Regarding Codex Chaos Space Marines
-No Cult Marines in the Codex
-Few Rule changes
-Dataslates for Cult Marines, Terminators, Chosen ect. in White Dwarf
-One Chaos God per Issue (each with their own dataslates for Berzerker Termis, Plague Termis ect.)
Judging by my user name it's obvious I'm a Nurgle lover. This is definitely a bummer. Though, it sort of goes hand in hand with what others had speculated/rumored for a while now. One book for renegades and another for Legions, only instead of one book we'll get individual Dataslates for each god. As much as I hate having to purchase a bunch of DLC that should have been in the codex proper, perhaps it's not all bad. I guess it'll save money for people who only run renegades and not cult legions. It'll also save some cash (hopefully) for those who only enjoy one specific god. People won't have to pay $50 for codex chaos renegades, then another $50 for a legion book when a $10 dataslate for Khorne would give them all they need.
I think you miss read that… I believe the rumor was no Cult Marines without digitally licensed products, or WD issues. This is nothing different than what they've been doing with codices for a while now. The basic stuff is in the book, and the extra add-ons are, well, extra add-ons... Why charge for something once when you can charge for multiple times?
cygnnus wrote: I think you miss read that… I believe the rumor was no Cult Marines without digitally licensed products, or WD issues. This is nothing different than what they've been doing with codices for a while now. The basic stuff is in the book, and the extra add-ons are, well, extra add-ons... Why charge for something once when you can charge for multiple times?
To which I say:
Cult Marines aren't an extra fething add-on.
First they took our Legions, then they took our Daemons, and now they're taking our Cult Marines, so my point about them all going to hell stands. I am tired, so very tired, of seeing one of my fav armies get picked apart with each new edition. Why even have fething Chaos Marines at all if they're just going to strip away at them until they really are just Evil Ultramarines.
OverwatchCNC wrote: I can't see them cutting any and all cult troops from the primary codex.
Why not? Aside from the ancient Berzerker kit none of them are in plastic. Why make something in plastic when you can just cut it?
master sheol wrote: Considering that WD issues will be destroyed after few weeks if a guy starts CSM after these WD issues will play CSM without cult marines???
You can buy any issue of White Dwarf Weekly digitally right now if you want to.
I hate to say it, but the first thing I do when I hear rumours I don't like is check Pretre's rumour tracker.
While Steve the Warboss has only slightly better than a 50/50 record, if one looks at his rumours, many of them, while correct to list them as false, could be seen, through the benefit of hindsight, as at least being in the ballpark (Khemri colossus predicted, we got a Nagash, slips of odd months or release orders etc, etc)
I hate to say it, but this might have legs, if not exactly as it is written here.
They'll probably have a lead up to the release of the codex just like what they did with Orks. They'll put the dataslates in WD, one god, each week as a "hey, check it out" and then we'll get the codex and it's all in there.
I don't believe that there will be cult terminators for everyone one, unless FW or GW makes kits for them. Only FW "Nurgle" and "Khorne" terminators exist.
I do kindof believe they'll pull the cult units from the codex and make them into dataslates.
If i can take more sonic weapons on anything other than Noise Marines, go go Noisy Biker Marines.
I do know that we won't be able to make them troops if/when the new codex comes, that's 100% sure based off of all the new codii that have come and there is no FoC changing rules within the codex.
There were no Cult Marines in the 3.5 Codex and it was the only good Chaos codex released since 2nd ed.
Yeah, they will probably just screw everything up, but no Cults could actually mean going back to proper Marks for everyone again and not this gakky "one Cult unit, and everything else gets the Mark Lite" gak.
In that case i have a perfectly good, hardback, well illustrated codex. No need to buy the new one if it´s just a downgrade, and where i play, noone will mind me using the "old" one.
There were no Cult Marines in the 3.5 Codex and it was the only good Chaos codex released since 2nd ed.
Yeah, they will probably just screw everything up, but no Cults could actually mean going back to proper Marks for everyone again and not this gakky "one Cult unit, and everything else gets the Mark Lite" gak.
Marks made them into Cult units in 3.5 IIRC, at work so i dont ahve my book with me. But they were certainly in 3.5 in one way or another.
lord_blackfang wrote: There were no Cult Marines in the 3.5 Codex and it was the only good Chaos codex released since 2nd ed.
Don't be so blatantly dishonest. The Mark system created Cult Marines. CSM + MoK = Berzerkers. CSM + MoT = Thousand Sons Marines. The book had Cult Marines, and did so in the most efficient way possible (a Mark that turned a unit into a Cult Marine unit rather than separate entries for Cult X, Cult X Terminators, Cult X Havocs, etc.).
lord_blackfang wrote: There were no Cult Marines in the 3.5 Codex and it was the only good Chaos codex released since 2nd ed.
Don't be so blatantly dishonest. The Mark system created Cult Marines. CSM + MoK = Berzerkers. CSM + MoT = Thousand Sons Marines. The book had Cult Marines, and did so in the most efficient way possible (a Mark that turned a unit into a Cult Marine unit rather than separate entries for Cult X, Cult X Terminators, Cult X Havocs, etc.).
But that's what I'm trying to say. It was Mark = Cult. Now there is only one Cult unit per god and gakky watered down Marks for everything else. Cutting out Cults units, to me, means cutting out the 4 specific PA units whose very existance implies that the other Marked units aren't proper Cult units. So the removal of what is now considered "Cults" could take us back to the old system where everything Marked was considered Cult.
And, what, you'll think they'll let you add 'em back in with Marks?
This is 40K Chaos. They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book. And to add insult to injury the one time they released a Legion-based supplement, it was for the most vanilla Chaos Legion of all!
The only thing they're going to add is pointless DLC.
No? The chaos codex is 6th edition and the game is in 7th edition?
And it needs a bit of a boost... But already sounds like it's not going to be any better. Even if its balanced it's going to be stupidly bland, if these rumours are true.
Its the problem the computer game industry has been having with day1 dlc: people don't want to pay full price for half a product and then pay extra to get what should have been included in the first place.
Hate to say it but I can see this happening under the rule of the new CEO who is going to go so much further with the splitting of content to the point where it will cost $200+ for what used to be a codex.
My theory is they will make dexes with basic choices and then fill the rest in with white dwarf, DLC and supplement must haves. Look at angels. Shield of Baal, exterminatus, white dwarf + codex is $315. Sure there is some models but that's before you even make a normal sized army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sorry, if I appear to be really angry about this, but it's because nothing incenses me more than GW's continued bungling of Chaos over the past decade.
Sounds about as good as Astra Militarum so yeah they'll probably be that.
H.B.M.C no need to apologise, if this is true I'm angry and I don't even play Chaos (not in 40k anyway, only in 30k). With this and the whole fantasy nonsense GW really are on top form.
I like the one with the massive multi-barrelled cannons, but they're still kinda silly. The Komodo dragon head does nothing for me. I prefer my Daemon Engines to be a little more engine and a little less Daemon, like a living mechanical thing rather than a mechanical living thing, if you catch my meaning.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sorry if I appear to be really angry about this, but it's because nothing incenses me more than GW's continued bungling of Chaos over the past decade.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I prefer my Daemon Engines to be a little more engine and a little less Daemon, like a living mechanical thing rather than a mechanical living thing, if you catch my meaning.
Nicely put. Something like the Decimator, for example?
Ok, enough OT. This doesn't surprise me, why include Cult troops when you can get people to buy a dataslate for $35 (or whatever they're going for these days) for 5 pages of God-specific Cult rules. I would be surprised if there aren't any marks at all in the Chaos Dex. Not Khorne Berzerkers, but a mark of Khorne for the Khorne worshiping CSM that aren't World Eaters.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I prefer my Daemon Engines to be a little more engine and a little less Daemon, like a living mechanical thing rather than a mechanical living thing, if you catch my meaning.
Nicely put. Something like the Decimator, for example?
Exactly. Decimator. Defiler. Brass Scorp. Plague Drone. Things that look like machines given life via Daemonic possession rather than living creatures made all metallic and stuff (like the Dinobot does).
This is the death of print and we are hopping on the bandwagon without so much as a batted eye!
Having to buy a data slate to run models you already own is heresy. Being a new player and having to buy not only the army, the books and all the other stuff no one tells you you need, is bad enough. Now we are also required to have digital device in order to play.
You fools! This is the end of all your books, the end of 40k and WFB, this is the end of accountability itself! How on earth are we to hold publishers accountable for quality of product if the product is nothing more than a few kilobytes of info, packed onto an imaginary file, stored in some ethereal realm of nothingness?!
Yeah that's great, go buy your Cult Legion data slates, moon over your dubiously secured files, arrange your models on your shelf, and next year, when GW comes out and says they will no longer print hard copy books except for all but the most distinguishing ( read: rich) of collectors, then I will laugh maniacally in your faces. You will wonder how I found out where you live, you will wonder how I got into your garage and you will wonder how I knew which model was your favourite so I could smash it with your favourite cats favourite cat toy. You will ask yourselves these questions and you will have no answers. None.
I will ride down from the heavens with righteous fury, wielding all the power of my ancestors, smiting to and fro, you will quail in terror, but I shall have no mercy. You will have destroyed, with your dimly glowing iPads, my one true obsession. And for that I shall burn you.
... I'm sorry guys. Don't know what came over me. I guess I just feel really strongly about data slates and the future of the hobby.
This kind of crap is why I stopped playing chaos. I had about 8k in iron warriors and about 5k in night lords. I got rid of it all because the chaos codexs kept letting me down.
yellowfever wrote: This kind of crap is why I stopped playing chaos. I had about 8k in iron warriors and about 5k in night lords. I got rid of it all because the chaos codexs kept letting me down.
You should come to 30k, if you can stomach the prices
if this is really true then I hope they atleast give us vehicle dedication to chaos gods and other units that benefit more than just the mark buff from being dedicated to a certain god... I would be okay with buying 2 white dwarfs (tzeentch and nurgle for me, 4 would be rediculous if you like all gods) and a codex if there is a lot in those white dwarfs.
Regarding Codex Chaos Space Marines
-No Cult Marines in the Codex
-Few Rule changes
-Dataslates for Cult Marines, Terminators, Chosen ect. in White Dwarf
-One Chaos God per Issue (each with their own dataslates for Berzerker Termis, Plague Termis ect.)
Az och en vey!
But considering that that the chaos codex isn't that old and does not require much fixing, I find this very hard to believe. Why would they release a new chaos dex? What would be the cool new stuff? Why is this stamped as a rumor from August 2014? Even GW's dickishnes aside, a CSM dex stripped of all cult troops makes for a really sad sight. Admittedly not knowing the sources reputation I call total BS on this one.
Shared with an equally undeserving army, the Blood Angels, and when the Chaos Codex did come out it was bigger and better your half-dex! And very yellow!
Ozymandias wrote: Ok, enough OT. This doesn't surprise me, why include Cult troops when you can get people to buy a dataslate for $35 (or whatever they're going for these days) for 5 pages of God-specific Cult rules. I would be surprised if there aren't any marks at all in the Chaos Dex. Not Khorne Berzerkers, but a mark of Khorne for the Khorne worshiping CSM that aren't World Eaters.
That part that bothers me so much, aside from all the usual nonsense GW pulls with Chaos, is that the fine folks at Forge World have given them the absolute perfect template for how to do Legions/Cults. Putting aside whatever balance issues the lists may have, the Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes/Legion specific army lists are fantastic.
Base List Special Rules Base List
Legion #1 Modifier to Base List Special Rule Legion #1 Additional Special Rule Legion #1 Unique Units
Legion #2 Modifier to Base List Special Rule Legion #2 Additional Special Rule Legion #2 Unique Units
And so on. It is so elegant and so intuitive that it just shocks me that GW proper haven't adopted it.
The Chaos codex definitely does need some fixing. It's not that old but when Necrons get done it'll be the oldest one, and along with DA they do need a bit of fixing. They're both a bit behind the curve now, probably because they were the first in a new edition.
However I don't trust GW at all to do it right, especially lately.
Shared with an equally undeserving army, the Blood Angels, and when the Chaos Codex did come out it was bigger and better your half-dex! And very yellow!
Ozymandias wrote: Ok, enough OT. This doesn't surprise me, why include Cult troops when you can get people to buy a dataslate for $35 (or whatever they're going for these days) for 5 pages of God-specific Cult rules. I would be surprised if there aren't any marks at all in the Chaos Dex. Not Khorne Berzerkers, but a mark of Khorne for the Khorne worshiping CSM that aren't World Eaters.
That part that bothers me so much, aside from all the usual nonsense GW pulls with Chaos, is that the fine folks at Forge World have given them the absolute perfect template for how to do Legions/Cults. Putting aside whatever balance issues the lists may have, the Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes/Legion specific army lists are fantastic.
Base List Special Rules
Base List
Legion #1 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #1 Additional Special Rule
Legion #1 Unique Units
Legion #2 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #2 Additional Special Rule
Legion #2 Unique Units
And so on. It is so elegant and so intuitive that it just shocks me that GW proper haven't adopted it.
Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.
Well, I don't like the current state of CSM much. The codex feels pretty bland.
You can not make simple traitors as near-everything is somehow demonified.
You can not make propper cult armies as you have basically only one fluffy unit and have to fill up the rest with whatever springs to mind.
Black Legion supplement just adds more of the same blandnes.
The only two things that somehow seem in line with the design of the written stuff would be a demonic machines heavy list for iron warriors and the Crimson slaughter sup that does capture this crazed flair of the chapter pretty well. Other than that though...
However, if they gut the codex even further, there's not much point to get one in the first place. Scavenge the rules entries to whatever units you want to use and tape it together.
I like the one with the massive multi-barrelled cannons, but they're still kinda silly. The Komodo dragon head does nothing for me. I prefer my Daemon Engines to be a little more engine and a little less Daemon, like a living mechanical thing rather than a mechanical living thing, if you catch my meaning.
Perhaps I should expand.
I like the dinobots. I'm slightly more ambivalent about their place in the CSM model range.
Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.
Just come to 30k!
I haven't played 40k in over a year. Collecting/converting a 30k army might be the only way I'd come back at this point.
Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.
Just come to 30k!
I haven't played 40k in over a year. Collecting/converting a 30k army might be the only way I'd come back at this point.
I love 30k. FW have handled it so well in my opinion. The books are amazing, the models are amazing. Yes you're paying more but I think the quality is worth it, and far surpasses anything in 40k.
I get some people are like 'ugh more space marines' but that's just a given, given the setting, and the legions actually feel varied and different even though they use the same list, and there's Mechanicum (ha we got it before 40k ) Solar Auxilia and Knights lists too, there's a lot more variety than there looks on the surface.
And they've handled the Chaos legions much better than 40k, and they aren't even really chaos yet!
No? The chaos codex is 6th edition and the game is in 7th edition?
Chaos Marines were the first book of 6th, and thus the oldest hardback. Once Crons get updated, barring Sisters and any lesser codices, there are no more softback books to update.
Hmmm. Force people to buy generic Chaos Space Marine models instead of their already painted Cult troops that they have been using for years?
Now I can actually believe it. Expect a new Chaos tacticals box with spikier spikes, and plastic cultists as a release.
Cult troops will be released with new plastic models a few months later with appropriate Supplements/WD to field them. One supplement/WD each week for the 4 Gods for a month long Second Wave CSM release.
NEXT UP. Disecting Dark Angels to be 3 mini-dexes for their Wings.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, what, you'll think they'll let you add 'em back in with Marks?
This is 40K Chaos. They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book. And to add insult to injury the one time they released a Legion-based supplement, it was for the most vanilla Chaos Legion of all!
The only thing they're going to add is pointless DLC.
That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!). There was a reason that it was replaced by another codex within IIRC 2-3 years and it was because it was grossly unbalanced and about as fun to play against as sticking fingers in a light socket. That book and the ccombos it allowed single handedly destroyed my local scene when two chaos players decided to place no limits on themselves when using it. I know you play chaos but lets call a spade a spade and not put that broken mess of easily abusable rules on such a revered pedestal.
That of course doesn't mean that I support turning cult troops into paid DLC for the codex. If anything, the chaos codex should be a super sized one like the vanilla marines with both legion rules and cult troops but that won't ever happen again. Still, paid DLC cult troops (if done correctly and not just PA ones but rather terminators and where applicable jump troops) is still better than no cult troops at all. That is, unfortunately, the only realistic choice the modern GW will give players.
I don't think H.B.M.C. was praising it because of its OPness, more so because it was the last dex that actually accurately represent CSMs in all their glory. The last few ones have been jokes option-wise compared to that one. The current one was better, but still terrible. We want to be able to play accurate representation of the warbands made up of the remnants of the Traitor Legions, not just Black-painted Evil Ultramarines with less flavour, Red-painted Evil Ultramarines that suck or Green-painted Evil Ultramarines that are pretty good but still just Evil Marines with +1T.
If the cult troops get removed from the dex and made day 1 DLC, that's more options (and the among the only flavourful ones) removed and that's insulting. Green-painted Evil Ultramarines will definitely be the only thing taken as the only thing saving Pink-painted Evil Ultramarines were their Cult troops...
First they took our Legions, then they took our Daemons, and now they're taking our Cult Marines, so my point about them all going to hell stands. I am tired, so very tired, of seeing one of my fav armies get picked apart with each new edition. Why even have fething Chaos Marines at all if they're just going to strip away at them until they really are just Evil Ultramarines.
Oh come on! It is perfectly suited for Chaos. See, it is change. Tzeentch! It is decay. Nurgle! It makes you angry. Khorne! And also, something about Slaanesh, but I am not telling . So it is a great thing, totally fluffy, and I really hope it continues to happens, until CSM are rolled in like the Black Templars!
(It was a joke, if you are fast enough you can catch it when it comes above your head )
Hmm, I think no cult marines sounds kind of crazy,
but this may mean a legion focus, similar to chapter tactics in the marine book, which would be pretty cool
I don't believe this rumor for a second. No way in hell are we getting cult terminators.
More likely I'd expect to see a new codex with across-the-board nerfs and the complete removal of cult units. The hybrid kits get discontinued and the plastic berserkers go Direct Only. Then they release a dataslate with rules for berserkers, unique warlord traits and relics, and a detachment with extra elite slots. Also a formation consisting of 8 berserkers + Khorne lord. If a unit wins a combat and is within 6" of all the other units then the whole formation gets Fear (!) and the Lord gets a free roll on the Boon table (re-roll Dark Apothosis results).
If this latest batch of rumors are true, then it seems WHFB is contracting itself in compactly while 40k is spreading itself further and further out. I mean, how many dataslates do we have now?
Christ! This thread was enough to bring Doobie out of hiding. That's how big a deal it is.
warboss wrote: That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!).
Utterly irrelevant. Matters of balance are not the same as matters of structure and options. They relate to and inform one another, but a failure in one does not indicate or constitute a failure in the others.
You could balance a Codex like the 3.5 without sacrificing its soul. You can keep the Legions and the options for multiple play-styles without Jervisifying the whole damned thing like they did when the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex came out.
The fact that the Iron Warriors were broken and that Siren was a stupid power doesn't mean that the core concepts of that book (Cult Troops are made via the Mark system, the Legions put different restrictions on unit types and benefits for unit size, etc.) were flawed or could not be balanced.
I'm taking more salt with this than I did with the Fantasy 9th Edition rumours.
The Cult troops already HAVE models and they're pretty popular at that. Aged? Yes, but they actually exist. I just don't see it happening. The only way I could see it happening is if they rapidly put out say... "Codex: World Eaters" supplements.
That or they've finally lost all subtly when it comes to "Please, please, please, just play Loyalist Codex #135151 like the other kids! Look, more toys for them! Don't you wanna join in the fun too, Lil Jimmy boy?!"
Come 8th CSMs will be a bloody Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines.
I don't see GW taking out units in a codex that already have models, the Cult Marines are too ingrained into the lore and without them Chaos is basically Cultists and regular marines with Obliterators and the demon engines.
Having said that I do think it's possible that they want to go in a new direction and the dataslates allow them to do that without cluttering the main dex. So the main Dex is your generic Chaos with the ability to represent a warband or non god aligned Chaos renegade chapter.
Then they can allow you your dataslates and formations in the WD. So a hypothetical Formations might be Khorne Marauding Horde.
2 HQ of either a Khorne SM or Demon
Troops Berzerkers,KhorneMarked SM,BloodLetters
Elites etc etc
Special Rule- All units have Adamantium Will and reroll charge ranges.
I'm sorry guys, this is all my fault. My friends and I were just talking the other day about the blandification of 7th Edition and how GW is loving removing stuff from codices only to put them back in with dataslates and such, and I said something about how I would expect to see the new Chaos codex to lose all of the cult troops to have them sold back to us in supplements for each Chaos god. GW must have been spying on us from the next table and got the idea from me.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I would expect to see the new Chaos codex to lose all of the cult troops to have them sold back to us in supplements for each Chaos god.
This. Totally follows GW's current strategy of banal core codexes which are only competitively useful in combination with pricey supplements. Moar cash for the GW cash god!
Like all things it depends on the execution. If the main book is bland but the WD lists allow us to combine Demons and CSM into one Force Org chart with a flavorful special rule, gives us God Specific Relics and Warlord Traits, and Cult Terminators and Dreadnoughts, I for one won't complain.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Christ! This thread was enough to bring Doobie out of hiding. That's how big a deal it is.
warboss wrote: That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!).
Utterly irrelevant. Matters of balance are not the same as matters of structure and options. They relate to and inform one another, but a failure in one does not indicate or constitute a failure in the others.
I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to a long time playtester and RPG rules writing freelancer but matters of balance are intrinsically linked to matters of structure and options. It was the matter of structure in allowing a completely customizable set of daemon prince rules interacting with the undercosted/overpowered individual options that made the resulting combinations unbalanced. Throw in some unbalanced legion rules (a minority admittedly) and other unbalanced and undercosted units (like Oblits at natural t5 at their original points) and you have an unholy mess of a codex that had individual models that could run through 2 whole units a game turn without even considering what the rest of the army was doing. If a rules writer doesn't bother considering how that structure and those option interact, it completely screws balance. The same is true of RPGs where things like individual feats in D&D weren't at first glance grossly OP but rather simply powerful but when used in combo with other things in an unregulated lack of structure made them ridiculous.
You could balance a Codex like the 3.5 without sacrificing its soul. You can keep the Legions and the options for multiple play-styles without Jervisifying the whole damned thing like they did when the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex came out.
The fact that the Iron Warriors were broken and that Siren was a stupid power doesn't mean that the core concepts of that book (Cult Troops are made via the Mark system, the Legions put different restrictions on unit types and benefits for unit size, etc.) were flawed or could not be balanced.
It was not - NOT - a "POS", as you would call it.
I don't disagree with any of the above except for the last sentance. The complete lack of balance in the codex nudges it into the thumbs down IMO category in the greater scheme of the game and community. You're choosing to put on rose colored blinders when you think back about that book. That book single handedly broke up my local player group when two players decided to use it to their full potential. My point was that folks like yourself hold that book in such high regard without ever mentioning the massive problems that it had. Someone looking at it right now as a new player may not see much there but in the framework of the different rules of 3rd edition where eternal warrior was incredibly scarce and there was no overwatch or follow up moves when assaulted and special characters were permission only, having instakill models with potentially double digit attacks going at initiatives higher than almost anything else in the game assaulting corners of units and wiping out whole squads with NO attacks back from the assaulted unit and then doing the same thing in the second half of the same turn because you could consolidate and sweep into yet another unit... was bad.
warboss wrote: I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to a long time playtester and RPG rules writing freelancer but matters of balance are intrinsically linked to matters of structure and options.
You don't.
warboss wrote: It was the matter of structure in allowing a completely customizable set of daemon prince rules interacting with the undercosted/overpowered individual options that made the resulting combinations unbalanced. Throw in some unbalanced legion rules (a minority admittedly) and other unbalanced and undercosted units (like Oblits at natural t5 at their original points) and you have an unholy mess of a codex that had individual models that could run through 2 whole units a game turn without even considering what the rest of the army was doing. If a rules writer doesn't bother considering how that structure and those option interact, it completely screws balance. The same is true of RPGs where things like individual feats in D&D weren't at first glance grossly OP but rather simply powerful but when used in combo with other things in an unregulated lack of structure made them ridiculous.
1. There was nothing wrong with Oblits at T5. That's what they were meant to be, and they were fine. You got 1 unit of them and they couldn't get Marks. That was the balancing factor.
2. I'm never going to deny that elements of that book were too powerful or in some cases too weak (1KSons anyone?), but that doesn't stop the fact that the structure/options were excellent. They weren't balanced because like everything GW is good on concept and bad on execution. You could make the same argument for many of the books of that era, like the Guard book. Doctrines were a wonderful idea badly implemented. Didn't bring down the whole book though. Same applies here.
warboss wrote: I don't disagree with any of the above except for the last sentance. The complete lack of balance in the codex nudges it into the thumbs down IMO category in the greater scheme of the game and community. You're choosing to put on rose colored blinders when you think back about that book. That book single handedly broke up my local player group when two players decided to use it to their full potential. My point was that folks like yourself hold that book in such high regard without ever mentioning the massive problems that it had. Someone looking at it right now as a new player may not see much there but in the framework of the different rules of 3rd edition where eternal warrior was incredibly scarce and there was no overwatch or follow up moves when assaulted and special characters were permission only, having instakill models with potentially double digit attacks going at initiatives higher than almost anything else in the game assaulting corners of units and wiping out whole squads with NO attacks back from the assaulted unit and then doing the same thing in the second half of the same turn because you could consolidate and sweep into yet another unit... was bad.
I'm not looking back at it with rose-coloured blinders. There's no need to. The book was magnificent. A celebration of Chaotic diversity the likes of which the game had never seen before or since. You could play any Legion with full options, all the Daemons were there, a full host of Daemonic Gifts, Daemon Weapons and general Wargear, vehicle mutations, new units, old units, a competent and streamlined Mark system. It was missing Cultists/Lost & The Damned stuff, but beyond that it had everything. Not being balanced in no way changes any of that. Not being balanced just means that the book never lived up to its full potential because many units were too good/obvious takes, and many were utter trash.
And I do mention the problems with it. I mentioned them in the post you replied to. I'm sorry it broke you group up, but that's really your problem (and their's) not the book's.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, what, you'll think they'll let you add 'em back in with Marks?
This is 40K Chaos. They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book. And to add insult to injury the one time they released a Legion-based supplement, it was for the most vanilla Chaos Legion of all!
The only thing they're going to add is pointless DLC.
That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!). There was a reason that it was replaced by another codex within IIRC 2-3 years and it was because it was grossly unbalanced and about as fun to play against as sticking fingers in a light socket. That book and the ccombos it allowed single handedly destroyed my local scene when two chaos players decided to place no limits on themselves when using it. I know you play chaos but lets call a spade a spade and not put that broken mess of easily abusable rules on such a revered pedestal.
That of course doesn't mean that I support turning cult troops into paid DLC for the codex. If anything, the chaos codex should be a super sized one like the vanilla marines with both legion rules and cult troops but that won't ever happen again. Still, paid DLC cult troops (if done correctly and not just PA ones but rather terminators and where applicable jump troops) is still better than no cult troops at all. That is, unfortunately, the only realistic choice the modern GW will give players.
I will agree that the chaos book was hard core but the 3rd ed Space Wolf book was a pamphlet that gutted the 2nd ed book I will wait to see what the future holds for chaos.
Since 4th edition, Chaos has been getting the nerf-hammer/bland-bat, and Wolves have actually gotten better and better with each edition, so that argument is invalid based on that surmise.
Extremely lazy, releases unfinished games and broken games. Terrible player customization, having to pay for half the options. So the question is whether... if GW is becoming Ubisoft. Or Ubisoft is becoming GW...
In terms of rule writing, GW has thus far, fallen off their ass.
I wish GW was much better at rules writing.
The only way to fix GW is not to follow their rules and help your clubs make their own rules and standardize it and try to rebalance all the units so that they make sense XD
So basically the question is do I prefer the option filled, fluffy 3.5 codex with awful internal balance or the boring current codex with awful internal balance. Instead of the obliterator, basilisk iron warriors we now have plague bike hell turkey armies. Sure they're not as meta breaking as they used to be but that's what Taudar is for. Being ticked off about a GW rule set lacking balance is like me being ticked off at my dog for not being able to use the toilet. It would be great, but with every steaming pile I'm forced to endure I've accepted it's not going to happen.
Arbitrator wrote: I'm taking more salt with this than I did with the Fantasy 9th Edition rumours.
The Cult troops already HAVE models and they're pretty popular at that. Aged? Yes, but they actually exist. I just don't see it happening. The only way I could see it happening is if they rapidly put out say... "Codex: World Eaters" supplements.
That or they've finally lost all subtly when it comes to "Please, please, please, just play Loyalist Codex #135151 like the other kids! Look, more toys for them! Don't you wanna join in the fun too, Lil Jimmy boy?!"
Come 8th CSMs will be a bloody Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines.
I could totally see this working.
All units with Chapter Tactics Traitors:
Gain fear
Soul Blaze for one weapon per squad at no additional cost (use random allocation rules to determine which model receives the Dark gods blessing)
Must always accept and issue a challenge when in close combat.
Ah yes. Good point Unix. The idea that the 3.5 was bad because it was unbalanced and the current Chaos Codex or the 'Chaos' abomination that came after 3.5 was somehow not unbalanced... well that's just silly.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ah yes. Good point Unix. The idea that the 3.5 was bad because it was unbalanced and the current Chaos Codex or the 'Chaos' abomination that came after 3.5 was somehow not unbalanced... well that's just silly.
Got it. As long as it is grossly unbalanced in your favor, the codex is glorious. If the balance pendulum swings the other way, it is an abomination.
warboss wrote: Got it. As long as it is grossly unbalanced in your favor, the codex is glorious. If the balance pendulum swings the other way, it is an abomination.
I never said that. You know I never said that. So cut it out right now.
I've already said that the 3.5 'Dex had balance problems. I'm not going to deny them, and I never have.
And I have made it painfully clear - for years - that the reason why the 'Chaos' Codex that followed the 3.5 'Dex as an abomination was because it utterly destroyed everything that made Chaos Chaos. No daemonic gifts. Generic daemons. No legions. And so on and so forth. I even wrote a massive fething thread on the whole affair when it came out.
So do not - DO NOT - accuse me of disliking a book only because of it's ingame power. I couldn't give two gaks about ingame power most of the time.
warboss wrote: Got it. As long as it is grossly unbalanced in your favor, the codex is glorious. If the balance pendulum swings the other way, it is an abomination.
I never said that. You know I never said that. So cut it out right now.
Ahem... Regarding the book that was unbalanced in your favor...
H.B.M.C. wrote: They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book.
and the one that was bland and less powerful you referred to as...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ah yes. Good point Unix. The idea that the 3.5 was bad because it was unbalanced and the current Chaos Codex or the 'Chaos' abomination that came after 3.5 was somehow not unbalanced... well that's just silly.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. In any case, the side track is starting to derail the thread so I'll drop it for another day when the same thing inevitably pops up.
warboss wrote: Got it. As long as it is grossly unbalanced in your favor, the codex is glorious. If the balance pendulum swings the other way, it is an abomination.
I never said that. You know I never said that. So cut it out right now.
I've already said that the 3.5 'Dex had balance problems. I'm not going to deny them, and I never have.
And I have made it painfully clear - for years - that the reason why the 'Chaos' Codex that followed the 3.5 'Dex as an abomination was because it utterly destroyed everything that made Chaos Chaos. No daemonic gifts. Generic daemons. No legions. And so on and so forth. I even wrote a massive fething thread on the whole affair when it came out.
So do not - DO NOT - accuse me of disliking a book only because of it's ingame power. I couldn't give two gaks about ingame power most of the time.
Remember 4th edition chaos?
Back when we could have chaos daemon princes on bikes. Oh god 4th ed was one of my favorites. Especially compared to 3rd.
Remember when they had to FAQ the 100 points of wargear bit where it actually didn't count to the maximum points of the entire list? I actually won a tournament because of that, till they FAQed it and fixed it XD.
The problem with the 3.5 dex is it didn't fit in with the design style of the other dexes for its time. Meanwhile the 4+ chaos dexes had the same problem, only in reverse. A paradox that seemingly cannot be fixed. Meanwhile if the 4+ dexes had been released in 3rd and the 3.5 in the 4+s, i think people would have been much happier.
Um just to weigh in on the debate between H.B.M.C. and w.arboss....
HBMC is right dude. And furthermore nothing in the game since it's Inception (okay it's 3rd edition dex') has been as OP as Necrons. (Grey Knights are the next OP once they were cleaved off the much better Daemonhunters dex.)
The 3.5 dex was fluffy but it was not OP, Dreadaxe was awesome and kinda beardy, but only in the hands of a daemon prince. Other then that everything was pretty balanced, and points per model made them on level with the Space Marines. And Space Marines had just as much OP junk as anyone else.
First of all, it strikes me as being rather disingenuous (warboss) to suggest that someone, whether it be myself or H.B.M.C., or anyone else for that matter, is disappointed or dissatisfied with the current Chaos codex and the last merely because we're WAAC power gamers. How would you know, out of curiosity? Anyway, meh, for whatever reason there are segments of the community here and elsewhere that simply refuse to "get it", so no sense in entertaining any further discussion on that point.
In any case, Games Workshop's treatment of Chaos over the last three editions has been so incompetent, especially in the age of Chapter Tactics for every Loyalist and his dog, that I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass. That in itself is a rather sad commentary. Hopefully they manage to do a decent job of it - I'm not going to hold my breath though.
Edit: At one point I had a Black Legion army, a Thousand Sons army and a Death Guard army. The former two were sold and traded respectively a few months ago. If Games Workshop continues consistently to illustrate that they have no idea what they're doing with Chaos, by making an already bland and uninspired codex even more so, I guess I'll be migrating to 30k permanently.
I'm disappointed with the current codex because it represents nothing. When you take a long list of varieties of chaos there isn't a single one properly represented by that codex. It doesn't give you anything that truly represents legion era chaos marines despite being the origin of many of the special characters and it doesn't really represent the recently turned loyalists goned traitor who magically found ancient tech and lost everything they had. It tries representing everything without representing anything.
GW seemingly wants what they see as a broader appealing more abstract representation of chaos, which is fine but you still have to give players something to work with. Chaos could still be better representative even if it had non-legion specific type chapter tactics yet it gets nothing.
Oh. I see how you've interpreted that. No, I was saying that they're all bad when it comes to balance, and that the idea that the 3.5 was somehow worse than the 'Chaos' Codex and the current Chaos Codex was silly, and how whining about it being unbalanced as if it were somehow a criticism unique to that book was silly because they're all unbalanced.
ChaosReigns999 wrote: First of all, it strikes me as being rather disingenuous (warboss) to suggest that someone, whether it be myself or H.B.M.C., or anyone else for that matter, is disappointed or dissatisfied with the current Chaos codex and the last merely because we're WAAC power gamers.
Well, "You only care about power!" is the "You're racist/sexist!" of the miniature gaming world.
To put it another way, it's the argument you make when you have no argument to make.
ChaosReigns999 wrote: Edit: At one point I had a Black Legion army, a Thousand Sons army and a Death Guard army. The former two were sold and traded respectively a few months ago. If Games Workshop continues consistently to illustrate that they have no idea what they're doing with Chaos, by making an already bland and uninspired codex even more so, I guess I'll be migrating to 30k permanently.
I had Iron Warriors. And Word Bearers. And Alpha Legion. And Death Guard. And World Eaters. At a stretch I could do Emperor's Children (if I went heavy on the Daemons) or Night Lords (if I went heavy on the Furies). And I had enough Chaos stuff to do probably four of these armies at 3-5k points simultaneously. And a Lost & The Damned army on the side!
And he wants to talk about "power"? How 'bout the armies of mine that got invalidated. "Power" my left foot...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I don't think H.B.M.C. was praising it because of its OPness, more so because it was the last dex that actually accurately represent CSMs in all their glory.
The last few ones have been jokes option-wise compared to that one. The current one was better, but still terrible. We want to be able to play accurate representation of the warbands made up of the remnants of the Traitor Legions, not just Black-painted Evil Ultramarines with less flavour, Red-painted Evil Ultramarines that suck or Green-painted Evil Ultramarines that are pretty good but still just Evil Marines with +1T.
If the cult troops get removed from the dex and made day 1 DLC, that's more options (and the among the only flavourful ones) removed and that's insulting. Green-painted Evil Ultramarines will definitely be the only thing taken as the only thing saving Pink-painted Evil Ultramarines were their Cult troops...
What a fething crock of gak. The current edition of 40k allows one to field pretty much any combination of any units via "unbound" rules, so the current CSM Codex is, without a doubt, the one with the best tools to represent CSM in whatever "glory" one so desires via count as and so forth. The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination; further, it just exacerbates rules bloat in an edition with far too many special rules for their own good.
The only thing with the newer versions is a perceived reduction in power compared to what was clearly a top 2 Codex. That's the heart of the gripe. If not for the extra winning advantage, nobody would care.
Tell you what, you go play 3.5E but with a +50% cost penalty, and tell us how well it represents things. It's got the same Fluff and options, but would be completely uncompetitive in any gaming situation. Still gonna say how the OP-ness wasn't driving the train?
Oh. I see how you've interpreted that. No, I was saying that they're all bad when it comes to balance, and that the idea that the 3.5 was somehow worse than the 'Chaos' Codex and the current Chaos Codex was silly, and how whining about it being unbalanced as if it were somehow a criticism unique to that book was silly because they're all unbalanced.
ChaosReigns999 wrote: First of all, it strikes me as being rather disingenuous (warboss) to suggest that someone, whether it be myself or H.B.M.C., or anyone else for that matter, is disappointed or dissatisfied with the current Chaos codex and the last merely because we're WAAC power gamers.
Well, "You only care about power!" is the "You're racist/sexist!" of the miniature gaming world.
To put it another way, it's the argument you make when you have no argument to make.
ChaosReigns999 wrote: Edit: At one point I had a Black Legion army, a Thousand Sons army and a Death Guard army. The former two were sold and traded respectively a few months ago. If Games Workshop continues consistently to illustrate that they have no idea what they're doing with Chaos, by making an already bland and uninspired codex even more so, I guess I'll be migrating to 30k permanently.
I had Iron Warriors. And Word Bearers. And Alpha Legion. And Death Guard. And World Eaters. At a stretch I could do Emperor's Children (if I went heavy on the Daemons) or Night Lords (if I went heavy on the Furies). And I had enough Chaos stuff to do probably four of these armies at 3-5k points simultaneously. And a Lost & The Damned army on the side!
And he wants to talk about "power"? How 'bout the armies of mine that got invalidated. "Power" my left foot...
As some who played in tournaments before during and after 3.5, it wasn't a big deal, this was around the same time as lists like Nidzilla, marine assault cannon spam, Tau Fish of fury and the immortal falcons lists. 3.5 chaos was a noob slayer the same as eldar is currently, bad generals cant deal with them and immediately call cheese as a crutch for their suckitude. The "I win" warriors lists weren't all that scary, this was in an edition where balanced all comers armies could and did beat the one trick pony "net lists" of the time before they eventually became nearly mandatory due to lack of cross balancing and lazy writing.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I don't think H.B.M.C. was praising it because of its OPness, more so because it was the last dex that actually accurately represent CSMs in all their glory.
The last few ones have been jokes option-wise compared to that one. The current one was better, but still terrible. We want to be able to play accurate representation of the warbands made up of the remnants of the Traitor Legions, not just Black-painted Evil Ultramarines with less flavour, Red-painted Evil Ultramarines that suck or Green-painted Evil Ultramarines that are pretty good but still just Evil Marines with +1T.
If the cult troops get removed from the dex and made day 1 DLC, that's more options (and the among the only flavourful ones) removed and that's insulting. Green-painted Evil Ultramarines will definitely be the only thing taken as the only thing saving Pink-painted Evil Ultramarines were their Cult troops...
What a fething crock of gak. The current edition of 40k allows one to field pretty much any combination of any units via "unbound" rules, so the current CSM Codex is, without a doubt, the one with the best tools to represent CSM in whatever "glory" one so desires via count as and so forth. The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination; further, it just exacerbates rules bloat in an edition with far too many special rules for their own good.
The only thing with the newer versions is a perceived reduction in power compared to what was clearly a top 2 Codex. That's the heart of the gripe. If not for the extra winning advantage, nobody would care.
Tell you what, you go play 3.5E but with a +50% cost penalty, and tell us how well it represents things. It's got the same Fluff and options, but would be completely uncompetitive in any gaming situation. Still gonna say how the OP-ness wasn't driving the train?
One of the best tools in the current edition? Considering the only other books we can use are Loyalist codexex that aren't chaos-y in any way or 30k list, yeah it is one of the best tools since there aren't really any other tools. "The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination"? So adding rules to make the book that lacks imagination a better representation of Chaos Space Marines lacks imagination? I'm guessing you think that Codex:Space Marines lacks imagination because it has Chapter Tactics?
In an age with Chapter Tactics, is it too much to ask to gain some Legion/Warband specific rules?
Tell you what, you go play 3.5E but with a +50% cost penalty, and tell us how well it represents things. It's got the same Fluff and options, but would be completely uncompetitive in any gaming situation. Still gonna say how the OP-ness wasn't driving the train?
So basically make an OP dex even less powerful than the current dex? Honestly some would complain and while playing an UP army would be annoying I'd still be happy that I could at least play with an army that plays like a Word Bearers warband, not just looking like one but playing like Dark Red-painted Evil Ultramarines -1.
And if you are saying that it has the same fluff and options as the current book... no it doesn't. It has a larger variety of upgrades and options.
Amusingly, what got me to start playing 40k (besides the first Dawn of War game) when I was a kid was buying a copy of the 3.5 Edition Chaos Codex on a whim at my local comic/hobby shop. I was fascinated with the idea of a faction that had enough diversity to produce 9 sub-factions that would quite evidently play demonstrably differently - even if I didn't know much about 40k at the time. Times have sure changed.
Incidentally I've always wanted a Word Bearers army. They're my favourite Traitor Legion. I'm honestly not sure why anyone would undertake to build a fluffy Word Bearers army under the current rules though - it seems like it would be an exercise in self-punishment. No greater affinity for daemons than any of the other Traitor Legions anymore, apparently every Traitor Legion (and plenty of Renegade Chapters) have Dark Apostles now, the Mark of Chaos Undivided has been removed. It's also difficult to tell from their very short entry in the current Chaos codex whether they've been retconned to "they each venerate one" Chaos God, or whether that's a typo and "each one venerates" the entire pantheon. In conclusion, what are Word Bearers then? Just a colour scheme, sadly. I hope Games Workshop hasn't been surprised by the popularity of the Legiones Astartes rules in 30k. Anyway, that's enough of me ranting about stuff no one cares about.
Frankly, I would not be impressed if these supposed dataslates ended up having nothing more than Cult Marines and Cult Terminators. That's price gouging the players for content included in the previous codex, and for units that could very easily be added to the codex via a brief "You may equip the entire squad with Terminator Armour for X points per model. Cult Terminators replace their default weapons/wargear with a power weapon and a combi-bolter and may only take upgrades available to standard Chaos Terminators. The Champion may only take upgrades from the Terminator Weapons section" and wherever else the designers please. Obviously that's not exactly how it should be written, but the gist is easy enough to grasp, I think.
If they want to charge $50 a pop, let it be for fully fledged Cult Legion supplements.
What a fething crock of gak. The current edition of 40k allows one to field pretty much any combination of any units via "unbound" rules, so the current CSM Codex is, without a doubt, the one with the best tools to represent CSM in whatever "glory" one so desires via count as and so forth. The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination; further, it just exacerbates rules bloat in an edition with far too many special rules for their own good.
Okay.
The only thing with the newer versions is a perceived reduction in power compared to what was clearly a top 2 Codex. That's the heart of the gripe. If not for the extra winning advantage, nobody would care.
JohnHwangDD wrote: What a fething crock of gak. The current edition of 40k allows one to field pretty much any combination of any units via "unbound" rules, so the current CSM Codex is, without a doubt, the one with the best tools to represent CSM in whatever "glory" one so desires via count as and so forth. The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination; further, it just exacerbates rules bloat in an edition with far too many special rules for their own good.
Typical DD nonsense. "Unbound" is not the answer and never will be the answer. You can't have an Unbound pick up game. Most tournaments will never be Unbound. Unbound is something that might be feasible between friends who organise beforehand. Just showing up with an army full of Plague Marines and Plague Bearers and going "Hey bro, Imma playin' my Death Guard, dat coo daddy-o?"* ain't gonna cut it.
And you damn well know that John. You're just being your typical wall-ish self. And here I was hoping you'd mellowed.
The thing is, the most recent chaos codexes still had power builds. Plague marines + heldrakes were pretty brutal. What they lacked was competitive options and theme for the non-power players.
JohnHwangDD wrote: What a fething crock of gak. The current edition of 40k allows one to field pretty much any combination of any units via "unbound" rules, so the current CSM Codex is, without a doubt, the one with the best tools to represent CSM in whatever "glory" one so desires via count as and so forth. The need for GW to spoon feed special rules is infantile and lacks imagination; further, it just exacerbates rules bloat in an edition with far too many special rules for their own good.
Typical DD nonsense. "Unbound" is not the answer and never will be the answer. You can't have an Unbound pick up game. Most tournaments will never be Unbound. Unbound is something that might be feasible between friends who organise beforehand. Just showing up with an army full of Plague Marines and Plague Bearers and going "Hey bro, Imma playin' my Death Guard, dat coo daddy-o?"* ain't gonna cut it.
And you damn well know that John. You're just being your typical wall-ish self. And here I was hoping you'd mellowed.
*People still talk like that, right?
To expand on this.. You could always play the game anyway you wanted with your friends. Unbound is a completely useless option and to give it legitimacy is disingenuous unless you're completely new to the game.
What! you now also have to pay for GW rumors?! Unbelievable!
In all fairness, if GW would install a feature on their page where you can pay some money and receive a random rumour that may or may not be true, that might actually give them quite a lot of revenue
Torga_DW wrote: The thing is, the most recent chaos codexes still had power builds. Plague marines + heldrakes were pretty brutal. What they lacked was competitive options and theme for the non-power players.
Exactly. Same thing happened with the 'Chaos' Codex that came after 3.5. It had Plague Marine/Oblit armies.
Accolade wrote: If this latest batch of rumors are true, then it seems WHFB is contracting itself in compactly while 40k is spreading itself further and further out. I mean, how many dataslates do we have now?
21, if I counted right. And 3 WD entries - Gerantius, Looted Wagon and i think the spore pods for the tyranids but they should come in the shield of baal book as well.
That's for units. There are also some scenarios, missions, cities of death stuff and similar I couldn't be arsed to give a damn about.
There are also some forgeworld units that have their rules on downloadables, campaign books that feature a certain HQ or formation, the Imperial Armour books, various extensions such as Death from the skies, apocalypse, escalation, zone mortalis etc etc.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Oh, I'm sorry, but we're actively ignoring what the rulebook says about what players can field?
Riiight...
Total fething crock o gak.
Yes we are, because many other people actively ignore to the point where it isn't feasible. It can be real hard to find people who will play unbound, even with friends.
Even then unbound would only do an ok to only just adequate job of representing the non-cult/non-Black Legion traitor warbands since it doesn't grant you the special rules to represent certain forces (infiltrate for Alpha Legion, Night Vision/Fear no matter how useless they are for Night Lords) and levels of alliances still apply (so Iron Warriors have to stay 12" away from their Basilisks)
And even with unbound Word Bearers wouldn't be anything special besides Dark Red Evil Ultramarines -1 with lots of Daemons and Dark Apostles, something you can do without Unbound (since you can spam Dark Apostles with a 100 point Cultist tax)
EDIT: Also it's kind of embarrassing for IW players when IF are better siege masters than they are...
I'll be happy that White Dwarf is getting rules added to it like the old days, but not at the expense of the actual contents of the codex. Now obviously, it has happened before, but not for units that have been a part of every codex they have ever been in, to my knowledge at least. Separate Dataslates would be even worse.
Pilau Rice wrote: I'll be happy that White Dwarf is getting rules added to it like the old days, but not at the expense of the actual contents of the codex. Now obviously, it has happened before, but not for units that have been a part of every codex they have ever been in, to my knowledge at least. Separate Dataslates would be even worse.
It does seem awfully salt worthy to me.
Well, the SM codex lost Legion of the Damned, IG lost stormtroopers, Orks lost looted wagons, Tyranids lost their drop pods. So there are cases where old units got pushed out of the codex in order to sell more books.
Pilau Rice wrote: I'll be happy that White Dwarf is getting rules added to it like the old days, but not at the expense of the actual contents of the codex. Now obviously, it has happened before, but not for units that have been a part of every codex they have ever been in, to my knowledge at least. Separate Dataslates would be even worse.
It does seem awfully salt worthy to me.
Well, the SM codex lost Legion of the Damned, IG lost stormtroopers, Orks lost looted wagons, Tyranids lost their drop pods. So there are cases where old units got pushed out of the codex in order to sell more books.
Tyranids didn't always have drop pods though did they(?) whereas Chaos have always had Cult troops or the ability to make Cult Troops.
And like I said, to my knowledge, so pardon my ignorance
It totally sucks if they decide to take the flavour of the dark gods out of the codex, when they should be cramming more of it into it. In my oppinion almost all units should be able to take some form of mark-thingie, which doesn't have to alter the game completely.
Chaos needs support, not cuts. Shape up, GW!
The dream would instead be "Codex:Tratoris" jampacked with cultists, traitor guard (Astra Militarum Tratoris Extremis?), marines, heretechs and what have you!
Then I would give up my current start of a Tyranids force and jump on the ruinous band wagon.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Oh, I'm sorry, but we're actively ignoring what the rulebook says about what players can field?
Riiight...
Total fething crock o gak.
Unbound is not an excuse to remove options from Codexes. Lots of people don't play unbound. The fact of the matter is, 3.5ed Chaos was much much better at representing the legions (even with unbound in consideration). The power was a bit wonky but it's clear that H.B.M.C isn't after the power, but the representation. I mean I really don't know how people are reading otherwise.
Do you even play chaos now? Their codex is bland even before you take out the choices you'll never use because they're crap.
GW doesn't need to specifically do the Cults. What they need to do are the LEGIONS, which incidentally would cover the Cults. Every single Chaos Space Marines player I know of wants a Chaos Space Marines codex that supports the Chaos Space Marine LEGIONS, and yet, time and time again, GW gives them NOT what they want. I have to say "them" and "they" rather than "me" and "us", as I gave up years ago and got rid of my Chaos Space Marines. Chaos Space Marine LEGIONS would surely draw me back in, but does GW have a big enough crowbar to pry its head out of its own butt, such that they actually would do Chaos Space Marine LEGIONS? Who knows? There are a staggering number of kits to be released in support of such an effort. Somebody just needs to put the plan together and pull the trigger on it. I don't think it too presumptuous to say that we ALL want Chaos Space Marine LEGION models that look as awesome as the Chosen models from Dark Vengeance starter set, but will we ever get LEGION rules again, and so also get model support for them? Maybe the reason we haven't seen the release of certain model kits for Chaos Space Marines (such as Havocs) is because GW is in the process of revamping them to be of similar quality to the Dark Vengeance starter set minis. If that were the case my shopping list would be rather sizable, but I am not very optimistic at this point.
I could appreciate giving the chaos marine book legion traits a la 3.5 or the 6th edition marine book. I couldn't even begin on suggestions, but something that reflects the fluff without being overpowered.
This rumor from Steve the Warboss is probably not true. Darnok has posted this a few hours ago on Warseer:
Chaos Space Marines in the pipeline
Originally Posted by Steve the Warboss
Regarding Codex Chaos Space Marines
-No Cult Marines in the Codex
-Few Rule changes
-Dataslates for Cult Marines, Terminators, Chosen ect. in White Dwarf
-One Chaos God per Issue (each with their own dataslates for Berzerker Termis, Plague Termis ect.)
I first came across this on Dakka², and I guess it originated from Faeit.
So far I only have heard about a CSM supplement in March. Maybe some more details will surface over the next weeks.
So, either a Campaign Supplement like Leviathan/Exterminatus or a Codex CSM: Supplement like Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter. Release order in spring should be Necrons -> Harlequin models -> CSM Supplement.
The following is not a rumor. Maybe they do a Harlequin - CSM campaign supplement like Tyranids+BA. Would allow for a convenient implementation of new unit rules for both factions.
Long ago I used to have a sizable Khorne and Slannesh army, but after several editions of watered down blandness, I gave up my old chaos army. The rules wouldn't allow me field the armies I used to.
I had a really cool converted noise marine dread with a lady on top on a throne.
Now Chaos is just a bunch of bland traitors without millennia of history or the new toys of the recently turned.
(This DD guy doesn't know much about chaos...or unbound.)
2nd ed Chaos was the best. That was a mighty book, thicker than all the other codicies of the time. I think it created modern chaos, prior to that the idea of plague marines and khorne berserkers weren't well defined, and all the special characters like Abaddon and Karn were created. And if that wasn't enough, there were more army lists for daemon world armies, chaos cultists and beast men in the back. And then if you flick to the last page, they've crammed in Cypher and the fallen Angels.
Everything after that was diluted and the power levels all over the place. 2nd was when it was fun and the writers clearly threw everything into it. GW wouldn't do that now. That book is three codicies and a dozen dataslates/DLC in current GW practice.
The 2nd ed book was really good. The best they could do would be to leave their +1 T, +1 Ini, +1 inv etc concept behind and give each unit something interesting and helpful instead. Like a low-point cost skyfire for Slannesh Havocs, Split-fire for Slannesh Oblits and other rules that makes those sensible options. Another way could be lower costs for marks, but they give bonus+malus instead of only the bonus to prevent the point cost explosion on units
Bonesnapper wrote: It totally sucks if they decide to take the flavour of the dark gods out of the codex, when they should be cramming more of it into it. In my oppinion almost all units should be able to take some form of mark-thingie, which doesn't have to alter the game completely.
Chaos needs support, not cuts. Shape up, GW!
The dream would instead be "Codex:Tratoris" jampacked with cultists, traitor guard (Astra Militarum Tratoris Extremis?), marines, heretechs and what have you!
Then I would give up my current start of a Tyranids force and jump on the ruinous band wagon.
Sorry for the wishlisting.
Huh, that sounds lovely. If they'd cram everything into it from simple traitors and separatists to demonic fanatics that would definitely be a codex to have. Sad to say, the tendency is not to expand but to reduce the volumes, since you sell more dataslates and stuff that way.
If the codex doesn't contain the rules to play with the army I own, what incentive is there to buy it? I have an army of each chaos legion. Now they're all just black vanilla....
I doubt GW would cut cults from the codex. It's too much of an identifying part of the army. The most I could see them doing is simply locking them in as elites requiring the dataslate to build the army where they're troops; that'd be consistent with GWs push to force us to play the most generic version of the army.
Devils advocate: a dataslate approach to each cult allows GW to organize the core chaos rules more consistently with other codices while expanding the cults into self contained sections allow them to add to those distinctive flavors without worrying about how players might mix-and-match different cult units to their own advantage. Could GW have just done four pages for each cult within the codex?-Yes, but you have to consider the degree these rules potentially and fundamentally alter respective units, more so if it goes beyond just individual units by also brings in enough army wide rules; between units and armywide rules you have something more involved than C:SM's chapter tactics and that may well justify a dataslate.
If this is true then I really hope they split it up because there would have been too much content for 1 codex otherwise. For example the main codex now contains all dataslates + most of black legion and crimson slaughter + undivided legion tactics.
And the cult dataslates/white dwarfs contain vehicle marks, special cult units, legion tactics, warlord traits, 6 psychic powers per god and some FOC stuff.
Yeah I would rather have this in 1 codex, even if I had to pay more for it. But if there is enough (good and cool) stuff in the dataslates and the main codex is not just the current one minus cult stuff. Then it might not be that bad.
Man from what I remember the IW spam armies weren't even that bad, it was the double Siren bike prince armies that sauntered up to your troops (because you couldn't shoot or charge them) and vomited Daemonettes (that could charge the turn they showed up) into your lines that were the real issue.
That being said, I liked the flavor of the 3.5 dex, and would welcome it back with a few tweaks.
I figure we will not lose much, in the end.
I suppose it was only a matter of time that we may have to buy rules "by the unit".
This plays into the problem of if they describe a unit in a Codex before they have a model released, a competitor can make one and sell it.
Then GW could be afoul of IP "copying" because someone else made the model first.
Make the model, send with it "temporary rules" in the box, release a dataslate of the new hotness, make money.
Makes sense? This seems like the most logical approach.
nobody wrote: Man from what I remember the IW spam armies weren't even that bad, it was the double Siren bike prince armies that sauntered up to your troops (because you couldn't shoot or charge them) and vomited Daemonettes (that could charge the turn they showed up) into your lines that were the real issue.
That being said, I liked the flavor of the 3.5 dex, and would welcome it back with a few tweaks.
I would honestly hate a return to the 3.5 'dex myself...
I know everyone loves to trumpet the idea about all the flavour it added, especially for Legions, but overall it was overall incredibly restrictive, especially for mono players.
For example, Khorne had 0 access to Havocs. Sure World Eaters aren't known for their big guns and sitting back, but it never made any sense at all that World Eaters or even just Khornate armies in general could never take a marked unit of Havocs tooled out with Meltas and/or Flamers. Nor did it make sense that every single Tzeentch-marked Marine was automatically a Rubric Marine, or that only Word Bearers could take Dark Apostles, while Cultists were limited strictly to Alpha Legion only, etc, etc...
The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
I disagree on restrictiveness being a problem. I felt you got enough rewards that it gave you a bonus for limiting your playstyle/options, while you could always play vanilla if you wanted mostly cult troops and vanillas to fill the gap. Restriction actually allows you to do more interesting things, since you can have pieces that would be broken in a combo, except they don't have access to the generic combo.
While the marks vs. cult troops argument can be made, the counter to that is that unmarked doesn't mean no alignment but no dedication (which is roughly what cults currently mean), and I don't honestly think that stripping obliterators of T5 and giving them access to marks changes the game much.
Regarding dark apostles, actually, yeah. They were the only ones who had them (in the fluff) so it makes sense that they'd be the only one with rules for them. Cultists were mostly modified into the Lost and the Damned list, and I think most other options fell under the dark apostle mode.
Vanilla with more options to attempt to represent anything is far less effective and interesting in my opinion than fewer options and balanced sub-lists that don't dump all over things being unique.
MWHistorian wrote: Long ago I used to have a sizable Khorne and Slannesh army, but after several editions of watered down blandness, I gave up my old chaos army. The rules wouldn't allow me field the armies I used to.
I had a really cool converted noise marine dread with a lady on top on a throne.
Now Chaos is just a bunch of bland traitors without millennia of history or the new toys of the recently turned.
(This DD guy doesn't know much about chaos...or unbound.)
Yeah they got worse and worse, lost more and more and now are pathetic and little different from vanilla marines.
No thank you.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, what, you'll think they'll let you add 'em back in with Marks?
This is 40K Chaos. They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book. And to add insult to injury the one time they released a Legion-based supplement, it was for the most vanilla Chaos Legion of all!
The only thing they're going to add is pointless DLC.
Well, to be fair, its not that much of a stretch to say "No Cult Marines" means the stock marine becomes the cult marine type with the appropriate mark, effectively removing the cult marine entries. Think about it, GW has stopped with the Force Org modifications so this would be the only real way to get an all-cult army, and it would allow those cults to be be all marine types. It would also allow the lesser used cults to suddenly become useful. Who doesn't want Khorne Berzerkers on bikes or with jump packs??? This would open the market up for new chaos marine models (a basic tac squad would have bits to make all 4 styles, a basic terminator box or biker box would be the same way).
As is the case with so many of these rumors, some parts are simply misinterpreted or are dealing with incomplete info. One person notices no codex entries for khorne berzerkers or 1,000 Sons (which really should not be the defacto cult troop of Tzeentch in my opinion) and suddenly that means cult troops are removed.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Oh, I'm sorry, but we're actively ignoring what the rulebook says about what players can field?
Riiight...
Total fething crock o gak.
Unbound is not an excuse to remove options from Codexes. Lots of people don't play unbound. The fact of the matter is, 3.5ed Chaos was much much better at representing the legions (even with unbound in consideration). The power was a bit wonky but it's clear that H.B.M.C isn't after the power, but the representation. I mean I really don't know how people are reading otherwise.
Do you even play chaos now? Their codex is bland even before you take out the choices you'll never use because they're crap.
Those options never should have been put into the Codex. Everybody should accept unbound - that's what the rulebook says. I still think 3.5 was crap.
If people really want the options, but not the power, just continue to play 3.5 with a big points tax. The reality of 3.5 was that people were taking undercosted units and options, and letting that be the basis of their "fluff".
I still play Chaos. Ever since 3.0. It's very good. I particularly like the AoBF - especially as it's consistently underrated for what it does.
Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines
-No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex
-Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units
I wonder, does that mean cult marines are now always troops? without having to pay the marked lord/sorcerer tax and in any detatchment?
Since we are on the subject concerning cult troops, besides remakes of the infantry, there will be Cult Terminators for World Eaters and Death Guard. No Terminators for the other two Gods (as of now) but there will be a cavalry unit for Slaanesh.
from the source that said there would be new plague marine models on faeit 212.
Maybe the cavalry unit is slaanesh biker upgrades or something?
Originally Posted by totgeboren
Darnok, do you happen to know anything about the theme of the supposed new CSM supplement? Some random warband again I assume?
Well, I guess we'll see more supplements in the near future after the release of the Necron codex.
Starting a new cycle of codex releases makes not much seen atm since even CSM and DA are playable in the current edition.
Some care to the Cult Marines would definitely be a right move.
Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines
-No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex
-Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units
I've always had a spot for Chaos, and having Legions or ways to be good with Chaos would probably be the only way that I'd ever entertain playing 40k again. So here's hoping.
I'm vainly trying to recapture my youth, back in 2nd I had a very heavily biased to Slaanesh Chaos warband with Marines, Beastmen, Daemons etc..
Since 7th, for all it's faults, this is back on the table (well, as long as a counts as Beastment as cultists) without needing special permission or even unbound, so, having already been playing daemons for most of 6th, I've started adding some Chaos Marines (and by "some" I mean about 3k points!)
Even if it means datalsates, if GW are going to hand me options, I'm kinda ok with that, Noise Raptors and Havocs with Blastmasters, marked vehicles etc would all be very cool, even if it costs extra.
Hear that GW? I don't mind paying extra, as long as what I'm paying extra for is cool. Stop churning out gak and give us some quality product so we can give you money and hugs again.
Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines
-No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex
-Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units
dameanone wrote: Damn could you imagine 4 Blastmasters in one squad
Right?
I'll admit I've hardly gone backed and trawled through the codex to imagine how they might be modified to Legion flavoured, but on first glance this actually sounds like it could work well.
In the last week of March, GW will release a Codex for Khorne Warbands/Hordes.
It combines Khorne-themed CSM and daemon units. Formations, etc..
It is a one-week release with no new miniatures released for this new codex as such (but Zerkers, in all their old miniatures-glory, are actually in the Codex, no WD spin-offs).
The main purpose of this khorne codex is to ride in the slipstream of End Times 5, which will be released earlier in march, with the "headline"-release of the new Bloodthirster (builds 3 variants).
There is no "main" Codex CSM in 2015. There are no nurgle, tzeentch, etc. equivalents to this khorne one planned (yet), as it's mostly an End Times add-on to make the new Bloodthirster with all its variants work in 40K.
Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines
-No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex
-Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units
Sad Panda wrote: In the last week of March, GW will release a Codex for Khorne Warbands/Hordes.
It combines Khorne-themed CSM and daemon units. Formations, etc..
It is a one-week release with no new miniatures released for this new codex as such (but Zerkers, in all their old miniatures-glory, are actually in the Codex, no WD spin-offs).
The main purpose of this khorne codex is to ride in the slipstream of End Times 5, which will be released earlier in march, with the "headline"-release of the new Bloodthirster (builds 3 variants).
There is no "main" Codex CSM in 2015. There are no nurgle, tzeentch, etc. equivalents to this khorne one planned (yet), as it's mostly an End Times add-on to make the new Bloodthirster with all its variants work in 40K.
*sigh* Looks like we're never going to see a proper Lord of Change model... This will royally suck if the only Greater we get is the absolute worst one of the bunch.
Sure summoning a 'Thirster is great, but overall, colour me 110% disappointed if the only Greater we see this year is Khorne's.
*sigh* Looks like we're never going to see a proper Lord of Change model... This will royally suck if the only Greater we get is the absolute worst one of the bunch. Sure summoning a 'Thirster is great, but overall, colour me 110% disappointed if the only Greater we see this year is Khorne's.
Tzeentch is badly needing some love.
alternatively you could try this one from Mierce (it's big, about 105mm to the eye) I've spoilered it as it's not directly relevant to the thread
When I first started wh40k in 5th edition nearly 5 years ago, I made a commitment to only play Chaos Marines and no other army. It was easy to make that commitment because I did not have much money to have many different armies. After 5 years of fail, I felt like Failbadon and his 13 crusades. Collecting worthless minis thinking this is the artifact that will bring victory.
After hearing this rumor, I believe it. The codex should be renamed Chaos Cultist not Chaos Space Marines. Just remove the space marine element entirely. Most people just take cultists as troop tax anyways to allocate more points into other slots. A CSM is not worth his points and the other options such as plague and noise are just too expensive.
If they hurt CSM any more then I will feel good about selling my CSM army and quitting w40k for good. I do not plan on buying anymore of their codex or data slates. GW has done bad with their loyal customers and I no longer support GW with my wallet.
When the new dex for CSM comes out, look through it and if you dont like it, simply do not buy it. Shelf your CSM army or sell it, and play with a different army. The answer is simple.
I think one of the biggest problems with the CSM codex is that GW wants it to represent Renegades over the other 50% of CSM that legionaries in the setting but they do it by only saying that's what the book represents without actually having any rules that portray them as Renegades. As foolish as it is IF GW is going to keep saying that's what they're doing they need to write the codex to actually do it or they need to gives us something closer to what we want.
Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines -No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex -Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units
I would be fine with this, as long as it's a universal system like the 3.5 'Dex where "Mark of [Chaos God] does X, Y and Z to any unit, and cannot be given to Units A, B or C."
Experiment 626 wrote: I know everyone loves to trumpet the idea about all the flavour it added, especially for Legions, but overall it was overall incredibly restrictive, especially for mono players.
I've heard this argument before. It's no more true now than it was back then.
Experiment 626 wrote: For example, Khorne had 0 access to Havocs. Sure World Eaters aren't known for their big guns and sitting back, but it never made any sense at all that World Eaters or even just Khornate armies in general could never take a marked unit of Havocs tooled out with Meltas and/or Flamers.
Never made sense to you, you mean. This isn't the blue-and-white World Eaters of old, where they were angry but still relatively sane. This is the army after 10,000 years of dedication to Khorne.
Experiment 626 wrote: Nor did it make sense that every single Tzeentch-marked Marine was automatically a Rubric Marine...
Uhh... yes it did. That's what happened to the Legion. Rubric fethed them completely, leaving only the Sorcerers with real bodies.
Experiment 626 wrote: ...or that only Word Bearers could take Dark Apostles, while Cultists were limited strictly to Alpha Legion only, etc, etc...
I'll give you the cultist thing, but Dark Apostles were only a WB thing at the time.
Experiment 626 wrote: The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
Yeah... no. Codex: Space Marines is still better at representing the Chaos Legions than the actual Chaos Codex.
Experiment 626 wrote: The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
Yeah... no. Codex: Space Marines is still better at representing the Chaos Legions than the actual Chaos Codex.
I'm actually using the Spave Wolves codex to represent my World Eaters army, with everything modified to match. Bezerkers on juggernauts for my TWC, for example. Because sadly enough, I think that Space Wolf rules portray Khorne better than the Chaos Marine codex does.
Experiment 626 wrote: The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
Yeah... no. Codex: Space Marines is still better at representing the Chaos Legions than the actual Chaos Codex.
I'm actually using the Spave Wolves codex to represent my World Eaters army, with everything modified to match. Bezerkers on juggernauts for my TWC, for example. Because sadly enough, I think that Space Wolf rules portray Khorne better than the Chaos Marine codex does.
Yeah, i was thinking about using Blood Angles to represent Night Lords. Iron hands for Iron Warriors, Which Loyalist codex would match Alpha Legion?
Experiment 626 wrote: The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
Yeah... no. Codex: Space Marines is still better at representing the Chaos Legions than the actual Chaos Codex.
I'm actually using the Spave Wolves codex to represent my World Eaters army, with everything modified to match. Bezerkers on juggernauts for my TWC, for example. Because sadly enough, I think that Space Wolf rules portray Khorne better than the Chaos Marine codex does.
Yeah, i was thinking about using Blood Angles to represent Night Lords. Iron hands for Iron Warriors, Which Loyalist codex would match Alpha Legion?
Erm, maybe... Codex: Space Marines and guard allies? Depends if you want to go heavy on the cultist thing. What about the list in IA:13?
Alpha Legion aren't stealthy like Raven Guard though. They're more about subterfuge and sabotage and such as opposed to stealth and guerrilla warfare. There's quite a subtle difference between AL and RG but it is quite a big difference, if that makes sense...
It's quite hard to represent AL on the table. FW did it quite well in the Heresy books but that's not much help here...
ImAGeek wrote: Alpha Legion aren't stealthy like Raven Guard though. They're more about subterfuge and sabotage and such as opposed to stealth and guerrilla warfare. There's quite a subtle difference between AL and RG but it is quite a big difference, if that makes sense...
It's quite hard to represent AL on the table. FW did it quite well in the Heresy books but that's not much help here...
Aren't most alpha legionares feel quite shamed about their mutations. So would they have sabotage wide ability that damages all vechiles at the start of combat.
Experiment 626 wrote: The current Codex may lack the more niche elements such as Cult Termies and God-specific upgrades for units A/B/C, but overall, there's a million times more flexibility for representing and playing Legion-based armies.
Yeah... no. Codex: Space Marines is still better at representing the Chaos Legions than the actual Chaos Codex.
I'm actually using the Spave Wolves codex to represent my World Eaters army, with everything modified to match. Bezerkers on juggernauts for my TWC, for example. Because sadly enough, I think that Space Wolf rules portray Khorne better than the Chaos Marine codex does.
Yeah, i was thinking about using Blood Angles to represent Night Lords. Iron hands for Iron Warriors, Which Loyalist codex would match Alpha Legion?
feth this noise, I'm still starting a CSM army as my first 40K army, and if this turns true I'm just going to tell people I'm running my Night Lords either on Horus Heresy rules with the cult troops taken as battle brother allies.
I think this rumour has a chance, but without a codex release. I think there is a chance for cult terminator etc releases in white dwarf. That sounds more likely to me.
I could believe this. Look at GW over the last year.
New infantry kits are few and far between. It's all about the large, high mark up products (or "collectibles") now.
They are also removing all their old metal kits from the range and no longer including units in the codex which don't have a plastic kit (bar a few resin characters models). As the Cult Marines don't have plastic infantry (except Khorne Berserkers) and GW presumably aren't intending to release them, they will be supported by specialist rules only.
This is why I'm beginning to think Sisters of Battle will be quietly dropped at some stage. The end of GWas we know it is coming.
Flashman wrote: This is why I'm beginning to think Sisters of Battle will be quietly dropped at some stage.
They seriously need to either pull the trigger or update Sisters already. This life support thing they're doing is driving me crazy. Seriously, I'd be less mad if they just dropped the army instead of stringing me along at this point.
It's already been changing and honestly I can't be too upset with what they're doing so far. Even the rumors for WFB honestly don't even upset me because the game is dying and needs some serious overhaul before it pulls the company further down the drain.
ClockworkZion wrote: Seriously, I'd be less mad if they just dropped the army instead of stringing me along at this point.
You just need to get excited about another army (potentially for another game), and you will then be happy enough with the current situation: if there are no opponent for the other game, you can still play with your sisters, and if there is ever a worthwhile update, you will have your army ready.
ClockworkZion wrote: Seriously, I'd be less mad if they just dropped the army instead of stringing me along at this point.
You just need to get excited about another army (potentially for another game), and you will then be happy enough with the current situation: if there are no opponent for the other game, you can still play with your sisters, and if there is ever a worthwhile update, you will have your army ready.
Yeah, you're not selling me on Warmachine. It's just not the game for me.
And I like 40k just fine, I'm building a Nids army currently. I'm doing Hive Fleet Kraken. I just want GW to gak or get off the pot when it comes to Sisters.
Flashman wrote: I could believe this. Look at GW over the last year.
New infantry kits are few and far between. It's all about the large, high mark up products (or "collectibles") now.
Flashgits, wracks, BA tacticals and Termies. BA Tacticals and Termies!
And not to far back maries got veterans and loyalist devs (3 boxes of infantry), AM got stormtroopers and ogryns. And lots of infantry HQ turned plastic.
Not that many "big kits" these days though.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, you're not selling me on Warmachine. It's just not the game for me.
I am not trying to sell you Warmachine. I am trying to sell you the game for you, whatever it is. That is why I mentioned no name. It could anything.
I certainly understood that you did not like Warmachine, and that is why I certainly will not advertise that one game to you.
I can give you the ork walker, and maybe some tyranids as somewhat forced, but bringing up End Times in this cotext is just silly; its a specific campaign with the purpose of going big.
SW got a much needed flyer, but the majority of Codex/army book releases of -14 has been focusing more on updating infantry and HQ or occasional blank spots in the range.
Edit:even the multitude of campaign boxarmies and dataslates/formations focus heavily on infantry far more than monster mash.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, you're not selling me on Warmachine. It's just not the game for me.
I am not trying to sell you Warmachine. I am trying to sell you the game for you, whatever it is. That is why I mentioned no name. It could anything.
I certainly understood that you did not like Warmachine, and that is why I certainly will not advertise that one game to you.
I've tried other games, but the only game that really fills that niche for me has been 40k. And it's not about leaving 40k, it's just about the company being honest and either updating an army I play or dropping it completely so I can look at other projects instead.
Personnaly of what i've seen, if it is like " All CSM units, can be upgrade to a Cult for xpts" and that lets say a CSM squad with the Zerker Cult upgrade gets +1WS+1A(or rage), FC and Fearless AND they still have their options, then i say yes, finnaly a Zerker squad with 2 meltas to open ennemy transports before going in.
Now if they do the dame thing then in 3.5dex with the restrictions on the options the unit can take given the Cult, then yeah its bollocks.
But at least if its true, no more No-Fearless Termies...
Just wanted to remind people that I had early information regarding this release over a year ago.
Yup, feth this. I don't want my codex broken into pieces and sold to me as goddamn DLC.
That's been the general direction Warhammer 40k has been heading in for awhile. After the Ork and Dark Eldar release I saw the change in the winds and sold off my 6000+ point CSM army and 3000+ point ork armies. Unless your playing a Forgeworld list, that's just the nature of 40k now.
Been kinda getting back into fantasy in all honesty since the end times is actually new content and not repackaged rules that were ripped out of my armybook and sold to me as a separate book.
=/
One of my very reliable birdies told me to not expect a new CSM codex, but only a supplement. And while it is centered around Khorne (plus at least one new unit and new models in plastic), it is not about a Legion, but a renegade warband. This is a contradiction to the rumour in the OP by Steve the Warboss, and only one set of those rumours can be correct in the end.
Another twist is we could get both, or get one now and the other later.
Either way Darnok has some info and that's usually a good sign of something coming.
Sad Panda wrote: In the last week of March, GW will release a Codex for Khorne Warbands/Hordes.
It combines Khorne-themed CSM and daemon units. Formations, etc..
It is a one-week release with no new miniatures released for this new codex as such (but Zerkers, in all their old miniatures-glory, are actually in the Codex, no WD spin-offs).
The main purpose of this khorne codex is to ride in the slipstream of End Times 5, which will be released earlier in march, with the "headline"-release of the new Bloodthirster (builds 3 variants).
There is no "main" Codex CSM in 2015. There are no nurgle, tzeentch, etc. equivalents to this khorne one planned (yet), as it's mostly an End Times add-on to make the new Bloodthirster with all its variants work in 40K.
I know it is "cool" to not trust new members, but this one is spot on, as far as I know.
Sad Panda wrote: In the last week of March, GW will release a Codex for Khorne Warbands/Hordes.
It combines Khorne-themed CSM and daemon units. Formations, etc..
It is a one-week release with no new miniatures released for this new codex as such (but Zerkers, in all their old miniatures-glory, are actually in the Codex, no WD spin-offs).
The main purpose of this khorne codex is to ride in the slipstream of End Times 5, which will be released earlier in march, with the "headline"-release of the new Bloodthirster (builds 3 variants).
There is no "main" Codex CSM in 2015. There are no nurgle, tzeentch, etc. equivalents to this khorne one planned (yet), as it's mostly an End Times add-on to make the new Bloodthirster with all its variants work in 40K.
I know it is "cool" to not trust new members, but this one is spot on, as far as I know.
I hope that this time GW will not torment us by making us wait 2+ years for all 4 of the Greaters to be released...
Last time, Khorne was 1st, the GUO came about 6-7 months afterwards, followed by another 7-8 month wait for the LoC, while the poor Keeper finally showed up about 5-6 months later.
It would be nice for once to see Slaanesh & Tzeentch jump the cue, but apparently GW doesn't want my money.
I hope that this time GW will not torment us by making us wait 2+ years for all 4 of the Greaters to be released...
Last time, Khorne was 1st, the GUO came about 6-7 months afterwards, followed by another 7-8 month wait for the LoC, while the poor Keeper finally showed up about 5-6 months later.
It would be nice for once to see Slaanesh & Tzeentch jump the cue, but apparently GW doesn't want my money.
That's assuming all 4 greaters do end up getting released. How many years has it been since plastic beserkers (1 of the cults) were released?
In the early days of 3rd Ed, when the Jervis Dex was out and that MoK gave +1S and that you could Roll 3 times on the "good" Mutations chart for Possesed..., and also for some reason you had in FA units of Juggers.., yes the ones in pewter that moved only 6" at the time...
Come to think of it, CSM would be next in line after Necrons are updated.
GW could remove Chaos Daemons and CSM and instead just make 4 books of the various gods with Demons and Cult troops inside. I don't think I like that approach because all legions that are not completely swamped with demons (iron warriors, alpha legion, night lods maybe too) will be a pain in the butt to represent, especially if they put havocs in one book, tacticals in another and raptors in a third...
Speaking of Cult terminators - Forge allready has khorne terminator kits. Maybe the whole thing will be much less of a big deal and they'll just release a few white dwarfs with updated cult kits and maybe new cult terminators?
ClockworkZion wrote: I've tried other games, but the only game that really fills that niche for me has been 40k. And it's not about leaving 40k, it's just about the company being honest and either updating an army I play or dropping it completely so I can look at other projects instead.
Then just start out a new project for 40k, get excited with it and stop caring about Sisters beside checking rumors for any good news. You can notice that even in my first message, I merely said potentially for another game. It is just that personally, I think “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” applies perfectly here, but you seem to see it otherwise.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Now if they do the dame thing then in 3.5dex with the restrictions on the options the unit can take given the Cult, then yeah its bollocks.
You mean, like, take the MoK and no more Heavy Weapons in your 'Zerker squads? That wasn't bollocks. That made sense.
ClockworkZion wrote: I've tried other games, but the only game that really fills that niche for me has been 40k. And it's not about leaving 40k, it's just about the company being honest and either updating an army I play or dropping it completely so I can look at other projects instead.
Then just start out a new project for 40k, get excited with it and stop caring about Sisters beside checking rumors for any good news. You can notice that even in my first message, I merely said potentially for another game. It is just that personally, I think “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” applies perfectly here, but you seem to see it otherwise.
You must have skipped the bit about me working on a new Nids army.
Just wanted to remind people that I had early information regarding this release over a year ago.
Yup, feth this. I don't want my codex broken into pieces and sold to me as goddamn DLC.
That's been the general direction Warhammer 40k has been heading in for awhile. After the Ork and Dark Eldar release I saw the change in the winds and sold off my 6000+ point CSM army and 3000+ point ork armies. Unless your playing a Forgeworld list, that's just the nature of 40k now.
Been kinda getting back into fantasy in all honesty since the end times is actually new content and not repackaged rules that were ripped out of my armybook and sold to me as a separate book. =/
Why the hell would you ever sell an army? If GW releases a gak codex, then you go back and either use a previous one or just go back to playing Third Edition.
There's a tension in terms of rules and flavour between Chaos Space Marines as a generic concept, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions, and the other Traitor Legions.
Each of these is its own thing. Generic Chaos Space Marines can represent any random Space Marine Chapter that has fallen to Chaos over time. The non-cult-specific Traitor Legions each (should) have their own identity just as much as any of the Space Marine Chapters in the current codex, with corresponding special rules to reflect their specialities.
Finally, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions - World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children - need special treatment, I think, to reflect the fact that they originated the four special kinds of Chaos Space Marines. I'd do something to let each Legion use those as troops without paying any kind of special tax - it would just be part of their rules, whereas other Chaos Space Marine armies, even dedicated to the corresponding god, would have to use them as elites. Or something.
You could do all of this in one book, but if they want to split it up, what I'd want to see is something like Codex Chaos Legions and Codex Chaos Traitors.
I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.
Then the new Codex Chaos Space Marines could do sort of the same thing - "Here's your generic Chaos Space Marine force, and here's a special chapter with tactics and characters for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords." That would even be appropriate because a lot of the special units for the other Traitor Legions are either not particularly unique to them (Raptors for the Night Lords, Cultists for the Alpha Legion) or aren't Troops (Vindicators for the Iron Warriors, Dark Apostles for the Word Bearers).
I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.
Well, except there are no "original Legion" World Eaters in 40K after Kharn did his thing.
The biggest, most powerful "World Eater" Chaos Lord is a renegade from a White Scars successor chapter, the most numerous Khorne/Zerker-Warband are former Word Bearers and the most efficient "Berserker-assembly-line" belongs to Abaddon.
They have FW 30K-rules, cause that is where they belong.
Even if a bunch Zerkers would paint their shoulderpads with World Eater iconography in 40K, they wouldn't know gak about the original Legion's tactics, doctrine, etc.. anyhow, and Angrons not about to teach them. Inversely. the original World Eater legion didn't fight side-by-side with Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Cultists and Khornate Skullmowers.
They'd be "World Eaters" in name only, at best. As far as "military tactics" go, they'd be no different in their approach to warfare than any other random Khorne-warband, simply following the guy with the biggest pile of skulls like all of them do.
A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.
Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.
Frozen Ocean wrote: A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.
Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.
Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.
They'd be a bunch of Zerkers chopping heads and charging towards the enemy along with Cultists, Bloodletters and whatever else Khorne throws in there. Whether their original gene-seed is 10.000-year old World Eater stock (rarer than a snowflake in hell) or 100-year old Ultramarine stock (99.999999% of all Khorne/Berserker-armies a 40K (!) Codex must represent) makes little difference.
Neither, for different reasons, has much in common with the Legion under pre-Daemon Angron's command during the Heresy.
the fluff supports SOME world eaters lords fighting like the legions of old, Kharn infact kills one of these lords in his audio book, this same lord wanted to reunite the broken world eaters to attack the imperium.
Kharn killed this guy but it doesn't stop the fact that some lords want this and do fight like the old legion.
mhacdebhandia wrote: There's a tension in terms of rules and flavour between Chaos Space Marines as a generic concept, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions, and the other Traitor Legions.
Each of these is its own thing. Generic Chaos Space Marines can represent any random Space Marine Chapter that has fallen to Chaos over time. The non-cult-specific Traitor Legions each (should) have their own identity just as much as any of the Space Marine Chapters in the current codex, with corresponding special rules to reflect their specialities.
Finally, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions - World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children - need special treatment, I think, to reflect the fact that they originated the four special kinds of Chaos Space Marines. I'd do something to let each Legion use those as troops without paying any kind of special tax - it would just be part of their rules, whereas other Chaos Space Marine armies, even dedicated to the corresponding god, would have to use them as elites. Or something.
You could do all of this in one book, but if they want to split it up, what I'd want to see is something like Codex Chaos Legions and Codex Chaos Traitors.
I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.
Then the new Codex Chaos Space Marines could do sort of the same thing - "Here's your generic Chaos Space Marine force, and here's a special chapter with tactics and characters for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords." That would even be appropriate because a lot of the special units for the other Traitor Legions are either not particularly unique to them (Raptors for the Night Lords, Cultists for the Alpha Legion) or aren't Troops (Vindicators for the Iron Warriors, Dark Apostles for the Word Bearers).
I wouldn't expect cult units to be troops next edition; 7th has taken a lot away, like asm go BA
Formosa wrote: the fluff supports SOME world eaters lords fighting like the legions of old, Kharn infact kills one of these lords in his audio book, this same lord wanted to reunite the broken world eaters to attack the imperium.
Kharn killed this guy but it doesn't stop the fact that some lords want this and do fight like the old legion.
Not saying they don't exist. They just aren't the norm, and for a super-specific scenario like this, you can surely house-rule something or use FW-rules.
The Dark Eldar trilogy ends with a huge Dark Eldar army consisting entirely from corrupted craftworld Wraithconstructs rampaging through Commorrogh. Doesn't mean the Dark Eldar Codex must allow you to field an all-Wraithguard/Wraitthlord army? Likewise, it's not inconceivable that some Orks, Space Marines or whatever run into a 1500 pts. or 2000 pts.-sized "force" consisting entirely of Vespid (frankly, they are almost certainly more numerous than original-Legion-World Eaters). Must the Tau Empire Codex cater to an all-Vespid-army by default because it is conceivable? No.
If super-specific Black Library event and/or possibilities like these inspire you to start an army, you might just have to do with a bit of counts-as, tweaking and house-ruling. At some point, every Codex has to draw the line and stick with the "middle 99.999%" of the Gaussian distribution and leave the extreme exceptions to "unbound", "house-rules", "counts-as" and all the other tools of the super-special-snowflake-fluff-bunnies.
Frozen Ocean wrote: A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.
Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.
Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.
They'd be a bunch of Zerkers chopping heads and charging towards the enemy along with Cultists, Bloodletters and whatever else Khorne throws in there. Whether their original gene-seed is 10.000-year old World Eater stock (rarer than a snowflake in hell) or 100-year old Ultramarine stock (99.999999% of all Khorne/Berserker-armies a 40K (!) Codex must represent) makes little difference.
Neither, for different reasons, has much in common with the Legion under pre-Daemon Angron's command during the Heresy.
Why does it have to have anything to do with the Heresy? Most people, as far as I am aware, who play World Eaters in 40k play them for their, violent, angry, brutal, red-armoured post-Heresy character. They are the original and iconic Chaos Space Marines of Khorne. Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker, and that's what people like them for, and would want to see in a Supplement or whatever (especially if this book is indeed everything Khorne). You keep mentioning the pre-Heresy World Eaters as if people are expecting or desiring pre-Heresy style World Eaters in a Khorne book.
Why does it have to have anything to do with the Heresy? Most people, as far as I am aware, who play World Eaters in 40k play them for their, violent, angry, brutal, red-armoured post-Heresy character. They are the original and iconic Chaos Space Marines of Khorne. Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker, and that's what people like them for, and would want to see in a Supplement or whatever (especially if this book is indeed everything Khorne). You keep mentioning the pre-Heresy World Eaters as if people are expecting or desiring pre-Heresy style World Eaters in a Khorne book.
Because it was said that this "Khorne supplement" should have distinctive and separate rules for "generic" Khorne/Berserker-armies AND "World Eaters" specifically.
If they are synonymous with Khorne Berserkers, they should be well represented with a Khorne-focussed book.
The argument I was disagreeing with, was that World Eaters would NOT be well-represented by a "generic" Berserker/Khorne-focussed army list. While I acknowledged that there ARE probably miniscule differences in the most specific fluff-instances, I doubt these differences would be (a) significant enough and (b) fluff-wise widespread enough to warrant a separate "World Eaters"-legion list in 40K (not 30K) IN ADDITION to an already Berserker-focussed Khorne Codex/List!
mhacdebhandia wrote: "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.
Frankly, even if Angron himself shows up in 40K, given that he likes to hang out with Bloodthirsters and other major Khorne Daemons, his army and entourage would probably be better represented by a Khorne-Daemon-heavy "Khorne-Codex" than a specific World Eater-List that tries to be separate from the former.
If there is a Black Legion SUpplement, and if they make Other legions supplement, then they will make a World eaters supplement that focus on WE, be it as a Legion or on a Warband per Warband iteration.
Now nothing prevents them to make a "All you can mix" Khorne book with Deamons, Zerkers and Cultists in it AND releasing a WE specific book that focus on the WE fluff, rules and journey just like the BL did or even with the CS book.
They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.
Frozen Ocean wrote: They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.
Frozen Ocean wrote: They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.
Didn't you just say the two are synonymous?
Frozen Ocean wrote:Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker
I said "largely" (so not absolutely), and I said "Khorne Berserker", which is a different thing to "Khorne warband". Death Company are not the same as Khorne Berserkers, despite being very similar. Things don't have to be radically different to be different.
I don't even know what you're arguing. Nobody has brought up any suggestions about pre-Heresy style World Eaters except you, so I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. World Eaters (post-Heresy) are the classic Berserkers, but that doesn't make them indistinguishable from all other Khornate Space Marines. It's exactly the same with Plague Marines and the Death Guard, as well as Noise Marines and the Emperor's Children. The Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines are a unique case. There's really no issue with making a generic Khorne book and then having a few special rules or whatever to make them World Eaters. Not a single person suggested that this would, for some strange reason, mean pre-Heresy pre-Khorne World Eaters.
Yeah, all it would need is a world eaters specific warlord traits table and a few relics, maybe some extra weapons for chosen too. That's pretty simple.
Frozen Ocean wrote: There's really no issue with making a generic Khorne book and then having a few special rules or whatever to make them World Eaters. Not a single person suggested that this would, for some strange reason, mean pre-Heresy pre-Khorne World Eaters.
So what would the difference be between a "generic" Khorne warband like those led by Zhufor (ex Storm Lord Chapter) or the Sactified (ex Word Bearers) and a "true" post-Heresy World Eater warband of "pure" World Eater geneseed stock (the one or two that might still be around in 40K against all probability)?
And why would World Eater Berserkers be more deserving of a special rule than ... say .. Black Legion Berserkers, which are vastly more numerous and more commonly encountered in 40K, thanks to Abaddon still actively creating these guys in large numbers?
Formosa wrote: Yeah, all it would need is a world eaters specific warlord traits table and a few relics, maybe some extra weapons for chosen too. That's pretty simple.
What's a "World Eater" and what is a "generic" Khorne Warband Warlord Trait and/or relic
WL-Trait of chopping moar skulls: Warlord and his unit get D3 attacks on the charge - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
WL-Trait of getting to the skulls fasta: Every unit in 12" of Warlord can re-roll charge ranges - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
Choppy Chainsword of Khorne: AP3 Instant Death Chainsword - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
Skull Helm of the Skull God: Warlord gets Rampage and causes Fear - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
Please somebody explain me why and where there would be thematic differences?
ClockworkZion wrote: So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.
ClockworkZion wrote: So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.
via Steve the Warboss
LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas
SALT!!!
I wouldn't get too excited about it. First they said "maybe" and then I saw a comment after I made that post claiming the list was wrong and they'd be relaying a more accurate one later in the week once they confirmed things.
ClockworkZion wrote: So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.
via Steve the Warboss
LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas
SALT!!!
You could put that part of the rumor into a salt mine and it wouldn't be seasoned properly yet unless we're talking about a simple rehash with no new units/models/effort/skill.
The problem with chaos is that there are so many varieties to chaos. There are renegades, the different legion adherent warbands, and the former legion marines who want to strike out entirely on their own; then you have the big 4 chaos gods and then you have a couple of interpretations undivided. If you include all of those things in a single book you have a codex that relative to other codices is oversized and filled with a varied specificity that exceeds other codices.
FW's Horus Heresy series is great and it'd be amazing if GW took that approach with 40k to build a more cohesive interpretation of the setting that allows for a high degree of representation. Short of that approach C:CSM has to strike a balance and accept a representation that only goes so far. GW unlike FW wants to leave room for interpretation and that dictates something much more generic.
If you consider the 3 most basic types of chaos marines, renegades, the different legion adherent warbands, and the former legion marines who want to strike out entirely on their own; renegades are half of all chaos marines, and approximately a quarter are of each of the other two categories. GW insists the codex represents Renegades but without anything to represent their former loyalist roots and without rules representing legion adherent warbands this codex barely represents a quarter of all Chaos marines. To broaden what this codex actually does means at least touching on Legions but as a matter of proportionality having something significant that addresses what distinguish Renegades from the rest.
The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.
Really well-put.
I think that holds true to many codexes, and that, while the 3.5 codexes were hardly perfect, they had the right philosophy.
Realistically, my ideal Codex: CSM would basically be 3.5 with cult troops closer to the current standard of rules (i.e. they were a little simplistic by the current iteration's standards), and updated armies, not such an absurd amount of gear or some limitations on it, and a couple entries equivalent to the 2-page legion entries, for renegades (generic)/red corsairs, and maybe another for a truncated lost and the damned list.
Considering they did it before with less space then and even had the (then much shorter) daemon list before, I don't think it would that absurd to say that it'd be achievable.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.
Agreed. Try to appeal to everyone and you end up appealing to no-one.
The CSM had always needed to be AT LEAST as big as the Loyalist dex (which is by far the largest codex and has been for years) if it wants to properly represent all the factions CSM can bring.
The only group you could say the codex represents is that small fraction of former Legionaries that want nothing to do with their respective Legion.
Roughly half of Chaos marines are Renegade former loyalist chapters, the other half are former legionaries but of those former legionaries only half of those or a quarter of all Chaos marines want anything to do with their former legion.
While I think the average chaos player would prefer chaos legionaries I think it'd atleast be more palatable to them if GW's attempt at Renegades was a sincere attempt to represent them.
I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).
It makes sense and it drives me nuts thinking about why GW want to squeeze every penny with unpopular ideas, when making specific god books would practically be printing money!
In the current meta, I find our current codex to be fine. It just needs more umph. It was a bit odd at first when we really didn't get more powerful when this codex first dropped, but now it's apparent that they were merely the first step in balancing the game out. What we are lacking are flavorful, fun units. We get a tease at every form of potential, from Dark Mech to Thousand Sons. But where's the bits that let us field a fluffy army full of said things? I really am hoping for more things like Kharn's new formation. Supplement books full of such things would be beautiful, wicked things. I feel like Chaos and Orks are badly in need of supplements to offer us more ways to play, as they're both limited in focus. Getting cultists was the best thing to happen to us because our troops are laughable at current, but that's more of a marines in general type of thing.
Rippy wrote: I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).
Except, some of us want a stripped down, streamlined Codex, like we had in 3E.
(Actually, we want hyper-streamlined lists a la the 3E rulebook).
It would be impossible to reconcile this kind of difference in goals.
OT, are legions like the Deathguard really that diverse that they need their own section in a codex? I am not super knowledgeable on their fluff, but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?
Am genuinely curious what you guys would want to see in an expanded CSM book, not trying to flame.
jreilly89 wrote: OT, are legions like the Deathguard really that diverse that they need their own section in a codex? I am not super knowledgeable on their fluff, but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?
Am genuinely curious what you guys would want to see in an expanded CSM book, not trying to flame.
if you take a look at the HHFW books and how they do the legions, they get special traits just like chapter tactics that are army wide. certain HQ options bring otehr bonus', you also get legion specific wargear. so in the case of thousand sons, you might be looking at all units having AP3 bolt weapons. Emporers Children gain a boost to Initiave, and have wargear that decrease the I of opponents in CC. the way they are done there is a dreamland for how both CSM and SM codex's could and SHOULD be written..
jreilly89 wrote: ... but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?
Plague Terminators.
Plague Havocs.
Nurgle-Dedicated Vehicles.
Old HH units translated into the modern era.
You can't just represent Death Guard with a few Plague Marine Squads and a green Lord.
What I'm saying is that, as the guy above me posted, some of that seems it could be fixed with "Traitor Tactics" or something like that. Would that be preferable, or would you really want unique Terminators and Havocs for each god?
I'd want a 3.5-style Mark system that continued a singular set of rules that governed the use of Marks. Apply a Mark of Slaanesh to a unit, and it goes from being a unit of Havocs to a unit of Noise Marine Havocs, with new options (and perhaps restrictions) based upon the rules of the Mark.
On another minor side note, if they do keep Chaos boon table, or at least apotheosis of some form, I would love for DPs to keep their current war gear.
I really hope that we get four weeks of god releases in WD at the very least. Give me Plague Terminators, would defz be buying my first termies!
There's one problem with the 4 books aproach, namely that even all the faction's demons and cult troops packed together would still make for a comparably small codex, unless you stuff it with Forgeworld units. This is not that implausible, if the rumors about cult terminators are true (forge allready has khornate termis, so why not?).
What I think would be reasonable is a 3-book approach.
* Ruinous Powers - Cult troops, Demons. Playable as the dedicated legions, pure demonic or any mixture of those.
* Traitor Legions - Non-Cult Legions and recent traitor space marines.
* Lost and the damned - the usual rabble of renegade militia, mutants and the like.
Wonderwolf wrote: Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.
I'm not that concerned about whether or not 40K Traitor Legions still fight like 30K Legions did. After all, my favourite is the Thousand Sons, and literally all of their marines except the Sorcerers are dead. They haven't been "Thousand Sons" in the Legion sense since the Rubric.
I was mostly making the point that the four classic specialist troop types ought to be, if not restricted to those four god-specific Traitor Legions, at least way more common in them.
(Though, again, I don't know where other Traitor Chapters, even those dedicated to Tzeentch, are supposed to be getting Rubricae . . . on loan? I guess.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wonderwolf wrote: Because it was said that this "Khorne supplement" should have distinctive and separate rules for "generic" Khorne/Berserker-armies AND "World Eaters" specifically.
No, I actually suggested something that would be described more as "generic Khorne" armies on the one hand and "Berzerker/World Eater" on the other.
Basically, if it were up to me, Berzerkers, Rubricae, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines would only be available to their associated Legions. Let the others flavour themselves with their gods by taking Daemon allies!
Rippy wrote: I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).
Except, some of us want a stripped down, streamlined Codex, like we had in 3E.
(Actually, we want hyper-streamlined lists a la the 3E rulebook).
It would be impossible to reconcile this kind of difference in goals.
You're right, I'd want the exact opposite.
Out of curiosity, who here wants a stripped down dex and who here would want one more like the 3.5 in terms of fluff and variety?
MWHistorian wrote: Out of curiosity, who here wants a stripped down dex and who here would want one more like the 3.5 in terms of fluff and variety?
Definitely do not want stripped down. Setting aside GWs inability to make something half decent, I'd much rather a larger book with more comprehensive, customizable options to more accurately represent different aspects of chaos on the tabletop in a fun and effective way. The SM book was substantially larger than others, I don't see why CSM can't get a large one too.
Just wanted to remind people that I had early information regarding this release over a year ago.
Oh yeah, I remember this rumor making the rounds...too bad it ended up being true for the wrong game. All four "Tomes of" books have been released for a while now, just for the Black Crusade RPG by Fantasy Flight.
Like I said before, so many early rumors have kernals of truth to them, but they are often misinterpreted.
For all the talk of rules, and is important, people are usually robbed or disappointed.
No matter what the strategy or the changes I look forward to God specific/ Cult Marine specific mini's and parts/upgrades/rules.
If it takes supplemental books to get there, I don't really mind, I'm not gaming, but collecting and painting.
Chaos has more layers to it than most, and all are undeserved.
-Legions, other than those already supplemented, lack much diversity or uniqueness. You can't do much special with them, and the add-ons either cost a little too much or literally don't have a model.
-Cult marines are 4 God specific troop or elite choices that cost a fortune, in game, and to your pocket. Only 'zerkers are a plastic kit, and it's ancient. Plague marines are popular, but the choices to build them are limited, Thousand sons have a wonderful aesthetic but they are lumbering slow and points heavy, and Noise Marines are amazing looking when done right, but they need more diversity also.
I would like plastic kits for all, and upgrade parts, or kits for Terminators, Havocs hopefully, and Vehicle upgrades or specific units.
Iron Hands Basilisk was a wonderful dream when I was first turned on to Chaos circa 99...
-Cultists are still the mono-pose of the Dark Vengeance box. With their meat shield and lot's of shooting people love them. They help. But God/ Legion/ Warband specific upgrades for a plastic kit? Yes Please.
-Unbound is also so vast and varied that it deserves some love. Same with the Fallen.
-Renegades also need some GW love. FW only upgrades and some book specific rules you have to postal order, and then get your friends to agree on... any Chaos player should be able to field some F'd up Guard of their own as another meat shield. A significant ally and always present part of their actions.
-I'm not fond of Daemons, but they get very little love. Same models for years. If there truly is hordes of God specific foul things, then we need more. Greater Daemons and a few small ones isn't the same. But also, maybe a way of toning down spawn-swarm spam may not ingratiate you as a player. I certainly can't imagine painting hundreds of JUST bloodthirsters or any other.
Just my 2 cents. I want better models, and rules that help sell a more coherent Chaos force that can stand up to other armies.
Vehicles and corrupted machines that also fit the Daemonic force from within aesthetic, and not machine in the shape of a monster, also should be the way of things.
What I really want (and why I'm holding onto $150 from Christmas as a gift) is for new models to be made. I'm holding on to the money in the hope that either new troops or chosen kits will be made in plastic for Chaos Space Marines.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.
As far as the Imperium is concerned, all SMs are basically the same. That's why the Inquisition checks up on them to ensure conformity with the Codex, in all ways. That's what all of the Successors signed on for at the time of the Second Founding, and the Inquisition should expect them all to keep their word, with Exterminatus being the accepted and understood penalty for any significant variance.
Given that 30k appears to have the Legions well in hand, why shouldn't 40k be as you suggest, with an Ultras model for all SMs, and minimal, marginal variance for DAs or BAs or SWs?
30k lets GW have it both ways for those who want high-chrome Legions and those who want streamlined post-Legion Marines.
And besides, what SM player wouldn't be proud to pay GW an extra $50 to get their dataslate of defining Special Characters backed by 2 pages of Chapter rules?
So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.
The fraction of Chaos Marines that remain adherent to their Legion is relatively small compared to Renegades and the non-adherent former legionaries. Distinguishing Legions and supporting them is important but I think given the proportion of chaos marines it's slightly more important they get Renegade marines right. The current codex only really represents the former legionnaires that want nothing to do with their legion and the renegades who might associate closest to them. It provides no avenue for representing legions or the majority of renegades. It's a shame GW has chosen the least characterful chaos marines to represent and a bigger shame that they think they're representing everything.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Actually, don't work for GW, they need as many customers like you as they can get.
Go re-read my sig. I already own what is likely to be a lifetime worth of GW product. Until I clear the my Closet of Shame backlog (and I'm working on it!), GW won't get another penny out of me, no matter how good their models are.
In the mean time, I need GW to soak the fething gak out of guys like you so that they can stay in business while I whittle away at my to-do pile.
Tho, if they do go belly up, it's not like I don't have several GW rulebooks and Codices to choose from.
Fine, I'll make the point very simply - I currently own roughly 25,000 points of 40k Eldar, Guard, SM/CSMs and other Imperials. As above, I think that's plenty enough playable stuff for the indefinite foreseeable future.
I think a "guy like you" is someone who is still currently buying things, rather than sitting on a pile of stuff that they have already bought. I also think that a "guy like you" is someone who would do well to get a thicker skin.
____
edit - I recounted - it could be closer to 30,000 pts. Oops.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Golf is cheaper then 40k.
Having dabbled in golf, I think that to be a highly-debatable point. 40k doesn't cost money to practice. I don't buy a bucket of one-use dice when I want to play, or pay a greens fee when I sit down to play with my friends. Even considering my share of beer and snacks, it's invariably less than a short round of 9 holes. OTOH, golf does have the advantage of only buying one set of clubs at a time. It's not like I bought multiple sets of clubs to use, depending on who I was playing with.
I do think it's easier to play 40k if you're not rich, even if you're limited to the starter set armies since 4E (SM, DA, BA, Orks, Nids, CSM).
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Golf doesn't need FAQs or constant new purchases. Hell, my collection could probably fund my golf stuff.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Fine, I'll make the point very simply - I currently own roughly 25,000 points of 40k Eldar, Guard, SM/CSMs and other Imperials. As above, I think that's plenty enough playable stuff for the indefinite foreseeable future.
I think a "guy like you" is someone who is still currently buying things, rather than sitting on a pile of stuff that they have already bought. I also think that a "guy like you" is someone who would do well to get a thicker skin.
____
edit - I recounted - it could be closer to 30,000 pts. Oops.
Yeah, well, I have bigger man parts, my dad could beat your dad in a fight, my car is faster than yours (and more manly.)
Additionally, "this" guy seldom buys anything from GW, and hasn't in some time, because "this" guy does have an immensely masculine pile of miniatures to work through (plenty of which bear not the Citadel or GW stamp of overpriced mediocrity) tries to support third party wherever possible and has interests in games that lie outside of GW. "This" guy has been involved with the Warhammer universe since RT, so would appreciate it if you'd stop talking to him like some sort of noob (and acting as if that gives you either any sort of meaningful seniority or superiority.)
Additionally "this" guy would like to suggest that "that" guy doesn't interpret gentle, harmless ribbing as some sort of oversensitivity, and instead looks to himself first when throwing around accusations of thin skin.
EDIT
Did I mention the bit about a bigger penis? Ah yes, I did!
No, there's just no word for the level I've reached.
At least not that you'd understand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, seriously, while I enjoy pricking pomposity wherever it appears, can I make a sincere plea to re-focus on topic?
I like CSM, and at least we're still in the Schrödinger's Codex stage where the next update is good.
Ah, right, the topic. I want the new CSM codex to be like the old one, only better. More specifically by rectifying perceived deficits in the codex, and, ahh... by altering unit entries to better reflect their costs and you know, to be grimmer and more chaos-y. Yes, chaos-y is a term. These are the things I wish for. And I can most certainly assure you I know precisely what I am talking about and am not clueless on this topic, scouts honour.
Before we get back on track, I need to post this for the dick waving contest.
Wot dah feth 'id you just fething sayz 'bout me, 'ou little grot? I’ll 'ave you roight know I gradujated top of dah Klan in the WHAAAGH! Deff Skulls, 'n I’ve 'in involed 'n lotz sekret WHAAGHS! on dah 'Umies, 'n I 'ave oer' tree hundred gits on mah pole. I kopeed beakie warfare 'n I’m dah top krumper n' dah entire Klan. Youz ar nuttin to me but just 'nother git dat needz krumpin'. I'll stomp you dah gak out 'ith strength dah 'ikes o which ad nevah 'een seen before on dah Gorkin' planet, mark my fething words. You think you can get away with saying that gak to me over the Internet? Think again, fether. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for dah storm, yeh stupid 'umie grit. Dah krumpin' and shootin' storm dat wipes out dah pathetik 'ittle ting you call yer yerself. Yer Morkin dead, git, I kan be anywere, anytime (kuz I'm sneeky like dat), 'n I can krump or shoot yah n 'oer seven 'undred wayz, and dats just 'ith mah bear hands. Not on' am I ektsenseevely trained in choppa-less krumpin', but I 'ave akess to dah entire gear of dah WHAAAAAGH!, 'n I'll yuse it to dah full ektent tah krump yer stoopid teef off dah face of dah land, yeh 'ittle squig. If onlee yeh kud 'ave known wut unorky krumpin yer ittle “klever” coment wuz 'bout tah bring down 'pon yeh, yuh wud 'ave held yer Morkin grot tongue. But ye kudn't, yu didn’t, 'n now yer paying dah price, 'ou squig-herdin idiot. I'll shed spores 'o fury all oer' you 'n you'll drown in et. Yer roight n bloody dead, yeh git.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Yeah except you can't download golf clubs. I don't have a whole lot of money to spend on it and I still avidly play 40K. Deal with it.
Azreal13 wrote: So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?
Do you work for GW?
If they don't already have the earlier CSM Codices to play from, yes. Yes, they should pay full FW MSRP to get what they want in all its glory.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
Yeah except you can't download golf clubs. I don't have a whole lot of money to spend on it and I still avidly play 40K. Deal with it.
No, but I can think of several things to do with golf clubs I can't with 40k models (well, except maybe the metal LRs or the metal GUOs)
Nightlord1987 wrote: Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.
As far as the Imperium is concerned, all SMs are basically the same. That's why the Inquisition checks up on them to ensure conformity with the Codex, in all ways. That's what all of the Successors signed on for at the time of the Second Founding, and the Inquisition should expect them all to keep their word, with Exterminatus being the accepted and understood penalty for any significant variance.
Given that 30k appears to have the Legions well in hand, why shouldn't 40k be as you suggest, with an Ultras model for all SMs, and minimal, marginal variance for DAs or BAs or SWs?
30k lets GW have it both ways for those who want high-chrome Legions and those who want streamlined post-Legion Marines.
And besides, what SM player wouldn't be proud to pay GW an extra $50 to get their dataslate of defining Special Characters backed by 2 pages of Chapter rules?
The Codex was drawn up by Roboat not the Inquisition and I am quite sure The Sons Of Russ have not been using it from the beginning So Exterminatus is not a penalty for that particular infraction just Genetic abnormalities. wait...
I'm taking these rumours with a lot of salt. A lot of salt.
Since, you know, the whole Cult Marine thing has been a thing since 2nd edition.
I mean, I'm all for the codex getting looked at and brought up to 7th ed. standards but this...ugh.
I really hope they don't go down the WD Exclusive Cult line....because that would be a terrible and sloppy idea. Not everyone wants to buy WD to field an army and what happens if you decide you want to go for that army 7-8 months down the line?
They've been really strange so far. First they do the 'decent' thing and put the new/revised Tyranid stuff up for free....
Then they go back to scumbag Steve WD exclusive Blood Angel formations....
But to take away what has been part of an army's core identity for 20+ years? Ew. No. No thank you. It's like them announcing there will no longer be Deathwing or Ravenwing in the Dark Angel codex or that there will no longer be Aspect Warriors in the Eldar codex.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.
As far as the Imperium is concerned, all SMs are basically the same. That's why the Inquisition checks up on them to ensure conformity with the Codex, in all ways. That's what all of the Successors signed on for at the time of the Second Founding, and the Inquisition should expect them all to keep their word, with Exterminatus being the accepted and understood penalty for any significant variance.
Given that 30k appears to have the Legions well in hand, why shouldn't 40k be as you suggest, with an Ultras model for all SMs, and minimal, marginal variance for DAs or BAs or SWs?
30k lets GW have it both ways for those who want high-chrome Legions and those who want streamlined post-Legion Marines.
And besides, what SM player wouldn't be proud to pay GW an extra $50 to get their dataslate of defining Special Characters backed by 2 pages of Chapter rules?
The Codex was drawn up by Roboat not the Inquisition and I am quite sure The Sons Of Russ have not been using it from the beginning So Exterminatus is not a penalty for that particular infraction just Genetic abnormalities. wait...
Roboute drew up the Codex, but the Inquisition enforces it on those Chapters that don't have very strong support in the shadows to allow variances. The Space Wolves are lucky to be so tolerated. Were their genetic flaws and other issues ever to become broadly known within the Inquisition, they would undoubtedly be purged.
I see the GW Hobby as an expensive luxury not at all unlike golf. If you can't afford it, don't play.
I think that's how GW see themselves when they're actually a niche market. A luxury item is something that the masses aspire to having but may never get. GW is a niche within a niche market, there are no masses involved. The average person does not aspire to owning a table load of plastic and resin soldiers, let alone ones from the universes that GW deals in. Upsetting large segments of your niche market by treating them as stupid addicts will rapidly shut down word of mouth communication about your product - which seems to be how they advertise because I've never seen an ad for anything GW related outside of GW itself.
If GW were like golf, then it would allow any manufactured minis so long as they met certain specifications. You don't have the international golf body restricting golfers to an inhouse brand of golf clubs and balls. If GW were like golf then any company could produce space marines armed with weapons that looked like GWs offerings and they'd be legal to use in tournaments and legal to sell using 40k terms like terminator squad, devastator squad. Obviously GW is nothing like golf other than both being games.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.
As far as the Imperium is concerned, all SMs are basically the same. That's why the Inquisition checks up on them to ensure conformity with the Codex, in all ways. That's what all of the Successors signed on for at the time of the Second Founding, and the Inquisition should expect them all to keep their word, with Exterminatus being the accepted and understood penalty for any significant variance.
Given that 30k appears to have the Legions well in hand, why shouldn't 40k be as you suggest, with an Ultras model for all SMs, and minimal, marginal variance for DAs or BAs or SWs?
30k lets GW have it both ways for those who want high-chrome Legions and those who want streamlined post-Legion Marines.
And besides, what SM player wouldn't be proud to pay GW an extra $50 to get their dataslate of defining Special Characters backed by 2 pages of Chapter rules?
The Codex was drawn up by Roboat not the Inquisition and I am quite sure The Sons Of Russ have not been using it from the beginning So Exterminatus is not a penalty for that particular infraction just Genetic abnormalities. wait...
Roboute drew up the Codex, but the Inquisition enforces it on those Chapters that don't have very strong support in the shadows to allow variances. The Space Wolves are lucky to be so tolerated. Were their genetic flaws and other issues ever to become broadly known within the Inquisition, they would undoubtedly be purged.
Tell that to the Inquisitorial ship Logan blew out of the sky for trying.
Probably for the reason given in the post you refer to: people have to ask why the iquisitors dont go after the wolves, or what would happen if they did. The answer have to be over the top.
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