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Post by: edlowe
Hi guys didn't see a thread already for this
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/barbarian-hordes-by-red-box-games
Hello again kickstarter! Red box Games is back again to fund the production of a new set of figures intended to finalize the Helsvakt hordes with the most requested units from the very dedicated and much appreciated fans of Red Box Games. First on offer are the . These 5 figures can be selected individually or as a themed set.
Pictured here as works in progress............
So to begin the campaign I offer The Chosen: Armoured Elite Hordesmen the elite corps of Hel's army of marauding murderous lunatics. these are the men who heeded her mad cry for blood and fury, wandered into the northern wastes, survived it's perils and scaled the great Mountain of Madness to bear her blessing and carry her vengeance out into the world. These are the mightiest of her warriors who have survived multiple campaigns and multiple proving battles. They are inhumanly strong and resilient. As ruthless as a rabid beast and equally fearsome. They bear no mercy in their hearts and no love for man or woman, kith or kin. They live for battle and carnage. Maniacs and marauders. Behold and tremble......
MATERIALS.....................................Each of these figures are cast in high quality, lead free, white metal and is supplied with a 25 mm round plastic base. The figures may or may not be cast in a single piece as determined to be most efficient for moldmaking and casting purposes. I do try to keep my figures single piece as often as possible and whenever necessary I do try to be sure that my multi-part figures are easily assembled.
The figures are built in a true 32 mm scale which means that the armature for an average sized human male would stand 32 mm tall from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head with both feet together and back straight. This typically puts the eye level of the unposed human male figure at 28 mm high. The pose can drastically effect the final height of the figure as the lengths of the bones and flex points of the miniature do not change during the posing process.
The proportions of my figure tend to be much more idealized than what you might typically find in other miniature ranges which means that the heads and hands are more appropriately sized to real life proportions. Humans are typically 7 " heads " tall while dwarves are more typically 4 to 5 heads tall, and elves would be 6 heads tall.
The Helsvakt like the Njorn are a special breed of human. They are superhumanly strong and tough by their exposure to the magics of the Sorceress Hel. This is reflected in their stature and physical heft / girth. They are slightly taller than normal humans ( between 35 and 38 mm tall unposed ) and thicker as well. their proportions are still measured by the same rubric but the overall effect is slightly comic book like.
I find most of my artistic influences for the helsvakt between the likes Frank Frazetta, Paul Bonner, and Joe Madrueira. I love Frazetta's approach to pose and gesture and Paul Bonner's incredibly realistic detail and Joe Mad's overall stylization and energy. As for the design themes of the Helsvakt I look to the icons of evil barbarians in popular fiction and film from my child hood. The Jun horde from beastmaster......probably the formative image of an evil barbarian horde for me, and the riders of Doom from Conan the Barbarian. Warduke.....one of my most beloved toys as a kid........... Brom's warriors of the Dark Sun world........and probably hundreds of other images that all run to one big ball of spikey, battered metal, torn leather, tattered pelts, chains, closed helms, horns, and bone trinkets. You know the stuff of medieval nightmares. All good fun.
GOALS...............................My ambition for this kickstarter campaign is to fund the creation and production and distribution of the final sets needed to " finish " the HelsVakt range of miniatures within the RBG fantasy world. I have already funded through a recent KS campaign a set of semi modular rank and file troops, the Hordesmen, along with a set of murderous archer / assassins called the Craven, and a group of a few Heroes of reknown withint he HelsVakt Army, Hakar the Horrible, Bloody Garm, Valda the Black hearted, and Svartulf the Savage.
NOW I want to fund the the expansion of the army with in no particular order.......
5 armoured elite warriors.
Leader, horn blower, standard bearer elites
4 female warriors.
BERSERKERS 4 new berserkers
4 new ranged helsvakt warriors
HELSRIDERS 4 new mounted warrior elites
Very ambitious I know but I am up for the challenge and ready to make my best efforts. My most recent Kickstarter funded 24 figures in 30 days and of those 24 figures I sculpted 18 of them over the course of the 30 day campaign and the original 6 I had sculpted over the course of the week prior to the launch of the campaign. I can do this. The giants and Mounted elites will probably take a while to complete but I am confident I can have all funded figures sculpted within 30 days of the close of the KS.
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Post by: primalexile
Why metal and not true resin...
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Post by: Binabik15
18 guys in a month while running a KS. Damn.
Berserkers and female warriors sounds ace, but I have way too much stuff on my plate right now :(
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Post by: Da Boss
I believe that Tre can sculpt that fast- the progression on last KS before this one was really quick!
I'm not really into the Helsvakt, so I might sit this one out. But if the Jotun look good or if the Helsmaidens are fantastic I might be tempted to dip my toe in.
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Post by: RiTides
primalexile - The horse and rider are going to be resin, if that is of interest to you!
Da Boss - I agree, while I'm not in need of Helsvakt, I'm seriously tempted to back this for the Jotunn. Right now it just looks like an armature but once I see more, that will likely get me in here 
Edit: Went ahead and put in a placeholder pledge for when the Jotunn unlocks  . Will up it once the cost is known, etc, since it is the stretch goal after the current one (the horse and rider).
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Post by: Alpharius
While I'm really looking forward to Tre's NEXT Kickstarter, I could see myself getting a Jotunn or two, once lthey unlock!
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
More Helsvakt for me then, if you guys aren't picking them up!
I'm liking how those Chosen are shaping up.
I really enjoy painting Tre's stuff. Problem is, I still haven't figured out how to base the guys I got in the last two KS campaigns yet, and they're languishing in a half- finished state!
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Post by: Prestor Jon
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:More Helsvakt for me then, if you guys aren't picking them up!
I'm liking how those Chosen are shaping up.
I really enjoy painting Tre's stuff. Problem is, I still haven't figured out how to base the guys I got in the last two KS campaigns yet, and they're languishing in a half- finished state!
Did you leave them on the 25mm rounds? The wide stance poses kinda make me want to put them on 32mm round bases instead but then I'm still not sure what game I'm going to use them in and I don't want to have to rebase them. Mine are still about 2/3rds finished with the bases still bare plastic.
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks for postign this Edlowe! And thanks everybody for the support, encouragement, and enthusiasm!
For those nto really interested in the Helsvakt I am planning on introducing at least one hero out to hunt them down and slay them all. Not to mention if this current rate keeps up we will be running out of planned ideas for the Helsvakt and getting in to other factions by the end of the campaign.
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Post by: corgan
Prestor Jon wrote: highlord tamburlaine wrote:More Helsvakt for me then, if you guys aren't picking them up!
I'm liking how those Chosen are shaping up.
I really enjoy painting Tre's stuff. Problem is, I still haven't figured out how to base the guys I got in the last two KS campaigns yet, and they're languishing in a half- finished state!
Did you leave them on the 25mm rounds? The wide stance poses kinda make me want to put them on 32mm round bases instead but then I'm still not sure what game I'm going to use them in and I don't want to have to rebase them. Mine are still about 2/3rds finished with the bases still bare plastic.
This is a good point! Maybe Tre could help us out in this.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
A 32mm round might work. I know one of the champion dudes from the Barbarian Hordes (with the mace over his shoulder) has his legs splayed out REALLY wide. He seems like he fits a 25mm square across diagonally.
I guess I could cheat and just keep him on his original round, slap a piece of "rock" on top of it and be done with it.
Should we assume that this new hero shall have gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, and be able to tread the jeweled thrones under his sandled feet?
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Post by: Trodax
I'm totally in on this, I love the Helsvakt. I'm also really intrigued by how the Jotunn will turn out. Not to mention that melancholically mirthy sullen-eyed dude.
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Post by: monkeytroll
Well, I really should resist another KS....but, hell no, I want me some Helsmaidens 
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Post by: Wehrkind
Yea, I will be in for Helsmaidens, should some finished sculpts pop up before it is over.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
 Wehrkind wrote:Yea, I will be in for Helsmaidens, should some finished sculpts pop up before it is over.
Helsmaiden WIPs are posted on the KS now and Tre says they'll be done in a couple days.
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Post by: tre manor
yep they are a big priority!
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Post by: Wehrkind
Glad to hear it!
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Post by: Binabik15
Those girls are rather large-chested compared to first KS Yrsa. Hmh. I likeher better.
Now:
How to you work so fast?! Besides experience and knowing what works regarding volumes and poses, of course. I have to do an armature, then cover it with two part epoxy putty and put my FIMO (or Cernit,but that can have weird sharp "sand" pieces manifest themselves while baking?!, so I use less) over that and wait till the putty is hardened before working on the FIMO. Do you glue whatever not- self hardening putty you use onto the armature and that black putty or what, if I may ask. And the amazing cloth you're knocking out, I can hardly get decent flowing cloth at all (that's part of why I do mostly naked monsters instead of humans), let alone several pieces on multiple models in a day.
If the Berserkers get non-wide stanced poses you'll have my money even though I want to stop buying minis for a while.
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Binabik.
The speed is mostly knowing what works and doesn't and beign a bit obsessive about the process. I have practiced and praticed to the point that I fidn it difficult to take my time with a project. I try nto to work in thin layers as that can SERIOUSLY complicate things.
Right now I use a two part epoxy putty called ProCreate mixed with another 2P called Aves Apoxie sculpt. The aves softens the Procreate without interfering with it's rubber liek qualities once it begins to set. those qualities help my process.
The aves DOES speed up the set time and that also contributes to the speed. I only have so much time to get things done so i do nto waste any motions.
Cloth.......that can be a bit more dynamic in process. Sometimes I have to use different methods depending on the sculpt.
I have been considering producing a How-To video series.
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Post by: Wehrkind
I'd appreciate a how to series Although if I could bug you for perhaps a text accompaniment, I would like that as well. I read and think a LOT faster than most people talk, especially when they are doing a video, so videos are really hard to me to watch and really learn from unless they move quickly.
Learning to half sculpt would be really fun though! Automatically Appended Next Post: (I say "half sculpt" because I don't expect to get as good as you by any number of videos combined with the limited time I can apply to it )
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Post by: Yodhrin
 tre manor wrote: Thanks Binabik.
The speed is mostly knowing what works and doesn't and beign a bit obsessive about the process. I have practiced and praticed to the point that I fidn it difficult to take my time with a project. I try nto to work in thin layers as that can SERIOUSLY complicate things.
Right now I use a two part epoxy putty called ProCreate mixed with another 2P called Aves Apoxie sculpt. The aves softens the Procreate without interfering with it's rubber liek qualities once it begins to set. those qualities help my process.
The aves DOES speed up the set time and that also contributes to the speed. I only have so much time to get things done so i do nto waste any motions.
Cloth.......that can be a bit more dynamic in process. Sometimes I have to use different methods depending on the sculpt.
I have been considering producing a How-To video series.
Oh interesting, I'd assumed you were using a polymer clay. I could never get ProCreate to play nice with varied mixes in the same way green stuff can, but try making the ProCreate equivalent of a very high yellow-content GS mix before you mix in the Apoxie, I've found that mixture(1/3 high-yellow GS to 2/3 even mix Apoxy) actually remains workable for a lot longer than either GS or Apoxie alone. Oh, and a how-to would be very cool, I'd love to see you do a Miniature Mentor-style video going from armature to finished model with commentary as you work.
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Post by: tre manor
That si basically what I am thinking. Interspersed with additional commentary explaining my process and thoughts a little deeper.
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Post by: edlowe
I'd definitely be interesting in the sculpting dvd, I'm sure it would be hugely popular.
new pic from the latest update
Hey everybody!
Sorry for the lateness of today's update. I had planned to get more work done today but I lost 2.5 hours after having to tear off the Jotunn's anatomy when the putty hardened before I was able to finish detailing it properly. So I ended up sculpting it twice effectively. BUT the anatomy is done now and the Jotunn will be ready for the addition of the armor and costume layers tomorrow. I will also be working on the Helsrider Horse tomorrow as well.
I also have the updated progress of the helsmaidens as well. I know this i going a little slower than I had hoped as well but the tiny little details on the chosen's armor and the Helsmaiden's armour is taking a little more time than anticipated. I promise though I will be done with them by Wednsday evening. In the meantime however I will still be working on the other planned projects for this campaign and I will be posting daily updates as the campaign progresses.
Again I am ALWAYS open to suggestions and criticisms so please feel free.
Cheers,
Tre'
The giant certainly looks like it'll be an awesome sculpt, I believe that its two to a rank in pledge terms.
Heres some more wip from the previous updates
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Post by: edlowe
Some more updated pics from the latest update
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Post by: Da Butcha
Man, that Jotunn looks coooool. I have most of your dwarves and he would look epic fighting them!
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Post by: Alpharius
So Jotunns are definitely in then?
Nice!
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
You guys can have your giants, I want me more spiky heavy metal van panel Frazetta warriors.
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Post by: edlowe
Probably should have posted this info as well from the last update about the jotunn and helriders weapons.
hey everybody!
Well here is a ntoher update of the Helsrider and Jotunn for you all. I have settled ont he face / head for the Jotunn and I am very very happy with it thus far. I will be adding a bit of a forehead nodule above his brow and his left ear as well but otherwise the head is complete. He will be wielding a chain in his right hand connected to a manacle aroudn his right wrist, and his left hand will be covered by a spiked sheet of metal. All of those little balls hanging from rings and chains will be Skull trophies. His feet will be wrapped in leather strips.....or at least one of them will be.
.
Teh Helsrider is also movign right along. Here I have begun the under layer of his armour and attached the first layer of his shield. His weapon will be a flail and he will wear a fur cloak and closed helm, and a very special back adornment which I do not want to spoil until I know i can make it work. hope you all like the progress thus far and be lookign out for the first WIPs of the Berserkers this evening / tonight.
Cheers,
Tre'
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Post by: Wehrkind
That is a pimpin' jotun! Loving it!
The horseman is also off to a really great start.
I need to start lining up some Johns...
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Post by: Darth Bob
These models look really cool. Going to wait a bit before I decide if I want to pledge, but if the models keep looking like this it's probably a strong possibility!
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Post by: Da Boss
Damn, I think I will have to get in on this after all. That Jotun is really great.
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Post by: Wehrkind
I want a camera attached to Tre's head so we can see what he is working on at any given instant. These updates just don't come quickly enough for me.
Can we have a KS for that? Just a little camera installed in Tre's left temple? I'd be ok if it had a lens cap for when he needs to shower and the like.
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Post by: tre manor
hah hah hah Wouldn't that be fun!
I just posted another update earlier. I had THOUGHT I was going to be out of the house all day today but it turns out that will be Friday so I am back at the sculpting table doign my best to get those Chosen and Helsmaidens wrapped up and updated on the main page tonight. I will be working on the helsrider as well and then after that the berserkers.
I have put the helsrider unlock off to $21,000.00 and unlocked the Jotunn and a new Hordesman Hero add-ons to the reward selection.
Some pictures to shine up this thread........
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Post by: RiTides
Pictures look great, looking forward to seeing some spikes in those shield / armor sockets
Awesome about unlocking the Jotunn and hero!
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks RiTides!
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Post by: Adder Ant
Awesome stuff.
red box games deserves a big kickstarter for the sculptor is ace.
hope this one ends big!
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Adder Ant! 
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Post by: Yodhrin
*looks at the shield* Ahhhhh! That's what the holes everywhere are for, I was wondering where that was going 
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Post by: tre manor
Update beign posted in about an hour to show piked armor and shields!
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Post by: Schmapdi
They look great!
Tre must just have crazy discipline to sit and sculpt and sculpt and sculpt like mad for weeks on end during these tiny kickstarters he does. It's very impressive!
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Schmapdi!
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Post by: Schmapdi
With all the new KS launching/getting set to launch people need updates to remember this one is still going and cranking out awesome new minis.
Here are some WIP of the beserkers
and the Helsrider mounted champion
6 days to go!
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Post by: tre manor
Totally serious question with no ulterior motive......Would people rather see me focus on running kickstarters with concept art or actual miniatures? Because I do truly wonder if that might work better. Oh and many thanks Schmapdi!
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Post by: caylentor
I think the actual miniatures is a big improvement over other kickstarter projects. I'm not able to back this one right now but I will be looking to get some of them at retail (with some of your other existing figures).
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Post by: Prestor Jon
tre manor wrote:
Totally serious question with no ulterior motive......Would people rather see me focus on running kickstarters with concept art or actual miniatures? Because I do truly wonder if that might work better. Oh and many thanks Schmapdi!
I don't think concept art was needed in the last few KS you've done except for the brigands. You sculpt quickly, the WiPs are helpful and aside from the brigands you were expanding existing factions so people had other models to reference on your website.
Art might help with the secret project since its new but if you have a lot of sculpts for it done already maybe you don't.
That's my take on it.
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Post by: tre manor
Oh yeh the new project is going to be all sculpted before launch. I am going to keep the campaign focused on funding only the stuff I have sculpted at the launch. However there will also be a lot of supporting art assets for the printed components to go with the minis.
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Post by: monkeytroll
Whilst concept art might draw some extra people in at the initial phase of a KS I agree that your sculpting speed more than makes up for the lack of concepts. We see your wips, have a chance to offer feedback, and see the sculpts all during the course of your KS.
I went into this one for the Helsmaidens, concept art for any others probably wouldn't have swayed me, but seeing the Jotun and Berserkers in progress is likely to see me up my pledge.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Art seems redundant since you'll have it all sculpted. But don't you work from concept art anyway?
Maybe after this KS ends you can use the concept art for the "secret" project as a teaser to get people excited before the next KS begins?
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Post by: RiTides
I think concept art can help if there aren't many finished miniatures to show off, which had been somewhat the case here with mostly WIPs. Without art, it's hard for people to guess at the look, and thus be more likely to pledge.
I think a combination could work, but I do prefer seeing sculpts - your work on the Jotunn is what has me pledging here.
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Post by: grefven
@Tre: One thing that bothers me a little bit is your time reference. When you say "I will post it in a few hours," or "I will show it tomorrow," for me that means in a few hours and tomorrow. This has become so common that we refer your statements as "Tre-time". I think it is not a bad idea to show concept art if you cannot keep your time-frame, because then people get an idea. I think it is actually a bad idea not to show a concept art with the promises that you will see the WIP tomorrow, and then nothing until several days later because "something" came in between.
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Post by: tre manor
Yeh my time has been at a premium lately beign dragged this way and that. I am trying my hardest though.
I do nto usually work from Concept art though which is why i never post any. I prefer to let the mini take its own shape most of the time. Sometimes I have a very specific idea in mind and other times I will have just one particular element in mind for a mini and that is where my focus goes.
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Post by: weeble1000
Tre,
I'm my view, your Kickstarters have grown into a watch-me-create-something experience, which isn't bad. It makes your campaigns unique and rewarding.
But it is a little outside of the normal Kickstarter model. Your stretch goals tend to be something of a moving target, the pieces evolve as you work on them, and your update schedule is somewhat organic as it follows your personal workflow.
What you've got is working for a campaign in the range of five dollar figures. Your projects fund and a few stretch goals get unlocked. They tend to deliver in a timely manner and post campaign updates are frequent and substantive. That's all great.
You could certainly tighten up your campaigns, do more pre-launch marketing, and stick a little closer to a format that some backers might be more comfortable with. The two questions that I think are important are A) are you comfortable working like that and B) is it necessary to meet your personal goals?
If the answer to both of those is yes, then I think it might be productive to hire a Kickstarter consultant. That way, you could get some professional advice about how to bump your campaigns to a new level and also take some of the planning/execution burden off of your shoulders.
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Post by: RiTides
I agree weeble, and nice post! I'm happy with this latest campaign, and if it is working for you too Tre, then that's great! These could be good things to keep in mind for launching your not-so-super-secret upcoming project, though
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Post by: tre manor
Oh yes the sooperdoop KS will have as much pre-planning and pre-marketing as I am able to muster. This campaign is doing fine for me. I am sure that there will be the usual final 3 day surge in pledges and as I post more completed WIPs that should help as well. What I was particularly wondering is if people generally prefer a campaign that is based on concept art ( as concept art is easier to create and there fore a faster pay-off marketing wise ) or do they prefer campaign based on the actual product ( which takes longer to create and can have its own snags and bog down the progression of the campaign as we see with mine usually. )
I think my biggest mistake was the multiple " set " pledge level. I intended it for allowing people to pledge for multiple sets of the chosen and to allow people to switch in and out those multiples as new sets were unlocked if they so chose. I think that instead it just became a fire and forget pledge level only which is only valueable when 4 themed sets unlock. Nobody's fault but mine though. 
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Post by: madzerker
Personally I think that you should have more sculpted before you start the campaign to get a good start and then sculpt during the campaign to have stretch goals and keep people excited. You would still be being paid for your time, just working ahead of time to get the rewards later. Also, I am not sure how other people feel so you could maybe ask them, but I would be happy with 1-2 minis in a unit to be sculpted ahead of time to give an idea what we are pledging on, and just the knowledge that the unit will have 3 more that can be sculpted later. This would keep the campaign going faster as well and I know if I like the 1 or 2 minis I am going to like the others since you are so consistent in sculpting your units. I have to agree on the time promises, and I understand that you have had a lot of things going on, but it seemed this campaign just about every time promise you made didn't happen I am excited about these, but I do think you could do 80k kickstarters again in metal and do good.
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Post by: Da Boss
I am much happier with sculpts than with concept art. We've all seen campaigns with awesome concept art that failed to deliver in the final models. With your sculpts I can see exactly what I am getting. I second the idea that it is a good idea to start with something finished and then do your usual "I can't believe how fast he sculpts!" updates as you power through the work. Very excited for your soopah doopah project this year. I am limiting myself to one big kickstarter and that one is definitely going to be it! (also, broke and backed for the Horde Hero and a Jotun. )
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Boos!
I am lookign forward to the soopadoop too..... I am just hoping that I do it right and find the right time to launch. It would be a HUGE mistake to launch and not fund enough product to secure the project's position in the market. I want this to be the next Hordes / Malifaux / Infinity type of range.
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Post by: Mutter
Tre, why in Gods name is there no link to your KS in your signature? O.o
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Post by: Alpharius
Is there only the one Jotunn so far?
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Post by: RiTides
Yes, just one Alpharius. I've put in for one since Tre said you can add $10 to the basic pledge level if you want just the Jotunn . Ends up a bit pricey for one model, but I think it will be worth it!
A few finished sculpts, rather than WIPs, before starting may help, along with clarity on what things are. Wehrkind didn't believe me that the Helsmaidens is a unit of 5, as that info also came out in a KS comment from Tre, but I'm not sure if it's on the main page? 4 for $40 would've been too steep for him, so that 5th model really helps with the value of the ranks/units.
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Post by: Ken Oakley
I'm a huge fan of Tre's work and have been in all of Tre's KS. I also have most of his Red box miniatures. My problem with this KS is it seems like Tre isn't all that interested in it. I realise life has a tendency to get in the way of work but I'm a firm believer in if you make a promise, you follow threw with it.It's called credibility. It's important to build your company around it.
I have been confused from day one on what is happening with this KS. I feel that when you set a plan, you stick with it. When you changed up the mounted mini and the standing mini that goes with it with just the mounted mini you almost lost me. I'm still in it cause I love the miniatues, but just barely.
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Post by: Fugazi
Sculpts > concept art. But as others have said, you need to have more done at or near the beginning of the campaign. Based on the KS comments, it seems like you get a lot of repeat customers, but I suspect you are not getting as many new customers as you might if there were more finished sculpts for newbies to look at.
(Your minis are great, by the way.)
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks yall!
Ken, I know that is what it seems like it truly could not be any more opposite.
I misjudged my real life commitments through the period of the KS with a LOT of things coming up that I just could not put off or set aside. It has been a LONG time since I made a cross country move and I was not as settled in as I thought I was.....Also I launched sooner than I would have liked to to get my foot in the door before all the big hitters started opening up...... but truth be told...... I doubt that I would have fared any better had I launched with all the Helsmaidens, Chosen, Jotunn, and berserkers done and ready for molding. The competition is just simply too much for me right now it seems. And further there does not look to be a break in that for at least the next 3 months at best. I am incredibly thankful for the support I do have and REALLY happy to have what success is there thus far. I have been able to fund the development of new product and pay myself for the sculpting. I have the support and encouragement of long time RBG fans and that alone is reward in and of itself. I have no doubt that we will see the funding of the berserkers and helsrider by the campaign's close and I am going to be working my ass off to make sure that happens. Once I am done with the sculpting from this campaign I will get started working on my next project so that it is ready when the next opportunity to fund a project presents itself.
I made mistakes in setting up the campaign for war gamers rather than role players assuming that people would want multiples of the Chosen or the helsmaidens or berserkers. I think that has had a very negative effect on people's satisfaction with the campaign. I think that if nothing else this campaign has proven to me that armies are not neccessarily the right avenue for my efforts with the RBG lines. Or at least not War Game level armies anyway.
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Post by: Ken Oakley
Thank you Tre. I'm in for this one and the next one as well. I was just having one of those moments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I'm a role player.
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Post by: Schmapdi
tre manor wrote:Thanks yall!
I made mistakes in setting up the campaign for war gamers rather than role players assuming that people would want multiples of the Chosen or the helsmaidens or berserkers. I think that has had a very negative effect on people's satisfaction with the campaign. I think that if nothing else this campaign has proven to me that armies are not neccessarily the right avenue for my efforts with the RBG lines. Or at least not War Game level armies anyway.
I don't think that's true really. And I hope the "secret" project will be similar levels of units sizes (I kinda feel like for a small skirmish game, 3-men-units are a good size, maybe with having the option to bump it up 5-men if you add a leader/standard bearer/exotic weapon user).
But maybe for future projects you can make a rank + corresponding champion for each sort of troop? So a stretch goal would unlock a 5 man Chosen unit and a Chosen champion. That way the wargamers would pick up the unit (and quite possibly the champion too) and the RPGers could just pick up the champion for their characters.
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Post by: madzerker
Please don't give up on us wargamers I don't make 20-30 man units like warhammer but I do make 6-10 man units. If you gave up on them before finishing the njorn I would be very sad, as I have been wanting a full army of these and your Njorn for the last 6 years I am still hoping for some command, cavalry and bowmen for njorn, and whatever you make for helsvakt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For me, while I love your 5 seperate sculpts in a unit, I would be satisfied with 3 sculpts and a champion. (and standards for basic troops). But for me 5 scullpts a unit is even better!
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Post by: tre manor
No worries Madzerker. I am not giving up on the idea of units. I am just scaling back my anticipations of high number units. 5 to 6 man units are just fine with me.
And yes the Njorn will be getting filled out the same as the Helsvakt very soon.
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Post by: madzerker
best news I have heard all day!
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Post by: weeble1000
Schmapdi wrote: I don't think that's true really. And I hope the "secret" project will be similar levels of units sizes (I kinda feel like for a small skirmish game, 3-men-units are a good size, maybe with having the option to bump it up 5-men if you add a leader/standard bearer/exotic weapon user). But maybe for future projects you can make a rank + corresponding champion for each sort of troop? So a stretch goal would unlock a 5 man Chosen unit and a Chosen champion. That way the wargamers would pick up the unit (and quite possibly the champion too) and the RPGers could just pick up the champion for their characters.
Three model units also lets you do starter boxes with at least 3 units and 5-8 models. You can have 6 unique sculpts of the same model type, and that would allow you to have two of the same units with no repeat sculpts. 6 models of one type is usually a fairly large amount in lots of skirmish games. If you are putting 15 models on the table, that's already more than 1/3 of your crew/warband/gang/etc.
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Post by: Da Boss
I love the current RBG model, so if you're looking to expand beyond folk like me then don't listen to this, but I absolutely love the "units of around 10" approach.
I can use the RBG stuff for Roleplaying (it might happen someday okay!), or skirmish gaming (definitely more likely, can use LOTR SBG or Saga (Dwarves as Anglo-Danes, Orcs as Vikings, Goblins as Irish) ) and then I can use RBG models as centerpieces, leaders or front ranks for mass battle games.
That said, I am not a huge fan of the Helsvakt, just the look of them. It's a bit OTT compared to the rest of the RBG line to me, though I understand the influences and so on, and that they are very popular. So I'm not saying don't make them! Just that I am much more into your Goblins, Trolls, Dwarves and Brigands for whatever reason. (I'd love to see you do a Turin-like character- a melancholy hero in that style...awesome)
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Mutter wrote:Tre, why in Gods name is there no link to your KS in your signature? O.o
Not to pile on with the criticism of Tre, but seriously. You realize there is 1 ( one) link to the kickstarter in this entire thread? ( Now there are two.)
I realize that a lot of things come up, and I am a huge fan of Tre's work, but there are just so many easy things that aren't being done, including things that, frankly, are almost inexcusable.
On the main page of the KS, the themed sets includes this info: "The Helsmaidens, 4 armoured female warriors pictured together above." In order to know that there is a 5th Helsmaiden you need to... well, you need to already know it, because no ordinary person is going to find this out. It's not in the updates, but a single comment 4 days ago. Which, because of the crap system for comments that KS has, is now 'below the fold', so to speak.
There still is not a scale photo on the main page... The closest the KS comes is a shot of the Jotunn next to a... chosen? maybe? There is no comparison in size between the male and female figures, or any comparison to outside ranges. This is, again, something that consistently comes up in any Red Box campaign.
Tre, you have some great ideas. Seriously, this WIP of a female bezerker is just aces;
I've worked with other KS campaigns, and would be happy to work with you (Tre), but whether it's me or someone else you really need some organizational help here.
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Post by: RiTides
I do think those are fair criticisms, and I would just add that it is not timing with the Kickstarter that is the problem - there are always other Kickstarters, and now is actually a decent window ( imo).
Rather, a lot of (very fixable!) things that have been noted before are on display again here. As mentioned, some very important missing info (5th Helsmaiden!) moving targets of stretch goals and when things will be done, and I think most of all for this particular campaign, very few completed sculpts to oooh and aaah over. The Chosen were close to complete, but with only holes for spikes during most of the campaign they were hard to visualize, even though they were mostly done. And when you asked about art versus sculpts - for your stretch goals, there's actually neither one, just text! (Excepting the horse WIP)
All this is super easy to fix, and maybe just getting someone to maintain and update the Kickstarter page for you would be a small but worthwhile investment in the future. You've got so many fans, I'm sure someone would be willing to do it - especially if they could call you to figure out what's what and communicate it to backers much faster. I'm sure we would all appreciate it
One more quick example that comes to mind here - Jotunn pricing and how to add it! That info took forever to come out. Obviously I'm paying attention and was able to make my pledge match it (adding $10 to the base level pledge to just get a Jotunn by itself, or adding $18 to get it as an add-on for any other pledge). But this is pretty basic info, and it needs to come out sooner and you need to stick to it!
I'm very stoked about this campaign actually, but I hope this is helpful. A lot of us have pointed these kinds of things out here and previously, and imo if you just need to keep your head in sculpting land, get a lackey to do all this for you  . Maybe even for free or just for figures, if you can find the right fan! Philip Sibbering does a ton of page maintenance / Kickstarter update stuff for Ed Fortae of Trollforged, and I know he's not charging much or maybe even anything for it, just getting a lot of access to the whole process behind the scenes (which is necessary so that he can pass along that info on behalf of Ed, so Ed doesn't have to worry about it!).
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Post by: tre manor
Thank you guys for putting a finer head on the issues that I am consistently overlooking. I honestly thought I had updated the info about the 5th helsmaiden on the front page....it would nto be the first time I thought that I had hit the save button and had actually not done so. I am fixing that now and I am also goign to go and buy a couple of figures to use s scale reference tonight. You gusy are right I either get it right or stop complaining.
Give me an hour or so and i will have the scale pics up.
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Post by: RiTides
Awesome Tre, cheers!
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Post by: Wehrkind
I second Buzzsaw's and RiTides comments. I actually decided not to back this, as 10$ per helsmaiden was too much for models I didn't have a plan for. 8$ per, that's a bit better. I may be a bit tighter with money of late than most folks, but uncertainty makes me even less inclined to spend.
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Post by: tre manor
Could nto get the figures for reference as both the local GW was closed AND the LGS. I will try again tomorrow morning
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Post by: Buzzsaw
In the interim, I noticed that one of your backers named JEVR put a link to his own comparison in your comments section (2 days ago) here.
I'll look through the Dakka threads, I'm sure I have seen some Dakkites put up similar comparisons.
I noticed that Dakka's own Azazelx' blog has a number of scale comparisons for Red Box games figures here. You might want to talk to him about using some of his photos, or arraigning some others.
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Post by: RiTides
That's a nice pic Buzzsaw! I'm not too fussed about comparison pics now actually, but maybe that's because I think I know your range. But it would help convey the size of the Jotunn, for instance, particularly if you use the same hapless fig in every comparison shot (like a generic Empire trooper - not that the Empire will be around much longer ).
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Buzzsaw!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok got a box of space marines.....nwo to get the pics taken.
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Post by: RiTides
The stretch goal adjustment is awesome, and seeing a space marine next to yours is going to make the SM look really comical but will be very useful.
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Post by: tre manor
now that I have put a SM together I see why people prefer plastic to metal. I actually really enjoyed it.
Also being this is the first time I have put one together I realized something......My figures are about the same size as SM's only without the comicly oversized heads. makes me wonder.....
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Post by: corgan
This is the pic from Update 19
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Post by: Fabio Bile
Heading into the last 24 hours and the berserkers are within reach. Here's new WIP shots of both them and the mounted champion:
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Post by: Trodax
I'm ridiculously excited about those berserkers, they look fantastic! Mounted champion is pretty damn epic too. Only 16 hours left now! Automatically Appended Next Post: Awesomely enough an anonymous fan has made a contribution which has unlocked the berserkers ( details in update #23). A couple of new pledge levels have also been added (for three themed sets, and for one of everything). In addition, the Hordesman captain in the image below has been made available as an $8 add-on. With only 7 hours remaining, now is certainly the time to check this campaign out!
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Post by: Fabio Bile
A last bump as the campaign goes into its final hours. Anyone wants to get in, better do it quick.
We might just make it to unlocking a rank of Craven (archers).
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Post by: Schmapdi
Just noticed in comments Tre said Craven are unlocked (since they are very close to unlocked he wanted to give people time to add them to their pledge if they wanted).
99 minutes to go!
Craven look like this btw:
Note that these aren't the new Craven. But I imagine the new set will look more or less like these. (and nice little 3-man units like the Craven are exactly what I hope to see a lot of in his future project).
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Post by: Trodax
I'm definitely in for some more Craven, the existing ones are really cool.
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Post by: RiTides
What an insane finish. Did this do like 6-7k in the last several hours?
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Post by: tre manor
Yep. it did 2k in the last hour.
I learned something here. If I put more work into the campaign on the front end I get more out of it.
Timing will always be an issue but it is less of an issue than I typically think it is. I will be pre-marketing my next campaign by at least a month and I will DEFINITELY launch my next campaign in May.
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Post by: Alpharius
tre manor wrote: Yep. it did 2k in the last hour.
I learned something here. If I put more work into the campaign on the front end I get more out of it.
Timing will always be an issue but it is less of an issue than I typically think it is. I will be pre-marketing my next campaign by at least a month and I will DEFINITELY launch my next campaign in May.
By "Next Campaign in May" you mean the super-not-so-secret game system focused one, right?
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Post by: tre manor
Most likely yes.
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Post by: tre manor
i am just trying to figure out how far to go with the first KS. Teh rules are not yet finished but I plan to be play testign them this month. They will NOT be ready for print yet but at the very least I will have the fluff well established and the base plate rules in place.
I have noticed a few new products recently debuted at Adepticon that are eerily similar so I want to try to get out in front of those.
I will be postign a new thread here at Dakka which will act as the new pre-marketing thread for the project. I feel like if I sit on it any longer I will miss the opportunity.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Maybe just offer a .pdf of beta rules for a $1 pledge reward/ part of the package for bigger pledges .
Are you still planning on only launching 2-4 of the (what was it, 6 total?) armies.
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Post by: Mymearan
A q Tre, I see that you have some amazing dwarves on Hasslefree, are these only available from them? Can't seem to find them on your website.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Hi Tre some simple questions hope you don't mind them.
I don't do KS, I mean in all these years of KS I only backed one and I'm not a fan of the waiting and all that. So I did not back yours, sorry for that... if there's a sculptor that deserves my patronage your one of them.
So for the boring questions...
1. Scale. Hey these are far bigger than your usual stuff correct? For me its a plus since I really want a big regiment of barbarians to put against my GW goblins and I don't want them smaller than the gobbos.
2. Are the beserkers bigger scale wise than the chosen?
3. Price point they are good if you want to have only 5 but if you want to scale up for regiments of say 30 its a bit expensive any idea or plans for deals of buying multiples? I think you with this KS were aiming for the mass battles market right?
4. The most important question is obviously when do you intend to put them up on your store so non KS fans can buy the goods?
General comments, scale is always the damn subject on the table and I think you can get away with rpg markets or even LOTR, but for mass battle games the scale needs to be as these last big boys and gals you did. Your proportions are the best outhere they just need to be heroic enough to deal with mainstream ranges for the big games. You may say, Navarro STFU its my babies and Im happy with the scale! and I will respect that... but just saying
Oh of course congrats for the KS results, glad you reached your goals.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
 NAVARRO wrote:Hi Tre some simple questions hope you don't mind them.
I don't do KS, I mean in all these years of KS I only backed one and I'm not a fan of the waiting and all that. So I did not back yours, sorry for that... if there's a sculptor that deserves my patronage your one of them.
So for the boring questions...
1. Scale. Hey these are far bigger than your usual stuff correct? For me its a plus since I really want a big regiment of barbarians to put against my GW goblins and I don't want them smaller than the gobbos.
2. Are the beserkers bigger scale wise than the chosen?
3. Price point they are good if you want to have only 5 but if you want to scale up for regiments of say 30 its a bit expensive any idea or plans for deals of buying multiples? I think you with this KS were aiming for the mass battles market right?
4. The most important question is obviously when do you intend to put them up on your store so non KS fans can buy the goods?
General comments, scale is always the damn subject on the table and I think you can get away with rpg markets or even LOTR, but for mass battle games the scale needs to be as these last big boys and gals you did. Your proportions are the best outhere they just need to be heroic enough to deal with mainstream ranges for the big games. You may say, Navarro STFU its my babies and Im happy with the scale! and I will respect that... but just saying
Oh of course congrats for the KS results, glad you reached your goals.
Scale shot from the KS that was posted earlier in the thread:
Berserkers should be the same size as the Chosen just with no armor and plenty of muscle.
Kickstarter fulfillment should happen in May and Tre has been on time for the last few RBG KS he's run so if the KS ships in May that should have the models up in his webstore for retail in June.
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Post by: tre manor
No worries Navarro.!
Yes the berserkers are equally scaled with the Chosen. In reality most of my human figures are abotu the same size. There are variances in girth and height based on the characters themselves. Some of the Aenglish for example are smaller than others just because i try to make some variation but most of the warriors are the same general size.
The elves and Dwarves and goblins are noticeably smaller than those of most contemporary ranges and this won;t change. I just liek it that way.
I was indeed trying to court the war gamers with this campaign but I think I have learned that for the most part the RBG fans are skirmish gamers and role players first and foremost. This has me rethinking things a bit more. I am not opposed to going after the mass battle crowd but I think I will HAVE to use plastic to make this happen. I prefer metal but I am just nto sure I can afford to price the figures low enough to be able to afford to make the figure affordable enough for building mass battle units. :(
and yes these will be available throguh the store very soon.
Maybe just offer a .pdf of beta rules for a $1 pledge reward/ part of the package for bigger pledges .
Are you still planning on only launching 2-4 of the (what was it, 6 total?) armies.
Well without going in to too much detail in this thread ( I want to try to keep it all in one thread if possible. ) I am taking a slightly different route with the composition of the game. There will be factions, but they are nto as rigid as what you might find in other games. The initial offering will offer the components needed to build a wide variety of war bands. The intent is that the players are supposed to write their own stories through the composition of their war bands. There are over arching powers within the world that have definitive goals and agendas but the war bands that at play between these powers may or may not neccessarily be their " faction ".
I know that seems cryptic...... Think of it this way. The factions themselves have internecine power struggles where members of high standing vie for power by undermining their greaters or rivals or by serving their greaters or rivals. This will see members of the same faction doing battle with each other almost as often as not. Other times you will see two totally different factions have similarly aligned goals which will allow them to cross populate their war band lists.
Example; House A is loyal to the God King of the city state of blah blah but the second son of the Prime Patriarch of House A is secretly a cultist of the Death God which makes him an enemy of the state. So.......FIGHT!!!!
Now when player A plays as the Loyalists they can draw from the House Guard, mercenaries, and slaves. Choosing to build a powerful but somewhat restricted list by drawing options from the House Guard ONLY. They are all loyal to each other and to the same goal so they work better together and will by extension pass morale tests and psyche tests better and will have access to higher level tactics abilities and actions as a group. Player B plays as the Cultist and is able to draw from house guard ( to a very limited degree) , mercenaries, slaves, and cultists. The Cultist player has a broader range of possibilities but none of them work together as well as those from a single " faction " would / do. Now if Player B CAN draw only from Cultist lists and have "stronger" list for it but it is not a rigidly demanded neccessity. Player B Chooses to have a broader variety of troops for the benefits each one provides rather than limiting their tactics strictly to the Cultist's abilities.
So when I offer a set of Barbarians, a set of Imperials, a set of Cultists, a set of Mutants, a set of undead, a set of amazons, and a set of Lizardmen. Most of those sets will be able to work together in the same list ( some of them will have more drastic restrictions working with specific other groups ). The lynch pics of the warbands will be the " masters " these are the deicidign factors of which elements a war band can be built and how those different elements will work together.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Thanks for the answers guys
Tre Im in for a big unit of these fellas I think they will look great as chaos marauders and the scale is just perfect. They remind me of the old drunes from rackham and since I have 6 on horses already I will have my marauders all sorted with your latest project.
Yes its not going to be cheap but I guess I will only do one unit.
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Post by: Mymearan
Anyone know about my question?
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Post by: madzerker
I believe those were Tre's first round of sculpts that he decided were too large for what he wanted. (to my chagrin, I that they were absolutely perfect ) So I believe he sold the molds to Hasslefree, so I doubt that he is still selling them as they belong to Hasslefree now. The rest of his dwarves are a little bit smaller then those, so they would match style wise, just not quite sizewise. You could use them as heroes and are larger abstractly, or maybe a different race of dwarf. I would love for him to do more dwarves in that scale but he just confirmed in this thread that won't happen.
If I am wrong about anythng Tre, please correct me
Automatically Appended Next Post: But Mymearan, if you see the other models that aren't dwarves on Hasslefree site of Tre's, I would suggest getting them. They are models that Tre discontinued, but are still awesome and scale with his current stuff just fine.
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Madzerker. Sorry I missed your question previously Mymearan
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Post by: Mymearan
Thanks! I guess I'll just have to buy all the dwarves then
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Post by: tre manor
Sounds great to me!
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Post by: Azazelx
tre manor wrote:
I made mistakes in setting up the campaign for war gamers rather than role players assuming that people would want multiples of the Chosen or the helsmaidens or berserkers. I think that has had a very negative effect on people's satisfaction with the campaign. I think that if nothing else this campaign has proven to me that armies are not neccessarily the right avenue for my efforts with the RBG lines. Or at least not War Game level armies anyway.
(and later)
I was indeed trying to court the war gamers with this campaign but I think I have learned that for the most part the RBG fans are skirmish gamers and role players first and foremost. This has me rethinking things a bit more. I am not opposed to going after the mass battle crowd but I think I will HAVE to use plastic to make this happen. I prefer metal but I am just nto sure I can afford to price the figures low enough to be able to afford to make the figure affordable enough for building mass battle units. :(
Tre' - with figures priced at $10-15 each, it's not really a campaign at a price point for wargamers. It's not about which games your supports like and play, but the overall costs to build units at these prices. While I love your figures, and I might be willing to pay the $10-15 for a few character models, but $10 a pop (or $8 at the higher levels, if you're in the US) just isn't going to happen for rank and file. It's more than inflated GW rank and file metal prices off eBay. $160-200 for a unit of 20 guys? A wargame army at those prices? Not happening. It's expensive even for a Necromunda/Mordheim/Blood Bowl team's number worth of models (in metal). With them likely to be more expensive at retail... you'll have a lot of RBG fans on board for the game, but it's not going to go much bigger or be any threat to Infinity, Malifaux, et al...
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Post by: tre manor
I totally get that. That is why I set up the Vanguard pledge level to allow peopel to get each figure at a deeper discount $6.00 each per figure. Teh idea was increase the pledge level once more units were unlocked to allow an incrementally increasing discount per figure based on sales volume.......The demand just did not materialize.
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Post by: Azazelx
I understand. What I'm saying is that even $6 per R&F is still quite expensive when you're building armies made of units of 20+ figures. Especially if these are KS prices and the retail will jump later. It's just not feasible for anyone outside of your most devoted fans.
Your price structure will work for smaller skirmish games of 10-20, then a slow build of more, but it's simply not large-scale wargamer friendly. If it was, I'd probably be buying a couple hundred bucks worth each month or so - and I'm not trying to belittle you in any way, either.
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Post by: caylentor
How large a scale are you planning for it to be?
If you want something with a couple of hundred miniatures each side, you're looking at either historical games or Mantic. For historical the sweet spot is about 50p (about $0.75) per infantry miniature in plastic, Mantic are similar depending on the range and material.
GW obviously charges much more but they've been struggling to shift their mass battle game for years.
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Post by: Azazelx
Full metal armies of 100+ models are doable for those manufacturers that sell each model in the $2-4 price range (or unit deals that break down to those prices). That doesn't seem to be in the range that Tre' can afford to sell his models for - even with KS pricing let alone at retail - which places large scale armies out of the reach of all but the most dedicated RBG fans. I'd love to build a KoW army made mostly of Helsvakt (among others) but it's just not realistic.
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Post by: RiTides
 Azazelx wrote:I understand. What I'm saying is that even $6 per R&F is still quite expensive when you're building armies made of units of 20+ figures. Especially if these are KS prices and the retail will jump later. It's just not feasible for anyone outside of your most devoted fans.
Your price structure will work for smaller skirmish games of 10-20, then a slow build of more, but it's simply not large-scale wargamer friendly. If it was, I'd probably be buying a couple hundred bucks worth each month or so - and I'm not trying to belittle you in any way, either.
This is actually a good point, and well worth considering as you are designing the game as we speak! 20 models at most per side would be ideal, imo, with the average being much lower, perhaps around 10. Brushfire had this issue where the rules wanted the armies to be big, but metal minis just cannot compete with plastic for rank and file... Infinity does just fine with metal, but everything is a character, and you almost always only field 10 models or less - only oddball or some hardcore lists have more, but everyone I've seen locally uses a single grouping of 10 models. That is your sweet spot, imo
You'll also find that gamers like to "buy the faction" and have options to swap in and out, so if the game is centered around 10 or so models, most gamers will end up buying at least 30 over time. But they're much more likely to buy in if they can play a game with 10, and then buy more options later. Infinity has mastered this model, I think you would do very well to emulate their business model but on the fantasy stage!
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Post by: Azazelx
Actually, there are good quality metal fantasy figure ranges in an affordable price range for unit and army building, (not just historicals) but I'd rather not go much further into that in Tre's thread.
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Post by: RiTides
That's fair, but if we're talking about a game like Infinity, Tre's price point is right on target... people will only pay that if you have some of the best models in the world, but gladly do for Infinity. I think Tre could easily tap that market, but on the fantasy side... particularly with 9th edition coming to put an end to the warhammer fantasy world as we know it.
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Post by: Azazelx
Sure. That's the point I've been making - For a skirmish-sized game of 10-20 figures - 30 on the outside, Tre's prices would work. For "mass battle" games and the like, RBG's prices won't work but there are other metals out there that still work price-wise for R&F. It doesn't mean that RBG fans are only roleplayers or skirmish players though - far from it!
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Post by: Grimstonefire
I totally don't mean this in a critical way, just a genuine observation/ question out of curiosity. I'm wondering why most of your models start off with almost identically posed legs?
I'd like to see some with legs spaced closer together, or running/ about to jump etc.
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Post by: tre manor
Hey grimstonefire! it is just a happy medium kind of posture that works for action and rest equally as well. They could be at the end of thier motion or at the beginning. Plus I just like it.
It also makes for a more stable figure as well during the sculpting process. i will try to get mor evaried posing in play though.
And I never take criticism as abuse or offense.
Same goes for your opinions and advice Azazel. I know you onyl want to help!
The intention was to allow the price per model to drop as the funding grew. Teh way I had planned the price woudl have come down to $4 per model by the time the campaign concluded if the demand was sufficient. I needed to be able to afford to sell cheaper per figure by sellign more copies per figure. I did not want to set the funding goal high at the out set as I wanted to get over the first goal and onto the next. I had assumed that people wanted to build armies out of these rather than just buy the singular units.
I AM checking in to plastic production and I am very close to making the plunge and having a test tool made.
I am thinking that my goblins and undead and Aenglish woudl especially benefit from plastic production as all three coudl easily be horde products. Aenglish for pseudo historical wargaming, Undead for wargaming and for role playing, and the same for the goblins.
I am also working on modular terrain pieces which woudl be cross compatible with Dwarven Forge covering themes they have not explored yet.
I am also getting the rules and art for the rules book underway at long last. the rules are most likely goign to cover Infinity sized games but they are a work in progress.
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Post by: RiTides
I think sticking to metal and your price point is fine - it's what you know well and do best, and is suitable for characters, just like Infinity. I'd like to see you develop the "secret" project more and sculpt more amazing figures rather than investigate plastic again (just imo, of course, others may differ).
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Post by: tre manor
Well being flatly honest Plastic is goign to be the only way to survive in the industry in a short matter of time.
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Post by: weeble1000
tre manor wrote:Well being flatly honest Plastic is goign to be the only way to survive in the industry in a short matter of time.
I don't think that's true Tre. Plenty of companies are doing perfectly well with entirely metal product lines. Corvus Belli, of course, is a prime example, but there are plenty of others. The Wolsung range is primarily metal, and the miniatures are about 10 bucks each. Lots of historicals are primarily produced in metal. Otherworld Miniatures is almost entirely metal, Hasslefree is almost entirely metal, Lead Adventure is entirely metal, Crooked Dice is entirely metal, Knight Models is entirely metal. Reaper is still primarily metal. Freebooter Miniatures is entirely metal. The list is rather long. Metal is fine for character models. If you have a skirmish game in which you don't expect to have many or any duplicates, metal is great. Metal is also easy for small companies to produce. The costs of plastic production are prohibitive for a great deal of small manufacturers. For the cost of a single plastic injection mold you can capitalize a brand new spin casting setup. Today, white metal is less than a dollar an ounce. Mold blanks are typically less than twenty dollars. A vulcanized rubber mold will be good for hundreds of spins. With ten grand a new company can supply itself with all of the equipment and materials necessary to produce dozens of molds and thousands of individual models. If you don't want to spin cast in house these services can be contracted out for a fraction of the cost of setting up plastic injection molding. I don't think metal is going away anytime soon. At the very least, boutique manufacturers will be using metal unless and until setup costs for plastic injection molding come down far more dramatically than they already have. There's also a pretty good choke point in plastic injection manufacturing. How many manufacturers are capable of doing it for wargaming scale miniatures at an acceptable level of quality and are willing to do the kind of small production runs this industry demands? There are already lots of companies producing plastic wargaming miniatures. It hasn't killed the market for metal miniatures. For plastic to kill the market for metal I think the costs of production will simply have to drop, and they may if manufacturing becomes more competitive. But how much can the costs realistically come down? I honestly don't know. I have priced out spin casting metal, so I have a decent idea about the costs involved. Contract rates can only drop so far because Tin is a commodity. You've got to pay for the alloy, the mold, the labor, and other associated costs such as energy, facility costs, etc. You have variability in most of those costs aside from raw materials. Tin just costs what it does, and you don't get much of a price break from volume purchasing. That said, you can also have an entire spin casting setup housed in a small garage and a trained money can operate a spin casting machine. What are the material costs associated with tooling a plastic injection mold, what sort of labor is involved, what sort of training do you need, how much does the machinery cost, and what sort of space do you need to operate it? In short, how much more democratized is plastic injection going to become? My wild, shot-in-the-dark guess is that until you can get a 200 shot production run down to about $2000, spin cast metal is going to occupy a healthy slice of the market.
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Post by: madzerker
Personally I hope metal doesn't go away anytime soon. I like resin most of the time, but it is too fragile for smaller stuff. I hate plastic most of the time, models just don't have the detail in it and I abhore restic!
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Post by: Prestor Jon
I'm certainly far from an expert in the matter but given that most of Tre's RBG minis are single piece casts would using "boardgame plastic" be an option? I don't know what the difference is between HIPs and Restic/PVC and boardgame plastic etc. but that struck me as an interesting option.
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Post by: Alpharius
I don't think "boardgame plastic" (PVC) is good enough to cast and hold all the details that Tre puts into his work...
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Post by: tre manor
All great points Weeble.
I am not saying that metal is goign away any time soon btu peopel are putting more money in to new plastic products than they are new metal products. Every new plastic product KS whittles the value of minis down that much more. Add to that the fact there is a new big box of plastics KS every other month and the situation is that much worse.
I know that metal is nto goign anywhere soon but looking at the trends in the larger companies is the best way to gauge where the community's interests will be goign in the future.
As for who is stickign with metal and who is going plastic. I am certain beyond any doubt that all major companies are looking to plastic where possible.
As for whether my current range will work with PVC or not..... I really don;t know. I am being informed that the materials have come a LONG way in a relatively short period of time.
I think the best thing to do is to design for the medium and in doign so you can get some great results.
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Post by: RiTides
I don't think you're competing with big box plastic campaigns... you've got a whole different level of quality, and also inexperience with plastic... I really hope you stick to metal! Unless you can partner with an expert, but going it alone, you will have more success on your current path of making sculpts that can be cast in metal, than braving the learning curve of sculpting for plastic, not to mention having those plastics produced!
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Post by: tre manor
Well I am actually competing with those big box projects. How many people do you think did NOT contribute to the Monolith's Conan in favor of my most recent project? How many people did not contribute to the Blood Rage project in favour of mine? There certainly were a few and they are GREATLY appreciated, but the harsh reality is that there were not enough to put me in a position to compete with the market share of those games. Market share is the life's blood of any company and product line. Now CMoN has another KS launching in April and then another in May. And then most likely another in June. And that is JUST CMoN! There ar enew companies entering the arena every month. The people who buy in to those campaigns are often the very same people who buy my miniatures as well. And while my product may occupy a different strata of quality in the minds of those supporters they are still beholden to the extent of their disposable income and the forced urgency of KS and the artificial impetus of " Limited edition " freebies or add-ons.
True I can afford to continue as I have while still competing with these big box projects but I doubt that I will be able to grow the way that I want to / NEED to in order to actually gain market share and make something special out of RBG. I really do not want to be a garage business forever. I want to put the RBG brand on par with Privateer Press and Wyrd. I want a snazzy web site, a game, cards, boxed sets, the whole thing. And I can do it IF I change my tactics and have the support of the audience.
As for plastics........Adam Poots had precious little idea what he was doing when he launched KD Monster. Believe it or not. MOST of his experience has come since makign the change to hard plastic. In fact Poots did nto even plan for plastic to begin with, and what experiecne he did have with plastic was in PVC rather than ABS. Same goes for CMoN. Wyrd did not know what they were doign at first either. These companies outsourced the production to a firm with experience and then learned as they went. In Wyrd's particular case they literally just handed over the entire process to outside studios. From concept to production.
I have done a LOT of research into plastics. I have had lengthy conversations with the actual producers of the molds and casting of plastci and have had a lto of conversations with artists who have worked toward plastic products. In so far as i am informed there have been some very significant strides made in mold production and in plastics recipes. I understand the methods of manufacture and I also understand the limitatiosn there of. If I aim at plastic production I will be avoiding practices in my sculpting that woudl not work for plastic production.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The thing with Monolith's Conan and CMON's Blood Rage is they are full games in a box,
(and Monolith also has the pull of the Conan name that pulled in a lot of first time KS backers who... based on looking at backer profiles... who may well not be gamers of any sort, just those keen on anything Conan)
so while there is some cross over with mini game buyers the majority of the backers are people like those on BGG who would never have backed your project
so while plastic (and more importantly the ability to give free stuff to backers) is important the 'everything in the box' factor is a big one too
Kingdom Death/CMON/Wyrd certainly learned about plastic production as they went, but they had solid foundations to build on,
KD with their LE resins that sold out whenever they were offered, then changed hands for crazy money on ebay, CMON with their webstore/distribution business and Wyrd with a pretty successful well distributed game in Malifaux
Just look at Mantic they tried a different manufactuer for their HIPs Goblins as Renendra was to busy/too expensive and ended basically a mess (that I bet would have come close to sinking them if it had been their first release)
so while looking into plastic production for your stuff is no bad thing, thinking of it the only solution needed is very risky
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Post by: tre manor
Oh no I am not thinking it is the one and only backet into which to place all of my eggs. I am just aware that it does present certain advantages that can mean the difference between success or failure. And believe me I have tried getting RBG into distribution and I kid you not, I do nto even get the time of day. Never have. I have had offers from distributors to essentially buy RBG from me for a fraction of the value and then pay me as a sculptor to continue growing the line for them but I have refused these " offers ".
And thanks for keepign that link nd image as a Sig. An example I should be following.
Plastic production will allow me to price my product competitively and box a lto of stuff together. I am thinking something similar to CMoN's Wrath of Kings here or Wyrd's Malifaux sets.
One thing I want to be sure everyone understands. i am not trying to make a quick buck here, I am trying to survive and thrive in a super crowded market.
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Post by: Taarnak
tre manor wrote:I have had offers from distributors to essentially buy RBG from me for a fraction of the value and then pay me as a sculptor to continue growing the line for them but I have refused these " offers ".
Wow, the is one of the biggest donkey-cave moves I've heard of in awhile.
Re: Plastics for RBG. I think iy could be a good move, if you are careful about it.
People still hate on PVC but the latest Zombicide miniatures and the Wrath of Kings miniatures all look pretty damn good, so it shouldn't be written off entirely.
~Eric
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, your talent combined with a fun game system will do that, I'd think!
I'm looking forward to The Secret Project, soon to launch (maybe!), so I can send lots of money your way!
As mentioned earlier, an 'Infinity' style of game (10 to 20 models MAX, with the usual being 10) in metal can absolutely survive - and thrive - today!
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Post by: tre manor
Yes.......secret project is launching soon. I am REALLY chomping at the bit to get it underway!
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Post by: madzerker
I am not sure, but one thing that might be the difference of you really taking off might be just having a game. The examples you sited all had games. It might be where if you had a game, you would be selling tons of metal minis like Infinity or warmachine was. On the other note, maybe having a game and going to plastic might even be more successful, I am not sure. I use your stuff for a generic system I like to use, and roleplaying. I think most people don't use generic systems (which I can't understand because I get to use all the cool models from different companies and ignore the crap that I don't like )
What ever you do, I hope you are successful because besides liking your product a lot, you are my favorite person in the industry for your personality and ethics, even your flaws like typing too fast make me smile
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Post by: tre manor
Thansk MDazerker.
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Post by: Mymearan
I would love a skirmish game with your minis. I consider your designs and sculpting to be some of the best in the business, so you have what it takes to succeed.
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Post by: Azazelx
I'd like to see you build a little extra into your projects to slowly (or quickly) get enough together to buy a metal casting setup of your own. Once you control the means of production yourself, you could theoretically drop the price to Old Glory/RPE retail price levels, which in turn would allow the building of full-sized armies. Neither of those companies have games, either - but both offer army-friendly pricing. Even Fitz' stuff is sold online by retailers at $30 for a unit of 10. Which means he's making enough on them to sell at wholesale for less than that... lower unit price but a higher turnover, more of your figures out there so more people see them... increasing demand... you know how it all works.
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Post by: Gallahad
For what it is worth, the PVC stuff I got from Wrath of Kings is phenomenal in the trifecta of quality/detail of cast, ease of use, and cost.
I really love your sculpts, but I own zero of your minis. For me it has mostly been about price, I don't think it is unreasonable, but there are lots of other minis that are higher up the list due to being a better proposition on my personal trifecta metric mentioned above.
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Post by: greywulf
Not to add to the negativity or to make RBG's struggle seem more futile but the 2 main reasons I didn't back the latest project are the following.
#1 International currency valuation. The Canadian $ value is dropping absurdly. I believe the Euro is in a similar situation. This is of course tied to artificial, 'perceived' valuations and nothing that makes any logical sense, and nothing that anyone or anything other than a government has any power to influence. For RBG, I don't know what percentage of your customer base comes from these areas but I have no doubt this reality has some impact. Unless someone has a better I guess the only recourse for RBG would be to start a letter-writing campaign to your politicians demanding fairer systems of international currency valuation. Im guessing that's not gonna happen though, but where this thread reflects that even Americans have issues with price, as a web-based company, currency valuation is something you need to be aware of.
#2 I'm a painter, so I love the precision, character, and realism/realistic proportions of Tre's figures over many other offerings. However, I prefer females 90% of the time. And the campaigns have rarely involved many female figures. Certainly not enough that it's worth paying the postage for. For example, the last campaign had only a single unit. My recommendation: do a lot more females. Despite the currency issue I plan to pledge for your Amazon faction in the next campaign, but I guess we'll have to see how things play out.
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Post by: tre manor
it all comes down to price. Plastic, once the tools are paid for and the minimums settled, is FAR less expensive to produce and sell and ship than metal.
I will be setting up my own casting soon I hope. It really depends on whether or not i am able to set up a facility for it. Right now i am renting and I very seriously doubt my land lord would allow me to cast molten metal in their garage.
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Post by: Da Boss
I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the industry to comment except to say that I am really excited for the big project and think that if you need to take a little time to make it completely awesome out of the gate, then do it. I want to see it do spectacularly well
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks Boos!
And that is exactly my goal. I think I can launch it properly in the next few months. I want to have a test run made in plastic first before i start goign all in for that mode of production. It means more money out of my pocket and a slightly longer lead time ont he campaign. But it also means I will know exactly what i am offering and so will everyone else.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Tre, if your landlord won't, my sister in law has a place over on the east side of Greenville (Ravenwood I think is the development name) and she would probably be down with casting in the garage. Her sister certainly has a lot of experience putting up with my casting business, which started in an apartment bathroom
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Post by: tre manor
.....do what now?? Are you in Greenville Wehrkind?
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Post by: RiTides
I think he was saying he has relatives there . I'm frequently down that way to visit family, too!
I would feel much more confident about plastic production if you are able to have a test done, like you mentioned above. Then you'd get to try out the process and not be caught off guard - like Kingdom Death certainly was, at least regarding lead time! The results (pictures) so far have certainly been impressive, though.
tre manor wrote: How many people do you think did NOT contribute to the Monolith's Conan in favor of my most recent project? How many people did not contribute to the Blood Rage project in favour of mine? There certainly were a few and they are GREATLY appreciated, but the harsh reality is that there were not enough to put me in a position to compete with the market share of those games.
I did but you make a fair point, and I certainly would love to see RBG grow!
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Post by: Wehrkind
My wife's sister lets a house there; she moved to FL a few years back. I am sadly still tied to Northern VA for a few more years. So close, but so far from RiTides's curly haired embrace.
If the wife and I do make it down to visit (we love that town) I will be sure to drop you a line for lunch!
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Post by: tre manor
Yeh man do that! You too RiTides!
Thanks for backing RiTides!
And yes a test is a must for me. I have been given fairly reliable advice on it but I do prefer having first hand knowledge if possible.
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Post by: Alpharius
I've got to agree - I absolutely loved the 3 years I spent in Greenville South Carolina.
Go check out the Borderlands game store!
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Post by: tre manor
have done so. Twice. They were really busy though. I was wanting to talk to the Honcho about maybe selling RBG in the store but never got the chance as I did not want to interrupt.
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Post by: Alpharius
Go by on one of their slow days (not a Wednesday or a Saturday, I'd guess) and go during the slow hours too - right around opening or maybe around 2pm.
Also, absolutely go here:
http://www.lieuschinesebistro.com/index.html
Some of the best Chinese I've had in the USA - I really miss that place still!
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Post by: Wehrkind
And don't forget to go to the zoo and see the scatophillic elephants. It is really... something. I think they do it just to mess with the people watching them.
Damn, now I want to visit SC this summer. The little sprog will love the zoo and the park, and I want to try that chinese place! (There is about zero decent Chinese food in NoVA.)
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Post by: RiTides
Just a note for reference that I've moved this to Dakka Discussions since it is a finished KS thread (Tre, feel free to start updating your "sneak peak" thread in N&R for news on your upcoming project, or to start a new thread if you prefer).
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Post by: Alpharius
Wehrkind wrote:And don't forget to go to the zoo and see the scatophillic elephants. It is really... something. I think they do it just to mess with the people watching them.
Damn, now I want to visit SC this summer. The little sprog will love the zoo and the park, and I want to try that chinese place! (There is about zero decent Chinese food in NoVA.)
Good call on the Zoo and Cleveland Park - we spent a ton of time there with my kids!
On topic here - I think a RBG "Game" will help drive sales too, no matter what material format you ultimately decide to go with.
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