.
She will also likely be ignorant of the nuances of the hobby. My dad has always projected a certain disapproving air about me modelling, until recently when I actually showed him a bag of bits before I started building a model, the complete model and then once again once I'd painted and based it. This was clearly somewhat of a revelation to him with regard to the time, effort and skill involved, and while he'll never likely pick up some dice himself, I'm content now he appreciates what I do.
She will also likely be of a generation that still thinks of D+D as 'satanic' (and in her head, it is ALL D+D)
There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.
I haven't had anything like that negative a reaction from, well, anyone, ever, but I can't say I'm surprised others have, fundamentally it just stems from ignorance, like any prejudice.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, first you have to look at the person. You describe her as 'elderly.' Now, I doubt she was as she was at work, making her likely younger than 60, but if she is of an older generation, she will likely be quite ignorant of modern culture, and likely hold views that one would consider old fashioned in many cases.
She will also likely be ignorant of the nuances of the hobby. My dad has always projected a certain disapproving air about me modelling, until recently when I actually showed him a bag of bits before I started building a model, the complete model and then once again once I'd painted and based it. This was clearly somewhat of a revelation to him with regard to the time, effort and skill involved, and while he'll never likely pick up some dice himself, I'm content now he appreciates what I do.
She will also likely be of a generation that still thinks of D+D as 'satanic' (and in her head, it is ALL D+D)
There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.
I haven't had anything like that negative a reaction from, well, anyone, ever, but I can't say I'm surprised others have, fundamentally it just stems from ignorance, like any prejudice.
Yeah, there are a number of factors at work, but I think the underlined is the largest of the pie pieces, and we shouldn't really tapdance around it. Maybe people shouldn't be judgmental about others, but the reality is that being judgmental is one of humanity's favorite pastimes.
There's no question that gaming draws in many different types of people from different walks of life. But when you go to the average game store, convention or tournament and assess the people there, it doesn't really resemble Main Street USA (High Street UK?), does it? The crowd is low-hanging fruit for the judgmental.
I think the D&D thing might be the second-largest piece of the pie. It's certainly one of the first questions you get asked IME. To be fair, there isn't a lot of difference from the standpoint of someone with no experience with specialty games like these. Hell, D&D grew out of wargaming, right?
I've explained wargaming many different ways over the years -- sometimes with longer explanations, sometimes with quick dismissals ("nah, it's more like Risk with toy soldiers that you paint"). And I'm not sure than any of them truly change their initial impression that it's like D&D -- definitely weird and possibly satanic or something.
The large money and time investment with no tangible benefits?... in the grand scheme of things, the more you wargame the less you are going to spend on real life. Unless you make wargames your life, and then you are REALLY screwed with the ladies. (there are exceptions, of course, before all the married FLGS owners come to lynch me)
Basically, the world agrees with her because thats what it is. Walk into any generic FLGS and there are gonna be a majority of overweight, underhygenic, socially awkward guys arguing about what their toys can do. Thats a very hard stigma to overcome when you MUST interact with them in order to play the game, or become a "self loathing" splinter group which is arguably more sad. (and i say self loathing towards the wargaming scene, not the individual)
Just look at the female player percentage in wargaming... 1-5% MAYBE? Most women grow out of their doll phase, and they expect men they interact with to as well; or at least see the grand scheme of things. which is generally: Being nerdy is fine, but investing in wargames are jsut spinning your tires. you dont have to crunch the numbers to see that the truth of the matter is most women are looking for mature qualities in men, and a fixation on non-athletic games with no social prestige is quite the opposite. With board games there is a beginning and end, and the rules are generally designed to be approachable and relatively easy to understand/master... wargames tend to be very detailed/convoluted and require a great deal of absorption and research. Most people that put that much effort into something are trying to further their life goals.
First rule of war gaming is never talk about war gaming. Rule two to war gaming refer to rule #1. It's like fight club you never talk about it to others
Selym wrote: So I was at work today, and got into conversation with a coworker (an elderly lady, who is usually quite a nice, caring person), and we go to talking about hobbies.
As the wargamer that I am, I mentioned the hobby, describing it as like a combination of Airfix and an over-complicated version of chess. She said that she had com across it before, and was shocked that I was into it, saying that it's for "boys who never grow up", and that "women don't have anything to do with it".
This lead me into several lines of thought for the rest of the day:
1) I can understand the initial thought of wargaming being immature (many parts of it is, especially considering much of it breaks down into "pew pew layzorz"), but part of her initial response to me was "that's not a thing for girls". I would like to point out that, at the time, she was the only female in the room. So that confused me for several hours...
2) Her attitude towards the subject was not just one of misunderstanding, but of actual repulsion. I have known several people who act this way towards the idea of wargaming, but not so overtly, and it has always made me wonder "What exactly about wargaming provokes this response"?
3) During the conversation she acknowledged that Airfix was a respectable hobby, and that strategy games like Risk and Chess were also good pastimes, but her response to the idea of combining the two was almost as if she found the idea offensive.
4) I have found this sort of reaction in many people, some of my friends included, and I have never understood why the reaction is nigh-universal to those who are largely detached from "nerdy" hobbies.
So, I suppose the real questions are, "Are these responses common?", and "What causes them?".
No. That response from her is outdated, and probably more form her own opinion then general public at large.
People don't mind hearing about this as a hobby, and it draws quite a bunch of interest, to the point that people ask- how do I get into that hobby, and where do you get those guys/ games from?
Problem comes with the sticker shock when someone looks at how much the figures cost. THEN the ire and smart comments kick in.
People look at non-traditional tabletop gaming (anything not Napoleonics) as just a version of playing with toy plastic soldiers.
Which is akin to: boys with their toys = manchild = Peter Pan Syndrome.
I have met some women who are also attracted to some spectacles of strategy and competition who like these games as well, if they did not exist you would not have any in the military or any form of martial art. Women can take their violence seriously.
If you talk about train sets everyone seems to warm up to it and see nothing wrong with that.
But for the terrain and general assembly it is the same skill set to get it to a "playable' state.
Boardgames are OK since they are "normal" diversions and everyone has one of some kind.
I have found it an odd observation that if you explain to them you have a 100+ page rulebook for playing, they give you a blank (or confused) stare and say "but you are playing toy soldiers right?".
Like we go into the realm of make believe and go "pew-pew" no thinking required.
Hard to explain to them you expend more thought in your hobby playing a game than they do all day.
There is one way to get past rule #1 of not discussing the hobby, you then talk about, reading (lots), assembly, painting techniques, airbrushing, drills and polystyrene, hot wire cutters and glue guns.
Unintentionally I can hold my own with the most rabid scrap booker, car/bike painter, artist, collector, martial artist and business person with knowledge of game theory.
It is a multidiscipline hobby that always keeps you thinking and researching.
I feel obligated to prove those types wrong and am less hesitant to describe this hobby in a way they can understand and not be ostracized because of it.
We are also a proud bunch and always willing to show off our hard-won skilz
I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
"It is like building model airplanes, except that once you build them, you and your friends fight little wars with them."
That has always seemed to work for me, and I don't normally experience much negativity. Usually what negativity comes my way is mistaken association with teenage MTG players hanging around outside the FLGS smoking.
That takes 10 seconds to sort out. 'Na, those are Magic the Gathering players. We play wargames on Wednesday night.'
Wargaming will probably always never be socially acceptable which is sad because its such a fantastic thing, its social, fun, and you gain A LOT of useful skills along the way. But, it isn't going out on the town, drinking a lot, indulging in the useless dramas young people get into, just making a general knob of yourself (which to be honest I join in on a lot, cause its a good time! ;D)
Its that stereotypical socially inept fat guy who never leaves his house, that has cheedo stains on the top and bottom of his sweat stained shirt and smells like mothballs... which I have encountered to many times. that people are put off by, and manage to think that's what the majority of wargamers look like. I mean, if your that guy, just friggen clean your self, you actually do all us wargamers a favor by not putting yourself to that stereotype.
OP, if you think that's a close-minded view, you should've asked her her opinion on gay marriage, minorities, and her least favorite political party. Turns out old people don't like a LOT of stuff.
It's a good exercise for all wargamers to grapple with this kind of judgement by others to remind them of two things:
1. You could really take it to heart and feel like a victim, but would that really get you anything? No. You have to learn to ignore other people's opinions of you, because they don't matter.
2. The next time you're quick to judge someone who has completely different interests, think about how un-informed others are who judge you.
Poppabear wrote: Wargaming will probably always never be socially acceptable which is sad because its such a fantastic thing, its social, fun, and you gain A LOT of useful skills along the way. But, it isn't going out on the town, drinking a lot, indulging in the useless dramas young people get into, just making a general knob of yourself (which to be honest I join in on a lot, cause its a good time! ;D)
Its that stereotypical socially inept fat guy who never leaves his house, that has cheedo stains on the top and bottom of his sweat stained shirt and smells like mothballs... which I have encountered to many times. that people are put off by, and manage to think that's what the majority of wargamers look like. I mean, if your that guy, just friggen clean your self, you actually do all us wargamers a favor by not putting yourself to that stereotype.
I'm usually pretty smartly presented, and I'm easy to converse with, thankfully. Though, I've never seen much point in what many people in my school used to call fun, which was getting drunk and then staggering around for several hours making racist comments and damaging property.
Maybe it's culture shock, like Blue and Orange morality.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slowthar wrote: OP, if you think that's a close-minded view, you should've asked her her opinion on gay marriage, minorities, and her least favorite political party. Turns out old people don't like a LOT of stuff.
It's a good exercise for all wargamers to grapple with this kind of judgement by others to remind them of two things:
1. You could really take it to heart and feel like a victim, but would that really get you anything? No. You have to learn to ignore other people's opinions of you, because they don't matter.
2. The next time you're quick to judge someone who has completely different interests, think about how un-informed others are who judge you.
Also, see below.
Eh, I don't so much take offense as get annoyed at instant close-mindedness.
It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.
How do you guys think this compares to views of video gaming, or card gaming? I personally think wargaming is somewhat less socially accepted than video games or card games are, probably because of the whole "toy soldiers" aspect.
No lobby. Video games have a huge lobby nowadays and a huge community behind it. Steam alone did so much and the gaming community often embraces their favorite developers.
Tabletop? No lobby. The biggest tabletop community openly hates and mocks their customers and does not regard the hobby as a hobby.
I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and
It's surprising how comparable it is to a lot of more accepted hobbies. I have a lot of female and male friends that make their own clothing. The very few times wargames have come up I've compared it easily. You invest in materials and learn skills consolidating them and then afterwards you enjoy the fruits of your labour indefinitely.
Sigvatr wrote: It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.
A lot of table top wargamers are college educated professionals, but that's not as fun of a stereotype. When I have to drop by the FLGS to pick something up I like to go after work while I have my suit on. I figure every little bit helps.
Sigvatr wrote: It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.
I've been to the three closest GW's to me, and they consist of pretty normal looking people, who as far as I can tell don't fit the poorer stereotypes of wargamers. Which is saying something, considering one of them is in stevenage (which is known for being a bad place to grow up).
My school has a Warhamer club, which was run by one of the most respected teachers in the school, and it still got a bunch of hate.
Kiwidru wrote: The large money and time investment with no tangible benefits?... in the grand scheme of things, the more you wargame the less you are going to spend on real life. Unless you make wargames your life, and then you are REALLY screwed with the ladies. (there are exceptions, of course, before all the married FLGS owners come to lynch me)
Basically, the world agrees with her because thats what it is. Walk into any generic FLGS and there are gonna be a majority of overweight, underhygenic, socially awkward guys arguing about what their toys can do. Thats a very hard stigma to overcome when you MUST interact with them in order to play the game, or become a "self loathing" splinter group which is arguably more sad. (and i say self loathing towards the wargaming scene, not the individual)
Just look at the female player percentage in wargaming... 1-5% MAYBE? Most women grow out of their doll phase, and they expect men they interact with to as well; or at least see the grand scheme of things. which is generally: Being nerdy is fine, but investing in wargames are jsut spinning your tires. you dont have to crunch the numbers to see that the truth of the matter is most women are looking for mature qualities in men, and a fixation on non-athletic games with no social prestige is quite the opposite. With board games there is a beginning and end, and the rules are generally designed to be approachable and relatively easy to understand/master... wargames tend to be very detailed/convoluted and require a great deal of absorption and research. Most people that put that much effort into something are trying to further their life goals.
*grabs riot shield and ducks behind wall
this
its down there at the very bottom with dungeons and dragons. playing video games or even watching wwe wrestling are better hobbies in a woman's eyes.
I've been wargaming since I was 7/8yrs old. My father wasn't bothered at that point as he just thought of it as kids stuff. Now I'm close to 30, my brother and I get mocked for it whenever we bring it up in his presence. There has in fact been a moment in my life (years ago) where, he decided to throw it all out (around 3rd/4th edition I believe). All my Black Templars, brother's Nurgle and Tyranid stuff. Gone. Managed to save some of it. Along with some of the older models dating back to RT days.
My other family members see it as a little sad, but they accept that it's a hobby and that my brother and I enjoy it.
Now I have more models than I care to count and scenery to go with it. :-)
With other people, it generally gets a reasonable reception when I tell them I play tabletop games. Hell, some women I know actually ask for pictures of some of the stuff I've painted. One person in particular started buying me kits for my birthday/xmas when I told her. Which was really nice of them . Got a Razorwing and Doom Scythe
Random Dude wrote: I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
I think the best "ah-ha!" I got from people with no knowledge of the hobby was I made a full scenic base with Legolas.
My wife really liked the movie and the actor (multiple statements of "he is hot" so I took the high road and made it and gave it to her).
She loved it and brought it to work.
Not long after, I went to their Christmas party and had multiple people ask me "how in the world did you paint that so well and detailed?".
Had a couple people ask if I could paint some things for them and one to teach.
Weird! I am ok in the scheme of things, just shows how little people see of this kind of work.
Friend of my wife likes making her own costumes for Halloween, I started making and painting up props (swords, armor, led glowing bits) with her and she asked how I learned to do all this stuff.
It was all by the sharing of notes like with you guys at Dakka.
It is a hobby with a multitude of skills that easily extend into other things.
I think the gaming and skills gain respect when you can apply them in "real life" and not just narrowly focus on the one thing.
It is like our "jock" gaming friends, other interests do not have to mesh but it sure helps! (plus your health and looks help out our stereotype!)
I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and both played and painted he lit up like a firework and canters away.
But I was left with the initial impression that he viewed his hobby as a dirty little secret, and it was a bit gross and weird.
Azreal13 wrote: There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.
Oh I don't know about that. I think I'd find any girl who knows how to handle a paintbrush and handful of dice sexy enough.
Knockagh wrote: I walked into a canteen in a laboratory I do some work with from time to time and spied a balck library novel on the lunch table. Trying to create conversation I asked who the blok belonged to....... A rather large boyish figure looked firmly at his feet and quietly said it was his. Once I said I too had an interest in the hobby and both played and painted he lit up like a firework and canters away.
But I was left with the initial impression that he viewed his hobby as a dirty little secret, and it was a bit gross and weird.
I once did a Graduate Internship with a leading chemical/paint company, and mentioned in passing at the end of the interview that I painted & played miniature wargames as a Hobby (attention to detail, patience etc). A couple weeks later I brought a couple miniatures into the office to show them - they were all quite impressed. And these people were senior scientists and chemists in an industry leading company.
My advice is...carry around your best painted miniature in a pocket at all times. If anyone ever denigrates your hobby, just whip out your miniature and say "Oh yeah? Well can you paint like this?"
My best mate used to absolutely rip it out of me for playing Warhammer and 40k. It was incessant. I like a bit of friendly banter as much as the next guy, but this got to the stage where it was like "yeah ok mate, you think it's sad, you can shut up now".
Then one day we went to Games Workshop. All I wanted to buy as a Guard codex. But his attitude did a complete 180. He was really impressed with how well painted the models were, and the fact that the store was a hobby centre where the guys could get together and play games, not just a shop. And I could not prise him away from the LOTR table when I wanted to leave!
He would never get into the game himself, but the intensity of the mockery plummeted at this point.
I find it odd that wargaming is considered less socially acceptable than other hobbies even though there is a large social element to it that isn't present when playing your Xbox or watching TV. At least my hobby involves going out and interacting with other people in real life.
I resent all this comparison of table top war gaming to dungeons and dragons. As a longtime GM I can say in all honesty that my groups have consisted of the cool and uncool alike in roughly equal quantities, much like my war gaming groups. My reaction to negative comments about my hobbies is met with an big smile and a statement like "don't be bitter just because you don't like having fun/using you imagination/rolling dice. I mean, who doesn't like rolling dice!!!!????!!!
Both DnDers and wargammers should be proud of their hobbies. I mean, for crying out loud. It's not like we're LARPers.
Sigvatr wrote: It's about the public image. Walk into a regular GW store and what do you see? Or should I say "smell"? Gaming clubs, most often, aren't part of the public image. Our club's average age is 31, ranging from age 18 to 61. Quite a few of us are part of middle-high management and have families with kids.
A lot of table top wargamers are college educated professionals, but that's not as fun of a stereotype. When I have to drop by the FLGS to pick something up I like to go after work while I have my suit on. I figure every little bit helps.
I know a bloke who's a Firefighter and family man by day, and an extremely talented miniature commission sculptor by night. In fact I'm waiting on a Lord of the Rings commission from him.
My brother derides me for my interest in 40k.He gets genuinely angry. I have a bazillion other pastimes.. adult league hockey, ocean kayaking, vidya games, gardening, running..
His two interests in life are UFC fighting and football, both of which are accompanied by drinking copious amounts of alcohol. Yea, I'm the one wasting my time..
Krusha wrote: My best mate used to absolutely rip it out of me for playing Warhammer and 40k. It was incessant. I like a bit of friendly banter as much as the next guy, but this got to the stage where it was like "yeah ok mate, you think it's sad, you can shut up now".
Then one day we went to Games Workshop. All I wanted to buy as a Guard codex. But his attitude did a complete 180. He was really impressed with how well painted the models were, and the fact that the store was a hobby centre where the guys could get together and play games, not just a shop. And I could not prise him away from the LOTR table when I wanted to leave!
He would never get into the game himself, but the intensity of the mockery plummeted at this point.
I find it odd that wargaming is considered less socially acceptable than other hobbies even though there is a large social element to it that isn't present when playing your Xbox or watching TV. At least my hobby involves going out and interacting with other people in real life.
Your story illustrates the problem of ignorance about the Wargaming community. At first the only thing your friend had to go off was the often untrue stereotype of wargamers. After he actually gained some knowledge on the subject he changed his mindset.
*edit- When was this (I didn't think people still play LOTR)?
Yep, had a club at college (age 12-17) and boy sometimes it was tough. But I always found it funny, that most people where amazed when they actually came to see it.
When you think about it, wargaming is like playing a video game. Except, you need another human 100% of the time, you have to use your own skills to create the graphics and so on, you do the work of a computer program to actually run the game AND depending on the wargaming you can learn a lot about history or statistics etc.
Its actually an intelligent hobby at the end of the day and even the most mediocre painters have a lot of talent and dedication etc.
I always did really well at sports, but hated it. My dad used to get upset at my lack of love for sports, but now at the age of 20, he actually brags to people about my hobby. After seeing the terrain we create, seeing the history books get bigger and the fact that people of all ages and so forth actually get together and enjoy themselves really turned people in my family around to the hobby. Because of it, I started the board gaming obsession in my family of risk and settlers of Catan and many more games.
Ignorance is the only issue when it comes to wargaming stigma. Nothing else. I will admit, there are some people I find really dont help the hobby image, but then again, what hobby doesnt have that issue.
sand.zzz wrote: My brother derides me for my interest in 40k.He gets genuinely angry. I have a bazillion other pastimes.. adult league hockey, ocean kayaking, vidya games, gardening, running..
His two interests in life are UFC fighting and football, both of which are accompanied by drinking copious amounts of alcohol. Yea, I'm the one wasting my time..
You are definitely wasting your time if you can't combine the drinking and wargamming.
Joking aside, what I have noticed in life is that there is no hate without love. If you hate something, there tends to be something about it that you want to love but can't, or don't know how, or just don't understand. But you can observe someone else enjoying it and can't see yourself doing so and resent that. That grows to hate sometimes.
Or, even simpler, people with hobbies they enjoy tend to be happy/er/ish or at the very least they appear to enjoy themselves occasionally (you get my meaning). People who are less happy, or have nothing of their own that compares to those hobbies get bitter and angry and project those feelings on your epic, exciting game.
In the end, have fun and who cares what other people think.
Krusha wrote: My best mate used to absolutely rip it out of me for playing Warhammer and 40k. It was incessant. I like a bit of friendly banter as much as the next guy, but this got to the stage where it was like "yeah ok mate, you think it's sad, you can shut up now".
Then one day we went to Games Workshop. All I wanted to buy as a Guard codex. But his attitude did a complete 180. He was really impressed with how well painted the models were, and the fact that the store was a hobby centre where the guys could get together and play games, not just a shop. And I could not prise him away from the LOTR table when I wanted to leave!
He would never get into the game himself, but the intensity of the mockery plummeted at this point.
I find it odd that wargaming is considered less socially acceptable than other hobbies even though there is a large social element to it that isn't present when playing your Xbox or watching TV. At least my hobby involves going out and interacting with other people in real life.
Your story illustrates the problem of ignorance about the Wargaming community. At first the only thing your friend had to go off was the often untrue stereotype of wargamers. After he actually gained some knowledge on the subject he changed his mindset.
*edit- When was this (I didn't think people still play LOTR)?
Probably because you haven't bothered to look for them.
Or maybe its because you're American. The SBG was never as popular in the USA as it is/was in the UK.
As far as im concerned if you get upset or put someone down for such a harmless hobby, you are a halfwit, ive never tried to show or convince anyone about my hobby
i dont understand why people honesly get upset about something so minor, they are uncultured halfiwits
In my experience the more intelleigent the person who knows about it the less they care. I think you can honeslty associate the intelligence level of the person depending on how they react
I find its the same with most hobbies, I like sports cars and have always owned one, yet pretty much everyone in my office can't understand why you need a car that will go above 70mph as thats the speed limit.
I think 90% of people must get home from work, sit on their arse staring at the TV and then go to bed.
Daston wrote: I find its the same with most hobbies, I like sports cars and have always owned one, yet pretty much everyone in my office can't understand why you need a car that will go above 70mph as thats the speed limit.
I think 90% of people must get home from work, sit on their arse staring at the TV and then go to bed.
Sounds about right. I get home from school, do four hours of work, and then I go to bed.
Random Dude wrote: I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
I view myself as a professionally amateur rugby player (I go to the gym to get stronger/more fit for rugby, and I work/make money so that I can play rugby), and couldn't agree more... It doesn't hurt that I just got out of the Army, and lemme tell you, there are usually some pretty good sized, and vibrant gaming communities in the towns/cities outside of a military installation. If I had been so inclined to continue with 40k for longer, I would never have want for a game in an army town. I'd tried (unsuccessfully) to have my supervisors in the army cut me from work early to go play 40k, with the excuse that it's "professional development" of my tactical thinking/command skills
I think 90% of people must get home from work, sit on their arse staring at the TV and then go to bed.
Judging by conversations I've overheard in public, I'd agree with this.... Much of what I hear in public has to do with some celebrities that I've never heard of or some other useless tripe that has no interest to me.
Honestly I do not care what other people think about my hobby! If they are negative about something positive that you have in your life then they are wrong. She was wrong. Perhaps she got ignored, maybe for good reason, by a husband who was trying to cope with her so he escaped into a man room and built ships in the empty whiskey bottles he drank trying to medicate himself over the vile person he married...
My hobby is my happy place, calm and relaxing, takes me back to a time when my uncle Larry, and I played toy soldiers, he built Japanese style huts for my WWII soldiers to fight around, painted with me, and we played together like a father and son should. So anything that a guy does that his kids can do with him is perfect! Better than the present but absent dad who does nothing with the kids. A kid or man that is responsible at work and home can have a freaking hobby! Multiple hobbies if he wants.
I don't drink much, I don't chase skirts (so my wife should be happy), don't go to bars, I fight, workout, Warhammer 40K, some guns stuff, read. My current wife knows it makes me happy so on business trips oft times she'll pick up stuff for me and that floors me everytime! Other two wives didn't end up respecting my hobby time, I did put them first but they are history. Not saying it's 40K or them, but it kind of is. I respect what she does, and would like the same in return.
After I get to know someone who is genuine they may get to see photos of miniatures or kits I've built. Mostly dudes who like stuff like that anyway. I squeal like a child at times about new kits I see in White Dwarf while on a break and a pal of mine comes and checks out what I'm on about.
Anyway, that struck a defensive nerve, and I hope that woman apologizes to you for being a negative hag.
Sea hag at that...
Dont know if it has been mentioned before but, as far as the "Not for Women" Statement. Wargamers (that are not actually women) and women ( that are actually women) have more in common than you think. For example
My job is in the oilfield. I wear a Hardhat, Steeltoe shoes, and Coveralls at work. After all day at work I am not always the most pleasant smelling or looking but its the look / smell of someone who worked hard all day not of like say a bum off the street. Point is I have many many many times on my way home from work stopped in to a Jo-anns fabrics store, or a Michaels, or Hobby lobby (<- should change name to scrapbook lobby) to get supplies for scratch building or painting models. all these places where I am so out of place it hurts because.
#1 I am a man.
#2 Im obviously a "salt of the earth" type.
#3 men are not allowed to have any hobbies other than watch football and drink beer.
POINT IS All the skills in hobbies women enjoy with crafting and scrap booking and all that other sh....tuff is in fact exactly the same skills we use in our hobby. The difference being at the end we use it to kill one another
In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing. To the OP, some people are just intolerant of anything their small mind can't comprehend. My mom nagged me for 10 years about quitting smoking. I quit and switched to vaping. Now every time I call her she asks when I'm going to quit vaping. She nags my dad about just about every hobby he has. Her "hobbies" are going to the mall and watching entertainment tonight. She can tell you what Kim Kardashian did last night but has no clue about politics, history or anything else actually worth knowing. Don't take criticism from that type of person very seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Add: I'm not sure where the stereotype about 40k players comes from. I'm tall, athletic, social, well groomed, as are 90% of the people I game with. I turned down a college football scholarship offer to join the military. When I'm not playing 40k I'm working on my race car or shooting one of the guns I built myself. I guess we all have to accept that tabletop war gaming is probably the 3rd nerdiest thing a person can do behind LARP and DnD.
A few mates laugh at me, others are interested in but I've yet to encounter out and out hostility.
I think that because I don't look like a stereotypical gamer it's easier for people to acknowledge. I tick all the 'adult' boxes - Married, car, job, house so no one can complain that I'm wasting this or that because my bills are paid, my home life happy and my disposable income (hah!) is all mine!
I get laughed at more because I look a bit foreign compared to my mates, and I wear glasses so of course I'm Will from The Inbetweeners. "Suitcase spanker" indeed. The fact that it's a minis case means nothing to these people!
I think its just a strange misguided idea in the general public based on character stereotypes. See the Simpsons comic book shop guy for an example.
Personally I got into wargaming in my mid 20's. I was a jock in school and yes I looked down on the "nerds" playing D&D and the like. I didn't realize I was a nerd until I was exposed to it. A coworker I was carpooling with was into 40K and told me ad nauseum about it. Finally (and quite cleverly) tricked me into walking into the FGLS with him one night (to buy a magazine on the way home.....) I took a look at what was happening and I was hooked. Much to my wife's annoyance.
Also i am sorry to all the kids I teased and made fun of for doing what I now enjoy....
As to how I handle people when they give me that weird look? I just shrug it off. i have nothing to prove to them, nor do I really care what someone besides my wife thinks about my hobby.
darefsky wrote: I think its just a strange misguided idea in the general public based on character stereotypes. See the Simpsons comic book shop guy for an example.
Personally I got into wargaming in my mid 20's. I was a jock in school and yes I looked down on the "nerds" playing D&D and the like. I didn't realize I was a nerd until I was exposed to it. A coworker I was carpooling with was into 40K and told me ad nauseum about it. Finally (and quite cleverly) tricked me into walking into the FGLS with him one night (to buy a magazine on the way home.....) I took a look at what was happening and I was hooked. Much to my wife's annoyance.
Also i am sorry to all the kids I teased and made fun of for doing what I now enjoy....
As to how I handle people when they give me that weird look? I just shrug it off. i have nothing to prove to them, nor do I really care what someone besides my wife thinks about my hobby.
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it be your destiny.. lol
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
Reminds me of a schoolfriend (who moved away sadly) with whom I would openly talk about 40k, and we'd both be making nonsensical commissar-related jokes, and, surprisingly to the apparent envy of other people in school, spend the entire time laughing with eachother with our common interest.
It's great to see so many things I can relate to in this thread
darefsky wrote: I think its just a strange misguided idea in the general public based on character stereotypes. See the Simpsons comic book shop guy for an example.
Personally I got into wargaming in my mid 20's. I was a jock in school and yes I looked down on the "nerds" playing D&D and the like. I didn't realize I was a nerd until I was exposed to it. A coworker I was carpooling with was into 40K and told me ad nauseum about it. Finally (and quite cleverly) tricked me into walking into the FGLS with him one night (to buy a magazine on the way home.....) I took a look at what was happening and I was hooked. Much to my wife's annoyance.
Also i am sorry to all the kids I teased and made fun of for doing what I now enjoy....
As to how I handle people when they give me that weird look? I just shrug it off. i have nothing to prove to them, nor do I really care what someone besides my wife thinks about my hobby.
Eh. I think you're being disingenous if you think it's that "strange" and "misguided." The comic book guy character exists because THAT GUY works in a lot of comic book stores. It's why the joke works.
Yes, there are many "normal" (whatever that means) well-rounded people in wargaming. And there are also a higher number of fringe personalities and socially awkward people than in your average population. Even within the community we joke about the guys with BO and bad hygiene, odd personal style, leering at/awkwardness around women, and other various strange behaviors. The jokes work because many of us have seen and experienced exactly those things in ways we haven't in other aspects of our lives. I think as a community we have to own that a little. It's a *very* niche hobby with some devotees who are a little different than the average bear.
Personally I think the ultimate answer here is simply to ignore any criticism and not care. Getting defensive isn't going to solve anything or win hearts or minds, and it's a battle you might actually lose. Can we all say definitively that we can stop into our local gaming store/con/event and NOT see quite a few people who fit some of the stereotypes?
Your story illustrates the problem of ignorance about the Wargaming community. At first the only thing your friend had to go off was the often untrue stereotype of wargamers. After he actually gained some knowledge on the subject he changed his mindset.
*edit- When was this (I didn't think people still play LOTR)?
This was a few years back, before I got back into the hobby as an Ork.
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
I've played cricket, what an interesting game. I still don't get that game. Something about underhanded pitch to a wielder of a very flat bat, three pegs with a toggle on top. Not bashing it, just trying to remember this jist of it.
Nerds bashing sports in a thread about non-wargamers bashing our hobby. Funny
I'm not totally sure. In the original days of the sport, the pass was illegal. You ran the ball and kicked a lot of field goals (not hard to play defense when you're only defending their running game and they aren't allowed to pass). I'm sure if the football players of the 1890s saw today's game they wouldn't even recognize it. Why is your sport named after an insect?
Given the game has been around since at least the 16th century, the etymology is a little vague. From memory, I think it comes from an old word relating to the bat, but I'm not sure whether it was Old English or Dutch.
kungfujew wrote: I resent all this comparison of table top war gaming to dungeons and dragons. As a longtime GM I can say in all honesty that my groups have consisted of the cool and uncool alike in roughly equal quantities, much like my war gaming groups. My reaction to negative comments about my hobbies is met with an big smile and a statement like "don't be bitter just because you don't like having fun/using you imagination/rolling dice. I mean, who doesn't like rolling dice!!!!????!!!
Both DnDers and wargammers should be proud of their hobbies. I mean, for crying out loud. It's not like we're LARPers.
Hey now...LARPers are people too...cosplayers however...
kungfujew wrote: I resent all this comparison of table top war gaming to dungeons and dragons. As a longtime GM I can say in all honesty that my groups have consisted of the cool and uncool alike in roughly equal quantities, much like my war gaming groups. My reaction to negative comments about my hobbies is met with an big smile and a statement like "don't be bitter just because you don't like having fun/using you imagination/rolling dice. I mean, who doesn't like rolling dice!!!!????!!!
Both DnDers and wargammers should be proud of their hobbies. I mean, for crying out loud. It's not like we're LARPers.
Hey now...LARPers are people too...cosplayers however...
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
When Americans were introduced to the game, it was via rugby... Only with our isolationist policies and "American Spirit" we continually changed the rules and manner in which the game was played. The "death blow" for rugby (temporarily) was when President Teddy Roosevelt said that this game of football was too dangerous, and insisted that something be done to make is safer. This was about the time that we added pads or "armor"... In a rather ironic twist of fate, it's now Rugby Union that is being looked towards as a means of making American Football safer, after the monstrosity it has become has brought us to a point where player safety has become more of a concern again, and rugby is now the "safer" option
kungfujew wrote: I resent all this comparison of table top war gaming to dungeons and dragons. As a longtime GM I can say in all honesty that my groups have consisted of the cool and uncool alike in roughly equal quantities, much like my war gaming groups. My reaction to negative comments about my hobbies is met with an big smile and a statement like "don't be bitter just because you don't like having fun/using you imagination/rolling dice. I mean, who doesn't like rolling dice!!!!????!!!
Both DnDers and wargammers should be proud of their hobbies. I mean, for crying out loud. It's not like we're LARPers.
Hey now...LARPers are people too...cosplayers however...
I don't know i find some of those female cosplayers intriguing
I just say what my hobbies are and i don't really care about their reaction.
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
When Americans were introduced to the game, it was via rugby... Only with our isolationist policies and "American Spirit" we continually changed the rules and manner in which the game was played. The "death blow" for rugby (temporarily) was when President Teddy Roosevelt said that this game of football was too dangerous, and insisted that something be done to make is safer. This was about the time that we added pads or "armor"... In a rather ironic twist of fate, it's now Rugby Union that is being looked towards as a means of making American Football safer, after the monstrosity it has become has brought us to a point where player safety has become more of a concern again, and rugby is now the "safer" option
I think part of that has to do with hitting vs. tackling. In football, players just run into each other with their helmets leading to injuries. Rugby tackling is more dragging the player down which has less of an impact on the head.
its down there at the very bottom with dungeons and dragons. playing video games or even watching wwe wrestling are better hobbies in a woman's eyes.
Have you met any women to know that?
Cant say its been an issue to me in the last 30 years... though we did have a Tiger I on our wedding cake.
Never encounterd any negativity towards the hobby, always been very positive, especially from the opposite sex. But then im out and proud about playing toy soldiers.
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
From Wikipedia:
Etymology and names
In the United States, American football is referred to as "football." The term "football" was officially established in the rulebook for the 1876 college football season, when the sport first shifted from soccer-style rules to rugby-style rules; although it could easily have been called "rugby" at this point, Harvard, one of the primary proponents of the rugby-style game, compromised and did not request the name of the sport be changed to "rugby". In countries where other codes of football are popular, such as the United Kingdom and Australia, the terms "gridiron" or "American football" are favored.
I think part of that has to do with hitting vs. tackling. In football, players just run into each other with their helmets leading to injuries. Rugby tackling is more dragging the player down which has less of an impact on the head.
When Roosevelt called the game too unsafe, it was a far cry from what it is today (for either sport)... But really this is another topic
I remember how when I was in Germany, I was in a unit where I was a minority "nerd"... Quite literally 60-70% of my company played World Of Warcraft (and about half of THEM were playing together... as if they hadn't gotten enough of each other for the past 5 days at work). In an argument with one of those WoW gamers (I was being very sarcastic/joking, while the other guy was getting red to the face and serious), I proposed a bet. I told him, "this weekend, we'll both sit down to our hobbies, then, on Monday I'll bring in what I've painted, and you can bring in what you've done, and Top (who was standing with us, enjoying this argument) can be the judge of who has more to show of their weekend" Of course, it was funny that Top played WoW as well, but was on my side of the argument as he was older and was fully aware that he was "wasting" time, but he didnt care, because it was kinda fun.
Toofast wrote: What's wrong with cosplayers? Google "Jessica Nigri" before you answer
Hardly fair when she can make anything look good.
We could get into the topic of furries as well... <edit not "got">I have a cousin into it, still trying to figure out if there is some multi-step exit program from it.
Yes, geek/nerd/otaku has a hierarchy, just like any other stream of "competitive" fandom (getting into the "I know more weird facts of the hobby than you!" can be fun).
I try to cover the bases of computer/war-gaming/martial-arts/anime/Star-Trek freak and if I can combine them all: I am not seen for days at a time.
Toofast wrote: What's wrong with cosplayers? Google "Jessica Nigri" before you answer
It's not so much a problem of the cosplayers but of the weird slobbering creepozoid fanboys that follow them around trying to cop a feel (although this is as much a failure of society to remove the douchebag genes from the pool) and generally just leering at them.
I'd never be a cosplayer - I just don't have the rack for it.
When you explain that it has nothing to do with video games most people are intrigued. Like i asked a day off from work cause of a tourney i was playing in. She asked if it was computer and i said "No its a game where you build, paint, and battle other players on a battlefield of your own construction."
Now my boss wants to play
My point is your co-worker is a close minded fool.
Toofast wrote: What's wrong with cosplayers? Google "Jessica Nigri" before you answer
It's not so much a problem of the cosplayers but of the weird slobbering creepozoid fanboys that follow them around trying to cop a feel (although this is as much a failure of society to remove the douchebag genes from the pool) and generally just leering at them.
I'd never be a cosplayer - I just don't have the rack for it.
The biggest amount of rage I ever encountered as a gamer was when a gaming group I was in took part in a local 'hobbies' day a local school was running, in the mid/late 90's where we tried to get young kids (about 11-13 year olds) involved in playing a game, I was about 16 at the time, but it wasn't my school. It was a historical club and we took along a load of 15mm Napoleonics. We set up a display with a small participation game and simple set of rules. We talked to parents and tried to emphasis the creative aspects of it as well as the learning about history.
Most of the more 'conservative' looking parents where very positive about the whole thing, they loved the history and the spectacle and many of the Dads took and interest and often told us tales of all the Airfix kits they assembled and painted as youngsters and they loved how we had taken it to the next level.
However we got a massive earful from one of the younger female mothers who wandered over, she looked quite hippyish. She loudly accused us 'war glorification', 'brainwashing kids into joining the army' being 'war obsessed men' and made allot of references to the Bosnian war which was going on at the time. In the end a member of the schools staff had to ask her to leave.
She did have a point, but she didn't really present it well.
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
However, I'm a grown adult that can see past it. But I'm also able to see that the constant barrage of war related media, whether that's from a miniature game, or from video games, does add up.
Just on number 2 of the OP I reckon it comes from the D&D days. People who played D&D were usually associated with having no lives and being overgrown boys who never leave their mothers basement. This is entirely untrue, but it has spread a popular prejudice, especially to some video games such as Civ5 and AoE and League of Legends etc.
The problem is, people just dont get past this Prejudice and view them as little plastic toys and nothing more when they are so much more. Most of my mates who shared this actually changed their minds once I showed them what wargaming is actually about.
Vertrucio wrote: She did have a point, but she didn't really present it well.
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
I'd say that despite the fact it's easy to accuse historical gaming of war glorification I'd say it far more prevalent in fantasy gaming. The background to 40K containing quite allot of what could be described as war fetishisation, wheras most historical gaming is mostly rather respectful in tone.
People like to make that distinction, but the reality of it is that all wargaming is a fantasy. Doesn't matter if it's a dragon, or a huey helicopter. You're still pushing little plastic or metal figures around on a tabletop.
It is perhaps worse that historicals fantasize real wars that happened as this abstract and clean thing, when in reality all war is hell. There is no true respect in wargaming, it's still just fantasizing about wars.
The more fantastical games to take things to an extreme, but it also takes it to a comical level, it's not trying to be serious in the first place.
So no, playing a historical game is no better or worse than fantastical gaming. People fetishize many aspects of historical gaming too and try to pass off that as a study of history, but the fact is, history is more than just wars. And this fetishistic drive to reenact such times of real cruelty and horror is as much a fantasy and disrespectful as the fantastical games that make a mockery of all of it.
Which is not to say it's all evil and should all be destroyed. Rather, one should not try to pass the buck on the whole glorification thing.
Yeah, the "war glorification" argument sums up to being the same one about violence in video games. Is it an issue? Meh. Only for people who can't make a distinction between fantasy and reality. However, violent video games are much more vivid and probably offer a lot less in terms of strategic thinking than your average wargame, plus take a lot less effort.
I must admit, the "war glorification" is something I do have some trouble wrestling with.
Some of the most interesting technologies have stemmed from military need/applications (or easily converted to that application).
Applying tactics to a life and death situation seems terribly exciting in contrast to how many of us lead our lives (possible exception to our military members!).
For the person that freaked out about kids getting involved in the tabletop wargame: I bet she does not monitor what video games they play.
The painted miniatures on a nice terrain piece seems to evoke an emotional response: it is epic / cool / amazing looking compared to some graphics on a screen.
I think like any piece of "art" it can be impactful, even that overreacting mom can acknowledge that she found the display attractive or she would not have protested so much, or "glorification" would not have been used.
The way I look at it, even to try to get into the headspace of a person who commanded troops can at least give a glimmer of understanding and respect for what they did and what they faced.
I think that a bit like remembrance day you want to respect the sacrifices that were made and can exorcise those demons of "what if" scenarios and find out things could have gone a lot worse.
Any other "excuses" aside, fine, I could acknowledge it as a guilty pleasure.
It is like listening to angry music and practicing kendo: the limited/controlled violence seems therapeutic to me and I can afford to be more serene in my day to day.
Heh, the rage against wargamers could be the same thing as with bullying: people think that those who play war-games are those too weak or unwilling to perform actual physical violence so are a "safe" target for ridicule. I figure it is a way of blowing off steam in a "constructive" way and in no-way an indication of the emotional stability of the person.
I'd never be a cosplayer - I just don't have the rack for it.
If you wanna be a cosplayer be a cosplayer, dont let anyone stop you from rocking whatever cosplay you rock, but cosplay as someone who uses a weapon (Dokuro-chan from Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-Chan perhaps) so if someone complains about your rack, bludgeon them in true form to the character
And on topic, I've never seen rage of anything from anyone whose opinion I value, just confusion as to the whole appeal of the hobby, which I get in a way, the feelings mutual about his hobby so its all cool xD
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
What's funny is that I've seen numerous psychological studies done within the last decade or so that "proves" that boys who play at war and the like end up healthier adults than those who are forbidden/kept from playing at war.
In most of those the reasoning is that playing things like War, Cops/Robbers, etc. teaches young boys many of the social skills needed in adulthood (social hierarchy, or the Boss/Supervisor, some morality, etc) I would say of course, that there is a fine line between a healthy pastime of playing at war which leads to a well balanced adult, and something more that results in an unhealthy balance.
You could say that playing at anything social would give the same social skills. I think they key is any social activity that involves conflict resolution and real problem solving.
Not only that, it would give them such skills, and many more skills that you couldn't get while playing just war. Skills applicable in normal life, skills that would be useful for say, having a career during normal life and being happy.
War is simplistic, war is brutal. You follow orders, or you give them. Going military, despite its social aspects and politics, is still in many ways simplistic. You have your rank and that's it. People above and below you, orders given or taken.
Instead, what if they played a sport? What if they played at being engineers and designed robots? What if they played at being scientists conducting cool science experiments? What if you taught them how to sculpt and cast miniatures or program video games?
Being a part of any endeavor is the key, and you'll encounter conflicts and have to resolve them. They key is that these conflicts get resolved peacefully.
It's a typical excuse for allowing boys to play war was that it gave them those skills. Reality is, there's no reason to promote war over anything else.
Let's be honest here, do you really think that playing war early on wouldn't predispose them to actually joining the military over some less violent careers?
I'm no hippy. I firmly believe that deadly conflict is a reality of life, but it's not the only thing out there. We as a society do have to be careful about how we push such things on our children such that it is not propagated too much. Such that our children aren't growing up with the military mindset of bashing things, or yelling at things to surrender or die.
Let's be honest here, do you really think that playing war early on wouldn't predispose them to actually joining the military over some less violent careers?
Actually I dont. Given that, as of last survey that I'd seen (so around 2010) the vast majority of the US military's membership came from middle and upper-middle class families... These are the same types of families that are now somewhat famously bubblewrapping their kids, acting like they "need" to be allergic to gluten so that they have something special wrong with them, etc.
And at least one of the studies that I had read (I really wish I remembered where I found them, because I'd definitely link the articles), actually used a control group that was "only" allowed nonviolent toys, like legos/engineering toys, non-violent video games, etc. and they found that the "control group" ended up with more problems in early adulthood than those who were allowed to play wargames.
IMO, I think it could be a stress release kind of thing... Those who were allowed to fight/be violent as kids know how/where to direct that energy (more often than not, I mean, there are some bad apples out there) whereas kids who grow up not being "allowed" to release that violent/negative energy are sort of forced to bottle it up, and they have no real place to direct it which leaves them unable to successfully cope with life's stress.
Raising a couple boys I can say with no reservations that you can try to hide all the violent aspects of life you want and they still pick up some stick and say "bang-bang".
Boggles my mind.
The tactic of coupling respect for a given subject and not cherry picking aspects of it I feel is important.
We have gone to war museums, discussed the heavy cost, the atrocities, the actual causes of war and how they end.
The difficulties people faced and the people employed to try to end the carnage become an interesting topic.
I would rather get into the real world, demonstrable cost of violence and the various ways it was applied before I have to explain Wolverine from X-men.
“To capture the enemy’s entire army is better than to destroy it; to take intact a regiment, a company, or a squad is better than to destroy them. For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the supreme of excellence. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence.”
- Sun Tzu
Focus on the tactics prior to war, to win needed objectives without the need of force has to be shown as the more glorious achievement that shows true capability.
You keep that focus in life, the war-games can be viewed as something to dabble in you plan to never see.
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
What's funny is that I've seen numerous psychological studies done within the last decade or so that "proves" that boys who play at war and the like end up healthier adults than those who are forbidden/kept from playing at war.
In most of those the reasoning is that playing things like War, Cops/Robbers, etc. teaches young boys many of the social skills needed in adulthood (social hierarchy, or the Boss/Supervisor, some morality, etc) I would say of course, that there is a fine line between a healthy pastime of playing at war which leads to a well balanced adult, and something more that results in an unhealthy balance.
On the note of glorifying war, a point could be made that there is a difference between glorifying conflicts and struggles and glorifying the act of inflicting ruination upon others. Though the line is sometimes thin, there is an important difference.
Take, for example Wh40k's Imperial Guard. What many see in them is the average man, heroically standing up to the horrors of an uncaring universe, and boldly telling it to go blow itself.
That would be closer to glorifying heroism, bravery, and possibly a spoonful of stupidity, as that man is five seconds from being shot by a commissar.
While on the surface is seems to be the glorification of war, the tabletop "kill me, kill you" aspect is an exercise in tactical thought, statistical and resource management, and is full of chances to use your imagination. All of which can be extremely useful to a person.
Remember a group protesting outside GW in Derby about 20 years ago, apparently a religious group objecting to the daemonic elements in the game.
When questioned about what daemonic elements they didn't know, it was just an organised protest and they had been told how this was all a bad influence.
Had similar reactions from my then wife (now ex-wifes) friends, again they didn't know why it was bad, they just very much knew it was.
You may have run up against something similar, people object because they feel they should object but don't really know why. Think the reactions to rock music, comic books etc over the years. Not to mention the troubles D&D have had over the years.
Personally not had an issue at work, but then I work in the rail industry, train spotters doesn't cover the half of it (never been a spotter but do have a bunch of models somewhere, and you think warhammer is expensive...) Most who have seen the models are reasonably impressed even if they know nothing about the games.
Mockery tends to be at the level of good natured banter.
My now ex was not happy when youngest offspring discovered 40k, but since then shes actually discovered its a hobby that involves interacting with other people not just sitting in front of a box, teaches patience and can be pretty artistic as well as fostering an interest in history in a yoof who had little direction.
Never heard of a religious protest outside of a GW before.
I always assumed that Warhammer avoided the sorts of 'satan worship' accusations that D&D suffered because of they where mainly confined to Britain in the 80's and so didn't attract the attention of American evangelical churches. The CofE doesn't tend to go in for that sort of thing.
Had GW started in the States I'm willing to be there would have been a similar moral panic about miniature gaming as well.
Talizvar wrote: Raising a couple boys I can say with no reservations that you can try to hide all the violent aspects of life you want and they still pick up some stick and say "bang-bang".
Boggles my mind.
Yep. The Swedes did a study like that. Involved not exposing male children to "war toys" or war movies and even then, boys would pick up sticks and play "bang! You're dead!"
It's how they're wired.
My wife was given trucks to play with as well as dolls. She put the dolls IN the trucks and continued to play.
Well I am Christian..Kristian?I like fantsy, wargames, metal and so but well... they have a point, just look at 40k you can play for maniaks that slauther bilions of humans only for fun or whatever reason they have...Imperials are in other hand religionistic fanatics, thing that is not compatible with common sense...I am adult and can discern reality and fiction/good/evil... but what about childs? There are definitely things and games that do not have fall into the hands of children... But protesting against this games is stupid. Just look around yourself, its just everywhere and you cant hide them.
To kinds that play wars and wargames...person that never encounter or expirienced violence cant understand it and suppressing it in kind is bad coz in the end it will run out of control and that will usually end bad, parents and society have to teach children how to control anger and use it for somethinf usefull.
I hope you guys understand what I mean coz my englist is pretty shity
PS: judge people about what they like or religion or hobies is dullness.
Yep. The Swedes did a study like that. Involved not exposing male children to "war toys" or war movies and even then, boys would pick up sticks and play "bang! You're dead!"
Pretty much every hippy experiment to keep boys away from war toys or anything else competitive/aggressive results in failure. Give two boys sticks and they immediately become imaginary guns/swords.
LuciusAR wrote: Never heard of a religious protest outside of a GW before.
I always assumed that Warhammer avoided the sorts of 'satan worship' accusations that D&D suffered because of they where mainly confined to Britain in the 80's and so didn't attract the attention of American evangelical churches. The CofE doesn't tend to go in for that sort of thing.
It also helps that the CoE's motto is pretty much "If it didn't hurt anyone, how bad can it be?".
Random Dude wrote: I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
Thank God there are more like me. I have been in running groups, my gym buddies, and biking friends, and when I tell them , "hey I can't do this or that on tuesday" I get the - oh you do that thing that day right?
HOWEVER. I have learned you cannot paint after you run or workout. Your heartrate is up so high your brush shakes in your hand.
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
When Americans were introduced to the game, it was via rugby... Only with our isolationist policies and "American Spirit" we continually changed the rules and manner in which the game was played. The "death blow" for rugby (temporarily) was when President Teddy Roosevelt said that this game of football was too dangerous, and insisted that something be done to make is safer. This was about the time that we added pads or "armor"... In a rather ironic twist of fate, it's now Rugby Union that is being looked towards as a means of making American Football safer, after the monstrosity it has become has brought us to a point where player safety has become more of a concern again, and rugby is now the "safer" option
I think part of that has to do with hitting vs. tackling. In football, players just run into each other with their helmets leading to injuries. Rugby tackling is more dragging the player down which has less of an impact on the head.
It also has a lot to do with protective equipment. You don't bash your head into someone at full speed if you are just wearing a leather helmet because...it hurts like the dickens. The pain that happens when your head hits things is good at encouraging players to avoid aggressive motions that cause their brains to rattle around inside of their very well-protected skulls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vertrucio wrote: She did have a point, but she didn't really present it well.
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
However, I'm a grown adult that can see past it. But I'm also able to see that the constant barrage of war related media, whether that's from a miniature game, or from video games, does add up.
Except that there's no established correlation between engaging in play violence and engaging in actual violence. Imaginative play (including imaginatively violent play) actually helps one to learn restraint and self-discipline.
Edit: of course I should have read the rest of the posts before responding as others have made the same point.
Also, as to the 'grimdark' 40K universe, as originally conceived (not this whitewashed hideous, disturbing crap that GW throws around today) 40K was very much a (often tongue-in-cheek) criticism of society. Far from glorifying war and violence, 40K condemns it. 40K is a fethed up, hopeless place that you would never, ever, ever want to live in; a place in which violence ultimately solves no problems and creates an endless cycle of pain, destruction, and death serving only to please the dark forces born of mankind's base emotions.
40K pretty much tells us that violence is never the answer to anything. 40K tells us that we should put aside fear, paranoia, and mistrust. 40K tells us that totalitarianism is born of fear and leads to corruption and societal collapse. The Imperium of Mankind is literally a stagnant society grasping onto the pale reflection of shattered hubris caught in an endless cycle of violence from which there will be no escape. In the grim dark future there is only war because humanity screwed the pooch.
40K is utterly, comically, hopeless. Hopelessness puts the grim in gimdark, and without the grim, the narrative loses all value.
I ain't gonna lie, very few people know that I play 40K. And most would be shocked that I do even though I have $$$$$ in models. I hide them very well when people come over. The thing is, 40K is my only 'nerd' hobby. And its not very high on my list of things I like to do. But I do enjoy building the armies (which is the most expensive part).
I think why people roll their eyes when they find out someone is a wargammer is because they envision people getting into heated arguements about stupid stuff like who would beat who in a fight or getting angry because a director went a different direction with a super hero movie than they would have liked. Also, people think cosplay is pretty silly (unless you are a hot women wearing a skimpy outfit).
I, like most people, have no problem with people that like star wars, comics, star trek, lord of the rings, and such. It's just people that get so wrapped up in it that it becomes a turn off. I think it's the obsession with fiction that really gives gamers a bad name. And adults watching Japanese cartoons, too.
I'm not judging, you should do what makes you happy. But, for the most part, that's what people envision when you say you are a gamer. Video games are more acceptable because they are easy to get into and most kids grow up with them.
Toofast wrote: In a couple short weeks I will be drinking beer and watching football (real football, not that pansy foot fairy crap you brits watch) while painting/playing.
I'm curious - given that the players seem to carry or throw the ball most of the time, why do Americans call their Armoured Rugby football? It just seems a very strange name for it. At least in the version the rest of the world calls football (and they have you Yanks somewhat outnumbered) the nomenclature makes sense.
BTW, this query is not from a football fan, but a cricket fan.
When Americans were introduced to the game, it was via rugby... Only with our isolationist policies and "American Spirit" we continually changed the rules and manner in which the game was played. The "death blow" for rugby (temporarily) was when President Teddy Roosevelt said that this game of football was too dangerous, and insisted that something be done to make is safer. This was about the time that we added pads or "armor"... In a rather ironic twist of fate, it's now Rugby Union that is being looked towards as a means of making American Football safer, after the monstrosity it has become has brought us to a point where player safety has become more of a concern again, and rugby is now the "safer" option
I think part of that has to do with hitting vs. tackling. In football, players just run into each other with their helmets leading to injuries. Rugby tackling is more dragging the player down which has less of an impact on the head.
It also has a lot to do with protective equipment. You don't bash your head into someone at full speed if you are just wearing a leather helmet because...it hurts like the dickens. The pain that happens when your head hits things is good at encouraging players to avoid aggressive motions that cause their brains to rattle around inside of their very well-protected skulls.
America hasn't been isolationist in anything since 1917. And American Football, when it was first played at a Rutgers University vs Princeton University in 1869, was a combination of Rugby and soccer. So feet were used a lot inititally and that's why its called Football. It then became more rugby like in the late 1800's. In 1905 Walter camp set it on the path to what it is today by adding a line of scrimmage, downs, and the foward pass. We just never changed the name.
As a life time American Football fan, and someone that has played some rugby (and must practice tomorrow night in the texas heat) I appreciate the differences in both sports. They truly are different sports and I think that the world is a better place because of that. Also, not only do rugby rules prohibit a lot of the hits you see in the NFL, rugby is a social sport. You drink with your teammates after practice and you drink with your opponents after games. American Football is not like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naberiel wrote: Please, dont take it as insult, but people that hiding they hobby that they like are hypocrites.
How does that make me a hypocrite? Did I insult the hobby? I just pointed out what outsiders see about the hobby that turns them off. I also don't tell people that I love certain scandalous acts in the bedroom cause it's none of their business. Does that make me a hypocrite as well? I enjoy building the models and creating armies (and sometimes painting them). I like playing, to a lesser extent. But hate the fluff and pay it no mind. I actually wish that they'd stop making the fluff and focus on models and rules so my codexes and rulebooks could be cheaper.
Well, elderly people are quite ignorant of current culture, and they seem to think that playing with pan lids and pretending to drive a car is still "in".
lliu wrote: Well, elderly people are quite ignorant of current culture, and they seem to think that playing with pan lids and pretending to drive a car is still "in".
I know a lady who still thinks that the internet is "sad" and only for "nerds"...
Random Dude wrote: I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
Thank God there are more like me. I have been in running groups, my gym buddies, and biking friends, and when I tell them , "hey I can't do this or that on tuesday" I get the - oh you do that thing that day right?
HOWEVER. I have learned you cannot paint after you run or workout. Your heartrate is up so high your brush shakes in your hand.
This is very true. Our FLGS has a bunch of people who are quite athletic. The owner and several regulars are part of multiple different teams on an indoor soccer league. Several regulars at the store play on a club rugby team. Several members and even an employee are "Crossfitters." There was an employee who played on a local college varsity lacrosse team. Several people played football in high school. An employee and several regulars are active in martial arts (everything from krav maga, to juijitsu, to kendo). Myself, I played competitive volleyball for 20 years before my vertical all went away.
While there are a lot of the stereotypical un-athletic types at the store, there are lots of people who enjoy athletic competition, as well.
lliu wrote: Well, elderly people are quite ignorant of current culture, and they seem to think that playing with pan lids and pretending to drive a car is still "in".
I know a lady who still thinks that the internet is "sad" and only for "nerds"...
Random Dude wrote: I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
Thank God there are more like me. I have been in running groups, my gym buddies, and biking friends, and when I tell them , "hey I can't do this or that on tuesday" I get the - oh you do that thing that day right?
HOWEVER. I have learned you cannot paint after you run or workout. Your heartrate is up so high your brush shakes in your hand.
Same here josey - just swap biking for boxing. There's a few guys in work that are the same.
Best thing I ever did was get out of 'pure' gamer culture. It's a nice place, but can get very bitchy and incestuous. It's better to have a foot planted firmly in the 'sports and athletics' section too. Healthier too.
Which would you rather do? A ten mile run, or paint a space marine?
I have never encountered any problems due to my wargaming, but I usually explain it in a humurous way that shows that I am selfaware that it is playing with toy soliders or joke that it is Märklin train sets for people born in the '80s. I have never encountered anyone not understanding that it is a game. It might be because we use different words for playing (spela in swedish) a game and playing (leka in swedish) like children do.
The reason that there are so few women in the nerdy hobbies is not only because of the prejudice against it, it is also because some gamers and games seem hell bent of keeping women out, with both content of games and the behaviour of the gamers.
Talizvar wrote: Raising a couple boys I can say with no reservations that you can try to hide all the violent aspects of life you want and they still pick up some stick and say "bang-bang".
Boggles my mind.
Yep. The Swedes did a study like that. Involved not exposing male children to "war toys" or war movies and even then, boys would pick up sticks and play "bang! You're dead!"
It's how they're wired.
My wife was given trucks to play with as well as dolls. She put the dolls IN the trucks and continued to play.
Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
She did have a point, but she didn't really present it well.
War glorification was an aspect of wargaming for a long time and it's right to be concerned about it.
However, I'm a grown adult that can see past it. But I'm also able to see that the constant barrage of war related media, whether that's from a miniature game, or from video games, does add up.
Others have responded to this in a thoughtful way, and it is a very interesting topic. I personally would have a hard time to play games set in WWI and WWII, even though I have a huge interest in history. Simply because they are to close and too horrible. Too real. I prefer either fictional universes or historicals that are way back in history.
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
Well, I don't have children. But I have enough friends with children who would not agree with you. I have talked often enough about how their children are influenced to lay off toys that have been their favorites, because they have heard that they "are for boys/girls" to trust those observations. I can also well as my own upbringing where me and my brothers had dolls and toy kitchens as well as toy swords and toy cars. And tons of LEGO of course! We played with it all.
Honestly though, I am not very interested in discussing this right here. The other topics in this thread are far to interesting to get in to a discussion which probably will lead nowhere, and go waaay OT...
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
Of course you haven't. Every parent wants to believe they have a greater influence on how their child comes out than genetics. That doesn't make it true.
I have a daughter, and of course she's already picking up gender roles. While it might not be perfect, I think it's a reality of our society that will take generations to change. My goal is to raise her in a manner where I can break gender roles and social stereotypes where it's feasible, but more importantly to raise her to be thoughtful and tolerant, so that hopefully when she raises her kids and they raise theirs, the evolution can continue and they can continue to break down social inequalities.
And.... one of my ways of doing that will be to expose her to wargaming (and nerd culture in general). Maybe she'll like it, maybe she won't, but she most likely won't be intolerant of it because she's been exposed to it. That's how we evolve as a society.
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
I am a parent, and you can add me to your list that place nurture in at least equal measure with nature. You can feth a kid up...badly. And as a parent, you don't, and can't, control everything your child is exposed to. Your children are being socialized by the society around you. They are being taught about gender norms by just about everything they see around them, and they soak that gak up like a damn sponge.
You can't dictate everything that your children will see, and hear, and experience. But as a parent you can provide guidance and context to help them become the kind of person (broadly speaking) that you earnestly hope they will be. Talizvar's post is an excellent example. Edit: and Slowthar's post above.
Talizvar wrote: Raising a couple boys I can say with no reservations that you can try to hide all the violent aspects of life you want and they still pick up some stick and say "bang-bang". Boggles my mind.
The tactic of coupling respect for a given subject and not cherry picking aspects of it I feel is important. We have gone to war museums, discussed the heavy cost, the atrocities, the actual causes of war and how they end. The difficulties people faced and the people employed to try to end the carnage become an interesting topic. I would rather get into the real world, demonstrable cost of violence and the various ways it was applied before I have to explain Wolverine from X-men.
This is very true. Our FLGS has a bunch of people who are quite athletic. Several regulars at the store play on a club rugby team.
Please tell me where you live, so that I may make pilgrimage to this holy site!!! (I'm probably the only hooker on this site, or at least the only one to admit to such ) I know rugby is big in my area (well, as bit as rugby in the US can really be, we did just have the US National Club 7s Championships up here), but I've yet to see a gaming store that houses multiple athletic types
It also has a lot to do with protective equipment. You don't bash your head into someone at full speed if you are just wearing a leather helmet because...it hurts like the dickens. The pain that happens when your head hits things is good at encouraging players to avoid aggressive motions that cause their brains to rattle around inside of their very well-protected skulls.
Louisiana. So back woods they still use leather helmets for football
Random Dude wrote: I took a lot of crap in Elementary School for my interest in Wargaming. As far as stereotypes go, I don't fit the standard wargamer stereotype held by many others. I'm a longtime athlete and fitness guru who happens to really enjoy wargaming. It puts me in an awkward position because I can't fully relate to either side.
*edit- I don't see why wargaming and sports/other athletic activities have to be mutually exclusive.
Thank God there are more like me. I have been in running groups, my gym buddies, and biking friends, and when I tell them , "hey I can't do this or that on tuesday" I get the - oh you do that thing that day right?
HOWEVER. I have learned you cannot paint after you run or workout. Your heartrate is up so high your brush shakes in your hand.
Same here josey - just swap biking for boxing. There's a few guys in work that are the same.
Best thing I ever did was get out of 'pure' gamer culture. It's a nice place, but can get very bitchy and incestuous. It's better to have a foot planted firmly in the 'sports and athletics' section too. Healthier too.
Which would you rather do? A ten mile run, or paint a space marine?
Amen. You are my kind of people. RUN.
My next half marathon is in october so training is already in progress. But with midwest winters, gaming is where I go. And you are spot on, it keeps you mentally firm and healthy buddy
Which would you rather do? A ten mile run, or paint a space marine?
Amen. You are my kind of people. RUN.
My next half marathon is in october so training is already in progress. But with midwest winters, gaming is where I go. And you are spot on, it keeps you mentally firm and healthy buddy
Yeah, I'd honestly rather play rugby all day (and drink afterwards) than paint a space marine.... That's not to say that sunday after a brutal match I'll rather play rugby (because getting that beat up, I'll sit my happy ass down and paint, just so long as I dont move and have those "car wreck" feelings)
Shandara wrote: The argument that kids can somehow not separate fiction and reality is brought up a lot. There are claims for and against every so often in the media.
"Won't somebody think of the children!"
I often wonder if religious crusaders let their children read the old testament , hell, even the new testament with Herod and Revelations.
Shandara wrote: The argument that kids can somehow not separate fiction and reality is brought up a lot. There are claims for and against every so often in the media.
"Won't somebody think of the children!"
I often wonder if religious crusaders let their children read the old testament , hell, even the new testament with Herod and Revelations.
TBH I doubt most religous crusaders read the bible either, just google "bible qoutes against..."
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
I am a parent, and you can add me to your list that place nurture in at least equal measure with nature. You can feth a kid up...badly. And as a parent, you don't, and can't, control everything your child is exposed to. Your children are being socialized by the society around you. They are being taught about gender norms by just about everything they see around them, and they soak that gak up like a damn sponge.
You can't dictate everything that your children will see, and hear, and experience. But as a parent you can provide guidance and context to help them become the kind of person (broadly speaking) that you earnestly hope they will be. Talizvar's post is an excellent example. Edit: and Slowthar's post above.
I'm not sure that you're properly responding to my point. My point is the same as Talizvar's...that boys and girls are wired differently, and will gravitate toward different toys and interests regardless of what pressure you place on them. That's the struggle that some transgendered people go through, right? That they just can't identify with a given gender no matter how much parental and societal pressure has been placed on them throughout their lives.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding jorny's explanation of those studies he's referring to, but it sure sounds like they're claiming some kind of gender neutrality in the absence of these pressures. Which I simply don't buy.
Of course you can teach them things, like the gravity of war.
I'm not sure that you're properly responding to my point. My point is the same as Talizvar's...that boys and girls are wired differently, and will gravitate toward different toys and interests regardless of what pressure you place on them. That's the struggle that some transgendered people go through, right? That they just can't identify with a given gender no matter how much parental and societal pressure has been placed on them throughout their lives.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding jorny's explanation of those studies he's referring to, but it sure sounds like they're claiming some kind of gender neutrality in the absence of these pressures. Which I simply don't buy.
Of course you can teach them things, like the gravity of war.
I'd definitely agree with this... my kids are 4 and 2 (one of each gender) and I gotta say that they each have no problem playing with hot wheels, legos, dolls, etc... My daughter tends to play with the "boy toys" in a more gentle, nurturing sort of way, whereas the boy, even when grabbing/playing with his sisters' doll, basically destroys it (it flies, gets body slammed, crushed, etc) and generally plays with it as if it were any GI Joe toy.
Interesting, how are those people that believe that table top war games glorify war think about more abstract games like;
Chess could be considered a war-game, Igo is definitely a battle for area control. How about board games? Some of those could be thought of as glorifying violence, lying, backstabbing, deceiving etcetera.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Interesting, how are those people that believe that table top war games glorify war think about more abstract games like;
Chess could be considered a war-game, Igo is definitely a battle for area control. How about board games? Some of those could be thought of as glorifying violence, lying, backstabbing, deceiving etcetera.
All those games of Monoply, training me for the real world.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Interesting, how are those people that believe that table top war games glorify war think about more abstract games like;
Chess could be considered a war-game, Igo is definitely a battle for area control. How about board games? Some of those could be thought of as glorifying violence, lying, backstabbing, deceiving etcetera.
All those games of Monoply, training me for the real world.
I don't tell people I play this game. It's just something I like to do on my own. Whenever I have house parties I throw a sheet over the painting table. It cracks me up. What's funny though, is this chick was in the room just chilling out and she must have peeped under the sheet and she came out into the main room where the party was cranking and she was like "Hey! You paint Warhammer!" and I was like *runs over, grabs it off her and tucking into my pocket* "Oi shush, I don't want everyone to know I'm a nerd." and she was like "Your painting is really good." - then I was like, mmm, yea boy. Warhammer skillz pull da ladies.
I'm not sure that you're properly responding to my point. My point is the same as Talizvar's...that boys and girls are wired differently, and will gravitate toward different toys and interests regardless of what pressure you place on them. That's the struggle that some transgendered people go through, right? That they just can't identify with a given gender no matter how much parental and societal pressure has been placed on them throughout their lives.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding jorny's explanation of those studies he's referring to, but it sure sounds like they're claiming some kind of gender neutrality in the absence of these pressures. Which I simply don't buy.
Of course you can teach them things, like the gravity of war.
I'd definitely agree with this... my kids are 4 and 2 (one of each gender) and I gotta say that they each have no problem playing with hot wheels, legos, dolls, etc... My daughter tends to play with the "boy toys" in a more gentle, nurturing sort of way, whereas the boy, even when grabbing/playing with his sisters' doll, basically destroys it (it flies, gets body slammed, crushed, etc) and generally plays with it as if it were any GI Joe toy.
I had Action Men when I was a kid.
One ended up on the roof of our three storey house (in my defence it had a parachute and was supposed to be thrown into the air).
Another one was obliterated when I used the washing line as a slingshot and launched him at a fence. It was really quite beautiful the way the limbs came apart.
And I dressed one in a camo jacket, placed him on a pile of leaves and artfully arranged leaves to camouflage him. I promptly forgot where he was and found him days later, after heavy rain. His joins were never quite the same again...
I find approaching the subject from a painting and modeling point of view sets the hooks nicely for most people, then you can mention "oh and there's rules to use them for fights and the like"
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I find approaching the subject from a painting and modeling point of view sets the hooks nicely for most people, then you can mention "oh and there's rules to use them for fights and the like"
Agreed. My grandmother is 88 years old and has always painted ceramic figurines. I never really made the connection between that and the fact that I like to paint models until recently. I think there's something genetic that makes that aspect of the hobby enjoyable to certain people. I find it relaxing and rewarding when I finish a miniature.
i find that i won't mention it at work, even though i dont actually game,only model/paint, because of the stigma associated with it, and being in the armed forces, there are some less than intelligent folk who would jump upon it, although 2 or 3 of my good friends from my unit know that i do, and dont say anything about it. overall, i think stuff like this that would be steroetypically 'nerdy' are becoming less so nowadays. retro videogames, comic books etc, are becoming more and more in vogue..and i think this is definately in part due to tattooing and its growing popularit y. a great number of the tattooists on my instagram also paint/play warhammer. and tattoos themselves are perfect for that sort of scene..demons, swords through heads, skulls, sexy ladies... whats not to love? and with that, all the people who are getting into tattoos are starting to find that sort of thing cool..and thus, the similar things also open up to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kill3RKiD wrote: I don't tell people I play this game. It's just something I like to do on my own. Whenever I have house parties I throw a sheet over the painting table. It cracks me up. What's funny though, is this chick was in the room just chilling out and she must have peeped under the sheet and she came out into the main room where the party was cranking and she was like "Hey! You paint Warhammer!" and I was like *runs over, grabs it off her and tucking into my pocket* "Oi shush, I don't want everyone to know I'm a nerd." and she was like "Your painting is really good." - then I was like, mmm, yea boy. Warhammer skillz pull da ladies.
i feel like youve left this story unfinished..
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps, if any fellow brits want to see a good looking gal, go to the oxford street store in london, theres a very pretty lady who works there
queen_annes_revenge wrote: i find that i won't mention it at work, even though i dont actually game,only model/paint, because of the stigma associated with it, and being in the armed forces, there are some less than intelligent folk who would jump upon it, although 2 or 3 of my good friends from my unit know that i do, and dont say anything about it. overall, i think stuff like this that would be steroetypically 'nerdy' are becoming less so nowadays. retro videogames, comic books etc, are becoming more and more in vogue..and i think this is definately in part due to tattooing and its growing popularit y. a great number of the tattooists on my instagram also paint/play warhammer. and tattoos themselves are perfect for that sort of scene..demons, swords through heads, skulls, sexy ladies... whats not to love? and with that, all the people who are getting into tattoos are starting to find that sort of thing cool..and thus, the similar things also open up to them.
Maybe the UKs military is weird, but I know that in the US military, if you cant find a game on/around base, you're doing it wrong... Gaming is, quietly huge in the army.. It's funny, because some guys wont mention it at work like you, but then they'll see a guy from work, play against him, and occasionally not even realize that they work near each other all the time.
It also has a lot to do with protective equipment. You don't bash your head into someone at full speed if you are just wearing a leather helmet because...it hurts like the dickens. The pain that happens when your head hits things is good at encouraging players to avoid aggressive motions that cause their brains to rattle around inside of their very well-protected skulls.
Louisiana. So back woods they still use leather helmets for football
You know what I meant :/. When american football players used leather helmets there were less injuries of the sort we see today, and I didn't know the name of that lightly padded rugby headgear, which is apparently called a scrum cap. In any case, the point is that, ironically, the protective equipment is likely a significant cause of the injuries.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: i find that i won't mention it at work, even though i dont actually game,only model/paint, because of the stigma associated with it, and being in the armed forces, there are some less than intelligent folk who would jump upon it, although 2 or 3 of my good friends from my unit know that i do, and dont say anything about it. overall, i think stuff like this that would be steroetypically 'nerdy' are becoming less so nowadays. retro videogames, comic books etc, are becoming more and more in vogue..and i think this is definately in part due to tattooing and its growing popularit y. a great number of the tattooists on my instagram also paint/play warhammer. and tattoos themselves are perfect for that sort of scene..demons, swords through heads, skulls, sexy ladies... whats not to love? and with that, all the people who are getting into tattoos are starting to find that sort of thing cool..and thus, the similar things also open up to them.
Maybe the UKs military is weird, but I know that in the US military, if you cant find a game on/around base, you're doing it wrong... Gaming is, quietly huge in the army.. It's funny, because some guys wont mention it at work like you, but then they'll see a guy from work, play against him, and occasionally not even realize that they work near each other all the time.
A lot of the UK's military is populated by the following:
1) Real manly men (You dare question my manliness? I certainly do not "play")
2) Chavs or Ex-Chavs, who seem to be genetically adverse to wargaming
3) People with little to no money or time (How can you waste so much?)
4) The average person who lived through an education with the above.
jorny wrote: Your wife is probably the best example here. I have never heard of the study you refer to. I have only seen Swedish studies that show that kids are very influenced by societal pressure, but provided toys that are gendered both "boy" and "girl" from the start, children will play with both regardless of their sex. So there is nothing that says that boys in particular are wired to play war. There are however a lot of things that point to that there is a drive in children to play games that involve some degee of physical struggle with each other, and this is regardless if they are boys or girls.
Do you have children?
I haven't met many parents who don't think nature is easily the dominant factor over nuture. And I trust those observations -- even if they may be biased -- over the limited kind of observations that a study can conduct.
I am a parent, and you can add me to your list that place nurture in at least equal measure with nature. You can feth a kid up...badly. And as a parent, you don't, and can't, control everything your child is exposed to. Your children are being socialized by the society around you. They are being taught about gender norms by just about everything they see around them, and they soak that gak up like a damn sponge.
You can't dictate everything that your children will see, and hear, and experience. But as a parent you can provide guidance and context to help them become the kind of person (broadly speaking) that you earnestly hope they will be. Talizvar's post is an excellent example. Edit: and Slowthar's post above.
I'm not sure that you're properly responding to my point. My point is the same as Talizvar's...that boys and girls are wired differently, and will gravitate toward different toys and interests regardless of what pressure you place on them. That's the struggle that some transgendered people go through, right? That they just can't identify with a given gender no matter how much parental and societal pressure has been placed on them throughout their lives.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding jorny's explanation of those studies he's referring to, but it sure sounds like they're claiming some kind of gender neutrality in the absence of these pressures. Which I simply don't buy.
Of course you can teach them things, like the gravity of war.
That is precisely what I was responding to. I do not think boys and girls are "wired" that differently, and I did not get the impression that Talizvar's post had anything to do with it one way or another. I think his post did have relevance to my other point about child rearing. I think you read into that post what you wanted to see. Just because a boy is going to pick up a stick and go "bang bang" does not mean boys are bilogically predisposed to do that.
And as a parent, you don't, and can't, control everything your child is exposed to. Your children are being socialized by the society around you. They are being taught about gender norms by just about everything they see around them, and they soak that gak up like a damn sponge.
Simply put, gender is predominantly socialized, as opposed to being biological. That point is made rather explicitly in my post, as you can see from the quote above.
This is pretty damn well understood and well researched. Sex = biology, gender = socialization. Because I can't control everything my boys are exposed to, they are going to be exposed to gender norm socialization. You can try to fight it, but you aren't going to win that fight, because boys in our western society will probably pick up a stick and go "bang bang" with it even if you don't give them guns to play with and try to keep them from being exposed to violent media.
If you take your kids to the playground...uh oh! They are playing with other kids whose parents are not restricting their children's access to gender norm socialization. Ergo, now your child is being exposed to it. You can put your kid in a box and feed it through a tube if you want, but you'd cause far more problems then you'd solve, assuming you think gender norms are a 'problem'.
Azreal13 wrote: There is no escaping the fact that these hobbies to attract a slightly disproportionate number of the socially awkward. That it's "not a thing for girls" might have meant that it isn't "sexy." She's right, it isn't, but in my experience it isn't so much the hobby itself that's not sexy so much as the sort of gamer that takes the whole thing slightly too seriously.
Slightly disproportionate? Since I restarted playing 6 months ago I've resigned myself to that 90% of people are socially awkward and hampered by massive egos in some way or another. Out of the 5 first people I met in my local GW four of them had speech impediments (all different ones); one had a stutter, another whispered, the third guy immediately told me "don't play against these guys cause they're WAAC and donkey-caves" in a totally bizarre windy voice (I can't describe it in any other way), and the fifth guy, who was in his late teens and who couldn't say "r", was swinging from leg to leg, his massive belly almost totalling the nearby games tables as he bellowed "I AM A SPACE MUWEEN!" across the store. I have no problem with people with speech impediments, but these were all guys with serious social issues. Luckily, the fourth guy was a nice, chatty guy!
I played a tournament where one guy told me all about his awesome Chaos guys and his awesome unkillable Nurgle Chaos Lord, who then started shaking with rage because he lost due to first blood. I hated that game as I was stood next to a guy with the most serious BO problem I've ever encountered. I was gagging throughout the game and the entire store smelled of sweat and cheetos. I HONESTLY thought the stereotypical neckbeards was a rarity until I played that tournament.
My brother and I went into the local GW 'cause he was a bit curious, but the stench of sweat and the people there was enough to put him off. For all the hate GW staff sometimes get for their sales techniques, he found them far more polite and nice than the landwhales slouching around the store.
Poppabear wrote: Wargaming will probably always never be socially acceptable which is sad because its such a fantastic thing, its social, fun, and you gain A LOT of useful skills along the way. But, it isn't going out on the town, drinking a lot, indulging in the useless dramas young people get into, just making a general knob of yourself (which to be honest I join in on a lot, cause its a good time! ;D)
Its that stereotypical socially inept fat guy who never leaves his house, that has cheedo stains on the top and bottom of his sweat stained shirt and smells like mothballs... which I have encountered to many times. that people are put off by, and manage to think that's what the majority of wargamers look like. I mean, if your that guy, just friggen clean your self, you actually do all us wargamers a favor by not putting yourself to that stereotype.
I'm usually pretty smartly presented, and I'm easy to converse with, thankfully. Though, I've never seen much point in what many people in my school used to call fun, which was getting drunk and then staggering around for several hours making racist comments and damaging property.
Maybe it's culture shock, like Blue and Orange morality.
Going out on the town and getting wasted gains you social skills (though doing it sober is better), which the wargaming community as a whole struggles with. Leading on from the "slightly disproportionate" comment, the pick up community, which I've been heavily into for years, have a lot of people of similar disposition to the wargaming community as far as social angst and skills go. However, some/most go out up to 7 days a week and spend hours every week improving their social skills by talking to strangers and acquiring good habits that help them in life, be it taking care of their bodies, reading good literature (BL is the literal equivalent to McDonald's) or learning financial skills. The wargaming community is very different there's no culture for self improvement even though there are people who take care of themselves, but to a much smaller extent than most mainstream hobbies.
As far as clothing goes... well, this is the GW dress code, nevermind the black band t-shirts with Hammerfall (or something with wolves/dragons etc), cargo trousers, and if the boots aren't on you can bet they're those sporty hill walking shoes or worn-out trainers. And seriously, goatees look like gak. Wargamers tend to be more uniform than goths and emos.
slowthar wrote: OP, if you think that's a close-minded view, you should've asked her her opinion on gay marriage, minorities, and her least favorite political party. Turns out old people don't like a LOT of stuff.
It's a good exercise for all wargamers to grapple with this kind of judgement by others to remind them of two things:
1. You could really take it to heart and feel like a victim, but would that really get you anything? No. You have to learn to ignore other people's opinions of you, because they don't matter.
2. The next time you're quick to judge someone who has completely different interests, think about how un-informed others are who judge you.
These are prime example of what people think of wargamers (though some of this might be tongue in cheek). Thinking that spending hours and hundreds of pounds on toy soldiers is weird does not mean they hate minorities and gays. The entire community is full of faux-intellectual atheist preacher liberals (but not liberal in the classical sense of the word). Look at the wargaming twitterfeeds and there's an obscene amount of knee-jerk hate for anything conservative (this includes BL writers), which I presume is due to their massive egos. This is mostly Yuropean wargamers mind.
My prime example is me walking into GW and chatting to one of the staff, when he casually states, verbatim, that "the Tories blame the poor for everything." This was not tongue in cheek.
Naberiel wrote: Please, dont take it as insult, but people that hiding they hobby that they like are hypocrites.
This is also very true. Hiding your hobby due to being ashamed is generally due to a massive ego that doesn't want bruised - I once did an experiment where my brother and I pulled two chicks back to mine and I had on purpose left loads of 40k miniatures on the kitchen table. It didn't even register. However, there's a massive difference between hiding/denying you're a wargamer and being all crossfit about it.
The reason that there are so few women in the nerdy hobbies is not only because of the prejudice against it, it is also because some gamers and games seem hell bent of keeping women out, with both content of games and the behaviour of the gamers.
Another problem is that most women aren't drawn to wargaming, but aye, the fedora-tippers and white knights are fething bizarre and freak women the f-out.
tl;dr - the stereotypes (or median) are more or less true which reinforces people's opinion of wargamers.
Can I just say my comment was half joking and half serious, I have seen way to many people using religion to bash on things (homosexuality is always a fun topic) but then when confronted they reveal they dont have as much knowlegde of the bible as they claim. But at the same time I have nothing against religion of people disaproving of actions due to their religion (hell theres a whole argument on youtube where I defend a homophobic christian from an athiest because no one should ever have their religion attacked) but I dislike those who try and force their beliefs about their religion on others; i.e. religous crusaders.
Basically I was being sarcastic about a topic I have experienced (thanks to youtube...)
Monopoly is very much training for real life, it shows you never to give a 13 year old a break at anything.. and to watch family members more closely than you most hated foe.
Does that game actually have a rulebook? not sure I've ever seen it they seem to be "lost" to be replaced with a huge range of suspicious sounding rules that are apparently in the rules but "we lost them so sorry can't show you", see above comment on never trusting a 13 year old..
Not bitter...
Honest guv.
And the tories are to blame for everything, as are the rest of the cheating weasels of all colours...
Everyone wants something to bash, some way to feel superior, gamers get the short end of the stick as we seldom fight back, or for that matter appear to notice.
At college I used to play Star Fleet Battles in the canteen at lunch time and indeed during any spare time, group of about ten of us played it. Some had "problems" with that, mind you they had more of a problem when one of my fellow gamers pointed out that at some ill defined point in the future he would own a house with a pool, and would perhaps hire this guy to clean it..
As the saying goes thats when the fight started..
Turns out several of my fellow gamers also studied both martial arts and had spent time leaving in Manchester. Fight didn't last long, and since as a group we we no trouble to anyone and turned up to classes it wasn't us who got thrown out at lunchtimes..
Me? I look down on people with silly suitcases who walk slowly, I have to look down at them as they are on the floor, under the bus where I pushed them.. Well everyone has to feel superior to someone...
The older great unwashed I have no excuses for them.
The problem is holding against someone something they cannot change. Speech impediments, physical features, mental "challenges" should not be ridiculed because they have no choice.
Religion is more "choice" but how you are raised and dare I say "indoctrination" applied there was not.
I think the "observations" that are the most hurtful is "how could you waste your time with that?".
While other "grown-up" men of my age go drink at the bar and cheer-on some professional athletes on the TV.
Heck, I can do anything I need, surprising how many men cannot cook and their wife seems to be a direct replacement for their mom in care and upkeep.
Things you choose not to learn, things you choose to do are subject to judgment no matter what: it is part of life.
As long as anyone does something different from the majority it will always be judged since it appears to be deviant behavior in their world view.
I have never met a woman (this goes both for co-workers, acquaintances, friends or love interests) who had a problem with the fact that I play Warhammer or other nerdy games. And I can't see why being a gamer should be a problem when meeting a partner.
As i said earlier, how you are met when saying you are a gamer goes down to how you present it, and yourself in general. Of course, you can always be unlucky and meet the odd hater, but I think that is rare.
I never play at a store, I prefer to play with a group of friends. Simply because I want to play with people I would spend time even if there wasn't any gaming involved. I also prefer to shop at FLGS's that are run like real serious shops and not like an arena for neck beards, shops that even casual gamers and people in general feel comfortable visisting. I am lucky to have two of those in my home town.
Oh, and I dont see why there should be a problem with anyone being a bit socially awkward, as long as you best to be a nice, kind and emphatic person. And no one should be mocked for having a speech impediment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
You know what I meant :/. When american football players used leather helmets there were less injuries of the sort we see today, and I didn't know the name of that lightly padded rugby headgear, which is apparently called a scrum cap. In any case, the point is that, ironically, the protective equipment is likely a significant cause of the injuries.
Yeah... Scrum Cap is the "proper name" for them. And honestly, the ONLY thing they really protect against is cauliflower ear (and potentially frostbite, if you're playing in a game that's cold enough).
Young teenagers and old teenagers will always have a bit of a whiff about them, thats why we love baths and showers and aftershaves and deoderants. At the end of the day, I am larger then average, as such I sweat more then average (not too much mind you) so I bathe daily, wash well, and apply roll on anti-perspirent and also spray deoderant+anti-perspirant daily, and if I leave the house I also apply aftershave to make sure I stink as little as possible. I also usually take deoderant and aftershave with me if I have a bag. If more wargamers did similar things we wouldnt have a reputation as BO smelling people (Not saying I'm amazing or anything, just I do what I need to minimize my BO)
DukeBadham wrote: Young teenagers and old teenagers will always have a bit of a whiff about them, thats why we love baths and showers and aftershaves and deoderants. At the end of the day, I am larger then average, as such I sweat more then average (not too much mind you) so I bathe daily, wash well, and apply roll on anti-perspirent and also spray deoderant+anti-perspirant daily, and if I leave the house I also apply aftershave to make sure I stink as little as possible. I also usually take deoderant and aftershave with me if I have a bag. If more wargamers did similar things we wouldnt have a reputation as BO smelling people (Not saying I'm amazing or anything, just I do what I need to minimize my BO)
I agree, but to be fair, the place where I play is hot as crap and I sweat like crazy. I'm all for hygiene, but sometimes it is the environment that makes players stinky too
DukeBadham wrote: Young teenagers and old teenagers will always have a bit of a whiff about them, thats why we love baths and showers and aftershaves and deoderants. At the end of the day, I am larger then average, as such I sweat more then average (not too much mind you) so I bathe daily, wash well, and apply roll on anti-perspirent and also spray deoderant+anti-perspirant daily, and if I leave the house I also apply aftershave to make sure I stink as little as possible. I also usually take deoderant and aftershave with me if I have a bag. If more wargamers did similar things we wouldnt have a reputation as BO smelling people (Not saying I'm amazing or anything, just I do what I need to minimize my BO)
I agree, but to be fair, the place where I play is hot as crap and I sweat like crazy. I'm all for hygiene, but sometimes it is the environment that makes players stinky too
This. ^
In my experience, the majority of GW stores I've visited were always hot and stuffy.
yeah but theres a difference between getting a bit sweaty during general daytime activity, and having BO, which is a result of not showering/washing for a few days. without doubt this is what i consider the worst part of enjoying things that are a bit nerdy.. i went to a retro videogames convention the other weekend, and ever so often you'd get an overpowering whiff from someone or another..its was like biological warfare. grim.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: See?
Identified root cause, GW not to be cheap on air conditioning, think of it as producing an ideal sales environment.
my local store did invest in AC during the hot summer months this year.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: i find that i won't mention it at work, even though i dont actually game,only model/paint, because of the stigma associated with it, and being in the armed forces, there are some less than intelligent folk who would jump upon it, although 2 or 3 of my good friends from my unit know that i do, and dont say anything about it. overall, i think stuff like this that would be steroetypically 'nerdy' are becoming less so nowadays. retro videogames, comic books etc, are becoming more and more in vogue..and i think this is definately in part due to tattooing and its growing popularit y. a great number of the tattooists on my instagram also paint/play warhammer. and tattoos themselves are perfect for that sort of scene..demons, swords through heads, skulls, sexy ladies... whats not to love? and with that, all the people who are getting into tattoos are starting to find that sort of thing cool..and thus, the similar things also open up to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kill3RKiD wrote: I don't tell people I play this game. It's just something I like to do on my own. Whenever I have house parties I throw a sheet over the painting table. It cracks me up. What's funny though, is this chick was in the room just chilling out and she must have peeped under the sheet and she came out into the main room where the party was cranking and she was like "Hey! You paint Warhammer!" and I was like *runs over, grabs it off her and tucking into my pocket* "Oi shush, I don't want everyone to know I'm a nerd." and she was like "Your painting is really good." - then I was like, mmm, yea boy. Warhammer skillz pull da ladies.
i feel like youve left this story unfinished..
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps, if any fellow brits want to see a good looking gal, go to the oxford street store in london, theres a very pretty lady who works there
Later that nigh she summoned the courage to tell me she contracted herpes a few months prior. I decided not to go there. She felt undesirable but I explained that I've never been a gambler and wasn't prepared to expose myself to a lifelong STD.
Thank god I only do historical games... far more normal people who can hold a conversation. Probably due to the higer average age... though our youngest club member is 21 and a sound lad.
Though our historical geeks are true Ubergeeks.
I must say, after reading this thread I will never go into a GW store again.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Chess could be considered a war-game, Igo is definitely a battle for area control. How about board games? Some of those could be thought of as glorifying violence, lying, backstabbing, deceiving etcetera.
Chess is generally considered to be the ORIGINAL war game.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: i find that i won't mention it at work, even though i dont actually game,only model/paint, because of the stigma associated with it, and being in the armed forces, there are some less than intelligent folk who would jump upon it, although 2 or 3 of my good friends from my unit know that i do, and dont say anything about it. overall, i think stuff like this that would be steroetypically 'nerdy' are becoming less so nowadays. retro videogames, comic books etc, are becoming more and more in vogue..and i think this is definately in part due to tattooing and its growing popularit y. a great number of the tattooists on my instagram also paint/play warhammer. and tattoos themselves are perfect for that sort of scene..demons, swords through heads, skulls, sexy ladies... whats not to love? and with that, all the people who are getting into tattoos are starting to find that sort of thing cool..and thus, the similar things also open up to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kill3RKiD wrote: I don't tell people I play this game. It's just something I like to do on my own. Whenever I have house parties I throw a sheet over the painting table. It cracks me up. What's funny though, is this chick was in the room just chilling out and she must have peeped under the sheet and she came out into the main room where the party was cranking and she was like "Hey! You paint Warhammer!" and I was like *runs over, grabs it off her and tucking into my pocket* "Oi shush, I don't want everyone to know I'm a nerd." and she was like "Your painting is really good." - then I was like, mmm, yea boy. Warhammer skillz pull da ladies.
i feel like youve left this story unfinished..
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps, if any fellow brits want to see a good looking gal, go to the oxford street store in london, theres a very pretty lady who works there
Later that nigh she summoned the courage to tell me she contracted herpes a few months prior. I decided not to go there. She felt undesirable but I explained that I've never been a gambler and wasn't prepared to expose myself to a lifelong STD.
well, never let the truth get in the way and all that
I've been doing Warhammer since I was about 10, maybe a little younger. I think it was third or fourth grade when I got into it.. I'm only in my 20s now, so it's not -that- long ago, but relative to me it's a huge portion of my love.
Throughout grade school everyone was impressed and wanted to play. I even managed to coerce a few of my friends (and subsequently their parents) into starting up the hobby. Most of them didn't make it very far, and matter-o-fact I still have most of their models in bits boxes. That's neither here nor there.
Once I got out of grade school though it went south. I learned pretty quickly that it wasn't nearly as 'neat' among teenagers and kept mostly to myself. Pretty much no-one I knew had any idea I did it.
As a (young) adult it's been a mixed bag, though I still tend to keep a low profile. I tend to mention it during job interviews, though I liken it more to model trains / cars planes. It goes over well due to showing that I have patience, attention to detail, yatta yatta. Amongst actual people it doesn't come out much. I had a manager once who ran a D&D group and literally hired me on the spot once I told him I played Warhammer, but then I've also gotten a never ending stream of harassment and been condemned by some.
Like I said, it's a mixed bag. Fortunately my girlfriend being involved in it tends to turn most of my friend's around mentality wise. She's really quite attractive, so at first when we go to a store or group all she gets is looks. Once it becomes clear she actually has an interest I can't even get a word in edge-wise with anyone. All the guys just want to talk to her.
I had a similar experience with a coworker who tried to belittle me for playing with toys. I just told him that it was ok for him to be scared of things he didn't understand and that he should just go home and drink his beer and beat his dog since that is what real men do. He has left me alone since.
I usually don't tell anyone that I wargame. I just say that I paint models in my spare time and it's a good way to use up those long hours on a Sunday afternoon doing something that makes you feel you have achieved something. Only when people ask and I say that I do wargame, they look at me in an odd way and say that I don't look like the sort of person that would "get into those things". I know my aunt will never really look at me in the same light for the next 20 or so years but my father seems ok with what I do. He's seen the amount of effort that goes in but my mother probably remains unconvinced. She says that entire part of the house or "my half of the second floor" is a mess. And it is, really. I've had a lot of mixed reactions when I say that I wargame but nobody has really done or said anything too nasty.
Even a cursory look at the history of chess shows that it most definitely is a war game.
Vulcan wrote:
Jehan-reznor wrote: Chess could be considered a war-game, Igo is definitely a battle for area control. How about board games? Some of those could be thought of as glorifying violence, lying, backstabbing, deceiving etcetera.
Chess is generally considered to be the ORIGINAL war game.
And you don't see parents demonizing Chess, or maybe they will after seeing the chess match in Harry Potter
I've never had a problem with my wargaming interest interfering with real life. Some of my friends don't really understand it (especially the prices lol), but no one has ever belittled me or anything for being into it; including co-workers. Most of 'em like looking at pictures of my games. Even my fiance helps me come up with painting ideas.
I really don't see the point in hiding my hobbies from anyone, if they care that much what I do, I don't want to associate with them anyways.
Robisagg wrote: I've never had a problem with my wargaming interest interfering with real life. Some of my friends don't really understand it (especially the prices lol), but no one has ever belittled me or anything for being into it; including co-workers. Most of 'em like looking at pictures of my games. Even my fiance helps me come up with painting ideas.
I really don't see the point in hiding my hobbies from anyone, if they care that much what I do, I don't want to associate with them anyways.
I guess it kind of comes down to who you hang out with, what age you are etc. Like you might hang out with total nerds, work in IT with total nerds and also have a total nerd girlfriend. I don't, so that's why it's kind of my hidden passion.
Robisagg wrote: I've never had a problem with my wargaming interest interfering with real life. Some of my friends don't really understand it (especially the prices lol), but no one has ever belittled me or anything for being into it; including co-workers. Most of 'em like looking at pictures of my games. Even my fiance helps me come up with painting ideas.
I really don't see the point in hiding my hobbies from anyone, if they care that much what I do, I don't want to associate with them anyways.
I guess it kind of comes down to who you hang out with, what age you are etc. Like you might hang out with total nerds, work in IT with total nerds and also have a total nerd girlfriend. I don't, so that's why it's kind of my hidden passion.
I suppose, although my friends group stems from my running an airsoft store, so that might have something to do with it lol. Even my non-nerdy friends (mostly from work, as a line cook and where I work currently, at a hospital), I've never had a negative reaction. The worst reaction I've had is indifference. I'm not exactly evangelical about the hobby, but I don't hide it either.
Robisagg wrote: I've never had a problem with my wargaming interest interfering with real life. Some of my friends don't really understand it (especially the prices lol), but no one has ever belittled me or anything for being into it; including co-workers. Most of 'em like looking at pictures of my games. Even my fiance helps me come up with painting ideas.
I really don't see the point in hiding my hobbies from anyone, if they care that much what I do, I don't want to associate with them anyways.
I guess it kind of comes down to who you hang out with, what age you are etc. Like you might hang out with total nerds, work in IT with total nerds and also have a total nerd girlfriend. I don't, so that's why it's kind of my hidden passion.
I sell boats, have a fiancee, im 20 and hang with a range of genders and ages. If anything, being nerdy is considered cool at the moment. Your hidden passion is your own business, but you sound like your 15 (which would explain a lot if your last post is anything to go by) and in a few years you will realize people dont care what you do once you leave college.
If anything wargaming gets people talking to me, I wear a storm trooper shirt to a party and all of a sudden I got people who dont even look like they have seen starwars more than once in their life voicing their opinions on the subject. One of my Fiancees girlfriend admitted she plays wargames and has been for ages when she found out I did. You have nothing to loose and lots to gain by being open about it. I even get paid days off work to attend wargaming related events and so on.
Unless you hang out with the scummiest of scum, wargaming isnt a problem most of the time for most people, and if it is, then chances are its more of a problem to you than it is to the other person.
I also fail to see your GF being anything important to you if you have to hide your passion from her for no real reason. It seems like your relationship wont last long
I also fail to see your GF being anything important to you if you have to hide your passion from her for no real reason. It seems like your relationship wont last long
Agreed. If she doesn't respect what you're into, she doesn't respect you. My Fiance makes fun of me a fair bit, but she also loves the fact that I have a hobby that doesn't involve me going to bars and blowing money away/shooting drugs into my arm. She even bought me my 2nd heldrake for my birthday
Robisagg wrote: I've never had a problem with my wargaming interest interfering with real life. Some of my friends don't really understand it (especially the prices lol), but no one has ever belittled me or anything for being into it; including co-workers. Most of 'em like looking at pictures of my games. Even my fiance helps me come up with painting ideas.
I really don't see the point in hiding my hobbies from anyone, if they care that much what I do, I don't want to associate with them anyways.
I guess it kind of comes down to who you hang out with, what age you are etc. Like you might hang out with total nerds, work in IT with total nerds and also have a total nerd girlfriend. I don't, so that's why it's kind of my hidden passion.
I sell boats, have a fiancee, im 20 and hang with a range of genders and ages. If anything, being nerdy is considered cool at the moment. Your hidden passion is your own business, but you sound like your 15 (which would explain a lot if your last post is anything to go by) and in a few years you will realize people dont care what you do once you leave college.
If anything wargaming gets people talking to me, I wear a storm trooper shirt to a party and all of a sudden I got people who dont even look like they have seen starwars more than once in their life voicing their opinions on the subject. One of my Fiancees girlfriend admitted she plays wargames and has been for ages when she found out I did. You have nothing to loose and lots to gain by being open about it. I even get paid days off work to attend wargaming related events and so on.
Unless you hang out with the scummiest of scum, wargaming isnt a problem most of the time for most people, and if it is, then chances are its more of a problem to you than it is to the other person.
I also fail to see your GF being anything important to you if you have to hide your passion from her for no real reason. It seems like your relationship wont last long
Calm down mate, my post was purely from observation lol. Chill out, you're appearing like I struck a nerve and had to respond with a "I sell boats" post. Lol. Boats.
My ex found my wargaming a bit nerdy, would sometimes give me sh*t for it but I'd just be like whatever b*tch you spend more money on makeup. So we both just canceled each other out and it was more playful banter than agressive attacks.
I don't hang out with the scummiest of scum, but I do hang out with a variety of different personalities. However, in their company we generally discuss common interests.
If someone notices my wargaming, or mentions it, I'm more than happy to dicuss it with them and give them insight into my nerdy little passion. That's cool and I'm fine with that.
You're 20 with a fiancee? Lol. I'll stop here before I get in trouble.
I do sell boats, means I can buy a house and get married at my age. But its not IT, and I can talk about my hobbies. Which is in direct conflict with what you said. Thats the only reason I stated it.
Seriously mate, learn to type with maturity. But I was simply responding to your post which essentially said "I cant talk about my passion because it would ruin my life and I will end up a stereotype". I was simply stating my experience. People dont mean talk about their hobby 24/7 in this thread, its just about mentioning it and getting reactions. You made it sound like unless you are the stereotype, you cant talk about it etc.
I also didnt type anything to hint I was angry/upset. It had more pity than anything. Im sure, with your poor choice of words, you offended someone out there.
Nothing wrong with getting married dude... sheesh.
I think you took my post personally (hence the angsty response). That was far from the intention. Simply putting, in my experience, you are wrong. Thats all.
Swastakowey wrote: I do sell boats, means I can buy a house and get married at my age. But its not IT, and I can talk about my hobbies. Which is in direct conflict with what you said. Thats the only reason I stated it.
Seriously mate, learn to type with maturity. But I was simply responding to your post which essentially said "I cant talk about my passion because it would ruin my life and I will end up a stereotype". I was simply stating my experience.
I also didnt type anything to hint I was angry/upset. It had more pity than anything. Im sure, with your poor choice of words, you offended someone out there.
Nothing wrong with getting married dude... sheesh.
I think you took my post personally (hence the angsty response). That was far from the intention. Simply putting, in my experience, you are wrong. Thats all.
Haha, take it easy cuz. I'll hit you up on Facebook later on tonight Jayden.
GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
I have only ever encountered Anti wargamer stuff twice at highschool Ware it was a Case OF "Your weird you play with toys" and stuff like that.
And the other time was when, the guy that that used to rent next door threatened to call the landlord because there was a load of empty GW boxes in the paper recycling bag and I put some Guys I had just based outside to dry in the nice weather intending to base coat them later.
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
Musk of Slaanesh, "Sixty percent of the time, it works every time!"
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
Where can I preorder it?
At your friendly local Warp Rift!
Side effects may include, but are not limited to: Asthma, Psychotic Episodes, Typhoid, Syphilis, Funny Syphilis, Whooping Cough, Insanity, Gastronomical Anomalies, Leukemia, Space AIDS, All The STD's, Choke-My-Mother Syndrome, Skin Rashes, Ow-My-Spleen, Ow-My-Sphincter, Influenza, Rape, Berserker Rage, Chaos Worship, Witchcraft, Wych Craft, Sudden Understanding of Xenology, Heresy, Think-I'm-A-Commissar Syndrome, Madness, Inability to Stop Writing, Itchy Ballsack, Trollbait, Spawndom, Incessant Use of Technology, Technophilia, Sudden Death, Resurrection Powers, Enlarged Sexual Organs, Sensory Deprivation, Addiction to Everything, Chaos Worship...
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
Where can I preorder it?
At your friendly local Warp Rift!
Side effects may include, but are not limited to: Asthma, Psychotic Episodes, Typhoid, Syphilis, Funny Syphilis, Whooping Cough, Insanity, Gastronomical Anomalies, Leukemia, Space AIDS, All The STD's, Choke-My-Mother Syndrome, Skin Rashes, Ow-My-Spleen, Ow-My-Sphincter, Influenza, Rape, Berserker Rage, Chaos Worship, Witchcraft, Wych Craft, Sudden Understanding of Xenology, Heresy, Think-I'm-A-Commissar Syndrome, Madness, Inability to Stop Writing, Itchy Ballsack, Trollbait, Spawndom, Incessant Use of Technology, Technophilia, Sudden Death, Resurrection Powers, Enlarged Sexual Organs, Sensory Deprivation, Addiction to Everything, Chaos Worship...
I like those side effects.
Now wait for the imperium to release their own brands,"Oil of geneseed" or some rubbish
leopard wrote: GW should try a licensed range of deodorants, just get something of a suitable strength stick the logo and a marine on it, a suitably daft name and sell them in store and on the website...
"Musk of Slaneesh, when you need to smell of depravity"
"Stench of Nurgle, to rot your opponents face off"
"Khornes Rage, to bring the Blood God out of you"
"Tzeencthes scent, tp change the way you smell"
Where can I preorder it?
At your friendly local Warp Rift!
Side effects may include, but are not limited to: Asthma, Psychotic Episodes, Typhoid, Syphilis, Funny Syphilis, Whooping Cough, Insanity, Gastronomical Anomalies, Leukemia, Space AIDS, All The STD's, Choke-My-Mother Syndrome, Skin Rashes, Ow-My-Spleen, Ow-My-Sphincter, Influenza, Rape, Berserker Rage, Chaos Worship, Witchcraft, Wych Craft, Sudden Understanding of Xenology, Heresy, Think-I'm-A-Commissar Syndrome, Madness, Inability to Stop Writing, Itchy Ballsack, Trollbait, Spawndom, Incessant Use of Technology, Technophilia, Sudden Death, Resurrection Powers, Enlarged Sexual Organs, Sensory Deprivation, Addiction to Everything, Chaos Worship...
I like those side effects.
Now wait for the imperium to release their own brands,"Oil of geneseed" or some rubbish
Yeah, unfortunately the main reason I can't stand to play in stores is the smell of the players. It's repugnant.
I hadn't played anything in a gaming store since my CCG days back around 2002ish, and I immediately recognized the smell. However, I definitely didn't remember it being that strong. I put up with it for one night and then just decided it wasn't worth it if that was how I was gonna have to play 40k.
What! A female is repulsed by wargaming? Stop the press!!!
But in all seriousness, I find it repulsive myself. I think it is because it can be so pedantic. If you listen to gamers argue with each other, it really sounds like they're about 5 years old:
"My guy kills your guy" "No! my guy is alive because he has infinity armour" "Well my guy has infinity +1 laser cannon" "No he doesn't! that got FAQed and he doesn't" "We're never going to have sex are we?"
I think another common interaction people have with wargamers is when they (or their kids) touch your models. I'm sure if they understood that what they were holding cost a week's wages and 200 hours work, they would understand why it bothers you so much, but they don't. To them you're just an arsey guy getting in a mope about his toys.
I remember one time my friend's GF offered to carry a bag, which had all my Zombicide stuff in it (including all the limited editions). And then she just left it a shop. I think the worst part of that was trying to pretend that it wasn't a big deal as we walked slowly back to the shop. Waiting for the traffic lights to change seemed to take an eternity. It gave me a lot to think about... I didn't want to be mad at her, but I think I ended up just being mad at myself for owning something so stupidly expensive and irreplaceable that it made me feel that way. Is it really so much better playing with £50, limited-edition bits of plastic? Rather than what comes in the box? (to be honest once they are on the board you can't really see them).
The problem, if people do lose/damage your stuff is that they don't realize it's a big deal, and then when you explain to them what a big deal it is in terms of money, their next reaction is "Who would be stupid enough to spend that much on toys?".
I guess no one wants to be around someone who is fussy and anal about their stuff, but with miniatures it's really hard not to be.
LOL, that reminds me.... I have a friend who plays 40k and hangs out with Hooters girls (it's odd, it's like he's magical or something, it seems to help that he's really short and therefore not threatening). They would come over to use the pool while we were playing 40k and would just pick up models on the table and look at them. He would start yelling at them for touching his stuff in a somewhat tongue-and-cheek-but-seriously-put-it-down manner.
There's something truly hilarious about a 4'10" wargaming nerd yelling at a 6' drop-dead-gorgeous babe in a bikini to stop touching his plastic toy soldiers.
This is very true. Our FLGS has a bunch of people who are quite athletic. Several regulars at the store play on a club rugby team.
Please tell me where you live, so that I may make pilgrimage to this holy site!!! (I'm probably the only hooker on this site, or at least the only one to admit to such ) I know rugby is big in my area (well, as bit as rugby in the US can really be, we did just have the US National Club 7s Championships up here), but I've yet to see a gaming store that houses multiple athletic types.
Giga Bites Café in Atlanta Georgia.
Heck, even one of my regular Pathfinder players is getting freaking ripped. About a year ago, he got crazy into weight lifting, and now he's 6'5", under 200 lbs, and cut.
Biggest mistake with the wife:
She came down to the man-cave to talk to me.
I was doing some fine detail work painting so decided to use the jeweler visor.
To her, it looked like this:
She then said something around the line of the impact it had on her libido.
Thereafter they were called "The sex goggles." if she sees them again, it is not happening.
Talizvar wrote: Biggest mistake with the wife:
She came down to the man-cave to talk to me.
I was doing some fine detail work painting so decided to use the jeweler visor.
To her, it looked like this:
She then said something around the line of the impact it had on her libido.
Thereafter they were called "The sex goggles." if she sees them again, it is not happening.
Aside from that, the hobby is fine with her.
This was a great story and totally something I could see happen to me and my significant other. Thank you for sharing!
This is very true. Our FLGS has a bunch of people who are quite athletic. Several regulars at the store play on a club rugby team.
Please tell me where you live, so that I may make pilgrimage to this holy site!!! (I'm probably the only hooker on this site, or at least the only one to admit to such ) I know rugby is big in my area (well, as bit as rugby in the US can really be, we did just have the US National Club 7s Championships up here), but I've yet to see a gaming store that houses multiple athletic types.
Giga Bites Café in Atlanta Georgia.
Heck, even one of my regular Pathfinder players is getting freaking ripped. About a year ago, he got crazy into weight lifting, and now he's 6'5", under 200 lbs, and cut.
Aww that sucks... there's no fething way I'll ever visit Atlanta (having lived near Nashville, that was a bit too much South for this guy :(
Talizvar wrote:Biggest mistake with the wife:
She came down to the man-cave to talk to me.
I was doing some fine detail work painting so decided to use the jeweler visor.
To her, it looked like this:
She then said something around the line of the impact it had on her libido.
Thereafter they were called "The sex goggles." if she sees them again, it is not happening.
Aside from that, the hobby is fine with her.
For your anniversary, as a joke, you should totally get some of them elephant trunk, male g-strings and wear that with the "sex goggles"
But then, maybe my type of sarcasm/joking with the wife doesn't work for everyone
Back on topic, I think most peoples opinions on wargaming comes from ignorance, they see painted models and terrain and people rolling dice saying stuff like "I hit on 6's" and they only see that, they dont see the unpainted and unassembled models, they dont see all the different rules, all the modifiers and all the stats, they just see grown men playing with action men making random dice rolls.
Like some of my friends dont get warhammer, but I showed one of my friends one of my painted models and a pic of how it originally came and she was really impressed, she realized there is more to this hobby then you see when walking past a GW for example.
I would like to start by saying I am no socio annalist or some other fancy titled doctor, I jsut consider myself somewhat intelligent with the seemingly rare ability to have an open mind and think for my damn self
Think for ones self. I think if I could only ever give one bit of advice to anyone ever it would be that. Investigate something for yourself before you make some pre conceived assumption or join everyone else with their opinion.
Something I have noticed though, through my years growing up at an all boys school, dropping college and going straight to work with adults. Actual "MEN" and "WOMEN" compared to what is available to you at 16 years of age. Intelligent adults couldnt give a feth what you do. An intelligent human will always be intrigued by the unknown. Currently I'm stuck in a very menial office job and let me tell you there are some very VERY average people who are the epitome of "get up, goto work, go home, watch tv, sleep. Go out drinking at weekends"
The few people who aren't like that are genuinely interesting people who are a pleasure to talk to. One of the guys genuinley plays d&d and loves comics and I can honestly say that I enjoy talking to him on a monday morning. When I ask him how his weekend went, its not just a formality, I genuinely want to know. As opposed to the bimbos from customer contact who are always getting really drunk and doing stupid things. Theyre nice enough, sure, but they will look down on you if you do anything other than go out drinking at the weekend because that is the social "norm"
I have 3 hobbies. 2 of which are extremely expensive, 1 which is free.
Most expensive is obviously 40k. With its myriad of models and lore I just cant spend enough on it.
Next is engine building. I fething love engines (i dont love cars...although im fond of them) I realy like engines and have built many a turbocharged monster. Last night i finished welding up a manifold for the waste of money thats sitting on my drive.
Third Hobby is DOTA...awww man I love dota (for those who dont know, its a video game. Much like league of legends but better in every way and not baby safe like LOL *OHHHHH SNAP*)
The reaction most people at work have is normally something like
"Hey, johnson and your sexy ass juice crew, what do you do in your spare time"
Well, You know what warhammer is right? Little models with guns? I play it competitively (i dont but saying this seems to put people at ese somehow. If they think you actualy sit there and just paint little tiny dudes...the recoil, as if you were a child of nurgle himself!) the reply is normally something akin to "ohhh, I think my [insert distant acquaintance here] plays that"
or
"ME? I like cars....dont worry i wont bore you with details" with the reply almost exclusivley "oh you soup them up and stuff...why?"
or
"Me? I like video games" with the reply "oh xbox? yeh my husband has one of those I hate it" (the world has changed and a lot of males now play video games so its quite normal but women still mostly find it alienating)
All 3 will be feigned interest at most with no care of further explenation. Its the sign of true maturity and intelligence (in my opinion) if they ask further questions and seem interested. Since I left school at 16, 10 years ago I have noticed that true adults, beleive me there are some 40 year old childeren out there, are open minded, curious and will treat you as an equal regardless if you are of higher stature or lower. I have a manager who will speak to me like a human being and another one who cant go 5 minutes in a meeting without speaking to everyone like they are children. Which one do I have more respect for? Thats right, the one who is normal and should be allowed to breed.
On the subject of people outright hating wargaming. I try to look at it from their perspective. Personally, I hate soccer, its 90 minutes of pure boredom for me. I would rather drink ocean water next to a sewage outflow pipe than sit through 90 minutes of it. However there is cults dedicated to this. People will go out of their way to see a match with like minded individuals. I can only assume that these soccer fans see wargaming like I see soccer. With complete bemusement at the notion of spending time doing something that seems so boring.
HOWEVER! What both have in common (even between teenage groups and adult groups of each vice) its a social event for each group. Talking to friends, drinking booze! I will never understand why people waste time watching football but I can appreciate the comradery that can bring complete strangers together through a common hobby.
I have no idea what girls do in their spare time. If my girlfriend is anything to go by. They come home from work, watch gak, demand you spend time with them doing absolutley feth all then goto bed after demanding you go on a holiday cos they are bored. I almost hate spending time with the missus cos it takes me away from my hobbies and she has none!
I think there was a point to all this but I have been typing between games of dota and slowly inebriating my self with some local made cider0
I play historicals... got me a job once. I wasn't the most competent candidate, but knowing the lore saved me.
The job wasn't too bad. Geeking Working on beautiful beaches littoral sites of archeological interest around the Adriatic Sea. Remember Porco Rosso? Dalmatia just looks like that. I was the pig only male around, surrounded by hot babes fellow students.
They really, really liked me, and made me feel... special. Maybe because I was the only male. Maybe because these geeky skills sometimes looked like magic. Maybe because I could do delicate tasks with these hands. Maybe because I actually knew a few things and seemed to care about what they intended to do for a living.
They asked me how I knew these things I wasn't really supposed to know. Just told them I played reenactments and "what if" scenarios of historical battles, with minis you have to paint yourself. And since you're trying to field armies that look like historical armies, you have to do some research. About how the military worked, about the uniforms... how these people lived, who were their foes. How these foes fought, how they lived, how their societies were organized... It's just like 40k lore, but with real people that actually lived and made great deeds.
They found the idea awesome.
And one of these former collegues is my fiancee now.
I've been wargaming for over a decade, started around 14 and will be 28 next march. When I first started my dad of all people was the one to support me, Old Ir0njack senior is a workaholic, and ladies man the likes of which I have never met since. Now normal old pop my be worried that his boy is caring about plastic toys more than girls or sports, well if he did he was really good at hiding it. He drove me to every game, got me stuff I wanted for *insert present giving occasion* without me asking. All while dealing with a messy divorce and on a strict budget.
Mom was semi supportive but busy trying to rip pops a new one in the courts. I Always brought my hobby to school with me, during lunch or artclass I would bust it out work on them. Now had I been someone else that might have made me a prime target, but being over 6ft and a reputation of explosive bouts of khornate level rage ( I didnt handle the divorce well) made people leave me to my own devices. As time went on folks became curious and started to ask about what I was doing. At first I was suspicious but eventually open ed up and soon the table I claimed was at full capacity with us chatting about the lore or mechanics of the the game itself, we even played a few games after convincing the teacher a we weren't gambling with the dice. Sure we got some dirty looks and occasional snarks but as a group (After a few confrontations) we left alone and had a great time. That is infact my only really enjoyable memory from my highschool years.
Cue the past five years. I hit a rough patch after school, worked abit, lost the job, wound up homeless, joined the military, travelled LITERALLY half way across the world, met a awesome girl, got married and STILL play 40k. folks ask me what I do in my spare time and to this day I answer "Warhammer 40,000". When they ask what it is I whip out my phone and show them a shot of one of my bitz boxes and a say "I take this." Then change to a picture of a finished guard squad "And turn it into this". Most are semi impressed and leave it at that, if they question further I just tell it how it is. 40k has seen me through the best and worst parts of my life I will never be ashamed of being a wargamer.
The best part of it all? Now the wife plays too! The worst part? She say I have enough IG at the moment and we need to work on her Dark Eldar before I can have more
I've been playing since I was 12 - got hooked with Space Crusade. Now 36 and still going strong.
I gave it up for a few years when I was involved with a fairly conservative evangelical Christian group; mainly because it took up so much time I "should" have been spending on Godly stuff. Then I relaxed, came to my senses, and got back into it. Still a Christian, just also a wargamer.
I think the hate/rage is common to anyone who has an unusual hobby/personality/music taste etc. We don't fit in a typical social box so people are suspicious. It could be a lot worse. And yes, it is a little bit odd to come into a room full of people painting toy solders, rolling dice and saying things like "your wizard needs to take a ward save or he'll be sucked into the warp". It's also objectively odd to spend 90 minutes watching people kick a small leather ball around a field, or to sit in a dark room playing games against a machine. But, we don't make the rules. (Which is a shame, as we'd probably be good at it.)
When asked by other people about hobbies, I usually say I play board games at first. It's true (wargaming is a small part of my hobby life) and the vast majority of people can spin a conversation off the back of it. If they ask more questions, I'll talk about tabletop gaming, whilst watching very very closely for the moment when their inner monologue switches from "oh, how interesting, a person with an unusual hobby" to "stop talking now, stop talking now."
Mrs Ludo thinks it's all rather amusing but, more importantly, that I enjoy it. I have a tendency to work hard, so she likes it when the models come out as it means I'm taking time out.
Finally, a quote from Peep Show's Mark Corrigan, after his flatmate laughs at his FDR action figure:
"Look, I'm sorry if in an infantilised world I've somehow ended up with the non-cool toys, but why exactly is arranging a model of the greatest liberal hero of the 20th century somehow less cool than pretending on a computer that you're a Russian pimp stealing imaginary cars?"
On topic, I think stereotypical nerds are actualy worse or at least the same as the old lady mentioned. I mean look at the idiots threatening critics who bashed Dark Knight Rises with death where majority didn't even see it. Or some chick that did a lukewarm review of Guardians of the Galaxy, go look up the comments like for example that she needs to get laid (!) oh irony. You liked comic books you were harrassed, now you don't like comic books you get harrassed - same crap different sides. I have loads of friends gamers and non gamers and I find for example footbal fans nicer than geeks, sure you can get punched but without the vicious edge of self important and mostly imagined intellectual superiority that you get from even the well adjusted fellow nerds.
As for me, I was doing all kinds of nerd stuff in my life but also all kinds of typical stuff and mixed it all the time, I was not aware that they were nerdy tbh just awesome. 40k I started around 30 and was open about it as usual but now tend to think it was a mistake as its never a good idea to give people an easy tool to ridicule you behind your back. People in general are rather crap tbh.
Then if someone tries to bash me for it, I'll bash his activities as its easy to reduce anything into absurd. So, you like cars because you drive them on the road, man all that turning so great. Climber, so you think its both art and philosophy to climb the pile of rocks, and the views, yeah, but don't the mountains block them? Music how exquisite I bet you also love to sing whatever crap the random musician wrote just because other people around sing it too.
As for girls I think its a good idea to tell the girl that all you do is play man dolls after the first intercourse, its not like they tell you all their crap right away or even within the first year. Then if in all her woman delicacy, subtlety and goodnes she decides to inform you that youre a loser or sth like that, hey youve just slept with one which makes you a losers bitch heh. I think nerd activities costed me a lot of fun with girls but thats rather because of how time consuming they are (thank you Total War series) than my social image, I always had lots of opportunities including girls proposing to pay for sex with me heh. I also was the kind of idiot who waits for the one girl so instead of having fun I was tormenting myself with living hell that are serious relationships and everlasting love. But then in the end I have a great wife and kids and dont have std or allimonies (is that a right word?) so maybe thank you nerd things and white knight mind indeed.
Plumbumbarum wrote: On topic, I think stereotypical nerds are actualy worse or at least the same as the old lady mentioned. [There is a] vicious edge of self important and mostly imagined intellectual superiority that you get from even the well adjusted fellow nerds.
Plumbumbarum wrote: [I]f someone tries to bash me for it, I'll bash his activities as its easy to reduce anything into absurd. So, you like cars because you drive them on the road, man all that turning so great. Climber, so you think its both art and philosophy to climb the pile of rocks, and the views, yeah, but don't the mountains block them? Music how exquisite I bet you also love to sing whatever crap the random musician wrote just because other people around sing it too.
^This. This is the perfect example of the stereotype. Even when someone is acutely aware of their own stigmas, they instantly fall back into them when it is pointed out by an outside source.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: See my girlfriend's a welder, so jeweling goggles are something she's cool with.
As long as she gets to put her welding mask on.
Thanks for that!
Funny, a song I know springs to mind: see link:
Warning!!! lyrics have swear words... (you have been warned).
Spoiler:
I just love people with mad skills, even better when they are "non-traditional" pursuits. <edit> Gah! On-topic, people usually have one of two reactions to something they never saw before: think it is "weird" of think it is cool, not much reaction in-between.
It really appears to be situational and how say wargaming ties into the observer's life experience on how they react.
The story of archeologists reacting to historical wargaming is a good example and probably would look like a good way of engaging the public in history.
My wife is definitely OK with it (on our second date we went to a pizza place in Oxford that overlooked GW Oxford. She saw the sign and said "Hey there's a Games Workshop, I used to love going in there when I was younger!". I was a lapsed hobbyist at that point though but mentioned that I had used to play WH when I was younger. She bought me a Warsphinx for my birthday a few months later and that got me back into the hobby).
My friends and I, when we were still at school (this was about 20 years ago), did a presentation on Warhammer in assembly. Not long afterwards we had a bit of a punch up with some other lads in the year who were taking the piss out of us for it, and once I did hear Warhammer called "the saddest thing you can possibly do" by a young lady at a bus stop, but those are really the only negative comments or reactions I've heard- not including the slightly incredulous "look at these weirdos" tone of the BBC article on wargaming a while ago.
Generally if I do have to explain it I get blank looks. I don't think the majority of people really care much!
Plumbumbarum wrote: On topic, I think stereotypical nerds are actualy worse or at least the same as the old lady mentioned. [There is a] vicious edge of self important and mostly imagined intellectual superiority that you get from even the well adjusted fellow nerds.
Plumbumbarum wrote: [I]f someone tries to bash me for it, I'll bash his activities as its easy to reduce anything into absurd. So, you like cars because you drive them on the road, man all that turning so great. Climber, so you think its both art and philosophy to climb the pile of rocks, and the views, yeah, but don't the mountains block them? Music how exquisite I bet you also love to sing whatever crap the random musician wrote just because other people around sing it too.
^This. This is the perfect example of the stereotype. Even when someone is acutely aware of their own stigmas, they instantly fall back into them when it is pointed out by an outside source.
I was aware that my post might be interpreted like that but Im not sure whether thats exactly it or rather what I think is a proper reaction. See in my example people were reacting to constructive critique with death threats and heavy insults in a way comparable to how stereotypical jock negates a whole person for their favourite activity or sth. I would be fine with constructive critique of TT wargaming and 40k but if it gets to mandolls and ridicule, I think that a bit of distance to yourself and joyful self ridicule is good but agression is even better. Why would you leave that supposed person feeling better about him/herself just because they are doing more socialy accepted things when you can make them think about how most hobbies have in fact as much value as you put in them and that its all relative.
Wargaming has both solitary and social elements so has some measure of balance.
It is judging what a person "needs" to recharge their batteries that seems inappropriate.
There is a stigma attached to playing with "toys" as an inability to grow-up. Most "action figures" are not far removed in look from the conflicts we simulate.
Until others are shown the work / art put into creation of the "toys" and the rules in playing with them is some measure of understanding (possible respect?) can be had.
Sizing up an army list's possibility of success vs. another is not much different from figuring out one football team vs. another, it is convincing the other person of the relevance.
The nerd-superiority-sneer is an easy thing to pull out when others dismiss your interests with barely a thought = disrespect tends to get paid back with interest.
Plumbumbarum wrote: On topic, I think stereotypical nerds are actualy worse or at least the same as the old lady mentioned. [There is a] vicious edge of self important and mostly imagined intellectual superiority that you get from even the well adjusted fellow nerds.
Plumbumbarum wrote: [I]f someone tries to bash me for it, I'll bash his activities as its easy to reduce anything into absurd. So, you like cars because you drive them on the road, man all that turning so great. Climber, so you think its both art and philosophy to climb the pile of rocks, and the views, yeah, but don't the mountains block them? Music how exquisite I bet you also love to sing whatever crap the random musician wrote just because other people around sing it too.
^This. This is the perfect example of the stereotype. Even when someone is acutely aware of their own stigmas, they instantly fall back into them when it is pointed out by an outside source.
And you're contending that that stereotype is unique to nerd culture?
I mean, I understand that you're pointing out a bit of potential hypocrisy, but isn't it better to be introspective and aware of one's own faults? You seem to think that the old lady the OP is describing is somehow correct in her assessment and should not change her perspective on things.
"dakka dakka" 
